Reptile Fight Club - Is Outdoor Keeping Farming or Herpetoculture?

Episode Date: August 30, 2024

In this episode, Justin and Rob tackle the question, Is Outdoor Keeping Farming or Herpetoculture? Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comIGFollow Rob @ https://www.instagram.com/highplainsherp/Follow MPR Network @FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQSwag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

all right welcome to another edition of Reptile Fight Club. I am your host this evening. My name is Justin Juliner. With me, as always, is Mr. Bob Rock. Rob Stone, how are you doing? I'm doing great. Super excited. This is good.

Wave to the people. Blow them kisses. Exactly. I've got this just kind of lingering cold that's just so yeah i've still got that nice silky smooth phil wolf voice so um my daughter just went to the doctor because she has the same kind of thing just this long kind of underlying thing that pops up uh usually when i exercise or something, it gets worse and she's just started college. So she's probably has some stress that's popping it up, but

they said she had some kind of like infection or something. They gave her steroids to try to kick it. So I'm like, man, maybe I should go into, right. But what do you do? I, uh, I think I joined a water polo club today. So I, uh, there was one up on campus and I was thinking, ah, you know, I'm, I'm not a students, but, but it'd be fun to get in and play water polo again. So I went up there and they're like, oh yeah, we can, we have like a master's team, you know, you can come play with us. i'm like oh cool so that'll be cool i think i'm gonna try to play water polo again yeah yeah wow be fun that's a real workout right oh yeah yeah i'm a little uh beat i just i jumped in for about you know 45 minutes today with them and i'm like oh man i'm i'm old my shoulders all sore from throwing the ball and stuff. I'm like, oh, I am not a 21-year-old anymore.

Right? Well, there you go. Yeah. So it should be fun. What's going on with you? Oh, not too much. Well, I suppose a lot and nothing simultaneously, right? Just seemingly super busy, but nothing of real interest, I guess, from a herp perspective.

I finally, well, Carpfest is coming up in a couple of weeks, so that's exciting. I was looking, as I now want to do, right? I was looking heavily into sort of Jersey herping spots again, you know, all the spots that have disappointed us in the past, additional spots as well. And I talked to Mike Curtin quite a bit, and he's certainly on the case, and he'll get out there with us for a day at least. Same area as last year? Same areas that we've been, but I think, well, I don't know what Mike has up his sleeve. So I said he'll be leading the tour wherever he he thinks appropriate on on the day you know that first day with him and then otherwise yeah i think it'll be the spots that we've been to before and those are the spots it's just yeah it's just yeah what what's your uh main target uh pine snake a hogna eastern hognose um corn snake you know and it's it's sort of

in these similar to florida it just really strikes me as being the sort of place where um the density is super low odds of seeing stuff is relatively low i think kaufeld even talks about that in the book is yeah there's some line in there about like you know you'll you'll get skunked a lot but basically anything you find is going to be a worthwhile find. Um, and, uh, and probably beyond worm snakes and garter snakes or whatever, you know, anything other than that, which even then, you know, better to see those than to see nothing. But, um, you know, I think that's just sort of how it is there.

Yeah. And I mean, it's nice, nice to walk through the pine barrens. It's kind of aside from the little creepy crawlies, but the ticks are not enjoyable. That was, that was a rough time, you know, having all those wild. So I don't know. I'm curious if you're going to like, if you're going to try to prevent those this time, get some bug spray or wear long pants or, you know, what's. Well, I will. So I am now team long pants. there you go that's that's all right we've converted you i think so i think really it was the southern california nasty cactus situation that was the

the first time i had transitioned to that and yeah it definitely made a huge difference in terms of what my legs looked like on the back end um so i'm i'm game for that um the so yes long pants and then mike when we were talking um made mention he suggested yeah a heavy permethrin yeah uh spray for the for pants and gear and stuff like that and he even had included the comment of that i should know that if he is suggesting it as imperative, then or, you know, I guess demanding it as imperative or whatever, that I should take it seriously. You said that it's pretty gnarly this year, just seemingly like it is every year or whatever. So maybe you won't be missing that. Oh, yeah, that's I won't I won't be scratching welts for another several months.

But, yeah, that was incredible. The diversity and the number and, oh, man. The parasites. Insane, yeah. But, I mean, we found a lot of good snakes. That was a really cool trip. So I wish I could make it this year. That would be fantastic.

But I had to go and book an extra week in in northern territory right i go play around in the kimberly after you guys leave so we'll see how it works but yeah which you know heck i think you'll be the one with the last laugh for sure so i don't know yeah we'll see we'll see i don't know i it looks like maybe they're just not a lot of people that go over there, but the area I'm looking at, it doesn't have a ton of records, you know? So I don't know if it's just because people aren't going there and recording, you know, observations on INAT or what, but I mean, there's a few of course, but I, and you know, anything I see is going to be pretty cool. Yeah, it's all cool stuff. Anything's going to be neat, but. Are you thinking like Kununurra and the lake that's over that way and all that sort of stuff?

Lake Argyle, I believe it is. And I mean, it's a big lake and I don't, you know, I'm trying to formulate a plan to try to figure out, you know, what to do. And, you know, if, if any, my Australian buddies are listening and want to go herp with me, they're welcome to join me. Cause otherwise I think I'm just going to be a loner out there looking on my own. But I want to have a good plan so at least Heidi can know where I am in case I don't check in. So that's always the fun of it, I guess. But we'll see how it goes.

Yeah, no, absolutely. It'll be, it'll be an adventure either way. Yeah. And I don't, I don't think, did I, I don't think I announced it, uh, here yet, but I, I got a ticket for Australian in, uh, the spring. So going back again. So we're, uh, I'm headed to central Australia for my 50th. We're trying to see if we can have a crew to join you and stuff. We need to look into it and figure out, again, probably not the full window, but got to give you your alone time as well. Yeah, exactly.

I got to come to peace with turning 50. If I make it that far, I guess we'll see. Maybe this little underlying infection will take me out before I get to there. All things are looking like I'll probably survive it. You'll probably pull through. But, hey,

nothing's guaranteed, right? Absolutely. Make the best of what I've got and have a good time. So, yeah. Excuse me. Oh, man. My office at work has been like an icebox and I've got a few lizards there and they're just kind of like, you know.

Languishing in it. Yeah. Is this the winter cool down already you know and uh i mean it's it gets pretty warm outside but i don't know they just keep cranking the ac while the while the temperatures have gone down i don't know if you've had a cold snap the last week but it's getting down into the 40s at night you know oh wow yeah no so yeah it's been kind of i mean it's been kind of a break from the we we've had a pretty hot summer so it's been kind of nice mean it's been kind of a break from the we've had a pretty hot summer so it's been kind of nice from that aspect but yeah the lizards are not enjoying that so i think

i'm going to bring them home and and yeah have them go in the reptile room just to get them some warmth and and then there's a ready supply of crickets there i really want those uh spiny tails to to grow and do well yeah absolutely they grow pretty I I'm, I'm pretty sure there's a male in there. I'm hoping they're not both males. Cause you know, at one point it looked like I had one male, one female, but we'll see. And you know, it's always hard until no sneakers. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And, and I mean, you know, they can develop at different rates and you know, you're like, Oh, I've got a female. Oh no, there comes some.

So yeah, we'll see how it goes. But, and I'm not sure if the, I need to look into this a little more, but yeah, if the, if the ciliaris, if they, if the males will be not happy with each other in the same cage, you know, or if raising them up from, you know, juveniles is going to overcome that or what. So I guess I'll keep a closer eye on that as, as they get a little bigger, I'll take a closer look when I move them back to the house and see how they're doing. But yeah, they're really cool. I'm really enjoying them. And it's been fun to have them in the office

cause I can sit and watch them or something, you know, thinking or whatever, sitting on my computer. So it's nice to look up and have those, those guys looking back at me there. I mean, they can hide so well, you know, it's like half the time I'm searching for them, trying to figure out where they are. Yeah. I've got a pretty heavy, uh, like stick load in there. I went and found a bunch of these, uh, thin, you know, wiry branchy stuff and like old, I don't know if it's like sagebrush skeletons or what, but it's pretty nice for them because there's a lot of different places to hide, a lot of different layers and stuff. Nice. Yeah, it's pretty cool.

Yeah, it's probably just in terms of the room, like in a room space, whether we'd actually be able to see it right to be getting this this intel. But I do wonder if lizards, if there is some functionality where it's like mice, right, where if it's two males alone and there are no females, you know, specifics or even something similar if you if they could cohabit in a way that they couldn't if there were either a females in the cage with them or even just in that same room kind of we see differential responses in mice you know in those circumstances so that's sort of interesting yeah or if or if one being a male and you know developing quicker will kind of prolong the development of the other one you know and if they'll kind of look like a 20 year prolonger or something. Yeah. So it's hard to, hard to tell, but I might have to split them up a little bit. So let's see. Just to make sure, but yeah.

Fair enough. Have you seen those in the NT? Uh-huh. Yeah. Did you guys not, you've seen them? We did. Yeah. Yeah. There was one night where they were just like, the guys kept getting mad at me because I kept stopping for them. These are so cool. You guys like there's nothing, not much else going on.

So we might as well stop and look at geckos, you know, um, we did two nights on Dora. Yeah. One night was crazy. Every, you know, everything was moving. And then the other night it's like, we saw a couple of spiny tails and like a DOR frilled and that was about it. It was pretty slow. But then I do remember there was a pretty big moon out that night. So, you know, we didn't plan it.

Yeah. How's your, your birthday bash relative to the moon? Oh, you know what? That just crossed my mind. Right. As I said that, so, um, it'll be the uh let's see the later in the month so probably just as the new moon's coming on or and i think the late like if you go what a week past the the uh full moon yeah that's the ideal time from my perspective that's sort of that last quarter into new is mostly the a big appeal of that is the moon often doesn't even rise until after we'll be basically done for the night especially australia where the sun goes down so early yeah like 6 p.m yeah yeah so yeah that was uh not not great that was a shock on the first trip yeah exactly so we'll uh i'm sure even if there's a moon we'll you know it'll

probably be a good trip but yeah i'm i'm sure you guys will wait your time on the not uh not moon cycle if you know the well the less moon if you can do it so i think it's i don't know i'm curious your thought on this kind of in a trip context like this i feel like i just feel like it's better to be on the front end than the back end because it's one thing if kind of oh we left we had to leave and then you go on to kind of on our own and find awesome things or whatever. If we come on the back end and you've just had a week of finding all this great stuff and you have the exhaustion of having put in that time, maybe there's more of a mismatch between the things.

Whereas if kind of the whole group starts on the front and then maybe stragglers on the back, that maybe that's more um maybe that's more conducive than oh you've already been out for a week you've been wearing you know burning the kettle at both ends you know i mean you're always so high energy that i'm sure it wouldn't be a problem of like oh let's you guys want to go again tonight you know or whatever but like yeah you know it's probably i would think that maybe the front end looks better, even if, even regardless of the moon. Yeah.

No, I mean, I think, and a lot of my targets in central Australia in the spring are diurnal. So you have veranids and blue tongues and molochs and stuff like that, you know. And I think even like the brettles that Casey found was in the daytime. So, you know, you never know when you're going to stumble across your highest goals or your biggest targets. Yeah. Well, we'll keep an eye out whenever. What killed me is on my first trip, we were in Alice and we stayed in Simpsons, Sim, Simpson's gap a lot. And, uh, you know, we were there and it was like the wettest year on record. So it like rained pretty much every day. And the few days that it was sunny, we saw some cool stuff, but then, you know, mostly it was just kind of rained out

and not, not the best time, but, um, you know, I got back in a couple of weeks later, somebody was posting, Oh, here's a huge parenty we found at the mouth of Simpson's gap. I'm like, dang it. He lived right there. He was just hiding out. Oh, it was rainy. So, uh, you know, thinking about how many times I could have seen that animal, you know, just going in and out of that canyon. So that's your only trip there. You made the one, right? You haven't been to that area otherwise? No. So I have a, you know, uh, kind of a rough, you know, idea of where I want to be and where

the cool places are to look and at least, you know, for scenery or hikes or whatever, you know? So, and, and, you know, there's, I, you know, I guess trying to plan it out, that's always the challenge, as you know, you know, like how many like how many days do you plan to walk gorges at night looking for brett others and, you know, spend more time looking for other stuff, other places. So hopefully that happens and we find a first night, you know, exactly. Yeah. So, but I think, you know, if we can get a handful of people there and then, you know, more eyes, the better, of course. And it's, uh, it'll be a fun time. So. Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. Um, I'm, I, I, uh, got that, uh, book that you had purchased the snake into the Hopi and I need to dig into that. I haven't dug into that yet, but my, uh, aunt and uncle just published a book on my grandfather.

And he was, sorry, I guess for the listener, I'm talking to Rob now. When we went on our trip, we went down and found Hopi rattlesnakes. And so we got to talking about the Hopi. And my grandfather had been adopted into the Hopi tribe in the Cloud Clan. And so we were talking a little bit about that. And then Nipper had sent Rob a book, right? That one. The Snake Dance. Yeah.

So Rob showed me that. I'm like, I've never heard of that. So I went and purchased it as well. Because that's the thing that's always intrigued me the most about the Hopi is the snake dance, of course. Because they will do a ceremonial dance where they dance with live rattlesnakes in their mouths. Like they hold them with their mouths while they do their dance and they have somebody there kind of on the side, you know, distracting the snake and trying to keep them from getting bit, but pretty impressive,

pretty crazy, you know? So like, uh, what an, what an amazing thing that is. So yeah, I've always been fascinated by that. And I actually found a Hopi rattlesnake on the Hopi reservation several years back. But what's also interesting is they kind of go far and wide to collect the snakes for the dance. And then they, I think they release them off the mesa in one spot. So they're like, you know, you wonder how much mixing and matching, like if they're bringing, you know, Grand Canyon rattlesnakes or prairie rattlesnakes or whatever, you know, and bring them. So kind of an interesting thought. Yeah, con color. And man, that would be a brave person to dance with a con color.

But you wonder if they go south and grab you know some black rattlesnakes or or some diamondbacks or something so yeah it's hard to say i was trying to id them from some of the old photos i mean they're they didn't allow you know once photography became commonplace they stopped allowing any photography on the maces and so like you couldn't go up there and take pictures so um there's not a lot of newer you know footage and i believe that the snake dance has gone out like nobody has taken that on because the ceremonies are passed from uncle to nephew and so if no nephews want to learn it from the uncles and carry on the traditions. Then they just disappear.

And I believe the snake dance is one of those casualties. So it's kind of unfortunate. It's sad to see cultures die out like that. Right. But I guess now we have our, you know, piped in water. We don't need to do a snake dance anymore. But yeah, I mean that's they've they've been a stable civilization for a thousand years and you know the united states of america is going

on a couple hundred so yeah i think i might side with what's worked for a thousand years right but what do you do well most of those hopis the hopi uh rattlesnakes uh for clarity that um we saw on the trip were pretty aggressive right like i of all the things to be putting in your mouth i guess you're talking about oh well finding different things or whatever but like certainly you know there are things that are more um in general right amped up than others and uh yeah i'd much prefer to put a you know a gray basin rattlesnake in my mouth than a hopi right yeah at least a uh yeah the average one right yeah you know at least based on our sample size so exactly now did we ever figure out if those uh two on canyonlands were so i think the second one the larger one was, was a Hopi, either a prairie.

To me, again, it's a four-corners prairie is what that would be just because they're not – it's that isolated pocket. There's no differentiation in the population. So the first one, to me, that real distinct blotching with that fading, I think it's Concolor. I suppose there might be, you know, if you went back in its lineage, if you would say, OK, it's right on there. You know, what I would say is that when we were Phil and I were on our most recent trip and we were chatting with Kyle Vargas, the spot where that came from, or at least very close to there a place that we went that was even closer than kind of the far extent um was a place that he had highlighted as like his absolute favorite place to find concolet so we're talking about a stone's throw from that

area so again to me i there and maybe it speaks more to the actual differentiation or lack thereof amongst these forms than it is anything else that. Yeah, to me, that that first one, at least there is some God color and at a minimum, there's God color in there. Yeah, right. I don't know what it is. You know, and certainly we saw the third one up northeast of a town. So those, I think, basically relative to lists, to the extent that that's the question, right? I have it the same status that I have for the eastern coral snake that I saw but wasn't able to get a photo of. I have them as checked as I've definitively seen them um but that i would want to have a new photo if we're going to put together a book of all the venomous reptiles of the united states

all photos taken by me or whatever um to say um yeah i think i'd want a new photo for that um it's basically where i'm at you know our one from northeast of town i would say uh you know that thing certainly really tried to put a tooth into a finger and you know so the idea would be like okay so if i wasn't sufficiently cautious what i would be like well i mean you know theoretically i've never seen a live con color if you don't take these two but i'm still in the hospital with getting anti-venom you know yeah right you know people get bit by the you know uh they'll decapitate a snake and get bit. But that's not what we were talking about.

You know, fully, fully charged and put it to an injured. Yeah, absolutely. So to me, I've definitively seen him. We've all definitively seen him either way. But I just counted as wanting to get a different a new photo to the extent to have it be definitive. I still think that first one and maybe that third one that we didn't stop for that was similarly sized i think those are con color at least there's con color in there but uh yeah i do take that the second one you know is probably

a four corner spray yeah and i i mean i it wouldn't be a hard trip to meet up uh by that reservoir on the border of Utah, Wyoming. Absolutely. Probably a four or five hour drive or something, you know, do a week in there and find them up there, you know. Yeah. Where there's no nobody giving you questions, which is the funny thing to me, you know, is that was exactly my entire point relative to Abyssus to the extent that's the thing. Right. It was like, sure. We could spend all that time. There's a whole, whole range where you could potentially see them with much substantially less effort that we put in. Right. But, uh,

then we'd just be having the same conversation and certainly the peanut gallery would be having those same, I promise, you know, and it was like, I'm not engaging in that conversation. I'm not going to waste my time looking, looking up there. Right. We're, we're going to the place where that's it's that or nothing. Yeah. It's always hard when you're, you know, posting something and you're like, this is this. And then somebody is like, well, are you sure about that? You know, it's kind of a, a tricky thing. So, and, and I mean, anytime you're herping on kind of the border or the, the range where two different forms overlap or that, you know, there's three, you know, maybe, you know, like, yeah, there's like three different things happening kind of simultaneously to me.

So at least within that County, you know, if you, maybe not in the same spot, but within that, that's a big county within that county. So, yeah, I'm with you. And, you know, you know, I always I'm so generous and tolerant of people on the Internet who have their opinions and, you know, share them and didn't share them. I'm always very tolerant about. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, everybody welcomes that you know ah you you don't know what you're talking about that's what that's oh thank you for telling me oh you know for sure because you know yeah you've seen a couple before you know i don't know i mean

i always take it well yeah yeah i had to run him by louis porras you know see if he he has some insight into that i i need to contact him anyway see how he's doing but yeah yeah well um yeah i i uh i'm not sure there's there's uh you know the herp rooms running steady and sending snakes out and things are moving so yeah i can't complain about the the reptiles and they're doing well and just kind of chugging along but i've been a little preoccupied with um you know that milling the timber that i pulled out yeah um it went pretty well yeah we got uh a lot of wood it's been but it gave me a reason to buy a planer and, you know, get, uh, figure out how to get everything straight and nice and lined up and everything. So, um, and then, yeah,

it's looking really nice though. I think it should be a pretty cool project. I bought some, um, epoxy resin or acrylic resin, I guess. And I've been pouring that into, you know, knot holes and stuff like that and has kind of like a little blue coloration to it and put in some glow in the dark powder. So it just is kind of a test to see. So then when we turn off the lights, the ceiling might have a glowy effect to it. We'll see how that works. But so I don't't know it should be a

fun project but it takes a lot of time and you know i've got a lot of uh sawdust in places i didn't think i could get sawdust in so my boss pass yeah exactly the nook is okay but the cranny oh there goes the nook so yeah it's been been an adventure but yeah i'm i'm excited you know for the finished product when i can have a piece of monroe mountain up on my ceiling yeah absolutely and the wood you know it's beautiful with that kind of blue grain through it and so i'm pretty excited to see how that goes so you caught a couple flats though on the way was that did i remember that right yeah i was driving up the mountain and got a flat tire and excited to see how that goes. So you caught a couple of flats though on the way. Was that, did I remember that right? Yeah, I was driving up the mountain and got a flat tire. And then,

um, I mean, this is how cool my cousins are. So, um, the cousin that has the sawmill up on Monroe, he, he drove down and picked us up. He had us drive our car to that park where we heard. Okay. Yeah. So we parked in that same parking lot there. And then, so we just left our car there, rode up with my cousin. The next morning, his brother came up and got my keys, went down, got the tire out of the car, took it to Big O, got me a new tire, brought it back, you know, and so it was ready to go once we got down, you know, just great cousins. And then when we were waiting for my cousin, he called his sister and said, Oh, your uncle and cousin are in the parking lot. You know, if you want to go visit with them. So she drove out and her and her husband came out. And so we

got to see them. So it was kind of a nice little family reunion with my cousins. And I didn't know as well as some of the other cousins because their mom was killed. My aunt, who is my dad's sister, got killed in a train accident when, you know, after she had had her six kids. And so I never got to meet her. She she died, you know, shortly before I was born. But, yeah, it's kind of a tragic thing. And, and so I, um, they would always go with their dad's family for the most part because, you know, they didn't have as many ties, but now that they're all older and have their own families, they'll come to the

Jew land reunions and stuff. So it's been really cool to get to know them. And one of the first big trips that I got to know him on was the trip down to the Hopi reservation. So we went, yeah, we went down there and stayed at Bluebird Springs where the man who adopted my grandpa was from and stayed on the, on the land there and for a few nights. And it was pretty cool. Cause they had, my grandpa worked on the Kaibab forest. And so we found, uh, this little cave where they had put their offerings and one of the of the, you know, they had some deer skulls in there with the antlers and one of the, one of the antlers still had a tag on it from the Kaibab forest. And so it's kind of cool. And I was just reading, reading my grandpa's

journal that, or memoirs or, you know, bio, you know, whatever you want to call it. And, and he tells the story about, you know, how he got to know the Hopis and his work in, in Kanab and on the Kaibab and stuff and talking about, you know, all the, all the cool things that happened there. And yeah, it's pretty, pretty neat. So I just got through those chapters of, you know, Kanab and Kaibab. Pretty fun. but what a neat place i mean that was really neat for me and you know on this last trip and to to get into the kayabab and go down the north rim of the grand canyon with you guys that was fun to get back in

there and see kanab i if i would have known kind of the some of the things like for example my grandfather had shot this huge deer with you know this giant antler spread and it's apparently he's mounted in the ranger station down oh really yeah so we could have stopped by the ranger station and seen the deer that my grandpa got or something you know something like that would have that would have been kind of cool and in town he was you know a legend for for a long time so i was curious if anybody had heard of him you know if anybody still remembered him down there because i'm sure kanab has changed quite a bit since the 1930s when he lived there you know and he was there during the great depression and did a lot of uh scout work scouting you know and so he

he um led a lot of scout troops and stuff and so you know i'm sure a lot of the the men in town would maybe remember him if they stuck around so kind of fun yeah absolutely that's really cool it's nice to tie those family ties into herp trips you know that's kind of cool but now i have a reason to go back down there and see you know, that's kind of cool. But now I have a reason to go back down there and see, you know, see some of these things. So it's kind of fun. Well, um, maybe enough of this, uh, my, uh, reminiscing nonsense, maybe fight about a herp topic. Well, our old, uh, good friend, Keith McPeak, um, suggested this topic. And so I thought, you know, let's, let's, uh, get Keith on here, but he, he was a little, uh, microphone shy. He didn't want to come on. He said, we do a better job now. I fully disagree with that, but I didn't want to twist his

arm too much, but yeah. So we'll, we'll miss you this time, Keith, but next time you'll have to come on. So we appreciate the suggestion though, but he was kind of, um, talking, this time, Keith, but next time you'll have to come on. So we appreciate the suggestion, though. He was kind of talking about whether or not somebody that breeds something in an outdoor enclosure, especially if they have access to the food and stuff outside or if you're not really having to do much, if you can really say, I bred these. Or if you're just saying, I know, I'm I farm these or, you know, that kind of thing is keeping outdoors similar to like farm bread rather than captive bread and born. You know, is there a distinction between keeping outdoors and keeping indoors in that regard? So I don't know, does that sound like a fun topic to discuss? I mean, sure. This feels like, you know, some yet another function either that we've talked to Ron about or that Ron can, would certainly have a voice on, but we can

bandy it about, I have an instant sort of thought, but that I would think would be a kind of a critical uh dichotomy from my perspective but maybe maybe you will agree or disagree so yeah we might as well chat through it a little bit sounds good should we flip a coin sure we can defend uh you know farming is captive breeding or vice versa so go ahead and call the coin toss there tails ah your uh luck has uh this week it's head so all right um let's see i i guess uh maybe i'll defend outdoor keeping and just kind of take that uh you know, be the proponent of outdoor keeping is captive breeding and such. So if that works for you. Yeah, I suppose so. Okay. Let me think. Hold on. I need to process through this in terms of what I would. How do you phrase that? Right. Yeah.

Yeah. And I mean, I can go first, I guess, yeah. Yeah. And I, I mean, I can go first, I guess. Okay. Yeah. Maybe just to promote the conversation, the thing that I want to say that I think is sort of the critical distinction and then we can work from there, you know, but you, how about you go ahead. And then, well, I mean, if you, if you're ready to state that we could, we could start off with that too, you know? Sure. Or do you think it'd be fit fit better later on no i think it's fair i think it's the important you know really maybe

it's even definitional to the sort of argument so i suppose it's fair to throw it out would be uh if we're talking specifically in situ then i would think that uh yeah certainly that's what we're talking you know we picture it right with the indonesia is what comes to mind right we talk about the farm bred animals in indonesia and especially if we're talking about i mean some of that stuff really looks like sort of 1930s birdcage style on top of concrete you know pilings or whatever with maybe a fixture in there um if we're talking about something that then is native to jakarta or sumatra that exact condition in those you know that same space yeah i mean i think that's that's

farming right necessarily if we're talking about something that isn't actually tied to that space meaning even condos in that are over you know in uh new guinea um as a new guinea and australia as opposed to being in jakarta to me so there's probably equatorial similarity for most of those things i don't know what the elevational similarity is but i think right chondros are lower generally speaking in new guinea um so that there's probably some similarity, uh, there it's probably not that as dissimilar as it could be, but I guess I'm just presenting it as it's a sliding scale of like, sure. Keith, um, you know, breeding black rat snakes outside in New Jersey, Northern New Jersey is different than Keith breeding to my mind.

Um, even pine snakes that are from further south in new jersey and you know further to the south in the united states those would be two different those are probably two different things to me um let alone then saying okay is breeding heath monitors or something in northern new jersey that's yeah those that's the continuum right um yeah well. Well, I mean, I guess I would, I would say, you know, you know, looking at these, like you said, you know, the bird cages in a battery of cement blocks or whatever that, you know, that's pretty far from natural. Now, you know, the environmental conditions, the heat, the sun, the, you know, the rain or whatever probably matches pretty well what they're used to.

And, and I think that's kind of what we strive for in our herp rooms as well. You know, we want to find those elements that are critical to, to keep them happy. So they lay eggs, you know, so, and I think, you know, keeping outside doesn't necessarily guarantee. I, I, I just think about, you know, Frank Reedus and he was, you know, he kept some odatria, some of the smaller monitors outside. And he said they turned into a different animal. Like they were always worried about predators. They weren't as reliable in breeding. They took longer to, you know, and that kind of thing. And he said indoors, it was a much more controlled environment because you could just give them heat. You know, he found those critical needs of heat and food to be kind

of the main factors that you needed to kind of, you know, pump them out for lack of a better term there. So, you know, I, I guess I, I still see a lot of work going into, and that's kind of the aspect, right? Like, I guess I would see, you know, maybe more farming would be like having a big area and just going through and collecting gravid females and waiting for them to lay and then putting them back out. You know, they're eating wild food. They're, you know, doing their own thing in the nature. You know, like a lot of the, the ball pythons, they would just pull in, um, gravid females, let them lay their eggs and then throw them back out. You know, sometimes we can, you know, emaciated state and they might get eaten by something and who knows if they put them back where they found them, you know, that kind of thing. So, um, so I, I think, you know, like you said,

there's a sliding scale and there's a lot of different aspects to this that, you know, I think we've discussed, we've discussed some of them before, but, um, I mean, first off, I don't think putting something outside is necessarily like going to be better in all cases. And you might have to work harder outside than you would inside, you know, even though you have maybe free light and free heat, you know, that kind of thing. Um, but as Ron said, you know, if he, if you put the cages in the wrong spot in your yard, you might have a giant tree shading them for, you know, the important part of the year when you need the sun to shine on them. So, you know, that it, uh, yeah, I think there is, there is that sliding scale.

I'll just state that, I guess, up front. Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing about keeping outside, to me, and I don't know that this goes to my point, but the thing that I know both Frank, Ron, you know, Bert talked about a lot are the sort of externalities that absent real problems shouldn't be a problem inside in terms of sort of predation from wild other wild animals. Right. Either native or introduced, you know, and that sort of interactivity with the environment is something that we can control a lot more inside of a inside the house than outside right you know a raccoon is probably not going to break into your herp room and start you know ripping open cages whereas it you know it's only a the quality of your chicken wire outside potentially yeah yeah and i mean alan or pashy learned that the hard way he had a bunch of shinosaurus and and the raccoon got in and bit the head off of every one of them like just killed them like not not eating them not they weren't

just gone they were all decapitated lying in the cage like what a frustrating thing right after he put it sank a lot of money into you know the project and caging and all that stuff and then all of a sudden yeah it's gone in one night of a raccoon's murderous rage. Yeah. I mean, that's the sort of thing where it's actually, I think when we see success stories, particularly in herps and things, so much of it is the long time scale. And it is really about like, it's the ability to be resilient through something like that, let alone many somethings like that, that really are the testament to the people that have success in the long run. And maybe I guess that's where I would say there is some farming aspect to it.

And maybe it's not negative, right? It's not pejorative to say that it's farming is that both reptiles and the sort of things that go into it, like if people have rodents or what, you know, all those sorts of things, it's, it's really the culmination of, you know, each day's work that turns into a season. And it's the culmination of many seasons that turn into a breeding project or program. And then it's the culmination of all those different projects over decades that turn into you know making people you know legends within the the community yeah it's you know that that's the people that we're really talking about and it's um it's the um i think maybe i don't know i've just always been

impressed by the ability to show up every day you know and that's really what it takes and it it's not the flashy it's like there you know if inevitably if someone comes on super hot and heavy and is super flashy and that's it you know kind of flash over substance right yeah we can see that in the in the sense that it's like okay well we'll check let's check in in five years yeah like if that if you give somebody that reaction like okay how impressed am i well we'll check in in five years and see if you give somebody that reaction, like, OK, how impressed am I? Well, we'll check in in five years and see if you're still even like reptiles, you know. And that's sort of a barometer for entry or for, you know, respect in some ways.

Not that's not to say, you know, whatever. It's just my own standard kind of at this point is saying, like, hey, let's work on these timescales because our timescales are still so short compared to reptiles. You know, let's talk about it and say like, we're saying, Oh, these things are basically the same. They're only 2 billion years of genetic difference divergent. Right. And it's like, and we will say, Oh, that's not enough to call that a different thing. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I, I, I lost my train of thought there. I was, you know, I got pretty far afield on you, so I apologize. No, that's all good. Um, but I,

you know, I, I think that, um, when I think about farming and, you know, true farming, I think about, you know, like cattle ranching or cattle farming where they turn them out on the mountain and then they round them up and bring them back in. And, you know, some will have had calves and things like that. And then they'll finish them in a, you know, like a stockyard or whatever stockyard. Yeah. And, you know, they'll have losses, they'll have gains, but, you know, like if you're a good cattle rancher. Now, that isn't to say that they're working with, you know, wild type animals like these are selectively bred for, you know, thousands, hundreds and thousands of years, maybe. And, you know, domestication of livestock is a pretty interesting thing. And, you know, with working at an agricultural institution and having, you know, being in the animal dairy and veterinary sciences department, I hear a lot of talk about, you know,

the best kind of diet to give them and nutrition and what kind of supplements and how to keep them out of poisonous plants and, you know, that kind of thing. So it's really an interesting, I've learned a lot more than farming than I thought I would as a virologist, you know, that kind of thing. So it's, it's really an interesting, uh, I've, I've learned a lot more than farming than I thought I would as a virologist, you know, and that kind of thing. So, but, uh, yeah, to think that, uh, we're just kind of letting nature take its course or, you know, no, we're, we're giving them their best leg up and we're putting a lot of energy into this. So maybe from that aspect, you know, you could maybe say keeping them outdoors is, is akin to farming, but I don't know. I think we, a lot of people still have to put a lot of food and, you know, feed them and, and put a lot of time and energy into

that aspect of it. Um, one other, uh, um, example I can think of where the species do a little better outdoors than indoors. At least this was the case, um, down in Southern California, but one of my friends keeps a gurney outside and, and, uh, says that he has better success keeping them outside versus inside, which is, you know, interesting, you know, know he says they they breed more frequently you know um in regards to having maybe a few clutches a year two clutches a year something like that litters a year i guess i should say not clutches but so um you know i think there are some species that would definitely uh benefit from living outside and maybe i mean obviously frank kept his larger monitors outside

so it wasn't like all of veranus you know it may be just the odate the odatria the smaller ones but so i don't know and and looking at uh who's the guy that just took over that farm in indonesia that uh is doing a lot of the Chris, Chris Applin. Yeah. Yeah. He's kind of a monitor nut and he, he's like getting, I see, I keep seeing posts of him collecting eggs from Veranus Bakari, the black tree monitor and green tree monitor, all sorts of tree monitors and larger monitors. You know, he's seems to be,

you know, either coming into a good thing or, or doing very well with this. Uh, and I saw him working on a bunch of nest boxes, like out of these big bamboo poles or whatever he was making sections and collecting eggs out of these bamboo nest boxes that he was building. So, I mean, you still have to figure out how to, uh, um, you know, collect the eggs and probably artificially incubate them and things like that. So if you're artificially incubating eggs, I don't necessarily think of that as farming. You know, I would think of like, um, I had a friend down in Salt Lake city that would, uh, keep Russian tortoises outside.

And every spring you'd go out and have little babies crawling around in his yard. And it's like, okay, so he doesn't have to really do anything for that. They just kind of nest in the ground, the babies pop out and, you know, he collects them and sells a few of them or something. So it's, you know, that, that to me is more of a, of a true farming, but I don't think there's many instances of that in herpetoculture where you just go out and collect babies when the time is right or whatever in the spring. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think part of the thing that when you were talking about Chris's, the stuff Chris Applin's doing and how he's artificially incubating outside of where he's keeping the animals, right? Part of that is probably desire for control.

The other part of it is the ability to recreate the particular microhabitat that's required to successfully incubate. And maybe it's possible to get them to lay a clutch in an area that doesn't actually – I would say in the monitor context that, you know, i think that's harder there than it is with most other things in terms of getting them to successfully deposit those eggs that's probably you know that's not nothing for sure um getting successful nesting on them uh so that they can be hatched you know that that is not nothing uh at the same time right the russian tortoise example that you're providing right there, the microhabitat exists within the environment that's being provided to at least hatch some of them. Right. So that does make some sense.

So part of it on the one hand, right, it's are we providing them the essentially are we just putting a cage around nature and then seeing how they do in that? And, you know, on the other hand, it's saying, OK, well, there it's definitely not putting a cage around nature and then seeing how they do in that and you know on the other hand it's saying okay well they're it's definitely not putting a cage around nature we have a cage that's in nature and so it's you know helios we we have access to the sun for better and worse um you know in the outdoor climatic conditions and things but that doesn't necessarily mean you know that it's those again i think it goes back to the sliding scale the other thing that jumped to mind as we were talking through that is saying like just the the thermo and food stability based on size i think really is something to that right so that like what are the things that probably are most the generalists that do well as invasive species tend to be larger and more uh amenable

to a varied diet right those things are more likely to do well. And especially if then there aren't particular conditions about how the eggs need to be nested in a certain type of material to successfully hatch. We don't have shell deterioration associated with like, oh, they need to be in an acidic, you know, something that's sort of either basic or acidic medium that's sort of leaching some of that calcium out of the shell and causing it to be weaker so they can successfully hatch, right? A water monitor or a tegu or a green iguana or those things that have shown great resilience to be able to do these things in a variety of conditions tend to be what they tend to be generalists that get bigger right and i think that makes them more stable in the environment you know more resilient to uh temperature fluctuations humidity fluctuations all those things they have a greater capacity to do that so um yeah i think there's something to that part of it too so that the odatria more likely to not do well i would suggest that someone who's doing

agurnia really successfully outside has really presumably in the context of like that's not a cage around nature that's a cage in nature um you know that's someone who's watching those animals and really has attuned their captive cage despite being outside to the needs of those animals because they're not what i'm talking about right that's a small lizard that's going to require a lot of inputs and it's easy to overdo it particularly with heat heat cold you know uh wet and cold especially you know those not that southern california depending where where you're at right um there's more or less of a risk of that right but yeah um exactly yeah and i mean i And I mean, I think, you know,

we think, Oh, uh, you know, it's hot in Las Vegas and it's hot in Australia. So therefore I can just put anything outdoors that I can. And, you know, Australia and the Australian species would do great in Vegas, you know, and that's, you know, I think, you know, sometimes we get a little simplistic in our thinking. Now, if, if all we're doing is harvesting the sun and, you know, sometimes we get a little simplistic in our thinking. Now, if all we're doing is harvesting the sun and, you know, a really hot, you know, basking spot, then maybe an indoor cage that has, you know, access to that sunlight and, um, accomplish the same goal. But, um, you know, you do kind of have, have that risk of, of nature. And yeah, the, the other thing that would really scare me about keeping outdoors is like the ants, you know, things like that. Right. It's one thing to say a raccoon it's another to say yeah ants let alone fire ants but you know all this stuff absolutely

so i think you're totally right that's a i'm sure that's a continual worry for some outdoor keepers and things like that um i you know i do think that there is a lot of farming aspect in florida where you know where you can keep stuff you know like alligators or turtles or something in an outdoor pond and and then the babies just you know hatch and you might throw some pellets into the pond to to feed the kind of boost the yeah yeah try and boost your results yeah and you might put a hay bale out in the field for the cows to eat. So I do think that there are some aspects, primarily turtle, you know, Chelonian rearing that definitely utilize nature and let nature kind of do the work for them. And they incubate in the ground and people just kind of go out and harvest the babies when they when they show up so you know definitely there are some aspects in herpetoculture that are that are

farming related but i think with the um snakes and lizard species those are probably less less common other than maybe the invasives you know i think of right young farmer ron out collecting anolis you know the big cuban anoles or night anoles in the trees and stuff and that was that's some pretty uh interesting stories that he's got finding absolutely species there and and then he'd run them to the animal dealers and sell them wholesale to them you know so yeah there's definitely some and and i think people continue with the tegus and things like that so absolutely excuse me yeah bless you couldn't get to the mute button fast enough oh my goodness yeah um but you know i guess you wonder sometimes because it seems like, you know, people are intentionally releasing some species so they can have them become established and then just go collect from the wild.

You know, the tegus, the. I think we can call that farming. How about. Yeah, exactly. We call that, you know, panther chameleons. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Jackson's. Yeah. That are just. And I mean, some are more destructive than others, like the chameleons are kind of they don't really disperse very widely. They're kind of in a small area and they, you know, most of them are on private land. So you might get shot trying to go check them out in the wild. I've heard stories of that so um but uh things like tegus are horribly you know and iguanas are a big problem down in florida and and give you know reptile people a bad name and you know obviously there's certain places that are you know maybe more offenders than others

and i've heard you can go down like you know by the strictly area and find all sorts of different species that you know they i don't know so they all sorts of different species that, you know, they, I don't know. So they were half dead. So they threw them in the trash can and well, they bounced back. Yeah. And, you know, I think reptiles are pretty, pretty tough when they have what they need, you know? So, um, yeah, the other thing, and I, you know, I don't, I don't even know if this goes to, you know, what side probably goes more to your side, but I think about, you know, like my yard with grasshoppers and stuff like that, you would have to be pretty sure that, uh, your neighbors weren't spraying for grass, you know, spraying the insects and stuff like that. Cause, or, or that the grasshoppers don't have a huge you know intestinal worm in them because i've seen a few you know dead grasshoppers parasites yeah i will catch and i only have one thing that'll you know that takes them or whatever but yeah i do feed those

out and i have been for a decade and yeah he does great despite you know urban living and whatever and knowing that like even historically where i am that you know i saw it in the garage right there is you know all sorts of poisons in the garage and whatever and you know he's still um so who knows what the the half-life and turnover is on that stuff even right but um and i've seen what you're talking some of those gnarly worms coming out of dead grasshoppers. Yeah, that's something. So, I mean, that ties in more with farming, I think, than herpetoculture. You're having to worm your, you know, farmed offspring or something because they're eating wild insects that might have parasites or something. And, you know, it's hard to say whether or not parasites in our local grasshoppers would constitute or translate into parasites for a reptile.

I mean, obviously, I think Dustin's post really fascinated me when they found that rat snake. Oh, the subocularis yeah yeah the ticks specific to that species of snake and really the tail of that specific snake it's like this it's almost like they're they're turning into a rattlesnake or yeah pine cone at the end of their tail or something. Maybe that's how the spider-tailed viper got just merged with a spider. But yeah, kind of really an interesting thing. But you're probably not going to get those same tail ticks on any other species in the area because they're specific for sub-ox. So kind of a crazy little dynamic. those same tail ticks on any other species in the area because they're specific for sub box so kind of a crazy little dynamic and and a lot of uh parasite life cycles are like that you know

and sometimes they need two natural hosts and they go through all these different stages pretty it's a bird then into the yeah yeah absolutely or a cow eats it and poops it out and then a lizard gets it you know like what the heck how did that out and then a lizard gets it, you know, like, what the heck? How did that even happen? And then the bird gets it from the lizard, you know, and then the bird defecates and it's back into life cycles, you know, uh, tapeworms and others or other sort of intestinal, uh, worms and parasites. So pretty fascinating. Um, but you know, that's, I guess there's a lot of things that would give me pause trying to farm reptiles. You know, I guess the idea of it's easy to just release something you know release a bunch of something and then go back and collect it you know but the ecological damage you know that kind of thing you know if you were looking to make cane toed purses or wallets or whatever you know and that

was your goal and releasing them in australia you'd have a pretty good business model, but you know, what, the cost of that is, is massive. Oh yeah. Incalculable is insane. And you know, to, to think about, you know, it's the stuff of dreams to think about going and herping Australia before the advent of the cane toad and seeing all the big monitor lizards up in the Northern territory or or or cans or whatever so it does i mean so part of the interesting things to that book venom that i think we talked about this before i know i've talked about it someplace you know before that's basically talking about coastal taipan uh the development of taipan anti-venom um i know in

there it really gives a history in terms of something that I, you know, we've had sort of, to me, the history of cane toads in Australia, in terms of the problem that we have now, it was really interesting to get more granularity around what that actually looked like,

what the years were, where it was, those different sorts of things. And to have a sense for scale now, so that like, it's not like they morph out and they're in it inexorably march you know in a particular direction of the you know that is otherwise absent cane toads you know at this point so um that was super interesting to

see sort of the time scale that we're talking about there um i'd have to re-pull it up but i believe we're talking about like the mid-20s so like a hundred basically a hundred years ago now yeah to be to see the scale that we're at uh at this point um so yeah super interesting you know and sort of who was that making that decision why did they make that decision all those things it goes into pretty good granularity on that and it's it's super interesting the part i was uh that i was jumping to from where that was was actually i think in the areas now it seems like there's probably this 20 to 30 year period of novelty right and they're trying to shorten that in areas where they're just reaching by trying to um expose you know non-lethally expose them right the predators the medium to large monitors and things you know, non-lethally expose them, right? The predators, the medium to large monitors and things, you know, giving them sublethal doses, little ones, giving them a distaste for them.

But that being said, I kind of wonder, you know, there are still monitors around cans. You know, who knows, you know, what it would look like, relatively speaking. So it's kind of becomes this question of like, okay, are we, we're really seeing this impact and I'm not denying that at all, but it's saying, okay, maybe actually there's a natural bounce back. Right. That's sort of how nature tends to work is, you know, there's a strong force and there's an oppositional force that usually, unless it just totally annihilated it, there's usually an oppositional force.

So hopefully maybe I'm just trying to be positive and say that like well the nt maybe is on the rebound from that where it maybe the eastern side of wa is in for it a little bit yeah that's what uh makes me worry you know i'd like to get in and see the rough scales before you know just in case the right and that's so limited negative impact yeah so that's the struggle, I guess. And yeah, I mean, you think about all the millions and millions of dollars that have been sunk into research on cane toads and an ounce of prevention. A little critical thinking on that project could have avoided all this. It didn't sound like the groups that were making those decisions were doing much critical thinking, with all due respect.

It's easy to look back and say, oh, what a stupid thing. How dare you make that mistake? But who would have called the long-term consequences of that action? You probably just think, if they don't eat the cane beetles, they'll, they'll die and they won't, you know, they'll, they'll just disappear. And, you know, maybe they did put in some critical thought, but yeah, it's, it's easy to condemn them now, but it's, but it is, uh, um, a hundred years ago and we have the benefit of the knowledge of today, you know, and so that's a little, maybe unfair, but at the same time, it's like, what were you thinking? Beatles up high, cane toads down low.

How are you thinking this is going to help? I don't even like the Beatles. I think maybe the part hearing about it that pulls me back because generally speaking, yeah, I'm totally with that perspective. I think certainly maybe I was just persuaded by the text. But it sounds like we weren't even talking about really talking about scientists. You know, this was sort of politicians going for an easy, a quote, easy win that then a century later is still totally has devastated literally millions of animals, you know, native wildlife in Australia at this point. But I mean, rabbits, same deal, right? You know, and that was more just release bats and yeah maybe we'll see a camel and you know animals yeah yeah i saw tracks i never saw the camels but yeah they're out there they're around so yeah and i

mean as far as you know environmental destructive you know there's some aspects of them that are bad but for the most part they seem to be maybe somewhat innocuous you know compared to not as bad as yeah or yeah certainly cats right that i mean that's the number one and really i mean you know i'm sorry cat lovers but like if you want a, move to somewhere that's well, I don't know if there's many places that are great for cats because cats are just such good predators. You know, it's it's kind of crazy to think of that. But you're really pushing us out here now. That's true. That's true. We've gone far afield of farming but you know i i think i guess that that's kind of the consequence of this idea that oh i can just put something into the environment that will be supported here and you know i mean that wouldn't be maybe the worst thing in the world if you know there was

a population of russian tortoises breeding and you know surviving in utah somewhere but at the same time they don't belong there. So it is not the best thing and wouldn't be a great thing to have. So I don't know. As much as I would love to see a big monitor lizard strolling through the desert of Las Vegas, it would be not a good thing to have those there. And they don't belong there. And they're not part of the ecological know the ecological system so um i don't know i mean florida is kind of beyond wrecked it's it's

kind of it's uh it's kind of a free-for-all down there yeah exactly and i mean not least of all is the environmental destruction yeah exactly you mentioned uh you know cane toads and and and whether or not we'd see big monitor lizards if it weren't for the cane toads. But who knows, maybe all the development and agriculture and things like that would have driven them out anyway. So, you know, you can probably still see them in primary rainforests and things like that. But yeah, otherwise it might be slim pick pickings although there are some more adaptable than others and they might be okay in the urban environment but you know it's definitely a tricky and and complex thing to think about so i guess the main point is don't release things in the

with the i with the intention of collecting their offspring down the road to make a buck, you know, at the whole tailors. Yeah, that's not a great model, definitely, of farming of reptiles. And frankly, I mean, I think cows are a horrible thing to farm in America, you know. Why didn't we just farm bison or something, you know, adapt a bison to be a little less cantankerous, a little more manageable and, you know, farm bison or something you know adaptive bison to be a little less cantankerous a little more manageable and you know farm bison they live on the live in the environment anyway and they're they don't you don't have to clear cut forest for them you know they could just run through the the uh well there's not much land in the great plains either it's all farmland so you wouldn't want buffalo running through your farmland either so it's a tricky balance you know that's uh that's i guess

the the main thing here wow well any other uh we exhaust i mean i mean there's obviously lots of different yeah so many aspects i think we're hitting on some ones that maybe we haven't really talked about before. And, you know, hopefully this is... Yeah, we definitely said some new stuff. Absolutely. You know, I think, yeah, we were in old ground, but we've carved new paths through it. You know, new neural networks and things. So hopefully, I think that's sort of the idea here, you know, sort of our short shows or whatever, is really to toss out the downside of keeping or working in captivity with bigger reptiles.

If they're out, they're more likely to be a problem, this sort of thing. Yeah. I mean, you look at sulcatas and they just bulldoze through just about anything. You have to have a pretty intensive fence system to keep them in anywhere. And I mean, again, like your tortoise gets loose and somebody runs into it are you at fault you know you for that damage to their vehicle or for whatever happens so that's don't even put that in no one's mind i know even as an insurance man i don't think you've got that one through well i you know we were talking about, uh, horses at, at one of the, um, I think

our faculty retreat or whatever. And, and, you know, this, this guy, his father-in-law had horses and they would, they got loose and a car hit into one and then sued, you know, sued the farmer because his horse shouldn't be on the road. It should be in, you know, in a, in a fence. And, and so, you know, who, you know, if you're hitting a in a fence and and so you know who you know if you're hitting a horse i could understand both sides of that like the farmer's like hey i you know i didn't i didn't release him he you know he got loose and so there's that dynamic of it too or

you know you negligence versus active god exactly and i guess if you could go back and figure out who released that burmese python into the Everglades, that angry, gravid female, you know, maybe you could hold them accountable. I mean, you know, they do that for forest fires that cause a bunch of damage. Yeah. But again, you don't know what's going to happen over the next 30 years. You can't just predict that, I guess. So, well, hopefully Keith is smiling right now and we hit on some of the things that he wanted us to cover. And if not, he can let us know and we can get him on here or he can set us in a better direction down the road.

But it's, you know, I think trying to tease out different aspects of these topics is really a, um, part of the fun too, you know, and, uh, getting different guests on to talk about those things. So yeah, we'll have some, some more guests soon and we'll, we'll get some more people on. I think, uh, we both get busy and it's, you know, oh yeah, we got to record this week and scramble to get a show together or something. But I think it turns out OK. Ad hoc things are better than nothing. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Give you something to listen to on your commute or if it if it sucks, let us know, too. Like, what are you guys doing? Come on. And then you can come on and show us how it's done. Exactly right. on and then you can come on and show us how it's done exactly right yeah but uh i don't know anything uh cool and in herpetoculture that you've seen lately or um yeah so i've been really digging there's an instagram account that i think is called nj herping you know again with the new jersey focus that uh man seems like he's turning up a lot of really cool Pine Barrens critters and things. So that's pretty cool.

That's something that jumped out to me. And then, you know, stoked on Australia. So now we finally have reached the point where that's sort of the trip focus. I think, you know, in terms of planning and things, it's one thing when there's one trip that we're focused on. You know, we bought the tickets eight months in advance and all these things and looking at it and that becomes the, the focal point. So that by the time the trip comes, I'm actually over it and it requires the excitement and success of it happening to, to make me reinvest, um, this, you know, this year we've, we've been going.

So it's, uh, yeah, I'm just kind of now really super digging into the australia stuff for i think part of that is a reflection on the fact that having been there and had success before i i feel pretty comfortable i've already it's re-looking at it's not learning you know it's not um initial exposure so i think that's part of it too but uh yeah i mean the nt is very cool yeah yeah maybe maybe maybe the NT is very cool. Yeah. Maybe, maybe, maybe the, I know we won't permanently change your mind off of WA as to the darwin because that was fraught with all the yeah the book outside book stuff and that stress and that you know madness basically you know that took a lot of time and energy and and just really you know kind of ended that sour you know ended

on a sour note so you know i'm i'm very excited to get back there and actually do some real herping in Kakadu where we were there for a day. What are you going to do in a day? Most of it was driving. Some pretty hairy driving at night because driving back from Kakadu to Darwin and there's just macropods jumping across the road here left and right you know and you're trying to dodge little uh little jumping uh kangaroos and wallabies and stuff so that was a little intense too so um but yeah i'm definitely looking forward

to getting back out there and and spending more time in you know know, that area, the escarpment land. Yeah, it's fantastic. And, and I, you know, I'm, I really want to, um, you know, I don't know if I can improve my endurance, but I want to, you know, spend as much time herping as possible and as little time, you know, um, sleeping or driving or whatever, you know, that like, that's the goal is to just keep, keep going power, maximize and see stuff. So, and I'm, I'm planning when I'm on my own, I'm, I'm planning if I see something, I'm just going to sit and watch it, you know, and just enjoy it, take it in, sleep on the sleep on the trail or something next to it. I don't know, like just enjoy it, you know?

So I'm, I'm definitely looking forward to getting back out there. It's exciting, but yeah, I, uh, haven't, I don't know. I haven't seen a lot of Australian focused stuff. Like I haven't seen, heard many, uh, episodes coming out from the Australian herpetoculture podcast and stuff like that. So I'm kind of missing that a little bit and wanting to hear some Australian reptile chatter. Right. So. That would be good. Yeah. Well, I guess we'll thank the Morelia Python Radio Network and Eric and Owen for all they do and letting us have a place in their little podcast umbrella.

So we enjoy those guys. And I don't know, I enjoyed listening to Carpets and Coffee yesterday or, you know, when is when with podcasts. But it's always fun to hear those guys chat and, and talk about things, but so check them out. Check it. If you're listening to this, you probably already listened to them, but, um, I, I guess I I've been on a, I don't know. I, I keep thinking, you know, people, you know, if they see this podcast, they know who we are, but maybe if you don't know, you can check out my website, Australian addiction.com. I had somebody go on there and say, Hey, I was looking at your available page and I see some stuff from 2015. I'm like, well, no, my available page should have been

updated. I mean, I know I updated it in 2024 at some point. And so I'm like, Oh, that's weird. I don't know how you got there, but maybe a search is not the best way. But if you go to AustralianAddiction.com, unless you have your cookies set back from 2015, you should see current stuff there. And then JG Julander on Instagram, YouTube, Justin Julander on Facebook. But I guess if you're into reptileile stuff look at my instagram because that's the stuff that goes over to facebook anyway uh where where can people find you rob um high plains herp on instagram and uh rhino rats.com highplanesherp.com sends you to the same place just different urls to go to the same place which is mostly the uh i need to make some additions based on it maybe that's a it's

sort of a winter project but basically that's just you know wild herb photos that don't get made to look like i drew them with a crayon you know if they're posted on instagram or on facebook where it's like i i promise that's a way more compelling photo. But yeah, it doesn't just crush them out. But I need to add some new stuff there or whatever. But yeah, check it out. Yeah. Cool.

All right. Well, thanks for listening. We'll catch you again next time for Reptile Fight Club. Peace out.