Reptile Fight Club - Inbreeding in Reptiles

Episode Date: December 19, 2021

In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the topic of inbreeding in reptiles. Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

All right, welcome to another edition of Reptile. I'm your host, Justin Julander. And with me, as always, is Chuck Poland. Poland. All right. Why are you talking like that? Sorry, we missed a week. Old Dr. J got the COVID.

So, yeah, I guess my neighbor couldn't be bothered to wear a mask when she was sick. Dr. Delta. Good times, good times. Yeah, I was not happy about that. So we went to a funeral, sat by our friend that lives in the neighborhood. And she was sick and she didn't wear a mask. And she thought it was just a cold in the time of COVID. It's never just a cold when it's COVID season.

And both Heidi and I were wearing masks. Both of us got it. And now my daughter has it. And it's not very fun. How's your daughter doing she's you know having body aches not not having fun coughing a bit i coughed a lot had a little bit of a fever um but that was you know a couple couple nights of coughing um but i'm back in the saddle again i think uh you know still a little off but today is the best i felt in a

long time so yeah um yeah glad i was vaccinated for sure with that but yeah it's good to be back i i missed a podcast last night uh they invited me to come on uh snakes and stogies uh herpetoculture network guys justin and phil um i was sad to miss that that was a good discussion i started listening to it today so check that out even though it's not on the the thp or sorry the yeah my mind is a little foggy the morelia python's radio network it's got a little little covid brain there dude but uh phil and justin do a good job they're good we had we had a fun time with uh with justin on the podcast a couple weeks ago we need to have phil on sometime that'd be good yeah phil on here but they were talking about virus infections so you know and other

bacterial infections and things in collection it was really good discussion um they had let's see travis wyman oh man my code brain why did i start this when i don't have the answer to um zach lofman and um man why am i drawing a blank i'm terrible uh steven tillis those three discussing different uh you know testing and things in your collections and that would have been good to be on but those guys handled it fine there were you know three three guys and two hosts it's you know that's plenty of plenty of mind power and they didn't need you freaking great job with matt without my covet brain on there so yeah i was feeling a little

worse for the wear last night too because we we had thought about uh recording last night as well and i i said let's wait for tonight yeah you sound better today than you did even yesterday so now i think i i feel probably 50 75 better today than i did yesterday. So I'm on the upward trend, which is good. Hopefully back in the saddle. I'm, I'm stuck in my room until, um, I think Friday or Saturday. So that's when my 10 days of isolation are up. So then it's back to back to the old grindstone, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. We'll see. Have you thrown any snowballs at your neighbor's house or anything? I felt like it. I was a little upset. I mean, we were both wearing masks. Go figure. You know, I guess it's, it's more important when the person who's infected is wearing a mask. So,

well, I mean, that's don't work if it's only half the party. Yeah. Well, I mean mean i think that's been a pretty consistent uh the a pretty consistent thing right i mean yeah the mask is not yes it's much more effective when the infected person is yeah yeah yeah i mean obviously if you're if you got the got the d and you're like just you know unmasked breathing all over the the place. You're spreading virus. Yep. And I mean, we were pretty close, like we were next to her at a funeral. And nobody at that funeral was wearing a mask either. So I wonder how many people, who else got it?

Because I don't know. It's just, it's maddening, I guess. It's such a simple thing. I mean, wearing a mask at a public gathering is not that difficult, really. Well. It's not a meme, except, yeah. California's back to it. We're, we're, we're masked.

Well, we're masked back, back to being masked indoors. So. Yeah. Yeah. That's, uh. That's kind of how it should be if there's a pandemic, but oh well. Okay. So what's going on herp wise with you, my friend?

So you got a couple more hatchlings? Yeah. So I have three, yeah, three more grandest babies. So, and then just waiting on some standing eye to hatch and got even more grandest behind them. And so, yeah, it's, it's a fricking day gecko city over here, man. I'm going to have to be Chuck Poland day gecko man pretty soon. Hey man. Yeah. We'll, we'll see. He said, he said, he said, he said,

they get go man. So yeah, I don't know. Well, it's been fun. I mean, they're fun. They're cute, cute little, you know, cute little day geckos. So, yeah, doing that. And we'll see. I don't know. It's stormed around here.

And so I caught my Tracy A hugged up together. So, yeah. So seems like, seems like a pretty prototypical behavior for, um, where they were, you know, the moving in the right direction. Hopefully. Yeah, man. Hopefully. So yeah, for sure. Cool.

Well, how about you? Uh, yeah, not, I mean, a little bit of, a little bit of action going on. I've, I've thrown a few more pairs together, so I'm, I'm going with the traditional route for the Inlands. I'm going to try to wait until the spring and throw them together, but, um, yeah, so we'll see, see what happens. Yeah. Things are cooling down here. We got snow that stuck and it's raining now. So maybe that'll wash it, wash the rest of the snow away, but yeah, we're getting a few storms and so hopefully that'll help kick things into gear. Um, really, really looking for, um, the, the carpets to, to breed this year after they

took last year off. And then the blackheads, that'd make me very happy if I got hit those two groups, get the Aspidites and the Morelia to go. Oh yeah. That's cool. We'll see. Yeah.

And the book is, it's just about there. I mean, I think we got the text done. I've got all the figure layouts. We're starting to get the PDF layouts from the publisher. So it's getting close. It's really, yeah, we could be done and ready to send to the printers by the end of the year, potentially, depending on how quickly the layouts go. But yeah, it's uh gonna be a behemoth i've got the first two chapters back and i think combined they're like 60 something pages or somewhere on there let me yeah i don't know if it's that many but it's pretty it's gonna it is. See, maybe it is. Yeah. Page 63 is the end of chapter two. And I don't think he did the introduction. I don't know why he's doing the introduction after chapter one and two, but yeah. So yeah, it should be a pretty fun. I've been working on, uh, had to add a few kind of last minute changes that I realized I'd, um, kind of made a mistake on a couple things and had to go back and

change a few other things, including a range map and some other stuff. So yeah, it was good. I caught that, I guess, but then I had a brain. Yeah. You always hope you didn't rush things too much. Um, because, uh, you don't want that kind of set in stone. So it's nice though, as Russ, like you don't want the book all done and you get it and you go to read through it and you're like, Oh crap. We do get a blue line version or, yeah, I mean, we go through the PDF so we can kind of read through and kind of fine tooth

comb it, um, make sure everything's consistent right now. We're working on the evolutionary history chapter to finish that one up and, and, uh, integrate, uh, Warren's information soon, hopefully. And, uh, um, he's, he's busy making bases apparently. Sorry, I had to give a little shout out to Warren there. Um, but you know, I'm excited to see what he's got to, to add to this. And then, um, I've seen a bit, but, uh, seeing the chapter will be nice. And then we've got, uh, um, that to wrap up and then that's it for, for the book and it should all be done. Um, but the, the evolutionary history chapters is going to be pretty interesting. I think we got some fun

ideas in there that, uh, should be fun to read about and think about. Cause, uh, it's, you know, it's all just our hypotheses or ideas or whatever, but, um, still, still cool to think about. I was really excited to, to, uh, you know, be, be thinking about these things and writing about them for a while. So I'm excited to get it out there, but yeah, enough about the book. Okay. All right. On to fight. You ready? What do we fight tonight? Oh yeah. You want to fight about something? Sure. Let's fight about inbreeding. No, no, no, no.

You're Kentucky cousins. No, not that. Whoa. Whoa. Leave my Kentucky cousins out of this. Inbreeding in reptile collections, if it's the negatives and positives, I guess, of, of inbreeding. All right. You can see positives. I guess that might be the,

well, you've got side, but there's one. Yeah. There's definitely some positives of snake inbreeding. Sure. Yep. Okay.

Well, let's go then. You ready? You want to go? You're ready to call this? Call this? Sure. Sure. Yeah. Let's go. Come on. Or do you want to just you're ready to call this call this sure yeah let's go come on or do you want to just pass it up just shut up and shut up call it in the air tails tails oh you got it it's that's right i did nice job that's right i did okay well Right, I did. Okay. Well, you win some, you lose some, I guess.

Yeah. Yeah. What you want? You want the for or against inbreeding? Oh, you can. You can. You can take. Now you don't know what to do.

I don't know what to do. I don't know. I'm thinking. You got to make a decision. Thinking. Thinking. Take your time, buddy. Take your time. I will. Come on. It should be easy to wipe the floor with me. I got COVID brain. Come on. Listen, you could beat me with one, one COVID brain, but tied behind

your back. I'll do. Oh, screw it, man. I will, I will do, I will do the, the, the positives of, of inbreeding. I will take that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's do this thing. Um, you gonna go first or no, you're going first. You're going to do the Chuck and defer. Yes. Of course. Yes. The Chuck strategy. Yes. Okay. Well, obviously, there's a lot of documented issues revolving around inbreeding. And most breeding projects are designed around the idea of increasing genetic diversity genetic diversity to, uh, not have issues associated with inbreeding. Um, different, of course, uh, reported issues associated with inbreeding, um, include, you know, uh, morphological, uh, deformities or, uh, you know, bulging eyes, you know, things like that. And so, um, those are

more obvious effects of inbreeding. Yeah. Sorry. I'm giving, I'm giving my best bulging eyes right now. Sorry. Yeah. If you could only see me now, folks, you know, so I think, you know, the list goes on and on and sometimes it results in lower fecundity and issues with reproduction. And so sometimes those kind of things weed them out when weed themselves out. Tumors are a common one, you know, especially very documented in different inbred mouse strains, you know, you have, uh, obviously you have to have the right genes line up to have some kind of dysfunction and, um, but that's the idea. Um, uh, we don't want to have messed up things. We want to have genetic diversity. We want to have things that can be robust and strong. There's actually that, um, term, you know, hybrid vigor, where if you're outbreeding, you have more vigorous and, you know, strong offspring or whatever. So that's the idea behind avoiding inbreeding. Can I just take a minute to just say what a great word fecundity is?

Yeah. I just think that's such a freaking great word anyway um yeah so i think you've pretty much given a good definition of of of you know kind of the the issues around inbreeding i think um you know really what we're what we're what we're doing when we're line breeding snakes in some aspects is we're trying to bring together a lot of these visual traits or these visual things that we see to make snakes look nicer uh or i mean i guess you could select for you know better feeders or you know all all manner of a manner of things yeah so um you know i i think um i i i think the issue that we're concerned about is when like those deleterious genes show up, uh, and, and, and then we breed them together. And, and so, you know, the idea of inbreeding or, or selective breeding, um, you know, kind of is, is magnifying traits. And, and so the issue isn't really about inbreeding. It's about not outcrossing

enough to keep that diversity for, to, to kind of keep those deleterious traits diluted out. Right. And I think, I think you can, you can still end up with deleterious things going on. Um, even, even though you're out crossing, I think, you know, cancer can be, you know, if, if, if you're breeding animals that, and you have a sire or a dam that just has a very high propensity for cancer, um, you know, the, the out crossing may help, but, but it, at some, you know, but at some level, it's kind of like if you have heart disease in your family, even though maybe you didn't marry your cousin who also has heart disease, does not mean your risk in your children for heart disease doesn't go away. You know what I mean? So I get the idea of outcrossing, but, you know, I think in, I guess what I'm trying to get around to here is the idea that even though we're

inbreeding animals to make stuff nice, it doesn't necessarily always result in deleterious things being magnified. Now it certainly can lead you down that path, but, but how else, if you're trying to accomplish a certain look or a certain, you know, path with an animals that you're line breeding, are you going to get there without some manner of, of inbreeding? Yeah. Well, and, you know, I guess that could be likened to, you know, the, the idea of survival of the fittest, uh, in, in nature, maybe, you know, reproduction isn't necessarily random. It's the, the males that have the strongest, uh, genes or whatever, you know, different traits that allow them to be the dominant males.

Now that, that in reptiles, there's a, there's that really common idea that, you know, the beta male kind of slips in while the alpha male is defending his territory. And a lot of times, you know, you'll get kind of those sneak in breedings or whatever that occur quite frequently in the animal kingdom. But, and, and so not, not always the, the strongest genes are necessarily passed on. But, you know, there are some mechanisms that, you know, that alpha males use like killing off a competitor's offspring or, you know, things like that, where, you know, the, the dominant animals have a lot of strategies to kind of keep their genes flowing. So, you know, maybe those traits result in continuing their, their genetic information. And so that allows that to those, those genes to pass

on. So if, if they pass on those dominant genes and the, and their offspring are also very fit and can compete well against rivals and have, you know, their pick of the females or whatever, then those genes continue on. So, um, but you know, they're still having some random selection of mates or, or selecting the fittest mate or whatever. And that may change from year to year. Um, the, the dominant males get beat up on as they get older or if they get a disease or get sick, you know, so things kind of keep, keep moving and, and the genetics kind of mix, mix around a bit more. So, but I mean, if you were to have two animals that had a high genetic fitness between the

two of them and they constantly inbred for each other for a long time i mean what what that could potentially be way better than an animal with with you know uh a very weak genetic fitness or or a high propensity for deleterious genes or a bunch of deleterious genes in its, in its, in its DNA. And, and it's, it's, uh, you know, and it's breeding with a male with, with some, some high fitness, you know, like you're, you're, you it's, and so it's an idea that we're talking about is, is outcrossing for fitness, rather than concentrate, what you're worried about is what is the level of genetic fitness in those animals? And you take kind of the guesstimation

that it's average. What if it's not average? What if it's great? So you kind of don't know, you know what I mean? So it's more of just a safer strategy than it is necessarily a hard, fast rule. And I think we've kind of had this conversation about, you know, well, you know, who, okay, so as an idea, inbreeding is bad, but you don't know where it's bad. And we seem to see people who inbreed the hell out of snakes. They make really fantastic looking snakes. And do those snakes necessarily have a lot of deleterious genes or a lot of problems? No, not always. I mean, they can and it can happen, but we don't know where that is because we don't understand what the genetic fitness of those animals really is from, you know, other than like the visual cues that we get. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely hard. And, you know, I think in captivity, with a lot of things, we don't have choices. You know, I did want to go back to one of the earlier points you made about it was more, you know, environmental versus genetic. And I think regardless of how strong your genetic outbreeding or outcrossing strategy is, if your husbandry is

poor or deleterious, then it's not going to make a difference how strong their genetics are if you're you know feeding them crap or keeping them in improperly and so i mean you'd see that sometimes even in zoos you know a good example of maybe the galapagos uh tortoises where they were feeding them high you know high protein or high uh fruit or high vegetable, you know, high protein or high, uh, fruit or high vegetable diets, you know, where they were used to eating dry grass for a lot of the years, you know, and then they, they're giving them too much nutrients and their shells grew too quickly and were deformed and things. So even though they had, you know, fine genetics, um, their, their husbandry was off in, in such a way that resulted in deleterious effects. And I mean, that's a long lived animal and they still have, you know, there were still,

still some animals at the San Diego zoo that had shell problems, or I think even one had wheels attached to it. I can't remember if that was the San Diego zoo, but anyway, you know, from, from those, um, early attempts back before they figured out proper nutrition for Galapagos tortoises. So even if you have deleterious genes in the mix or no deleterious genes in the mix, if you're keeping your animals improperly, those environmental pressures are just as important in my mind is genetic, um, factors. So, you know, ensuring a good genetic diversity, you need to also include a suitable husbandry. So, um, wheel me out, Brett, wheel me out. We, we, uh, the, um, ideas though of, of that, I think, I think you think you're right you know we can't see the genetics and and it's very uh costly at least at this time to you know try to get some genetic profile you have

to have some understanding of the genes at work and maybe um some of the genetic and we just don't have that information yeah i think it requires a database that we just don't have you know even for human database we have we have some of that kind just don't have, you know, a comparative database. We have some of that kind of stuff for humans. And you can get a genetic test on, you know, a developing child within the womb and know, you know, if it has certain deleterious genes that you need to prepare for, you know, when the baby's coming or whatnot. And that took a lot of comparative analysis, I think, to say, oh, well, you know, whenever we see this, you know, malformation or disease or whatever, we always see this gene present. And I don't think when they say these things that that's an absolute, you know. And it probably took a good decade of work to figure out what that gene.

Yeah. And it probably took a good decade of work to figure out what that gene. Well, it was like that idea of like the, the BRCA, I don't remember the, the BRCA something gene that is associated with breast cancer that just didn't come out of, you know, uh, uh, one study or, or, you know, something that somebody noticed that, that took a long time to get to and forget it. I mean, just forget it in reptiles because oh and it's never gonna yeah you know it's truly a needle in a haystack situation and the haystack is you know a a giant haystack a giant haystack yeah and there's one needle in the middle yeah yeah um it's really difficult and you know i think uh, so, so not having those, um, tools or whatever, I think the, the, uh, easy way about it is to, to have that genetic diversity and to have a diverse pool, um, in your breeding groups, if possible. Um, you know, then you can kind of ensure that, you know, you're doing your best to keep your population healthy. And, um, you know, I guess the other side of that is, is a lot of times, like you said, we are breeding for a certain trait. And so that automatically says you're not out crossing, you're breeding for a trait. So you're

inbreeding for that trait. And so, and that's not necessarily always negative. Like you said, you know, that can be just fine and you can get a nice paint job and still have a strong, healthy animal. But obviously, a lot of times when we're selecting these mutations in color and pattern, we're also selecting other deleterious effects along with it. The classic example is the jaguar carpet python that has neurological you know damage and and you know similar to other reduced pattern um morphs out there like the spider ball python they also have neurologic defects and and they've kind of i guess the idea behind that is is neural crest development and migration of um neural crest cells yeah neural crest cells but but of... Neural crest cells. Yeah, neural crest cells,

but kind of co-migration with the melanin-producing cells. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's kind of thought to be, and since they have a reduction in their melanin-producing cells that don't have proper neural crest development that's kind of the hypothesis i don't i don't think that's been proven when where the maybe maybe not in reptiles but maybe it's been observed in other species i was gonna say i thought i thought that the idea where that came from was an observation from uh something that had been well yeah yeah yeah

yeah and so you know, that, that's likely the case. I mean, genetics are genetics. It doesn't matter if you're, you know, talking about snake or, or horse or whatever. So, um, yeah, Ben was always a good resource in regards to genetics. He's, he's a bright guy. He's still a good resource. Yeah. He still is. Yeah. Okay. But he doesn't live on the road anymore. Yeah. Right, right, right, right, right. I got you.

I got you. Yeah. But anyway, yeah, the idea of being able to identify or screen for deleterious genes is just not a capability we have. We have very, very little genetic information on reptiles period true you know genetic information rather than knowing that something's a recessive trade or whatnot you know um yeah and it is kind of that interesting idea too that you know it if you want to think about it in action is you know when so like people uh have kind of said like, you know, when, so like people have kind of said like, oh, you know, carpet mutations,

when you start to put together multiple, multiple carpet mutations, things can kind of fall apart a little bit on you with the animals. And I think that's a, just a perfect example of, of how, you know, the, the, the culmination of deleterious mutations, because I mean, you know, we take mutations as like a positive thing, but it's, it's not really always a very positive thing. Usually that, that positive visual, something that we're with, that we like comes along with some, some negative issues that we don't like. And when you, you know, put those all together, it, you know, no shit stuff turns out suckier and has a lot more problems. So, and, and, you know, I think that's probably a good way to think about it. Like, look at, look at how many mutations you have to start to put together. And, and it doesn't

necessarily work this way whole shot, but, but, you know, putting multiple mutations, which have probably have multiple deleterious issues going on there together results in animals that have less fuck. Oh my gosh. I can't say it now. Say it for me, Justin. Thank you. I couldn't get the, I couldn't get to the sea. I couldn't. So, uh, uh, so I, I, you know, I think if that's the way you want to think about it, um, or if that helps people think about it, you know, the idea that inbreeding, um, is just like, oh my God, oh God, don't do it. You know, you do it all the time. Uh, and that's a lot of what line breeding is.

So I just, I think that, um, you know, as a general rule, yes, out crossing is good. But again, there's issues around out crossing of, you know, for carpets. Out crossing is tough because we have a limited amount. You know, if we were all in Australia and you could get wild caught stuff that works towards the direction you're going, wow, wouldn't that be easier, right? But it's not. We're stuck with kind of what we have. So what we outcross to is what's available to us.

And that definitely probably may be working against a direction that we're going. Certainly, Striped Jungles is a good example that comes to mind. It's hard to get a striped jungle project together because you're eventually outcrossing something striped jungle leads to less striping. So it's, you know, it's, uh, um, it, you know, it's a, it's a tug of war, I think. And, and so I guess where I'm going with that is that, you know, sometimes in the tug of war, if you want something your way, you got to tug it into the inbred side of the house and, and, uh, you know, and, and maybe see how it goes. I mean, I guess, you know, the, I mean, do you think the issue

like gets worse? Like, like if you push inbreeding into maybe just before an inbreeding depression or you're, you're starting to see some of the negative effects of, of line breeding something you think going, you think just outcrossing it pushes it back at all. So, so that you can shore that back up, like things get better. It seems like, I mean, they've demonstrated some of that, you know, with, uh, albino, uh, spotted pythons in Australia where the first ones are not living long and they were very weak. But if you kind of outcrossed and brought in other, uh, um, you know, healthy animals into the mix and produced heads and albinos from those, sometimes you'd, you'd strengthen things. I think they're to the point now where the albinos are a little bit stronger, but, you

know, it's a long road. And, and this, uh, I guess focus on morphs is kind of what's driving a lot of these issues. I think, I think, you know, morphs are an interesting thing to talk about too, because like you said, you could, you could potentially outcross to shore up a morph, but, but if you're doing kind of a line bred, you know, trait, that's not necessarily, uh, you know, as, as predictably and it has a, you know, a specific mode of inheritance, uh, you're, you're, when you're outcrossing, you're generally, unless you're working with an animal that has similar, you know, tiger to tiger type thing, uh, you're going to be working against yourself, uh, for, for that kind of, uh, um, you know, Possibly. Yeah. I mean, that's, it's, it's hard

because I don't think we have a great, um, handle on what, you know, how, how many generations before you start seeing problems and what constitutes a problem to abandon a certain thing. I guess some things like, like we talked about with the Jaguar gene, you're not going to outcross that, you know? No, no, that's not going anywhere. It comes with the gene. And so, you know, and potentially like an albino, you know, they'll have, they'll have a sensitivity to sunlight and things like that. And if it's a lizard, I mean a snake, okay. But a lizard, you know, that's out having to bask or something that could be problematic. And so I think that's why a lot of times those albino lizards that are, you know,

baskers may have, have a lot of issues. And you know it i guess it depends on again if it's if it's not necessarily a deleterious gene and you're just trying to um produce animals with a certain uh phenotype that's associated with the gene say albino i mean most albinos are okay they're not gonna they're not just gonna kill over and die because they're albinos, but, um, yeah, most of the time they're just deselected in nature because they're, they're, they're easy to pick up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But some, some lines like, you know, the albino maculosa, maybe it is a weak gene and you have to shore it up with other genes, or maybe the original albino had other mutations that went along with the albino that weren't really obvious or, you know, not everything has a phenotype. And so like a visual phenotype, like a pattern or color change.

You can absolutely have deleterious traits that go along with a mutation and because you're breeding, you know, for the mutation, you just continue those traits along. And, you know, as you kind of neck down that road, um, I will, I, I, another thing occurred to me, I saw, we had a lecture at the university by one of our, uh, the researchers in our department and she was working on, on sperm and, uh, doing some research with sperm and showing how, uh, males can actually pass on. What's the word now? It's the failing me. I started down.

I don't know. You said it, man. You said it. You had a non genetically passed on information where you have changes in like methylation in the DNA, like your epigenetic epigenetic. Oh yeah.

Thank you. Epigenetic thing.etic oh yeah thank you epigenetic good thing you had me here exactly thank you thanks for a bit you could have let me suffer man you could i wouldn't do that final blow there you've already suffered enough this week they demonstrated that uh that the sperm can contain epigenetic information. So the, the father can pass on epigenetic traits. Um, like, um, I think there was the, it's called the thrifty gene and they, they documented this like after, um, world war two, where. Is that like where you just shop at Goodwill and you're like, you're here. It's actually the, the genes actually, um, cause you to metabolize your, uh, energy a lot more thriftily. And so you gain weight very quickly and you put it on fat

because you're used to hard time. You know, the, the genetic information that came from your parents was used to hard times. And it's not a, it's not a genetic trait. It's an epigenetic trait and it's in the way the DNA is packaged packaged and so in the past like two probably three years my thrifty gene activated yeah i think it's i'm trying to be funny parent at birth but you know yeah so anyway no it wasn't apparent at birth i was a slim kid all the way up until my mid-40s. So it's probably not the thrifty gene. It's probably your warranty ran out. Yeah. We're not going to say that Chuck is degrading my telomeres.

My telomeres are unwinding, folks. It's going down. We've got a 35, 40-year warranty on our bodies, and then it just all goes to crap. Anyway, they've demonstrated that if men work out excessively, they can actually pass on epigenetic information that tells their offspring to gain that thrifty gene or to metabolize their food differently. And so, you know, it's really fascinating. But anyway, it goes back to kind of how animals are cared for,

you know, so you can pass on things that are not genetic, you know, not in the, in the base coding, but rather in the methylation of the DNA or certain genes are tagged to be replicated more frequently by, you know, in the offspring. And so that's kind of, kind of what, uh, what you wind up with. I can see a joke developing what you got for me. No, I was just going to say, shout out ladies to all those lazy men out there. I'm going to give you skinny kids. You better, you better, yeah. Better select your mate properly. You want to work out, but not too much. Put the meat heads away, put the meat heads away. What's fascinating too, is some of these things can actually take effect on the germ cells during of the offspring as well.

So like as they're developing their germ cells, so you can not only impact your offspring, but your grand children as well by based on the, the type, um, you know, the epigenetic signals you can send out. And so they did a study with mice where they fed the mice cocaine, and I guess cocaine doesn't taste good with mice. So mice don't like it that much, but they showed that, you know, they, they did, I think they even did like an, no, the male had no contact with the offspring. He just sired the offspring. And then the, the male had no contact with the offspring. He just sired the offspring. And then those offspring were given the choice to drink normal water or cocaine-laced water.

And they chose the cocaine-laced water versus the normal mice were not interested in the cocaine-laced water. They just took the normal water. Well, not at first. They have to get a taste the first taste is free and then then that lab that lab worker had some good customers i don't know what the mice paid in but fucking coke head mice damn bro but they they demonstrated that that uh you know the propensity could be passed on. So even through the sperm, through an epigenetic thing, because there was no cocaine gene, whatever you want to call it in the mail. I mean, he developed that and developed a pattern of taking that. And then over time,

pass that information on through an epigenetic mechanism. So interesting, you know, that you, and this is probably more a point for you that, you know, you can worry about inbreeding all you want, but if you're not keeping your animals properly or, you know, exposing them to things that aren't really that great or shooting for genes that aren't really that strong, you're probably not going to do so great in, you know, your overall outcome, if that's what you're looking at. I mean, if you want to make a quick buck with a new morph or something, you're probably okay, but in the longterm, you know, that's, and, and I think we see that in our, um, you know, in breeding, not necessarily with deleterious genes, but just in the fact that we've reduced in a lot of ways, um, the, the phenotypes that we have in herpetoculture. Like if you, you know,

there's, there's, it's really hard to find a jungle that's not bright yellow and black, you know, find like a, like a wild type, uh, normal jungle anymore. They, they don't exist in herpetoculture in the U S um, for the most part. I mean, there, there have been some that have been imported from Europe, some, um, locality specific, you know, Palmerston's or, or totally, but for the most part, those are very few and far between and hard to find. And most people don't really want to focus on that because they don't sell, you know, there's no money in them and so i think uh a lot of the deleterious genes if you will that have crept in through inbreeding are um the uh morph the morph

craze or chasing after more and i think you know your point, like if, if, if it's all bright yellow and black jungles, right. And that's what we're, that's what we're selecting for. Eventually you'reious traits will end up in some black and yellow jungles. And if that's what's getting bred and, and the, and the ability to outcross to keep them black and yellow, you know, is, is less and less. It's almost like a genetic bottlenecking in the end.

And, and you're gonna, you're gonna end up with those negative traits. Am I wrong? I don't know. Am I wrong? Are you arguing for me? wrong are you arguing for me or you are no you i'm arguing for the sake of arguing that's what we do here okay all right well it just

feels like you're taking my thunder this is my side oh i'm saying that i was asking you a question and all you needed to say was yes. Yes. No, I would have had your point. Again, if you're, you know, talking about inbreeding and deleterious genes, the deleterious genes have to come from somewhere. They have to be like, you know, if, if they, if they came along with the bright yellow, some deleterious gene was associated with the bright yellow, then yeah, then selecting for that yellow and black and yellow, bright yellow is going to result in more deleterious genes in offspring. And you're going to have more of that negative effect in the offspring. But if that's not present. In idea, in concept. Just the fact of chasing that isn't necessarily going to result in that. I guess my, my point with the morph craze thing is as you add genes on genes on genes, you're, you're combining, um, all those genes and the,

some of them have deleterious effects that come along with them, like the jag, you know, you got the neural thing. So now you have a super zebra caramel, you know, jag hypo or whatever. And it's going to have a couple different weakened, whatever gene, you know, your granite gene is a little weak and things like that. There's these different traits that kind of go along with that. And gene on gene on gene, pretty soon you're going to have pretty sketchy outcomes. You know, you might have some that are okay and make it and they can sire more of those gene on gene on genes, but you might have effects over time with that. And that's, you know, in my mind. And then you also have a hard time finding the wild types or the single gene animals. Those don't exist anymore because they don't make enough money. So nobody's going

to breed a single gene when they can breed the triple or quadruple or quintuple gene. And so I think I made it up. You did. And I liked it. I liked it. You keep focusing or exacerbating that issue and making, you know, kind of a worse outcome in the long run, but you're also getting rid of the diversity. You're sure everything starts to look the same after a certain amount of time. I mean, you know, the ball Python, there's so many different mutations that it's hard. Everything wants to be the ball Python more morph market now, because, you know, that's so crazy. And, and I, I guess, you know, there's quite a few different carpet genetic mutants and different genes and phenotypes or whatever. I mean, as working on the book, the morph section is absolutely huge now. And Nick's got three different sections, you know, and well over 100 pictures or maybe even several hundred pictures.

But do you, but I mean, let's say carpets were all just one species. What do you think we'd even be having the same conversation? Like, cause I mean, all ball pythons are just one species. So all the mutations that sit underneath ball pythons are all just, you know, ball pythons and most of them, but some of them, right, right, right, right. But, but I guess what I'm saying is like, you like you said, you know, look at ball pythons. And I mean, I guess I don't take a difference in ball pythons because you certainly have. Well, I mean, there's tens in carpets and hundreds in balls.

Right. And so, but you still see some mutations that, you know, are just fine and, and you get no outwardly deleterious issues with them. Um, whereas certain ball Python mutations are, you know, wonka do, uh, and, you know, and, and, and in the same way that the jag is like, it's not always bad, but it's bad a lot of the time, you know? Yeah. And it's. And it's usually present if the animal's stressed, you know, even in one that hasn't shown it its whole life, if you get it stressed out enough, it might start showing it. So do you, in your mind, kind of take it differently?

Like for me, when I think of inbreeding, I think of it more of in a line breeding kind of sense where, you know, you're not taking inheritable mutations necessarily, but that you're kind of breeding for certain looks or certain things. Like, I guess I see, I guess, like when I think about it and I understand what you're saying, I just like, like for the jag, for example, like we understand that's a mode of inheritance. And, and, you know, if you put lots of, of morphs together, yeah, it gets not as, as, you know, we, we tend to see more issues. Um, if you put multiple ball pythons together that have a mutation that has issues, yeah, you get more kind of issues, but, but,

you know, when we're talking about line breeding, um, you, you may not necessarily have those. Um, and, and actually you probably do have those genes that have mutations in them. They're just not visual. You don't see the result of that. Right. So I guess maybe I'm answering my own question and saying that maybe no, you know, maybe it's not I guess, how do you look at it that way? Uh, for, as far as, um, like, you know, when, when, when, uh, when do you know it's, it's, oh man, this is not good. Like, uh, obviously, uh, you know, some, some like, like, would you say that, that if you had a clutch and you just had a hard time feeding like, would you say that, that if you had a clutch and you just had a hard time feeding them, getting to feed that, that's a, uh, you know, a result of potential

inbreeding or are they just, uh, pygmy pythons or anteresia, right? Like, yeah. Hey, I mean, it depends. I, obviously you can select for those traits that may not be deleterious traits, but they might not be necessarily a wild type trait, like a hog, a snake eating a mouse, you know, we get them right out of the egg and they want to eat a mouse. Whereas,

you know, you catch a wild one and get their offspring. They're going to want toads and they're probably going to die because they hold out for toads or you have to send the food with toad for a while. So you got to kind of take it in context. Yeah. And, I mean, obviously we select you know whether consciously or subconsciously for like different traits like maybe a calmer animal you're not going to necessarily keep the biggest craziest bitiest snake you have to to breed just because you feel like he's the strongest or dominant, you know, male or whatever. I say nay, I like the biting ones.

Yep. So, you know, and, and so we, we, we do a lot of the selection for things and most people don't have, you know, 20 of the same species, all normal wild type animals, you know, we, we typically, um, focus on certain projects or, or just have a pair or two of, of a species, you know, um, and, and try to, to produce some now, you know, with, with pythons, especially, and that's kinda, you know, we talk a lot about pythons cause that's kinda what we're interested in, but you know, maybe this is different with other reptiles. I wonder with like tortoises too. I mean, most of these things are, if you keep them properly and they live a happy long life, they're going to be producing for a good 20 years, you know? So if

you're producing from the same animals for 20 years you're not inbreeding anything right right that's one pair for 20 years and so by the time you're done producing from that pair you know you're on to generation two okay so you know how many generations does it take to see those deleterious effects so i guess in in in from that view it's it's a herpetoculture thing you know we kind of need to be thinking about the future or whatnot, from that view, it's, it's a herpetoculture thing. You know, we kind of need to be thinking about the future or whatnot. So maybe that's why it's good to kind of keep lineage or, or figure out what you've got. So when, when you do come time to, you know, somebody's starting a new project, they can select individuals that may be not closely related or something.

And, and then they can, um, you know, select animals that are as distant as, as possible genetically. And then that, that kind of, that kind of carries that genetic strength on or, or that out breeding or out crossing on to the future. Whereas if, if, you know, everybody's just after a gene or a mutation or a phenotype, then that kind of all goes out the window because, Oh, you need the blue line or you need the albino gene or a mutation or a phenotype, then that kind of all goes out the window. Cause Oh, you need the blue line or you need the albino gene or whatever. So then you just chase that and that's your selection process.

So I think, you know, there needs to, you know, there can be both that can both exist, but somebody needs to be looking out for kind of that longterm. And that's where I definitely, that's a good point point and things like that come in and you can be smart about how you inbreed uh animals to reduce your potential for running into that into an inbreeding depression

or or you know uh issues um Yeah. You know, I think. In science, we've got how many lines of inbred mice that have been bred over hundreds of generations. Yeah. Well, they're good because they're inbred, right? Yeah, they're basically genetically identical. Now, that comes with some costs and consequences as well, because if you're trying to model a viral disease in these mouse strains, which we do, right, we have different mouse models for different viral infection. And this is kind of my day job area. We will use one of these inbred mouse strains often you know and so but do they represent a diverse and outcrossed human population no right so you kind of have to take it with a grain of salt and the

findings don't necessarily always translate to efficacy in people if you're you know testing antivirals in in mouse models like i am but but but what you're trying to see is the way yeah you you get to see the way a potential drug behaves in a mouse model it and and maybe you're you don't have the uh the the genetically most ideal and fit uh example that you're testing it on but you're testing it on a uniform example to get a uniform result. Right. So it's, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's, it, you know, it's, it's means to the end. It's what, you know, what, what you're, what you're trying to do. Yeah. And not only that, like they, they've also showed that the gut contents, you know, we always feed this, you

know, kind of same lab chow and things like that. And so, um, you're actually, uh, influencing the outcomes by what they're eating. If they had a diverse bacterial flora, that's similar to a wild type mouse, or even a wild type human, you know, something different that that's, that's variable because all humans have different bacterial, you know, components in their gut, um, that, that can make a huge difference on how a drug is metabolized or how they respond to a virus infection and things like that. So there's a lot of other factors that go into these things. And that's kind of why I made a comment. Like you can have the most genetically pure offspring you, you can get, you know, you have 30 different genetic pure offspring you can get.

You have 30 different genetic backgrounds and you're out crossing and shifting and having this great model of who you're breeding to. environmental factors that they require, you know, who cares how genetically pure they are, if they're going to grow their shells all wonky because you're feeding them too rich a diet or they're overweight or they're, you know, this or that or the other. And to your point, I mean, you know, we talked about epigenetics and I think the, the, it was a PBS special, the, uh, ghost in the in the genes um for anybody who's interested in in epigenetics uh look up ghosting ghost in the genes and it's a whole very fascinating thing i think kpbs did on epigenetics in humans but uh it absolutely demonstrates what we're talking about here um but anyway i mean you you can you can cause an animal's epigenetics to change its offspring's propensity for things. So let's say you were a heavy feeder, uh, but you know,

you, maybe you, uh, gave them, okay. To use your bodybuilder example, let's say you gave snakes huge cages and they ran around, ran around, ran around, ran around, but then you, you know, over the long period or, or maybe into the future, somebody else gets your offspring of those animals and they keep them in small cages and all of a sudden feed them too much. Well, those animals are going to deposit fat faster because they used to be that human that worked out a lot. And then they ended up, you know, the offspring ended up with the epigenetics of somebody who gains weight easier. And then now all of a sudden, because they're, they're more sedentary and they're being fed, they're gaining more weight. Right. So that's

kind of that human example of what we're talking about. So, so it's, it's, it's kind of a huge moving target too with epigenetics. So, and I think that kind of goes to why we push a certain standard of care or, or what the best uniform way to kind of keep, uh, reptiles is because it, it, it helps keep a steady state constant with, uh care and how, and then, you know, like in the experimental factors, trying to reduce, you know, variation in a test, right? So if we all keep the same way, you know, going forward, a lot of those results will be similar. So we're not, we're not creating these, um, heaps and valleys of epigenetic change. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I, you know, there's, there's so many things

that kind of go into this, but overall, you know, looking at, um, genetic diversity and maintaining kind of those strong, uh, genetic outbred populations is probably something to, to consider, you know, when you're starting a project, when you're, when you're bringing in animals, you know, are these all from the same shipment? Maybe they were collected from the same area and maybe they're somewhat related. Um, it's nice that we're developing tools like, uh, Ben Morrell's, uh, you know, genetic analyses that he can do to show parentage and show relatedness in certain, um, species. And, and so, you know, maybe that's part of setting up a long-term breeding project or something, you know, you know, identifying those animals that have,

um, interesting outcross Rob Stone actually sent me an article that was based on, um, herpetoculture collections, as well as zoological collections of a certain, I think it was Jamaican boas or one of the Island boas, right? Yeah, man. Yeah. Or they're, oh man. Sorry. But anyway, they looked at the genetic diversity in the captive populations, you know, within zoos and in private hands. And they actually found a really diverse genetic background in these boas. And so that, you know, and this is also part, I believe they have a stud book for these two. And I think Rob said that might be in private hands if I, if I'm remembering correctly, either that one or a different project, but, um, where, where that's actually working in herpetoculture to have a stud book, to have kind of this, and obviously this, well, so these, these island bows,

a lot of them are, um, on the either endangered species or on the CITES list that they're not allowed to be sold, um, state to state. And so you have to have a, you know, a USCB permit to sell them to somebody in another state, the person in the other state has to have that permit. But if you just give them to them, you don't have to have permits. And so a lot of these, um, Island boa projects, they don't sell them. They don't worry about that. They just gift them to somebody and just send the offspring out to other people who are, who are, who care about these boas and about their, their, uh, maintenance in herpetoculture. So it's.

What a novel fucking concept. Wow. Yeah. You don't have to make money on every project. Oh my God. What a concept. I know it's, it's very foreign to a lot of, uh, uh, reptile keepers these days, but, um, it's very foreign to a lot of, uh, uh, reptile keepers these days, but, um, it's kind of a cool thing and, you know, and, and it's nice to have, um, certain projects and it shows in this, in these data sets that show they're genetically diverse, they're maintained. Well, you know, there's different things, uh, that they go into this. And so, you know, there's,

they're selecting the people they give them to. They're not just taking the first guy that has, you know, a thousand bucks or whatever to, so they're, they're selecting the people that they're sending them to. So it's, it's really kind of a cool program. And then the people within the group know each other and know, okay, you, you have stuff for me, maybe get stuff from this guy, you know? So they, they kind of keep that out crossing alive. And so these populations. That would be a really awesome way. Like, like exactly what Ben's doing.

You know what I mean? Like exactly. A cool model for how a long-term project, they don't care about morphs necessarily. They don't care about phenotype necessarily. They just care about the species, you know? And we need more of that in herpetoculture. That's, you know, that's my, my, my idea or my argument is that these days we need more of that outcrossing care for the species rather than the morph and the dollar that the morph brings. Um, and I would say, you know, who, anybody listening listener out, consider that when you're getting a, at least have one project where you're not making any money, where you're doing it for the love of the animal, just because it's a cooler, interesting animal, not because you can make a buck off it.

And it really increases the enjoyment of the project, I think. And I think that's what a lot of the stuff that Rob keeps are those kinds of projects where he, he can't sell them. He can't make money off them. And he just enjoys them for what they are and enjoys, you know, working with like-minded individuals and passing off offspring to other people that want in on those kinds of projects. So, um, that would be kind of my closing statement, you know, look at the, you know, look at these things when you're considering a project. What a jerk. What an amazing closing statement. I've got nothing.

I'm just sitting here complaining that I am empty-handed. Oh, come on. You got something, don't you? I always got something. Yeah. So, wow. No, I mean, can't argue with that closing statement. I think I will say that people potentially overblow inbreeding. I think that the idea that

if you put two animals who are related to each other together, that you're going to get inbreeding depression. And I think, you know, I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think a lot of times people inbreed quite a bit and don't even think about it that way. They buy related offspring. They buy stuff that's super great looking and without really questioning how it got that way, you, you know, and so you, you never know how far down the road you are. And, and, you know, I think, look, outcrossing is always good, but as long as you keep it in mind and you, and you pay attention, um, you know, if, if you start to have issues, um, then, then yeah, you know, you need to take a look at that

and not, not all issues that you have are, are, um, inbreeding related. Uh, you know, sometimes things just come up and it's, it's, I guess maybe, you know, it's all genetic, really. It's all, anything negative or positive is all genetically related in some way, but it may not necessarily just be because you're breeding to inbreeding two animals together or epigenetically or epigenetic. Well said, well said. So, you know, I, I think I just would encourage people to, you know, don't, don't let the, the, the idea of inbreeding and, you know, marrying your cousin or whatever, mess up your idea of, of what you're trying to accomplish in snake breeding. Um, you know, I think, I think a lot of the greatest stuff that we have in the prime examples, uh, of, of awesomeness came out of the,

out of inbreeding. So, um, yeah, not as good as yours, but that's my best, that's my best shot. Hey, when I can summon, uh, the words of Bob rock, you know, that's, uh, makes it easy. Yeah. Powerful argument. Yeah. I'm on. Yeah. I'm a old Rob stones on my side. Anyway. Um, good discussion, man. Good discussion. Yeah. Not bad. Yeah. Oh, I yeah oh i i was uh listening to morelia python's radio they had uh um frank here we go here we go thanks for thanks for going easy on my covid enfeebled brain but um frank colachico is on there yeah talking about i haven't listened to that yet so it's really cool he's okay i got to hear his talk in uh um in the rbc chicago um the tinley park he he gave uh gave a talk at the gecko symposium that i talked about knobtails at and oh man he he knocked out of the park he was like

really engaging and i mean after his talk was, I swear people are on their phones, booking flights somewhere, you know, it was pretty cool. He has the same, same kind of person, just really laid back California personality, you know, um, swears like a sailor. So if you're, this guy sounds awesome. I gotta get right up your alley, man, man. But yeah, cool guy. Um, does, does a lot of good hurt, but check out his, uh, um, YouTube channel reptilian diaries. Um, he's got a really cool, I was really, um, I, I, uh, I'm pretty good friends with, uh, who saw him as 10 bully. Who's one of his herping compadres and went on this trip to Western Australia with him. And, um, and who saw him was texting me pictures and stuff

on the trip. And I'm like, dang it, you found that. That's so awesome. They were finding some really good stuff. I, I was only really jealous, I think by the, the Centralian blue tongue skink that was in the waterfall in Karajini. I'm like, come on, you gotta be kidding me. You found that. So, you know know that was the only thing that really made me really they found a freaking sweet woma um at shark bay and a few other uh rarities on the trip but check out his channel it's pretty all right there you go all right we'll let justin cough his covid death out real quick here. And there and to be able, you know, to find a couple, uh, Willard, I in a day, that was pretty exciting, pretty fun stuff. So, um,

there's a lot of stuff in our backyard that, you know, it's a lot less expensive than a plane ticket to Australia. Maybe not as cool, but yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a little more expensive, but really in the grand scheme of things, especially if you're breeding and he makes this point in the podcast, if you're breeding expensive animals, sell one, that's probably all it'll take to get you over there. You know, it's really not that expensive, especially if you do it smart or, you know, camp out or stay in Airbnbs, things like that. It's, it's pretty, uh, I, I took me

and my three oldest kids went over to Australia and spent two weeks over there. And I think it was only five, six grand total, you know, for, for four people, that's not bad. You know, do you guys rough it? Did you guys, yeah, we tented most of the time we stayed in a hotel like two or three nights i think of the trip but uh and one one was just happened to rain that night so that was kind of nice we got out of the rain and stayed in a hotel room but i know you have the frugal gene so i do yes yeah rob rob stone does not have the frugal i mean he does he he gets pretty good deals on the airbnbs but he he's, he's usually staying in a hotel. He ain't pitching no tent like Jewelander though. He's kind of softened me a little bit. I'm not quite the, the roughest and, and you know,

I'm getting older. I'm a little, I can still rough it if I need to, but you know, I don't mind staying in a, in a bed and in an Airbnb, that's not bad. Yeah, definitely, definitely nicer on the back. And yeah, especially in your old age, you know, exactly. Yeah. So, you know, save Heidi having to give you the back rub and stuff when you get back. Exactly. And I think Frank's mentions that as well. He's like, I'm a, I'm a hotel herper now. I don't stay out in the tent anymore when I, like I did when I was in my twenties or whatever. And I, you know, I think I I'm seeing that now. And especially now that I have a little more money to spend, you know, that kind of thing, things are going well that way. So I can actually afford to do it.

Whereas back in back then I couldn't afford to do it, you know, so it works out, but I think that, uh, you know, it's kind of being one with nature and sleeping out under the stars it's it's pretty cool once in a while even if you are a little older for sure kind of gets you toughens you up a little bit and gets you back to nature you got around cruising all night and getting home at 3 a.m and and and then it's blazing hot in the day you don't want to wake up at you know 8 a.m and have it be in 90 degrees in your tent and, you know, fry your brain or something. So, you know, having a hotel with AC is not a bad thing. Is that what happened?

Is that what happened? Just too much time in the hot tent? I don't know. Maybe so. Oh, man. I'm sorry. That's so mean. I feel bad.

Heidi and I were on a, on a trip once and we, we, it was really a hot place in the middle of the desert in Arizona. And so we thought, I'll let, and it was in the middle of the summer. So we thought, let's go in, in the night. So we hike in the night and then, you know, we're, we're, we're hiking in the cool instead of the heat of the day. And it was, it was good. We, you know, we, we had a nice hike in the, in the dark and, and it was nice and cool, but then we get in,

set up camp, right. As the sun's coming up and then it's like blazing hot. So we can't sleep in the tents, no sleep, you know? So it kind of didn't work out as great as maybe we thought it was, but it worked out all right. Three of the curve ball. There you go. Well, any, any cool things you've been listening to lately? I mentioned the, the THP. You got to go check that one out with talking about the different pathogens and reptile collections and, and screening.

And actually that's one of the topics that was suggested for this podcast. We need to bring, maybe we'll bring one of these guys on on here and and uh fight about that too that'd be cool have travis on or something i think i think we could do that yeah talk about uh the the pluses and minuses pros and cons of of screening your collection all right you heard it wyman let's go you've been the the gauntlets has been thrown down travis yeah and uh let's see i i think you know there's probably a lot of good stuff out there but those yeah i've been a horrible human i'm just i've been working and listening much yeah i have not i've been trying to catch up so yeah but well there's lots of content out. There is a lot of good content, and people need to be out there listening to it

because there's a great deal of very talented, smart, amazing people producing these podcasts. Yeah. So go check them out. Thanks again to Eric and Owen and the crew for all the good work they're doing at Merle Python's Network. And I think I'm ready to go take a nap. All right. doing it really pythons network and i think i'm ready to go take a nap all right well that means dr delta variant and inbred chuck are out Nå er det en av de fleste som har kastet seg på en kastet kast. Thank you.