Reptile Fight Club - Obligation to Education with Rob Christian

Episode Date: March 7, 2024

Justin and Rob tackle the most controversial topics in herpetoculture. The co-hosts or guests take one side of the issue and try to hold their own in a no-holds-barred contest of intellect. Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the topic of Obligation to Education with Rob Christian         Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Rob @ https://www.instagram.com/highplainsherp/Follow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to another episode of Reptile Fight Club. With me, as always, is Easter Bob Rock. Rob Starr. Oh, hey, how are you doing, man? Good. Good, good. You survived your Class 3 killstorm. Don't make the sound of that, Class 3. Yeah, it was pretty good.

I woke up to, what, maybe six to eight inches on the ground and I went and, you know, snow bloated out. And then after I got done with, you know, the distal area, I came back and there was another inch or two where I just plowed. So yeah, it came down pretty good. It was, it was nice. It's been kind of a mild winter, but, uh, we survived. Yeah. I went up snowboarding with my daughter to hopefully catch some nice powder and we get up there and, uh, you know, we're riding the lift up and I hear people coming down like, Oh, that sounds icy. That's not good. And so we start going down. Yeah. It's, it's pretty icy, um, where it's groomed and then where it's not groomed, it's about two feet of slush,

you know, like, and it was not the powder I was, uh, hoping for. And I got stuck and had to turtle my way out for a good 45 minutes. Yeah. Yeah. For, uh, for an old guy, I, uh, it worked up quite the sweat and did, did, did another run. And we said, okay, I think that that'll do us for tonight. Let's get out of here. So yeah. Good times though. Is it hitting you now or are you guys getting snow? We were supposed to get some snow and rain today. We've had it. It's been weird. It's, uh, only been snowing on Saturday, Friday nights into Saturdays for like the last month. So for whatever reason, but, uh, yeah, we've gotten, it doesn't seem like this one will be very much, but like, I don't know about you, but yeah, the last, yeah, three Saturdays or three, three or four Saturdays or something like that. It's been

probably about what you're describing or lower, you know, between three to six, eight inches, something like that every Saturday. So, yeah, we've had a few good snowstorms, but it's rained a lot too. So I don't think there's much snow on the ground right now. I mean, unlike the driveways and roads, it's pretty clear. But yeah, there's still a little bit on the grass. My dog is freaking running away from me. I'm chasing him around, trying to catch him. And he's a slippery little bugger.

He's a little French bulldog, and, man, he's just an escape artist. I can't catch the dang thing, and I'm just chasing around. Get back here, Homer. Come on, Homer. He's like a Homer Simpson. Yeah, good times. That's pretty good. Well, we are joined tonight by our good friend, Rob Christian.

How are you doing, man? Hey, I'm doing pretty good. Just hanging out in the room, and I'm really excited to be on. I do listen to every episode, so I'm excited to be on. Right on, yeah. We're glad to have you on. I messaged you a while back, but you don, you don't, you don't do a messenger. So you never got my message saying, Hey man, come on the show.

Yeah. I, I've wanted to go on since you guys started. I just love listening to all the episodes, but yeah, I don't use Facebook messenger. I don't even really use the Facebook app. I, I log on and do it through the web browser, like an old person. Right on. Yeah. It's probably smart but yeah so either way glad to glad to finally get you on but just just know you were in the in the list a long time ago so yeah i'm honored yeah now when was that uh trip you did to utah that we were on together oh boy that was 2021 yeah 2021 I think. Cause that's the same year that I moved to North Carolina. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was cool. So that's the first time we met in

person, but yeah, I'm still, you, you got my wife to handle a wild tarantula. That was a feat, man. That's the one thing she was just never comfortable with, were big spiders. And then I look over and Rob's like helping her hold one. I'm like, what's going on here? Pretty, pretty awesome. So that was cool. Something about the way that I talk about animals gets to people like that. I can't tell you how many people who I've done programs for who are like, I've been afraid of snakes my whole life.

And then, you know, 30 minutes later, they're holding a corn snake or a ball python. They're like, I just, I wasted my whole life. These things are awesome. Yeah. Yeah. You were, you have, you have the touch, man, for sure. Just something like that. Make people feel comfortable.

I mean, you're just a personable guy, you know, they just trust you and know, Hey, if Rob's doing this, it's good to go. So yeah, maybe most of the time, I know that when we were out there in Utah, I saw one of the, um, the sun spiders, the camel spiders. And I was like, Oh, soul fuge. I can pick that up. And I like went right over to it and the thing like grabbed me real quick. And I was like, Oh, can't do that.

I guess I'd forgot. I didn't know that know that was it up up on that hillside yeah yeah and i was i was a ways away from people because i was gonna like scoop it up and bring it over to you guys but it was trucking and yeah they're fast made a mistake i made a mistake yeah uh bobby pebbles has also hiked that hillside that That's where we found the spec. And, um, we found a liar snake on there. The, when last year, when Rob and Eric and a bunch of guys came out, it was, yeah. Dustin. I'm very jealous. Yeah.

Did I forget somebody? Um, anyway. What did you say? You said Eric. You, Eric, Dustin. Nipper. Nipper., Dustin. Nipper. Nipper. Can't forget Nipper. Yep. So, yeah, good times.

But yeah, that trip that you guys came out for, I've forgiven Chris with the Gila incident. You guys found two Gilas. Yes. And I was driving down. We were about a half hour away and i said hey where are you guys i'll drive right to where you are and meet you and i probably could have seen those helas but yeah chris did not respond to my message and i should have known to text aspen but you know yeah so learn the hard way but we found two last year. So I was going to say you guys found two last year. So made up for it. Yeah. All is, all is forgiven, but yeah,

but it was a lot of fun herping with you guys for sure. I kind of invited myself on that one. Cause I heard Keith was coming over and I'm like, Oh, Keith McPeak's coming. Okay. Well, Hey, would it be all right if I head down around the same time? Chris is like, yes. And then, uh, that was cause the original, uh, trip was planned for like 2018 or some, sometime earlier. And then Keith couldn't make it. And I'm like, do you guys care if I still come down? Cause I had taken work off and I was all ready to come. And they're like, sure. So I went out with Chris and Aspen. We found that same Gila. So we found it this last year.

That was the third time because you guys found it. Right, I was going to say, the first one was a repeat for the third time that you've seen it, right? Yeah. It's a neat looking one. Yeah. It doesn't seem too worse for wear at this point. I mean, he looks a little older, He's got, he's got two words for where at this point he is.

I mean, he looks a little older, but yeah, he's still still trucking. So yeah, he, he looked a little skinny the first, well, he looked okay.

Yeah. But he has that kind of key pattern on his head and neck. So, you know, we're like, Hey, this is key. So yeah, that's a great, great place.

I love Herpin St. George. It's a lot of fun. So, yep. Well, it seems like you've done quite a bit of Herpin since you moved. You're in South Carolina? North Carolina. North Carolina. Okay.

One of the Carolinas. Yeah, I mean, the weather here is great. The last year, well, when I moved down here, I was like, man, I heard that you can herpy around here, so I'm going to do that. And then so when I first moved here, I was like, my goal is to just find at least one snake every month. And there's only been one month since I moved down here that I haven't done that. Wow. But last year, every month we found a snake. I found my January snake so far this year, I'm still working on my February one and I'm

running out of time. It's very frustrating, but weather's supposed to be decent this weekend. So I'm going to try and get out there, but yeah, I love, uh, herping was what I was able to do first because I wasn't allowed to keep snakes when i was a kid and so uh i've always had a deep need to just see snakes out in the wild and so when i came out here and i was like oh man there's way more variety of species you can see lizards here because coming from massachusetts there's no lizards there's like you know you see two snake species most of the time it's like garter snakes and water snakes and that's about it, unless you hit very specific areas. So my job has me outside a lot. So when I'm doing pest control inspections for people's homes, I'm like, I got to check under this board real quick. I got to

look under your downspouts real quick. There's a log over there. I'm checking for termites. Let me just roll this real quick. So I get a lot of herping done coincidentally on the clock and, and I'm doing inspections for people, but I see a lot of snakes while I'm doing it. So, yeah, that's cool. That's it.

Yeah. You gotta, gotta make it make do where you can. Right. If I gotta be out there anyway. Yeah. Yeah. Why not?

That's cool. So how's the herping community out there? You just mainly solo or do you find, have you found some, some fellow herpers out there? Uh, I know a few people kind of local to me who, who are herpers. Um, Trace Harden is close by. We have gone out once, but we haven't gone out again. He's a super, he's super busy all the time and I always hate bothering him, but he he's awesome I've known him for over a decade he's awesome his buddy uh Thomas uh TCR herps on Instagram he is an incredible herper like he is light years ahead of me when it comes to all the stuff out here because he's just he's

in the area and he's driving and he's better at road cruising and all that stuff so he sees so many amazing things I'm jealous and that's cool he's uh put me to like general areas for a couple spots and so he's just like awesome but most of the time i honestly just go by myself and um or go with my partner kristen and just like you know trek around do a little hike look in these areas try and find where things kind of end up. And I find that it's easier for me to just go out on my own and, you know, figure things out. Yeah. That's awesome.

When you can herp with your partner as well. That's, that's pretty cool. Yeah. She loves the salamander. So as long as there's some salamander thing going on there, she's down. Yeah. She wouldn't enjoy Utah much. We got a whole one species out here. She likes the other stuff too,

but her heart is with the salamanders. Yeah. Gotta have your favorites, right? What's the coolest thing you've found out there so far? Coolest thing that I've found um in north carolina i went to emerald isle which is on the coast and there's a park out there called the croatan and it's a really really big park and we found a eastern chain king out there And the thing was on death's door. It was like all bunged up. It was in shed. The thing was,

you know, malnourished, but I was, that's the first time I found a, a wild King snake, you know, East coast. And I was just like over the moon,

just super hyped. We, we, it was kind of cold out. We had road crews for like two hours. Didn't see a thing. And we got out, we're watching the sunset.'re like oh man this is

such a bummer and i'm just like it looks like there'd be a snake right here and then i see the tail end of it going down into some roots of grass and i like grabbed it and i was like i'm not letting go i'm not it's coming back out one way or the other that's awesome so that i think that was the coolest thing i found but then i've also also found anerythristic worm snakes, which is pretty cool. I've seen two or three of them since I've been here because they're usually like a dark brown, black color on top. And then they usually have a red stomach. And I found two or three of them that are all white bellied and they're not in shed. They're like just shed, white bellies so that's

that was pretty cool oh that's cool yeah worm snakes i don't know if i've seen any worms worm snakes in i think we saw one in jersey did we is that what that was yeah oh yeah we did see a heck of a thing to try and take a picture of. Yeah, they're terrible. They're like, you know, this big. Barely tell that it's a snake. We thought we had a solid background for it. And so we put, you know, the cup over it and we're waiting for it to settle down. And we lift up the cup and everybody's ready to take a picture and it's not there. And we're like, we're like sifting through.

Oh, there was burrowed right down into it. It was pretty, pretty good escape artists there. Yeah. That's funny. It was like solid surface, but there was a leaf litter pile on top. And so, yeah, it was like, okay, it'll be safe. And it was, but it was just below a half inch leaf litter on the rock or whatever. But yeah. Yeah.

It was pretty, they are tough to get a photo of. I'll give you that. Yeah. The, the, I'm, I'm guessing I'm thinking blind snakes. I've seen a bunch of. I'll give you that. I guess I'm thinking blind snakes. Those guys in Australia, they smell horrible. They don't stop

moving. We had one on a tin sheet and it was just like a treadmill. It was just sitting there trying to go somewhere and it was going nowhere, but it was moving the whole time was pretty funny but yeah although your small cow king uh was like that too and yeah it drove me insane for about 45 minutes they would not stop moving i can't lie that was that was kind

of entertaining to watch but yeah yeah young young snakes snakes and certain species are just, yeah, almost impossible to photograph. You need some, like, ice or something to cool them down. Cool them down. Yeah. Or be happy with, fortunately, I think the picture I'm most happy with because of their pattern is one where actually that movement is happening, but it actually just sort of blurs out and looks super cool. But you can still tell the functionality of it. Yeah. That's awesome.

That's cool. Yeah, I don't know. You're still keeping herps. You got your scrubs and some other stuff. Those going well? Your project's doing well? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I've bred scrubs and some other stuff. Are those going well? Are your projects doing well? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I've bred scrubs twice now since I've moved down here.

I bred Janet, my Prada line barnac, the year that I moved down here, so 2022. And then last year, I bred a wild-caught female barnac to the wild-caught male that I've got. And so I produced the the one clutch 2022 one clutch 2023 um this year i've already got them kind of together and i've seen one lock but usually the females don't start cycling for me until april may is when they like start to go into their cycle so i'm not really looking at anything right now as as like definitive until we get closer to may june is when we start getting towards seeing where eggs are going so very cool yeah and i got corn snakes and bloods and short tails and yeah a lot of stuff nice branchless that's cool

yeah or the the uh there was a lot of excitement around your barnax are they still still people still pretty excited for those and yeah yeah i mean there's i think that there was only a few people in the u.s that bred barnax last year me and steven kush i think and then uh the year before i think the same thing and then steven produced the highland scrubs last year and there was another person who produced Highlands last year as well. There's there's a lot of buzz around the Barn-X. People love them. I think that once people see the Highlands more, I think that they'll get more attention because they're just as pretty as the Class of Lepus, in my opinion. It's just people don't know what they are, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. That's how I guess I've always found that struggle with carpets as well. Like people know carpet Python, but they don't know the different subspecies species that, you know, in the complex. So probably the same for the scrub people too. People have heard of a scrub Python, but they don't know there's all are different species. Okay. Like, yeah, exactly. And there's probably more to be described and yeah, properly separated out and stuff. I know there's the, the two in Australia, the kind of the ones up in the Northern Cape and then more towards cans down the, the bottom of the Cape,

but I haven't seen the Northern ones yet. Just the, the Southern ones around cans. We've seen handful of those, but that's all. I was going to ask if you didn't see any up North, huh? Not in the iron range. No, we didn't see. No, just, just in the table lands. And they're more of a lavender faded. Yeah. Yeah. They're really pretty kind of honey colored really nice looking um my buddy uh steve has some over in south australia we were just at his house on the last you know in october when i went over and um yeah they're beautiful snakes those

just really kind of i don't know iridescent tones and you know the the honey color i took a i'll have to send you guys a picture i took took a couple pictures of his captives out in the sunlight and stuff but yeah they're just beautiful snakes hell yeah yeah and you know with with everything with uh you know new guinea and kind of that you know everything in the northern cape is pretty much the same as in southern new guinea so it'll be interesting to see how that shakes out, if they'll be aligned with some of those Southern, you know, Aru types or not. If they do group that into the same species, then a lot of people are about to have some illegal snakes. Even when there's, whenever they put in big snakes, they always put in King Ornai, even though they're generally not in the U.S.

They're on a bunch of states as banned, even though they're not here. So if they group them with that, it's like Southerns are one of the most common scrubs that are bred in the U.S. Well, I think that dividing line will exclude – I think King Hornai will still be a thing. Yeah, we still won't have any of those. But kind of that Northern Cape species, I don't know how that will relate to the Southern New Guinea stuff. Yeah. So yeah, the, the King Horney are South of that, that biogeographical barrier. I think as far as I know, I, I could be talking out my butt for sure. So yeah, if I haven't kept up with the, I don't know, for some reason, my interest kind of wanes as you leave Australia and enter New Guinea.

I mean, I'm fascinated by them. They're cool. I'd love to see them in the wild, but Australia is kind of where my heart and attention stays. So I don't know. I feel like the opposite. I'm like, I love all the stuff from Southeast Asia. And then as you get to Australia, I'm like, oh, those are cool. But it's like, it doesn't hold me as much as the stuff from Southeast Asia. So I don't know why. Yeah. It's, I guess, I guess I've always just

had that fascination with Australian reptiles and it's just always stuck. So yeah, to each their own, if we all like the same thing, it'd be pretty boring world. Really boring. Really, really boring. And I, I, I mean, I love all the reptiles boring really really boring and i i mean i love all the reptiles i'm fascinated and you know love to learn about them and there's probably a hundred different species i'd like to keep but you know you kind of have to focus and unless you want to be moving projects every other year or something but no yeah yeah well um why don't you kind of tell tell everybody where you fit into her culture maybe a little background and and uh then we'll get to fighting okay yeah i'm down uh so my name is rob christian originally i'm from new england and i have uh been a lifelong reptile

person when i was a kid you know before i could talk i was picking up snakes in my yard and from that point on that's the only thing i cared about 100 you know and uh so i spent a lot of time out my yard herping my dad is not from the u.s he's um from the caribbean and is just terrified of snakes. So that's like his worst nightmare is having a son who's like, only cares about snakes. But so, you know, I wasn't allowed to keep snakes when I was a kid.

I had, my mom had tarantulas when I was little. So I grew up with tarantulas. Then we got like frogs and lizards. And eventually I ended up getting some snakes down the road. And that's when like everything just like kind of exploded. My mother and I opened up an educational business where we did programs at schools, birthday parties, summer camps. We did that for seven or eight years.

We did the Boston Public Library system two or three times where we were doing like three shows a day for hundreds and hundreds of kids and um at the time uh that i think that was closer towards the end so i was probably like 20 years old when that when that happened we started it when i was like in elementary school elementary or middle school yeah so uh different when i was like 12 years old or so up until I was 21. And then, uh, she went to Arizona to, to do work out there. And so I was like, uh, in school and working at the time. So we shut the business down. Then, uh, I went to Maine to manage a reptile store. When that store closed, I went to a nerd and was doing sales and education and social media

at reptile distributors. I was there for five years and social media at new england reptile distributors i was there for five years and then i moved to north carolina and so uh yeah that's like the you know the little graph of where i've been and everything so uh yeah i mean i've always had a love for snakes and arachnids and you know know, creepy crawlies and all that stuff. So I, yeah, that's in a nutshell. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. It's a, I guess it seems, um, kind of the, the opposite of a lot of people where they start out, you know, liking rep, but then they keep them and then that gets them into herping, you know,

but rather you started out kind of more herping, you know, but rather you started out kind of more herping. And I guess maybe we all kind of herped a bit. That's a little toads and stuff in your yard. It's like I doing programs. I would get a lot of kids who are like, oh, I just, I like catching things in my yard. And you know, that's a lot of people's first little taste of it. And then society gets to you and says, no, put those things down.

They're gross. Leave them alone. Put them in the says, no, put those things down. They're gross. Leave them alone. Put them in the yard. Like don't touch them. And a lot of people just grow out of that and they're pushed out of that. And then there's some people like us who not quite, you know, like, no, I'm going to catch that. I'm going to jump in that pond and grab that turtle, you know? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think a lot of, a lot of dudes kind of leave reptiles in pursuit of women. You know, they, they get to that age where they're like, uh, these are blocking me from, you know, getting girlfriends or whatever. So I'll, I'll come back to them later or something. But yeah, I was, I was never one to let that

deter me. But I remember one time we were, we were on a date and we were hiking up this waterfall Canyon and, uh, and we found a rattlesnake just right on the trail there. And it, and it wasn't rattling or anything. Like it looked like it had had, you know, broken rattles, maybe gone through some, and I mean, this was a very popular hiking spot. So I'm like, yeah, I'm going to have to take this one home. I'm like, I asked my date, I'm like, can I borrow your sweater sweatshirt? She had like a sweatshirt tied around her waist. And she's like, um, what are you going to do with it? I'm like, you don't want to know. So I, I tied it off, made a little makeshift snake bag out of her sweatshirt and put it in there and, you know, brought it home and kept it for a few years until I found out it was illegal and gave

it away to, to somebody. But, uh, yeah, that was, uh, I, uh, always had snakes when, when I had, uh, my girlfriends, they'd come over and see the snakes or whatever, but yeah. Yeah. That's always just never been an option for me. Like this, the snakes are me. I am the snakes and there's no separating the two. I can't, I have a tough time thinking about things that are not snakes. Like when I was in elementary school and learning vocabulary words, I had to make them about reptiles, even if they weren't about reptiles to the point where like my teachers wrote home to my parents and they were like, we understand that Robert likes reptiles, but

like, he's got to write about something else. He has to understand that there's things outside of snakes. And I just, my brain couldn't do it. I was like, I don't know. For my, my elementary, uh, re you know, summer reading thing, they, you know, you do the reading challenge or whatever. Um, my dad brought home a herpetology textbook thinking it would slow me down or something. He said, I read the whole thing and I had like all my, my pets mapped out taxonomically and, you know, all the, all these, I was using all this terminology. He's like, what are you even talking about? I did the same thing. One book, you know,

for the summer reading, everybody's getting like a hundred books or something. Yeah. My parents did the same thing. They were like looking at all the age appropriate books and they're like, Robert's already reading like complex books about reptiles. Can he just write about that? Because these other books are like not at the same level. And the teachers were like, I guess. So that's what I wrote my book reports on was all the different field guides and, you know, books about, uh, you know, care and captive

keeping and stuff. Yeah. I still remember the, the elementary school library had, uh, one of Caulfield's books, uh, I think it was keeper in the kept. Um, but I do remember checking that out quite a few times and, you know, uh, copying some of the figures and things like that. Yeah. That kind of stuff. Yeah. Good stuff. Yep. I think, I think a lot of us have that in common where we just have that drive and nothing's going to dissuade us. Yeah. Cool. Well, um, I, I'm, I guess your, your background kind of leads us into, to the topic too, with your,. Rob came up with this topic about

are we obliged to educate the public? Rob Stone. Yeah. Rob S. And so he invited Rob C. Bobby Pebbles. The best nickname ever. Thank you, Schmitty. Bob Rock.

Bob Rock is a good one still, yeah. It's a little tougher than Bobby Pebbles, but Bobby Pebbles makes me laugh. So anyway, yeah. Rob Stone came up with the idea to talk about whether we're obliged to educate and how much education is helpful and that kind of idea. So we're going to fight about that today. So what better than Rob C to discuss that? So, so Rob and I'll go ahead and Rob S and I will go ahead and flip the coin to see who, who gets to fight you. And then we'll go from there.

So go ahead and call it Bob rock. It is heads. Wow. And then we'll go from there. So go ahead and call it Bob Rock. Heads. It is heads. Wow. On the coin toss. That's rare. Good job. What would you like to do?

I want to hear what you have to say, though. So there you go. You get to fight anyway. Okay. I think, yeah, sounds good to me. All right. Now, Rob C., let's have you call the next flip here, which was not a great flip. I'm going to go with Tails.

It is Tails. I'm a double loser today. The Robs have it. Let's go. You guys got it. Rob Power. Just Rob squared it. Yeah.

I'm used to Uston Power with dustin grahn but yeah all right so uh which side would you like to defend are you more pro education in your social media or um it's not what do you think honestly i could go either way on this one i think that i should argue the side that it doesn't always have to be educational because i think that that's going to be more challenging for me all right i like it i like it that's that's what this show is about seeing both both sides, right? So yes, sir. Okay. And then as the winner, the big winner of the coin flip, you get to decide if you go first or if you want me to lead us out. Um, how about this? I'll, I'll do, I'll do you an honor and I'll, I'll go first.

Oh, wow. It's a little bit harder. I think most of the guests find it harder to go first. And I think that I'll take that on. All right. You got it, man. Okay. All right. Perfect. So it's very fitting that we're talking about this topic on today, which is, hold on, let me look at the date, February 22nd, which is Steve Irwin's birthday.

Oh, whoa. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. And so we're talking about education and whether or not education always, or about, uh, communication with the public and whether our content always has to be educational. And there is like so much that, uh, Steve Irwin has done for education, uh, for reptiles in general. You know, most people, I would venture to say before Steve would have said that,

you know, crocodiles, kill them, get rid of them, alligators, any of them. They're big, nasty, they're mindless killing machines. Get rid of them. They're like this close to being jaws, you know, where everyone just hates them and can't stand them. And Steve had a way of, you know, educating and getting people interested in that sort of thing. And one of the things that I learned through doing education with the public is that the average person does not understand the things that we understand.

They have a very, very, very minimal understanding of the creatures that inhabit the world around them. And for a lot of people, you know, if you start saying the Latin name or talking about the natural habits right off the bat on things, you just lose people. They're not interested because it's not something that they can relate to in their life. You know, most people don't talk anything Latin period in any portion of their life, you know? And so, uh, one of the things that I look at when it comes to, uh, outreach and the content that we post is that we need to be able to reach people because if you don't reach people then there's uh no like you can have the most information on the planet on

a certain species but if you can't communicate that if you can't get people interested in that then it just goes to waste it's just gone you know yeah and so on steve erwin's birthday well you know i think that is very fitting because people look at him very fondly in the past. But if he were to come out today, I feel like he would not be looked on as kindly with how he handles some of the snakes, venomous snakes. He was free handling things very regularly, taking lots of liberties, highly toxic snakes. And that's something that, you know, I feel like I'm someone who looks fairly critically on those things as well, especially with the people nowadays and how they portray their content. But you can't deny that it gets people interested.

It gets the average person who knows nothing about snakes to look. And they might be looking just to see if this guy dies or not but yeah they're looking and and uh in the current uh social media economy that we're in attention is everything and if you can harbor attention uh you can get a message across and so i'll i'll pause there i'll let you have a rebuttal because I will keep topping on that. Yeah, no, I think that's a good way to start it out. And I agree. But I think it's hard for somebody like Steve Irwin or like yourself with so much passion and excitement about things, I think that's almost a form of education in and of itself, right? If somebody sees, okay, this guy loves these things, you know, there must be something interesting or special about them. I'm going to, I'm going to check that out, you know, or I'm going to, I'm going to learn more about that, you know, so it's really hard to, to kind of draw the line between, you know,

education, um, in, in so many different forms, I guess. So maybe it's cheating a little bit to say that, but I think, you know, that passion, you know, kind of educates people in a, in a way, you know, and I think you're right. I mean, most people could care less about a scientific name or, or the fact that there's more than one type of carpet Python or scrub by, you know, and so,, you know, that's I don't know, I guess I think, you know, there is that danger, danger, danger in the words of Steve Irwin to make things more about entertainment than education, you know, and I guess maybe it's my own fault because I was always drawn to programs that education, you know, and I, I guess maybe it's, it's my own fault. Cause I was always drawn to programs that are, you know, education oriented. Like I did enjoy Steve Irwin because he was showing Australian animals, Australian reptiles, which is my huge passion. And I'd be a little less excited when he was in Africa or somewhere else, you know,

I'm like, I mean, it's still cool, but, and I still like those, but you know, my, my main draw was because he was finding Australian reptiles. But the thing that kind of turned me off a little was how everything was overhyped. You know, everything was so dangerous or, you know, the thing that got me was when they were driving on a road and he's like, we could flip the vehicle at any moment. And I'm like, okay, okay. Enough with the over dramatization, you know, I, I guess I, you know, so, but, um, one of the shows I really liked was, uh,

Harry Butler. I don't know if you ever saw into the wild with Harry Butler. Um, it's kind of an old school one. And I remember seeing it like as a kid, well, maybe a, maybe a late teenager, but he was doing shows back in the 80s and maybe even, I mean, they look old today. So I bought the box set off of Amazon and it's pretty sweet, but he's like his Australian hat on and he'd throw his hat over a tiger snake and like pick up the tiger snake in his hat. And then he'd work it out and pin it, you know, and so he could show. And he's like no drama at all. It's like, this is a tiger snake. Look how beautiful he is.

Look at those fangs, you know, see the venom dripping or whatever. Just like no drama, no, you know, uh, flailing around and catching things and stuff, but you know, he could, he could catch stuff with the best of them for sure. But he was always really calm and like laid back. And I guess I really enjoyed that. And I guess I've always been kind of drawn to educational things because I have that thirst to learn, but I do appreciate that most people could care less. And I think if you can get them interested in something, they'll learn, you know, at least this is not a dangerous thing or this is not something to be scared of or whatever, you know. And when. Yeah, so I guess it's hard to to not educate people when you're passionate about something in some way. So maybe that's a little bit of a cheat, you're passionate about something in some way. So

maybe that's a little bit of a cheat, but I'm going to go that way over to you. Yeah, no, that, that makes a lot of sense. And, um, you know, there are always going to be people who are drawn to that more educational content. And when you, uh, look at how the internet is set up nowadays, where, you know, anyone who's got a phone can start making content about whatever they're interested in, you get all these different venues for people who are interested in those different things. And if you look at people like Clint's Reptiles, he is like educational. He is cut and dry. Yeah, he's a very educational guy. Um, and he does get a, a, a good amount of attention, right? Because he is educating people and he is, um,

you know, there is always going to be those people who seek out that kind of content. But if you take a look at the type of reach that he's getting, and then you take a look at the type of reach that he's getting and then you take a look at the reach from people who are going whoa and you know jump in and doing this and doing you know over uh you know being overly dramatic when it comes to those things the reach difference is huge and when you look at even things like um like you know we're talking about like the steve irwin show um you know the crocodile hunter they would put those you know the snake hissing over the you know the snake's not actually hissing but when it like whips real quick they'll throw a hiss in over it because it grabs your attention and and and gets you locked in on that moment where you know where he's holding it he's just

going okay it's dodging you know dipping he's doing what he's he's you know, where he's holding it, he's just going, okay, it's dodging, you know, dipping, he's doing what he's, he's, you know, what he does. But producers, editors, the people behind the scenes are going, okay, you know, the average person is going to get bored if they just see him, you know, tail it real quick and, and throw, you know, put it out there and just stand in front of it and talk for a second. You know, we have to think about, cause like when I think about things, I look at things like all of this through the lens of, uh, people who are trying to make content to reach other people. Uh, they're not trying to reach me because I'm going to go out and I'm going to seek out the information.

If it's in a book, in a library, I'm going to go out and I'm going to seek out the information. If it's in a book in a library, I'm going to go find it, right? Because I want that information. They want the attention of the person who's casually going by and they're going, oh, I don't really know anything about snakes. Let me take a look at this for a minute. And people who are strictly educational are not going to get that like you know you might get some people who trickle that in here and there but the people who uh you know get the view and the attention are the people who are you know putting in that or a rattlesnake when it's actually a cobra that's on the screen or you know the putting a kookaburra in the forest in africa it's all that sort of stuff and uh you know i i interviewed for a show that they

were trying to put together for the history channel uh where they're gonna send guys out to find the deadliest everything you know we're gonna send you to africa we're gonna send you to australia and blah blah blah and you know the questions that they're asking me in those things is like, how crazy are you going to go when you get, you know, out there, when you see, what do you, do you consider yourself a risk taker? Would you pick it up even if it has the potential to bite you? And me as a person, I'm not like that. And so I was, that's why, you know, didn't end up going any further than the second interview. But I was like, I'm not going to go crazy. I will make it interesting, but I'm not a super risk-taking person. I can make it interesting even if I am not touching the animal. I have got that where I can just like get a little bit of people's attention. But that's not what they're looking for. They are – they're in a production team. They want stuff that's going to grab people's attention.

They want to see someone get wrapped up by a giant snake. They want to pitch some guy getting eaten by an anaconda. And think about the number of people that tuned into that even though nothing happened. The amount of people – I had family members who have never touched a snake in their life who reached out. Hey, did you hear the guy that was going to get eaten by the anaconda? And then I roll my eyes and I'm going, no. And then listen to interviews of him afterwards and he's like, well, they said it was going to be an educational program. I signed a contract and then they told me that I'm going to get eaten alive. And they said if I dip out now that I'm going to get sued and I'm never going to work in

the industry again. So, you know, all of these different things are going into the background of the bigger production content that the average person sees. And all of that starts with grabbing attention and know, uh, not with the education. And there are people who are good at doing both the education and, uh, grabbing the attention. Uh, one of the people, I think it was like Savannah over at Gatorland. She is a super energetic person, really gets you in there, but she knows so much about crocodilians. and I really admire that about her. And there's not a lot of people that can bridge the gap like that.

You know, either people can be really educational and really reckless and whatever, or they can be really educational. It's not a lot of people that can bridge the gap to make it educational in both. And so I think I'll pass the baton onto you for that one. Sounds good. Yeah. I, I guess, um, I would probably cite, uh, uh, planet earth is probably one of the hallmark things that educated people and got them also excited because, you know, honestly, like I, I love Steve Irwin and I love all his contributions, but I did not like that dramatization and the hype and all that kind of stuff that came with it.

And, and not, you know, Steve Irwin was fine, but everybody that came after that, trying to replicate that and trying to seeing that as a, as a mechanism for success, you know, you've got to be overdramatic and crazy and jumping and grabbing and things like that. And then you get people like Austin Stevens. It was just kind of almost comical how they've got the camera set up so it's like you can rotate him as he's jumping on a cobra in the lake or something. It's just kind of ridiculous. But I mean, honestly, I still watched him because he's still chasing reptiles in the wild and I thought it was cool. So, you know, compared to like

maybe Marco Shay, where you might not even see the animal he's tracking down because it was the real deal, you know, like, yeah. So this is interesting, right? Because a week ago we found out that season one, which is the original 13 episodes of O'Shea's Big Adventure, which I'm sure we had seen at the time. I remember all of it sort of hit that way. But at least in the U.S., you can buy it for not that much to view it on Amazon Prime.

I think in the U.K UK it's actually free, but such it is. So I've done that. I'm halfway through it at this point. And the funny thing is the drama doesn't occur, which maybe actually makes sense if you listen to Mark enough or met him. But all the drama that happens in his show is his interpersonal relationships and or conflict with other people, the local scientist whose toes he's stepping on or where his approach or his methodology they don't like. So when he's in Brazil and they're looking for the Bushmaster, it's, oh, well, they want to be able to grab it first or they're not going to keep going on the expedition with them or, you know, whatever. Oh, they're uncomfortable with how he's interacting with the animal. I mean, heck, you know, it's a real Pine Barren Street there, Justin, but that sort of thing.

So it's super interesting that the drama in those shows, because to your point, right, his key principle was that there would be no staged animals. There are some captive animals that are presented as being captive, particularly before they would find something. But that was kind of the key effort of the endeavor. And in fact, the one I just watched on Splendid Leaf Frogs, you know, they failed to find, they could hear it calling, they failed to find it. They come back to where they had initially been looking and the guy has a pair in a bucket that then go to the Manchester Zoo. But it was sort of a half. It was honestly presented.

It wasn't that he had found them. It was sort of the additional conflict of, well, you went to this other place, didn't find, you know, you heard a calling but didn't locate it when it started raining, all this stuff. You come back and, well, here they are in a bucket. But it wasn't, oh, look, they're just behind the hacienda here. But at the same time, there's a ton of interpersonal conflict with like, oh, Mark is aggravating the local scientists who don't feel like he's properly respecting them. Yeah, right. I guess, you know, you're going to find entertainment. And I think maybe planet Earth did that by just showing the dynamic lives of these animals.

And, you know, I, maybe, I mean, honestly, a lot of reptiles are kind of boring. They'll just like an ambush predator. They're just going to sit there for, you know, you're going to get some cool footage if you catch that, you know, 20 seconds of excitement and drama when they strike it, pray and maybe hit it or something and you know and and like you know showing the rattlesnakes uh sitting in ambush waiting for a rodent to pass by and and filming that was pretty amazing and i mean the uh the galapagos iguana sequence is some of the

best wildlife documentary footage i've ever seen and And that just had, had my jaw on the floor as, you know, an adult, like I'd seen lots of, lots of nature documentaries. And that was the first, just, just jaw dropping, amazing footage, you know, and I didn't even, you know, you didn't even really care what the species were, but you got educated as what was going on with those animals, you know? And so I do think that there is a way to educate and still entertain because these animals are fascinating.

You know, they, they do so many interesting behaviors and there's a guy in India, um, that's a photographer and I, I can't remember his name. I feel bad. I probably should have thought about him, but he just came into my mind as being somebody who, you know, puts out on social media and, and he shows their natural behaviors and you're just watching like, wow, that is cool. It's these, uh, Indian, some sort of Indian lizard, but they've got these big do laps and they flare them out, you know, bright blue or something.

And they're like jumping and he's got a couple of males fighting, you know, on video and stuff. And it's like jumping and he's got a couple males fighting, you know, on video and stuff. And it's really, really pretty cool stuff. So, um, I, I, I've always been the opinion, like let the animals do the talking. Like I try to just film nature happening and then, you know, showing it and, you know, on a YouTube video and granted, you know, I've got hundreds of views or something, whereas, you know, Chandler getting bit by a Cobra probably has millions of views, you know, that kind of thing. So people like drama, but also for the most part, people are kind of stupid and they probably need more education rather than entertainment, you know, we're constantly entertaining ourselves

rather than learning something. So I apologize if, uh, you, if, if the listener falls into that category, but hopefully not, hopefully you're, I think that this is the listens to this podcast. Yeah. Self-selecting for a higher brow.

You know, if you're listening to our voices right now, yeah. Yeah. You're probably not a part of that group, but, but I, I also like,

uh, I, I know a guy that was that group, but I also like, uh, I, I know a guy that was kind of behind the scenes with that, uh, venom show that bar check did where he was in Australia looking for venomous snakes to milk, to sell the venom or whatever. And that almost had the opposite effect.

I think people realize that's not how things are done. And just, it was just too much of a false premise and, and set up. And it just didn't, I think because of that, it didn't take off. And my friends,

he had all the proper gear because some of his animals were the animals that he found in the wild, you know? And so they were definitely planted and staged and things for him to come upon. Now they did find a few wild things and that was kind of the objective, but they also always had something in reserve for him to find. Yeah. A big, you know, a giant pet snake that was just crawling across, you know, in broad daylight kind of thing.

And, uh, for, for Brian to jump on, but, uh, he said he had like the giant, uh hoop uh bags to for snake captures that make it very safe and you know and and the producers were like no no no give him a give him a like a little pillowcase yeah that they'll barely fit in and i mean you can see him struggling just to just to tie it off you know once he gets the snake inside of it it's like like, and my friend's like, that's kind of dangerous for no reason. Like nobody, you know, I guess there's drama in trying to get a giant venomous snake into a small pillowcase, but like what really, that's what we're, that's what we've, we've become, you know, this is where our society is leading, you know, just entertainment, just for entertainment sake. And frankly, I mean, I think it's just contributing to the dumbening of America, but I don't know.

That's, uh, that's kind of the reason I think we need educational content, at least to some extent. And you're right i mean maybe for the most for the masses you know throwing scientific names out there or just showing the animals doing what they do is not enough to grab their attention but hopefully you know i hear a lot of people that are pretty deep into herpetoculture talk about how steve irwin brought him in you know that was one, that's the person who made the difference. So for every slack jaw yokel out there, like, that's like, Oh, wow, he got bit, you know, that kind of looking for the drama that way, there's hopefully more that are saying, wow, those animals are fascinating. And Steve Irwin's a hero and a legend, you know, he brought me into the hobby

and, you know, that's kind of, you know, what, what I hope is the, the outcome, but, you know, he brought me into the hobby and, you know, that's kind of, you know, what, what I hope is the, the outcome. But, you know, you see, see things like turtle man and it's kind of just stupid shows, but yeah. As a quick interjection that I think Rob will appreciate. So this is a story from 22 years ago, I got a, there was a really nice, like three and a half foot wild blood python with a beautiful stripe, like a tri-stripe look to it that, uh, I had seen I had on a, from a West coast vendor that must've just got it from cam, you know, just as sort of a mix. And it was not something they would usually have. Right. Um, but your story about with Brian and the tiny bags is, uh, so as I say, three and a half foot and i got a nine by nine by nine box and it was in a bag in a nine by nine by nine box so it would come it would come on a snow you know a day with snow

and i'm thankfully there wasn't a heat obviously filled the entire mass of that box there's no heat pack or anything like that so it was a cold uh cold day with snow and um i pulled it out so it just all sort of unfurled you know open the bag and the whole thing you know jack the snake spring snakes yeah and so i was holding it like this and you can feel it's cold but you see the little eye you know i see the eye twitch and i pull my head to the side and the head goes over the shoulder and it was like this is an experience that i won't for you know in 22 years later i haven't forgotten so yeah certainly something but you know in terms of what you can put into what size bag and or box if i

guess if you have patience i have had to put some things in some bags that were very risky not venomous stuff but other things and uh let me tell you i wish there were some security camera footage of it because oh my goodness you ever try to get a croc monitor into a pillowcase to ship it man yeah no man no no you trim the claws and you put them in and then they just, like it's nothing, they still just go right through. I'll tell you, you never want to get the call from FedEx. Right, well, I think Chris Foley, this was an Owen story from 2011 or whatever, that they had bought both a croc monitor and a white lip or something like that. And yeah, they wound up with a box, a bloody box with a croc monitor in it. Mm-hmm. Oh, they shipped it together. Yeah.

Two different bags, but that didn't do much. That doesn't matter. Yeah, that doesn't. Yeah. No. Oh, God. That's terrible. Yeah, man.

Yeah. Well, to that point of like, you know, think if you had had that on camera, that miss right there, you could have had 10 million views on YouTube. You know, that equates to roughly like $30,000 off of a silly video of a blood python. I'm just saying. All jokes aside uh i think that for for a lot of people uh the foot in the door is yahoos and people who just grab your attention and they go wow that cobra is insane and then they uh they go i don't really know anything about cobras and then they like look a little bit deeper into things and they go, oh, wow, there's so much more information out there than just the thing that grabbed my attention initially

than just seeing someone getting wrapped up by a big reticulated python more than watching somebody lose their finger to a cobra bite. There is all of this other stuff. And, you know, the thing that got them in the door is not necessarily the thing that they identify with their whole way through the hobby and the industry and their journey with reptiles. It was just the thing that kind of set that domino to fall to get people in. And, um, one of the things that I've seen a lot with, uh, kids who I have met through, um, doing educational programs or being at nerd and giving tours and things like that is that you get some, uh, kids who are like, oh man, I love this guy. Cause he just like picks up cobras and blah, blah blah um but for every child you get

like that i would get like five or ten that would come in and just be like oh emily from snake discovery is the coolest person i i've ever heard of she's just she just has really cool animals she gives you lots of information and i'll just sit there and just watch her all day and so uh that educational portion will get some people in the door. And then, uh, the, you know, the average person or the person who may not, might not have been interested otherwise gets caught by the other person, you know? And, and that's one of the things that I bring up when people talk about, uh, Steve Irwin is like, uh, yeah, he free handled things. He, uh, you know, took a lot of liberties with animals that I wouldn't be comfortable doing that with. But the amount of reach that he got from those sort of things, people didn't just say, okay, Steve Irwin is the only thing I'm going to know about crocodiles or about, you know, any of the number of things that he was showcasing,

a lot of people went on to learn more about those things. And they still appreciated him for the entertainment value of things. But they learned much more than that, as opposed to if they never was exposed to that or they were just exposed to a documentary, it might not have piqued their interest to learn more about things. And I did a talk for the New England Herp Society. Man, it had been, I don't know, 10 years ago now or something, eight, 10, something like that. And one of the things

I was telling people is that, you know, I have cultivated my life, my social media, my relationships, everything for me is centered around reptiles. And so people who know me know about reptiles by force. They don't have an option. They're going to learn things one way or the other, because that's all I talk about. That's all I post about. That's, you know, that is where my mind is at 24 seven. And, you know, the people who are on my friends list or the people who follow me are interested in that. But there are millions of homes in the country that have a pet leopard gecko who have a pet bearded dragon who, you know, that's just like their little pet,

their kid got interested in it. They did a little bit of research. They got one. And one of the things I was saying at that meeting is that people need to share that with other people because the people who see my stuff are know what they're going to get but if your neighbor from a you know in your neighborhood group posts up a picture of their bearded dragon that is going to trigger questions and that will get more people involved and and get more people involved and, and get more people interested. And it doesn't have to be educational. You could say, this is my buddy spike. He's a bearded dragon, you know? And, and let me tell you when I would do educational programs, um, you know, I could bring out, I don't know, uh, something really cool. I could bring out a Spolotes, right? Spolotes Pilatus, these tiger rat snakes, big, beautiful, awesome, slow tongue flicks, puffed out throat.

I'm like, this thing is so cool. They come from South America. They climb all in the trees. If you look at the shape of their body, they're so cool. People are like, oh, okay, okay. I bring out an albino rosy boa. Hey, this is an albino rosy boa. Its name is Mac and Cheese.

Boom. Every single person in that room fell in love. They know what Mac and Cheese is. They like the name of that animal. They are now invested in that animal. And I didn't teach them anything about it. You know, afterwards, I'll go through and teach them about it. But to get that attention, to get people in the door, they need to have something that they can relate to them.

Because I think for a lot of people, the educational aspect of things is they can't relate to it. If they watch someone going out and grabbing a taipan outside of Australia, there's no frame of reference for them. They're going, okay, he's saying the snake is deadly it is deadly maybe it isn't deadly most people don't know you know you can grab a brown snake and tell them it's a taipan and they're not gonna know they don't they have no idea but you know when i would bring out a uh a turtle and tell people that his name is michelangelo and he's a mutant ninja turtle, every person in there goes, oh, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, I am invested in whatever else you have to say right now. It doesn't matter what I have to say, but they're there and they're

invested. And that's when you can get to the education portion of it. And you don't even have to go crazy with it. You know, most people don't know that a turtle shell is part of their body i can't tell you how many people who i would bring a turtle out and i'd say hey look i i would usually bring a a specimen of a you know carapace so you can see the inside of it say look at this this is the inside of a real turtle shell and you can see the spine and the ribs. It's just like you. You've got all those same things too. And they go, oh, I thought that it was just like a hermit crab where they just came right out of their shell. People have no frame of reference.

And so getting them in the door, getting something that they can relate to, something that they can hold on to engages them. And then they can educate later and they a lot of times they will sometimes they won't you know if you look at the 10 million views on a cobra bite video not every one of those people is going to go out and educate them educate themselves about anti-venom and neurotoxic venom and you know all these different things that are very interesting to us. But they will watch that and maybe learn a little bit of something about snakes on the way. And so I think that that education, really, we need to find ways as people who are passionate about these animals, we need to find ways to get a connection with the average person because they have no frame of reference. I can't even tell you the amount of people who would see a python and they're like,

is that a snake? They're like, you bring out a blue-tongued skink and they're like, that's a snake. And you're like, no, it's got legs. Look at the little legs. Oh yeah, it does kind of have legs on there. I had no idea. You know, they're like, what kind of creature is that? I don't know because they just have no idea they have no frame of reference and that's where the

the entertainment portion comes in because uh entertainers people who are truly good at entertaining make it relatable for the people who are watching it and that gets way more people to come in and to be interested than just strictly being educational. And that's one of the things that I had a really tough time learning because when I was just starting out doing educational programs, I'd be like, this is a Solomon Island Granboa, a Kendoia Paulsoni. These come from over here and they get this big and they eat primarily – and my mom would tell me all the time, please please dumb it down, dumb it down, dumb it down, dumb it down, stop. No Latin names, give it a name, talk to the people. And you know, that's one of the things I had to learn really young was make it relatable. And once you can do that, that is what will get you over all the other hurdles of all the other things that are going on. People can be afraid,

people can be apprehensive, people can have like, you know, all of these things going on, but if you can entertain them a little bit and you can make it relatable to them, you can actually get to that portion where you can educate people. Yeah. That's, that's a great point. I mean, I, it's, it's, it's hard to be scared of a snake named macaroni and cheese. You can't. You can't. I'm just saying.

I've won over so many old women with that one. I'm just saying. Yeah. They say it's mac and cheese or more recently, palmetto corn snake, funfetti. Boom. Everyone sold funfetti cake. I love funfetti cake. I'm touching that snake i want to

take one home today yeah yeah that's uh and and i i do you know i i fully appreciate that we need to have that and you know um what's the word the the the excitement that passion that uh yeah you know just the entertainment side of things. But, uh, you know, we, we also, I think, you know, there needs to be a balance. There needs to be the, the, you know, the more nerdy source or that more nerdy place to go. And, uh, yeah, the, the one will get them in the door. And I think there's definitely a place for, for that, for sure. I mean, that's, you've got to entertain the masses and hopefully it's in like, like Steve or when it's in the mind of, you know, let's, let's conserve these and let's,

let's appreciate them and let's respect them for what they are and not just, you know, kill them because we're scared of them, that kind of thing. And I think that's what he did very well is he made people aware of them and showed them that you could interact with them without getting killed and without, you know, whatever. Although he eventually got killed by something along that line, which is, you know, kind of the downside of that. But, you know, he gave his life for his passion and that excitement. Now the, you know, the, I think at least some of us need to be putting out that high, highly educational content. So once they get their foot in the door, they have somewhere to go, you know? So, and then that's kind of, you know, the reason that I, I, I like to write books,

you know, that I, I, I appreciate YouTube videos and, you know, a website or something like that, but they kind of come and go and, and, you know, it's, it's kind of fleeting and, and sometimes it's hard to find some of that content. And, and, uh, so, but a book, you know, that's a physical thing. You can buy it off Amazon, you know, and you have it on your shelf and you know where it is for the most part. Yeah. Unless you loan it to somebody and they keep it. But so as long as, you know, people like us when we were kids and we were fat, you know, wanting to read herpetology textbooks or whatever, you know, we had somewhere to go for that information. And I think that's kind of the danger of where, you know, the entertainment side makes a lot more money. It's a lot more fun.

It's a lot easier. You know, you don't have to put much work or effort into it. You just pull out a snake and say, Hey, look at this, you know, look at what I got. But, you know, in, in some, some respects, you're kind of like that weird dude walking down the street with a snake around your neck, you know, and no shirt on or something like getting for shot. Always a berm. Why is it always a Burmese python? Why is it always a Burmese python?

Yeah. And I mean, I was I was that kid. I grew out of it, but I was that kid on my neck walking in the our little little towns parade on the 4th of July or whatever. So we, uh, but, but I do think there is that responsibility to have, you know, some educational content, even if you're, you know, mostly entertainment, you're still throwing in tidbits of, of, of education, right? You gotta have some aspect of that, or what's the point, you know, for just wowing them with, with exciting flashy snakes. But, um, so, you know, I, I always try to have, like you said, you, you've got to know your audience and, and, you know, with, when my kids

were in, in elementary school, I would come and do snake shows, but just for their classes. Right. So I would only come if my kid was in their class and I've had teachers approach me. I'm like, sorry, I just don't have time unless it's going to, you know, my kids are going to be there and help me out and I get to see them and, and they get to kind of share this passion with me kind of thing. Um, but yeah, we, we, uh, we just have a few factoids or whatever about, you know, snakes or in general. And, you know, I love pulling out a pygmy Python. Hey, you know, is it possible that I'm holding in my one hand a Python, you know, this is a, this is a full grown, you know, this is as big as they get Python. So not all Pythons

are huge, you know, that want to eat your dog or something. So, you know, have something that they could learn and take away from that. So, but so there's, there should be, should be something educational in there and, and hopefully, uh, many sources of, of that kind of Uber nerdy place. Cause that's where I like to go. One of the things, uh, I'll, I'll touch on real quickly is the, um, do you use Wayback Machine? Yeah, yeah. Okay. I was like that's the – it doesn't get everything, but it gets a lot of good stuff. Yeah.

If you're listening to this, Wayback Machine just saves – it's an internet archive and it just saves websites throughout time. And you can see a lot of really cool stuff on there. You can go back and look at old – I go on there and look at the old nerd website back in the day where I remember going on there and seeing a Bumblebee ball python for $25,000 and all this crazy – croc monitors for $200 and all this crazy stuff. One thing that doesn't do great sometimes is pictures, but I tell you what, Robin, I know you'll know this animal, the tri-stripe blood Python on the financial times, the pink newspaper. So that was how I wound up starting to talk to Kara. Um, was I had seen that, you know, when it was live or whatever. And, uh, I think she had just gotten up there and,

um, Kevin was like I absolutely don't want to talk to some blood python nerd here you go yeah that sounds about right unfortunately it had already been sold but yeah that one you can still see on there was

the genesis for that for sure damn that's awesome yeah man that's it's fun to go see some of that old content i think you can even get some of the old uh like forum uh posts and you know discussion if it was yeah if it was like visible through without having to log in yeah a lot of those are still saved so i think like ball pythons.net, you can, you can still see some of their old forms cause you didn't have to log in to see their forms. A lot of nerds stuff I think was behind a login. So I don't remember whether or not you can see some of that stuff, but yeah. Yeah. Cool. Cool tool for sure. Yeah. And some, I mean, I still remember some of those, uh, website, like Python Pete's website.

I was on there all the time. He kind of was the inspiration for my own website having the What's New page and stuff because I always want to see what was happening and what was new and stuff. I love the pattern wallpaper from the animals that he had on there. Yeah. I remember – this is like just a little aside because now we're getting off topic but uh back before i kept snakes i was like just enamored with blood pythons and like vpi was like the ones who had blood python stuff and so we didn't have any internet at my house but my mom worked at a hospital and so she had access to the internet so i was like can you go to vpi you know i go to their website and she printed out their pages

about blood python i taped them up on my wall and had like the strip of patterning down the side of the web page and i was just like read that back and forth 150 times and yeah i think vPI is a great example of, you know, kind of bringing that, uh, um, educational aspect, you know, to the forefront and being, you know, like, oh, they're kind of up here on that upper echelon. I want to be like the Barkers someday, that kind of thing. And, you know, we need those instead of just a guy who churns out a bunch of baby ball pythons. You know, we need some kind of heroes that have that educational standard, that know stuff and that are excited and passionate about it. And that's kind of a rare mix, I think, in, in herpetoculture, cause that's usually reserved for, you know, a university or a scientist or something. So, and they don't have a ton of interaction generally with, you know, the herpetocultural, uh, population, which is kind

of who we're, we're talking to, or who probably listened to this more so, but, um, I don't know. I'm trying to think if we still have those, you know, hopefully we can kind of be that for, for the next generation or, you know, get them excited about learning about these things and seeing them in, in the natural environment. And, uh, that's kind of like, I guess my goal in, in posting videos or content is try to say, okay, you know, these are the things you can find out there. These are the things that are waiting out there for you to, to discover and see cool behavior and things like that. So I don't know. That's, I think, obviously, I really enjoy education.

I think education is very important. And the things that we don't know probably far outweigh the things we do know about reptiles in general, you know, especially when thinking about reptiles in the wild and what they do day to day. You know, we have a very limited understanding and knowledge. And I think if everybody put kind of that effort towards discovery or have that kind of research-minded attitude about chasing snakes in the wild, maybe it'd be less of like a checklist and more just kind of watching things and maybe making, uh, you know, citizen herpy, herper, uh, citizen scientist type observations that could potentially be published. You know,

I don't know. That's my dream. That's my goal as a retiree, just to sit around and watch rattlesnakes or something. I would love to do that. I feel, I don't know. I feel like I'm not smart enough to publish a paper. So I'm always just like, when I think about like people who publish papers, I'm like, they know things I'm just out here looking at lizards, man, come on.

That's where you're wrong. I think, you know, if you can make an observation or see something unique or find a pattern or things like that, I mean, granted there is kind of a structure and a, and a, I guess a way of doing things in the scientific literature, but, you know, team up with a science team up with a herpetologist and write the paper together. There's, there's lots of interest in those kinds of things, especially if you're out there gathering data and spending your time and money without them having to put in a dime, they're going to be very happy to publish something, you know, if you, if you make some discovery. So maybe, maybe, maybe, but I'm going to, I'm going to take it back to the argument just for a second. Yeah. Go for it. How many people are reading those

papers and how many people are seeing the YouTube videos? I'm just saying, I'm just, I'm just, I mean, it's a fair point for sure. And I think that that's, that's, I guess that's what I'm kind of making a plea for is that we're, we're shifting too much towards the entertainment and shifting away from education. So yeah, we'll be wowed for a bit, but then what's next? Like they're going to want more and more, you know, shocking or more, you know, it's, it's going to, to, to stimulate that, that, uh, uh, release of endorphins or whatever. It's going to take more and more to get them excited about things. And pretty soon they're just going to be like, oh, I've seen it all. I don't, I don't have any interest in this.

You know, they kind of, have you seen coyote Peterson get bit by an alligator snapping turtle? Come on. The how many bites until you're like, okay, I'm sick of watching this guy get bit by stuff. Everyone loves watching someone get hurt, which is terrible. And I actually am not one of those people. Whenever I see a video of somebody that's getting bit or stung or like, you know, hit by something, I can't watch it. Like those videos of people getting bit by Crocs. I cannot physically watch them. They disturb me to the core.

But if you look at how many people Coyote Peterson has following him, people like watching him get hurt. It's true. It's true. Yeah. I mean, they like his educational content, of course. Yeah. And I, and yeah, he, he is putting out a lot of, uh, information as well. So I get that. I don't know. I don't watch him, but I've never watched him.

I've seen the thumbnails and I've, I've heard all the clips of him getting nailed by a tarantula hawk. So I did watch him chase around a parenti on one of his videos. So he did put out a few factoids about parenti so i appreciate that but hey you watched the video yeah i did yeah hey any video with a parenti i'm i'm on board yeah well um i don't know any many uh final thoughts and it's getting late where you're at we're we're west co, so it's not as bad for us, but.

Oh, I stay up until like two or three o'clock in the morning most days. So it's, it's not that late. Um, I would like to go on record before we close this episode to say that I'm not actually on this side. I'm at much more on the education side,

but I like playing devil's advocate because I feel like until you can play both sides of the coin on a topic, you don't know it super, super well. And so I'd like to say that I'm much more on the education. I think if you watch anything that I post online, you'll see that it's much more along the education side of things. But I do understand that the entertainment has its place, even though I don't particularly like most of the people who entertain

when it comes to reptiles. they kind of get on my nerves but and I I did I I do enjoy your memes that you put out too oh yeah pretty funny stuff yeah I just I think about uh you know if you can I think it goes back to just like you know reaching people if you can reach people you can teach them things but goes back to just reaching people. If you can reach people, you can teach them things. But you have to be able to reach them first because there's – I know so many people who are like so incredibly smart. They've got all this incredible knowledge. I think that they're like the most fascinating people. But to the average person, they go, I don't even understand what he's talking about right now.

It just doesn't reach him. And for me, that's tragic because I'm like, there is so much cool information out there. Like Bob Rock over here, when we were hanging out at Carver Fest, I was like, oh my god. This is like – it just makes my brain tingle with all the incredible stuff and talking with and talking with you and then zach bias and just talking about all of these like you know such such interesting things and then i think about like the um you know the average person who's watching a youtube video and i just know that they would be bored to death with the conversation that we're having right now um but for me i'm like oh man this is just like i wish i could just sit here and talk all night because I just soak that stuff up because I think that you can learn from just about anyone.

I've learned things from 10-year-olds who have come on tours. And the moment that you think that you know more than everybody, that's the moment you should give up because I have learned things from all kinds of people. And the more different types of people you meet, the more things that you're going to learn and the more ways that you can apply those things to the things that you're currently doing. You know, look at the fish hobby and the way that they are. They've got these timers on their lights that ramp up to create the sunrise, peak during the day, and then ramp down at nighttime. What do our timers do?

They turn on at 8 o'clock in the morning and then they turn off at 8 o'clock at night. Man, like hard on, hard off. That's it. Cool. It did the thing, right? Yeah. But if we are in our own bubble, we don't ever get to learn those things. We don't ever get a chance to grow.

And I think that's part of all of this is growth. And go to Steve Irwin, go to Brian Barczyk. As you watch them, they grew and changed and developed as they went on in their career. You know, Steve Irwin was catching things in his Jeep and putting it in a little, you know, bucket, basically, you know, he's got like this little tiny box that you're like, oh, the crocodile is going to break that thing immediately. I don't know what he was thinking doing that. And, you know, now he's, you know, his legacy has built this incredible zoo where people

can go because they saw the dude jump on a snake out in the desert face first and land on a parenti, you know. They saw him do that, but then they come to the zoo and they learn about Australian wildlife. They get to see a koala person. They learn about that thing. You know, I haven't been to Australia yet. I know that Australia Zoo is high on my list when I go there and I need to see a death adder and a lace monitor. But, you know, all of this to say that we start with education, besides us freaks, the average kid is going to look at, oh, bright-colored snake. Oh, it grabbed the bird.

Oh, just something to grab the attention. And then after that, that's when everything else conspires. That's when everything else happens. And so we do need to have that entertainment. We do need to have something that draws people in. I think that the fish hobby right now is – I'm not going to say it's suffering, but it is struggling because they are having a tough time getting newer people to join and to really get into it. Less people are going out and getting a fish tank for their kids because it's a lot of work. Back in the day, they didn't really tell you how much work it was. They just said, you get a fish tank. You got some kids. getting a fish tank for their kids because it's a lot of work you know back in the day they didn't really tell you how much work it was they just said you get a fish tank you got some kids get a fish tank they'll have them for you know a couple months and then

you get rid of your fish tank and uh you know the fish hobby is is struggling right now because it's it's not as many people that are getting drawn in because they are lacking in that entertainment portion of things and you know they had like deadliest catch and you know there there are things out there they're you know they're shark week on discovery and all that sort of stuff but that doesn't always trigger the same interest as people seeing you know a cobra or rattlesnake or or whatever and so the entertainment portion of things reaches so far, so deep down into the pool of people that would never have an opinion one way or the other otherwise. And after that is where all the other things happen. And some people don't ever develop past, I need to see a guy hold a King cobra um and do something irresponsible with it some people don't ever get past that but there are lots of people who do and without that they wouldn't even

be interested in in the very basics of anything that we have to offer anything that we have to share um and if people don't care uh you know, people don't get invested. That's Steve Irwin. One of the things he says, you know, gone are the days of looking at wildlife behind the Zoom lens. No, no, no. I'm going to take you and I'm going to bring you right there with me. If I'm saving, I think it's whales in the ocean. I want you there with me.

If I'm catching snakes, I want you there with me. If I'm catching snakes, I want you there with me. Because if you can make people care about wildlife, then they want to save it. Because people want to save the things that they care about. And that is the whole portion. That was his thing. That is what he was. And, you know, I think that he was pretty good at doing that. Yeah. And I think he was definitely on to something.

Because, you know, I've watched lots of videos about, you know, whale sharks, but swimming of the whale shark last, uh, last month. I mean, you know, totally different than watching it. It was so, so great to experience that even bump into one on accident. The wave pushed me into one, like the guy, dude don't you're not supposed to wait oh wait that's the wave it wasn't you know he's like for legal purposes i didn't touch it i just i was i was near it or to find you know find that gila monster crawling around and just sit and watch it and you know just get excited about it that's that's what it's all about, I think, you know, just getting that experience. And that can only, you know, those experiences are irreplaceable.

You can see as many videos as you want on YouTube. But once you experience that for yourself, it's next level, I think. Hearing a rattlesnake, man, just a little buzz. Oh, man. Woo! Yeah. Poor Keith. We were looking at a clawbriar, a banded rock rattlesnake.

And, you know, we could hear it. The high frequency. Yeah. I'm like, oh, man. Yeah. Maybe you should walk behind us. I don't want you stepping on a club. Yeah.

That's just, yeah, that's an intense sound to hear that rattlesnake from a big old Western diamond pack or something, you know, to feel that, feel it, you know, you feel it. So, yeah, that's good stuff. Hell yeah. So much, so much cool information. And, you know, that Dunning-Kruger effect is a real deal and it's kind of spreading and it's kind of scary. So let's combat that. Let's actually learn stuff and, you know, realize that you don't know a lot and there's a lot to learn. And that's the joy of life, you know, is learning new things and finding new things out.

And, you know, the great thing about having a bad memory like me is you can learn the same stuff over again. Yeah. But yeah, I, yeah, I think this was a great discussion. I really appreciate your insights. That was some, some fun devil's advocating you did there. Listen to me on that. I'm all about that. Like I said, I, if I feel like I am well-versed on a topic, I want to be able to even sit on the side that I don't agree with and be able to make some points. And, and I feel like that's kind of where I was at tonight. Oh yeah. You're that's the, that's the whole idea of this show and you're a heavyweight man. That was great. Yeah. That's what I like it. I like it when there's some back and forth, some opposing opinions on it. Exactly. Yeah, good stuff.

Well, where can people find you? Talk about your podcast and all the stuff you're doing. Yeah, yeah. Check out the Reptile Talk podcast. That's with my buddy Jeremy from Brassman Reptiles. I've known him for over a decade now. We do a podcast where we just talk to people about reptiles and talk about the things that they find interesting.

We try and get people on who I think can share a new perspective or something that people can learn from. It's kind of less structured. We just let the conversation go where it's going to go. Reptile Talk, check it out. We just kind of like let the conversation go where it's going to go. Um, but reptile talk,

check it out. We're on all the streaming things. If you're listening to this, wherever you're listening to this, you can find reptile talk on there too. Yeah. You guys are really fun to listen to. I really, uh,

enjoy your podcast for sure. Thank you. Really kind of a nice, easy banter. And you know, you're fun to, you're, you're always positive and energetic and it's, it's

really a fun time to listen to. So yeah, highly recommend. I appreciate that. I feel like, uh, coming from the education portion of things, when I get to like talk reptiles with people, I just get so into it. And like, I'm sure, you know, Rob Stone knows when I was out there, I was like, oh man, I just get so excited talking about things and hard to keep it all under wraps. So, you know, on the podcast, I just got to keep it cool and casual. Well, that was, I mean, I always thought, you know, the, the phone conversations that you have with your reptile buddies are always, I just thought that would be a fun podcast just to record your telephone conversations.

You'd probably have to edit out a lot of it, you know, to, to spare feelings or something, but, but, uh, yeah, it'd be, it'd be interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so yeah, check that out. Reptile talk. Uh, if you want to see what I'm doing and look at all my reptile memes, uh, check it out. Rob is Creeping It Real on Instagram. Please don't add me on Facebook. I prefer to just have people who I know in real life on Facebook. I do have a lot of friends on Facebook, but I do know probably a third to probably a third to half, like probably about half of the 4,000 people that are on there or whatever it is. So I've met all of them in person. Um, and I try

and keep things positive and introspective. And, and, uh, you know, I try to, I like to make people think because, uh, there is a serious gap in our social media, programs of being on social media platforms. There's definitely a gap of, you know, pushing people to think critically about things. And I hope that with the things that I share, people can think critically about them. And if people have a differing opinion, I'm always willing to hear that out and to, you know, uh, take into consideration that I don't know everything, you know? No, that's awesome. Yeah. I, uh, I, I, I just like from, from the first time I met you, I became a fan, you know, you're just, you're just that kind of guy, you know, just, and, uh, I think you should limit it, you know, your, your friends list to anybody who's eaten one of your bacon cupcakes.

There you go. Great. I should. You're quite the, quite the cook. Clear out some people real quick. Yeah. Awesome.

Well, we kind of appreciate you guys having me on so much. It's been an honor. A lot of fun. Yeah. Well, we'll have to have you back for sure. If you, if you ever have any ideas, you want to get, get a fight out of your system,

just let us know. Happy to have you back anytime, man. We're going to do the free handling episode. It's free handling. Good for the hobby. Sorry. You can have the, you can have the pro free handling side. I'll do the con, you know, on that one. Yeah. Well, I guess I could be classified as a nipper called me a dirty free handler in Arizona. Oh, you tailed something? Yeah, I tailed. It was a little coral snake.

It was tiny. So I don't think I could have got it any other way. And it was, its tail was just sticking out from like this fallen yucca or something. Like it was underneath this plant, most of it. And I just i just saw the tail i'm like that's a coral snake i don't want to let this thing get away so i i grab it and i'm like okay i got it now give me something to put it in quick so we could go photograph it and stuff and we put it back right where it was you know right where we found it but yeah that was and uh and that know, I don't even know if it could have bitten me, but yeah. Ruining the hobby. Look at this guy over here. He's free handling things, posting it online for the likes. I knew it. I knew it. Justin Julien are just doing things for the

views. You got me the knockout punch right there. Well, I guess, you know, along these veins, we kind of like to end the show with anything educational or anything interesting you've seen in the last, you know, few weeks or months or whatever.

Unfortunately, there was some, a bit of bad news lately. There was a guy in Colorado who, who's gotten bit by a Gila monster and actually died. Died a couple of days later. Yeah. And it wasn't even a full grown one.

Really? A juvenile. I didn't, didn't see that in there. That's, that's crazy. Yeah. What are, I mean, it's a totally rare thing. I mean, he had to have been had some kind of allergy. It must be the first person since what?

1930. 1930. Yep. Yep. So almost a hundred years since the last person since, what, 1930? 1930, yep. Yep. So almost 100 years since the last person was. And that documentation for that person wasn't from a hospital or a medical journal. It was like from some article written someplace. Right.

So quite possibly even longer. Even longer, yeah. You would wonder about underlying health conditions and, you know, allergic reaction, just the whole context of it. I don't doubt that there's more to the story that we'll never know. But yeah, unfortunate, certainly. Yeah. So hopefully there won't be any negative repercussions of for reptile keepers in Colorado. You know, they won't start trying to outlaw, you know, Gila monsters because

there's a documented, you know, death on the books or something. So I don't know. As opposed to decades of them being kept safely, you know, talk about Doc Seward, all these, you know, some real innovators in terms of captive Gila monster propagation and all like yeah but the one of those uh pioneers in gila yeah keeping and just basic biology of the things yeah but it's uh for sure fortunate for sure yeah yeah yeah the dude was like 34 years old too he wasn't even that old so yeah yeah pretty young just goes to show you people got to be more careful with their heel. I see a lot of people laying with them on their chest and like putting them up to their face and stuff. I'm like, Oh man, do you have no,

no concept of like self-preservation at all? Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's the thing that's, I guess, maybe going back to our discussion where, you know, kind of that entertainment is leading is like, we, we want to have some shocking thing that we're doing with a reptile rather than just saying this is a Gila monster. Look how I mean, what a what cooler lizard can you see, you know, than a Gila? Maybe a maybe a parenti, but that's just me. But, you know, Gila monsters are such cool lizards. And, you know, they're kind of, you know, plotty, dopey demeanor kind of belies that they are a venomous animal, you know. And you don't know that you have an allergy until you're bitten in the intensive care unit, you know.

So why take the risk? Why, you know. My thing is that. You got to tail a snake sometimes that's venomous or you gotta move them. Or if you're keeping them, you've got to interact with them at some, on some level. And if you don't know how to properly handle them, you shouldn't be keeping them first off, you know, but you also shouldn't be taking stupid risks like, you know, holding a wild Cobra mid body, you know, that that's just asking for trouble. You know, I,

I just don't get it. You're going to lose a finger or, or worse, you know? Yeah. For real. Anyway, my thing is that like, like I was telling you, the average person has no frame of reference. So when they see someone with a Gila monster on their chest, they're not going, Oh, look at that venomous lizard. They're going, Oh, that dude's got a lizard on his chest. They don't need, they have no. And that's one of the things that i argue with people who free handle things they're like i'm showing people that like venomous snakes are not out to like kill people and i'm like i guarantee you if you pick up a rat snake and the rat snake does the same thing that the cobra does people are just as entertained and you are at no risk of dying from the rat snake i i guarantee it because all people

see is you holding the snake that's got its mouth open and everything else is almost everything else is irrelevant to them you know for the average person when it comes to entertainment and it's just risk reward man you gotta weigh it and people who know who know better are like who's this you're an idiot yeah they're not entertained they're they're just like freaking out because they're like oh great here comes legislation you know like yep yeah the only reason people know they're deadly snakes is if you're telling them but yeah you can hold a rat snake and say this is the most dangerous snake on earth and i'm i'm handling it because i'm cool you don't even have to say that just just the fact that

it's a snake and it's got its mouth open is enough for most people. Most people probably think any snake bite is probably – Is deadly. Is lethal or – yeah. Yeah. I would have so many people on our tours ask that. They're like, have you been bit by a snake? And I'm like, lots of them.

And they're like, you're not dead. And I'm like, yeah, I've never been bit by a venomous snake. I've been bit by lots and lots of harmless snakes, you know, not regularly, but it has happened, you know? Yeah. I got bit by an inland this week, if you can believe it. I think I was a little bold. I, it was, he was probably thinking it was feeding time and I was reaching in to grab

him and he just gave me a little nip, but yeah, that's a rare event. I can't even think of the last time I got bit by. Hard to get bit by an inland. I love those. They're so pretty. Yeah, they're so cool. All right. Well, thanks again for coming on, Rob.

It's been a pleasure having you here and really enjoyed hearing your perspective on these things and lots of great points. So, yeah, again, we'll have you back anytime. So just say the word. It is fight club time. Thank you guys for having me on. We've got to ring the bell. Ding, ding,

ding, ding. It's over. You guys got to leave a comment and let us know who won the fight. There you go. Or, or don't. Cause I'm pretty sure.

Or don't, or don't. No. Yeah. Thanks again, man. And we'll catch y'all again next week for another episode of reptile fight.