Reptile Fight Club - Podcast Etiquette?

Episode Date: May 18, 2025

In this episode we talk about podcast etiquette?Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comIGFollow Rob @ https://www.instagram.com/highplainsherp/Follow MPR Network @FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQSwag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Alright, welcome to another episode of Reptile Fight Club. We are happy to be here this evening. Tonight it's just myself, Justin Julander and Mr. Rob Stone. How are you doing? I'm doing great. Excited to be here. Yeah. We still have one in the can, but it's always good to try and keep ahead of it.

Oh, that's good. Traveling stuff going. Yeah. I guess I just record them. I don't pay much attention to when they come out and stuff. So yeah, that's, I guess that's how it goes. Well, that's, that's, we get spoiled having such a great pod father in Eric. He just takes care of all that side of it. So we just have to put out the content and record something. So yeah, we, uh, we've been staying pretty good on it, you know, recording shows pretty regularly. Hopefully,

that's appreciated and our listeners are okay with that, with the rate they're coming out. How's everything going with you? It's been super busy and we'll continue to be so, right? We're getting into the herping season, which is good, super exciting. Stuff in the works, short, medium, long term, so that's good. Went out this past week, so this past week was the Denver Zoo happened to be hosting the tax and advisory group, the TAG meetings for stuff. So on Tuesday, I had folks over the house to check out stuff that was exciting where it's you got seven her keepers slash curators or whatever over at the house and feels like

you're under the microscope, but no, it seemed to go really well. Apparently they were all excited to come and then Tom was saying they were chatting through it or excited or still talking about it a couple days later. So that's good. Take that as positive. And then on the weekend or nearly so, we'd gotten up, the weather was terrible, but we went out.

It was like that was the day that could make sense for everybody in the group. So we went out to a spot with some milk snakes and potentially hog nose, but it was probably 48 degrees. Oh, wow. Yeah. And I wasn't too sanguine about our chances, but I was like, well, we, you know, heck, we're here. The old motto, you got to try it, right?

This is the time that works. They're here. You know, it would certainly wouldn't be a day I would choose just if you said, hey, you got multiple big window or whatever. Sure. But yeah, we went up and it's mostly flipping. So I did think there was more chance there than for the most part, hog nose you find out. So kind of basking in sunny conditions. So I wasn't that hopeful about that. I thought maybe we could flip one But yeah, we did find four milks. Wow

Yellow Belly racer nice and that the funny part was that first milk snake was a big probably male looking at condition wise and things and was sort of an interesting look to it almost looked like one of the buckskin therai with that sort of brownish orange, which is not a typical look for ours. But he was actually sitting out on top of the board trying to try his best to catch some rays. So that was kind of wild. That was the first one and it was like, Oh, that's a surprise. You know, that's awesome. Yeah. It was really good. And I was honestly, you know know the feeling right when you take folks out or you know Yeah, I'm posting them showing around. Oh, yeah, it's like he just Yeah

Even in the conditions where you're going in inside. I'm thinking well, you know Thursday night Should we do this, you know, whatever your Friday night or whatever should we do this? I'm going yeah Well, you're here. We're doing it. Whatever, let's give it a go, see how it happens. So yeah, so I was super happy with that. I did one funny little side note, you know, things that happen, especially when you're out in the country or whatever, because we've been getting rain and it's very soft, loamy soil up there, there's some relatively steep, particularly like one sidedsided embankments off the road. I turned down the small country road and a 350, so it's got the two wheels

on either side in the back with a probably 20-foot flatbed pulling some heavy machinery or whatever. I'm out there in the pickup and I was like, okay, I got to kind of lean over here. So I do to make space for him and as I do, I start tilting and kind of I wind up at a, I don't know, what would that be a 20 degree angle? It's supposed to be straight on, kind of 20 degrees. I'm like, okay, we'll see how this goes and So I tried to sort of give it a quick acceleration back and a pull forward through this Yeah, Gully, you know situation or whatever and to no effect the wheels Fortunately the guy, you know, I saw him, you know

He went by slow and had stopped and it hadn't been even 10, 15 seconds that he had stopped and was getting the chain from the bad guys. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of his fault. Yeah. I mean, you know, not his fault. Yeah.

You know, it's just like, I'm trying to do a good deed for him and he's like, I'm not going to strain the favor. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah yeah so we're on it and within you know under a minute I'm back right is right oh nice oh that's good yeah that's not where you want to be is tucking the dirt here in the you know loose soil I was just looking at it like hmm that's pretty deep yeah I have to hop out of the track you know and by the time after I tried my little maneuver, we were probably at 30 degrees, 25, 30 degrees at that point.

Oh man. Oh, that's good. Yeah. It's always nice to find some stuff. And I'm curious, like the conversation with the professional herpetologist versus herpetoculturalist. Oh, it's mostly the same, to be honest with you. Yeah. Maybe that's part of my whole experience has been in both veins and with the same people being involved in both veins and those sorts of things. It was super great, super casual the whole time. Just kind of, hey, you know, these are, and especially, you know, kind of, so Dennis McNamara, actually he's been on the show.

Yeah, yeah. Was one of the folks that had come out. Oh, cool. And yeah, and so they, all those folks are really giving him the business about, you know, all the ball pythons and stuff. Oh, really? Yeah, that was the question to me.

Do you have any ball pythons? And. Oh, really? So that was the question to be, do you have any ball pythons? And I'm like, no, I don't. I'm like, OK, you're on our side. You're all good. So that's funny. Yeah, so that was fun. Nice. Dennis is a cool guy.

I really like him. He does some good stuff. So that's cool. Nice. Well, yeah, I got out last Saturday just for a bit and Don Belknap, he's a garter snake guy down in Salt Lake area. And so he came up to do a little herping and of course the primary targets were Thamnophis and we've got the two species up here, the wandering and the, um, the, uh, gosh dang it, but Valley garters, okay. Um, elegans and, uh, um, my brain is not functioning. Um, sir, talus. Yeah. So

the valley, sir, talus. Yeah. I think there's a, yeah, this Fitcheye or something like that. Yeah. But, um, cool, you know, cool snakes. I don't pick them up. I'm not a fan of the schweeze smell. So Don loves it. So he was happy to pick stuff up and that kind of stuff. But I'm like, I kind of like just would point I was a pointer. I was like, there's one. There's one. So yeah, but it was kind of cool. He came out with a few friends and I believe his daughter. And we found probably a dozen or so garters and both species. I think we only found one of the Sertalus. And I could only be there for a couple hours in the morning and then had to get back. We had an Easter party down at my parents,

so had to get out of there a little earlier, but they kept going. So I need to find out from him how they ended up. How it wound up. Yeah. So yeah, it was kind of fun. But yeah, always good to chat herbs. And he had a former fish and wildlife agent, a retired fish and wildlife agent that came out and was talking about some cool stuff. Oh, very cool. Nice time. Oh, yeah. Always good to get out and look for stuff and just be out in nature. Well, and I suppose the addendum is similar to you. I had that aspect of where I wasn't there

with them the next day. They were running down to Southern Colorado, but they'd run out to a spot. Instead of being 48 and cloudy, it was low to mid 70s and sunny. And sure enough, they actually wound up flipping a hog nose, which I was surprised. But they did see one and I told them, I was like, you guys are really between, and they start praying for rattlesnakes early in the week And it's like hey you guys saw the stuff that you know Yeah, you saw the goods the the best, you know sort of what you can find here

Just our I know on the East Coast right milk snakes are much more common. We've we've we saw and in that one crack maybe more than Combined milk snakes I've seen in my life, You know, but they look quite different, right? Yeah. Yeah. They're not quite as nice. And that was what Keith had said, you know, Keith had reached out separate and was like, man, that's really cool. You know, they're just so seasonal here is again, it kind of goes to the East coast. I'm sure they are with you too. Oh yeah. I mean,

it's here where it's there's a brief, a couple of brief windows in the year where you can maybe see them. That's about it. Yeah. I mean, really, they're a flipping snake out here for the most part. I mean, you can cruise them once in a while, but yeah, you got to do a lot of flipping and find milk snakes. I think I prefer the Mountain Kings because you can find them out on the crawl a little

easier. But yeah, I mean, they're both beautiful for sure. And, and, you know, as you go east, they become much more easy, easy to find that, my friend, Pat, he was, yeah, he was headed out to Kansas, I believe. And so they did a little bit of herping in Utah. I think they said they found one or two milks in Utah, and then they found like five or six in Colorado, and then they found like 20 or six in Colorado. Then they found like 20 or 30 in Kansas. As they further east they went, they found more and more of basically the Western milkshake. Yeah, the Gentilis. I think part of it is just the moisture component because they're a really moisture limited

snake so that it's like, well, Utah is a little bit drier than Colorado. Kansas is much wetter than Colorado in general. Right. Right. We just talked to Dave Kelly and I guess they've had a little bit of rough conditions for it. I'm sure it's localized and different things or whatever, but yeah, it's like, okay, well where you have consistent humidity, definitely much more common. Yeah. Thomas Wilder's already found a handful of mountain kings out. It helps when you live in their range, but he's finding them pretty easily already. He's probably the biggest mountain king snake guy in the state, I would say. I think he's probably found more than just about anybody that I know of. I got in contact with Mark Hazel,

who was involved with the reptile group back 20 years ago or something. He was going out to the lesser explored mountain ranges to try to find them out there and stuff. It's kind of cool. I mean, it's definitely a lot harder to find them out there. And so like, you know, he's found a handful in new mountain ranges and you know, well, unknown to science, I guess you'd say, but yeah, so it's kind of cool to hear from him again. And here he's still out there doing it, looking for, you know, just going out to these random mountain ranges on the west desert. Yeah. And I mean, it gets even harder to delineate in like Nevada and stuff like that, because there's just very little that, you know, that goes on as far as looking for them out there. So yeah, a lot of, a lot of things we don't know, which is kind of cool, you know, you

think, oh, in this day and age, we know everything. But yeah, it seems like sometimes that information gets lost. I think people are so tight lipped with, you know, localities and spots. And, you know, sometimes the person takes the knowledge to their grave or whatever, but it is what it is. Yeah. So, yeah, absolutely. Well, and then we got to see some cool pictures that, I guess I guess Dustin so Dustin had gone Yeah, what twice in three weeks and I think Brandon went with them either this time or both times and yeah So they saw some cool stuff. Yeah Yeah, yeah, nevertheless very cool. Right? Yeah, that's I'm glad they're exploring that area. That's pretty cool I guess it's been really dry out there. So yeah, maybe that'll help if they get a little rain or moisture out there. Yeah. That's always the trick, right? Get

getting a getting some wet conditions. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Not, not while you're there. You don't want it pouring on you because you're probably not going to find much either unless it's the first rain in a long time and they're coming out. And then even then maybe the next day is the day after when it heats up again or something. Yeah. I don't know. Herping's just such a, it's so fun. I just love it. I'm very excited for the end of May here. Yeah. Yeah. I saw that Stacey's been posting some photos that,

Oh really? Oh yeah. Yeah. You'll have to check that out. Yep. So she's finding one of our targets out there. Sure. So that's good. I don't know if it's in the same area we're going to be looking, but they... Yeah, she knows how to find them. So that's good. Yeah. Well, that's even what Dan had said. He was like, yeah, this is her deal, man. You got to convince her that you guys are cool. So... Nice. Yeah. I mean, those you guys are cool. So nice. Yeah. Well, that, I mean, those guys are really cool. I was, I was, um, I'm not, not surprised, but like hearing about their

collection and all the cool species they keep them like, these are my people, you know, my kind of people. So yeah, I'm looking forward to herping with them a bit. That'll be fun. Yeah, I don't know. I've got about eight clutches in the incubator and so things are going pretty well. I haven't been gone as much in the egg laying season as I typically am. Yeah. It's a little better when you're home to catch the clutches. But yeah, on Tuesday night, I was checking the females and feeding and stuff. I lift up the hide for the inland. I've got a trio in a large cage and here's two females wrapped around each other. It almost looked like a beehive, but they were wrapped each other. Then here's this pile of eggs sitting right next to them. Fallen plump, the eggs look good and everything, but they were like not on the eggs. They were

wrapped around each other. So I think one of the females might still have, you know, be, be gravid. So I think just one of the females laid, but she had 15 eggs and this is a Maug to AAR line. So kind of excited to see that kind of outcross a little bit and get some, you know, hopefully some different looks. Cause the male is really cool. He's kind of a bolder, like dark contrasty looking inland, which is kind of a cool look. So hopefully some of these babies will be neat looking. It's so hard with those, man. I, you know, want to just... It's been a couple of years since you produced them anyway, yeah? Yeah. Well, I've still got, I think I have a reverse trio still from what, a year and a half ago or maybe two years now. But yeah, they're looking really good. There's one that I'm like,

well, maybe I need to keep that one. The other day it shed and it was just blue. Blue is blue. And I'm like, what is this? And I guess it doesn't always look like that, but maybe it was just fresh shed. And yeah, it looked really nice. So I think I've still got some clutches from Woma pythons. They're definitely gravid. I wish they'd just lay the eggs, you know? And then I think another pygmy is due to lay and hopefully some spotted pythons. I got a clutch of Western stems and a clutch of children's.

So if the spotteds and a clutch of pygmies in the incubator, so if the spotteds go, I get all four. And yeah, that's a nice deal. And then, yeah, I got some new snakes this week. So that's exciting. That's a fine, eh? Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

So yeah, I mean, they were a lot larger than I thought they were gonna be. They're two years old So yeah, I was able to import them out of Europe with no no Issues so that was that was very nice Maybe all this turmoil in the government is okay. They're not Legal or anything, but you know, they're not not. But they got pulled in France for some reason. I'm not even sure why they went to France, from England to France.

And then they inspected them there and delayed the shipment. So I was supposed to get them last week and then they didn't come till Tuesday. So I was supposed to get them last Thursday, but then they arrived in the country on Thursday and she didn't want to ship on Saturday or Friday for Saturday. So yeah, I had to wait till Tuesday, but yeah, they're really nice, really good looking. So I'm excited to work with this, whatever it is. Right. Well, I mean, that's the cool part too.

You haven't found them before and stuff and to get ones that, you know, it's that same phenotype, it's not a questionable thing. Because sometimes the European stuff, you can look a little skeptically. I think they like to post for fools occasionally. Take advantage of what they perceive to be our greed or avarice or stupidity or all the above. But yeah, I mean, the fact that you found them and it's like, oh, they look like this.

That's perfect. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, they look just like they did in the wild for the most part. So yeah, it's exciting. Well, yeah, I guess things are going about as good as they can. Hopefully I can get stuff hatched out and getting eating consistently and all that good stuff. The blackhead eggs are still looking good, so hopefully they'll go the distance. And I don't know, that was kind of a fun, I guess, puzzle. Each year I'd get eggs and they'd have a different kind

of failure or something. So finally it's like, okay, I think I've nailed it down. I think I know what, you know, and, and sure enough, you know, they laid a good clutch and she wrapped around them and all this good stuff, like good signs and things moving in the right direction. So at least I'm making improvements there. Sometimes you learn the hard way. I realized my air conditioner was unplugged. Like the vent was the vent had unplugged from the back of the units. One of those freestanding units, not a window unit. And so it was just basically blowing that hot air from the air conditioner into the room. I go out there. I'm like, why is this room so hot? Like I've never had it this hot this time of year. And finally, I like, I better check this thing. And I look

by I'm like, Oh my gosh, I'm an idiot. You know, just stupid. So recirculating hot air. Yeah, yeah. And pumping out cold air as well. I'm like, I can feel it. It's cold air coming out of this thing. But I guess the hot air was more so than, you know, the exchange doesn't work so well if you don't vent it out to the side. And then I was worried like, man, this is, you know, fumes from the AC. That's not great either. So I was like, every time I go out to the reptile room, I just open the doors and air it out. And I'm like, what is going on here? So I'm an idiot sometimes, but what do you do? Well, I think we all are.

I'm sure nobody can relate to that, right? Everybody keeps perfectly. Yeah. Well, are we ready to do a little fight? How's your season going? You got any stuff you're planning or what are you looking forward to with your collection Yeah, nothing too crazy. I have a Probably should be on track for more Jamaican boas All it looks, you know those sort of clockwork two years, you know All those things look normal Rhino stuff they're building up and all that.

So yeah, it's all good. But yeah, it runs later than you guys. Yeah, it's getting a little later. Well, I mean, that was part of the puzzle with the black edit by Thons is like, she would lay in February. So I'm like, I got to put the mail in there in like September, August or something. They just get going soon. So yeah, it's kind of crazy. But yeah,

you get clutches in February or March and you're already going, you know, so should be cool. But yeah, good times. I, I'm a little worried about the economy. The economy's not great. People are buying a lot of snakes. So I hope I don't produce a ton of snakes and then have no, you know, out right homes for them. I have room for them, but I just won't have, you know, buyers maybe, but hopefully things will go well. Hopefully somebody's making it rich off the, all the turmoil in the stock market. Wiser investors than myself. Now I guess we'll see.

Can't, can't panic yet, right? Absolutely. No benefit to that. Yeah, exactly. I have to keep telling myself that, watching the NIH dismantle. Like, okay, I can't panic yet. Yeah. Anyway. All right.

Well, let's fight about something good here. So we're kind of starting a little bit of a theme. We'll see how this goes with next week's discussion. But this week, I guess I was listening to, or I was talking to a friend and he mentioned something that a potential, somebody at a reptile show had said at his booth about, oh, I've heard this snake does this or is not good because of this, you know, it was kind of like, oh, where'd you hear that? And it was a reptile podcast, you know, and it was bad information. And, and, and so, you know, do, do reptile podcasts have kind of a, should

they be, I guess, responsible or have some sort of etiquette to, to not demean other projects or to speak badly? What are kind of the good things and bad things that can come from reptile podcasters? So that's kind of the topic for, for tonight. We'll, we'll discuss either side of that. So go ahead and flip a coin. Give it a call there. Change it up.

Call heads. Heads. Heads. You got it. You're on a roll. Yeah. Which side would you like to take? That they have a responsibility to put forth good information or say, they can do whatever they want.

So I think by natural predilection tends to say that there is an obligation to it. So I'm going to try and fight the other side. So let's see. So I'll say that they don't, that they're just doing it for their own enjoyment and that people should consume with care, I guess. But I will check you and we can just chat through it. Sure. Of course.

That's kind of how we work here, if you haven't figured it out yet. We try to see both sides and I think we could potentially argue both sides. So that's what it's supposed to be. All right. Well, as the winner, are you going to check me or you want to go first? Absolutely. All right. Of course. All right. Well, so yeah, I guess in that regard, you know, if

you're, I guess the main point is if you're spreading bad information, that's, yeah, that's not good. That's not great regardless. You're not going to do yourself any favors because anybody who knows about the species you're talking about is going to think you're an idiot. I would say stick to your lane. Talk about things you know about. Don't talk about things you have no experience with. It's the whole, the snake laid next to me to size me up because it was trying to figure out if it could eat me, you know, that kind of stuff. Like those, those kinds of rumors that keep going around. I even, I was watching an old Steve Irwin episode and, uh, just kind of an aside there.

I, I, I guess when I was watching them for the first time, I never realized how much of that stuff is just absolutely staged. You know, they've just pulled the snake out of a bag and threw it on a sand dune. And look at this giant mullet we found that's like eight feet long. And, you know, the size of a pickle jar. Like, OK, that's not a wall that eats jumbo jumbo rats. Exactly. So I was like, oh, man. And, you know, finding a freshly hatched clutch of green tree Python

babies in a, in a bush, you know, like that you can reach and stuff like, okay, this might be a setup. You know, I'm sure there's probably some stuff they found that was wild. And you could usually tell a little bit of a different behavior when they're dealing with those big, but how much it was like hammed up anyway, sorry, sorry to all my fellow, fellow Steve Irwin fans. But, um, so what was my point there? Oh, he, he talked about how the snakes unhinged their jaws, you know, and to, to swallow their pram like really Steve Irwin said they unhinged their jaws. Like, I mean, I get like, it's kind of a, you know, they have very flexible skulls, but there's no,

I guess, what do you define unhinging as, you know, they just can open their jaw really wide, they don't have a chin, so they can stretch it out, you know, that, that kind of bad information just gets passed around. So anytime, you know, then you, then you're kind of like that know it all guy though, actually snakes just open their mouth really. Why you sound like the, the weird nerd kid, something they're like, Oh, thanks. Bye. You know, it's a, you don't want to go around correcting everybody, but sometimes it's important to do so. Um, and you know, I've seen some pretty fun little goofy arguments online, of course, where all wonderful goofy arguments occur about, you know, things like should they be called venomous

or poisonous and those kinds of discussions can be entertaining but also very frustrating. So I guess that's my first point. If you're going to be out there talking about information and people look to you as an expert because you've got a podcast. Right? Anybody who has a podcast or can record a podcast is automatically an expert. Right? Take things with a grain of salt, especially if you're listening. But they definitely, wait, I'm arguing they have a responsibility. Right?

Yes. You have a responsibility to put out good information. If you don't know it, get it from your guest, get it from another source. And I think too, that's kind of why this podcast was formed was because I found myself yelling at my phone or wherever it was playing from, yelling at my headphones, whatever you want to say, when they wouldn't challenge people on these bold claims that sounded off. You're like, wait a second, follow up on that. They can't say that. That's not right, that kind of thing.

And I guess you can see things from different angles and different points of view, but sometimes just bad information is bad information. So put forward good information. Yeah, absolutely. I think kind of the, the principle point for the sort of contrary side that jumps out to me. Cause again, I would definitely fall into your box. And as someone who consumes a lot of podcasts, I certainly have had that experience and even, um, you know, seeing it change and grow over time. And so maybe that's part of my, why I'm willing to embrace this side of it is as long to me,

the critical distinction is are you well-intentioned and trying to exude and promote passion as opposed to being cynical or being focused on negativity or problems with the hobby or drama or whatever. If you're, if you're well-intentioned, passionate, and you keep showing up, uh, even if you have views that you yourself will regret, you know, as history goes by, uh, cause I mean, who amongst us doesn't have that where at least you say like, Oh, I was actually kind of wrong about this or I was taking the wrong tact or engaging it in a pro, you know, not the way that I would today. Um, to me, that's really the number one thing. And honestly, that sort of drives how

sustainable your effort is, right? And it's the passion that keeps you turning up. We've talked about it before, where it's like most podcasts, the average length of a number of episodes of a podcast is, you know, six to seven, something like that. So once someone goes past that point, well, they're more committed than the 50th percentile in terms of even seeing cool podcasts from years ago or it existed in this window, it's COVID. There was the podcast boom and all those things. I think if you're coming from an era and even amongst folks that would fit into that box, right, where they would be led astray is if they sort of had a cynical

view about a particular thing. So generally, they're positive and promoting good things and building excitement. It would be when, oh, I don't like those things and they sort of diminish what they're talking about because they're not interested in it, either by not engaging it or by promoting negative stereotypes. That's what you're talking about, was it's like, well, I don't work with those, so I haven't informed myself well enough to know that that's not actually the case. I'm just promoting a negative stereotype because of that.

Right. Yeah. I guess we don't run into that a lot on this podcast because we're not interviewing people about different species they keep and things like that. There's plenty of those out there and you can find all sorts of different genre and different species groups and things, which is cool. I mean, I love listening to species specific podcasts, but I also find myself kind of gravitating towards the things that I like and that I keep or that I'm interested in and would maybe like to keep but just can't, don't have the room or don't have the means. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So I guess that I think that's kind of the speaks to Eric and Owen where from the beginning they said, we're

going to have a positive attitude. We're going to make sure we don't just talk trash on other people and that we have that excitement and promote that excitement for lots of things. I think that is contagious as evidenced by Owen's collection and all the things that we see. And I think that goes for me too, when I hear a podcast about a certain species that I'm interested in, and I'm like, oh, that sounds doable. Oh, they're in the States. Oh, maybe I get some of those. It's kind of a dangerous thing sometimes to listen to reptile podcasts. But yeah, I think that's a good point. Being positive and promoting that is probably one of the most important

things you can do. And I think the ones that are negative and out there to trash talk and make enemies, they probably don't last very long. It's hard to sustain something out of spite versus something out of passion. So absolutely. Well, and the other part of it, you know, admittedly, and this is more a point to you, I do think is speaking as you maybe even said explicitly, speaking within your realm of experience and knowledge and not just sort of passing on hearsay about, oh, well, without at least framing it that way, right?

Here's this is actually the maybe the critical distinction is I think you can actually say things that are incorrect so long as you're presenting the context of your statement fairly saying I don't I've heard. I don't know. Personally, this is what I've heard. X and if it's two people that are talking, both of whom are situated that way, it doesn't necessarily fix the potential problem of someone doing that and taking it as true. But at least you're giving that context.

You're not presenting it as though that's an expert opinion that's instead that's promulgating that idea. It's saying, I don't know. I don't know anything about X, Y, or Z. What I hear from people has created this sort of impression in me that this is the case. I know historically, right, there will be especially things that are easy enough to pick on, be it condos, condo keepers, condo localities, alternative, gray banded king snakes and their localities, these sorts of things.

A lot of the time, people who haven't engaged in that community really deeply have sort of this inch deep, mile wide appreciation for what that actually means, particularly in the alternative context where it's like, oh, they're saying all these road things or whatever. And it's like, well, if you actually took time to study Google Maps and understand what their ecological niches and these sorts of things, you can see that it actually does make a difference. It's not arbitrary.

They're not just it might not be worthy of recognition in any sort of scientific way. It's not that, oh, this needs to be described as a different population, maybe even genetically maintained differently, whatever, which is what that group would like. But if you looked at the map, you wouldn't just say, oh, it's one side of the road versus the other. It's no, it's not if you engage. So I guess in the same way of saying like, are you engaging with the topic not only positively or at least with enthusiasm, but are you engaging with it honestly and seriously

at the level that the true experts in that are engaging with it? Because if you're not, then you're not going to do a service to that conversation because there's a deep conversation and you're only, you know, you picked off the easy, you know, name off the top and said like, oh, this is what they're talking about. And it's like, well, no, not really. So as long as they're bringing sort of the, again, sort of the context and saying, oh, well, I take it. I haven't made that deep dive into alternate localities and things. So maybe there's something more to it, but just on a superficial level, it looks kind of silly.

Right. And I think that's, that's true. You know, there, There is a little bit of impetus on the listener also to appreciate that that's happening. Does it sound like someone who's deeply invested or are they sort of casually disparaging it? Exactly. Yeah. And think like, okay, if I'm this passionate about species X, maybe, and I feel like I know all this stuff. Maybe they also know all these stuff and they're not just, yeah, spouting roads for no reason. Yeah, exactly. I guess you see that a lot in a lot of different areas. You know, I guess that Dunning-Kruger syndrome or whatever, you have very little knowledge. So all of a sudden you think you're the expert and you

don't realize how much there is to know and how much some of these folks probably forgotten, you know, compared to what you know in that area, especially if it's not an area of your expertise or excitement. So yeah, I think there's, there is an impetus on the listener to, to do their due diligence as well and not just assume that everybody's an idiot, but them that's one of my favorite Homer Sipson quotes. Everybody's stupid, but me. Absolutely. You know, it is hard. I guess we all have that kind of personal bias, like, you know, what we like and what we know and what we get excited about. And that's, that's fair,

but also recognize that everybody has that, you know, everybody has something that they are very passionate about and excited about and probably very knowledgeable about as well. And that, you know, if you've and you know, leave room for growth if somebody's new and they're excited and you know, I was listening to a podcast and they were talking about a species of, you know, rare species of gecko in the hobby and they didn't know where it came from. about a species of rare species of gecko in the hobby and they didn't know where it came from. And I'm like, come on guys, like at least know where the species you spent 10 grand on a pair, where they came from. I mean, they probably did. They probably just left

their mind. I know how that works too. I have plenty of things losing, leave my mind in the moment, but yeah. So I guess both sides, you know, be a little patient with people too, especially if they're just excited about something. I actually had an example of that recently where I was listening to a podcast and they were talking about Oridura and I was all excited. Oh, they've got these different species in the country. And so I went and looked on their page and like, Oh, that doesn't look like what I expected to look like. You know, so I questioned, I'm like, Are you sure that's that species? And he's, he was really nice about it. He's like, Well, you know, here's, here's a couple examples of, of ones that look similar

to this. And, you know, it's might've lost a little color because it's in captivity versus out in the wild. And that and the other, and I'm like, Oh, what a beautiful response. You know, he didn't like, I know what I've got. Leave me alone. You idiot. You know, like, and, and, or, Oh, what a beautiful response. You know, he didn't like, I know what I've got. Leave me alone. You idiot You know like and or oh, well this guy he's he's been in it longer than me So he probably knows better. So maybe I should just call him nothing, you know, like so yeah I think I think it goes both ways because I you know, I was honestly Asking like because I in my experience I hadn't seen he like that But I mean my experience is also very limited.

You know, I, I saw them in a very limited part of their range and they extend much further than that range and looking just on Flickr or, you know, Google images, I saw a lot more that looked similar to what the ones they had in captivity. So again, you know, yeah, we don't know everything and somebody in a position like that, probably very much more passionate if they're importing the species somebody in a position like that probably very much more passionate if they're importing the species from Europe and things like that. So yeah, cool. Just bringing that humility and that's awesome for all of us all the time.

So yeah, I think that functions both ways, honestly for both arguments. It's saying both would be well served by the way. Okay, well, am I approaching it with passion, an open mind, humility, those sorts of things. That's true for both. For sure. And I guess people always expect people are going to grow. If you listen to the first season of MPR and you listen to the 16th season of MPR, they're going to be a little different. They're getting better at the podcasting thing. They have worked out which questions are easier

to ask. And I think too, we think, oh, that's not how that interview should have gone. Sometimes they just had complete bombs dropped on them with guests where they just before the, just before the podcast started, they said, I don't want to talk about this. And you're like, Oh, that's why we had you on here. You know, that's the whole reason we came here. So yeah, that's a ha have some understanding, you know, behind the scenes that that's sometimes how it goes. You sometimes have to really work hard to get the simplest of answers out of guests. And other times you can't even get them to shut up and they're just spouting nonsense and you have no control. And I think anybody that's podcasted more than six or seven episodes probably knows that as well. It can just be a train wreck sometimes and you just got

to embrace it and move on, you know, and say, well, here goes that one. What do you do? You know? So, yeah, I mean, they're not all that's part of the, I do think we have the advantage now that there is so much content that we can be more selective in terms of, I know the old, um, initially reptile radio thing, and we actually saw it come to full fruition there where it was like the Reptile Radio thing was initially, they were never going to skip a week because of the concern that once you miss that sort of schedule or rotation, or even our thing, we've had what this last four or five, six episodes was on a calendar of general date that we do it, but it's like, okay, this week We know is not gonna work. So would it's a pre-planned thing. But yeah, Reptile Radio

I think they did it every week to Tuesday maybe Initially they had a date switch just like a VR but It was like okay It's this day and they did it every day for two two and a half three years something like that Yes they say oh this when they first started the show, right, the passion is so high that it was like, even when, what are we going to do when whatever Tuesday night

is Christmas? And they're like, no, we're doing it anyway. You know, and then three years later, that comes to be the case. And then they don't do it. And it was like, they were supposed to take a week off. And then it turned in that turned into two weeks, they came back for one and missed three more and you know and all this stuff. And it's like, I know Eric and I talked a lot, but if you don't have a schedule, you

can be irregular as long as there's a schedule. But if there isn't, then it's really tough to just find and make the time to do it. And that's not the thing. Yeah. And I think too, when lives change, like with Chuck, his personal life changed and it was just very difficult for him to find the time. And so, that happens. And it's a little difficult because we love Chuck and it was fun to have him as a co-host, but you just got to do what you got to do.

His life and what he was pursuing at the time was more important than doing a Reptile podcast. That's very fair. I can't, oh, come on, Chuck. Just ignore that stuff and come chat here. That reminds me, that's the same thing we were just talking about when we did the last show where it's like I think I had presented it as sort of the bill of goods if you want to take it as such of reptile breeding projects is that just the consistency of showing up every day, keeping consistent conditions, all those things, stacking days, stacking months, stacking years is half the battle.

It's the people who are really invested in keeping that consistency that we see do well. And the same is true with the podcast stuff. Right, for sure. And I think too, like, I mean, it is a passion thing for us. Like, we're not getting any monetary benefit out of this. You know, I think, you know, in a roundabout way, maybe you'll get more people

listening and taking you seriously as a breeder as well. So they might buy your animals or things like that. But for the most part, we don't have any advertising. We don't want to be beholden to anybody. If we miss a week, we don't want somebody, hey, you didn't peddle my products. Exactly. Pay that sponsorship back kind of thing. So there is some freedom in that regard. But then you look at a podcast like Smart List and they're making millions of dollars off their podcast. I guess that's a whole different animal. But I think that's, I guess my long way of saying, you get what you pay for, where most of the reptile podcasts out there don't cost a cent to listen to. And they just are happy that people are listening,

you know, happy to be doing it. Yeah, that's the thing. And honestly, you know, I don't even have the sort of breeder incentive connection or whatever, you know, I'm not telling stuff so that it's like being in a space of, to me, it's awesome to talk to you. It's awesome to talk about this stuff. And it gives me a Context to reach out to dr. Zack or Bob's Apple already Dr. Nipper, you know all these sorts things that it's like maybe I wouldn't make time for in my or have have a

You know a context right have a reason that beyond just sort of want to talk to him or whatever it's kind of gives us a a Free context to have those conversations and it allows us to build in the time to do it. So to me, that's really the enjoyment to me. And if anyone else gets anything from it, that's all the better. For sure. Yeah. And I mean, I think too, our lives are getting more and more busy and we're having less and less time for chats on the phone with reptile friends or

other friends. So I think too, I find myself filling that gap with the podcast because like you said, it's an excuse to chat about cool things with people you like and meet new people. And we've gotten to know a lot of, I mean, Dustin Grann is a great example of that. We wouldn't have known him without hearing him on the podcast or bringing him on. And I mean, we've gotten to know a lot of, I mean, Dustin Grann is a great example of that. You know, we, we wouldn't have known him without hearing him on the podcast or bringing him on, you know, hearing him on NPR. And hearing us and saying, hey, you know, and then it turns into you get actual relationships

from it. Right. Yeah. And he's a, he's a great friend. You know, that's, he's one of my better friends in the reptile hobby, you know, that kind of thing. I'll just from that kind of connection and you guys and, you know, all the, all the folks from back in the NPR forum days and stuff. So, you know, lots of good things can come from, from doing a podcast. And, and I think too,

like, um, it's, it's nice to maybe one of the responsibilities or one of the, the, uh, parts of this is that we are, we can also put, also put people out there that maybe people haven't heard of or don't know about or have a different type of getting Joe Mendelson on here and having him talk about his research. Who knows how many people have ever heard of him and how many cool things he's done and adventures he's had and things like that. That's pretty cool. I don't know. It's fun to meet new people and to hear their story and what's going on in their reptile brains, I guess. Their brains thinking about reptiles. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, part of that too, right, is we're missing some of the context that

we were raised on in terms of either what be it books or Reptiles magazine fauna magazine right reptile and amphibian hobbyist the vivarium, you know These sorts of things that it's like those, you know eagerly anticipated I know you just as much that I were you standing by the mailbox that sort of thing I wanted to patch you up and you know The back issues and all that sort of stuff that doesn't exist in the same way. And with all the social media stuff, it's so transient. It's just like, if you're not explicitly looking at, you know, even before we got on, right,

you're telling me a couple different things, I got to go check out. And it's like, I've just been busy for a week. If I don't then seek out those particular people, it's like it never happened. Right. At least it would stack on itself. It would be impossible to miss. Yeah. I remember the whole drama of, okay, I've got to go to work and I'm going to go, when

I come home, I'm going to check out and see who said what. Yeah. You have to catch up on the threads. Yeah. You can't do that now. It's too overwhelming. I think podcasts is a venue to get back to that long form discussion or at least longer lasting.

I mean, heck, the Cardinal Sin, even more so than having a short running podcast is the people. I'm happy to say, if anyone wants, this could be a fight topic. I'm happy to, maybe we'll talk to Nick about this. But anyone who does a podcast and puts in that time and effort and gets that time and effort from their guests and then arbitrarily that information just one day that archive is gone and those shows are no longer available. I will go to the mat on that. That won't be a, oh, I see both sides fight. I'm ready to go. So there have been several where that's been the case.

It hasn't been even the host. It's been, oh, in our case, it would be if Eric just decided one day arbitrarily the whole archive is gone. The record is gone. That's what's happened to folks. It's Reptile Radio. They'd sort of did it to themselves because they, oh, we're going to put all of it on the Bush League Breeders Club website.

And then, well, that's not internet archived because you had to be able to log in. Right. And then, you know, one day you lose interest, stop doing it, eventually stop paying the bill. Yeah. And it's gone. And it's gone, yeah. Fortunately for me, you know,

the good news with the Apple podcast, iTunes or whatever, is that it at least used to just sort of download that stuff in the background. So I actually wound up having essentially all the Reptile radios because it had been auto downloaded onto the computer. So I have all these episodes that are otherwise gone, but there are plenty of podcasts. You know, I had Coral's radio, Nick's show, Vin's show, onto this box of, I know those shows happened and I

know there was cool stuff that I enjoyed and now it's just gone. Yeah. I guess that's a very difficult thing too because I find myself too not being able to keep up with the current stuff. So I'm not going back and listening to stuff 10 years ago unless there was really a cool, unless there was really a cool, you know, like, Oh, that was a cool episode. I got to listen to that one again. And there's, there's a few that I've listened to several times, you know, that you go back to and listen and that might be a fun topic to kind of bring up

like the hall of fame podcast episodes that you just, just really enjoyed listening to. And then I mean, that's all personal anyway, like, you know, you get a different thing than maybe. And even remembering how you heard it at the time, you know, like taking you back, you know, in that sense of like, oh, I was at this different place and I was keeping this stuff and I remember listening as I'm feeding out, whatever, you know, and this sort of stuff. So exactly.

And, you know, what you kind of learned or built on, sometimes we may even forget that it just becomes a part of our background. You know, like, oh, I didn't come up with that. I heard it on a reptile podcast, you know, or I read it in reptiles magazine or something, you know, it just becomes a part of your knowledge base in a lot of ways. So sometimes we take that for granted, you know, like what we heard or whatnot. But, you know, I guess, yeah, that's another question altogether. Like, how do you leave this as a legacy? Or, you know, is it worth putting in the permanent record? Does the Library of Congress download every episode of a podcast?

What's worth saving and archiving? That's kind of a cool point. And yeah, what happens if it is Eric archiving? We ought to chat with him about that and find out where everything's being stored or the physical form of each episode. That might be something that's worth putting on the cloud somewhere or where we all have access to or something. But crazy to think about that. It is nice though that we've kept this train running for as long as we have. And I'm still enjoying it. It's still been a fun time. That's the thing. There are so many shows that I want to do. It's one thing to say there are shows that we want to do that don't make sense or can't happen or the people

don't want to do them. There are others where it's like, no, well, or we haven't even asked yet. It's in my mind, but we haven't talked about it or we've talked about it and they've said yes, but we haven't made it work and all that stuff. So that's the other Simpsons, but got to stick to the script. Never fear. We have stories for years. Yeah, exactly. I think actually there are. And the cool part about it is that it's not some constrained universe. I'm sure there are people, someone maybe just starting today, the two years from now, be thrilled to talk to you.

I think part of we've expanded our universe by trying to incorporate so much field herb talk so that that's that many more people. I think in that space, honestly, there's so much more room for people to become experts within their own niche, be it their regional staff or just somebody who gets super excited about OIDURA or whatever it might be. It's easy enough to Nick Vine, right? It's been keeping staff and whatever, but it's like, okay, well, there's an up and coming guy where it's like, you don't have to be at this point keeping anything because it's all about go makes go

Make some stories and things that'll be great to talk to you and what was funny is he had contacted me as a high school student because I put out a Video of rock monitors in the wild and he was really interested in rock monitors He was doing a report in school. So he called me up and we interviewed me and stuff. And, and I, that, that had gone to kind of the back of my mind. I'd forgotten that, you know, and then, uh, we were on a herp trip, you know, herping central Australia and this 20 year old, you know, 20, 22 year old kid, uh, with a bunch of 50 year olds is his mom put it, you know, out herping Australia. It's pretty cool.

But yeah, we could have great conversations and he was as passionate or more passionate than the rest of us. So it was really great. Yeah, I really enjoy that. And also the other thing that kind of came to mind is having folks like Richard Ross on a podcast episode and having that interview with him and having that in the permanent record of hearing him talk about his book. And having been able to do it. Out of that, he and Keith form this friendship. And so Keith's like, Richard Ross keeps texting me. Yeah. Pictures of stingrays and whatever, you know, it's just like, so cool from because of the podcast.

Yeah. Yep. So I think there's a lot of great things that can happen, you know, when you have that passion, that attitude and that, that I guess thought about your responsibility to, to keep the train running and to put good information out there and to get these legends on your podcast. Because sometimes it's just a matter of asking them. Nobody's asked them. They're just a name on a dust jacket or something. You don't think about, hey, let's get them on the podcast. So that's kind of the exciting thing. And yeah, it's a lot of the fun of doing these things is the people you meet and the

associations you make. And that's something that's very cool. So I guess we do benefit much more than monetarily in that regard. I think that's where it is. Yeah, for sure. And you have folks throughout the country and throughout the world that you can maybe call on if you're in their neighborhood and they'll go out herping with you and have some good times. Or folks that I've just listened to on podcasts and looked them up or called

them up or messaged them. Sure. Yeah. We're going to be visiting one of those on our upcoming trip. So just cool people, you know, that you hear about on these podcasts. So they have like the same interests you do. That's really a fun way to do this. So yeah, I don't know that we've even scratched the surface with this, but I think we've put some good ideas out there. Any kind of final thoughts or other topics we didn't bring up? I don't think so. I think this is a good primer for what we'll record next week. So Matthew Wayne, not another Reptile podcast, I think.

It kind of fits very much in this vein of just beautiful guy who's doing a great thing and coming, you can tell just emanates passion and things. We're going to go on there. I was on there previously. Ellen, Eric, Nipper's been on there. So Lucas, all these folks and things. And just even that's part of the fun too is like that gives them a, it's a different person asking questions differently in such a way that like, even people that I know really well, I'm hearing them have say things, have opinions, express themselves in ways that they don't normally when I engage them because I engage in a certain way.

So I think that's a beauty to it too. It's just bringing their own, not trying to mimic what someone else is doing or, you know, and maybe the style looks the same. I know Dr. Zach, right, has mentioned that in terms of the colubrid and colubrid. Oh, I want to do NPR but for colubrids. But, you know, making it their own and asking questions in such a way, you know, that's the whole thing, right? That's the other CardinalCinna podcasting is not actually having a conversation. It's instead trying to get to the end rather than just following the course of the conversation. So that you're yadda yadding, you know, death's on my trips or whatever.

It's like, okay, no, just have a real conversation. Because you're not me having that conversation, I'll hear, I'm sure when I listen to you with Matthew that I'm going to I listen to you with Matthew, that I'm going to hear you say stuff that we haven't talked about because he's asking the question. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, his perspective and his journey is a little different than any of ours. But we also have a lot of commonalities and excitement about the same kind of thing. So that really helps you see things from other points of view.

And yeah, like you said, answer questions and bring out new information that maybe we don't know about each other, haven't heard before. So yeah, definitely an exciting thing. And yeah, it's also fun to go on other podcasts. And sometimes I feel like, okay, if you've listened to me before, you've heard my story, you know, I don't want to repeat that again.

But sometimes that brings up new memories too, the way they ask it. You tell a story about your childhood that you've forgotten about or hadn't told in previous, previous recordings. That's absolutely happened to me. Yeah, right. So yeah, I think this is a fun medium for sure. And, you know, I'm glad we have this. I, again, you know, you kind of get what you pay for you got to, there is some some, you know, less, less thorough or less researched or whatever, however you want

to say it, or, or just kind of the passing one that does their five or six episodes and then bails, you know, that's, it's always frustrating because there's some good ones that have started and just haven't got off the ground. I mean, I, I'm an example of that. I, I started one and it just didn't go very far because I didn't make a schedule. I didn't, you know, it was kind of more, uh, work and effort. This one's a little, you know, I don't necessarily have to do all such preparation. You know, I don't have to read a paper or something to prepare for it. So, but you know, I did enjoy doing that and I'm glad somebody took the reins and is doing a much better

job than, than I did with that idea, you know, of discussing scientific literature and things. And there's no shortage of scientific literature. I mean, that's the thing. It's like you can't even scratch the surface with a weekly podcast or... Yeah. So, yeah, good stuff. But I don't know, I've really enjoyed doing this with you and I'm really glad that you agreed to do this because you've definitely been brought in a different perspective and

also different people you're encountering and bringing on the podcast. It's been fantastic. So thank you for being a great co-host. Yeah, no worries. Well, thanks for putting it out. Yeah. Where it's just, you know, that was the thing. I was listening to you and Chuck, you know, and I love that.

It's one of these things where there are a few exceptions. The episodes that I'm super excited about, generally speaking, I don't listen to the stuff that we're putting out. So it's great to me to have stuff to listen to. So no, it's been really good. And yeah, I'm just thankful that folks agree to come on, that you're here every week, always excited to do it. Yeah, I think the future is bright and so much cool stuff to talk about and get excited about and stuff. For sure. Nice. Well, any cool things in the last few weeks that you've come across?

Yeah. I've been, as I say, just kind of busy. I don't know that I have the sort of usual thing ready to go. I will say that I have seen a lot of the stuff that Rob Christian's been doing and that's been really cool. They just had, I should look it up for the form of the thing. They just had someone on the podcast that I really enjoyed. Yeah.

I was listening to them as well. I mean, I really liked their podcast. They do a good job with that one. Yeah. Let me see. This is super compelling radio. So I feel free to go ahead. I will.

No, I, I, I listened to, uh, I got back into Ryan Dumas's podcast, Let's Talk Tortoes. And they had a, an episode that kind of caught my eye. Actually, a friend told me about it, about Russian tortoises and the fact that there's all these different subspecies of Russian tortoise. And that might be a reason why they're not as commonly bred in captivity is because they may be coming in from different areas and they're not compatible. Yeah, and they know it, but we don't. We're missing those subtle cues, so that was pretty cool. I really like Ryan and his ideas. We need to get him back on here soon. He's got a lot of good ideas for, for fight club topics, but yeah, I enjoy his. And yeah, like we said, Matthew's not another reptile podcast.

I'm excited to go on this, this week. And it looks like Frank Colachico is making the rounds and I listened to a couple of his interviews on a couple different. Yeah. Yeah. I love the, just love the enthusiasm, man. That's right. Field herping enthusiasm. Yeah.

And just the diversity of stuff that he's talking about or interested in and, and has experience with, it's really fun to hear about far off places that you've maybe hadn't considered. I'd never considered herping Oman as a as a possibility But he made it sound like oh, yeah, it's very safe. You just go there and do it You know, it's like, okay and hearing about the people where he had they they have a friend there that just says yeah here Take my truck and gives him like the keys to this brand new truck to go out herping It's like man. Those are some cool people. You know, I need more friends like that. But yeah.

Well, and then we would be remiss not to mention. So last last episode, we had talked to Joe of the colubrid corruption podcast. And you know, if you have interest in colubrids, he just has all these awesome guests on right?? Your local neighbor, Joel Reap, was on there a couple months back. That was good. Dr. Kevin Messenger, right? Fascinating story. A professional herpetologist working at a university in China can't get more fascinating than that. Asian rat snakes are a hugely interesting group, whether you're passionate about them or not. So yeah, I suppose that's been most of the stuff I've been taking in at this point. And then obviously, blame Mazzetti, the Mazzetti's find snakes, that YouTube channel, I did just

see a couple of those, it's getting towards the good season for them turning step up. And I just all again, what are the attractions to me, Obviously, there's a coming through line and it's his enthusiasm, perpetual enthusiasm, even for seeing sort of the same stuff. Or he's not a huge crowd of this guy, but the rubber were starting to come out and watching that show, that episode. And, you know, easy, even excited for him. It's like, oh, you know, I haven't seen one that looks like this. Or this is the board that usually has them, you know

And this stuff so just the enthusiasm and excitement is always good. That's cool Yeah on the reptile talk podcast with Rob and who's who does he do that with? Jeremy yeah, that's right He they had Johnny Felicity on there the chingle back man. Yeah They had Johnny Felicity on there, the Chingleback Man. Yeah. So yeah, that was one that I enjoyed that they did recently. That's good stuff. And then Ryan and Nick talking about their Indotrip.

I'll have to check it out. Yeah, well, maybe you have to get them on to see, to have them talk about it. Yeah, it's, well, yeah, well, maybe you have to get them on to see, have them talk about, yeah, exactly. Or kind of talk about that aspect of herping where it's more of a guided tour where the guys run and find it and climb up the tree and bring it down and have you photographed. It seemed like that was kind of like it was very hard herping and they're not climbing a 30 foot tree to catch a tree monitor.

So it's kind of interesting. Like you wouldn't see them otherwise. So I think in that case, it's probably worth doing that because to see them in the wild is worth having somebody show you them maybe and maybe you spot one. I don't know. But it's interesting. Yeah. I'd be curious.

Yeah. But yeah. so good stuff. I saw a really nice photo of a Glebo Palma black palms rock monitor by Rob Valentine. Volentic is that you say? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Such a an amazing photographer. But yeah, it's crazy to see something like that in a in a nice photograph like that. And Chris Smith also saw one.

I don't know if they were together off to ask Chris, but yeah, they, he sent me a photo of one that he got and it's just like close up, you know, right on this rock, a beautiful pose and nice looking lizard. So yeah, we know how, how shy they can be. Yeah. Yeah. You're going to see a friendly Dutch girl before you see a Glebo. All right. Anyway, on that note, we'll thank Eric and Owen and MPR and we'll

catch you again next time for Reptile Fight Club.