Reptile Fight Club - Justin & Rob Check-in

Episode Date: July 10, 2026

In this episode, Justin and Rob check on for some updates of what's been going on. Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comIG https://www.instagram.com/jgjulander/Follow Rob @ https://www.instagram.com/highplainsherp/Follow MPR Network @FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQSwag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

All right, welcome to Reptile Fight Club. Justin and Rob here, getting ready to check in a bit about various topics, what's on our mind, the hot takes, if you will. Get ready for some good stuff, right? Absolutely. Yeah, we had a guest that needed to switch things around a bit, so we figured we'd have a little check-in. So I guess I'll check in on Rob first. How are you doing? I am well.

Excellent, excellent. I'm excited to chat with you. I feel like we've had, for the most part, guests for the last seven or eight shows, something like that. Yeah. That's really good. I think there's been a ton of interesting stuff. But the downside is that it always feels a little bit like we don't have time to, as much time and space to kind of chat through stuff. Right. Yeah, it's been really nice. You've had a heck of a lineup for us, and I really appreciate your efforts there. It's been really some really great guests and some interesting topics for sure. So that's been nice. Yeah. Thanks for your efforts there and scheduling all those. And it's coming on. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So, well, um, it's coming on. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So, well, um,

What's, I guess, scratching your brain these days? Is that a common saying? I had a pool party. I'm a little drained for a sort of round. Red eyes, you know, chlorine eyes. I can never just sit and float around in the pool. I have to like swim around or, you know, I don't know. I'm a swimmer, so I got to get a swim.

Dunk your fellow guests, etc. Yeah, maybe so. I tried, have you seen those? dodds that like they do from super high up cliffs or whatever and they jump and do all these crazy flips and then they basically put their hands and their feet together so they're in kind of an umbrella shape or you shape or upside down you and n i don't know and then they go in like that so i tried that but it just ended up with me face planting and getting water you know forced up my nose so that was fun i guess i need some work on my dodds uh death dives glad i tried i

off the low dive and not the high dive first. Yeah, good times. That's pretty good. I like it. Not acting like a 50-year-old, I guess, but that's right. The age is just in your head, right? Yeah. Yeah, so what is occupying your thoughts these days, herb-wise? I think I've been thinking a lot about the Louisiana Mississippi.

Sippy trip and then all the success as detailed, you know, as we're seeing on social media and then was just talking with Jordan earlier in the week and I understand you had a similar conversation around the productivity of West Texas over the last two to three weeks. It seems like a lot of alternate being turned up and kind of the first thought process that it led me down was the import of flexibility when herping that area. And I think flexibility meaning amenability to moving quickly and directionally based on weather conditions. And the thing that struck me and Jordan was somewhat willing to accept this, he being

a West Texas expert with me being a West Texas novice, you know, maybe novice plus is I guess how I would frame it. I'm thinking that a portion of that is that because we're limited, so limited, based on limited public lands and methodologies that we can employ, right, walking cuts, when we're herping, we are only limited in West Texas to finding animals that are actively moving. Right? And whether, I don't know that we have great estimates in terms of scientific literature, much less that I'm aware of them if they do exist,

that really highlight that. But it draws to me in contrast areas where there's a lot of public land and we're looking for species that are findable when they're estivating, right? Or at least somewhat findable when they're estimating. So drawing a comparison between going to southeast Arizona and going to West Texas would be,

when we're in West Texas, we're looking at, I don't know, call it the 5 to 15% of a day or a week or whatever it might be, that her reptiles up inactive and actively moving, let alone on the face of a cut, you know, navigating that space. Whereas in West Texas, if we're looking for a tiger rattlesnake, sure, we might find them on the road. That's where we've seen one.

And it's, you know, interacting in the space. Okay, that's in that 5-15%. But we also have the possibility to be in Habitat looking for it estivating under my favorite, at the perfect limb cracks or rattlesnake rocks or whatever. We have that opportunity in a way that, for the most part, is foreclosed to us in West Texas. Well, and by the same token, like I was talking to Jordan about that, and he mentioned some private land, you know, a fairly good chunk of land with ideal habitat. And people have been searching on, you know, in that prime habitat quite a bit.

and zero alterna have been found in natural habitat. So, you know, that kind of gives you a perspective of like, okay, you know, he told me that after I was complaining about how bad it sucks to hurt the cuts, you know, like just sitting there staring at the rock wall or whatever. But he's like, really, it's kind of a blessing because it slows them down. So when they are active, they are out on the surface, they're easier to spot, easier to find because there's, you know, it's just a kind of a blank. link wall for the most part, you know, you see them, see him a little easier that way. I mean, yeah, there's cracks and crevices and things. But he said, you know, otherwise in prime habitat, where they have lots of cover, lots of plants, you know, those kind of things, they don't need to come out really on the surface at all for the most part, because they can find their prey in, in the cracks,

under the ground, things like that, they don't need to come out. So, you know, we're, they're much less detectable. So, her. Herping the cuts is actually a kind of a blessing in disguise, even though it's so tedious, you know. But, you know, I mean, you can walk up on top of them and find black tails and other goodies. But so, yeah, that was kind of the, the takeaway that I had. It kind of, you know, made me maybe look forward to it a little more if I get back there. And actually, I may head down just a little bit early before IHS and drive down to West Texas, just meet the guys there and then drive back to Arizona with them or something.

We'll see if the weather, like you were saying, you know, the weather does play a big role in when it was, you know, when different weather patterns are very key to species. And I mean, I think we owe a lot to these folks that get out often and, you know, throughout the year. He says he's just got friends that. And I guess the bad thing is. or not necessarily bad, but the thing with that is, is a lot of these guys don't post anything, don't share their, there's a time that we don't have to build into.

And I, you know, you really hope that the knowledge doesn't die with them kind of thing, you know, where you're hoping they're writing it down or something, and that kind of stuff will be brought to light. But at the same time, it's like they put in all this work. And I understand, like, not wanting to share that because then all of a sudden you've got all these people, you know, joining you on the, trying to fight for the cuts and, and kind of horning in on your, on your good time. And, you know, a lot of these guys have kind of, you know, abandoned some of the more popular cuts because it's just not worth, worth it to them. You know,

they go to some lesser known or lesser hit cuts. And so, but yeah, he said, you know, somebody will post on Facebook or something, oh, I found this one. I think it's the first alternative the season. He's like, I know four or five people that have already found one and just don't boast about it, you know, and they found it weeks or months before this one was found. So, you know, there's some, there's some big, I guess, Alterna folks that just, you know, they have, they have that knowledge and they utilize it and they're very successful in finding Alterna, but they don't really publicize it or share it, you know, so I guess there is kind of a, that thing in the back of your head that you, If you don't see it on social media, it's probably not happening, but that's not necessarily the case.

And I think that goes for a lot of different things. But, you know, we get a little media focused, I think, these days and thinking, well, if I don't see it on Facebook, then it probably hasn't happened. Well, I mean, a couple thoughts, right? Yeah. The first of work in a reverse chronological order of the thoughts. But relative to that, well, I can't know what I don't know. Yeah.

Right. So if someone who doesn't tell me. I can't know. Right. We've talked about that with just even in context, right, I guess it won't come on, you know. And saying like, all right, well, by making the choice to not come on, you're letting other people control the narrative. Right. You know, I don't think you're actually solving anything.

You're just letting someone else control the narrative because they're willing to talk. So I can't know what Jordan's friends who I'm unaware of, you know. Right. Yeah. I certainly, I try my best to not presume that that is, you know, what I am exposed to is the universe of no knowledge, right? I would say that I'd make it a goal to never engage with that sort of a paradigm, right? So I don't, you know, I would hope that, you know, kind of everyone else does the same, right? It's not saying that, oh, it hasn't been posted on Instagram or Facebook that it hasn't happened, right?

simultaneously like, well, it would be unreasonable for them to not share that information and then expect people to know it. So as long as they are cognizant of that attitude as well, I'll get by me. Well, and I think that's kind of their goal is to not, you know, have that information out there. So they're not having to compete with others that, you know. And, you know, I guess they figure, well, I've done all this work. Why would I just hand it over to somebody, you know, that kind of. And I respect that, you know, but... I think the other part of that, though, the thing that, and maybe is part of the West Texas, allure mystique, whatever, it seems like the people that are really into it.

And maybe this is why, you know, we're sort of dilettance in this space more than anything, is that it's, I think sometimes that it's overrated, the idea that, oh, I could share this information and it'll have a huge detrimental effect, because, For the most part, it requires either living out there. And as we know, not that many people live out there. We have had Stephen on, right? And he moved out there, you know, went to school there expressly for that purpose, right? Right.

And we're scheduled to talk to somebody else who lives out there, which is really good. Anxious to do that. Or it's, you know, more so it's folks that are not in the immediate area, but are within a three to eight to 12-hour drive and have the flexibility and and drive to just go out and do it whenever they can or whatever. But if you don't live within probably 12 or 15 hours of West Texas, then for some, it's probably sort of a moot point.

Yeah. So, like, you know, I know that Jordan, you know, he's willing, man, he's the road warrior. Yes, sir. You know, so like, he wins that ground in certain more spaces within his purview just from just from his capacity. and willingness to be. Legendary.

Yeah, I still get a kick out of his, you know, herping with some friends and going, hey, we could try for a Rosie Boa. I mean, they're like, well, we're in West Texas. Like, yeah, let's just drive over to California. There's a stormfront, you know, moving through the area. Okay. And they went and found one.

Got to, you know, drove this huge distance. Like, yeah, all the, you know, hitting all the things. Yeah, so I always, I have tremendous respect. for that. The other thing I was going to say, kind of so pushing us back further in the reverse chronology is, I think you are correct that some of this is just a function of talking about crevice dwelling

species, right, or things that operate subterranean in a subterranean landscape for the most part, right? So when you're on that private land, that we don't have that window into what's happening under the earth, right? So I do think there's something to that. I don't think it changes the fact that you're trying to hit

some by herping for that. You're trying to find something and it's five to 15 percent non-estimating window or whatever. And the truth that sort of had struck me is, oh, we can't find them when they're estimating, right? And maybe, you know, the key distinction that you draw is it's not necessarily a function of public land access. And in fact, the existence of the cuts, the fact that then that is a accepted methodology, it's not weird.

As we saw, you know, the part that's kind of wild is if you go even four hours east from Alpine and you're walking along those same sort of road cuts, it looked out like he got three heads. You know, it's truly a phenomenon. Not that the snakes won't turn out in those places. I was just watching a video where someone turned out a snake on a cut that isn't what I would typically think of as falling within that space. Oh, it was the guys from the Kroccast podcast, podcast. the reptile ramblings version where they talk about where it's just I think that's mostly when they're absent a guest they've gone to southern California flown into San Diego and then they did some stuff in mountain habitat they went down into Anza and low desert but they talked about it in that context and we're saying oh well there's a cut we might as well look at the cut right and see what's going on and they turned out a it was something something of a special

a special stink yeah I was listening to that podcast yesterday and that was one I actually I said I got to see this on YouTube because they were showing the pictures that they were talking from the trip and all that and so yeah they do have it we'd recommend but yeah oh it was a rosyboe okay and that actually so there is something to that right the traditional rosyboa methodology is sort of scrambling hillsides flipping rocks those sorts of things also you can cruise them at the right time of year.

And this was sort of an intermediate that it was, you know, out on the rock face. But, you know, they were applying, oh, it's, it's functionally a cut. You always look at cuts for thanks. And I'm like, well, okay. Maybe I should start, yeah. Maybe I need to do that a little bit more if it was genuinely just out in that matrix. Right. I think we, I think we do, but not sort of in the way that they described.

I would usually in Southern California, we don't really do that. It's more when we see things transitioning. from the road into that space that we wanted to looking at that stuff. Yeah. Yeah, that's, I've thought a lot about that in the context of my own backyard. Like, what, what am I missing out here, you know? And, and I mean, we had the Gilpin's out here. They, they were out for some kind of Frisbee golf tournament for Sarah Gilpin.

And then so they, they came up to her, in Cash Valley because they, you know, I knew them from, they were in Australia at the second symposium that that thief guy put on. So I'm like, oh, you know, some Americans are here. Like, what brought you guys? And they were just touring Australia already and just stopped in to check it out or, you know, I can't remember how they heard about it. But anyway, so we'd kind of known each other for years and seen each other at various shows and things like that. And then, And so they came up and hurt for a night. And, you know, we found a great baseman owl snake, a gopher snake, you know, some other cool stuff.

And then they were driving home and just decided to stop on the side of the road in the canyon, like Sardine Canyon between Logan and Brigham City or, you know, the other side of the mountain range. And turned up a night snake. I'm like, I haven't seen a night snake out here, you know, is like pretty cool. So, and that's, that's a pretty big fine for, you know, northern Utah. And so I'm like, oh, man, you know, I need to do more of that kind of thing. But then it's like, well, I'm, you know, driving home or I've got the family. It's like, you know, not very convenient or I just want to get home and go to sleep or something. So it's like I'm kind of lazy in my own backyard a little bit. And, yeah, I did that kind of intensive survey type thing. And, but it was mostly during the day because then it's like, well, I have to leave my wife and go. you know, back back to where I work and, you know, kind of up the canyon from there and look for stuff. So, you know, I've kind of been a little, and especially with gas prices, how they are right now. Like, I'm not, I can't afford to go out and Herp really right now. So, yeah, that's kind of the trick. But yeah, learning that, those things. And, you know, like, I've kind of gotten a better

handle on rubber boa. So when you came out, I could, oh, I know a place. Let's go look there. And we found a couple. So that was, you know, nice to make that work out. And it's always nice when they deliver, you know. But, you know, the other night, Heidi and I went out and drove and didn't see anything. We, you know, we did maybe three passes. So it's not like we were intensively herping or anything. But so, you know, it is what is. But I see the, you know, we had a thunderstorm yesterday.

So I was like, I really want to get up there and hurt. But I was, we had, you know, I had some responsibilities and then just came home. and kind of crashed. It was just, you know, it just didn't make it out there. Oh, I watched that Kimberly program. Episode two came out of the PBS. Yeah. So it was more like coastal, like, ocean stuff. So wasn't quite excited. They do show the Roebuck, mangrove snake or the one that's found in Broome. I think it's the Roebuck. But, yeah, kind of a very endemic, like limited range mangrove snake that occurred. in the broom area. So it'd be kind of fun to go look for at some point.

So, yeah, they had some footage of one of those eating a mud skipper and stuff. So it's pretty cool. Very cool. That'll be fun. Yeah, but I think the next episode's the one that has like rough-scale python footage and more gecko footage and stuff like that. So that should be good. Escarbment-type focus or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. But it's mostly like on fire management. So I'm kind of like, hopefully they, you know, get in some good stuff there. But we'll see. The first one was really cool. Had some neat footage of a lot of good stuff.

The only downside is they don't really talk about the animals. They just kind of show a quick clip of something. They don't say, oh, this is a, exactly. Yeah. So, I mean, they talk about a few different species, like they'll say the name of the animal. But, yeah, for the most part, they'll just show, you know, quick footage of a fringe-toed velvet. Velvet gecko, Edir of Felisipoda and just kind of show it climbing up the rock and then move on without a mention,

you know, or just say geckos are adapted to this area or something, you know. But, yeah, sorry. Yeah. So I guess kind of back to that, like if we are all kind of learning, you know, about the reptiles in our own backyard or, well,

and I think we had an example, too, on our last trip to Australia where we got some advice on, you know, where to find something. And then, you know, we kind of got chided for not asking the right questions. And like you said, you kind of know what you know and you don't know what you don't know. So going there, exploring it, then you're like, oh, now I have a flood of questions, you know, questions. But it's too late to ask them because we're not able to go back to the spot, you know, that kind of thing. So, you know, that's one thing I'd like to try again. And hopefully we'll have. have that opportunity soon.

But, yeah. So, yeah, I, planning a trip to a new area is, is tricky, as you know, you know, to, to know when, where. And, you know, I was, I was convinced that trip to Central Australia was doomed from the start because I get there. And it's like, much hotter than it should be, you know, on average. And, you know, you just can't plan, you know, eight to 12 months in advance and have the weather work out perfectly, unless you're very, very lucky, you know.

Right. I mean, sometimes it does, right? And there is, you know, maybe some of this is also saying, like, there is certainly historic seasonalities to things. Right. It's almost, I think, right, to the point that you're making, that you can't guarantee perfect conditions, but you can make a better, you know, a more or less informed decision. And then it has to turn out or not, right?

Yeah. When we went to West Texas the first time, normally, we were probably, the weather that we wound up experiencing is more generally associated with two, three, four weeks later than it was when, you know, when we went, right? So if you looked at the weather, even if you looked at the weather before that week the year before, that it would have been substantially better than it was when we went, right? It was more like the conditions that we experienced didn't happen. until three or four weeks later the previous year. There's no planner. Yeah. You know, and so it's not that we could have known that that would happen, right?

We were trying to make a good choice, a shoulder season choice for sure, but, you know, still recognizing like, oh, this is based on the last, you know, recent trend, historic trends, recent trends, you know, recent updates to those trends. We should be okay. Well, it may or may not come off, right? That certainly is the case. I guess I'm just thinking that it's that much more, and maybe the answer is, these are areas where shoulder seasons are dodgier. You know, my general preference,

maybe they're dodgier in those areas where we are relying upon that active period of time to find something. If it's crevice dwellers, the other thing that it jumped to mind was out of the Louisiana, Mississippi, Florida, the pine barons, those experiences of saying,

really, functionally, they're sort of like those crevice dwellers and that you're looking for them, when they're active, but it's not necessarily that they're within a crevice matrix, it's they're just below ground and not in a sort of Colorado, Utah, Kansas kind of way where, oh, there's some rocks and you can flip them or whatever. In a, they're out and active and you happen to run into them. And if we're talking about super active snakes, like pine snakes, indigo's, eastern

diamondbacks to a slightly lesser extent, short-tailed snikes, these sorts of things, like, you're looking for something in that true 5%, where it's, out active and visible and where you are, right? That integration of those things. And if we're talking about going to a place to hope to have that experience, either we have to be really fortunate or you have to probably, it is this sort of thing where you want to spend a lot of time. That is the other thing, right, when Jordan was talking about West Texas is a lot of

the people that he's talking about having really good success, not only are they going out there with frequency, they're staying for a long time. Yeah. Right. His commentary was, oh, it was X number of double digit X number of alterna over the last two and a half weeks. Yeah. Well, I just don't have two and a half weeks to spend, you know, at a clip. Right.

Right. In that area or whatever. And then sort of dictating it around and whatever. So it's just something that'll always be harder for me than it is for someone in that situation. Exactly. And I think, too, like, I think the Jordan philosophy, that I'm kind of learning is like, you know, we've talked about a little bit is, is when the conditions aren't right where you are, find conditions somewhere else, you know, you might have to

switch up your target or the area you're in, but there's probably maybe something, you know, that has a little more going on than where you're at, you know, and he kind of made the comment, like, West Texas is a big place. Like, you know, there could be a rain, rainstorm on one end and, you know, not on the other. And so you, you kind of track the weather and you head to, to where it's more active. Now, that does make it difficult. You may be driving that same direction, you know, like, it may concentrate activity. And it's more doable than, say, the Kimberly, if you're going into, you know, back in the old days when you could go to Boxston and things that, like, okay, well, sure, but you're talking about a one spot. A three-day pivot, you know.

Right. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. Okay. Well, we go to Broom. instead of Mitchell Falls, you know, or whatever. And it's like, well, that's a massive, that's a massive pivot. That's not. Right, right. Yeah. If you get up to Kimberly and things aren't happening, it's, you know, you almost are

better off waiting until it changes, you know, waiting a few days there. Yeah, you're more just, you're in it, right? You're committed to that project. Right. In a way that, yeah, to that point, right, going to down by the river road is totally different from, oh, I'm just going to head out, you know, the eastern spots versus, the Davis Mountain Spots or whatever

versus Sanderson Yeah Like absolutely I think that's sort of the perfect space Or southern California Is the perfect space And are we going to go High Desert, low desert

The mountains What are we doing? Yeah absolutely Like there there's plenty of opportunity Within very reasonable spaces To say I may want to see a Rosie Bella But the conditions dictate

Low Desert is better You know at this point Or the mountains is better or whatever And I think I think that makes sense So when you're in, absolutely, I agree, if you're in one of those spaces that has opportunity, and we can pull out our inner Jordan Road warrior and say, yeah, six hours is, you know, sure, it's six hours from where we thought we'd be or wanted to be or whatever,

but we can still do it. I think that makes a ton of sense. Next year in the Kimbo, I don't think that's probably less so, you know. Yeah. A little bit, I mean, other than if it's on the route, you know, or whatever. And that's, yeah. I mean, you just want to try to stack the deck as much as you can and get as much good input as you can. And that's, you know, I guess the benefit of starting the planning stages early and, you know, getting lots of input from lots of different people and, you know, trying to improve your plan and make better choices or whatever to your, to approve your.

Yeah. And I mean, it's all a balance like, you know, you don't want to wait too long because or go into the Kimberly too late because. because then you might get trapped there if the rains come early, you know, and then you're stuck for however long until you can get across the river or hire a helicopter to fly you out and, you know, deal with the rental, you know, that's stuck there or something that would not be. Better be under the terms for having been there. Yeah, that's for sure.

Yeah, exactly. So, you know, those kind of things are tricky to work out. And, you know, sometimes I was asking somebody, hey, you know, I'm interested in rental. Oh, we're pretty much booked out. So, you know, depending on the week you're going, we may or may not have a vehicle for you. And this is a year out.

It's like, holy crap. So you've given them that context and they were already saying that. Yeah. And it was like, oh, man, something. They said, okay, well, if you're going this time, it's this much and this time. And it's like, you know, almost $100 more a day if you went in this time frame versus this time frame. It's like, you know, I guess it's the supply and demand.

Okay. So that's kind of the thing. Right. Which way? Yeah. It could be both. I don't know. I didn't really dig too deep, but it's just like, oh, man.

So, you know, those kind of things all factor in and will be interesting to see how it works out. Because, you know, so we need to kind of act early and quickly kind of thing. But, yeah. Yeah, planning a trip is definitely an undertaking, as you well know. And then, you know, those little details that you maybe not think. Like, for example, when I went to W.A. after you guys took off from the Northern Territory and kind of went out solo to the W.A. portion of my trip.

And I didn't realize that things closed down in October because it's too hot, you know. So it's like, okay, I'm driving. I'm going to go hit this spot. I'm like, oh, wait, I can't go there. It's closed or there's a big gate across the road. I'm like, oh, I guess I'm not going to this area. You know, it's like, okay. And it's, yeah, it's got a big sign saying close for season, you know, and you're like out of luck.

And there were other areas where it's like the road was open, but you have to, you know, like go with your own peril. Because if you get stuck in there, no one else is there to help you. Yeah. And I'm alone, so it's not like I want to push it or risk things, you know. Same kind of thing in, you know. up in litchfield there was one you know pretty big spot for glebe of palma and i just didn't want to risk it was a rough road you know i was like yeah probably not on my own you know just in case whereas if there's a handful of people let alone two vehicles or whatever yeah that's totally

the sort of thing that you would say yeah this is fine we'll give it a go and see we can work it out confident we can work through it yeah yeah and i was watching some you know random video on the kimberley going into Mitchell Falls and this they had two car two vehicles going in they were leading tours or something so they're just kind of showing the Kimberly kind of thing like a touristy video and uh one of the cars just pulled off the road to wait for the other one and got bogged like there was like basically quicksand you know off the side of the road and they didn't realize it looks solid it looked fine like anybody would have probably thought oh I can pull off there and then you know the other car had to get out the little, you know, yeah, stuff to get them loose or whatever.

But, you know, it's, it's something you don't think about necessarily, and you might make that mistake. So it would be helpful to have either the tools to get yourself out of there or another vehicle, you know, driving around the same time. So, yeah, a lot of moving parts for a high adventure like that if you wanted to succeed, I guess. Yeah. So I don't know, I'm definitely looking forward to it and, you know, try and try my best to plan a good trip. But open to, open to suggestions. And we've gotten some really good suggestions just from talking about it on here and previous shows. Like a lot of good people have reached out and said, hey, you know, let me give you some advice or something.

So that's really cool. So I appreciate those folks. Absolutely. And I suppose the other part of it too, right, is there is something to be said for just doing the thing, regardless of we've had plenty of nights or days and nights where maybe it didn't feel like ideal conditions and we're still turning stuff up. So sometimes it's a function of volume, you know, yet to have a trip that I've been dissatisfied with, you know, in terms of getting truly skunked. You know, I'm sure, maybe we did that thing, but found plenty of other cool stuff at a great time. So maybe that's an important part, too, is saying, like. like, sure, you can try and do the best.

You can in terms of foresight planning, but some of it's going to fit into your context. And the other part of it is the attitude that you bring to the party. And that is probably the most important thing is the willingness to go look, you know, right, putting the idea you're not going to find it in the hotel room. We have found some things in the hotel room. But for the most part, you have to be out actively looking. And so it's the willingness to do that to put in the time, the effort, the hours.

And, yeah, go even when it doesn't seem that great, because we definitely have turned up stuff in those conditions, where the experts have said, either this time of year is wrong, these conditions are wrong. Oh, yeah, that doesn't look very promising, didn't come and meet us out, you know, because of that sort of presumption and what I actually pivoted.

You know, so this is sort of the flip side of the coin, right, is thinking of when Aspen and I were down in Central Florida, right? The idea of I really wanted to find a Southern Hognaut snake, and it's like, sure, even though the conditions are not, don't appear to be optimal for that area compared to that's a place where there are plenty of opportunities to pivot based on the weather conditions and things. And the feedback was like, oh, that doesn't look great. And it's like, well, that's the only place I can go where I'm going to maybe find one of these things. And that's the thing I want to find.

And the feedback was like, cool, well, I'm not meeting you there. I'm going to this other place because I'm not, you know, I've already seen that. I don't need to do that. And it's totally fair, right? Obviously, we're coming from different places on this thing. Right. But, you know, still turned one out. Yeah.

It wasn't ideal conditions. Right. You know, the feedback from the person with the expertise was, oh, well, conditions are actually going to be best, you know, in this other place. And they found lots of great stuff. But I still found what I wanted to see because, you know, I went despite the fact it didn't look optimal. Right. Right. Yeah.

And I guess what else? can you do, but give it a shot, you know. And, you know, I think we still don't know everything. And there's always kind of stragglers or things that are out and they probably shouldn't be out, you know. Right. Well, what was Bob Zappalortis? He said, well, there's always the dumb ones. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And, I mean, or the ones that are just happened to need to get out for whatever reason. You know, obviously, if you understand the natural history, you know, when, you know, breeding season is, you might have a might have a might. It's easier chance finding a male out on the move looking for a female or, you know, a female exiting to warm up or eggs or something, you know, basking a little more frequently or basking on the roads. You know, that's very typical for rubber boas in the areas.

When it's, when they're gravid, they'll come out and be on the trail. So you often will find gravid females in the fall, whereas in the spring you're finding younger, you know, more males or younger animals or things on the move. So yep, it's all having a better understanding. And I guess that's the point, you know, that I would love to have a better understanding of a lot of these things. And, you know, you can get a lot of that from reading publications or books or whatever. But, you know, having that firsthand knowledge or knowing, you know, like, okay, if I go out today, I'm going to have a really good chance of finding this, you know.

And at the same time saying, well, I probably would. won't have a good chance today, but I'm going to get out anyway just to see, you know, if a stragglers out there because it's a data point and, you know, any data point's good. So, and especially if you live in the area and it's, you know, a 15 minute drive or something. Right. Yeah, you can really help, um, kind of elucidate maybe some different natural history things. One of the coolest things I saw was a couple of years ago was, um, it was raining. And so I went out herping and I saw like leopard frogs all over the road. That was kind of what I was,

I think I was just driving one of my kids over to a friend's house or something. And there's all these frogs hopping across the road. I'm like, what is going on? So I pulled on to one of the side roads. And sure enough, you know, leopard frogs left and right, you know, I probably saw a dozen of them that night, saw a tiger salamander walking, you know, kind of in the middle of the road. It was one of the nicest tiger salamanders I've seen.

in northern Utah and then went up the road and saw a couple rubber boas and one was out drinking from a puddle, you know, that was forming on the side of the road. And I really wish I would have taken pictures before I picked the thing up. You know, I was so excited, but I'm like, oh, God, why didn't I take some pictures and or just watch it, you know, kind of do its thing. And then- That's the enthusiasm of it being, because at that point you'd seen them before, right? but not consistently and not recently. Right, right. And didn't know this area very well.

Like it was kind of a new place that I kind of thought, oh, I bet there's, this would be a good place to look, you know, that kind of thing. It was actually just a random comment from a neighbor, you know, that was like, oh, I was walking on this trail. And I saw a rattlesnake and a couple of rubber boas. And I'm like, whoa, that's cool. You know, I need to go to that area. And so that was kind of what got me up there. And so I walked the trail and, you know, found a juvenile rubber boa. and a couple of, you know, a bunch of yellow-bellied racers and things like that.

And then I'm like, oh, this is a good area. You know, I wonder how the road is at night. So I started cruising the road. Yeah, it worked out well. So those kind of things kind of come together. But, yeah, that's, you know, and having a better understanding, or now that I know about that spot, going back, you know, year after year month, you know, throughout the years and seeing trying to work out when the best. the best conditions or when you're more likely to see stuff and you know the more data points you

can gather the more information you have and pretty soon you can say hey i and and you know i i'll maybe put in a plug for ai and do you know having that having that power of of analysis you know like saying hey analyze all these records and figure out you know what correlates with this and that the other and you know trying to use these tools to help you understand patterns and things like that. Sure. Sure. And it would be... And Jordan's another big proponent of those kind of things. He understands and can make those things sing.

So, yeah, he's got some cool stuff in the works for sure. Certainly, I think there is utility in specific use there by people that are asking the right questions. I think that's the understated part, right? It doesn't inherently know. those things you need to drive you need to be driving not be a passenger right then that's it is a tremendous capacity right and there are so many things at our disposal now including that that uh you know we're not available previously right that i already take advantage of so i'm not so um naive as to fail to recognize that certainly i think there's a ton of capacity there i think the important

part whenever we're in that space is just making sure that people are doing so consciously and being drivers, not passengers, because it could just drive you off the cliff. And if you don't even have the expertise and realize that you were just driven off the cliff, that's kind of the real danger. Yeah, you definitely have to have the knowledge because, I don't know,

I saw a great example of that in a couple Instagram reels where this guy says, you know, how many E's are there in 17? And AI says, oh, there's four. And he said, or yeah, whatever. And he said, no, I just counted there's three. Oh, you're right. Yeah, there's three. And they said, oh, I just counted. There's actually 30. Well, that's a common misconception. There are only three E's in 17. He's like, you know, no, there's four and it's obvious. And then he did another one where he's like, okay, I'm going to walk 10 feet away and see if you can hear me. And he goes, okay, I'm 10 feet away. Can you hear me? Yeah, I hear you pretty loud and clear. And he's like, okay, now I'm going to walk a mile away. Okay, I'm a mile away. Can you hear me? I'm having hard time. hearing you. Okay, I'm going to come four inches closer. Can you hear me? Oh, that's a little better.

It's like, no, you didn't move an inch. You know, I was like, yeah. And so obviously you have to, you know, you have to understand because AI may just tell you whatever you want to hear kind of or what it thinks you want to hear or whatever, you know, whatever it goes in. Yeah, that's before getting into the moral or immoral. Right. Right. Right. The whole thing, let alone externalized costs and all all this stuff, right? Right. Yeah, and the usage of water and power and all those kind of things. So yeah, that's kind of a two-edged sword for sure, especially, I mean, they're trying to build one out in the West Desert here and it's, there's no water out there. They're already worried about the Great Salt Lake drawing up. Oh, they're happy to take it. I'm drinking it, man. Don't worry about it. Right. Right. And so it's like,

to what end? Who benefits from this, you know? Right. Company makes a billion dollars. well, good for them, but how does that help the people who have increased power bills and water bills and no water, you know, for crops and livestock or whatever? So I don't know. We need to be a little careful with it, you know. Yeah, absolutely. It's crazy. I think we probably will chat with Jordan when it's next on a little bit. Maybe a little IHS recap and you can get into it a little bit, have him extol the appropriate virtues.

we can certainly highlight the, you know, well-enunciated costs. And again, that doesn't mean that that's not everything has costs, right? It's a function of making sure that they're being accounted for and that it's the trade offer exchange we want to make. Right. And, you know, I guess I just think, why are they not doing this in, you know, along the Mississippi River or something where there's more water than they know what to do with, you know, that kind of thing.

But I don't know. Ben, Ben Morrill's wife, she moved out to Utah. And she's like, why are people sprinkling water on their grass? Like, what is wrong with you people? You know, they don't need to do that in Virginia. But in Utah, Kentucky bluegrass somehow doesn't do very well here. So, yeah, we talked about that, I think, on the second trip, our real croat round trip.

That, you know, we were in some subdivision. or coming out of the subdivision when we're in the middle or the southwest part of the state. And I said, see, Nipper, it's fine that you have these beautiful manicured gardens in the U.K. Where there's natural, you know, humidity, although their heat dome situation, all of Western Europe, you know, again, kind of wild. You know, not good. But I said, that's fine. Here, where the natural ecology supports red rock desert, this is not okay. Yeah.

Yeah. And I mean, we've, we've just altered the flora and fauna so much, especially the flora. You know, there's just not many native plants or trees that exist in our towns and cities, you know, and they're definitely taking more than their fair share of water and things, you know, resources. And then, you know, the overwatering of things causes other problems. I was just visiting with the neighbor yesterday, you know, somebody down the street yesterday. day and and there were two giant pine trees, probably 70, 80 years old in their neighbor's yard. And a big windstorm came in and just toppled them.

You know, they smashed through their fans. They pulled out of the ground. Yeah, they just don't put down deep roots because they get so much water on the surface because they're watered artificially, you know, that they just. And they probably don't belong in the valley, you know, they probably belong up in the mountains where they're going to really put down roots to try to hold on and, you know, get that deep moisture. Get that purchase, both for moisture and purchase. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, it's the wrong thing and the wrong place can, yeah, cause issues. I don't know, it's an interesting thing.

I mean, obviously the cane toad situation. And I watched that last episode of the Kimberly, and I'm like, maybe I need to go this year to the Kimberly and get there before the cantoads do because they could screw everything up. And then, you know, maybe it's so altered that, you know, you're not going to be able to see those things you want to see. So I'm a little nervous. Okay. Well, stay in Kimberly for a second.

It's something that you mentioned. As I recall, I think it must have been from the now-de-funk Australian Herpticulture podcast. Yeah. You mentioned Feliceipoda, being in the Kimberly show. Are those in Europe, in the U.S.? I think the reason I ask is that the, I feel like when they were discussing it in the context of that episode of the podcast, they had almost like there was something about that form that's more difficult within captivity. I don't know if it's the size of the hatchlings, if it's what they're sort of their diet components,

if there's some other piece, but they were considered, I think, more challenging than, other forms, right? Especially in contrast to the, obviously they're not baranids, right? But the thing, you know, I've come to appreciate that all baranids are not all baranets, right? They're not interchangeable with one another. They have unique adaptations and things, and those could make them more or less suitable. In this case, do you know if those are around? And if so, do you have any visibility into that sort of my half-remembered idea of what makes

Elizabeth put it more difficult? I wouldn't be surprised if they were available in your. Europe, but I haven't seen any in the U.S. Fembrea, yes, and some other, you know, more common species, yeah, but Felicipoda, no. And I think maybe it was more of a factor that they were newer to herpeticulture, and so they hadn't worked out, you know, what was, but it seems like people are fairly successful with them.

And it sounds from some of the interviews, like they were more commonly seen than Grisillus, which is, you know, also found in those areas. and they saw, what, I think, four to one, Fembrookin to Gryllis. They also said that the Fembro, I'm saying Fembroa, Phyllisipoda, are a little more bold. They're not quite so skittish as the Grisillas. Interesting. So, you know, that's kind of what I've gotten from my limited research and knowledge about it. But, yeah, I don't track the Gecko community too well, but there are folks that do.

Yeah, I haven't seen any or heard any talk about them. So either they're under the radar or, you know, that kind of thing, or they haven't made their way out of Europe, you know, from that. They're too tired from that long swim from Australia to Europe. Right. Yeah. It's such a double-edged sword because, you know, I think I've talked about this here, but, you know, they were, the Australians were very upset that the leaf tail gecko,

the riverine leaf tail of M. Nicole. were over here and in Europe and they were upset. You know, we can't even get those. And they're very endangered here. And, you know, you can't hardly see any. But they're like one of the most commonly bred leaf tail geckos over here. And they're very common, you know, easily to, not necessarily easy to come by. But, you know, they're very, they do very well in American herpeticulture.

And so there's no need to remove any others from the wild. because there's a stable, readily produced population here. So, you know, I think all those kind of things factor in. Yeah, it's terrible that people are smuggling wildlife and removing them from the wild. But at the same time, if there's no mechanism, then you're just setting up the situation for that. It doesn't make it right. Doesn't make it good. And, you know, obviously some things shouldn't be taken from the wild or, you know, kept in captivity for the most part.

like, you know, dragon snakes are very difficult or some of those other maybe a Komodo dragon, you know, people just can't handle those large brandies like that. That's just not a good situation. But guaranteed there's somebody out there that has a pet Komoto dragon, you know, and they, you know, the way they handle them in zoos and things makes me think they're probably a great pet. They could take the place of your dog or something. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But, I mean, we give our dogs, our yard and rent of the house and things. So that could be a bad situation with a Komodo dragon,

but it could also be a bad situation with the dog. You know, it just depends on, you know, what you're doing with them and things like that. But speaking of, oh, sorry, we can stay on this topic for a minute. Well, the only thing I was going to say, just as, and I feel like maybe we just mentioned it within the recent crop of episodes, but, you know, you mentioned that about the amnicola.

The thing that jumps to my mind, right, is there are certain things that can be endangered in the wild, but as much as anything, function of habitat destruction where within it might they're required sometimes right dragon snakes the requirements aren't suitable other times it it's clearly other factors that are causing their decline in the wild because you get like a sulkata tortoise situation which is an endangered to critically endangered species in the wild and obvious obviously not well suited for captivity based on it well from a perspective of the average you know average pet keeper but

there are way more of them in captivity than there are in the wild. Right. Right. So they're super amenable to be produced in captivity. Yeah. Just they still says still doesn't make them a great single family pat. But, you know, it is interesting when we talk about things that are basically endangered or even extinct in the wild, but they do really well in captivity or super fecund. Yeah.

I mean, Crested Geckos, you know, like they thought they were extinct. and, you know, they weren't, but yeah, they do fantastically well, and now they outnumber most pets, you know, as far as... Right, even aggregating species and things like that. Although I will say that I wonder the extent to which

globalization slash the ability to share information is sort of the whole idea that they were thought to be extinct probably reflects, say, a knowledge gap or a vacuum in knowledge as opposed to, because I mean, right, There are so many really interesting podcasts and YouTube's and things about folks going.

And that would be a fun trip. But they're going and finding five or six of them. And it's like, well, if you thought they were extinct for a century, probably just weren't looking in the right place or in the right conditions or, you know, utilizing the right search image. Or it was, I think, probably a vacuum of information in that context that led to that. It's probably always been a little bit overstated. Right. I, you know, I've been reading Sam Sweet's posts on Facebook. I don't know if you've caught those, but he's going into his research and photos and things from his Arnhem land experience and on his studies.

And it's, it's fantastic. Like, it's really cool stuff, you know, he's, he talks a lot about the culture, you know, Aboriginal culture and the fact that he respected their customs and, and things led them to allow him to go to places that they normally wouldn't let white people go to and, and had a really good experience there and got a lot of work done because of that, you know. And hearing some of his stories are like the, I mean, I don't know, I watched that show. I think it's called The Ten Canoes. And it's just a, yeah, yeah. And I mean, I, you know, I, the, you know, the, you know, Aboriginal Australian,

culture is is very, very different from ours. There's, there's very little ties where you're like, oh, yeah, that makes sense to me. Like, yeah, that's what we do too. Yeah. I mean, for example, when he wanted to talk to somebody, he said you don't ask, you know, they don't ask each other questions. And, you know, so if he wanted to know something, he had to kind of work around that Because you don't say, hey, have you seen this lizard? He had to kind of phrase it differently. So they would, if they felt like he needed to know, they would talk about that lizard kind of thing. You know, it's really kind of an interesting thing.

And a lot of the wildlife is tied to stories and, you know, legends or, I guess, dreamtime stories and things like that, where they had some part in the creation and of the landscape. or whatever. So it's really interesting to hear some of these stories. Another example is if you wanted to meet with them, you went close to where their camp was, and then you sat with your back to where their camp is and sat and waited until they approach you. You don't go in and say, hey, I want to talk to you guys, you know. And so because he was respectful of those customs, they were much more amenable to share information or to. And I mean, he had all these interesting interactions where he was, for example, stories that he put on his post was he was walking through the forest in cacadu and this white

cockatoo, the sulfur-crested cockatoo, which aren't very common in the area. You usually see the black cockatoo's out there. So he saw this white cockatoo and it was just carrying on like squawking, throwing out its mohawk, flapping its wings, like on the side of a tree about maybe six feet off the ground. He's like, oh, that's interesting. So we went closer to check it out. And as he got closer and was kind of taking pictures, it just started to climb up the tree and flew away. And so he mentioned this to one of his Aboriginal friends. And he said, did you run away? And he's like, no, I kind of went closer. He's like, oh, that's good because it was this, you know, so-and-so spirit that was testing you. If you would run away, he would have devoured you.

You know, like, you know, they, and so he's like, well, yeah, I'm glad I didn't run away. And so, you know, those kind of things, they would tell them things like, don't do this, keep yourself safe. One other interesting one is don't sleep with your butt out in the open because the knob tail geckos, the shay eye, will come and insert their tail into your butt and they'll make you gay. So like, sleep with your butt against the rocks, which is, you know, kind of a, you know, I guess you could maybe see that from their tails. We were risking so much, you know. But so that's, you know, one of those things, you know. You didn't include that in the book somehow. I know.

Oh, I didn't know about it until this last week. So next, next, if we do a second edition, yeah. And maybe we'll throw that in there. But, yeah, very interesting. But, you know, there's all sorts of different, uh, legends and, you know, interactions that they have with the animals. So, you know, they know that wildlife pretty well. But, and then for other things, I think it was, what was it?

Children's pythons maybe, they just consider those, you know, baby Owen Pellies. Like they don't really think of them as different, at least in the creation story type context, as far as I can understand from what Sam Sweet was saying. So maybe I, you know, butcher that. But, you know, they, that was kind of an interesting thing. It's like, well, why don't you tell me these were out here or whatever, you know. Oh, those are just those are just this, you know, that's not not important to us or whatever. They don't factor in as a, it's their own entity, you know.

A lot of things are kind of grouped together. Like if they don't have a, have a specific story. And it's also interesting, too, the way that the knowledge is passed down. It's almost like if you were privileged to hear the story, from one of your uncles or aunts or something, then you now know the story and you can pass it on. But if you weren't told that story, then it kind of dies with them or goes to a different lineage or something like that.

So your group may have certain stories and legends, whereas the other groups have different ones. And so kind of an interesting thing. And, you know, I'm not claiming to be an expert. I'm just kind of regurgitating poorly what I heard, you know. Sure. the on his post but definitely worth a read if you can check out that and i mean i loved uh the article

he had in merritsinella the monitor um yeah publication that they've done a sam had a really cool article on the um cacadu glowardai and uh glibo palma and share some cool stories there so pretty good stuff absolutely yeah wow what a What an experience that would be to work in that context. Absolutely. Yeah. Who was it?

Joe Mendelsohn that was talking about coming face to face with the glower dot, or a glebo. And he just kind of sat there and like didn't know what to do. He thought, well, if I reach for my camera, he's going to run away. So I just kind of want to watch him. And the lizard was just watching him. Oh, that's another fun. the, um, why, why Glebo Palmer are so skittish is they, they are the watchdog for the Mimi spirits that live in the, you know, in the rock crevices. And so when they see humans approaching,

they run to tell the Mimi spirits to clear out. So they're not detected by the humans. So that's why Glebo's, uh, take off really quick. And they're fast, they say they're faster than lightning, you know, like the, I think one of the, One of their figures tried to throw lightning and the glebo was the only one that could outrun it. So that's why they became the watchdog, if I remember correctly. Kind of cool. And then Jordan alerted me to some videos that were pretty cool. Animations of some of these stories and what was it called, like from the dust or let me look that up real quick.

really cool animations of some of these things. It's called Dust Echoes. So you can see some cool animated versions of these Aboriginal Australian legends. Very cool. Pretty cool stuff. I don't know. I love that kind of culture stuff too. Yeah.

My grandfather was adopted as a member of the Hopi tribe. And so we always kind of had those ties to the Hopi. Indians and really cool to hear some of, you know, the stories that they have or the legends that they have. It's really cool. Ancient culture. I mean, they have some of the most, the longest inhabited dwellings in the, you know, in the U.S. So pretty cool stuff. Absolutely.

Yeah. Well, what other topics did we have? I'm getting really excited for IHS. I think I got my presentation kind of nailed down. So, yeah, I'm excited to share that or whatever to talk about it. One of the fun things that I kind of thought about, like, that's the 50th. You know, I kind of want to honor different folks that have kind of gone on the journey with me and reptiles. So I've got pictures of you guys and, you know, Jordan.

So the other folks that I've helped with. So it'll be fun to kind of bring that out a little bit. some fun slides. I'll have to show you guys after, send them around after the, the IHS. Yeah. Very cool. Have you gotten your copy of the book yet? I don't remember what you said about how that was going to work out. Yeah, yeah, I got an advanced copy and then got one for NIP or two.

Unfortunately, it costs like 60 bucks to ship it to England. So I don't know. I think the best bet might be when he comes to, to, Herp again in the U.S. to pick up a bunch of copies because I just don't know. Like, I mean, they're, Bob kept the price point around $20 for a copy. So I'm very happy about that. I'm going to pick up a bunch of cases at the IHS meeting, bring those home and maybe set up a table at a reptile shop or something in Salt Lake and maybe in Logan or maybe

go up to the university, have like a little spot where people can meet up and get a copy if they're interested. So I might start putting the word out there if people in Utah want to copy, you know, we'll set up a few days where I can travel to different areas. Because, I mean, the shipping these days is crazy with U.S. Postal Service. Like, they just keep raising the rates. Like, every time I go to ship, I swear it's up another couple bucks. So I don't know. It's not really worth shipping a $20 book if it costs $15 for the shipping, you know. So it's like I'd rather just hand it to them in person and say hello or something. And even domestically media mail doesn't save you much. No. Yeah. I mean, it's, I don't even know, well, I know they don't have the media

option to overseas. So like to ship a book to Canada was going to cost like $100 or some crazy amount, $50, $75 or something. So I don't know. It's, yeah, definitely a lot more pricey than it has been. I still remember when the first book, you know, the first carpet python book came out, I think shipping to Europe was, or to Europe or Australia was like $15 to ship a book, you know, in a padded flat rate envelope. And now that's almost 10fold or, you know, as much. So just crazy. I don't know what we're trying to do here, but, you know, we're getting beyond what

the Postal Service was supposed to be, I think. You might as well just have everything be privatized and be FedEx or UPS or something. So anyway, yeah, I won't start that rant. Anything else, cool. I discovered these light fixtures that have been kind of revolutionary in my caging. So I'm very happy about those. And because it was being very, it was getting very difficult to find the, you know, the typical halogen bulbs or whatever. They're becoming more costly.

And so these used the mini, mini halogen bulbs with the two pins, the, what is it, T9 or whatever. And so it's been a really nice, nice change to my enclosures. So I'm happy about that discovery. Oh, I ordered. a thermal camera for checking out things at night, especially, you know, birds and mammals are obviously much easier, but I did see somebody post a snake. I should have taken a photo or something of it, but it was like they used a thermal camera to spot a snake, you know, out. Sure. It was just slightly, yeah, slightly warmer than the background, so it stood out a little bit.

So I don't know. I'm going to play around with them. Play around and see if I can get it to work out and hopefully increase chances of finding stuff. That would be really cool. Yeah. Yeah. And, well, I suppose the other part of that, does it work both ways or does it only sort of amplify things that are visually amplify things that are warmer than the surrounding? Or is it, will it also show things that are cooler?

Hmm. I mean, yeah, I think from the contrast, you know, you can see kind of... Yeah, you can see either... Yeah. Because that also could have functionality. Yeah. Right. So, yeah, they could have a retained heat situation where, okay, you have something that's warmer than the ambient condition. But the inverse could also be true, right? If you have something that's been underground all day at a temperature that's actually lower, you might... you might get a visualization on something with a lower temperature than the ambient condition. Right. And it's got a tremendous, like, range.

Like, I think it's 1,800 feet or something. Wow. Yeah. Like, I was, and I actually saw a demonstration of it on a YouTube video where they were, like, it was across the field. And they're holding it up, and they can, you know, zoom in and see this rabbit hopping, like, you know, couple football football fields away. So obviously, geographic features and things are going to limit some of this. Right, right.

Yeah. Yeah. But if you can see like a tree branch or something, you can essentially see it. And like it will go, you know, through the leaves to some extent. Like they'll block your view, but you can still kind of see the heat pattern behind the dappled leaves. So you can know, okay, well, there's a burr roosting in that tree right there. If I get another angle, maybe I can see it better. And then you can take pictures with it, you know, so you can get a shot of,

of what the camera's seeing. I don't think this model had it, but some even have a laser pointer. So when you tap on the image, it shoots a laser so you can see where it's in the environment. It's one thing about holding it up and seeing it on the camera, but then trying to figure out where it is. But, yeah, so I'm kind of excited to check it out and use it.

But I started listening to that mammal watching podcast that, I think it was Casey Cannon had like posted about it and said check this out. It's really quite interesting. I mean, you think herping's a big, you know, like a common thing. But I mean, mammal watching is kind of approaching maybe birding status where I mean, one of the hosts of the show has the most mammal records, you know, of anybody in the world. Like he's, I think at the top of the list or second on the list or something. So these guys definitely know what they're doing.

And they're traveling all over the world to find various mammals. It's pretty dang cool. And apparently like some places, you know, where snow leopards were like, you know, nobody had ever seen one or taken a picture of one. Now it's pretty common to go out and take a tour and a guide will be able to put you on a snow leopard pretty readily. I saw somebody, I think they were an Australian, went on a trip. I can't remember who it was, but went on a trip. and got a snow leopard or two and some other cool like backtrain camels and stuff like that were, you know,

so pretty cool. I don't know. I guess, I don't know, I'm into herping. I'm also into birding, but now I might have to get into mammal watching. And I guess these thermal imaging cameras are kind of changing the game, right? Because you can, yeah, see them very readily. And there's some unique, cool, like, qualls and Munt Johns and things like that. and the Kimberly that'll be kind of fun to see as well.

If you're out looking, you might as well check them out too, you know, that kind of thing. So as long as I'm herping, I might as well bird as well. I mean, focus on the herbs, but if there's a bird there, check it out too. That's my philosophy, I guess. Then I get a double the enjoyment, I guess. Yeah. Kind of fun. But, yeah, so I'll let you know how that goes.

I think it comes to staff. And it was nice because it was Amazon. on Prime Day, and so I got, you know, 10 or 15% off. And then this Mammal watching podcast had a code. So I got another $30 or $40 off. So it ended up being like $100 less than the sticker price. So that was kind of nice. Cool.

Guess a good day to order it. Yeah. But what else? Anything else? Yeah. Trying to do a little bit of reading. about pituitous. That was a fun surprise from Jordan and getting that book, copy the book from him. But reading about the Middle American go for snakes and didn't really know about those.

So I hate to admit my ignorance, but, you know, there's a lot of snakes I don't know about. But that was kind of cool to read about those. Yeah. Yeah, I guess that's for anybody. If anybody claims to know all the reptiles, I'll be curious. to talk to that person. Well, they should also take a look at the O'Shea books, right? Yeah, exactly.

Thanks to the world or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot that I'm not familiar with for sure. Right. Yeah, I guess that's the beauty of life. You can live and learn, you know, as long as you're open, open-minded enough. All right. Well, I think if we talk their ear off, let them off.

Let's sleep by now. Wake up. Come on, listener. You're driving. Wake up. Hopefully this was worthwhile and you enjoyed our conversations, our ramblings. But, yeah, thanks for listening. If you are listening and you've woken up, we appreciate it.

We'll be back next week with another guest. And I listened to Eric and Owen, a couple of podcasts they've done lately. I thought I heard, well, on the chat, they were talking about Lucas being on a podcast recently, but I... I think he was on with Stephen Cush, but it hasn't been released on a podcast player yet, so maybe on YouTube you could find it. Gotcha. Okay.

Yeah, it's hard with the YouTube, because you got to leave it open on your phone or something. So I don't really listen to too many unless I'm at work, and then I'm not paying very good attention. Sometimes that's better, though, if I'm not paying attention. Well, good chatting with you. We'll thank Eric and Owen and the NPR crew. And we'll catch you next week for Rept Off I Club.