Reptile Fight Club - Marketing Reptiles w/Summer Grace Mitchell

Episode Date: October 23, 2021

In this episode, Justin and Chuck are joined by Summer Grace Mitchell the importance of marketing in the reptile world. Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to the MGR Network. All right, welcome to another edition of Reptile Fight Club. With me as always is Chuck Follin, my faithful co-host. What's up, Reptile friend? Or maybe he's the host and I'm the co-host. No, you're the host. I'm always co-host. How you been, man? Good, good. Just, I've been really busy. Work's been really busy. I just picked up some Felsumo Barbonica from John Woodward. So that's super cool. I set them up a couple days ago and I just bought another cage. So I'm already scheming of what I want to put in there. Um, it's, it's, I'm, I'm trying to pump my brakes a little. I, I kind of want to get some, uh, or not, uh, some felsum or not. Uh, so, um, yeah, I've got,

uh, every, every gecko species now that I keep, I have eggs in the incubator for, so I was kind of like, yes, that's a, that's a good, you know, that's a good you know that's a good yeah a good little sign uh enjoying that and yeah um started just i've i've kind of dropped the tracy i tracy a together uh and i'm just kind of letting them do their thing and we're expecting a uh a huge uh low pressure system to come through this weekend so we'll see we'll see if uh that that starts it off but uh yeah man just just you know grinding away here how about you how was the trip i guess it's that time of year again right starting to pair stuff up i better get my act together but yeah yeah things are good i actually did throw my uh blackheaded pythons together so hopefully we'll

get some westerns get another shot at those i'm I've struck out a couple of times, so this has got to be the year or else I'm going to be very disappointed. But yeah, things are good. Had a nice herp trip down to Arizona with the MP crew. So went with Owen and Rob and Keith McPeak and Tom, Rob's friend that works at Denver Zoo. Yeah, I caught that. I caught the McPeak episode there. That was good. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was a at Denver Zoo. Yeah, I caught the MIGPG episode there. That was good. Oh, yeah.

It was good. It was a lot of fun. Yeah, we had a great time. Saw some really cool stuff. Well, we'll have to get into that a little more. Yeah, we'll chat about that. But let's not dwell. Yeah, for sure.

We have a guest tonight. We've got a very special guest. Yeah, we've got a good one for you today. Summer Grace Mitchell. Thank you for being on here and welcome to the podcast. Yeah. Thank you for joining me. Very excited. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited. Well, you're right too. Yeah. Yeah. That works. We're all joined. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I've got to say, I've got two daughters. One's named Summer and one's named Grace. Oh, well, I have to say you picked Grace.

You've got a good name, putting both the girls together. Those are my youngest two daughters, but yeah, fun stuff. So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you fit in in herpetoculture? Yeah. So my name is Summer. I have been in reptiles since I was a child and I kind of have a small social media presence for my own animals. I mostly keep Moralia and semi arboreal stuff like that. Pythons mostly. And yeah, so if you want to check me out there, I go by girl with scales. I came up with that when I was 11. So I'm still a girl. Um, and, uh, yeah. And then as my, my day job, I am a, uh, videographer, editor, sales person, social media manager for, uh, Canova formerly known as Jacob of reptiles. So, okay. So, so that's the business name or why did he change it to Canova? Well, he changed it actually just very recently. Yeah, I hadn't heard that.

Yeah, essentially just because his name is hard to say, hard to spell, people always having difficulties with that. has a whole staff and a facility so he wanted to just legitimize the business as an entity rather than kind of him being the you know everything being everybody expecting that they're always going to be talking to justin when that's not always the case so interesting yeah yeah i guess if you're in the ballpark by ball oh say it right yeah Yeah. The ball python world. You're definitely going to know Justin Kobilka's name. So I'm surprised that, you know, that notoriety is, uh, carries a lot of weight. So he's done some amazing things. Well, maybe you've done some amazing things for him. I was going to say, it sounds like you're a woman who wears many hats in that.

Yeah. Well, it's, it's a pretty, um, successful company and I've really only worked there for in this current position since January. I've worked there for about since two years ago is when I first kind of got connected with him. I used to clean snakes. But yeah, it's really only four people. So it's a pretty small business. So everybody, most people kind of do multiple things, you know, keep it all going. Yeah.

Nice. Cool. Okay. Well, um, I guess that's, uh, kind of leads us into our topic a bit. So today we're going to talk about, um, this was kind of a topic that was, uh, Casey Cannon mentioned, and he said, you'd be great to, to, uh, have a great insight in this topic. And, um, that's in regards to marketing and, and if, you know, uh, as a reptile business, if it's important to market, or if you just kind of let the animals sell themselves kind of thing, or, you know, the, the importance of marketing in the, in the reptile business world, I guess. So, uh, we, since, uh, you're, you're coming in, we'll, we'll pick one of, or we'll flip the coin and figure out who gets to debate you today. And, uh, and then we'll flip the coin to again,

to see who, um, see which side you get, I guess. All right, Mr. Chuck, are you feeling lucky today? No, here's what's going to happen. You're going to flip the coin and you're going to call it in the air. Oh, I'm going to call it this time. Yeah, you're going to call it this time. And if you win or you lose, we'll see. This will be your luck, not my luck. I'm switching the tables here. Okay, well, I'm not the luckiest guy either.

Well, if I lose consistently doing this method, then it is completely and 100% me. And there can be no doubt, but we've got to try and switch this. I got to figure this out. Well, that's weird that I'm flipping my own coin, but all right, here we go. Listen, I got a coin. Yeah. I'll call heads here. Um, and it's heads. So, yep. That, uh, I guess that goes along with the whole, whole deal. So i'm gonna i'm gonna go

ahead and uh jump in the debate here so are you wow all right sure okay you'd like to moderate yeah sure all right and then summer do you want to call it or do you want me to call it uh in regards to who gets the topic okay so how does it does it, how does I'm bad at coin flips? So what do you mean? Yeah. If not as bad as me, if you win the coin toss, you get to pick which side you defend. Okay. And if you lose, then I get to pick which side I defend.

So I'll let you can call it. Okay. Here we go. Flipping my own coin again. All right. I'll go with heads again. And it's heads. That's a double-headed man i just can't can't lose here i've shown you plenty of times it's the same coin there's the tails there's the heads we're

we're all legitimately quick that was pretty quick i didn't see the whole thing all right well i'm a i'm a proponent of low energy let the animals sell themselves like i just want to produce good animals that i don't have to do a lot of work to sell so maybe so you're on the on the the the the less marketing side or the the non-necessity to market that's right okay so i i feel like you know if you produce nice animals they're kind of going to speak for themselves so i i i kind of feel that way as well but but i'm supposed to moderate yeah come on you can't take sides all right all right all right i'm i'm mills lane now okay you got to be fair and impartial. Yeah. All right. Okay. So. Yeah, go ahead.

Which side are you? Which, who's going, you won the coin toss, Justin. So you, so whoever wins the coin toss decides which side they want to take and they get to decide whether they want to start or they want the other person to start. So what is it, Julian? I'm going to let Summer go first. That's good of you beating us two coin tosses in a row. Thank you for being the gentleman there. All right. Well, let me, let me get out my notes. Oh, this girl came prepared. I like it. So my first point is that first of all I think, of course, everybody should be striving to produce quality animals.

I think that kind of goes without saying. Hopefully, anybody who is a breeder who loves reptiles, that is their goal. Yeah. But I think first and foremost, putting effort into your marketing and your presence and promoting your business helps you to stand apart from other people. Because, you know, you're not the only snake guy on the block. And if everybody hopefully is focusing on producing quality animals, then having a certain brand or vibe or look or feel can help you stand apart from the guy next to you at the reptile expo that has the same snakes on his table. Okay. I get that. And I guess that's maybe why I moved into things that not a lot of people work with. So, you know, the Antaresia, there's not very many Antaresia specialists at these reptile

shows. So I figure, you know, that's something I actually kind of stopped breeding a lot of carpets because there was a ton being imported. And there were a lot of breeders that had a lot of time to sell their animals where I'm, you know, I've got a full time job in a big family. So I spend a lot of time doing other things besides reptiles. So I guess the effort and the time that I have allotted kind of goes more towards taking care of the animals and, you know, that kind of thing. So I don't have a ton of time to, to market. So I figured I would find a niche or a niche, however you want to say it, a nipper, I'm sorry, which, but, uh, we, uh, um, so, you know, that's nipper and we'll just call it a nipper instead of a niche.

Yeah, I like that. That's good. Yeah, that's awesome. Oh, I'm sorry. I couldn't resist. No, that's a very worthy comment. But so, you know, if I have something that people don't generally have, then it takes the pressure off of marketing. You know, I think people can see that the animals are good

quality and when they purchase from me, they can get good customer support and things like that. But I don't spend a lot of time marketing. Now, probably something I might increase a little bit, and I'm actually trying to get my youngest daughter to help me market. She helped me take pictures the other day and stuff like that. So that was kind of fun. So I guess if I had somebody to help me, it might be a little better, but for now I, I just kind of chose to find a niche that a nipper that not very many people have and, uh, and then kind of let the animals speak for themselves or produce things that people want that aren't really available.

And I mean, I think that that makes perfect sense. And if you are on, you know, like I said, the number one priority should be the animals. So if you are doing this as like more of a side thing or it's, you know, I don't know. Some people don't like the word hobby. But if it is just like a hobby or, you know, your interest that you do do during the day you're at a university or doing something with science or whatever it is that you're doing, yeah, then I mean, you need to be focusing on the animals. But what I would say to that point is that when you do pick that nipper species, like you're saying, not a lot of people work with the Antirrhesia. I went to Tinley recently and I saw so few.

And the one that I did see, I was like so enthralled by it because I'd never seen it and seen one in person before. What was it? It was an ant hill. Oh, yeah. Yeah. There is, by increasing your marketing and promoting your business and thereby the animals that you're producing, you're also promoting that passion you have for that species that is perhaps underappreciated, underrepresented in the hobby. And if it's a species that you think more people should be interested in or take notice

of, then by doing marketing, branding, pushing yourself a little bit, you're just bringing attention to it and helping to preserve it, make it more popular, get people on the same bandwagon as you, all that good stuff. So, I mean, would you say though, Justin, that you're, you know, you do have a website and, and that website, it does pretty much have the adventures and, you know, productions of Justin Julander on it, right? True. Is that kind of a way? I mean, you know, I guess, you know, it's kind of where you draw the line of marketing, right? Hey, who's telling you on here?

What's going on here? Just asking the questions. No, I mean, that's a, that's a good point. I mean, it's, it's hard, I guess, not to market if, if we're kind of, you know, considering anything you, you know, any, any promotion or, or like, I mean, at a reptile show, I don't just sit there with my arms full that I try to teach people and tell them how exciting and cool and trainees are because they're, you know, Python in a small package kind of thing, you know, you don't have to clean up after a retake. So, um, you know, that's, that's definitely true. And I, and I agree that, you know, I kind of do some, um, what's the, the, you know, not really active, maybe some passive marketing, I guess, or, you know, writing books, people are going to say, Oh, this guy wrote a book on Antaresia. So maybe he knows something about anteresia so you know maybe help uh well i think it's exploit mark it's like exploit marketing you you kind of document your exploits and or you or you compile things and and create data i mean you're yeah you know um

yep i guess i guess i'm maybe, mentally separating like true, you know, marketing, getting out there, you know, uh, putting up ads or making things graphically interesting or, you know, having a, a cool, well, you know, cool design or like a logo or things like that, you know, that, and I, and I, I agree. I do some of that stuff and, uh, and I, I do think it helps for sure. But, um, I guess the, the other maybe side of that is, um, you know, sometimes you, you know, people get this flashy name or reputation or something, but you know, it's same stuff. You might, you might find better quality from somebody else and you wonder, are they, are to be a business? Are they doing this to really promote the animals? So I think to not cross that line, maybe I've shied away a little bit from marketing in that respect. But obviously, do do some level of marketing. Well, I think it's this industry, hobby, community, whatever you want to call the reptile world is interesting to me because I think a lot of people feel that way.

I think they feel it's kind of like bands not like in the old days, not wanting their songs to be like used in movies or something because they're like, oh, it's I'm selling out or whatever. Commercial. Yeah. whatever. Commercial. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But, but I think, you know, it is such a group of people who are, tend to be more introverted, tend to be a little strange. I mean, we all, we relate to these creatures for a reason. You know what I mean?

We all kind of, something about them speaks to us because they're misunderstood. A lot of people have, you know, echo that sentiment. Like I like that, you know, I'm appreciating this creature that nobody else understands. And it's like, it feels like me or whatever. So I think there's an element to it that people feel like it's like selling out. Like, you know, all I care about is the animals and none of this other stuff matters. This is all extra. And then as an extension of that, they start to get into their head that because they feel that way, that means that anybody who does care about that other stuff doesn't care about the animals and that's all they care about. And I think that's a bit of a kind of just, you know,

just an unfounded misconception. you know what i mean like you're not necessarily you obviously i'm speaking generally but i think people are inferring motivation where they really have no insight you know what i mean like i've heard people like for instance like i'll use um i don't know if you're familiar garrett hardell like reach out reptiles he does the super dwarfs he puts a lot of effort into his shipping boxes, right? So he doesn't use the normal shipping boxes that everybody else uses. He went and found a box company. He got all the specs so that they have like all the same like crush physics things going on.

So it's all safe. But he got his branding on it. He does special little tins. Like it's like a but he got his branding on it he does special little tins like it's like a whole experience when you open up the box and like yes is that kind of unnecessary sure it's a box you're sending the snake it's going to get there whether it's a fancy box with fancy crumpled stuff in it or a regular box with paper in it you know what i mean but yeah but by adding that extra element i think it's just adding to the customer experience and making people feel like not only are you a good customer service representative in the fact that you are communicating with them. Like you were saying, if somebody comes up to you at a show and talks to you, they're going to have a good interaction, hopefully.

You're going to be nice to them, they're going to have a good interaction. Hopefully you're going to be nice to them. You're going to educate them. So going beyond that, it's not just customer service, it's customer experience and making people feel like they are a part of something, a part of a brand. In the same way that when you buy an iPhone, you know, people do unboxing videos of iPhones, even though it's just a metal phone or whatever. I don't even know what they're made of. But, you know, people like that experience of getting something and feeling like, oh, this is my insert name of animal breeder here, animal, not just something that could have gotten from anybody else. Sure. Now, I guess I would see how that would be a really good business model. I guess that where I'm maybe taking issue with that line of thought is, is that it's an animal, you know, you're not trying to get somebody to

buy like an overpriced phone or things like that. You're, you're, I don't feel like people should be talked into getting an animal because of the, the experience, you know, like, oh, I'm going to, I want to buy something. So I'm going to go to the person with the flashiest display or, you know, the, the best box or things like that. You know, I, I guess I'm, I'm more of the side of like talking people out of an animal unless they're really into it. And, you know, it's, it's hard because I think the reptile, reptile industry as a whole kind of convinces everybody that they need to be a breeder and they need to make money from selling their reptiles and things like that, you know. And that's one of the reasons I kind of kept it as a hobby business. So I wouldn't need to make money from reptiles to feed my family.

I don't care if I sell snakes, you know, as long as they're not running me out of house and home. And, you know, sometimes that's the motivation to put up ads is when I starting to run out of room or something. But at the same time, you know, I understand that, you know, some people do that as a business, and I guess I can see people want to have the best brand or a good experience with their brand. And I think as long as that goes along with quality animals, I don't have too much issue with it. But I think there's kind of a fine line between peddling animals and doing it responsibly. So that's one kind of other side of the coin issue that I, well, I think what's, I totally agree with you there, but I think what's the thing to kind of encapsulate that is first, like I said, in the beginning, the animal should always

come first. And I think if you don't have quality animals, the whole facade falls away really quickly. You know what I mean? Because as soon as, you know, as soon as you get a bunch of people saying, oh, my animal was sick or wasn't what I purchased or had might, you know what I mean? As soon as all that stuff starts getting in, it doesn't, I don't think it matters how, I don't think the package, so to speak of not just the actual package, but the whole, whatever are, can ever substitute for the animals. So I think that, you know, you may get away with it for a little bit, but ultimately, that's going to all not sustain itself if your animals don't live up to what you're promising

people. And I also think that most people that I see who have a more flashy presentation, or, you know, they put more money and care and time and energy into that sort of thing, they're not selling cheap animals that anybody's going to be able to afford or be interested in. Most people that I think kind of get the – I don't know. The animals aren't throwaway, but people kind of see them as throwaway. You know what I mean? Like people who are getting, that's cheaper animals and the people that are doing the high end marketing kind of stuff usually aren't even producing those kinds of animals. Or if they are, they're wholesaling them or something. You know what I mean? Like they're not, that's not their focus or their main source of business.

Yeah. I do think there are a couple of exceptions to that. And unfortunately, you know, they, they do persist far longer than they should. I mean, there's some that are still, you know, going on, even though how many people have had negative experiences. And I think it's because they have access to more, less, less available animals. If people want an animal, they're often going to take a risk if it's a rare or hard to acquire animal they'll they'll maybe do a deal with the devil and buy something from you know an importer that has a reputation i think we i think we see people who who who stay the the person because they can get those animals and whether they do it very well

or don't do it very well they get those animals so they're always that that person you know what i mean but they're always marked you know what i mean if you don't do it well you're always marked by that it's just that you know if you're able to get animals in that nobody else gets in because you're importing and you're that person then that's who people will ultimately go to you know buyer beware but i would say once you're marked you you know it's and you know i i mean i guess everybody gets you know new people get hoodwinked that's just the way that's just the way it is. Right. You don't know. And then you usually buy and then you do your research and then you're like, Oh crap. Right. Well, I mean, I mean, Hank Malt did, uh, did persist for quite a while because he was, you know, getting things illegally

and had things that nobody else could get. Right. Yeah. Sorry. You were going to say something. I was just going to say, that's my job. I job i agree and i think i think that's more prevalent in the importation side of things where it's animals that aren't readily bred in captivity and so like you're saying there's just not any it's like if you want that animal it's this one or nothing you know what i mean yeah but but to that same point i see a lot of those types of animals and maybe not necessarily super rare one rare ones but like imports and stuff like that that are like about you know they're gonna die in 48 hours is kind of coming from people who put zero effort into anything they're doing clearly and somehow they still sell but it's because they're cheap and

people don't know any better and they just look at the price tag and they say, okay, this is, you know, this is the cheapest one here. So I'm going to get that. It's a great deal. And then, you know, 10 minutes later, it's dead. But I think if, if you're spending enough money to like, for instance, we just did a total rebrand for the business that I work for. And we went from Jacob Elkrupt House to Canova. And it wasn't cheap. You know what I mean? Like when you do it with a professional company and things like that, I think the percentage of overlap between like sketchy people and people who put that much effort into something is I'm sure it's there,

but I think it's slim. You know what I mean? Like you might get a couple of creeps that are just super creeps, but I think most creeps are putting in as little effort as possible. That's true. Low energy creeps. Yeah. And that's the thing. I mean, I guess I look at kind of that. I'm, you know, I'm the guy who has all the rare stuff. You know, I'm the guy who, the only guy who can get stuff out of this place or that place. You know, you have to come to me kind of thing. I guess I see that as somewhat as marketing. And then a lot of times they'll have flowery descriptions for their animals, you know, and,

and, and I guess I kind of count that in the marketing category. So there, there are some forms of slimy marketing that really, you know, turn me off for sure. That's their brand is that they have the whole, you know, they have the stuff nobody else has. Yeah. And, and I mean, I guess that's okay if they're doing it responsibly and not, you know, selling people sick animals and things like that. So, you know, yeah, that's, um, just something to be cautious about, you know, not all glittery and flowery descriptions are, are actual or true. No, no, no, for sure. Yeah. And that's the thing. I mean, that's, that's always the, I guess like it's tough because there is that side of it. You know what I mean? Like anybody can make a claim. Anybody can say, I have the best blank in the

world. You know what I mean? But you have to be able to back up what you're saying. And so I think as long as you're backing up what you're saying, what you're presenting, then I don't see the issue. And I think people, because you can say anything you want, I think people tend to assume that it's all just BS. You know what I mean? Like some people see any kind of marketing as like total just used car salesman type stuff, you know. But I don't think it always is. And I think assuming that it is without, you know, doing your due diligence and looking, but I think that's a lesson too, that anybody should be looking into everything. Like, cause like you're saying,

you know, there's two sides to everything and somebody may have the best animals in the world. You just got to look for them. You know what I mean? And like, you know, there's an element of, of validity to that too. So. Yeah, that that's i guess that's another thing uh you know with with the over or or that you know a large amount of of marketing around selling animals is um i i always kind of wonder well how much extra am i paying for all this glitz and glamour you know am i paying through you know is it going to be more expensive because I'm paying for a special, you know, custom shipping box and, you know, that's been branded with their logo and things like that. So, um, I, I'd almost rather find somebody who's kind of quietly doing it in their

basement. That's producing quality animals. Then I meet somebody who's, you know, that I maybe align more with, I guess. That's something I worry about is if I'm paying extra for all that marketing. Well, I think yes and no. I know from my experience with where I work that the snakes cost what they cost. You know what I i mean and the reason that we can afford to do that kind of thing you know more extensive promotional stuff like making posters and selling merch and having all that stuff available is because the animals sell really well and they're high quality animals so they sell at a high price. Like that came, that comes first. You know what I mean? Like, and I think that generally will be the case because if somebody has a lot of money to invest in a bunch of marketing, but again, they're not producing the quality animals.

It's kind of like a cardboard, like cut out. You know what I mean? Like there's this facade of like, Oh, I'm this great business. But then then it's like you're just me in my bedroom with like one rack of snakes and like i just i just am good at graphics so i made myself a cool logo and like you know what i mean like yeah you can that would be me if well go for it a couple people's eyes and you know get a nice christmas present um but no so i think i guess that all i can speak for is is my experience but sure sure you know the the animals and the success of the business came first and all and but but i do think that that even if you don't have a bunch of money to spend on like insane marketing stuff, I think there's the other point, which is just having a professional

presentation, which I'm sure like you do, Justin, like you're a nice clean cut guy. You know what I mean? Like I'm sure your booth and stuff is like not dirty. You know what I mean? Like I'm sure you clean off your acrylic or whatever, but like having a good presentation, taking care in the way that you, um, speak to people and the way that you present your animals, all of that stuff, I think is step one. Like, you know what I mean? Like every single person who breeds reptiles or imports reptiles or sells reptiles should be doing that at a bare minimum. Because if you can't put the effort into, with whatever money you have or whatever money you don't have,

to make whatever you're doing presented as professionally as possible, then I don't believe that you are putting any effort into the animals that you have. You know what I mean? Like if you can't Windex an acrylic at a reptile show, then are you cleaning your cages like are your snakes like sitting in poop constantly you know what i mean like yeah well i feel like having that

level of polish whether it's at a high level or a small level it allows people to trust that you put that same level of care and attention to detail into your animals. So, and I mean, I'm sure you're not arguing for like people being like gross, but I just think that there's like, you know, there's an element of marketing that everybody should be doing, which is that they should be presenting themselves well. And the animals.

Well, Oh, I fully agree. Yeah. It's really frustrating to see, you know, gross displays, like you said.

Right. Yeah. And on the internet too i mean like not everybody has to be a like graphic designer or like world renowned writer or something but like write a full sentence when you're talking to people you know what i mean like yeah you know what i mean don't be spelled and punctuated correctly yeah like if if you're taking yourself seriously if you're not then by all means don't yeah but if you if you're taking yourself seriously and you want other people to take you seriously then you need to put that effort in to present yourself seriously yeah that's uh that's i guess that basic level of maybe even passive marketing that, you know, I think we all agree that is definitely necessary and important. You want to, you know, speak, you know, I guess, coherently and, you know, try to present yourself well. So people see that you, what you're doing and things like that. So I agree fully. Um, so I, uh, one other, um, potential, I guess, negative side of, of high levels of marketing could be this kind of more trend towards getting animals because they're popular for like, you know, social media likes

and things like that, you know, buying an expensive snake because, you know, Oh, I'm the only guy on the block with this and it costs me 10 grand or whatever, you know, we've kind of had this discussion on the podcast before, but, um, you know, that's, that's maybe another side of it where you're selling more of an image than, you know, and this kind that's maybe another side of it where you're selling more of an image than, you know, and this kind of goes back to one of my earlier thoughts of, you know, we, we shouldn't be selling images. We should be selling, you know, reptiles because they're cool to people who appreciate them because they're cool. You know? Right. Um, so yeah, go ahead. No, no, I, I know what you're, I know what you're getting at and i i agree and i think that there is a there is a level of that that i think is honestly just social media in general and i

think in any any interest in the world you're gonna find that what i mean and it's not always gonna be a bolins python or whatever it's to be whatever it is in that specific interest group, that that is the thing to have that that makes you seem successful or cool or rich or whatever. But I also think that that gets a little exaggerated at times, because while I there are people for sure, who do that. I'm can think of one in particular, but like I also, I mean, straight up, my boss has Bolins, he's got a pair and I'm 100% sure that people have said that and are still saying that about him, that he got them for social media. But the funny thing is he never posts them on social media. He did one video when he got them and every time they've ever been posted on social media since then i did it because i was like why are we never posting pictures of

these they're cool you know what i mean like they're awesome snakes but they are he he literally he's had him for two years and there's maybe four posts of them total including the very first video he did where he showed that he got them and then that was it like everything else is me and that's because i really i mean i love morelia i mean like i'm a yeah australian indonesian kind of kind of python person so i'm like super stoked on them and and he is too but i did that more than he did because i was like i wanted to show off the pythons i was like i get to work withollins Python. I'm taking a picture of it. I'm going to go look at it out in the sun and see the rainbow.

You know what I mean? Like, so there are for sure that is an element to it. But I think that the majority of people who keep, you know, who do this, the high level of marketing stuff. And it's hard because there's so many levels we could be talking about there's youtubers that are doing a lot of promotion on their youtube channels and for clickbait and things like that and then you know there's people who are trying to sell things like you said there's people who are trying to import there's there's different facets of this so we could be talking about different things and different approaches but i would say that if you're

a reptile breeder who is focusing on a specific species and you're promoting that species and really you work with high quality projects in that species and you have been successful so you have the money to have professional branding and professional packaging and professional merchandise and several tables at a reptile show and everything's big and pretty and clean and a nice facility, then those typically aren't the people who are buying a bunch of random species and keeping them because they're really focused. Like we have at my facility, I say my facility, I wish it was my, the facility I work at. Yeah.

It's a nice facility. There's like thousands of ball pythons. And then there's like five other snakes. You know what I mean? Like it's, and, and my boss loves all snakes. He started out doing,

not even doing ball pythons. He did colubrids. He had venomous, like he's done a bunch of stuff, but he found the ball pythons and he was like, well, if I'm going to do this as a business, then I need to like,

well, he got, he got interested in the genes. You know what I mean? But he's like, I need to focus on this. You know what I mean? Like, I don't need to be distracted with he's you know like kind of like jack of all trades master of none like yeah get rid of all the rest of it and

really focus on this one thing and so that's kind of what he's done so it wasn't even really until recently that he got he started getting the other species he's got file snakes which no one's ever even seen he's never which species does he have cape something oh cape file snakes so like not the water ones the yeah no they're cool though um and i've seen people use those on instagram like under purple lights and like make them look all pretty but we don't do that um and uh yeah, uh, yeah, he's got, he's got a retake that no one's ever seen. Um, so, so I think that, yeah, I, I just feel like there's a little bit of, um, hyperbolization that goes into some of it too. Like people start kind of nagging on people on, you know, it's definitely tough. Right. Because you, you know, uh, there's such a there,

so it's all intention. Right. And, And and what what's wrong with somebody who's successful and enjoys reptiles and has a YouTube presence getting a Bolin's Python or a pair or two pairs or whatever? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. But the ridicule comes when when they end up on, you know, oh, they're just oh, they're doing that just to show off because they're so expensive. But then there's also those people who legitimately get one so they can show it off. Yeah, for sure. Because social media is kind of an attention whorish, self-fulfilling you know thing in it for some people it you know some people need that attention and and i think it it is unfortunate definitely that that it's easy to paint with a broad brush for sure and i think there's also an element of this is kind of going on a tangent it's not really related to the topic but like we're all about tangents here there's an element of um i would say like pet tube in general i don't know if you guys are familiar but there that i feel like is a dangerous place not to not to offend anybody but because

it's kind of like you can like i have pet snakes you know i mean i don't none of my snakes are really big enough or old enough to breed right now. I've got like a dozen, I feel like a dozen snakes in my house. They're all pets really. There's only so much that I can say about them. You know what I mean? At a certain point, you have to keep getting more to have more to talk about. So it becomes this cycle of, I've got to get a new pet to have something new to talk about, which that's where I feel like you get into, especially like getting, you know, especially if people are successful and have enough money to spend, they get a bunch of, they get cool species that maybe are expensive because they're hard to take care of and nobody

can breed them. You know what I mean? Like, right, right, right. And they get, they can't take care of it well, or, you know, people kind of get a little bit, uh, salty because it's like a species that people really want to work with, but most people can't afford. And then this person who really doesn't know what they're doing gets it. You know what I mean? There's so many layers to it, but there's for sure people who get into things for the wrong

reasons, who, like Justin was saying, who promote themselves disingenuously. And I think the thing we can't do is assume that everybody is that way. You know what I mean? Like we've got to look at, we've got to assume that most people are good and until proven otherwise, then, you know, then we can start, we can start saying, um, saying, you know, whatever we need to say to, to get that stopped. But so I actually have one point that I think I feel really strongly about, and I'm curious how you guys will find this take. So one of the biggest reasons that I think it is not just okay for somebody to be like this, but I think it is necessary for there to be businesses in the reptile world that

are heavily focused on their brand, their presentation, their marketing, their facilities, all of that stuff is the legitimization of the business, of the hobby, of the industry. Kind of like I was saying earlier, a lot of us are weirdos in one way or another. You're like a weird nerd or you're like a non mainstream person, like alternative lifestyle. You know what I mean? There's different ways to be weird, but most of us are weird in some way. Yeah, exactly. And that's great. But the problem is we hurt ourselves by being so accepting of our weirdness and so willing to be weird because we separate ourselves from the mainstream.

Okay. And again, some people, that's what some people want. They're like, F that. I don't want to be mainstream. I want to be, you know, I want to be off to the side doing my own thing. That's great. The problem is that we have people that are fighting against us to not let us have these animals and not let us work with the things that we love. You know, legislations are happening all over the

country all the time, you know, trying to ban things or make it harder to do what we're trying to do. And the less mainstream we are, the more weird kid in the corner we are, the harder it is for us to fight against that. The more that we have people who look legit, who look like, Hey, I'm a normal person making a good living. I have employees. If you shut me down, all these people are going to be out of a job. Like this is a legitimate business. I'm not some, some, you know, biker in my basement, you know, I'm not like a snake puppy mill. You know what I mean? The more that we have people like that who have that really professional presentation, who are appealing to a broader audience and are able to get their message out on YouTube,

on social media, on things like that, bring more people in, first of all, it makes the community bigger. It grows the reptile community. And then, like I said, it makes it more legit so that when people look at us, they're not thinking it's just a bunch of freaks. I mean, sorry, that sounds rude, but yeah, I mean, I think it's really important that we think about that and about how we can protect ourselves by doing more and by kind of looking outside of our own little box of what we feel, you know, we feel like, oh, well, we all understand each other. So that's all that matters. We need other people to understand us, too. Yeah, yeah.

That's definitely a hit that I can't duck. I mean, that's very important. I mean, that's, that's definitely a hit that I can't duck. I mean, that's, that's very important. And I mean, you got me. What can I say? So yeah, I completely agree that, you know, there does need to be some professionalism within the hobby. If we don't, then yeah, we're just like basement guys. And, and then, you know, we can get steamrolled by legislation yeah i think and i think you know just if i could butt in as the non you know non-martisan uh commentator here uh you know i i think that the cool thing about the hobby is is it does bring people in who maybe feel marginalized in society they feel like they're fringe and, and we have this great thing in reptiles that kind of brings people from all walks of life together. I've said this, you know, I can't, I can't even tell you how many times. And, um, I think that one of the, that, that, that for me, for me, what I think is everybody should be able to be who they want to be, you know, whether they, you know, have big gauge earrings and a lot of face piercings and tons of tattoos.

That doesn't bother me. That doesn't bother me. What we need to be able to do is bridge that gap with people who don't understand us and are able to. So those of us who maybe affiliate more mainstream, and I would consider myself somebody who can vacillate between almost any group of people. And you're wearing toucans on your shirt, macaws. Dude, we have Aloha Friday at my work. So every Friday we wear like a Hawaiian themed or like a crazy shirt. So that's why I have this shirt on. Every Friday you can catch me. No judgment. It's fun. It's super fun. My coworker has an awesome, like Hulk Hogan or no,

it's a macho man. It's a macho man, but not, it's awesome. I was like, you win. So, um, anyway, I just, you know, I think, I think it's important that, um, you know, those of us who can help bridge that gap and, you know, we're talking about, you know, stuff that's kind of crap because, you know, what's the normal, what's the average? Is that fair? Is that, you know, I mean, but perception is reality and how we're perceived. And so to your point, having legitimate businesses and those people who can bridge that gap so people don't – people can't just say, ah, it's a bunch of weird people who do weird stuff and I don't get that at all. That's not the case. That's not the case at all. So I think you're 100% on point there.

I just think it's – Yeah, and I think you're a hundred percent on, on, on point there. I just think it's, you know. Oh, yeah. And I completely agree with you. I mean, I think the great thing about the reptile world, like you said, is that so many people are connected by these animals who in other ways would be so, I would have never talked to them. You know what I mean? Like we wouldn't, we wouldn't hang out.

Yeah, exactly. And it's great. And everybody who, and anybody who is anybody should be allowed to be themselves and love the animals and we can we can connect in the way that we connect and if we don't connect in other ways that's great if you want to ride a harley go for it if i like you know would like to be a hermit and stay in my house 24 7 i'm staying here but like you're saying i think that we need to have the representation of the, you know, we need to have the representation of the weird nerd kid. We need to have the representation of

the burly guy with the tattoos. And we need to have the representation of the quote unquote, normal mainstream, you know, fits in with the crowd person, you know, we need to have it all so that anybody feels comfortable coming in. Because the reality is that even though we do become connected with everybody, it's kind of like lunch tables. You know what I mean? You gravitate towards people that outwardly you feel like are your people. And then once you start talking to them, you might realize they suck or you might realize, hey, those band geeks over there, they're the real cool ones. But we need to be reaching out and trying to bring more people in. And the way to do that is by having representation for things that people are used to. People are used to Apple and brands that are

professional and sleek and modern, and they have good good packaging and they have good fancy slogans and they have good you know all these all these different things and so that if that feels familiar to people they're gonna be like hey what's that about i didn't know like you know what i mean they're just i feel like it's just opening the doors for so much opportunity to make contact with people who would necessarily wouldn't necessarily know that this was a thing. Well, isn't it like kind of like packaging something that's foreign to people in a way that they understand it, right? People understand marketing, they understand what that is. And if you can market to people or you can advertise to people so that they understand or get something

that they don't participate or wouldn't normally participate in, in a way that is appealing to them, palatable to them, then you're potentially making some inroads, right? Is that kind of what you're kind of- Yeah, you said it way better than I. That was exactly what I was trying to say. Char, quit. You keep taking her side. Come on, man.

I'm not taking anyone's side. I agree that we definitely need that kind of representation. I, the, um, maybe the other side of that, the only kind of chance I have it may be getting a little swing in here is, uh, um, you know, as long as we're not, um, being too snooty, you know, I guess if you've, you've got this brand and you're like, well, I don't want that person representing my brand. You know, you don't want to be like whatever those clothes companies are that only make size, you know, zero through two or whatever. And they only cater to model types or whatever that, that bothers me.

And, and I think, you know, you might see that in the reptile hobby. I, uh, talking with some friends, they, they were, um, interacting. Well, they weren't interacting with this major YouTuber guy. Um, he was visiting with some of their friends and it was like, they didn't even exist. I mean, they were just there. They were in the same car with this guy and he didn't even like say, Hey guys, how are you? What's going on with you?

You know, he was just like completely focused on the two guys that he was interviewing and he didn't want to deal with anybody else you know getting getting that attitude of i'm i'm better than other people because i have this brand or i have this snake or i make these cool things that's that's where it kind of goes off the rails a little bit, I think. And I mean, I, my, my biggest, the thing that I hate most about, um, a lot of this branding stuff is the, you know, the clickbait, the, you know, the, I, I, and that's mainly with the YouTube stuff and it drives me nuts. Yeah. And you know, the algorithms and stuff kind of demand that to some extent my view on the the clickbait is um because i mean we every time we put out a video we sit there and think about what

is our title what is our thumbnail like how are we going to get people to watch this but my thing and luckily it's also my boss's thing too is that like we don't we we won't present the animals negatively you know what i mean like we'll say like this is the best snake i've ever seen you know what i mean like we'll hyperbolize but like we're never gonna be like my snake tried to kill me or something you know what i mean like we just that's just a line i got yeah it's just not necessary you know what i mean like it's just it doesn't to me it doesn't help now it is necessary if you're trying to make your money off youtube yeah and so that is where i i guess like on the one level i understand people doing it because like if youtube is your income

then in you and you've looked at your analytics or whatever and you see that like when you make those titles and thumbnails like that makes you twice as much money as a video that doesn't have it then like yeah you're gonna do that because that's how you're making all your money. Luckily, YouTube for us is a vehicle to just get our, just get the word out about what we're producing and point people to the snake. I mean, it's not, it's not how we make most of the money. So do you feel like though, do you feel like though that, that aren't those people who are using the scare tactic with a big snake doing the same thing of selling snakes to the average non-snake person? They're just doing it in the negative flip rather than the positive flip of, uh, you know, they're appealing to the different side. There's, they're doing the same thing in marketing to, to a group that wouldn't

see it, but they're, they're using an entirely different human mechanism to make that connection. Well, so, so I've, I mean, I've interacted with people. I wouldn't say I'm like friends with them. I know people who do that and they are kind of reasoning that they've, that I've heard them say is that they are basically like they're, because they get like those videos get so many views. It brings people to the channel. The videos are never actually that, you know what I mean?

It is just clickbait. Like the videos never actually have that really happening. Like it'll maybe be like sort of happening, but it's like not, you know what I mean mean it's always just overblown yeah or it's totally like like yeah it's just it's just a lie basically you know so their kind of reasoning is that then like once they watch the video they see how great the snakes are and they see how nice everything is and how they're not scary and they're not mean. And I understand that to a degree, but I guess my thinking is for every, so, so on YouTube, there's something called a click-through rate, which is basically how of the people that were shown your thumbnail, how many

people actually clicked. Right. So like, let's say that your click-through rate is 20%, which would be like a really good click-through rate. That still means 80% of people just saw the thumbnail and didn't actually watch the video. So to me, and I mean, again, if I don't know, I'm not trying to like crap on people or whatever,

but like, to me, I think about those 80% that don't watch the video and all they saw was your thumbnail portraying it negatively. And that's kind of why I won't step over that line. Even if all of our videos are positive, I'm thinking about, okay, well, what if there's a person who doesn't like snakes and they see that video and that makes them not like snakes even more. So they don't click on it. And then it just perpetuates, you know what I mean? Like that's kind of what I

think about. Cause, and, and not to negate, you know, the interest that those people do bring in, because they're, I'm sure that is valid. I'm sure, you know, if you have two and a half or three or whatever million followers on any kind of social media, that's a big impact. And I'm sure a lot of it is people who would not necessarily give two craps about reptiles. But I do also think about the people that just see it and scroll and don't click and at least bad impression. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's, uh uh you wonder if they were gonna click anyway even if it was a right positive spin yeah that's the thing they might but yeah they might not have gotten never the video might have never done good so they never showed up on their page to be clicked

on in the first place so yeah there's so many variables and i mean if they weren't gonna click on it and they saw what they saw what they thought they would see if they did click was a negative interaction. Perhaps you're just reinforcing what they thought all along anyway. So it may not even be a positive, you know what I mean? Like if they weren't going to click, it does, it doesn't, it doesn't do any, any justice. Like it's, it's not benign, right? Because you're, they're still seeing it and they're still saying like see yep just like i thought that that's what it is right and it's kind of like no it's not but you know it i guess my other thing is i'm starting to think about like because i i do have a small

youtube channel um of my own i just started it in the past year or whatever. And I just hit a thousand subscribers. So go. Nice. Congratulations. Yeah. Nothing compared to like the hundreds of thousands. But, but you know,

I, and you know, I'm always thinking about how can I get people to watch this and make it interesting, but it's like, I want people to want to watch it because they're intrigued by how cool the animals are. You know what I mean?

Like, I just think it's appealing to the wrong sensibilities and people, if you're appealing to like that sensibility of like, Ooh, I want to see somebody's arm get cut off. It's like, I don't know if that's why we want reptiles. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Find the people who think that something is cool because it is cool. Not because it's scary and gory and horror or whatever. Yeah. And if people are coming into reptiles because of scary, gory videos, they're probably not the best people to have. Yeah, because they want to watch like Molly and the Wolf get killed or something. Exactly.

Yeah. That's not cool. Maybe not who you want to be like really vying for. Yeah. Well, you've done some really cool videos lately. Your rough scale stuff is pretty sweet. Thank you. That's awesome.

I had a pair for a brief time, and I'd like to get another pair at some point. They're really cool pythons for sure. Oh, yeah. I love it. Yeah. Now that I've seen that anthill, I might be. Do you work with anthills? Oh, yeah.

Yeah, they're one of my favorites. Well, I might be hitting you up for one of those because that was super cool, and I think I can justify it since it's so small. Yeah. They're one of my favorites. I might be hitting you up for one of those. Cause that was super cool. And I think I can justify it since it's so small. Yeah. Justin produces nice pygmies. He's got some nice pygmies. Yeah. Yeah. They're fun. I mean, they're, they're a little pain to get started. This year's actually were great. Like they, they got started right away. So I was really happy about that. I guess to summarize, you know, I think marketing, you know, I think marketing, um,

you know, is it can, can kind of go, go into dangerous territory when we get people that are, you know, trying to maybe oversell animals, uh, you know, get, get more money out of them than they're worth, you know, that kind of thing. Um, if they're, you know, pushing, uh, things into territory of, of clickbait or negative, you know, uh, aspects of reptiles just to get people to watch their media, um, or, uh, you know, I, I think kind of in summary, those are the maybe things that you maybe watch out if you're developing a marketing strategy, uh, things like, you know, care, care about the animals, kind of like we said at the first, you know, that's the primary thing. So that'd be kind of my summary of, of my closing statement.

Yeah, no, I mean, I would agree with that. I think like we were saying, first and foremost, the quality of the animals should be everybody's priority, whether you're got two snakes or 200 or 2000 or whatever. But I think if, and this goes for anybody, not just somebody who's trying to make a full-time business, but even if it's just a side business or a hobby, like if you take a little bit of effort into, um, you know, your, your presentation, your look, your feel, the way you interact with people, the way you share stuff on the internet. I think it's really only a positive as long as, like you said, you're honest with whatever you're saying. You know what I mean? And in no industry or world other than things like this where it's like or it's like garage rock or something is like having a professional vibe or like putting money into your business seen as like a bad thing.

So it's like I just find it funny. It's like it's such a it's just it is. It's an eclectic group of people. And I think that because of that, it lends to a lot of opposing viewpoints, which is obviously the whole point of this podcast. There you go. You should want to get other people involved, whether it's because it's a really cool species that nobody knows about or not enough people know about, or whether it's because you want to preserve the hobby in the industry and bring more people in and make it, like we were saying, more palatable to the majority of the population. so those are my two main points I think that if you have a good product that you're proud of you should promote it to your best ability you should put your best foot forward and we should all be trying to

as it was so aptly put bridge the gap between our weird little corners of the world and the rest of humanity at large awesome Dan that's awesome yeah I think you've convinced me.

I'm siding with you now. Well done. Yeah. That's awesome. There's some really good points in there. And I, you know, I,

I, I think that's, that's a really important point, you know, that we want to, we're, this is an important thing, you know,

and we don't want to lose our rights to be able to do this. And if we have people who are representing us well, like your boss, you know, that, um, and you, and you, yeah. And I mean, just the, the presence and, you know, the professionalism that he and your group has, you know, that's, that's extremely important and we'll go a long way to preserving our rights and to make, make it possible extremely important and we'll go a long way to preserving our rights and to make, make it possible for us to do this for a long time. So, yeah. Thank you. Do I get an honorary doctorate now? I don't know if I can grant those, but maybe a fight club doctorate. We need a doctorate,

a fight club. Yeah, there you go. You change Justin's mind mind you get a little there you go you print out a little self-printed thing put it up on your wall maybe i can like mail out like little stethoscopes or something like i don't know i don't know why it's a stethoscope yeah wrong kind of doctor i do have to ask when is the book coming out? Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. I'm working on it. They just keep asking for pictures.

Anybody got more pictures? We need more pictures. No, man. We need a book. I'm about to fly to Australia and take some pictures for y'all. We need a book. I wish I could go over to Australia and take some pictures. Oh, that's hilarious.

Yeah. I mean, we're getting very close. We're going through the photo layout now. And it's hard because you always find something else that you need to add. I mean, just the other day I was looking at the chapters and I realized I hadn't edited the or, you know, updated the New Guinea carpet Python chapters. I'm like, oh, crap. Eric Burke's going to have. I was just going to say, Eric's going to be so mad at you. If I didn't update that one. Yeah, What the heck dude. Yeah. So I added a couple of pages to that and we, we got it all nice and updated, but it's, I mean, hopefully it'll be worth the wait. I, I, I can pretty much say, I think people are going to be happy with this. If they like the

first one, this one's going to be awesome. awesome honestly if you just did nothing but change the pictures i'd probably be like yes and we did we changed pretty much all the pictures it's gonna be all new pictures we we tried to avoid any like captive animals in the natural history chapters so they're all you know i love that because that to me is like i want you know in my head when i look at my cage i'm like daydreaming about like, that's actually like, I'm looking at Australia or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, I don't want to see it in a tub. I need to go eventually. Yeah. Oh, it's, it's one of the best experiences you'll have. I mean, it's such a great place to,

to herp. And I mean, on, on the one hand, you have these kinds of grand visions of what it's going to be like, and sometimes it's a little bit of a letdown. You're like, really? I'm not seeing anything. Oh, I mean, that's how I feel just herping locally. It's like, oh, it's going to be a great day. And it's like nothing. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, definitely there's some days like that, but then there's other days where you're like, oh man, it's just another, you know, knobtail gecko. I'm like, what am I saying? It's a knob tail gecko. I'm getting out of the car and I'm going to look at it, even though I saw, you know, 20 just to, you know, the last hour or two. So yeah, it can be phenomenal herping and other nights. I mean, we were talking, uh, I was talking

to Owen and Rob, uh, Rob Stone and Owen McIntyre about, um, the Doerat road in the Northern territory. Right. So when we went, um, on, it was my second trip. We went with, uh, Nick Mutton and Rico Walder. And, um, I mean, it was a fantastic year. Peter Burge, you know, it was a great trip, a couple of, um, but anyway, we were cruising this road that was recommended and we saw, you know, all these Lapids, night tigers, and then we start road that was recommended and we saw, you know, all these Lapid's night tigers. And then we started hitting the pythons later on at night. We saw a couple, you know, children's pythons, unfortunately they'd been hit by cars, but

then, you know, an olive and a blackhead and we're like, this is a great road. Yeah. We're coming back tomorrow. And then the next day we came back, nothing. We didn't see hardly anything on that road. And that's not, but that makes me wonder too because i'm like what was it about that night that everything was out i don't know like i just my wheels start turning with stuff like that like i i kind of wanted to have that it's the lunar

cycles yeah well i mean it was the day later the lunar cycle didn't change much, but you know, Eric Burke's fun. Yeah. But, uh, you know, I, and, and that's what Owen and those guys were saying was like, dude, the dough rat road sucks. We didn't see anything. And I'm like, well, you know, we didn't either one day, but we did another day at the famous fog dam. We went one night and we saw nothing.

Then we went the following night and saw like eight water pythons. You know, it's like sometimes things are just hopping and other times they're not. And, and I, I wanted to maybe have a topic on here of like, is herping, you know, 90% luck and 10% skill or the, the other way around, you know, can you, cause there's some guys that you, Utah herpers that find like stuff in ridiculous numbers. And I'm like, how are they finding all these animals, you know, like that are really hard to find. Sorry to cut you off. I was just, I just watched this documentary. My octopus teacher. I don't know if you guys. That's a cool one. I haven't watched it. Okay. Yeah. Well, he was like, he learned how to like track the octopus, right? Like underwater. So I'm like, maybe these guys, like people are good at

like gecko tracking or something. I don't know. Like, I guess if you did enough times, you could figure out the little, little marks in the sand or whatever. There's, there's definitely skill. And I got kind of schooled by Rico too. Cause we were, um, I don't know if you're familiar with Rico while they're here. Unfortunately, but yes. Um, yeah. Yeah. He's, he's fantastic. But I mean, you know, unfortunately he passed away, but I like to keep his memory alive, telling stories and things, but we were out there like fun. We found a, um, uh, a carpet, it was a Darwin carpet in, in the grounds around our Airbnb, you know, found it. And we're like just taking pictures and looking at it and stuff. And Rico's there like measuring the temperatures and he's taking notes and he's

like, where's your notebook? Why are you not writing anything down? I'm like, Oh, good point. You know, why don't I have a temp gun? Why aren't I, you know? And so we, you know, on our last herb trip to Arizona, just this last week, we were playing guess that I, you know? And so we, you know, on our last herb trip to Arizona, just this last week, we were playing guess that temperature, you know, I'd tempt, tempt the ground and say, okay, what's everybody's guess, you know? And, and we'd see, you know, and one night was super windy and like, we're thinking, is it worth even cruising? Like the winds were like 45 miles an hour. I'd be driving 45 with the wind and you wouldn't feel any wind out the window. It was pretty crazy, but then we'd stop and you're almost getting blown into the rattlesnake

you're photographing. But we found, you know, five or six snakes that night. Um, and you know, I think they, they know when it's windy, the owls aren't going to be the greatest hunters, you know, so that may be safe to come out out so there's a lot of different factors that i think you can learn and you know for sure i wish develop skill nothing more than like somebody or a bunch of people probably to like do that with every species and like just figure out like when are they more likely to come you know what i mean like just all the different things because i try to do that with my snakes in my house and it's nothing compared to the wild like all the variation you get. But it's so interesting to me just to think about what little environmental factors motivate them to do different things.

And if only we all could quit our jobs and do that full time. Just follow around stuff in the wild. Exactly. That's what I'm wanting to do during retirement. You know, just follow a certain group. Well, Frank Reedy, he's that monitor expert guy, kind of revolutionized monitor reading. Yeah. And he would go out and study Gila monsters.

He lived in Tucson area. And so he found a couple sites where there were, you know, a few Gilas. And he actually took us to the site. He blindfolded us on the way in and stuff. Like, so he didn't want us to. Yeah. He didn't blindfold us on the way out. So I think we gained his trust to some extent. I can't remember where it is anyway, but it was like 10 years ago, but, um, we, we went and, um, he would say, Oh, look under that,

look in that crack or look under that rock. And there'd be like two healers next to each other. We saw like five in an afternoon where they, where they hung out. So I do think, you know we saw like five in an afternoon where they where they hung out so i do think you know just even in your own collection looking at your animals getting to know their habits like oh you know when the lights come on they come out and bask for you know half an hour or an hour and then they go hide you know so learning things we can learn some things from our captives you know that can prepare us for looking at, looking for them. I'm going to get right now. So I'm just keep watching them and making notes. So exactly. Well, um, thank you so much for coming on. This has been a lot of fun and you brought

up some really great points and really good hits. She came prepared. that's the she following the rico method yeah so if people wanted to check you out summer like the stuff you do how might they get in touch with you or you want to put your stuff out there for people for sure um you can get me on instagram it's at girl with scales you can check me out on youtube just girl with scales i am on facebook my name is summer grace mitch. There might be another one or two of me, but you'll hopefully find me eventually. It says something about snakes in my profile picture. So you should know. Um, and yeah. And then if you want to check out, uh, what I do for my full-time job, um, you can look at Canova. So I I'm not, I'm not on the,

like, I'm not the host, but I am always behind the camera. So any of those videos and a lot of the social media posts and stuff is secretly me. Nice. Now, are your videos under that as well? My videos are under, my personal videos are under girl with scales. So that's where I cover more like educational topics or kind of the species that I keep. And then Canova is totally ball pythons. Perfect.

Okay. Awesome. All right. All right. Well pythons. Perfect. Okay. Awesome. All right. All right. Well, yeah, thanks for being on. Definitely.

A great fight club. I loved it. Yeah. Thank you guys so much for having me. It was, it was great to, uh, to be on and just honored to have been asked and had,

had a great time kind of bouncing ideas back and forth. So nice. Yeah. I don't know if you can hear, but my dog Ruby says, good job. Yes. I value her opinion. Oh can hear, but my dog Ruby says, good job. Yes. I value her opinion most of all.

Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. All right. Well, I'd encourage everybody to go out and check out all the different podcasts on the Morelia Pythons Network. There's been some really fun shows lately. And I think we're going to talk about the trip for the, um, Patreon, uh, folks, uh, for the herp trip. So if you want to hear about our Arizona herp trip, uh, with the MP crew, I think we're doing that, uh, Sunday night. So, uh, should be, should be fun to get together and reminisce about all the stuff we did, uh, over the last week. So, um, thanks again for listening and, uh,

we're, we appreciate your, your listening to reptile fight club and we'll see you next week for another episode. so Thank you.