Reptile Fight Club - Keeping Giant Snakes w/ Bill Bradley

Episode Date: September 30, 2022

In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the topic of Keeping Giant Snakes w/ Bill BradleyWho will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to the episode of Reptile Fight Club. I'm Justin Julander of Australian Addiction Reptiles and I am your host. And with me, as always, wouldn't have any other way mr chuck poland what is up buddy what is up my friend how you doing i'm good i'm a little tired i'm dragging a little trying to catch back up from the trip yeah yeah it was uh it was a marathon for sure i i understand uh where you where you uh where you're at i i came home and and I took a shower and I just passed out for several hours. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

That was a good time. It was. It was. Well, we're very happy to have Bill Bradley with us again. He's joining the podcast again. Yeah. So nice to have him back. Welcome.

So today's my 46th birthday. And I said for my big birthday present i want bill bradley back on because he is one of my favorites so welcome bill yeah for sure i am super jealous of all the pictures you guys been posting of your outing yeah it was a good trip man it was a good trip fantastic yeah i'm already like itching to get back out like i know i feel the same way i've been on my naturalist looking for some good localities of stuff that i want to find but yeah i don't know it was it was a lot of fun yeah good times and made even better by the company that was great to have well yeah it was a lot of fun i mean since i invited myself you know i i must tip my own hat that's the best i gotta say that's the best self-invite i've ever seen i i tried to do it right i tried to do it right if i'm going to

crash the party like the kool-Aid man. I'm serving drinks. How do you open? Yeah. Isn't that what the Kool-Aid man does? Just pours his body juice. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No, oh, no. What have you done to this beautiful house?

All right. Well, what's going on in Herpwise, Herptown, Herpville? What do you guys got going? Anything exciting? in yeah herp wise herp town herpville what do you guys got going anything exciting i'm back in illinois for a week uh taking care of some training stuff for work so okay i've been knocking it out with the kids walter got a couple of new turtles indy got some new tarantulas we've made some new setups for them to do shows nice end of summer start of school and fall is a lot of festival time for us.

That's great. And so it's a lot more displays and things like that. And then we added some colubrids. Illinois is really strict about boas and pythons when it comes to minors. Okay. And so my middle daughter has really taken a run at doing a lot more show activities on her own. And so we added a lot more colubrids so that she could interact with the crowd while Teresa does the, you know, like a stage presentation for a school assembly or something like that with the larger stuff. So who like is it is that fishing wildlife who walks through and is like excuse me can i see your id

for that python or how does that work yeah so the department of natural resources is who regulates all that here gotcha and they they rewrote the our state herpetologist wrote the herpetal code in 2015 and he he's actually a herper like he's he herp nerd. He goes herping. He keeps privately. He's a government official, and he knows the rules and is pretty strict, but he goes to reptile shows, and he has tricolor hog nose, and he's a nerd. He likes this stuff. That's cool.

And so when the law was written in Illinois, he wrote it as broadly as possible so that we could keep as much as we could. But. He's like really aware that he still needed state senators and state representatives to vote for this thing, and they had to understand the language in it um and so he put pretty hard restrictions at the age of 18 for um boas and pythons and he just said boas and pythons because explaining a sand boa versus a red tail to a senator is is a waste of time right and so it had to be just vague yeah um but the only real restrictions other than that are things that are considered dangerous. So croc monitors, Komodos and the like, very large monitors, crocodilians of any kind. There are some specific rules about how you display those to the public and whether or not minors can be involved. And then the only venomous we're allowed to have that are, they classify venomous in two ways.

Anything rear fang is its own permit. And then anything that's not, so that can be exotic, can be outside of the United States species. Anything that is not rear fang can only be species found in the United States. And his reasoning for writing the law that way was availability of anti-venom and medical procedures and he was he's just better able to explain that to the the people who were voting on it and how the safety protocols would go um and in illinois like it's cold here man so like there's only i think six of us even keeping crocodilians. I think there's, we're the only people that have the permit for rear fang that I'm aware of. There are a few institution type collections that have rattlers and things like that.

But it's just super rare up here because it gets so cold. Most people just weren't keeping that kind of thing. And so he was, it wasn't as much of a fight, I suppose, when, when that got regulated. Um, and, and he's, he was able to sell it really well when he explained, you know, anti-venom and care in the United States and the healthcare aspect to where they, they passed it, you know, they voted for it and they accepted it. And so, um, yeah, I mean, it's, I don't know, man, I did a five questions with Justin where we were talking all about, um, I just follow the rules. So like that guy's super

cool with us. He comes and inspects our shop and talks to Teresa. Like, you know, we never have any issues, but I also don't keep stuff I'm not supposed to keep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. So now you could keep pythons but your kids couldn't interact with them or how does that work so in a show setting uh and somebody over the age of 18 has to be in control of that specimen during the show so okay it's, it's also really broadly defined in that way. And so what I do is, um, like if it's a kid's birthday or at a festival or something, they want to take a picture holding a boa, they take it with me. And so I hold the head or like if they're, you know, they're kids.

So they're significantly shorter than me. Of course, you know, I'll like just put the head in the crook of my elbow and then let the tail sit on his shoulder or whatever. Yeah. Um, but you have to demonstrate that you are maintaining control in some way and then with like crocodilians and monitors if the public is within 10 feet without a barrier you have to tape their mouth um the only large monitors so they're they're very specific on that aspect but crocodilians is across the board hatchling to adult doesn't matter um okay and it's just you know it's it's simple stuff man like you get some electrical tape you wrap it around a gator snout they don't care like it doesn't do anything you know what i mean and um the control aspect like when i put a large python on the ground you know i have an assortment of hooks and I'm just kind of guiding their head.

I stand by the head. You can go pet the tail. Let's all sit crisscross and take a picture kind of thing. You know, it's nothing. None of it's overly complicated. Yeah. Until you get to like the family aspect where, you know, my kids are probably more educated and experienced than most kids yeah and like my son my youngest he's 12 he's also 6 1 and 195 pounds and so like he could pick up a boa

he's fine you know or a ball i thought they would probably assume he was 18 that size yeah yeah and we've had a lot of that where you know people will ask him at like big events hey can you help with this or do that or whatever and he's like i'm i'm not an adult like you know um they're like could have fooled me yeah but no i mean that's you know that was part of their education of helping out you know and in in in your home or in your private collection like there aren't any real regulations in regards to that other than you know venomous and the specific permits and so like they clean stuff and you know yeah clean the sand boas and move the ball pythons like that stuff's no big deal um it's just when they're exposed to the public

that's interesting that they went with a full like group ban rather than like a size or something like, like a maximum size type ban, you know, like anything that gets over eight feet or something. It's so hard to get them to really agree to anything. Like they don't recognize subspecies they don't like as taxonomic changes happen to whether or not because like emery's are endangered in illinois but i had a chance to get swinsky rats and i couldn't because the when the herptile code was written taxonomically they were a subspecies of emery and that they haven't caught up yeah and or things like that you know like yeah the yellow mud turtle isn't endangered here the illinois mud turtle is which is weird stuff right like that's been taxonomically recognized as a subspecies that is endangered in this state but i can't have the holotype species of the yellow mud turtle because it,

you know, I would, I mean, I can, if I put it on my endangered species permit, but like there's a lot of very weird regulations in that way because the people, the people that you have to get to agree to that and to vote on it aren't, are not educated on this stuff. And so, and nor do they care to be right you're not going to get them to participate in that manner right yeah we had a similar situation of course always runs into chance the snapper and gators

in lake michigan and stupid things so the only thing they do here is bad stuff and And then I want to ask about an endangered rat snake. And they're like, who is this dude? Like, no, get out of here. Yeah. Yeah. We had a similar situation in Utah where California king snakes were illegal to keep because they made their way into just a corner of Utah. And so, you know, they were a native species. But every pet store had one in it. So it's you know, they were a native species and illegal, but every pet store

had one in it. So it's like, why is this a law? This makes no sense to outlaw something that's in every pet shop, you know, or are you going to make a bunch of kids criminals? You know, sometimes it's, it's really frustrating, but you know, I think they've done some common sense changes to the law there. It's fine. You can even collect them from the wild if you have a permit with the permit comes like you have to do like an uh an educate like a little course where you have to answer some questions and learn the rules and things like that it's really kind of a common sense change and it's been really a neat thing to see and uh and i think you know i i don't think much has changed you know i don't

think yeah i don't think it's just open a floodgate for a legal collection or anything but it's you know it's it's more of a common sense thing which is refreshingly rare you know like it's or refreshing to see but rare rare to rarely happen these days with government yeah so yeah i guess you get lucky sometimes but yeah before that it was a little bit archaic and strange but yeah that's the big thing for us was prior to 2015 they just said no to all kinds of stuff and basically everybody kept outside of the rules yeah and a lot of the rules weren't enforced yeah um and then so they were like look this is ridiculous at any given time a bunch of people are criminals based on this law that we

don't bother enforcing so like yeah let's write something that makes sense and yeah i'm we did not we but they in our state uh they did a really good job with it so yeah that's good yeah and that's i mean that's, I mean, that's the trick, I guess. It's nice when they work together with the reptile community. We had a big deal going on with, with our, um, state, you know, and they, they were actually paying us to go out and do field surveys and stuff. So that was kind of a cool little run. But then, um, one of the members got caught with Gila monsters, which are a big no-no in Utah. And then he turned informant.

And so he went around trying to get dirt on everybody else in the group. And it just tore the group apart. Even though nobody was really doing anything illegal, they were kind of making up stories. And one of the guys lost his whole collection of rubber boas because of this. And they tried to make some case against him and it didn't fly. But in the meantime, they confiscated all his rubber boas and they all died in their hands, you know? So it's like, I don't know what, why,

why do they care so much about rubber boas when, you know, I don't know when, when he was above board in all regards and he didn't have anything illegal. So the moral of the story here is snitches get stitches and end up in ditches. No, the moral of the story is follow the rules and things will be fine. Yeah. I had a buddy once that,

uh, was, was having issues with a fellow herper that was doing crappy stuff to, you know, swindling and doing all this garbage. And his neighbor, his neighbor was a, uh, was in the mob. And he's like, you want me to take care of this guy for you in an, in an Australian accent. It was over in Australia. And he's, and he thought long and hard. He's like,

ah, I can't have that on my conscience. We'll let him live. Yeah. He had to think about it for a little while, but he, yeah, he said no. Right. That's probably a good choice. Yeah. But yeah, I guess, uh, sometimes, uh, we get, uh, pushed, pushed a little hard by silly things and silly people, but you gotta, gotta do what's right, I guess. Yeah. Well well that's cool what uh what new what new uh snakes do you say you got some new colubrids yeah uh some of the folks in the thn group i was posting there talking about how we were shifting things around trying to go less with boas and pythons for the kids and um i kind of got an assortment from i don't i don't breed stuff and so if somebody had like a one-off

male or whatever that doesn't that doesn't bother me at all that's perfect uh so just a straight up yellow rat uh with the classic just two stripe back a texas rat it's actually handleable so that's kind of a big deal and then some black rats that are locality specific i also have eastern black kings and so i do when i do lessons like if it's boy scouts or an actual ecology lesson or something like that where i'm specifically teaching to a class i do a lot of um like habitats across the united states and i use like you can use king snakes to teach that you can start in california and go to florida and show progression cool um rat snakes are the same way like you can work your way up and down the eastern seaboard and then west along the gulf explaining our country using rat snakes um and so it's it's mostly stuff like that i like

that yeah and like you know if they wouldn't all eat each other you could literally line king snakes up and see it yeah um so yeah just just stuff like that um my daughter of course is super into the invertebrates so she got a couple of new tarantulas and set up some more displays so that she can kind of man the table a little bit more while teresa does the bigger stuff uh and then my son's a turtle nerd so whenever i find cool turtles they end up at my house with my son so nice that's awesome i just got my daughter a group of herman's tortoises to play with so a little captive bred babies so that's been fun she's really enjoying that our buddy steve sharp loves turtles oh oh yeah they're his favorite now you're supposed to say he hates turtles no steve loves turtles stop stop uh steve loves all reptiles and um but yeah there i i'm like after getting those i'm like looking into different tortoise species going, what else can we get here?

Yeah, there's just so many cool reptiles. It's so hard. And tortoises are much closer, at least on the kid level, and then for adults as well. They're way closer to what you think you want your pets to do. Yeah. Like you want your dog to hang out with you but not bark and interrupt us. Or you want a cat to sit on the couch with you or whatever. Like tortoises are visual. They're treat driven.

They have personality like they do all the things a cat would do. They're just cooler. And when you're nine years old, that's what you actually want. You want a cool pet, not like your friend's cat. Why, Bill, are you saying that I might be able to trade Ruby in for a tortoise? what you actually want you you just you want a cool pet not like your friend's cat why bill are you saying that i might be able to trade ruby in for a tortoise that might be a good trade at this point they're a lot less uh a lot less effort to keep them happy too yeah well yeah if you're too kind to them and if you get a big enough one it'll still dig up your yard and destroy your furniture. So it's just like having a dog. Dude.

There you go. Dude. I love it when we can align animals. That's nice. I was disappointed we didn't see any Chelonians. I was looking real hard for mud turtles and desert tortoises and box turtles, but we didn't get lucky on this trip to see any. I mean, we got lucky to see plenty of good stuff, but no Chelonians. I was a little

down about that we did see a box turtle at bob's place did you get in there and dig for mud turtles a little bit yeah i had i was up to my elbows and i was gonna say steve steve was up to his elbows i did because couldn't couldn't remember if that was you or or dustin who had was up to their elbows but yeah i wanted i really wanted to find one yeah yeah i guess you need to yeah i need to try again but someday i'll find a mud that'd be a tough one to find i was kind of like oh man you just stick your hand in there and you just dig around in the mud till you find it like that seems like that could be a difficult like that's i found snake neck turtles that way in australia we found some eastern snake necks. That's cool.

I was just kind of walking through the ponds, swiping my hands back and forth. And finally, I kind of brushed one. I'm like, oh, there's one, and grabbed it. So that was cool. Yeah. Catch a snake neck turtle. It was kind of a gross pond. But hey, when you're in Australia, you got to get in there and find the turtle. I'm not sure i'm too sad about

finding mud turtles i've heard they're very very smelly so uh the musk turtles are not the most pleasant things to smell but yeah it would have been fun to see one i mean at that point in the trip though let's be honest we did not smell very good either oh that is very, that is very true. That is very true. All right. Well, should we, uh, fight a little,

you guys ready to, to throw down? For sure. Okay. Well, we're going to talk about, uh, I guess the pros and cons of having a big constrictors in the hobby.

Does that sound kind of what, what the topic you want to fight about? Yeah. Yeah. We, in the hobby does that sound kind of what what the topic you want to fight about yeah yeah we we messaged back and forth on several topics that was definitely one of them yeah i guess it was more of a method of keeping but okay yeah yeah all right um and then we'll uh we'll go ahead and flip the coin to see who gets to fight you. So you want to call it? Oh, that's sales. It's heads. Ah.

Let's see. I guess I'll go for it. Okay. Okay. That's cool. You want to moderate? Yeah, I will. And then we'll have Bill call it to see what side of the topic you get.

Heads. It is heads. Oh! Nice. All right, well, what would you like to defend? So we're doing pro-keeping of giant constrictors and con-keeping of giant constrictors. Oh, unless we want to refine unless you want a different way yeah we can we can do a different hey you won the coin toss

whatever you want no no my my original contention was the the method of keeping particularly retics but sometimes berms um so this would be like big cage versus small cage or no my thing was purposely keeping them overweight ah i see as opposed to because there are there are pros and cons to that from your safety perspective and a breeding perspective and things like that um and obviously on social media it ignited a lot of controversy because folks got upset seeing fat snakes um but there is you know um yeah what side of that issue do you want to take good to keep them big or i think better to keep them big or better to keep them small? So I personally disagree with keeping them the way some folks do overweight. So I will argue in favor of that to try and have a well-rounded debate.

Sounds good. All right. Well, do you want to go first or do you want to defer? Thanks. All right. Well, do you want to go first or do you want to defer? I will defer. Okay. I'll go first. So wait, so wait, so wait. Let's build a site again because I thought I understood. I'm pro fat retics. Okay. Profat retics. Justin is skinny and hungry.

Fighting machines. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. Sounds good. Ready to go.

I guess I would say the first pro of keeping your constrictors a little on the smaller side is that big, fat, lethargic snakes aren't going to breed. They'll probably have a shorter lifespan if they're, you know, overweight and oversized. And then, you know, of course, handling, they're going to be a lot more difficult to handle, especially if it's, you know, by yourself or with another person. A giant, a true giant, you know giant is going to be very, very difficult. So I think, like you said, there's lots of good aspects of keeping a smaller snake. And you probably spend a lot less on food if you're keeping them smaller. You're not feeding them as often. So I guess there's a

there's kind of a shotgun approach to a few of these things but i think you know in regards to to uh the you know getting them to that size and having them be larger um you know requires a lot of feeding and with with big constrictors i i'm not sure that they're necessarily designed, especially when they're adults, to eat as frequently as we feed them in captivity. And along with feeding frequently, you know, with the large constrictor, their organs actually change size. You know, their heart will increase inside their liver. You know, all their organs will increase in size when they take a big meal. I believe Gavin Bedford did some research on that and showed that if you feed a prey species that is 20% of the snake's mass or larger, that initiates those changes in physiology that allows them to digest a giant meal like that. And so if you're causing this growth and reduction in their organs frequently, that probably is not a good thing on their well-being, their longevity.

Are you saying that you think that feeding them like that and then allowing the organs to go back and then up and back and down versus like always feeding heavy and their organs are always enlarged or i would think that yeah that having that boom and bust you know those organs are probably designed to do that a little bit but to have them sure always in a constant state yeah that's probably pretty bad right yeah if you're feeding like weekly you know they're growing and then they may be, and maybe they don't have even time to go back down. And so they're having to support those larger organs. I mean, I guess my question would be like, why, why can they take such big meals? If you know, like, like I get it, it's probably not the best thing for them, but like, it's

probably not, you know, in the wild they're designed to take those larger meals, but they're not getting them weekly. They're getting them like once a month or less, and then that's lasting them for quite a long time. And if you look at a, I mean, you may see a wild retic that's very large. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. And there are some, especially animals that are very close to human habitation, like those giant water monitors out in Thailand or something, you know, that are park monitors. They're eating, you know, bread and stuff that people throw at them. Cats. Or corpses or whatever, you know, whatever they can find. They're eating just garbage. But they're giant, you know. So I don't know how long they, i don't know if anybody's done a study maybe they're just fine maybe they're great and they're happy and they live a very long life but

i tend to think that in captivity we don't see a lot of giant constrictors because we are keeping them wrong and feeding them too too often all right enough of you i want to hear from bill Bill's turn. Yeah. So in real life, I 100% agree with you. My actual feeding regimen is 10% of my large constrictor's body weight every four weeks. In my defense argument, the keeping of very large constrictors, specifically in the United States, is a commercial prospect. And they are treated as commercial animals and treated as livestock. And so my viewpoint on that is that you are looking at it from a shelf life tactic to let folks know that a reticulated python can achieve a giant size, be a beautiful display animal, and then pass away inside of 10 years. Seven to 10 years, you get a giant snake. It matches what you as an American pet keeper think of as a giant dog because it's kind of the same time frame.

Littler dogs, medium-sized dogs last a little bit longer. And to me, the entire thing is a sales tactic. And it's incredibly effective in the American market. It also, on the female side for these particular pythons, allows them to produce an astounding number of eggs and to reach sexual maturity in a very short period of time. And so if that animal's productive shelf life is shortened, but my goal is to produce a follow-on mutation with a combination of genes or a new gene or something of that nature,

then what I'm really concerned about is that animal's offspring and the speed at which I can get those offspring to sexual maturity. I'm not concerned with her, her longevity, because if the goal is a production of a new mutation, or the goal is the production of a number of babies that I'm trying to sell, then I can always get the smaller ones up to sexual maturity, feeding smaller items, just more of them. And then because we live in the United States, when you talk about the incredibly large constrictors, you can actually go to people food on the commercial side. And it is not necessarily cheaper, but it is comparative to keeping or breeding rodents and purchasing those if you were to purchase piglets or goats or things of that nature, because those are already

produced at a massive scale in the United States. And rodents are as well, but rodents are for laboratory purposes and then secondarily for our market we are considered a very secondary market to that whereas piglet production uh male chickens uh things like that that's a primary market in the united states as a food staple and so you can dip into that and have a cost savings on your end it's just a really good business model um and, and it, my, my thing in this particular argument is that it's a, it's a philosophical difference from what you are describing. What you were describing is a responsible pet keeper. You're someone that understands natural history. You are to even reference Gavin's work, like that takes a certain level of education and a style and commitment to a certain type of herpetoculture.

And the perspective that I'm coming from is not that is commercial animal production. And the standards at commercial animal production are that's why grass fed beef is so fancy. Organic pork and things like that as opposed to commercial farming and in this instance this is commercial farming of python mutations just not for it to me is quite literally the skin trade without skinning them yeah yeah and and i guess you know if you're looking to make a, an easy dollar or something like that, you know, yeah, there's, there's something to that, but I, I guess, uh, you know, if, if you're shooting for giant clutches a lot, I mean, sometimes you'll

get them. And a lot of times if those things have fallen out of fat or don't sell very quickly, you've got a giant group of snakes that you've got to maintain and feed and all those kind of things. And so, I mean, you can dump them wholesale or sell them cheap, but then that puts out a very cheap, potentially dangerous pet out there. And then we wind up with a bunch of retics and rescues or you know Burmese pythons and rescues and that's you know never a good thing so I would I would say you know if anybody's got that attitude of I'm going to feed this thing up so I can get 50 eggs or 100 eggs from it and then you know they they realize wait, I don't have 100 cages or I don't have, you know, 106-foot enclosures for when these things get some size on them in the next couple months or whatnot, you know, and I need to house them in large areas. You know, a lot of herpetoculturalists are short-sighted. No, no.

Did you know the industry standard is only one square foot per foot of snake length? Yeah, that's a good point. That's perfectly acceptable when you get to 18 to 24-foot-long giant pythons. Right, right. Do you know the industry standard is only one square foot per foot of snake length? Yeah, that's a good point. That's perfectly acceptable when you get to 18 to 24 foot long giant pythons. Right, right. No big deal. They don't need a pond, just a water bowl is fine. Yeah.

So, you know, I think, of course, that's some good sarcasm there. And I appreciate that and yeah i mean we if we're not keeping them appropriately we're probably not doing justice to such a magnificent snake and and again that's why you don't see a lot of magnificent reticulated pythons around because you know you see them at a few few places that uh kind of are pumping them out or, or breeding them or whatnot. But, um, but do you, do you feel like, do you feel like though that, uh, I feel like, uh, you know, kennels are littered with Belgian Malinois that people thought would be the greatest idea in the world until they had to deal with that dog and realize, Holy shit. It's a, you know, it's,

it's a meth addict with teeth. Uh, you know, so, I mean, I, I feel like we do that across the board and I'm not excusing it like in this situation, but I mean, you could go, you could go to dogs or, uh, I mean, you know, other instances of inappropriate pets, uh, that people got for maybe the wrong you know the wrong incentivized reasons uh you know and it happens right like so you know why i guess my thing would be like what why are big constrictors any different than the way we treat other stuff not that it's right i'm not saying that i'm just saying like you know no we do we do do that there is that you know there is there are people going wait i didn't realize it would grow that big that fast or or you know i i

thought i could keep it small by keeping it in a small cage and never feeding it and you know things like that or or uh it was i really didn't realize what it meant to have a you know 15 foot python or a 12 foot python or a 10 foot python you know that's a and that's a lot of snake and i've got a bad attitude and look i will say this and i have an employee who found out that i was super into snakes and he was telling me like before he shipped off to the marine corps i think i've even said this story where he's he had an african rock and you know he it got really big and it was kind of like a whole like he had he learned the whole like, oh, wow, this thing's going to be huge. I didn't

realize it, but he stuck with it and he provided a good home for it. And, you know, he had to he found a good place for it to live after he shipped off to the Marine Corps because it wasn't fair for his parents to have to take care of such a big snake. And so I hear what you're saying, but I think maybe you're selling some people short. Like not everybody goes, oh, my gosh, this is not what I thought it was. And then just abandons it and walks away. Like, I think that's kind of, you know, I think that that, you know, I think I think what you're saying appeals to the to the most. But were you surprised about your friend? What do you mean?

Like, was I surprised? Was it, like, shocking that he actually gave it a good enclosure and that he was taking the time to find a good home for it, things like that? And did you want to take it on? Well, no. I mean. Yeah. So, I mean, it's the exception to the rule, right rule, right? Like most people don't keep them like that.

OK, that's your I mean, yeah, again, I don't have any data to back that. Yeah, I think you're I mean, I'm just saying you're you're giving anecdotal evidence that that's the way it is. And I just wanted to counter with some anecdotal evidence that it may not always be that way. That's all I'm saying. Sure. I can appreciate that yeah yeah yeah there's a couple of prongs on that one um one that is totally in your favor but i can't get through this episode and not bring it up is um the vast majority of those snakes don't ever live to get big yeah if they did we'd be overrun with them yeah we've produced thousands hundreds of thousands at this point with the amount of clutches that you see come out of the west coast specifically um it's just impossible that all those snakes reached adult size they didn't no they didn't um so that's a huge negative on my argument but um that that is a legit thing in herpeticulture yeah um but the on the the keeping them huge side the one of the key

parts of that is it is a super like gross topic but it also prevents like they don't last as long. So you, you're not going to have someone that has to deal with it for 15, 20, 30. Like when you start to look at old literature, you're talking about snakes living into their thirties and forties that are 18 feet long. Like that's it. We can't get people to keep socata tortoises you know let alone something that could take out your dog um and so there is a in my opinion morally inappropriate side of it but it is a sales tactic in that it's seven to ten years and then it got too fat and then now you don't have to worry about it anymore. And that in that particular realm of selling those types of animals, that is actually viewed as a positive. And the fact that they get, sorry, go ahead. No, I mean, I think, I think that I'm

like, like, as you said, what would happen if all those large constrictors that got sold for cheap and pet stores were still around we we as reptile keepers might have we might have more problems than we already do right like oh no yes absolutely and yeah i guess i i guess i would would think that's you know of course that's maybe a selling point, but that's a sick mind that uses that as a selling point. You know, like, this thing will probably die. You know, this thing won't last long, you know. And if that's the way we're, you know, kind of viewing this or we think, oh, that's probably a good thing. I mean, yeah, you're right.

It is probably good that they don't all survive. But man, what a waste of life to just pump something out just to have it die because people can't properly care for it. In my mind, that will probably... I agree with you, but it helps my argument. Sure. Yeah, I get that. You're playing devil's advocate and you obviously took the more difficult side, which is admirable. But, you know, and and to be fair, I don't even think humans can treat each other very well. So asking humans to go in and have compassion for, you know, something that can't speak for itself. It's a tall ask sometimes yeah and you wonder if people if if legislators got that in their in their heads that oh these people are just pumping these out and they're dying you know and they're not being cared for so let's just make them illegal you know

then the people who well you know for sure things like hsus are using that as an argument oh yeah because it's a wonder it's a wonderful argument against us. Yeah. You know, we don't really have a rebuttal. Yeah. And we should, I mean, yeah, we should be doing better. We should be respecting life no matter what that life is. And if you can't care for it and you can't find a good home for it, you know, that becomes difficult. And not many people are equipped to handle a hognose snake let alone a you know 12 foot 15 foot you know giant snake so

that becomes very difficult yeah well and then on the handling aspect so that is actually something that is unfortunate but works to the the favor of my current argument of, I'm trying really hard not to name out people's videos, but if you watch social media, you've seen a lot of big retake videos and the reason that some, so that's very sensationalized, right? And they, they strike at people and all this nonsense this nonsense um which we all know works in social media and and sells and gets clicks and generates revenue and that if you are a person who is experienced with large constrictors large healthy constrictors um they they have the potential to be very dangerous animals they're they're strong. They are very large.

And it's a serious commitment. And when you keep them in the manner that we're talking about, where they're more obese and are generating eggs, they're in nesting behavior, they're very territorial, and you see the striking and, Oh, it's scary or whatever. It's actually safer for the person who is working with that animal, that that animal is so overweight because that 18 to 20 foot snake does not have the ability to launch itself naturally. It's trying. You can see in those videos that those snakes are trying, they, they're trying hard to get you and they just can't move their fat selves to do it and so in the grand scheme of things we are we're not very dexterous and we are not very agile for monkeys like we we would not do

well in the jungles of indonesia with a real 20 plus foot animal right something that has spent its life in the forest hunting deer you're not that impressive like i am not faster than deer um the the flip to that is keeping them the way that i keep them it is very difficult the the we have a female right now. She's right around the 16-foot mark. She's probably a little thinner than my thigh, I would say. She's absolutely still able to climb. Everybody's seen the snake locomotion video of the male retic going kind of straight up the telephone pole, how they do the cool looping and that thing. She absolutely is able to do that. She can do it straight up me. And she's trying to sit on my head because she wants to be off the ground. And they have way more energy than we do. So she just

goes and goes and goes. And it's to my benefit in public demonstrations, because then she'll just wander around the field and people can see how she moves. And that's wonderful. But it is an extraordinary amount of work for one person. We always used to. If she were fat and sluggish, it would make my life a lot easier. I would really only have to hook her head end into the travel box. And I could just scoop the rest of her fat self um there's a reason people like to use burmese pythons in this type of environment is because they're an ambush predator

that gets fat and sits in the mud naturally and so they they just hang out in the sun and you can take a picture of the big yellow snake like that's why you do it the the problem is that it's not in my my current defense it's not a problem it's a good thing is that if you keep retics like berms they act like berms they get really fat and they sit there because it's hard to move all that weight around um you were you were just mentioning afrox afrox are actually my favorite giant snake. They're pretty cool. Because they are, well, they are, when you look at them, they seem to be quite similar to a berm. But then they do not have the forest cover of a reticulated python. They're exposed grassland animals. So they're incredibly defensive.

They're wildly powerful. Yeah. They're wildly powerful. But folks have shown that when they bred the patternless and had a few generations, they're pretty chill. And so the major benefit that we've shown in keeping retics in the way that I'm currently defending is we've pumped out tons of generations. We're trending toward similarity to ball pythons in that other than the nesting territorial behavior that people sensationalize, they're actually really chill. They eat out of the egg. They're easily handled. There's a million different colors. You know, it is, it has helped with the commercialization of the species. It's not domesticated, but it's trending that direction in the way that a ball python is trending that direction right and so you you do have people that are now able to keep

these larger animals whereas when you got wild caughts in when i was in college you know a wild caught larger than 10 or 12 feet was a legit dangerous animal yeah yeah because it just came out of indonesia it can see your face and eyes it knows what a monkey is you know it that's a dangerous predator yeah whereas the way that we currently keep them is could be viewed as a negative for them but it's all positive for us and so if this is a keeper centric ethos in that I'm more concerned with the people are concerned with the wellbeing of people. Then keeping retics in that way is better for people.

It might not necessarily be better for retics, but it's the entirety of it is better for keepers. Sure. Well, and do you feel like it makes me feel gross to even say, yeah, understood, understood. And rightfully so. to even say, yeah, understood, understood.

And rightfully so. But, you know, in the wild, why do they have large clutches? Because a lot of the snakes get picked off. So a lot of them don't even make it to adulthood or to that large size. Yeah, that that that. So so to the point I'm making is that in captivity, you know, almost 100 percent of that clutch survives until some form of adulthood, whether that's a short life live a longer life than a lot of the, you know, wild, wild occurring animals that are out, you know, out. Oh, yeah. Like statistically speaking, you know, like the biggest thing about keeping them large and having, you know, some of the issues that we've talked about, be it, you know, releasing things in the wild, like the problem with the Burmese pythons down in Florida. It just puts a really easy target on us for legislation and animal rights groups and things like that, you know, and so that, and, you know, the, you see these stories of, like, drug dealers that, you know, their kid dies, and they blame it on the Burmese python, like that story from, you know, what, a decade ago or something, and,

I mean, there were, it was like, they almost used the, the berm or retake or whatever they had as an, as a scapegoat, you know, to, to pin that. But the media ran with that story, even though the evidence didn't really line up with a large constrictor cause death. So, you know, just these things and, and granted that those, that those people were keeping the snake illegally and, you know, you these things and granted that those that those people were keeping the snake illegally. And, you know, you're probably not going to stop illegal behavior, but it just makes it easier for these lawmakers to to put us in a to pigeonhole us in these irresponsible keepers. And, you know, that that always makes for for a rough deal for us i think trying to put baby in the corner i agree the caveat i would say to that is that that current social media driven model of education if that's what you can call it, whatever,

it's much more entertainment, but a lot of folks try to classify that on the education side. Um, that sensationalism generates negative attention to your point. but it that generates a lot of positive attention as well it a lot of people like they want to see giant stuff and it i'm kind of biased because i am an educator on in this field but it's so much easier to everybody wants to come see a big yellow snake yeah and then i can talk about i can talk about anything I want because I already have their attention. Whereas if I'm trying to use a crested gecko who has such a way cooler story, we thought they were extinct. Dudes found them in the 90s. They eat baby food.

Now they're everywhere. So much cool story I could tell. Yeah. But it sits on my thumb and it's ornate. You don't really care. You do if I am a good storyteller and I have a skill

in education and a skill in presentation, that takes way more work on my part. I could just go on YouTube with a giant snake and millions of people will pay attention. And so I logically understand why people are doing that because it's effective and and you you know i don't have an argument to say that it's not

effective um which helps me currently but like i said not really and i and i kind of feel like, look, you can look across the social media and the modern day carnival circus that humanity is. And just because something is what we would see as like, oh, that's not a good look. That's not ethical. That doesn't mean that the rest of society, maybe they can understand that in some way, but not everybody has the same moral efficacy as somebody like the doctor over here arguing for protection for animals. So even the way somebody who cares for animals understands the issues. The average person who sees that may not even interface that. They may not say, well, that's not good.

But hey, look at that. Check that out. That's crazy. That's cool. That's this. That's that. And they're not necessarily hyper focused on the health and welfare of that animal or whatever. They're just kind of in there for the like, Oh, this is nuts. I'm,

I'm thrilled. I'm excited. I'm this, I'm that. Um, and, and so, you know, that that's not to say that we shouldn't, you know, be concerned about those things. But I think, you know, a lot of times we get, we as keepers and reptile enthusiasts get hung up and animal enthusiasts get hung up on the, the, um, you know, the, the, the, the properness and the rights of the animal and the things like that. The public at large, you know, they're just, they're, they're more scared of it than they

are worried about the, the, the health and welfare of the animal. That's, I think that's something that, um, animal rights groups use to drum up funding and to pull on heartstrings. And I think when you point it out to people, they're like, oh yeah, okay. But I don't think the average person really thinks about that. Yeah. It's really hard to show that with reptiles. It's the 30 second length of a TikTok scroll. Exactly. It's really hard to show that with reptiles though. I mean, you can get Sarah McLachlan

singing about puppies and stuff, and it's a lot easier to show a neglected dog and see it looking sad and looking scared and things. And that definitely hugs at the tart strings. Hugs at the tart strings. Oh, I think we have a new phrase. But, you know, what really grinds my gears, you want to hear what really grinds my gears, is when they lump my little Antaresia pythons, because they're pythons, in with large retics or, you know, with the giant snakes. And they just say, we're going to ban pythons. Pythiology doesn't lie, man.

It's a python. Dangerous animal. It's a python. It's going to get you. It'll constrict you, you know. So, you know, these little tiny pythons that can't do anything, you know, as far as damaging a person other than maybe drawing a little blood, which they do from time to time. But, you know, I'm not dying over it and it's not potentially life-threatening in any way. But, you know, they get under that umbrella, like you said, in your state where kids can't keep pythons regardless of the size. And for the record, just real quick, are you saying that Eric Burke with his guitar singing about carpet pythons is less than Sarah McLachlan singing about dogs and cats. Is that what you're trying to say?

I haven't seen that. I think we need to see that. Yes. I need to see it to judge that, you know, maybe it will. Yeah. I think we need to go fund me a commercial. Time for the pod father to put out a video. Yeah. I could just see him. He needs to be standing on a rock, a big rock somewhere in the sunset playing his epic solo yes that would be fantastic with his with his long long flowing hair you know i digress we move on yeah so you know that that idea of of using large pythons to to you know ban other things that are of no consequence you know as far as safety and things is is a negative aspect of that so i agree with what you're saying about

you know it because my state does that and i i acknowledge that it's silly that my daughter can't hold a ball python at a festival yeah however in order to effectively go through the the bureaucratic method to make that type of law logical to us right you would need her pediculture at large to admit just exactly how dangerous some of the animals we keep are and i don't think they're ever going to do that because and it that is something that like i'm a bigger dude i like giant stuff when i do stuff for the rescue or i help the state with amnesty and things like that that all the things i help them with are large typically dangerous species and i i have a skill for that or what have you um you nobody's mom wants to hear that I help with dragons and giant pythons that try to bite you. And I have several pairs of welding gloves, all these giant hooks and locks on all these

things, you know, and that's all factual. That is accurate. I don't want to get wrapped up by the retic that I have. She's for real. She's a big, really strong snake, like not messing around. I have two alligators. That's not a pet. It's an educational animal.

That'll take your hand off, right? My alligator snapping turtle could take your hand. He's huge. huge like just but in order to accurately write a law like that you know everybody has to admit they speed and then we'll just make the speed limit 85 your insurance will go up and when you get into a car wreck something bad's gonna happen yeah well we're not gonna do that i don't ever of course i do the speed limit cheap insuranceap insurance. That's what I want. And I work in this industry in a way that I have to have insurance. And my insurance is very expensive because actuaries who look at that in a mathematical, straight up, I don't care way are like, like dude 15 feet long with that kind of jaw

pressure that many teeth that equates to this many dollars of surgery so that's how much it costs your insurance yeah you know and if if you want if her pediculture at large wants lawmakers to acknowledge that rosy boas are not the same as red-tailed boas, then you need to acknowledge why. You can't just say it's because rosy boas are safe. You have to say it's because red-tailed boas are less safe. You can't just say it's because anteresia are harmless because that means that retics are not harmless. And then that means they're probably not a good pet for an eight-year-old at NARBC. And that's going to cut out a big part of your market when you're trying to market to a big box store and we don't want to do that well we should do that that's a hard yes

yeah i would say that yeah and i'm sure you agree with that yeah agreed yeah we shouldn't be marketing to eight-year-olds walking through NARBC or something. We should be more responsible than that. But unfortunately, you know. Yeah. But I guess to your point, I mean. You've got to sell 60 eggs a clutch, man. Yeah, exactly.

Somebody's got to take those things. And who better to fool than a stupid kid, you know. Yeah. But I guess, you know, from. There's an entire market for guinea pigs. Yeah. But I guess, you know, from a... There's an entire market for guinea pigs. Yeah. They're an awful thing that jumps in the air and bites people, and it's just a food product in South America. They just convinced Americans to buy them.

See, I would be on board with that. Like, if it gets too feisty, just cook it up for dinner, you know? Whoa! Why not? Whoa! Hey, why do we value some as food and others as not, you know? Tommy, you knock it off. Steak and gator, they're good. Yeah, yeah, gator is tasty.

Tommy, you knock it off or your guinea pig's going to be dinner. Oh, yeah. I mean, my parents lived in West Africa, and they had a barbecue on the beach. And there were some islander from Tonga or one of the South Pacific islands. And they brought a dog for the

roast. That was the meat that they were cooking up on the beach. Did the dog walk itself there? It did. And it was slaughtered on the beach. I mean, any American would be appalled and calling animals. I have done that with a goat. Yeah.

I've done that with a goat. And I've met plenty of goats that are way smarter than my dog. Yeah. I mean, there's plenty of food, you know, food animals that other countries, I mean, we can't, we can't eat horse. It's illegal to eat horse meat, but most countries eat horse meat. What's the difference between a horse and a cow? I mean, they're both big, you know. And I think that's, that's kind of some of the point I was trying to make is that uh you know and uh you know tradition so i it's it's one of those things where it's kind of you know you kind of got to check some of your stuff at the door sometimes yeah the classic example of that is when you tell people you like snakes they tell you about the time they kill the snake but yeah if somebody tells you they like

puppies and you tell them the story of when you killed a puppy, you would be a monster. But they tell you with pride how they chopped it up and used its rattle on their hat or whatever. It is a very sliding scale of morality and just boggles the mind why some life is okay and others is not. But I don't know. I guess it's just tradition or they got a bad rap from the Bible or whatever. People are afraid of snakes more than they are of dogs. And the data shows that dogs are much more scary and dangerous than snakes are. So more deaths occur at the teeth know, at the, at the teeth

of dogs than they do at the squeezing coils of a snake. I don't know. How do we, more deaths occur in the teeth of humans in the United States than the teeth of snakes. That's very true. Yeah. And, uh, it's funny how they, you know, they, they're so free to, to ban snakes, but I mean, how many school shootings do we have and they're not going to touch guns or come within 20 feet of guns? But if school children were dying from snakes in the classroom, you guarantee there would be no snakes in America after that. We won't get into that, I guess. I'll probably take off. Well, I mean, look at a look at a country like India where, you know, the the Madras Crock Bank is in all these different things. And and they, you know, India, Bangladesh, areas like that have a huge issue with death by snake bite and culturally still call a guy to come get it.

Or, you know, you have a relative like you you don't kill a lot of stuff there you know and it yeah the the ethics of those things are i mean all the people that we know in australia you know everybody you know in australia has like their county or whatever they call it in australia snake catcher dude right you know there are there are folks you know of course in that society and culture that still kill them but um they have a an incredible array of dangerous animals in in that area and it's a thriving part of their culture to have a person who just removes it and not kill it as you know it's just a the cultural differences from that aspect are monstrous when you look at the danger level in some places in comparison to the United States, as opposed to our, I would probably argue, hysterical reaction, as opposed to the reaction of folks in Bangladesh, folks in India, but, you know, who don't have the equipment. There is no ambulance coming for 9-1-1.

You know, all of the massive cultural differences in many ways. And then tack on to it, cobras. You know, it's astounding. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I don't know what's going to change that. But it does seem like the and, you know, people like you that are educating see less and less of that fear and loathing and hatred. For sure. See more curiosity and interest and excitement about these things. So, and I think we're seeing that, you know, in our day-to-day lives and,

and, you know, Well, I mean, even to, to the brass tacks of that, that's political. It's, it's, it's legal maneuvering for our keeping and progressively over time, at least in the United States, things have become more liberal in kind of a natural progression. Now we're fighting about it and politically and so on and so forth. But, um, I honestly think most of those things are to our benefit because when you look at other political avenues and legislation and things like that, most people are cool with laws being slightly more liberal as opposed to slightly more conservative. The caveat being they want structure and information and education. You know, when you look at something, something that when I was in high school would have been crazy, right?

Like weed, legalized weed. That's insane. No, you can see a method for states that did something like that. There was a structure and an explanation and a revenue stream all of these things were laid out and explained and so on and so forth and then even and now even places that would be considered conservative are looking at acceptance of those things because there was a structured information driven layout of that. Yeah. I, the current political climate in Florida for reptiles sucks.

And that's very unfortunate. Yeah. But the, for the longest time I, I championed the way that they did their venomous and, and Illinois followed suit with the 250 hours of education and you need a mentor and things of that nature wisconsin has some similar things i think it's wonderful yeah that's that allows us to explain to people there's a structure there's

education we're taking responsibility you know that allows the average person to be much more comfortable for a Senator or, you know, representative, what have you. I'm cool with that. I don't like that. But if you can show me that you're going to do it in a way that makes sense to me, you know, and then in this instance is the same way. Yeah. Giant snakes scare the crap out of me. I don't think you should have them. Okay. Well, here's what we do. Here's how we keep them. Here are the enclosures. Here's the safety things. In Illinois, when I go in public, my kids don't play with pythons and on and on and on. Well, I make do with that by teaching with rat snakes. And in return, nobody messes with me about keeping giant pythons. So it's just a – it has nothing to do with my argument, obviously. No, I think –

It's a structure of compromise. Yeah. of compromise yeah but the conservative side of that argument would be no government just needs to stay out of it wholly and not involve themselves at all and we should be able to just do whatever we want whenever we want because oh so you're talking about conservative history books not current conservatives well i mean i think yeah i mean i think think, well, I think the people in the reptile industry who would call themselves conservatives have that that view of, hey, the government shouldn't be here telling me what, you know, if I get hurt. Much more libertarian. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And so. Yeah. When you hear Ron St. Pierre talk about reptiles as a counterculture, that's what he means.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, he speaks about that pretty extensively. Yeah. I think too, if, if we're, um, showing that we do have a very large market and that people are buying more reptiles than ever before. And if you ban these reptiles, you're going to, you know, cost people their jobs. I mean, I think that speaks pretty loudly to government. And so if we can demonstrate that there's something good from this. Now, it's difficult to do that, I think, with the large constrictor market because you can't show all these.

I guess you can show that there's some money to be made. I think that speaks to government. I don't know if it speaks loudly. Yeah, I mean, it speaks. It's their language. Dollars are their language. My thing is that. Sorry.

No, no, you're saying that I agree with is that it's the reason that things like Florida are destined to fail. They're not going to ban everything because the way it's actually – exactly. But it's not. What is a big market is the infrastructure to create equipment and enclosures and lights and what all these things our infrastructure of creating animals is in your basement and that's not regulated or taxed and doesn't help me at all factories that build a bunch of lights for all these little fish and all these little lizards and small snakes, and it can go on a shelf. And that is tax dollars. That has a payroll and trucks and trains that haul stuff and on and on and on.

And so there is a legitimate argument to be made for economics in that way, whereas the reptile production industry is huge in the scope of a person like me who has a regular job. Yeah. In the scope of government and infrastructure and things like that, it sounds like a lot of money, but it's just divided up between like five dudes that produce for big box stores and then a million guys like us. Yeah, that's true. Who cares? Yeah. Like 999,000 of us don't claim it on our taxes

so that doesn't matter and those five guys that produce for big box stores produce for things that go into little plastic enclosures they build in a factory that actually pays taxes and they're a drop in the bucket and retakes don't go in that yeah well i will i will make it clear that i have an llc and i pay my taxes and me too yes i do as well i think the state is listening for this but that's rare they're always listening yeah but but just yeah i guess but you know i guess you're right though there are a lot of people that kind of fly under the radar or it's viewed as a hobby and things like that. So, um, yeah, that's, that's a harder case to make, but I was, I was trying to help out your side, but it's, it's difficult. No, and it, you know, it's a hard side to argue. No, well, I think there is something that's, uh, you know, kind of goes along with your side and you mentioned

it, uh, to some extent, but like i was talking to terry phillips about you know the reptile gardens and kind of what's what's the draw and he said you have to have the big five you have to have a giant crocodilian a giant snake a giant tortoise a giant lizard yep and something else like oh the most venomous you know you need something extremely venomous and if you have those five things that'll draw a crowd because like you, like we know, people are not educated. They just care about the size of the snake. They don't care if it's rare or if it's hard to find, or if it's, you know, unique in some way, they just want to see a big snake, you know? So that, that's, uh, and that's why you see a Burma retake or a frog and you don't see a King Horn eye, a giant king horn eye because most zoos are like i would rather

have a big large constrictor than a athletic large constrictor that it would be scary as shit and not fun to have to move around or do anything with yeah yeah exactly yeah they have i mean i have i fall into the terry's method uh-huh yeah i. I mean, I've read, he's written on that before, and I've seen some videos and stuff based off of his collection. Like, in Illinois, I keep a boiga, but because of Illinois rules, I have to keep it in a, it's a locked, impact-resistant, blah, blah, blah, because it's venomous.

Yeah. I put that sucker dead center on the table at the festival. Check it out. Bright green snake, bunch of locks, skull and crossbones on it. And people walk around that thing. And then I, and then I teach them the word epistoglyph, you know, and or like just stuff like that where it's because that is, that's the interest generator. You know, I, my wife will walk around a festival following a giant sulcata tortoise and then you'll follow her back to my tent where the other stuff is.

And that's, that really is how you have to appeal to people in a large setting like that. Yep. And that was the draw when I was a kid. Like I wanted a Burmese Python cause it was a giant Python and giant Pythons are cool. Now I'm, I'm just happy to go see him in the wild. I don't necessarily need to keep them in a box, but like, you know, that, that was a, that was a big draw for me. And I had a Burmese Python and it, and it attacked my, my kid, little kid brother. And like he had to get some teeth surgically removed from his skin, you know, from you have to take him into the doctor to get the teeth removed.

And I felt really bad about that. And it, and I think it got mouth rot not long after that. So my brother must not have tasted very good, you know, but yeah, so it was, it was, uh, it was kind of a learning experience, me learning learning I didn't want to keep a giant snake, you know. And like you said, maybe it was a good thing it died quickly and that kind of thing, because I probably wouldn't have done the best job with a giant snake for 30 years. I probably would have tried to find somewhere to take it. And if nobody could take it, I'd take it to the everglades and you know i'm just kidding but you know i think those kind of things here yeah exactly so those kind of things uh you know they can this is a huge you know issue i think in our in our

hobby and i mean you know you see it with large mammals, like maybe a tiger or, you know, big cats or things that are potentially dangerous, you know, and then you wind up with somebody kind of going crazy and releasing all their bears and big cats and where was that that was you know uh that one was in ohio yeah i was gonna say and a not advertised version of that with reptiles happened in indiana uh and involved a croc monitor and several other species yeah um that happens more often than you think and if you're in the reptile rescue amnesty world, there have been a lot of crazy things stored in some of my friends' bathrooms waiting for the police to arrive. So that's a thing. You know, it does happen. Yep.

And again, that just brings the higher scrutiny level of the press and the community and lawmakers and those kind of things. So just got to be careful. But that said, there will always be a black market demand for dangerous apex predators and dangerous animals, right? Whether or not we regulate it black market. Yeah. I mean, whether we regulate it out of an open market, that will never change the fact that, you know, people, people who want the bravado and have the money or whatever, we'll go out and seek and find and there will be people out there who will deliver dangerous animals. So, you know, obviously we should do our best.

I mean, we live in a country that's diverse enough that we could just go get one. Yeah. Like you can go, I can drive six and a half hours down 55 to Mississippi and just get a gator. Yeah. Like that's not a smart thing to do, but I could do it. Yeah, exactly. get a gator yeah like that's not a smart thing to do but i could do it like yeah exactly yeah you know and unfortunately um you can go on vacation in florida and just get yourself a

berm too like yeah to to not to not acknowledge that as a reptile keeper is silly yeah um which is you know which is interesting the states you know keeping legalities of it versus you can just go grab one out of the wild. It's kind of like, okay. I mean, look at HROX and things like that. One of my friends moved to New Mexico and bought a small ranch. And he was so excited to text me because these green rattlesnakes are just everywhere. He just, he sent me all kinds of pictures, coolest thing ever. I could just go to my friend's backyard and get one because he thought it was

cool because I'm his token reptile nerd friend. Yeah. My cousin kept threatening me or not threatening but he's like he lived he moved to florida and he was he was crazy you know he's a little off his rocker but he kept saying oh dude there's alligators everywhere i'll send you one i'll send you i'm like no do not send me an alligator in the mail like that's not a good thing that would not work out knocking on your door yeah i'll just be like okay look at his at his record. He's, he's crazy. He's living in the swamps, you know?

And he was very wealthy not long ago. I said, don't do that. Yeah, exactly. I didn't, I didn't want him to and I'm turning it right over to you as soon as it gets there. I do not think that that would make it all the way through the mail, but hopefully I would hope that, but you way through the mail, but hopefully not. I would hope not, but you never know.

No, that's fair. Well, any other things we missed or have we kind of beat it to death like a little puppy? That was terrible. be my terrible actual thought process on that is that i i'm in your camp i'm pro keeping them yeah lean and muscular um with the acknowledgement that that means that her pediculture as a whole we realistically should be keeping far less of them and it and and have some standards serious standards around who should yeah and i i don't like telling people what to do because i don't want people to tell me what to do yeah but i and i talk about a lot in a million other podcasts and stuff that we were all on. I think of herpeticulture like an actual hobby, like an artistic hobby.

And if you do it for a really long time, you're probably not a hobbyist. You're probably an artisan or you develop a skill in those things artistically. And I equate this to kind of the same idea. And I think it's easier to develop a culture of that. Like, we don't need to go tell everybody, you can't have a retick. If people like us who've been in for a long time and have larger collections and maybe are more experienced and there's a better way to get that across to new people. And it's just like having kids, man. Like if you just tell them no, that they're going to turn to teenagers and go do it anyway just to stick it to you. You know, whereas it I'm kind of biased because that's the part of her pediculture that I do. But it's it's the education aspect of you. You need to honestly teach people. And, hey, this is what's going on with these types of snakes.

And everybody starts with a ball python and a corn snake for a reason because they're great. Cool. And here's the progression. And this is why it makes sense. And, you know, green rat snakes are really hard to keep alive. That's why we don't do that. And, like, just acknowledge those things and acknowledge them with new people. And we would develop a culture of, I'm not going to buy a giant retic. I'll buy a morph corn.

I'll buy a morph ball. I'll look at... If you like pied stuff, there's... Yeah, but like silly things. Like we are pretty quickly showing that some of these genetic mutations for pattern and color seem to be prevalent in a lot of reptiles. Look at pied. It shows up in all sorts of stuff. You don't necessarily need a 12-foot one when you could have a 4-foot one that's a ball. Or a Pied blood-red corn.

That's like the coolest snake I've ever seen in my life. And it's the size of my thumb and three feet long. That's great. You know, it's yeah, there's just a better way to do it that doesn't break down to us telling people no, because we're sounds bad because I don't want to totally screw people who are in her pediculture, but we really should have depressed that market a long time ago. Like there's a lot of people that bred water monitors and we're crushing it and doing a super great job. And now you don't see them on social media as much anymore.

Yeah. Yeah. Cause there's no place to put a bunch of six foot lizards yeah like i think that's that's why akis are popular that's why like mike stefani is crushing it with mertens because it looks like a water it's a little bit bigger than an aki and it won't eat your cat yeah like yeah and i'm a dude that only has giant monitors. I have a 40-inch Argus and a four-foot water. Like, I know why they're cool. Yeah.

But I also know why a million people have Ackies and, like, 10 dudes have Argus that care, you know? Well, and that said, I mean, I think if I – I'm not going to keep a large monitor, but if there was a way that I could get a parenti, you better believe I'd be getting a room free in my house to keep a parenti. So, you know, yeah, there, and I guess I don't want to be like, listen, kids, I love you, but you got to find a new place to live. Yeah. Well, and, and I mean, we are kind of moving towards that empty nest stage, so I should have a room freed up here or there. Just in case. Let me know if you've got an available parenti. Yeah, yeah.

But I do think if it was illegal for anybody to own a parenti no matter what, then that would be kind of a sad state. And we do live in a country where we have freedoms. And so I don't want to see them banned outright. But I do think there should be some, you know, they should do some research. They do, you know, if we had a system like the hour system with Venomous with something like a large constrictor or a large water monitor, they have to go work with one with somebody else and get, you know, get their training and get their hours before they can have one themselves. That would be kind of.

I think that's totally reasonable. Yeah. A good, a common sense, you know, solution to that. So, but, you know, as long as we have that attitude of don't tell me what to do. Well, I mean, I think, I think there's a reason that attitude came about. Right. I mean, I think there's been a lot of sacrifice and a lot of, you know, blood spilled so that we can be a quote unquote free society that, you know, values freedom. And what are we doing if we can't, you know, if we can't enjoy what, you know, what those freedoms are and if the government just tells you, no, you can't

do this and you can't do that, it kind of cuts at what America sees its core values as, right? But that said, obviously, in a country where guns are everywhere,

I support guns, I support guns. I like guns. But I can also admit that we have a lot of issues's pissed off and hasn't figured out life can just go buy an AR and go, you know, deal with his problems in a ridiculous fashion and hurt innocent people in the process. Putting in the hours, getting the training. Yeah, exactly. It makes sense for a lot of things. I mean, we get a driver's license. You know, we spend hours driving a car and practicing with our parents and things like that why doesn't apply to snakes or guns or or lots of common sense things

you know that um would would just make people well there's a lot of stuff like that where and it you can tell what your background is chuck because i have a similar one i would assume um in that there are a lot of people and it i'm probably super biased because i go back to education a lot but um there are a lot of people that really want rights and don't understand their responsibilities right and the two go hand in hand and it for for anything and whatever it may be um and it i i think that comes down to education like it it doesn't matter if you know i work in a really weird field outside of reptiles and so i probably have a lot of insight into what chuck was talking about with the the gun topic but um i also can point you to 50 classes that are happening next month if you want to go yeah you know i mean other than but other than you DMing me to come to my reptile shop and learn how to handle a big lizard, like you're not going to go to an AZA accredited facility and learn that.

You're not like there. We haven't developed the structure of other controversial industries to defend ourselves from folks who criticize us. A hundred percent. Perfectly said. But a great compromise would be, would be that kind of system rather than saying, okay, we're going to ban everything. We're going to require you to get ours. You figure it out from there. Yeah. Take responsibility. Yeah. We develop a system that allows for that and, and different, you know,

folks like you that have those big animals and, you know, maybe can, can do that for a fee or something, you know, that, that becomes a thing. Yeah. And any, any hobby, if you're into extreme sports, if you're into whatever, if you're into something with a level of danger, because you're an adrenaline kind of person, of those have training yeah and classes and and it's it's a part of the culture like no but nobody base jumps the first time you've been in skydiving for years well and that because because the people who are into that won't even talk to you yeah yeah like you're not invited dude you you can't come like if you're talking about firearms or you're talking about combat sports or any multitude of weird hobbies i have outside of reptiles like new people are new you do new guy stuff that's simple and basic and we'll show

you what's going on you express to us us your skillset, your responsibility level. And then the group will determine kind of where you fall out because if you're young, dumb and want to try it, you're dangerous to everybody else. So like, let's just chill out. You know, I feel like that Kyle Rittenhouse kid who shot the protesters, if he would have joined the Marine Corps, he would have never, ever, ever, ever been at a protest with a firearm using it on American citizens. Like ever, ever. It wouldn't happen. You know, it. it doesn't matter the political facet that you look at in, in cases of extreme behavior or reckless behavior or,

or things that most folks don't agree with the people that you seek conducting themselves in that way, almost across the board did not come from a, a schoolhouse or a training facility. Or, you know, when you see like stupid things on ESPN where people get into a fight in the stands or whatever, like the guy didn't walk out of a boxing gym and go punch somebody at a Red Sox game.

Like that's just some idiot that's not trained. You know, the people who are to take their alligator to PetSmart in Florida, they don't work for RPI. They haven't gone to an AZA class. They don't, you know, there's a level of responsibility that comes with education and training in anything. Our weird thing just happens to be big pythons, big lizards, venomous snakes, whatever. Whereas it could be a drag race car or, you know, you got to wear a harness and a helmet and blah, blah, blah. Or otherwise they won't let you race. And there's a bunch of people standing there like, no, idiot, we don't do that here. You know, and then you're the weird one for being irresponsible yep

and in her pediculture we i don't know how a hobby that's been around in mainstream america since the 70s hasn't matured enough but like we we haven't matured to the point where all of us are standing around going, no, we, we don't do that. Don't, don't do that. Yeah. You know, and that, that peer pressure of trained and educated groups of people, that's the only thing that's ever going to drive that because if you ban it, it's just going to be people who were already willing to break the rules because all the responsible people are going to follow the rules, which means they're out of it. Yeah. And then I think too, if we're, if we're more accommodating or instead of like chasing them away because they want a big snake or something, we, we kind of say, Hey, you know, let's think, let's, let's talk about this or bring them under your wing and kind of educate them.

That kind of thing, you know, don't shun somebody cause they make a stupid choice. Because I think we've all been there and made those stupid choices. And that's how you learn, you know. That's why I learned I didn't want to berm because I kept a berm. You know, it's like. Well, so we're all podcast nerd type people. Chameleon Academy. The people who are involved in that. Yeah. So they, when you go to their Facebook group,

there is a structure in place for people who buy chameleon kits at big box stores. Yeah. Cause they suck. Everybody buys them. Everybody who buys them is brand new. Those kits suck. They don't know it. They go to a Facebook group. And instead of getting flamed about how big of a moron you are, there's a structure of like, replace this light bulb with that thing and buy this. And then you stick this plant right here. And I mean, you can literally read it. And then when you're done, your crappy chameleon kit will keep your veil of life. Yeah. It's amazing.

Yeah. Yeah. kit will keep your veil alive yeah it's amazing yeah yeah and i don't know why there isn't why don't we have that in the dart frog group and the retic group and uh you know and yeah because it it clearly isn't that difficult they did it for chameleons which are the thing everybody has killed since they were kids because they're incredibly delicate you know and they were like no we we know what's going to happen we we can't defeat big box marketing so we're going to gorilla campaign it and when you come to talk to us on social media we got you yeah yeah you're good to go you need to make this work. Yeah. To be. And they're killing it. Yeah. Seventh generation envelope chameleons, Parsons, Mellors, all the coolest things.

The chameleon hobby is crushing it. And I think the basis of that is their acceptance of new people and getting them going. Yeah. Yeah. And those are the people who are going to build on the things that we're discovering now and discover the new things, you know, if we, if we chase them away before they have a chance. And I mean, you hear that all the time of, Oh, I don't, I don't like this or that group because they're exclusionary or they think

they're really cool and you know, they don't accept new people or they or they shunned me or made fun of me or whatever so yeah it's tricky well um we sure appreciate you coming on bill it's been a really good conversation and and some really we kind of rambled but it was awesome no it yeah, that's the way it goes, I guess. But yeah, very good points and very important discussion. Hopefully, you know, the listener got some good ideas or thoughts out of this, and hopefully, you know, we can improve what we're doing and make things better for all of us, right?

Yeah. I've been enjoying Lizard Brain the the savannah monitor episode was really cool that was fun i listened to chuck's episode and um yeah i mean i i appreciate that i don't remember names very well but most of the stuff you guys said about me was nice so i appreciate it appreciate that but we just say all the horrible stuff behind your back. Yeah, that was all the bad stuff I just saved and told. Before you went on air. Yeah, after he cut it off, I was like, and that Jewelender, oh, my gosh.

Yeah. Very well-deserved, I'm sure, on my part. But, yeah. Most of it was centered around you not inviting him to hurt, but, you know. That's correct. That's correct. Fair. Which is fine now because I just invite myself.

There you go. True. Hey, no, I will have, you know, I invited him to her and he left me high and dry. He didn't come, you know, he's like, sure, sure. And then it came time and he ditched me. So yeah, I was, I was, I'm like, I just didn't want to be heard again. That is not how I recall that happening. I gave ample notice that I was not able to attend.

It's true. I am sorry. My daughters were sad that they didn't get to hang out with your daughters. Yes. I acknowledge the fact that it was an inconvenient family train wreck that was my fault. But to be fair, I was upfront about it. It's all good. It's all good.

I'm just giving you a hard time. But so yeah, Lizard Brain Radio, check it out if you haven't heard it. It's a great podcast. I really enjoy listening to that. I have a bit of a lizard brain for sure. I was actually surprised you picked a snake topic. So I guess you must get it all out on the lizard brain radio. And obviously you're not just a lizard-centric person.

You deal with a lot of snakes as well. But having the collection diversity like that, and especially with big constrictors, like a lot of people worry about venomous and they worry about tegus and politics coming out of Florida. But the genesis of that was berms. It was big constrictors. It's way easier to scare people with big snakes than to have to explain yourself what a tegu even is when your mom is calling it a tiju or whatever. I do this for a living and my mom doesn't know what a Tegu is. She knows what a giant snake is, you know?

So it's, it's much more pertinent in the public eye, I suppose. Yeah, for sure. Well, where, where can people find your podcast and where can they find you? Oh man, good stuff. Lizard Brain Radio is pretty much anywhere podcasts are. It's part of the Herpeticulture Network, which has been a blast. Yeah, they're good guys. Facebook, Instagram, all that good stuff.

The reptile education part is called Coal Black Exotics, and that's on Facebook, Instagram, any social media, Twitter, TikTok. All of the fun social media for younger people with TikTok and all that jazz, my kids helped me with. So it actually doesn't suck because I wouldn't know how to do those. Yeah. I need the younger generation to do those things. Yeah. Yeah. They, they tell me which song you're supposed to put in all that stuff. And how fast. But yeah, man, I, yeah, no, I, I post stuff there all the time. We do shows all the time. Most of our YouTube stuff is either episodes of lizard brain because I do them live. And then all the other videos are somehow educational in nature.

There's a whole set on the YouTube channel that we did during COVID. Uh, we did short lessons that some science teachers were using, but I made them public so other people could use them. That's awesome. Um, yeah, there's a handful of different things on there that are,

it's all like family friendly, that kind of thing. Um, and it's all, all of that stuff is education based. Um, the Instagram is Instagram. So it's a bunch of fun pictures of spiders and lizards and snakes but um there's more information on the facebook yeah yeah it's uh it's very picture heavy um no on the facebook side it there's usually like a fun fact type of thing. We answer tons and tons of messages.

The big thing for Teresa and a little bit myself, but much more so her, is enclosure building and things like that. We help a lot of people with that kind of stuff. So, yeah, man, it's kind of a one-stop shop for answering questions. Very cool. Very cool. Very cool. Well, check him out if you haven't already. I'm sure most people probably know who you are and what you do. Yeah.

Yeah, great having you on, and we'll definitely have you back again, I'm sure. You've got a lot of good ideas for topics. We think the world of Bill, for sure. And I wanted to let you guys know that there's already a second argument brewing or fight brewing. Dr. Loafman took the Casey Cannon side in the Invisible Ark argument in a chat group recently that I'm a part of. So maybe part two on the Invisible Ark. Let's suss this out. Yeah, that'd be good.

Cool. All right. Well, thanks Bill. And, uh, thanks everybody for tuning in, uh,

check out Morelia Python radio network and all their, uh, social medias. Um, good stuff going all around. Uh, thanks for listening and we'll catch you again next week for another episode of reptile fight club.

Happy birthday to me. Happy birthday to me. Happy birthday to Chuck, the co-host of fight club. Thank you. Outro Music