Reptile Fight Club - Professional breeders vs. Hobbyist breeders.

Episode Date: May 13, 2021

In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the topic of professional breeders vs. hobbyist breeders.Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comWebsite: https://www.moreliapythonradio.netYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQ@MPR Network on FB and IG.Email: [e-mail]-spring store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to the MGR Network. Thank you. all right welcome to reptile fight club newest podcast in the morelia pythons radio network um first off we'd like to shout out to er Burke and Owen McIntyre, the podfather. And what's the character's name in The Godfather that breaks people's legs or whatever? I think that's what Owen thought that role he might play there. He associates best with. Yeah. So I can't remember the character's name anyway. Um, so thanks to Eric and Owen for getting this thing rolling and, and, uh, we're excited to be a part

of this, uh, this rapidly increasing group of podcasts. It's really an impressive body of work. Yeah. Thanks guys. Shout out. Yeah, for sure. Check out all their podcasts. Of course, we'll list them all at the end and I'm sure everybody knows who they are. If you're listening to this, you probably know all the, all the others anyway. Hopefully. Yeah. So I'm Justin Julander. You may have heard me a few times on the Morelia Pythons radio. I've been on there a few times and and good friends with Eric

and Owen we've done a couple her trips together great guys so I run an own Australian addiction reptiles I've been doing that since about 1997 98 somewhere around there and I'm my day job I guess will, is, is a virologist at Utah State University. I'm a research professor up there and study different viral diseases of humans in, in various models. So that's kind of how I pay the bills, but reptiles have always been a passion since I was a kid and continues to grow and develop. So it's just one of those things I can't shake, right? It's good stuff. All right. And with me is Chuck Poland. I'll let him introduce himself here. Yeah. Good evening. Yeah. Chuck Poland. I'm just a hobbyist breeder. I don't have a business of any sort. I have an undergraduate degree in environmental science

from San Diego State University. So I'm interested in ecology and species and animals and nature and all kinds of stuff like that. But my day job that pays the bills is, uh, I'm a military aerospace civilian. Uh, so I work on military aircraft for a living. Um, just really always kind of, um, been into reptiles, but, but, you know, and maybe the mid nineties got into it, got hooked into Morelia Python's forum, which, you know, is anybody who's been around for a while knows how that just led into, you know, the Facebook and then, and now the, the podcast era. So, uh, here we all are. Um, so, so yeah, just, uh, excited to, to be a part of this and, uh, last decade or two. I mean, it's been a little while since we met on Morelia pythons and we've hung out a few times, done a few reptile shows together. Uh, so Chuck's a great guy. He's, he's got a lot of cool things under his belt. He was, uh, one of the first, well,

the first person to breed, uh, Morelia traciae, the Helma Hera, uh, scrub twice in a row, two, two years in a row. And so, uh, pretty, pretty cool accomplishment there. That's a project that he's continuing to roll with. Um, you want to say a few words about that? That's, I don't know. It's pretty notable. Yeah. I mean, I feel pretty lucky. I definitely, um, you know, got blessed with a group that I got pretty young and just really hung in with them long term. And got to talk to great people like you, Justin, and Terry, Phillip, and guys that just put a lot of great stuff in my head. So I was fortunate enough to reproduce them two years ago and then again last year.

And they're taking this past season off, but I'm getting ready to see if we can breed them again this year. So I've I'm sitting on two clutches. So that's that's been super fun. It's you know, I keep getting hit up to move them out and I probably need to move them to people. But man, it's awfully hard when you have them in your house to want to let them go. So I'm holding on to them for right now. And, yeah, just we'll see. Hopefully the future brings good things.

That's cool, man. That's cool. So, yeah, like I said, Chuck and I have been friends for a while and we've been, you know, we call each other quite often and we have some really good discussions. And so kind of the idea behind the podcast, Reptile Fight Club, is that we are going to kind of take on some of those heavy hitting issues in herpetoculture, herpetology, science in general. We'll kind of talk about some of the topics that are hot on people's minds that may be a little controversial or contentious. And so here on the podcast, either, uh, Chuck and myself are going to kind of chat about a different topic and each of us will take a different side. Um, we'll decide who gets what topic by a coin toss. And so whoever wins the coin toss gets to kind of pick their side that they want to, uh, support or, uh, go against. Um, We may have guests on, we may have one guest and one of us will talk while

the other moderates on a certain topic, or we'll have two guests on that can talk about a topic in the field that they're experts in. And so hopefully you guys will enjoy this. Hopefully, you know, we can get some good discussion topics and you can see kind of both sides of the coin, as it were. You can see both sides of the topic and kind of choose for yourself which which side you align more with and which side, you know, you might not be too keen on. But I also hope that you might be able to see the other side and be able to understand where the other side is coming from. So or maybe something you hadn't considered in, in regards to that topic. So. Yeah, absolutely. Well said. Yeah. Should be, it should be fun. Hopefully, uh, we can, we can keep this rolling and get some good

discussion topics on here. Um, we've been trying to line up a few shows, uh, but we thought today we'd talk about, uh, professional breeders versus hobbyist breeders. So that's kind of the topic we've chosen to kind of discuss the benefits or the downsides of either of those sides. And then we'll debate that today. So we're going to have a little coin toss. I've got a quarter in my hand here and we'll let uh chuck call whether he wants heads or tails if he wins the coin toss he picks which side he defends so yeah go ahead all right all right you can call it in the air uh i'll call

it heads let's see what happens okay you go on. Yep. All right. Well, it's tails. Oh, man. Can't win them all. Yep. Yep. Apparently, I can't win that one either. I think I'll go with professional breeders. Really? Oh. Yeah.

I like that. Yeah. Nice. Okay. So, you're kind of taking hobbyist breeder. All right. So I don't let them down. It seems like a lot of people in the industry get into breeding reptiles and they have that dream of becoming a full-time breeder, right.

To be able to pay the bills and, and breed reptiles and make a living that way. And so, you know, I think there's room for that and there's definitely a need for that, right? So we've got a fairly good size industry. There's a lot of people that want reptiles and it almost seems like with this pandemic, we've seen kind of a shortage, like people, there's not a lot of reptiles around. And we also see as different countries put restrictions on, and again, this pandemic might bring some legislation along with it. That's, that's not really beneficial to our, our hobby or our, our industry. And so without professional breeders or breeders that are putting the time in and the space in and the money in to get different projects, we may lose a lot of different reptiles to herpetoculture. So I think it's very important that we have a source for captive bred animals. And that generally goes along with the professional breeder.

So I would kind of lead with that statement that we definitely need people that are invested, you know, have a big operation business that they can produce fairly good numbers, that they can distribute those numbers across the United States and also around the world for those interested in the species they're working with. So I'll kind of lead with that statement. So let's see what you got for the other side there. Well, yeah. I mean, I think I, you know, I'm not going to disagree with that, but I'm on the other side. So here I disagree. I think, you know, conversely, we're definitely seeing changes in global environment. We're seeing, you know, economic issues. We're seeing the pandemic and how that's playing out in legislation. And so I think the private hobbyist, you know, is kind of the small guy, but it allows them to focus a lot more succinctly on, you know, stuff that is rare and hard, becoming harder to find. Less and less animals are being imported from these countries that used to be pretty easy for us to get animals

from. And so, you know, I think there's definitely an opportunity for the hobbyist breeder to like I have a little bit with the Tracy eyes is kind of specialize and be that niche that, you know, doesn't really get, isn't out in the front of the reptile industry that we commonly see at shows. And I think that a lot of the success that I feel like I've had is because I've been able to kind of focus a little bit and not maintain a giant collection that, that I have to absolutely produce because I have overhead or I have all these other considerations. So I think it gives opportunity where, you know, perhaps maybe the professional can't afford to, you know, risk. So, I mean, you know, I definitely, and, you know, I think that

a lot of the opportunities around Facebook and social media and even these podcasts have come from not large scale industry. You know, I mean, you do see that. Don't get me wrong. There's big guys with YouTube channels doing crazy stuff. But there's also, you know, that small, very focused hobbyist who's coming on and kind of sharing their thing and doing their thing. So, you know, I think that it's an opportunity for the small guy to contribute in a way, um, and, and share some of that specialized stuff, uh, that they're doing, uh, and, and, you know, as a whole, um, continue to be that kind of overarching shell, uh, for, uh, and, and even more stressed, uh, environmental ecology that we're seeing have problems.

And it's unfortunate, you know, from my aspect or the way I see it is that, you know, the harder the problems get and the more we see environmental destruction, deforestation, global climate shift, the more these countries tend to clamp down on animals. So they become harder to get. And, you know, it's leveraging in the wrong direction, in my opinion, because you see, you know, animals being harder and harder to get. Meanwhile, their habitats are being destroyed. Well, you know, they're, they're going to disappear with no habitat. So, you know, it's kind of, it's kind of a, um, you know, uh, a stacked problem. Um, and so, you know, um, I think that's where the best, you know, the, one of the best avenues for, for hobbyists is, and, and there's, we still can get so much cool stuff, uh, that's rare and, and, and, and even endangered. And, um, I think, you know, the hard part, uh, uh, not to, not,

not to, uh, poo poo my side, but, uh, it is not getting those hard to breed or rare things in the right people's hands. Um, and you know, honestly, sometimes breeding rare stuff's a learning curve, you know, uh, it's not, you know, um, I'll jump in there because, uh, you know, I think that's where the, the professional breeders, I mean, they're, they're vested, you know, they're not going anywhere and they're also, you know, you've got to be pretty skilled to kind of stick around and continue being a professional breeder. And, you know, hobbyists can come and go. They can, you know, sell their collections, you know, in a short amount of time and move on and do different things, maybe come back later.

But a professional breeder, you know, they're dependent on that for their income. So they're definitely going to be good at, good at what they do, at least, you know, as far as marketing or, or, you know, I think in a lot of ways they start out being the expert, you know, they start out, of course they start out as a hobbyist, but then they keep it going. So I would contend that, uh, you know, with that experience and, and breeding things well enough to make it a full-time business probably means that they're the best in a lot of cases to have some of those rare species. Because if you have a lot of rare species in the hands of a hobbyist and things go

south or they need to focus on their work more or they're, you know, they have a kid and their wife says, you know, get rid of them. You know, the hobbyist can just get rid of those things. Right. And then you see a lot of animals getting passed around. And a lot of times those collections don't go to one person. They're just trying to liquidate them. So they sell them quick to make a good buck. And then, and then, you know, those animals usually don't do so great afterwards. It's not like they're moving the whole project to one person in most cases. You know, most people can't, especially if it's a rare or an expensive, you know, group of reptiles, they're only able to get maybe one or two animals from that collection and then the rest kind of gets split up. So even if you do have a, a good project from a hobbyist, um, and if they can't do it anymore, then, you know, that's kind of a problem. And maybe that's a topic for another discussion, but I would say if you're, if, Oh, go ahead. No, I was just going to say, no. And I agree with you. I don't, I don't think any of that's off point, but I also think that, you know, uh, the, the easy

way out of that for a professional breeder is just breed stuff that's fairly easy to breed. Right. I mean, that's why, you know, that's why a lot of professional breeders like ball python morphs and things like that, because they're not that hard to breed. They're fairly reliable and they have a fairly steady market share, you know. So, I mean, and I do hear what you're saying. And, you know, I think that most professional breeders can have their kind of off to the side likes and stuff like that. But, you know, how many professional breeders do you know knocking Bowen's pythons out of the water? Yeah, I mean, and you've got a point that, that breeders have to kind of focus on those things, but at the same time, um, you know, if they've got the facilities, they've got the room and, and we do see a few of those, uh, people who have selected to, to

focus on reptiles for their, for their professional, um, business, then we do see some of those guys, quite a few of them having those, I guess you call them side projects, but I would contend that those are part of their, their breeding projects. So, you know, it's hard to say that's a side project because if they're successful, of course, it's going to be a benefit to their business. What, what big breeder doesn't want to have the, that kind of, uh, this prestige of, of being a Bowens python breeder or, or breeding some other rare or difficult to work with species. So, um, I, I do. And I mean, it's easy for them to have it off to the side. Right. And if they start, if they start getting a pair that are start producing for them continuously cool great good

that's just you know um that's just you know more uh more gold for the treasure box uh but i you know i don't i don't think that you see um you don't you don't see big breeders making those animals main focuses why because they're hard to breed because they're inconsistent breeders making those animals main focus is why? Because they're hard to breed, because they're inconsistent breeders, because they take a lot of time. And when you hold a lot of overhead, when you, you know, potentially couldn't produce for a couple of years, you're kind of a farmer, man. If your crop goes bad a couple of years, you're in trouble. You're in trouble. And so, you know, high risk, you know, potentially high reward, but also highly dangerous. And that's why, yeah, it's easy for them to put, you know, an animal like Bolin's pythons in the lineup, but you don't see them doing it as a main thing a main thing. Uh, and, and I guess that goes

to my point of, you know, hobbyist breeders can specialize and that's why they can knock stuff like Bolin's pythons out because that, you know, that a big, a big breeder is just going tub to tub to tub, to tub, to tub, to tub, doing what he needs to do to get animals fed and conditioned and keep them healthy. Whereas that hobbyist breeder, he's checking in on his stuff. He's watching it. He's making little mental notes. He's going year to year. And he's bleeding money right out his nose every year because he's not making money off of it.

But on the converse side, when it hits, it's nice. You know what I mean? And I think that the hobbyist can provide some valuable detail to the professional breeders, even though those professional breeders are the quote unquote pros, uh, uh, you know, in, in, in the field, um, because they, you know, they do produce a lot of animals, but I, I guess my thing is like, what animals are they producing? Sure. Sure. Yeah. I, I would, I would, you know, as long as we're talking about pythons, I would say who, who is the biggest name in pythons? What, what name comes to mind when you think of pythons? It's the barkers, right? And how many hard to breed, difficult to breed species have they produced?

They've done it. I mean, their, their count of how many species they've, they've bred exceeds as anyone, as far as I know. So, and they've been around a very long time and have done a very good job at this. So again, you know, those professional breeders that have a lot of years under their belt, a lot of knowledge that, you know, where their livelihood depends on them knowing their reptiles, I think is, is very important. Um, and, and, and very, you know, probably the basis of the industry here is, is having those, um, breeders that can produce, um, uh, the animals

that we, that we need in, in herpetoculture. Um, you know, of course they, they have their bread and butter species, but most of them don't just work with those bread and butter species, but have quite a few other, maybe more rare or more difficult to breed species. So I would, I would, uh, say that again, you know, that, that longevity, that, uh, consistency, that's probably, uh, a little bit more important and, uh, and, and re also requires, um, that dedication and that, uh, um, will to, to keep it going, you know, and so they, they need that to, to keep going. So, um, it puts a little more pressure and, but also, uh, can, can be a little more rewarding in some ways as well.

So, um, I'm not saying it's for, for everybody or that, that, you know, there, there's a limit to how many professional breeders there can be, I would say, because, you know, once you get to a certain saturation point, you know, you're beyond that. I believe Alan Rapashi gave a talk at a conference that I was attending and speaking at as well. And he talked about professional breeders in the U.S. and said that there was room for, I think, you know, 50 to 100 or something. And that was, you know, a decade or more ago. And so, you know, there's room more ago. And so, you know, we, we, there, there can, there, there's room for quite a few of these breeders. And, uh, um, I, I would, I guess I would say a professional breeder, you know, maybe defining it as, as somebody who

depends on their livelihood for, but through breeding reptiles. So, um, or, or, you know, involving reptiles in some way, because there's more ways than one to, to kind of, um, or, or, you know, involving reptiles in some way, because there's more ways than one to, to kind of, um, make a living with reptiles. There's, there's a lot of people who have been educators and, and, you know, YouTube stars or whatever you want to call them that are using reptiles and educating people about reptiles. So, I mean, are we also including people who import for a living, who bring animals in and sell them as their primary source of income? Because they're a part of the market too. And I mean, honestly, you know, if it wasn't for Cam at Bushmasters, I wouldn't have my Tracy Eye. Exactly. You're helping me win the debate here. So yeah. Well, you know, I'm just, I'm just saying, I'm just saying that, that there's a, well, there's a whole downside to that as well, but,

um, you know, but you said it's very, very important and we need those guys or else we wouldn't have the species we do. Yeah. And I mean, yeah, somebody like Cam, who's been around so long has been doing this for a very long time and is connected. You know, he's got those connections that you just can't build overnight. You know, you've got to have those connections to be able to, to get things from certain areas. And you almost have to specialize. It seems like he specializes in a few different areas of the world and can get stuff that may be difficult to get. And, and to be clear, I mean, you know, I did use importers as a source of professional breeding, but a lot of the people who are buying those animals are hobbyists. A lot of those animals are hard to get. They're not produced in captivity. So they're wild caught animals that, uh, need to be established in, in captivity and, and, um, you know, put,

put in, uh, to, to, uh, successful breeding programs. So, um, I, and, you know, um, I'm not saying that there's not professional breeders doing that, but a lot of where those animals end up is in the hobbyists hands. Well, I would say that, um, for, for people like, uh, some of these importers where they typically have some, some people, uh, generally professional breeders that are close by that have their kind of finger on the pulse, not to say that a hobbyist can't get some of those animals, but I, I imagine that the first pass is usually through somebody who's doing this for their livelihood. Because if you're waiting for an importer to give you a heads up when he gets something in, you really have to stay on top of that.

And so if you're the one that's, you know, your business depends on you getting some different animals or different projects. And sometimes they're getting those projects to then sell to hobbyists, you know, as kind of maybe flipping them as part of their business model. So they do need to have those connections with the importers as well. And they're the ones that are going over there when the shipments come in. They've got a good, you know, friendship or professional association with these importers. And the big breeders are the ones, the professional breeders are the ones that are able to get those animals before anybody else. And so they can kind of pick out the best specimens, the youngest specimens to raise up and or maybe a gravid specimen to get some, you know, captive born animals right away and give them that advantage in different breeding projects. So basically what you're saying is you win because of me. Is that what you're saying? Well, maybe that part of the topic. Those pro breeders, you know, they get in there and get

the job done and, you know, make sure they have the animals they need. And, you know, they, they get in there and get the job done and, and, you know, make sure they have the animals they need. And, and, you know, I, I think that's, that's an important part of the hobby. Um, and a lot of times they'll get things established and move on animals that they maybe don't fit into their projects or they need to move, you know, um, for, for one reason or another, but they're the ones getting that first pass on, on the animals that come into importers a lot of times. Um, did you get yours directly from an importer or were you able to get your Tracy, um, directly, or did you have to get them from a kind of a middleman, I guess? Well, they came from cam. So, um, I mean, obviously cam bought from somebody or, or, or exported them himself, but, uh, yeah, my, mine

were, you know, good shape. I, I never, I never did anything with them. Never wormed them, never nothing, nothing, just kept them, acclimated them, bred them, done. So, um, yeah. And, and, you know, I mean, I think, you know, to continue, you know, it's one of those things where most people are who get into reptiles or start out as an enthusiast and then they become a keeper and then they end up a breeder, a hobbyist breeder. And I would say that's a the that is a reliable trajectory for a lot of reptile people. And I think it's very natural. I think part of the fascination for us mammals is how different reptiles are than we are. And you start to get interested in the physiology and the reproductive biology. And, oh, wow, I can do this. Other people do this. I can do this. That's awesome. That's cool. So, you know, I mean, I understand that, you know, how important the professional breeder is in supplying a lot of those hobbyists, uh, with, with animals, but without hobbyists, uh, which are, you know, um, your evolved, uh, entry-level keeper, none of this happens anyway. So, you know, it, it, I think

maybe we're talking chicken and the egg argument here a little bit. Uh, but, um, you know, I, I, I, the professional breeders definitely need somebody to buy their animals. So, you know, definitely hobbyists have their place, but I, but I think when you're talking like, who is this, who is this industry built on? I would, I would say it would be more along the lines of the, the professional breeder or the people who, you know, dedicate their lives to keeping and breeding these animals. Um, you know, of course the, the hobbyist breeder has a place in this, but without the professional breeders, I would also like to bring up the topic of, um, you know, how, how we keep this going, right. With all the legislation coming down the pipeline. And we see that usually

the, or, or, you know, the, the professional breeders are on the forefront of fighting these issues, you know, contribute by either through contributing animals or contributing, um, different products or supplies for, for raffles or auctions where they get money to support places like USARC. And of course, shout out to USARC, which is defending our rights as hobbyists and keepers and professional breeders. Professional breeders. Of course. And the fact that there are professional breeders and people generating, uh, revenue through, through the reptile trade, um, really, uh, that that's what, uh, is going to speak to politicians and other things. If they see that it's going to have an negative economic impact to stop the reptile trade, that that's going to make them think

twice rather than, you know, a bleeding heart hobbyist that says, I really want to keep my snakes. And, you know, money talks when it comes to those kinds of things a lot of times. So I think, uh, you know, when fighting legislation, you need those big players who again are vested, they need to keep this going so they can support their families and so they need the reptile uh hobby and trade to be viable or else you know they're out of a job whereas the hobbyist can be like well that's a bummer but they can move on and keep their day job kind of thing you know so yeah um they're going to be on the forefront of fighting that legislation and contributing lots of resources i I mean, you see

the, the different companies, reptile based companies that are contributing tens of thousands, if not more, uh, dollars to, to the cause of, you know, use USARC or, or other organizations that are out there to help fight those, uh, legislative initiatives. So again, those professional breeders are very key in that effort and very important to keeping the hobby alive. What you got for me, man? What you got? Well, I mean, you know, so a study that was done, and I think this was done, um, kind of when the first, uh, wave of legislation came out after us and U S art kind of commissioned to study, uh, for, uh, uh, from Georgetown, uh, economic services that kind of looked at the, the, the total, um, you know, uh, profit that is created by the reptile industry. Um, and it, and it said in 2009 that, uh, uh, 4.7 million

U S households owned 13.6 million pet reptiles. So, um, you know, that, that, uh, that certainly is a big number and, uh, you know, no doubt, uh, you know, to be honest, uh, you, you know, it's, uh, it's kind of one of those things where, of course, the professional breeders pay in US ARC because they can't afford to lose. And I think you definitely see the hobbyist asking, everyone to support. So I think from, you know, in an omission of honesty, you definitely get the plus when it comes to the legislative portion of it. And so, you know, and I, you know, I think maybe some of that comes out of selfish interest, but all to a good cause, right? And I think, but, you know, conversely, I think that there's an awful lot of reptile keepers, hobbyist reptile keepers out there who are putting in, you know, money. And so, you know, if you go back to your Alan Rapashi, 50 professional reptile breeders in the U.S.

argument versus the number of hobbyist breeders, I would be interested to see how those numbers parse out. I, I, I mean, you know, I think you could look back to, um, grassroots, um, election campaigns and see how Bernie Sanders did with a, with a grassroots campaign, uh, of, of small donations from, um, all of his, um, you know, uh, potential voters versus how the RNC did with a lot of these super PACs and big money. And he really came through hard. So smaller donations, larger numbers, smaller numbers, larger donations. I don't know how that works out exactly. I'm not sure what the money distribution looks like, but I certainly think that hobbyist breeders can be out at the forefront of contributions to stave off a lot of this. And let's be honest, you know, 50, 50 large reptile breeders versus hundreds of hobbyist breeders who are putting inputs. And if you truly believe that these lawmakers listen to the average person, you know, and I think if you're looking at a state level, absolutely they do.

Those lawmakers listen to their constituents, maybe at a federal level. I don't know anymore. I'm not to, and, and, you know, to stay out of the political debate here, but you know, I certainly think, and I remember when we had a, a potential ban of reptiles in my city Chula Vista and a group of us hobbyists showed up there. Lauren from Triple L was there. But what really killed it, in my opinion, from just being there was the number of people who showed up. And those people were in large part, you know, weren't big reptile people.

They were small hobbyist breeders and they shut that down. They shut that down real quick. So, you know, definitely have a place. But I think, you know, when you're talking big, big dollars, you know, usually if a keeper has an extra 10 bucks in their pocket, you know, they're probably going're probably going to want to spend it on their, on another reptile or something, you know, but if you're trying to keep your, your dream alive, you're going to, you're going to donate a lot more to the cause. So, you know, maybe, maybe the, the amount of, from the smaller breeders makes up for what the, the big breeders contribute. It would be an interesting, I guess we should have looked into that, right? Yeah, I mean – Got that from USAR. Yeah, there's – yeah.

And, I mean, I think there's probably – to be honest, there's probably – that study was done specifically to make a specific economic argument at a time. So I'm not so sure that's something that's really gets tracked or, or has been tracked, you know, long-term and that, that, that'd be interesting to know. I, I, I would like to know that, you know, um, I want to go back to the, to the topic about, uh, the, um, you know, being able to keep, uh, difficult to breed species or, or rare projects. And I, I had something that came to mind that I wanted to kind of counter what you're saying with that because Casey Lazzick produced quite a few hard to breed or difficult to breed species. And he had a very illustrious career as a professional breeder and continues

to breed some really cool stuff. And I if, if it weren't for him and others like him, we wouldn't have a lot of these species, especially the Australian species in the hobby. So, um, you know, he, he put in that work and, and he was kind of niche, right. Or niche. What is a nipper? Niche. What niche? Niche. Um, so we, we, uh, we want to be able to, obviously there's keepers that can do those niche species and do very well and, you know, support the families and things. So, and that was where his revenue was coming from was, you know, these difficult to breed, you know, blackheads, womas, people weren't able to really breed those back in the day. And Golan pythons, you know, there weren't a lot of people that were successful with those. And also, he was able to put forth the capital needed and he was able to, or, you know, being a professional breeder demanded that time and effort to get these different projects into his hands, you know, through, uh, different, different ways. But, uh, he was able to get those and, and to make sure that we were able to keep, uh, Centralian carpets or, you know, Angolan

pythons because he produced so many of them and made those available to, to, uh, you know, smaller breeders or hobbyist breeders. But, um, that, you know, that, that effort and that requirement is really difficult for a hobbyist breeder to, to put out there. Absolutely. Absolutely. No, that's, and, you know, I, I think, uh, you know, uh, we all stand on the backs of giants, uh, and, uh, you know, Casey's definitely one of those guys.

Uh, yeah, I mean, I, I, I certainly, I, I can't argue with Yeah, I mean, I certainly can't argue with that. So another point? You give me another point, Chuck? You know what, Justin? I always give credit where credit is due. I mean, I think, you know, it's hard because I'm sure Casey wasn't always a professional breeder. At one point, he was a hobbyist who found a way to get animals into this country. And he, you know, made a great name for himself.

And, you know, now he's kind of moved on to different animals and he keeps doing cool stuff and it affords him that ability. And so, you know, any professional breeder is just a hobbyist who was good enough to keep going for a living at it. I mean, you know, I mean, and so, you know, or had, you know, business sense, cause there's, of course there's some that, that can arrange or buy from other breeders or import or things like that. So I would include those guys in there too. And, and really, you know, if you have the business sense to, to make this work that's also, you know, that's no small feed either because a lot of people can breed reptiles, but you also see a lot of hobbyists producing these hard to get species, but then they don't have much business sense. And so when they become hard to

sell, um, they drop their prices, they keep dropping their prices until they can sell their animals. So they devalue projects in a lot of instances that would otherwise make you remain stronger for a longer time. And, you know, as a small hobbyist breeder, I've been guilty of that to some extent, you know, where it's difficult to, to carry on a project and to, to maintain that value when you, when you've, when you're running out of room or, you know, you don't have the space to keep all these babies and you got to move some, you're like, well, maybe I'll lower the price. Whereas a professional breeder, um, would probably be less likely to do that would hold the prices more firm. And so in a lot of ways, the hobbyist breeders make it difficult for those professional

breeders to, to keep, um, different projects going to keep, you know, values higher or keep projects in the limelight. Because as soon as a project devalues in a lot of ways that devalues the type, the species, right? So you see species disappearing, not necessarily because they're not cool species or they're not important to herpetoculture, but because, you know, hobbyist breeders lose interest because there's not a flashy moor for there's something like that. And so the professional breeders can't justify the space and the time and effort to keep some of those because there's nobody that's interested or buying them. So they might reduce that population within their, substantially in some regards. Well, and I think anybody who remembers,

uh, the, the albinos and, and the Chris Proctor, uh, you know, uh, trajectory of, of that project. Oh man, that was, that was rough to watch, you know? Um, but in, you know, at the same time, like, um, you know, when you, you get get, let's tell that story real quick, because that, that's an important, you know, point for me, right. Because, um, Chris Proctor, who was a hobbyist, he bought these really expensive, um, albino carpets. No, no, no. He was funded. He was funded by, uh, I think it was, I think it was his, his dad's some, some associates of his dad's in an investment business venture. Yeah. So I don't know if that's a hobbyist thing or whether you're wanting to be a professional breeder there.

I don't know how we classify that. But yes, clearly he took other people's money and he acquired those animals. And he bred them. And he bred them. He absolutely bred them. Yeah. And produced the first albinos that were captive bred in the United States. But then they weren't – it's not easy to sell a $10,000 animal or a 20 – I can't remember how much he was trying to sell them for. I'll be honest with you.

But that price dropped daily. Almost like – I'll be honest with you. That price dropped daily. You know, almost like, and then he, and he, he, he, you're, you're kind of frozen. I don't know if we can hear you or not, but he, he kind of valued that project pretty quick and he sold it as you know, for what else, whatever he could get. And then he basically got out of the reptiles and I heard he moved on. I mean, he was a local guy. He moved on to, to falconry and falconry right yeah that's my friend that said he did the exact same thing with falconry he just yeah got bored and ditched it and sold all his stuff you know so so you can

try to you yeah well i mean i i would say people i say people can make a mess of things and and you you can be a give me an example of a pro breeder that's done that. Can you think of anything? I mean, that's a great example to my point that, you know, professional breeders, if they're professional breeders, they've been around and they can kind of maintain the course and keep those projects going. I mean, we don't necessarily need to name names. Maybe that's not the best thing well i can think of a sir i can think of a certain i can think of a certain individual who is a uh was a is a is was is a youtube sensation who completely went from selling animals uh professionally to just, uh, pay an admission, uh, to, for people to see animals. So, you know, not, not every

professional, um, it, you know, uh, is necessarily good at their business model or long-term. Um, and I think supporting themselves still through that, you know, it's, is that not, well, and I think, yes, but I think, I think the quality of your business practices speaks well to your longevity. And if you bring poor business practices, eventually you're going to get poor results because word gets around that you're not on an, you're not the up and up guy. So, so, you know, and, and that doesn't matter if you're a, uh, uh, you know, a hobbyist who sells animals here and there, or whether you're a professional who sells animals, if you're not, if you're not a straight shooter, um, that gets around and,

and especially in small communities like the carpet community, um, you know, the names, names get tossed pretty fast. Um, so, you know, I, I mean, tossed pretty fast. So, you know, I mean, I, I definitely think that you, you can, you can make a, an argument both, both ways, poor business practice by a professional or poor, poor business practice by an aspiring hobbyist, you know, both lead to the same thing. And, you know, are albinos still selling? Yeah. I mean, are people still producing them?

Yeah. And maybe, maybe they're actually valued at the price point that they should be. And so maybe what we're talking about is professionals who get into these projects and they're so invested financially in the initial of this and they try to wind it out top down rather than price it accordingly and sell it over the long period, which I mean, if you're a professional and you're hot at it, you got it knocked down every year, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Wouldn't that be a safer business strategy rather than, um, basically selling to

your competition at a high value that, you know, next year is going to be less. And Hey, um, does that, does, is that the individual professional breeders problem? No, not necessarily, but is, is, is every customer who, who bought first, second, third going to be upset? Because the price of that project is going to be at its level market value by the time possibly that first breeder is able to get his animals ready to reproduce. Right. So. Yeah. I mean, I think this is a unique hobby too, where, you know, we, we don't neuter the animals, you know, they don't, they don't go out non-reproductive. So basically you're setting up your, your competitors by selling them the animals. So that, you know, that. Well, I do, I do think there's some nuance that, um, I do, I do think there's some

nuance to it too. I mean, I do think there's animals that, um, that, that will never, that just don't reproduce, you know, that they're, they, I don't know, you know, like I've had animals that there's no reason they shouldn't, but they just didn't, you know, and I, I couldn't tell you why. I've got another good example of how professional breeders can really keep the industry moving. And that's of Bert Langworth, where he was producing just so many different Australian water dragons and, and a lot of different species, but I was interested in Australian water dragons. So that sticks out to me. And now you look around and, and they're very difficult to find and they're very expensive because even though he was producing a lot of animals, everybody just figured, well, you know, Bert will do it, or I'll just leave that to Bert. And there was nobody that was, um, I guess, uh, caring about the species or, or looking to the species. So even

though a lot of, um, small hobbyist breeders, including myself bought animals from Bert, um, when he, when he passed away, there was nobody really that, that could keep that going. Like there, there's still very, uh, small availability for Australian water dragons. And now they're very high in demand and the price has rocketed. And there are a few people that are working with them and producing them, but nowhere to the extent that he was. And so, you know, that's been a big loss to, to the industry when that just very successful and, and business savvy person, you know, left us and, and, you know, it's just shows the, the importance of professional breeders in this, in this industry. Well, and I mean, I think conversely, you, you know, uh, Ed Bradley, the, the, the condo breed, the longtime condo reader told me a story about, uh, Dick Bartlett, the, the, uh, the gentleman in Florida who, man, he, Dick is just into everything. Right. And, uh, back in the day, uh, Gary Sipperly and the Larry Black blacks and all those guys that that that were um that that we know now

as lineage named carpets got all their stuff from dick bartlett so and and and so when carpets became you know passe everybody kept a car every every hobbyist breeder kept a pair of carpets um but but the dick bartlett moved on to other stuff because it just wasn't like he can't sell it so he's got to move on so you know when you when you talk about maintaining species um you know over the long haul as i said in in early on the reservoir will always be in the hobbyist breeder because the professional breeder at some level will always have to chase the market. And the hobbyist breeder can, you know, he doesn't have to. He does absolutely does not have to. I would counter that with one name and our good friend, Nick Mutton, where, you know, maybe Dick Bartlett moved away from carpet pythons, but Nick's been consistently breeding, you know, carpet pythons for quite a long time. And, you know, it doesn't show any signs of stopping.

You know, he's got a collection of Centralian carpets that would rival any in the world for the most part. And so, you know, he's, he's got that and he, he's been very successful with that. So you can still be a professional breeder and still make a, uh, you know, a complete living through this industry, through, um, niche or niche species, um, that, uh, maybe people have maybe have fallen out of the limelight. And I think that also goes along with, uh, your, your business sense. If you can promote that species, if you have the, you know, the, the business sense to be able to get out there and, and get people excited about the species you're working with, it doesn't really matter what you're producing. You know, and Bert, Bert was a good example of that too because you know he specialized in things that he could keep outdoors in Alabama he

didn't chase what everybody wanted he bred species that he could reliably keep outdoors and produce in a naturalistic setting which is is another cool you know business uh model uh for reptiles and and you know basically let nature provide what they need and, and, and he kind of just supports them in that. So a couple of good examples of professional breeders that have, that have done very well with, with species that haven't, you know, that kind of go against that following the market idea. So, well, okay. I hear what you're saying, but anybody who has been in carpets long haul remembers when Nick Mutton only exclusively and emphatically dealt with pure animals. And that's not the case anymore. And I mean, you know, mean you know i i'm not saying that he completely

abandoned that he absolutely is still running projects that he's had but you know as a consideration he to continue to put food on his table he had this to expand his horizons a little bit. And so he, he, he got into morphs, you know? And, and he's, he's knocking that out of the box, but you know, so I mean, I hear what you're saying. It's not a bad, yeah. And I'm not saying it's a bad example, but I think there's also, you know, there's always considerations and, and you can definitely see examples of people who's, um, you know, their, uh, you know, their viewpoint changes based on their bottom line. And, and there's nothing, I'm not saying there's anything wrong

with that. That has to happen as a professional breeder. Like there's no if, ands or buts about it. I mean, there, you know, if, if your, your, your stope was breeding something nobody ever cared about, good luck. I mean, so, I mean, I hear what you're saying, but, you know, I mean, if Nick was still breeding, you know, pure, pure lineage carpets exclusively, I would lay down and show you my belly, but I'm not quite going to do that yet. I think for his breeding projects, he's got pure species, but he was importing from Paul. And so he was importing crosses and different morph variants that were crossed between subspecies. I think he's doing some, I think he's doing some, I think he's doing some pairings too. I mean, he's not breeding a Centralian with a, with a, you know, a diamond or anything like that. You know, he's not, he's not crossing to that.

Mick has standards, you know, that's. But he was importing, you know, some, some, some of those morphs and mutations that were, that were hybrid in some cases, potentially. I don't think i but i do think that he's he's tried to maintain that uh that purity and that lineage and things like that a hundred percent a hundred percent and i'm not saying anything to the otherwise um i think nick has done a great job and and you know for a guy i'm just making the point like for a guy who went from you know a hobbyist a large hobbyist breeder to a professional he did make a pivot and there's I mean there's that's there's not in my mind there's

not an argument there I'm not saying it's right or wrong I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it I get it a hundred percent but you know, I'm just making the point. Yeah. Well, we're coming up on an hour. I guess we can continue on if you've got some some pressing points. I think I've maybe exhausted a lot of my talking points. But if you've got anything else you want to end on, Maybe we can have maybe a summary, but I would say that from the aspect of keeping the hobby alive through fighting legislation to keeping, you know, people supplied with captive bred animals that were produced within the United States that can, you know, ship them to you, you know, basically overnight and have that easy access rather than having to wait for months or years to import something from another country, um, to having those healthy captive bred animals and, uh, having some longevity, you know, having people that, that are doing it consistently over the long haul, it professional breeders take the win in, in, in that regard. So that would be my,

uh, my contention for having, you know, the importance and, and the kind of the, the professional breeders would kind of, um, take the cake in that regard in supporting the hobby and keeping things. Sure. I understand that view. I mean, I think there's, you know, there, there definitely is a place for professional breeders. I think when you look at the professional breeders who supply big chains like Petco and PetSmart, and you look at the quality of some of those animals, they certainly do take the cake and maybe not always in the best of ways. So, you know, bigger isn't in my opinion, always better. And, and, you know, I'll go back to what I said in the beginning is that I think that hobbyist breeders are the reservoir for the

species that we need to be paying attention to. Ball pythons are not going anywhere. Carpet pythons are not going anywhere. They are not hard to breed animals, but where you're going to find success is in the hard to breed, um, rare animals that are becoming fewer and fewer in our, in our hobby. And so it is incumbent upon hobbyist breeders to pick up that mantle. And I feel like I see it every day. I mean, I'm into William Sy and Frank Payne is just knocking that out of the box. So, you know, a hobbyist breeder, he's a biology teacher. He's articulate, smart, and doing a great service to an endangered animal. And I think that, you know, there's plenty of Frank Payne's out there. And so, you know, well, I understand that everything has its place where we are right now in our society, in our environmental catastrophe that is impending to us. I think

that the hobbyist takes the win there. I think we have to, you know, while economics is important. Economics is the extraction of oftentimes, you know, unrenewable resources for a profit. And, you know, we all have jobs and the economy supports a lot of these hobbyists in their professional life so that they can take and make animals that may not be around that much longer. And so for me, that's the, you know, that's the the exclamation point at the end of the sentence. All right. Fair enough. Well, I think we've presented, you know, the two sides of the coin and, and I guess we'll, we'll let the listener kind of decide where, where they may fall in regards to the points and the topics we brought up. You know, you guys can, uh, declare a winner or declare what side you're, you're on, but, um, hopefully we've given you some things to think about and, uh, some good discussion

topics. So that was a good time, Chuck. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Well, I think, I think we should, I think we should end by, you know, kind of giving a shout out to the, the other podcasts that are in the Morelia Pythons radio network. First and foremost, you know, as always a big ups to Eric and Owen,

and you can catch them weekly at Morelia Python radio. Also tune into- They're going on, what, 10 years now or past 10? Yeah, man. It's absolutely fantastic. Yep. They keep something going that long. That's really cool.

But yeah, give them a listen. They've been doing this a long time and they're doing a great job. Eric and Owen, sorry there, Owen, have started Herp History, so give that a listen. And then you can tune in to Eric and Owen in Carpet's Cliff Notes. So that's care and captivity, natural history of the hobby. Check out a few. Yeah, a few branch-offs where Owen and Riley Jemison have taken on Cluebrids in Cluebrid Corner. Check out a few. Yeah. A few branch offs for where, uh, Owen and Riley Jimison have taken on Kluberids and Kluberid Corner. Um, check out that one, Eric and Rob Stone. Rob Stone's

great, great guy and does, does a lot of good stuff. He's really smart guy. Um, but they do student of the serpent together. Um, that's a really fun one. I think they've only had one episode there. I hope they're having more soon. Cause that's just a really, that's one of my favorite podcasts to listen to it. Yeah. Shout out to Bob rock, man. Yeah.

Bob rock. He's the man. That's awesome. I love that nickname. Yeah. Riley and, and Eric do carpets and coffee and they Lucas is also included in that one. Lucas Lee and Riley Jim Jimison, Eric Burke,

and Lucas Lee do carpets and coffee every Monday. Check that out around lunchtime. That's a great one as well. Yeah. The also check out the field herping podcast. That's Eric and nipper read. Um, and then, uh, if you're kind of interested as I am, I know Justin is in monitor keeping. Alan Stevens and Kai Phan are starting a podcast on monitors. So check them out. I gave that first podcast a listen. I'm pretty excited to hear more. So and then Lucas Lee is also starting Humans of Herpetoculture.

Yep. I've had the pleasure of doing that one being interviewed by Lucas. Lucas is one of those great up-and-comers. He's a young guy starting. He's actually-hosting the Carpets and Coffee. And he's a nice integral part to the Morelia pythons network. We've also got a new one, another new one, the Australian Herpetoculture podcast. This one's really exciting for me as a big fan of Australian reptiles and Chuck as well, I'm sure. Oh, yeah. I'm all about this. Yeah. It's, it's a fun, fun to hear them talk about, um, herpetoculture from the Australian side and that's hosted by

Luke Netheim and Jason Rogers. Um, so that should be a fun one as well. So quite the list, no, no shortage of things to listen to. Um, hopefully you've enjoyed this podcast as well, and we'll try to keep it going try to keep uh cool topics happening and and discussing uh different topics and kind of giving you both sides of that coin on reptile fight club so uh tune in hopefully uh we'll have another one for you soon but um good times and i appreciate uh chuck and and your your insights and and a good, lively debate here. So thanks for listening. Keep it tough there, Justin.

You're good with your points, man. I appreciate the opportunity. Thanks, everybody, for listening. Yep. We'll catch you soon. Thanks a lot. Voice of the Order. slow Thank you. We'll see you next time.