Reptile Fight Club - MPR vs. THP- Pros and Cons of Influencers on the Reptile Hobby.

Episode Date: June 18, 2021

In this episode, special guest Eric Burke, Rob Stone, Justin Smith, and Phil Wolf tackle the topic of what are the pros and cons of influencers in the reptile hobby.Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland @-IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to the MGR Network. All right. All right. No. Oh, we already did that. Come on, catch up. They don't call me the podfather. That's good, that's good. All right, welcome to another edition of Reptile Fight Club. We have a special from the Field episode for you today. We're pitting the Morelia Python Radio group with the Herpetoculture Podcast group.

So we're going to have a nice little dirty fight today. Let's see, everybody kind of introduce yourselves. Let's get this party started. I'm Eric Burke from Morelia Python Radio. And, and, and, and. And every other podcast you hear of. I'm Justin Smith, the Herpetoculture podcast. The Conjurcast, Herpetoculture magazine.

Snakes and Stogies. Putting all his credentials out there. Forgot about that one, too. My name is Phil Wolfe. I'm Justin's lackey from Snakes and Stogies and the Herpetoculture Network. My name is Rob Stone from both everything and nothing. All right. So today's topic, we're going to talk about the pros and cons or the benefit and cost of influencers in the herpetological world. So we'll have the coin toss. We'll have them pick a side.

I have a bob cap. We could. This is truly from the field. Didn't think they'd get a coin. All right. Okay. Nos, his heads. Nos' heads.

The other side, his tails. Okay, let's have the podfighter call it. I'm going to call Noss. Okay, here we go. You won the toss. Okay, you get to pick your side for you and Rob to defend. What do you think, Rob? Should we go?

Oh, he's no help. I'm going to say I'm going to go con. Okay. Takes the con side. So influencers do not help further our cause in the reptile world. All right. So that means you guys get the pro. Now, as you won the toss, you get to decide whether you go first

or you defer to your opponent. I will defer. Alright, let's fight. Get it on. I feel like this is difficult for Smithy. It's not difficult, because I mean, I do see both sides of it, but it's...

There's a lot of people that have large followings. I'm sure we all know who those people are because I'm be they have the reach that stuff like what we do doesn't have. They're exposing more people to the hobby, depending, I guess, on who we're talking about. You know, be it like Barczyk, you know, he's exposing people to the hobby as far as keeping stuff and you have guys that are kind of out in the field and exposing people to sort of the herping aspect of it and things like that. More exposure. Yeah. Anything to add, Phil? Yeah, I would say that aside from just going with what Justin said about getting more people who previously had no concept of keeping reptiles in captivity or even liking reptiles.

And now they're like, wow, that's fascinating. Maybe I'll Google that. Maybe I'll, you know, oh, wow, look at that snake that, you know, so-and-so with, you know, 4.6 billion followers has. If he's got it, that looks really pretty. That looks really cool. Let me Google that. Let me find that out. Let me pull up that old dusty textbook that I stole from the library in sixth grade and see and learn and, and, and educate people, you know? And I think that if the,

even if the information being put out is not, uh, uh, correct, I think it's still, it's getting people to think it's getting people to look and maybe dive deeper than they normally would, even if they're just waiting to watch the person get bit. Okay, Merrick and Rod. So like Justin, I can see both sides of this coin. However, I think that what gets lost in this is that we live in a society of sensationalism and you're forever having to outdo the person that was before you um i guess for my generation steve erwin would be a perfect example of uh you know reaching lots of people and showing them, you know, nature and caring about nature. However, I would argue that nature doesn't need sensationalism because it's fascinating all by itself without any kind of bells and whistles. You know, how it's how they survive in the wild,

how they've adapted to live in the environments that they live, whether it be, you know, the venomous rattlesnakes that we have here or, you know, adapting to the color of the rock that they live on, you know, how they breed, how they, you know, how much they move from place to place and adapt in environments that, like, I had a hard time surviving. And so, um, so I think ultimately the, the, the problem is, is that it, it, you know, when, when it's a one upper and somebody is just hold and say, you know, I guess the classic would be a venomous snake or a big snake, you know, you're having to get people to you know with clickbait and uh to get people to tune into something like that when i would argue that um you don't need that uh but i i think that's more for the ego of the person that's doing it than

the animal okay rob you got something to add to that? Yeah, I agree with what Eric just said there. I think the distillation of that point, right, is that the danger lies in folks mimicking the activity of people who they themselves may be qualified to engage in that activity. It has some level of risk for them to engage in that activity, but kind of propagates this notion or suggests that this is an appropriate way to do it, even when mediated by saying, oh, don't do what I do. But there's kind of a wink and a nod that goes along with that often. And that can, while it's, there's some level of risk in the hands of someone who has a really good sense,

either with that animal or with the practice they're engaging in, it can be really dangerous when it's practiced by someone who just takes a look at that, has no other experience, and tries to mimic or copy that. That's really where it can be actually physically dangerous. Yeah. All right. Well, some good opening statements, some punches thrown. Let's keep it going. Back to you guys on the pro side. So the clickbait thing is extremely frustrating to me because even if it's a

well-intentioned video, which I know some people, they do the clickbaity thumbnail, even though it's going to be misleading not necessarily saying that in a bad way but it's like they know people are going to look at it and then maybe they get them hook, line, and sinker

sort of in the first minute or so and they end up watching the whole thing but I don't find it necessary I don't find it necessary. I don't really like it. I mean, I understand why people do it. But at the same time, I mean, it does, like the general public, they're looking for sort of that Steve Irwin effect where it's kind of over the top and it grabs people's attention because they're, as we say on Snakes and Stogies,

they're waiting for the car wreck. It's like the people that watch NASCAR. And so if you're bringing them in but you have a video that doesn't match the thumbnail at all, I think you have a decent shot of grabbing some attention. But it's not – I'm not a fan of the clickbait thing anyways. It just feels disingenuous. But I can understand why people would feel the need because our attention spans are ever shrinking. It does – I mean it has to work or else they wouldn't all do this.

There's got to be something to it, the algorithm or something. What about you, Phil? I can tell you personal experience is I have a friend of a friend who was at a barbecue. And he's like, hey, man, I want to let you know, you know, me and my kid, you know, the kid's eight years old, just getting into reptiles. And, you know, I thought lizards were cool. But, you know, I just started going on YouTube and found a bunch of bar check stuff. And found a bunch of older videos from people that, honestly, probably shouldn't have been making videos. But what it did was he fell into the clickbait. I think we're a professional.

I'm trying here. Fell into the clickbait and it segued into so many other rabbit holes. And that was like we were talking about a little bit ago is that the clickbait isbait is almost i don't want to say it's necessary but humans they thrive on entertainment they want entertainment go back to the romans you know are you not entertained you know and uh and i feel like if the clickbait is horrible and times are happening it gets horrible but most of the clickbait is is i'm gonna say socially acceptable but people know they're clicking clickbait they look at the picture and it's like six-year-old boy handles rattlesnake for the first time and it's like a kid holding a deli cup so like people know that that they are clicking quote-unquote clickbait but they're still going

to do it because they're curious yeah at this at this point it's kind of to be expected. Right, to be expected. And it's going to segue into more, whether it brings them to Attenborough or it brings them to Billy Bob in his garage with the stinging copperhead. So I think it's all right. I'd rather see it be done differently, but humans want to be entertained. They want to see, like Justin said, see the car crash. I really want to see David Atin said see the car crash so i really want to see david attenborough do a clickbait will i die this evening check it out if you click the link

um well i will concede i will agree that you know the clickbait is clickbait is something that gets people to watch the video and probably will get more people aware of reptiles that maybe didn't know about reptiles. My problem with it is the idolization of those people and what they're doing, to Rob's point, that could lead them to get into a bad situation that could ultimately lead to people looking at reptiles or the hobby or, you know, just even reptiles in general. Let's just say that there is no hobby and you got a rattlesnake in your yard. You know, grandpa's going to go and chop its head off because he doesn't understand it. And because of the clickbait of the boy gets holds rattlesnake and whatever the example you used and

ultimately that that's going to hurt the the animal's life i feel that the reptile hobby currently is sort of well i should say specifically the snake hobby is sort of at a at a place where it's growing and we're learning about these animals because people are not so much focused on the breeding morph part of it anymore and more into the behavior and trying to like really understand these animals and there's great people out there doing great things and they're not being recognized because you know they don't have a flashy clickbait and it's – I just refuse to – for me, I refuse to give in to that and I'm going to fight that as long as I can because I believe that ultimately, like I said, the animals is the excitement, the entertainment, the fascination i mean if if you're listening to this you're probably a reptile keeper or interested in reptiles and it wasn't a well maybe today's jam but back in my you know you would go out most people that we've talked to on podcasts is how did you get into reptiles it was i was out

in my outback hunting snakes and i found a garter snake and you were fascinated by that garter snake and you know our constant need to idolize people that you know you look at some of these venomous people that are doing things that you know to to everybody's point yeah maybe they're trained but you know little johnny is not trained and he's going to go and pick up that cobra and it's not going to end good for anybody yeah a lot of copycat stuff could end poorly. I think the other aspect that's important in the clickbait conversation is just making sure that – honestly, I'm not – I recognize the necessity of doing it to some extent in terms of gaining that reach relative to the YouTube algorithm and all these different things, I think my own perception of it is whether the, whether the clickbait is positivist to reptiles in the sense that if so long as that I'm actually okay with clickbait, as long as the feeling that

it's imbuing in people is that reptiles are cool and they do amazing things, then that's totally fine. It's when it's already the general consensus is not necessarily pro-reptile, particularly snake. And that's sort of a historical trend, right? And we don't, as people interested in reptiles who are interested in people gaining interest and not fear in reptiles, we don't need to be making videos that make them more afraid. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I think we've – I hate the word clickbait, so let's get off that topic.

Let's talk about another aspect of this. So you got something else for us? Yeah. Well, it's an interesting sort of transition because I think everyone – I mean obviously you're not going to be the same person in your younger years as your older years, or at least most people won't be. I think I'm a good example of that. When I was a kid, I loved Steve Irwin. I had the action figures and everything. If we're talking about, you know, mid-aughts or, you know, early 2000s, mid-2000s, late 2000s, whatever, you know, when Barczyk was sort of just starting out, I watched, I watched his stuff pretty regularly. And then over time, I just, you know, your, your views and, and it's being in the hobby long-term, your views and things change

your, you sort of, the people you surround yourself with and the people that influence you changed, you know, that, that sort of directs where you, where you go in a sense. It seems like a lot of times we forget, you were starting, how that worked, how that happened. Well, you look at Irwin. I mean, yeah, the guy did a lot for animals when I was a kid. I thought he was awesome. I look at him now, and it's not that he's not. But I see some of the stuff he did.

It kind of hurts to watch because it's like how many times did he come so close to getting absolutely nailed by something? And it would have been so easily preventable. And so looking at it now, you know, there's a lot of stuff that I don't agree with. The message and the enthusiasm and stuff was definitely there. But over time, I mean, everyone changes. You know, you see, like if I go back and watch videos on YouTube now of stuff that I used to watch, you know, channels I used to subscribe to, I'd probably look at them and not agree with them at all. But, you know, when you're looking at 16 years ago, you know, I thought they were great.

I can think of a lot of, you know, a lot of channels where that was the case, where I watch them now. And even those same videos that I watched as a kid, you know, I watch them now. And it's like, man, I remember this being a lot more into it than I was. So people change. I can go on to that as well. I watched Steve Irwin when I was a kid too. We all did. When you're a kid, you got a frog in my throat um when you're a kid

you don't realize the sound effects and you yeah you watch steve irwin as an adult and it's like oh yeah look at this snake oh look it's gonna strike and then you hear like the flap and the so you realize that and it didn't matter because the amazingness of it was still there. And you're looking past the fact that, you know, rattlesnakes don't hiss like cobras and they use the wrong sound effect. And you don't know that because you're a kid, but the fascination is still there. And, you know, as I got older, I found Austin Stevens. And Austin Stevens was awesome because, like, I love African stuff. He's African. Most of the stuff he did was in Africa. I love African stuff he's African most of

the stuff he did was in Africa I still love that and that scrub python episode oh that's amazing that was that was cool now when I think of like especially King Horney it's like you think of those mountains he was in yeah absolutely awesome but you go back as an adult and you watch it and you're like he just put that snouted cobra in that bush and still got bit like a moron. But at the same time, when I was a kid, it made me go on a rabbit hole to learn as much as I could about snouted cobras. So I think that the influencers as a whole are extremely beneficial despite the way that they're going about it. And like, yeah yeah you look at like the coyote peterson you know he's getting stung by everything and now i got my my neighbor's

wife coming up to me saying hey my son wants a pet scorpion but i just found that he's been getting bees in the backyard and stinging himself with it thank god he's not allergic so she's gonna have to deal with that now because the kid watches Coyote Peterson. But again, think about how many thousands if not millions of people learned a ton about animals or got interested about animals and bugs because of Coyote and his nonsense. So, yeah. I would again agree with what these guys said. You can't. This is a fight. And now the gloves are coming off.

But I think the problem is that most of those – so if you're a herper, you're going to find your way, right? You're going to be – because I remember and as you guys are sitting here and saying like do you remember when you were getting into it and i think of that episode of the scrub python on mount garnet and here he has to go and find it and you know um and how cool i thought it was and yes you know and and to phil's point it led me down a rabbit hole to learn more about australian reptiles and everybody know how that ended up for me. But what I would say is that a lot of those videos and a lot of these influencers are not necessarily geared towards and to both the THP crew here's point, they moved away from those videos because the interest for them wasn't there

anymore and the problem is is that those influences are gearing towards people that don't really know about reptiles and you're painting them in my opinion a lot of them are painting them in a negative light and i think rob sort of said it earlier it's like clickbait is okay if you're talking about the the animal uh but not necessarily the person. And I think a lot of times what happens with – again, with society today and those people is that they become sort of these stars and they become a celebrity and everybody wants to talk to them and get their autograph. And it's just like well yeah yes it's no longer about the animal it now becomes about the person and the the only way that that person can continue to keep that level of and again to the guy's point earlier that nascar effect

is to keep outdoing what was done the last time, eventually you're going to come to a point where that's going to negatively affect the animal's welfare and the perception of that animal as from regular people in society. Yeah, I was surprised to find out there's a whole conference of pet tubers where they all get together and people come to meet them. I don't know if it's just pet tubers. It might be influencers or YouTubers in general. But people come to meet their YouTube heroes. It's insane.

It's just crazy. So another – along the same line, a thing that bothers me is when folks are fundamentally dishonest about what they're doing in the sense of putting staged animals and not representing that accurately. And heck, we're out here field herping right now, right? And a lot of content makes it seem like it's easier to do than it is, which can arguably have a benefit, right? In the sense of saying, saying yeah encouraging people to do it but the problem is if then that proves not to be the case then that will discourage those same people and it can have a net negative effect i really respect the heck out of marco shea when on his shows because it was all legitimate and that that occasionally meant that they would have episodes

where he wasn't finding the desired item and it would still be presented in some context right okay here it is in a captive context here's what we're trying to do you get some eyes on an education you can still you still get access to it but there's not this false narrative right that then says oh i went out and did this thing in one day that it takes that people have spent decades trying to do and i just find that it has the potential to be super discouraging to people it opens the door and then sort of shuts it in terms of people going out and saying i want to find this and they never find it they're like i never want to do and i'm a failure because i haven't done he did it in 10 minutes you know it didn't take hardly anything at all and obviously that they didn't see the the magic of editing and the potential that it just

wasn't there at all. It just was placed – the pot was sweetened. Oh, yeah. And to jump off of that point a little bit, if you have people that are out there and they're not finding something as quickly as they saw on their favorite YouTube channel, maybe they're going to rip apart the environment a little more and and actually ultimately hurt that environment for the animal that it's in because they feel like oh they you know i gotta dig this or flip this or you know rip this tree root out well you know it just i don't know i think maybe that can sometimes have a negative effect on the actual environment yeah too we've been out in west texas for the last week and you know we've

spent countless hours you know pretty much all night searching for things and and we've found you know maybe five or six seven species of snake and that's what we're looking for you know so between five of us we've basically found one snake each you know it's pretty uh low uh you know low reward high effort on the scoreboard. Just because Doc finds six snakes, Eric and I are still goose-egged. But you give it your best shot. You put yourself in the environment and you enjoy it for what it is because it's been a blast. Of course. We've had a great time.

Well, yeah, just on a side note, know again um to me you know a lot of people would say like oh i didn't find us me and phil were actually talking about this when we were you know shining lights and cuts and stuff and one of the things i said was that like i don't really care if i find the animal or not to me it has nothing to do with me saying that i successfully found the animal what i want to do is just see the animal in the wild. You know, to me, it has nothing to do with my ego of putting a, you know, a species on the board or whatever. It's just about being able to like, look at that animal. When there's no glass between you and that animal, it's a whole different thing. And I think these guys are all the same way.

It's not about like, look what I found. You didn't find it. I found it. It's none of that kind of stuff. And I mean, to see them in that environment, like last night, there was a rattlesnake coiled perfectly. It looked like a little rock. You almost wouldn't notice it. And you just can appreciate

how cool that is. It was perfectly staged. Seeing how it was, it was like, that's actually, like, that's, finding it exactly how you would see it in the books and stuff was, was really cool. I like that a lot. Yeah. And, I mean, we are, as a society, kind of geared towards that instant gratification. We want the payoff.

We don't want to, even with, I find myself, if I'm watching a YouTube video, I skip forward past all the talking just to see the animals. So it's like I don't know if I'm any better. But as a society, it's good to take a step back and enjoy nature and just put yourself in the moment and not worry about putting a point on the scoreboard. Yeah. putting a point on the scoreboard you know you want yeah would we say the average mileage for the week was about we we collectively i know doc you you put several more miles on your body than we did but i think the average was what we did like 40 miles this week hiking yeah something like that yeah so and again seven snakes 40 miles through the bush and we only found seven snakes. We're talking about horned lizards and the bear and birds.

Yeah, and birds. They're reptiles too. Scorpions and tarantulas. And I know I'm supposed to be opposing the NPR boys, but I've got to agree with them that you can't just have that, oh look, there it is in this bush.

You've got to show that it takes time and that they're not around every corner. And some of them it's for a reason. Some of them it's because it's our fault, you know? But, and I don't mean to cut turn for Justin, but I may get flack for what I'm about to say and I don't care. A good friend of mine, his name is Mike. You might know him as TheRealTarzan. He is Instagram, YouTube, internet famous. He's got like six million followers on Instagram alone. And he is a legitimate influencer because he's got all these brands coming to him to rep their products and he has his own apparel line and he's doing a ton for conservation in terms of raising money for for animal related charities and you know people gave him crap because he went up

to a quote-unquote sanctuary and he paid a handful of money to go swim with you know a baby leopard or something that's like well clearly you can see it's in a pool he's not in the wild he's not really healthy it's like no all those people went and just harping on the original topic. All those people went and Googled baby leopards, whether they wanted to swim with them themselves or they wanted to just learn about leopards or jaguars or whatever it was. But I don't want to put words in his mouth because I'm not that guy. But I've noticed a change in his content where he's realizing that he has the following and people are watching but they're curious they're they're thirsty for knowledge and yes it's cool to see this attractive

famous celebrity going and doing adventurous stuff but when it comes down to brass tacks it was started because of the animals so now he's revamped his content and he's starting to do more adventure-based stuff. So it's still entertaining, but it's basically in the field showing you animals that you may not even have known existed. And they may be endangered now and we got to do something to maybe help fix it or something. So that's the cactus scribbling against the window. I heard it earlier so so yeah so so even though he has a ton of clickbaity stuff the guy is extremely passionate about animals and he may have a very unorthodox approach to it and his technique may be slightly dangerous or the or the the words that he used may not be

appropriate or or misleading but the the meaningfulness behind it is true and pure. And he wants to help people and educate people. And he also has a lot of, I don't want to say clients, a lot of followers that are not animal people at all. But again, now they're going out and whether that means that they're buying a book on turtles or they went out and bought an actual turtle, or they just went down to the lake to go look at a turtle. It may or may not be because of the real Tarzan, but those people are still doing stuff. So I think that's a huge benefit to us as a community and a hobby and our reptile world. And I assume he's not like wrestling like the old Tarzan No, no. Trying to fight a leopard in a pool.

Yeah. So it's probably a more positive message. Yeah, I think he actually is wrestling with a leopard in the pool, but not to kill it to save Jane. Just for fun. But, Smitty? Yeah, I mean, building off the O'Shea thing, like, Austin Stevens, I think, did do a good job in the, like, really sort of showing the adventure side of it,

to where it's, like, yeah, there's, you know, obviously they have their sort of little cliffhangers where they're like, before commercial break, you know, we don't know if we're going to find it or not, and that's what keeps people attached. That's what keeps people watching it. Kind of like, I mean, The Walking Dead is kind of a good example in a sense. That was a great show for the first handful of seasons,

and then after a while it just got boring to me. But people kept tuning in every week because they wanted to see if something, you know, if there was a shakeup or something, you know, some sort of major plot twist or whatever. And so I think that is one of the reasons maybe people do continue to tune in. But there's also another point to kind of go back to earlier

is there's an evolution of information. So you have people that post videos of green trees on YouTube and I see them and a lot of that information is outdated in my opinion but those people then they see green trees and because they stumbled across that video and maybe they're keeping reptiles or maybe they're not and so they're interested regardless but even though that information is wrong they're going to continue to to follow breadcrumbs of

videos and articles and things and read and eventually come to, you know, stuff like what you guys are doing, like your book, and then realize as they're going, like, okay, that information that I saw, and even if it was an older video, you know, there's an evolution of things where, like, I know we've done it, you know, with different things. You just, you find a species that catches your eye, like bamboo rats for me, like I've always had an interest in them. Couldn't tell you what the difference

between the different subspecies and stuff, but in talking to, you know, Dr. Messenger and reading his book and stuff like that, it makes a little more sense, but it also really sparked an interest in those Chinese and Asian rat snakes to begin with, you know, especially some of the alafé and stuff like that. And so now I have some, but I'm constantly looking up information on, like,

bimaculata and the dione and all that stuff because it's a part of the world that doesn't have a whole lot of information regarding the animals, herps there. But it's just that evolution. evolution you know like at one point i would have said yeah that's a bamboo rat snake couldn't tell you which kind um but because of finding stumbling across these these different sources of information you know you kind of follow them and eventually you you realize people are keeping them wrong or there's a right way and a wrong way to do it and that's sort of where i'm at with that my perception of austin stevens when when i was sort of getting i always loved nature and whatnot

but i was getting back into the hobby so i was always looking for some kind of content to to watch and back in that you know at that time youtube really wasn't a big thing per se like it is today and um the difference i noticed with him is that and to justin's point about it being a venture is like a lot of the uh for lack of a better word clickbaity stuff would be with him falling off a cliff or you know so it really had nothing to do with the animal per se being you know i know there was some episodes where to your cobra you know so it really had nothing to do with the animal per se being you know i know there was some episodes where to your cobra you know example and whatnot yeah really yeah you really got this but i think a lot of his his things were you know like oh i'm gonna swing on this vine into the pool and jump on top of the anaconda you know it's like it's almost like indiana jones meets steve irwin

type of deal you know and and obviously coming up in the 80s that's what you know like i was like immediately drawn to like oh this guy's like indiana jones for animals you know um but i didn't get the impression that um he was doing it uh for the animals you, and that could be wrong, but that, you know, as the viewer at the time and being new into getting back into reptiles, that sort of was my perception, you know. It's more to build the brand name than to educate or to... Yeah, it's like, I'm gonna do something that may hurt me personally, but I'm gonna do that so that I can grab your attention to sort of tell you about how cool the scrub python is up in cans and and why it should be there and and why it's you know helping the environment and ultimately why we should make sure that that animal stays there yeah and on that

point i think that goes to kind of the pro argument that you guys are making that'd be the sort of clickbait that i think is fine. It's kind of dumb and you run into the same, like people might mimicking that might hurt themselves, but at least it's not at the expense of the animals themselves. So long as that's the case, I suppose that's fine. And that's the point to you guys. You see that, you see that guy, you know, the old guy that throws his shirt on the alligator and he's on a golf course or whatever.

He tries to jump on its back and the thing just grabs it and whips him around like a rag doll. You probably saw countless Steve Irwin moments where he's jumping on the back of a box. He's like, oh, that looks easy. They forget that you need a certain level of expertise to effectively do that without hurting yourself, without hurting the animal. Right. do that you know without hurting yourself without hurting the animal right and to another point you know um uh you know we've been doing npr for 10 years and over those 10 years we have evolved as well um you know in the early days we would get caught up in drama in the community and this and that and i can tell you firsthand that that drove people to listen you you know, and, and I see as soon as there's a few podcasts out

there, I mean, podcasters are influencers as well. And, you know, when I when I actually took a step back and looked at that, and, you know, how much that could influence people, I don't want to influence people negatively, I want to influence them positive, in a positive way. So I always try to make it about the animals and not the person that's why you know we're always talking about you know natural history or how do you keep these things properly or like you know we're we're field herping here and and you know justin as you all know is as like the baird's man and now he's actually in the environment and i bet you he has a whole different perception of that animal now because he's actually

felt the heat and let me tell you it's hot you know um and like you know it's not saying that you're going to make your your enclosure 111 degrees but you're gonna you know you're gonna have an understanding of what that means what heat from that environment means what the humidity feels like you know and to me that's why I say it all the time, you know, field herping for the for that animal that you love not only builds camaraderie with, you know, with friends, and you have a good time, and you get to talk about things and, you know, get to know people on a personal level. It also, you know, gives you a better understanding of that animal, and ultimately, is going to lead to that animal having a good life in a box, if you will. So like, you know, to to be worried about what a price of amorph is and drama and all

this stuff, it's like, you know, we made a conscious decision to move away from that. And I see some some podcasts out there that, you know, their whole idea of the show is based upon the drama that happened that week. And I've personally been in conversations with people that want to start drama so that people will tune in to both our podcast and the other person's podcast. And that's just – to me, it's just ridiculous. It should be about – ultimately, again, I keep saying it should be about the island. And that's why we're all here. Yeah.

Yeah. But it has been really cool to see, you know, being a Bairds guy and being able to go to the different counties and stuff that they're found and seeing the mass differences in habitat and stuff but also you know take pictures of you know the cuts and stuff and sort of the plants and the arrangements and the you know eric has his uh temp gun and uv meter and all that stuff and so we're you know we're taking information down as we go and it's that it's like what eric was saying you know kind of like what we've said about daytona is it's it's less about sort of the the goal uh and more about just sort of the just the enjoyment of of doing it um you know it's the sort of the adventure aspect of you know will you find it will you not it's kind of like a you know a lotto ticket even if it's a

night snake like last night when I was walking and found that night snake it was straight going up the trail and it was you get that sort of that weird, that quick sort of shot of adrenaline where it's like you see a snake and you're just like, what is it? You know, and then you, it's, like that's fun. Even if it's something you see three times a night, like it's still cool to find them. Maybe two in the morning, but that sure wakes you up. Better than the, what, Joel, what do you drink? Bang. Better than the bang to see a snake at 2 a.m.

But it's that kind of stuff where it's like, okay, if I saw that, am I going to see something else 20 yards up, you know, 10 feet up? You know, it just keeps you wanting to do more but if we had a video showing people this is just what we found you know it kind of it would sort of take away the you wouldn't really get the sort of the essence of of what it's like and what you're doing you know and even just not even just that but just the entire you know the bigger picture of being in the desert in the middle of the night and it's dead silent you know you got the stars and everything and you know all the scorpions and tarantulas and seeing everything just kind of do its normal nightly routine and stuff like if i was doing a video of this trip it would be that whole thing of you know it's not

going to be just all the stuff we found but it would be like you know the sunsets and the trails and stuff that we walked in the bears and you know yeah show them yeah i mean you you show them the adventure because like i mean you were saying it's not about the animals per se. Like, Justin and I always joke about Daytona and how it's a party and it's this and it's that. And it's like, oh, well, we always say it's to go hang out with chosen family. The animals are just a bonus. So, like, us on this Herp trip, like, hadn't made it we didn't we took some video but we didn't make a video specifically about the trip like you know eric's got a temp gun showing

people that it is 101 degrees at midnight and like getting the the feeling about it and showing how we would how we went herping like i've been herping since i was a kid but in anticipation for this trip this specific trip i was on youtube i was like hey look at some field herping like i've been herping since i was a kid but in anticipation for this trip this specific trip i was on youtube i was like hey look at some field herping videos and i was like oh my god there's a lot of people that are doing it right on video and there's a lot of people that are doing wrong on video it's like oh we're in such and such canyon and here's we found just like justin said and you got another person that's like oh we're in such and such canyon. Let's show you everything to a T of how we physically and mentally did it. Well, also not showing the miles walked.

Yeah. It's tough. The hard work involved. And this is why a simple night snake is so rewarding because we just walked three hours. Haven't seen a thing, but we stumbled across a couple of these, and they are really cool snakes like that's yeah that makes it worth it that's yeah yeah it was hard work you don't get the reward you were necessarily wanting but you got something and so that makes it you know even the scorpions and the coleonics and stuff like i love those coleonics geckos yeah and so finding those you know last night it was like trips worth it like automatically like you

know you find those that's it i'm happy now i know how it is to to um for a novice or a beginner herper to herp with somebody like you know like our group where we know a lot of the scientific names and things like when i see you guys talking about scorpions and tarantulas and you're using the sign i have no clue what you're talking about like dumb it down for me guys and i think that's important to you know admit when you don't know something if you want to learn more about it you got to ask questions you gotta say hey wait you know take it back give me a common name or saw a big aphona pelma a what what's that tarantula a what spider big spider big spider yeah it doesn't help that i don't i don't speak

up i'm pretty quiet and i think i'm half deaf, and that's part of the problem. But he's like, what? Spider. That's very good. Yeah, I would totally agree. And there certainly are content creators that put that stuff out there because so much of it, I think, is just the positivist associated with the whole deal of saying kind of the zen of field herping, enjoying the process.

And those folks that really make a point of doing that that's awesome the contrary point obviously is really a bummer and i just think will lead to disappointment and is misleading both in terms of the process process oriented and i know my uh one of my big bugaboos of far too many that I have working on that is that when people downplay the significance of what they've achieved, right? They're putting content into the world, whether it's in YouTube or on Instagram or whatever, and they devalue what they have actually succeeded in finding, right?

They devalue their own success by putting on language that suggests it's no big deal. Well, that might be – they're probably doing that I assume to speak to their buddies who are similarly situated. But they're doing that at the expense of everyone who looks at that content who doesn I understand the inclination but it's very disappointing because it's – really it's missing the mark in the sense that 99.9 percent of the people observing that content probably don't get to see those at all. It takes it for granted. So yeah, exhibiting behavior that takes it for granted is just really – it's really frustrating and it's the sort of off-putting stuff that undermines the whole deal yeah even if they are feeling that or that that's really their reality that's kind of sad too you know so either way it's a negative thing you know to say oh i'm out here and this is you know no big deal that just goes to the point that it becomes more about the content creator and not the content. Because, you know, if I'm over herping Australia, I could find carpets all night long.

You know, like I would never get bored of them. And, you know, maybe somebody would. But to me, like that's the whole reason I would be doing it. And to me, it becomes it's just like in the hobby when you're keeping an animal you're keeping a lot of times people will keep animals because they think by keeping a certain species a certain level of notoriety comes along with keeping such species I think the same thing is at play with field herping right you go out you find a corn snake and like you know the little kid that's getting into reptiles is going to be like, oh my gosh, that's a cool corn snake.

You know? Well, yeah. Nipper would kill a corn snake. Exactly. It's like, man, I got a room of – The cutest little kid we know. Love you, mate. Prime example.

We just like – we have – And you're downplaying it because it's not a – this rare snake that has only been found three times. Yeah, exactly. So it's – I don't know. I just think that, again, I keep making the argument that – well, maybe we're not arguing because it seems like we kind of agree here. I don't know. It's segueing. Interesting. we kind of agree here i don't know it's it's it's segueing interesting but um uh i keep making the

argument that a lot of that content is really based upon the person and not the animal because like you take a channel like live in zoology i don't know i don't know how i don't know how much so yeah i don't know how well they do and justin was saying earlier like i don't want to hear anybody talk about it just show me the snake you want to talk over top while we're watching the snake or the reptile or the animal or whatever i'm all for it but i don't want to see your face while i want to see that that snake or i want to see whatever you know that animal is and what it's doing in an environment and like i bet you that a lot of people would tune into that and would kind of be bored because they're just – they're waiting for that snake to attack somebody or then to pick it up and – or again, that rare thing. Like, oh, look at this rare thing.

Like most people don't know – and again, you're like your average person. You're an average person that's out there. And to Rob's point earlier, the world is very anti-snake for the most part. So we have a huge battle or a huge till to get on top of with that. And I think the best way to put sort of the video thing as far as herping and that is like would you rather watch the highlight reel the next morning of the video thing as far as herping and and that is like would you rather watch the highlight reel the next morning of the super bowl or would you rather watch the game itself and see it play out and good point see that you know the team that might be you know the underdog or something or sort of come up and sort of that just that rise and fall of of this is what you're dealing with and you don't have to make it super dramatic or anything like that, but just showing people this is what's involved when you're out here doing this kind of stuff,

you know, and explaining the environment. Because that's what's blown my mind this entire time is how things even survive out here, especially like Big Bend and where we were, you know, yesterday and stuff. It's just, it's brutal. And so it gives me a better appreciation for those animals because it's like the fact that, you know, yesterday and stuff. It's just, it's brutal. And so it gives me a better appreciation for those animals because it's like the fact that, you know, a little coleonic sea echo can survive, you know, and not become food instantaneously to pretty much anything out there is, you know, on top of the heat, on top of the lack of water,

on top of, it's freaking incredible. It was 148 degrees Fahrenheit on the surface. In the day, yeah. In the day, yeah. In the day, yeah. When we saw the colyonics, it was probably closer to maybe 95, but still. Still hot. That's hot. I mean, they kind of go somewhere during the day.

That's the thing. Yeah, you can feel that radiating, you know, the whole evening. Yeah, it's like we were walking on a radiant heat panel the whole night. And this, I mean, this gecko, it looks so delicate and, you know, but those things are tough to be able to survive in that environment. I want to see the whole thing and to learn about the Chihuahua Desert and stuff like that. And just seeing it for the first time, it gives me a better appreciation for it. And so now when I see other people doing videos of that, I want to see, you know, A, they probably went to the same places we went to,

and so it's cool to see them go through the same thing you went through. Like I wouldn't necessarily want to see someone go out to where we went to and find, you know, just give us a highlight reel. We found this, this, this, this, this. Cool, see you later. You know, I want to say I look, yeah, I walked that trail. You know, I've been up on that hill and, you know, knowing what was involved and just having a better appreciation for that kind of

stuff and people who put in the work to show you that yeah well it sounds like we're kumbaya on more than we're fighting but that's all right you know because it it really you know emphasizes the fact that um we're all in this together. We need to kind of reach that goal of getting people excited about animals for the right reason and not so much for the wrong reason. So I appreciate you guys being on here and having your points. And it's been a great conversation. And hopefully we'll take this into account and put out good content, put out positive content and get people excited. Yeah, that's what it boils down to.

It's kind of subjective as far as the clickbait thing. Guys like us or you guys in particular are going to view it to different degrees as Phil Wood. But then also sort of like Eric was saying yesterday in our conversations is vote with your dollar and support the people. We're doing it right. The people you think are doing it right, even if it's something maybe other people don't or they disagree with, that's your wavelength. Stick with that and support that. That's your prerogative. Yeah, that like or that subscribe or that share or whatever can really make a difference in that person being able to continue to bring or that share. Patreon. You know, or whatever can really make a difference

in that person being able to continue to bring you that content. So if you, you know, for whatever reason, you think they're doing what you think is right. Let your moral compass be your guide. All right. Well, this concludes our Reptile Fight Club from the field from Sanderson, Texas. We'll say goodnight. The Outback Oasis. Yeah. Right on. concludes our Reptile Fight Club from the field from Sanderson, Texas.

We'll say goodnight. The Outback Oasis. Yeah. Right on. All right. Thanks, guys. Bye. Bye. so Thank you.