Reptile Fight Club - Pros and Cons of Zoos & the Hobby Working together .

Episode Date: June 11, 2021

In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the topic of the Pros and Cons of Zoos working with the Hobby.Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comWebsite: https://www.moreliapythonradio.netYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQ@MPR Network on FB and IG.Email: [e-mail]-spring store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to the MGR Network. All right, welcome to another edition of the Reptile Fight Club. Today, I have some very special guests. Very near and dear to my heart, these two. They're just good guys all around. I think you're going to enjoy their discussion. We'll hear some... So the topic today, Chuck is here as well. Hello!

Chuck, say hi. You're kind of quiet there. I didn't know if you were going to jump in. So yeah, we're excited to have our first guest on Reptile Fight Club. And today we're going to be talking about the pros and cons, the goods and bads of zoos working with private hobbyists and kind of the two sides of that argument. Of course, hobbyists always want to get animals from zoos or want to wonder why zoos don't work with them or you know that kind of thing so we're going to hear hear from their expertise um so steve sharp uh

and ryan demas um are our two guests today and it sounds like we've got a white tree frog chiming in as well so we'll hear from him from time to time possibly anyway, how about you guys introduce yourself? Steve, you want to give us a little breakdown of who is Steve Scharr? Yeah, sure. So I'm Steve Scharr. Some of you might remember me from my glory days in herpeticulture as part of Australian Addiction Reptiles. Oh yeah. deeper focused on herpetology and herb collections and worked at a couple different zoos over the years a little bit of time at phoenix zoo and then henry dorley zoo and aquarium in omaha for a couple years and and now i'm currently at fresno's chaffee zoo in fresno california very cool so you say 27 years of herpetoculture and then the zoo stuff.

So how old were you when you started this? I started like in herpetoculture pretty young. So I started keeping and breeding reptiles when I was 10 and started with breeding leopard geckos. And by the time I was 11, I was supplying local pet shops in the area with captive bred leopard geckos and eventually bearded dragons and veiled chameleons and diversified, mostly lizard focused projects throughout my time in herpetoculture. And then, you know, as an adult, I joined AAR and Justin and I read a lot of stuff over the years and then and uh did a lot of shows on the west coast mostly and western part of the u.s and um it was amazing it was a lot of fun um you know the last the last like five or so years i slowly kind of backed away from her pediculture for a lot of reasons but um a lot of it had to do with just the amount of time that it took outside of work. And, and I got my herb fix at work every day. It almost became like just too much to do double dipping, you know,

two full-time jobs, cleaning up caging and enclosures and taking care of mouths to feed constantly. And, um, but yeah, that's it. I, I still, uh, I still kind of have a little toe in her pediculture, and definitely it's near and dear to my heart and I love to contribute where I can. Awesome. That's the big toe, right?

It's the big toe, yeah. Eventually it might slip back in a little bit more, but right now just, you know. Like whole foot, or are you trying to put your leg back in? Maybe a leg, I don't know. Maybe a leg or an arm, so we'll see what happens. now just you know like whole foot or are you like trying to put your leg back in maybe like maybe a leg i don't know maybe a leg or an arm so we'll see what happens i look forward to seeing your leg back in there he's got nice legs yeah yeah thank you all right i got i got ryan demas uh thanks for joining us uh tell us a little bit about yourself

first what kind of podcast is this? It's Go Holds Bar It's a little different Yeah, we try to be a little different A little off the cuff Somebody's legs are jealous That is true No zookeeper's legs are jealous of other zookeepers.

They're always jacked. That's true, man. Right on. So, yeah, I haven't been in it as long as, at least herpetoculture, as long as Steve. I was actually a zookeeper first before really, I mean, I kept the odds and ends throughout the years, but nothing really crazy. But I've been, I think I'm on year 15 in AZA zoos and aquariums, National Aquarium, Bronx Zoo, a couple different aquariums. And now I'm at the Cincinnati Zoo. And really, I mean, it took me a little bit, but there's not a job that I would rather have.

It is something I'm really, really passionate about. You get a chance to inspire people to, like, give a damn about wildlife or habitats of any kind. You get to work. Someone pays me, you know, to to work with a variety of reptiles. And I haven't I can also identify with what Steve was saying earlier. My collection has been dwindling as the full-time job has more responsibilities and there's children and there's all kinds of things that take up time but I'll probably always have a leg in it a little more than a toe at least a leg so but I really do enjoy I've been doing it a long time and yeah something I really enjoy and, you've made it past the years where most people, where it's like that make or

break year where it's like, okay, am I going to keep doing this or am I going to go like sell real estate? Yeah. But you made it, man. I did. I did. I'm like you, man. I can't imagine doing anything else.

This is one of the best jobs on earth at least for anybody that's obsessed like we are about about reptiles amphibians conservation and all the things that tie into it within a zoo and you know like today i spent the day talking to people about komodo dragons and their conservation in the wild and how these contribute to that and that that for me was just amazing to have those kinds of conversations with people. And that was at the grocery store, right?

It was. It was in the line. All right. Well, enough of the niceties. You guys ready to fight? Duke it out, man.

All right. So, uh, we'll get out the coin here. We'll do the coin toss. Let's see. We'll let Ryan, since he's the senior, he's been in the zoo industry longer. We'll let him make the call here.

Call it in the air. Tails. You got it. I knew it. You're better than Chuck. I think he's going to go on. What the heck? Wow. Even though we're not fighting,

I got to get my digs in. Exactly. I'm like Rodney Dangerfield co-host over here. Yeah. No respect. All right, Ryan. What side would you like to argue or defend? Both sides are intriguing because there are arguments to be made from both sides.

But I'm going to take the easy route on this one because I agree wholeheartedly that zoos and, to varying extents, the private hobby should be working together. Okay. So you're going to go pro zoos working with hobbyists. All right. and that means Steve gets the con side as you won the coin toss will also give you the option if you want to go first or if you want to defer to Steve to start us out you know I'm gonna defer to Steve it is easier to rebuttal sometimes. Sometimes it's a second half game.

You know what I'm saying? That's true. All right, Steve. The floor is yours. Let's hear it. All right. So why private hobbyists or why zoos should not work with private hobbyists? So before I say anything, I just want to say, you know, I align similarly with Ryan.

I think that goes without saying, but I do think that there's a lot of value in zoos working with private hobbyists. Before I say anything yeah so there are a lot of definite drawbacks in my mind as far as why zoos shouldn't work with private hobbyists and and a lot of that stems from like a lot of the the legal issues that kind of come from from her pediculture and from what goes on and how especially herpeticulture has become this global thing that we, you know, we buy and sell and ship and move animals all over the world, all over the globe. And there's all of these laws and regulations and countries of origin where these things come from. And a lot of the time, it's easy to manipulate those rules,

it's easy to skirt around them. And, you know, I know, in US herpetoculture, too, like, it's easy to trade animals that are non-cities or that are not regulated by the Endangered Species Act or any anything that where they have some level of protection. And even sometimes it's easy to get around those things too. So I think some of the legal issues that stem from people illegally going around those loopholes or keeping things that aren't technically legal, that haven't been legally imported, that's a huge red flag for zoos, especially with the current culture of, you know, cancelling an organization or cancelling something that you don't necessarily agree with, that you, you know, public opinion can push and pressure change within an organization.

We saw that with Shamu, with SeaWorld, with SeaWorld keeping orca whales in a captive setting and human care. And I think that public pressure and public sentiment and the black eye that could be inflicted on a zoo or an aquarium for dealing with private herpetoculturalists that are unscrupulous and doing things illegally or in the wrong ways is a huge, huge red flag, uh, for most zoos and aquariums. And, um, you know, it's why sometimes some zoos and aquariums choose not to even deal with private herpetoculturalists or hobbyists in any way. Um, it's just easier to deal with insular organizations that are connected to your organization already or a private nonprofit that's well represented. There's ways that you can deal with outside entities that don't open you up to as much potential problems

or the potentiality of having some issues in the long run. Yeah. Anybody who's read a stolen world or the other lizard King has, you know, the kind of shenanigans, but when zoos are involved in it, they want to probably avoid that black eye. Yeah. What say you, Ryan?

Well, I mean, that's a, that's always something you have to consider. However, a strong rebuttal is, I mean, that's always something you have to consider. However, a strong rebuttal is, you know, there's quite a few zookeepers and zoos in the history of zoos. No, I'm not referencing anything necessarily Oklahoma City Zoo at all. But those apples, the people who take advantage of those things, isn't just isolated to the private hobby at all. It's a part of wildlife movement in

general and working with wildlife. So I think that although that's something you have to worry about, I mean, all it means is that you have to do your due diligence and really work with people and do your homework on who you would choose to do business with. So I want to clarify when I say I'm pro working with a private hobby, I don't say like, oh, man, we bred like 10 Burmese pythons. Let's just give them to John down the street. I know he has some. It's got to be a more delicate process than that. And perception is reality. You're right. So there is a lot of heat associated with a lot of people in the private hobby. However, in my experience working in zoos and aquariums, transparency is key to that perception. And if people if you if you're not trying to hide something and brush it under the rug, you're being honest with people, I think it goes a long way when you say, hey, here's the thing. We have 300 pancake tortoises in ACA zoos and aquariums, and 210, which may not be far from the truth, are genetically

not very strong representatives. We don't have the room to really work with this species to really give the genetically stronger population room. We can't breed them anymore. So what do you do? Do you say, well, I'm not going to work with a private hobbyist. So unfortunately, there's just not going to be room for pancake tortoises anymore. Whereas a private hobby is just going to continue to pump out pancake tortoises, although maybe not as genetically strong. But I think that doing the background on somebody, making, vetting them, if you will, and making sure that you've done as much homework as you can do, there's always risk involved. It is essential if you're going to work with somebody in the private

side of the aisle, you know, You have to be able to do that because really the number one limiting factor in conservation work in zoos and aquariums across the animal board is space. And we just don't, oh, excuse me. We just don't have a lot of space. And hoofstock is a really, really big example of this. You can go to Texas and see all kinds of like kudu and, you know, all these other like African hoof gazelle, like everything just out there. And a lot of those places are working with zoological institutions because what are we doing? Like, unfortunately, and with reptiles, especially since i already mentioned turtles and tortoises like they live a long time turtles and tortoises live a long time it's not

like rabbits where you know um oops we had a genetically not strong uh population well that's all right we can care for rabbits for five to eight years or so and you know they'll be all right but like some of these tortoises like imagine asian uh giant tortoises that are you know they're 60 70 years old at some point and they take up a lot of space uh so yeah i i can see there's legalities to worry about but there are legal and ethical ways to do that correctly And that's what we'll have to do in zoos. Now, Ryan, on that topic, I just had a quick question to, sorry to break in here, but so I guess I see the demand for these rare or hard to get species that kind of fuels the illegal trade that Steve was referring to in herpetoculture. And so if

there was, you know, more of an outlet where zoos or, you know, could, could breed these things and kind of maybe flood the market, if, if, if that's a okay term to use, but to, to reduce the pressure and not have people go out and taking them from the wild, but, you know, obtaining them from the wild, but obtaining them from legally imported, ethically kept animals from the zoo industry. I don't know if that's an option or if that's something. I mean, I've heard of some zoos that release some animals to the private sector through various means, but is that something that is possible in your opinion? Well, I think a good point to bring up that you kind of alluded to is

that there are lots of zoos already working with private hobbyists who have animals, reptiles specifically. And yeah, there is something to be said about, you know, flooding the market, as you might say. But there's a lot, I think it's very species dependent. And that's, I mean, that's a tough thing about this whole debate right now. I'm sorry. This whole fight is that, you know, there's, I just saw you flex at me. It's just everything. I mean, it's a simple to say, yes, we should know. We shouldn't, but it is such a complex issue. That isn't just like, like you really are going to have to go down to a species level in a lot of cases to determine whether or not, uh, doing something like that is good. Um, you know, just, and I'm just

referring to, uh, surplus animals from zoos, but there's another point of including private hobbyists and that's uh you know private breeders or importers and things like that and that that enters a whole other realm i think uh at one point i've talked to you guys before about emerald tree boas right emerald tree boas are there's not many people breeding them i mean i'm sure we all i mean we're kind of more connected than a lot of people we're pretty connected in the private hobby but there's not a lot of people breeding them still. You probably all know a couple, maybe a handful. There's probably a lot of overlap between us.

In zoos, I can tell you that there was one birth event in the last 12 months, and that was my zoo. And, yeah. Yeah. Let me know, Steve. We have a single female. Oh, oh okay we'll talk later um all right as long as we talk as a zoo as long as we can talk both as a zoo official and a private yes yes otherwise i don't agree with it um well played yes so one of the things that we do

in my in my zoo and a lot of zoos probably do something similar is we have to do our due diligence as to best where some of these animals came from. And we were able to, we purchased a pair of emerald tree bows that were imported as adults. And we found where they came from. They came from Suriname, a small village. And you're never going to get any importer's information because that's like livelihood. But we were able to find out that villagers exchanged these snakes to the importer for rice and clothing. So I'm sure they have a lot of avenues of making ends meet and doing things. But in this particular, just going and getting a couple snakes is rice and rice and close for the family, for the village.

And. We're not doing anything, but by doing that, these people are making money off the land where these animals exist. And as far as we can tell, the population is pretty dang stable. And that's, you know, that's I'm not saying we shouldn't try to breed emerald tree boas, but I feel pretty ethically sound that we do that kind of thing, that all the paperwork's there, you know, sightings and everything, all the paperwork was legal, legitimate. It's a population that I feel as far as IUCN is concerned as well is a stable population. And whenever you have people who are making money off the habitat, off the land, that is good in my opinion because we can breed the crap out of emerald tree boas, but if there's no land or habitat to put them back someday,

then we're not really doing any conservation, maybe preserving a species. But anyways, the whole point was to really bring up that we have to work with multiple different facets of the private hobby to varying degrees. I mean, these animals weren't like born in our cages in a zoo. So they came from somewhere. Yeah. All right, Steve, what do you got? Yeah, I mean, that was a good response thank you right um no i think um when you when you look at you know you vet you vet

people you vet their backgrounds um dealing with zoos you know are the zoo i work for and all the zoos i've worked for um we we dealt with private sector folks and either sourced animals from them or dispositioned animals to them um and it came with a lot of uh a lot of paperwork and a lot of checking into certain things depending on how strict the zoo is about about their paperwork process you know there's quite a bit of information that's required on the part of of where the animal is going to go to or where the animal is going to come from and some aspects of that are things like even in some cases a site inspection where they might send somebody from an EZA institution that's nearby to that to that facility or that person's breeding where they

breed stuff and then actually inspecting it to make sure that there is some sort of standard of care there that there is some sort of you know that there's a there's a vet nearby or that they have a regular vet that they actually have their animals screened for diseases that there's a vet nearby or that they have a regular vet, that they actually have their animals screened for diseases, that there's all these things that factor into, that are pre-built into an AZA institution, an Association of Zoos and Aquariums institution, where if you're dealing directly zoo to zoo, you don't have to worry about a lot of those factors

that you might have to worry about from a private hobbyist. I see Ryan's face, taking a face. That's funny. But at the same time, in theory, this is how it should be as far as they're meeting a set standard of care by this greater umbrella organization. And so those things are pre-built into those other facilities. And so you kind of have at least a good idea of what you're getting when you source animals directly from another zoo. And right now there's talk of creating a more insular movement within AZA, within zoos, of breeding more common species where people are talking about like things that we utilize a lot

for programs or ambassador animal type species, things like ball pythons and bearded dragons and corn snakes and leopard geckos and all these commonly kept infrared animals in the private hobby. Instead of sourcing them from the private hobby, we want zoos to kind of breed those in-house and share them with other facilities. And then just every few years, somebody take care of creating a couple of these animals and then sharing them and distributing them around so that we don't have to go out and look for these animals in the private hobby just to avoid any of those legal issues or disease issues or any of these other things that are not well regulated or, or taken care of within private herpetoculture. I mean, you talk to

any private herpetoculturalist that's Joe Schmo breeding leopard geckos in their basement. I guarantee you, they're not testing their animals for crypto. They're not sending in fecal samples to anyone. They're not having a vet come and look at sick animals. You know, you hear the horror stories and you know, like all of us know, having been involved in herpeticulture for a long time, sometimes the solution for a sick animal is you throw it in the freezer and freeze it to death, which is not a mindful or good way to deal with a problem at all. But that's a common thing that happens in herpeticulture, like where people don't, they don't have a standard of veterinary care.

There's no, there's no follow up. There's no procedure. There's no, there's no regulation to it outside of maybe some local county laws or something that just says you can't have 10 snakes or you can't have a snake over seven feet or whatever it might be. Those are the regulations that are there. There's no regulations determining a standard of care. I think of a country like Australia where it's actually pretty strict from state to state within Australia as far as like how you get licensed, your caging has to be inspected. Someone comes and talks to you. You have to take a class on how to take care of reptiles properly and get signed off by people that are knowledgeable about it. If it's at a zoo

or a reptile park or wherever it might be, wherever it's held, you have to actually, there's some standard of care there. I think of like a country like Denmark where they've outlawed rack systems. You can't have a rack system. You can't keep animals in a rack system, in a sweater box rack system in some of these countries in Europe, because it falls out of line with what we think of as current animal welfare practices, what are proper current animal welfare practices and how animals should be kept. And so there isn't any of that in the United States. I wonder if there's, uh, you, well, my state, uh, Utah just, uh, changed the laws of collection. Um, and they allowed, um, more collection of, of different species that were formerly prohibited

for collection. And they included in that an education system. So you have to watch a video and you have to answer a quiz before you can get a collection permit for wild collection in Utah, which is kind of a cool advance and kind of down along the lines of what you're talking about. So, you know, I hope that can be used by other states to, you know, to maybe ensure that the animals that are taken from the wild are actually done, that's done by people who know what they're doing or who have some knowledge or who have been instructed on the proper care of a reptile. Hey, you tell Utah to come talk to California, man.

That sounds pretty good. Yeah. I was very impressed because we've always had some archaic laws in Utah as far as collection and things. So, yeah, it's been good. So I think, you know, what you're saying there, Steve, is that it's a big headache to work with private herpetoculture. And when you're talking about private herpetoculture, you're talking about importers as well as private breeders. Yeah, like just thinking about, know like you've you guys have

seen the levels of different collections like you go to somebody's house they that's what you you go in the reptile room and you look at the standard of care you look at the caging you look at the enclosures you look at how animals are kept and over the years you get an eye for knowing when things are okay and when they're not and you know some of that ties into your own morality it ties into your own level within her pediculture how long you've been doing it um and then also you know kind of your own cleanliness and husbandry type of standards that you build over the years and so what i I'm saying is, as far as like, AZA zoos dealing with that kind of mess of all of this diversity, I know that plays into what

Ryan was saying that you vet those people properly, and you make sure that they're vetted, that they're following these channels that they're in their site inspected and all these things. But for for AZA zoos, that just seems like it's a huge task to have to do that for for sourcing like something as simple as i just want to buy a bearded dragon from x breeder and then also the other thing that that isn't that we're not talking about is like all the paperwork that's involved in selling an animal to a zoo is sometimes the, the biggest hurdle for, for any of us within a zoo is to get people to fill that paperwork out and be

okay with like putting things like some of the paperwork I've seen, like ask for your social security number to ask for your tax ID number. If you own a business, like it asked for all of this invasive stuff that some people are not willing to share and so that's where within zoos um you know that's another reason to just insularly deal with other zoos it's just easier to source animals and try to get animals from other zoos from their breeding programs uh within zoos as opposed to just dealing with any kind of the the headache and the mess of whatever herpetoculture is doing.

And Steve, are AZA zoos staffed to really do that? I mean, do they have people who, you know, like, is that their job? Or I mean, or is that something that's, you know, a facility would be stretched in to try and do that regularly so it kind of would be like if there was a person that i was trying to source an animal from and it was close to a zoo like if there was somebody near ryan i would reach out to ryan and i would say hey i'm trying to buy something from this x person can you go do a site inspection and then i would have a form that that i would email to ryan and if ryan was like yeah i have time to do that i can go do a site inspection? And then I would have a form that I would email to Ryan. And if Ryan was like, yeah, I have time to do that, I can go do it.

It's more of like a favor almost, like just asking for assistance from a fellow peer. Hey, can we check this person out and vet them and make sure that they're okay? But also that's good for Ryan because if that's a good place and he goes there and he sees it and he's impressed by that facility, he might want to deal with that person too. And then that person's local to him. That is a new source that he can actually go and he'll have a site inspection on file for himself as well. Now this rubric isn't kind of consistent or the same, it's not the same for every single facility, but it's moving towards that. And I think as AZA becomes more strict with how they regulate and deal with each other and deal with the public and deal with other zoos

and all these things in the private sector, I think that it's going to be tougher for zoos to actually deal with the private sector. That's just my own opinion and kind of the trend that I see in some ways moving towards where it's more becoming more insular. Um, uh, especially like if I look at things like, um, I see things like in New Zealand or I'm friends with some keepers in New Zealand or Australia. And I see things that they talk about where they don't even want to deal with anyone that isn't in a zoo. Um, they don't want to source animals from the private sector at all because of all the legal issues that are associated with, with the,

with the private sector and how animals are obtained and how, how they come, come into the hands of private hobbyists. They don't even want anything to do with it. So they're doing things like, as an example, like breeding Goliath bird-eating spiders, which is a very easily obtained spider species that gets imported. And it gets reproduced periodically, but not consistently within a zoo setting. And so they'll make like 100 Goliath bird-eating spiders and then ship them out to other zoos and share them with other zoos. And so it's becoming this more insular thing over time. And again, this is just my opinion and where I see the trend

and what I see kind of happening from my own perspective and looking at things and looking at how public opinion really pushes. And people can come, and all it takes is a few negative people like on your Facebook page, raising a large concern about something that maybe isn't a big concern. You know, look at what happened with like polar bears being separated at the Denver zoo that were polar bears that were being separated in order to breed them and actually like put them into a breeding program where they would be bred and people freaked out and it turned into like a national news story and all these problems

associated with it from public opinion of people saying these polar bears are sad and they don't want to be separated and they've been together for all these years and and they're missing the point that they were being separated so they could be bred by opposite sexes of the of the of polar bears and so that we could continue to have polar bears uh in in a zoo setting and so like that that to me is something that is a perfect example of how public sentiment and how animal rights and all of these things that play into this, um, public pressure that comes on zoos were in my mind, it's just like zoos not working with the private sector is just easier. It's just easier to not deal with any of the headache that comes along with it or any of the potential risks that come along with it. Um, I think of like, you know, I don't want to throw out names or things, but within her

pediculture, I think of a company that was regularly sold to zoos all over the United States. And then all of a sudden, some of the people in the company are, you know, in trouble for smuggling timber rattlesnakes and moving them across state lines and selling them as captive bred in another state and that's a federally protected species so it's just kind of like one of those one of those things where you know that was a company that dealt directly with zoos consistently for years and years and then they were doing shady things and they were on file and they had a vetted process and they had a site inspection and they had all the things that they needed to have and

yet we're still doing this stuff under the table without people knowing and whether or not any zoos really had black eyes from that is is irrelevant i think that it made enough national news that that that could be a problem to the wrong person if they were to catch hold of that story and say x zoo bought this species from this place as a captive bred i mean the zoo was unknowing and what they did but you know that still looks bad it could still be on the wrong direction and you know that ryan said himself, you know, perception is reality. And so that perception is enough of a risk, at least for me. That's a pretty heavy right-handed hit there, man.

I don't know if we can recover from this one. What do you got, Ryan? You got a counter for that? Oh, there's so many points he just made in that 13 minute diatribe number one i guess i should have said this in the beginning but anything i say here are my own views and not the views of the cincinnati zoo yes yes yes for steve yeah a couple of points one um yeah there some perception. Animal rights is something you have to kind of look out for. But at the same token, the animal rights, which is different than the animal welfare movement, but the animal rights movement is something that I personally am not going to let dictate how we conserve animals, how we work with animals. My own

morality and ethics is going to dictate how that happens. And, you know, as far as working with people who may get busted after even filling out all the paperwork, you know, sometimes, I know it sounds terrible, but sometimes that happens and you learn from it. Mistakes happen. I mean, we work with wildlife to begin with, and wildlife is some of the most unpredictable things that can happen. Every day can be the same for two months, and then all hell breaks loose for a week or two, and you don't even know what's going on, or something like someone didn't fill a foot bath, and now there's a pathogen that made its way in somewhere. So I'm just, what I'm saying is there's, when you're

working with animals, there's risk involved everywhere. And I think that that isn't just with the animals and their health, but that goes throughout the place. And yeah, I think Steve made some good points earlier about, you know, usually when you are working with other zoos, not all the time, but usually when you're working with other zoos, there's a robust medical history that you can kind of use and see. And honestly, that's like a trend that I'm seeing in zoos is quarantine is, I don't know about you, Steve, but we are starting to take risk assessments on everything that comes in. And if there's a healthy medical history on an animal, it may not even go through quarantine. Sometimes there's no real reason, but in the case of working with someone where that history may not be there because maybe that animal's a wild-caught animal that was imported,

there is no medical history. In that case, it goes into a lengthier, more invasive quarantine project to make sure that that's healthy. As far as, and I'm trying to remember, like filling out paperwork, you know, that's an easy one. If someone wants to fill out paperwork and work with us and make things happen, then that's good. If they don't, well, sorry, we're just not going to do business. That's an easy one. Just walk on. If you go to someone's place and you don't feel like it's a moral place to be or an ethical place to be, don't support that crap. Like, uh, I wouldn't do it with

my own dollar in my, at home. Um, you know, so those kinds of points, although, um, they're good points. I mean, there's things there that is a, an important part of a decision tree of working with certain individuals. Um, I really just having standing your ground on what is acceptable and what is not, it's something you just have to do. And that may come off as elitist in some areas. But for the most part, man, it's the way you got to be. Like you said, perception is reality. But, I mean, I'm not going to do that paperwork to go buy a bearded dragon.

I don't know where you're going. Well, Zoom needs to buy a bearded dragon. I ain't bringing ball pythons on purpose unless it's for king cobra food um but that that's another i mean the you know there's uh rescues out there to get those types of animals for ambassador and you did bring up a good point with uh we could use our we use our ambassador programs a lot especially with reptiles they i mean do you have an ambassador program, Steve? Yeah, I don't overstate it.

They got pancake tortoises, I bet. They do have pancake tortoises. Not to keep hitting on the pancake tortoises, but they got pancake tortoises. We have about a half dozen pancake tortoises. They're just not good exhibit animals, man. They're not they're not the best they're they're okay we have one on exhibit with an angolan python oh yeah and then geographically it hurts my head it hurts my head yeah because they're like east coast west coast

but you know they're making it work and yeah they are it's in a six foot by two foot by two foot uh habitat and you can always at least see a part of them. Sometimes it's just best to not ask questions. Yeah. Well, just hope that it keeps working. Zogeographically accurate exhibits are what we strive for. They're both in Africa. That's true.

They are both in Africa. Not a very big place yeah are there things that uh private keepers can do to kind of be more in line with what a zoo is looking for as far as getting animals from that keeper is there is there a way that keepers can kind of increase their uh keeping or or what what what would we do to help zoos find us interesting? I mean, Steve mentioned some stuff earlier and it's, you know, don't be afraid to make changes to your husbandry. Animal welfare is a huge thing. If you do want to work with a zoo and aquarium, they come to do in-site inspection and they see permanent housing in rack systems and whatnot, you may not make it far.

Importers and things like that, they may use those systems as temporary holding and you have to take that into consideration. There are vetting processes already there. I think one of the best examples of more of a private hobby who works incredibly well with both the private or an organization works both well with zoos and the private hobby who works incredibly well with both the private or an organization works both well with zoos and the private hobby is the turtle survival Alliance or a 501 C three. And they are, they went through the process. They're not AZA accredited, but they are AZA certified I think is, is the term they use.

And they work extremely well with zoological institutions and the private hobby and really have kind of set a benchmark um so not everyone's gonna not every private hobby is going to be able to participate but i think having those things and you know really just going like do you have a vet like that the one like that's one easy question that i think every home hobbyist or breeder should have. They should at least know their name. Like, oh, yeah, that's Dr. Dalhousen. That's my guy. I go see him if I have a sick animal or something I'm worried about.

But it's not for everybody. But, I mean, the process, I think, is just getting to be known. Now, there is a list through the tags, Steve, of places that have had on-site inspections and that we do share. So it's not, like you said, it's not one institution just doing that. There's multiple institutions so if another zoo wanted me to check out a place that was in cincinnati you know i would and they said can you would you mind doing an on-site inspection they know you're calm sure i'll go out and look and i'll give them my honest and if it's good boom uh they fill out the paperwork they have their their ducks in a row you know then they're on

the list and that's not a list like you're on and you're there forever. I mean, you get rechecked on those. I think three years for us, for any vendors that make it through the process, they have to go through it again. Because a lot can change. You guys ever go, I mean, obviously somebody who fails, do they ever come back and re-inspect? Or once you're blacklisted, that's it? I would say probably, yeah, it depends on the situation, right? Yeah.

You're going to get that blanket or that answer from probably both Steve and I on different things a lot because everything is so specific to the scenario. What did they get blacklisted for? Did their permit expire by one day? How bad the zoo needs the animal yeah just saying yeah that might be a bigger issue with the megafauna you know they probably wouldn't even know yeah um but yeah i mean is it something where they like somebody got busted on breaking some major laws with some species that are heavily protected? And then, yeah, that company or person or vendor was going to be blacklisted, and rightfully so, for a lot of the reasons Steve mentioned.

But that doesn't mean you should stop working with private hobbyists. There's bad apples everywhere, man. And like I said, you're just trying to minimize risk. But, you know, if we kept just breeding everything ourselves and passing along with zoos, we probably would have a very difficult time maintaining genetic diversity. We have a lot of species survival plans, which are for particular species. And the biggest, the number one goal is to have enough animals with genetic diversity that you can maintain 90% genetic diversity over a hundred years. And at some point that's just not going to happen if we don't have blood from somewhere else, we don't have that kind of thing going on. And, um, What do you consider, I guess, uh, an acceptable level of genetic diversity?

I would imagine that would differ with different species or, I mean, you've got some, some lizards like the Egernia, you know, that, that kind of maintain a family group and the babies stick around for a while. And there is some mixing with other populations, but it's largely, you know, a little bit of an inbreeding situation there. So I'm curious, like what what what kind of level of genetic diversity would a zoo be looking at is there any standard always looking to maintain at least 90 genetic diversity over a 100 year period however many generations that is that's not necessarily for all animals that is for these particular animals that are identified as a, as a species survival plan.

Pancake tortoises. Yeah. So how many, how many individuals does that include then with say pancake tortoises as an example? Totally depends. And there's several different levels. Like for one,

we like Pascagoula map turtles. I'm a program manager for that particular species, at least for now until everything shuffles. Right. But I needed to have at least 20 individuals. That was the benchmark for this particular species that over a hundred years, that amount of genetic diversity within that group would statistically be able to maintain a minimum of 90% diversity over 100 years. And that can change. And now if I had – and that would make it maybe like a red-level SSP.

If I had 50 individuals, that might make it a yellow. And then if you have 100, like pancakes, green. There's plenty of them. Things like that. But that's another – But I would imagine that wouldn't like those those twenty five to one hundred animals would all be from different clutches or different parents. I mean, as much as you can. Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is, if it's an animal that we don't that you don't know, it goes in as unknown. You don't take a risk. You just say unknown. And it's basically a lot of those animals get identified as do not breeds or. Yeah. There's never going to be selected for that kind of stuff but gotcha without working with private individuals it's gonna be difficult to

maintain a lot of that genetic diversity and a lot of these programs and this may be a product of the system but a lot of these programs can fade if you don't bring in new genetic stock. And really, so if we can't work with a private individual to kind of bring in some of this new genetic stock, it may compromise the conservation of a species in zoological institutions because we can't do that. And that's bogus in my mind for a number of reasons. But in this particular fight, is um like we have to work with the private individuals be able to do that okay that was a solid uppercut man steve's reeling a little bit i think

all right let's let's have a little uh rebuttal there from you steve what do you got hey you know like i i think um you guys know that this is a really difficult point for me to defend but as far as uh as far as uh ryan's concerned like he's done an amazing job of explaining like the intricacies of all this like and again you know i think we're getting close to our time limit. I just wanted to say, like, with zoos working with the private sector, the one example Ryan brought up of TSA, that's a really good example of what's possible. And that turtle and tortoise folks within the private herpetoculture they kind of do it i think the right way they're a good model for working with aza institutions because

they have these animals that are so long-lived they have to work with aza institutions and with each other to map all of this out and trade and make sure that their genetic diversity is intact. And I, I just, I always looked up to the turtle and tortoise guys. I was never a turtle or tortoise person. I never really like gravitated towards that at all, but I always thought that they managed their animal populations really, really well. And because of that, because of the way that they manage their animals and track things and are thorough, they are a lot easier to work with when it comes to a zoo or an aquarium, because a lot of the time they have their paperwork in order.

They're already dealing with things that are CITES Appendix 1 that are, they have a CBW permit for. I'm thinking of things like radiated tortoises and galops and, you know, things that fall within that rubric that zoos are interested in having or are a part of having in their collections. And I think of, you know, people breeding radiated tortoises to help fund conservation measures in Madagascar, selling offspring to protect the wild population that's left. That's like the point, right? Like that's what we should be doing as like private herpetoculturalists. We should be moving towards that road. That's a good model um that's in my opinion the the mindful

approach to keeping and breeding reptiles there should be a purpose behind it outside of i want this animal i want to have it in my collection or whatever it is there should be some sort of a purpose um and i'm kind of like diverging off i I'm not really rebuttaling Ryan's response anymore at this point. Rebut! I just wanted to say that he's absolutely right. That working, TSA is an organization that does it the right way and is a good model for people to kind of copy. You have to keep meticulous records uh take your

animals to the vet take your animals to the vet get a herpet take your animals to the vet document it when things go wrong document it when things go right documentation there's so much what i call low-hanging fruit there's all of this scientific knowledge that we are literally just like flushing down the toilet like all the time just because we don't take the time to sit down and write a natural history note or write a breeding note or whatever it might be if it gets published in her preview and no one reads it who cares it's there for future people to go back and look at and say okay okay, this happened, this weird thing happened in this collection somewhere. Um, so as a private hobbyist,

you do have a lot of power. You do have a lot of, you can drive and push the herpetoculture culture into the way that it should go. You know, at least you can influence change within your, within your levels and within your communities that you are a part of. That might be a way to kind of get in the door and work with a zoo is if you can work with, you know, to publish an article. I mean, are there people at the zoos that would want to publish with a private keeper and help them get their article into Herp Review?

Is that a possibility? Because that would be fantastic would be fantastic right i mean people can get published they're a lot of people want to they don't get it yeah but another way you you touched on something that made me think like we give a lot of uh money to us arc for the work that they do and it's not to say we should take money away from them that's not what I'm saying but what I what I am saying is a really good way to help out if you're interested in working with zoos at some point is to you can reach out to me if you want and I can kind of help direct you but donate to a tax on advisory group that money goes a long frickin way I don't know if you need to tag with uh was it brad in

oklahoma do he's got this amazing conservation set up with um alvarez i the beaded lizards insane i would love i'm gonna throw in five bucks just so i can say i donated to it but yeah but those tax on advisory groups that it goes that money goes a long way to to not just in situ or xc2 conservation but a lot of it goes to field work a lot of it goes to supporting the people and the things out there and when you start making donations there it goes a long way because those those are not well funded yeah it's very hard to get funded to study reptiles in the natural environment yeah and so that's an easy way just to along those lines like that basically all of the stuff that we know about wild komodo growth pattern and a lot of natural history stuff that came from

aza zoos funding that research over successive years. And that money came from people throwing money into that program and directing money from ticket sales or whatever it might be towards that program. And all of that is funded by the majority of it is funded by zoos. And so that's something else that is a huge, huge thing that when you come to a zoo, to an AZA zoo, you are helping to fund conservation work in the world. Whether you know it or not, when you buy a ticket, most zoos, a portion of your ticket goes directly towards conservation funding, whatever it might be. It might be a grants program, it might be direct funding that goes from the zoo's main conservation budget into whatever various programs that zoo has committed to fund. It might not get directed exactly where you want it to go, it might not be reptile related or whatever. But at the same time, when you come to the zoo, that's what you're doing. And that's

what the zoo's missions are now. For a long time, I think that people think of zoos in this old style of thought where it's just this menagerie of animals for you to come in and look at. And it is in some ways that, but it's so much more than that now. in order for zoos to stay relevant and current, they've diversified and been pushing into conservation for years and years and years, that we've helped to push and fund all this conservation research and all of this natural history research. I mean, all of that information is important. It's important to us mainly because as humans it helps us understand our world and helps us understand where we fit into the world. And that is like the whole point of being alive in some ways.

I think that how we fit into things and what your nature is as a human being is the reason that we're here. You know, like figuring out why you're alive and what your life is and what your life has meaning for. And I think that in some ways that, you know, that's how we do it. We just go out and we look at things and figure out how it fits together and then how we fit into that rubric and how we fit into that. Yeah. So Ryan, if we could get some links up on the Reptile Fight Club page to some of these potential places that would be good to donate to. I mean, we don't want our money going to some PETA organization or something that's going to just fund legislation against our keeping.

But yeah, if you could get some legitimate stuff where we could donate. Contact me. Contact me because really what will happen is if you do want if you're interested in donating to something like that what you're going to have to do is i'm going to i'll have to provide an email address basically to the treasurer of said advisory group whether that's the amphibian advisory or not and i'm just not going to do that without talking to somebody and saying hey i've got somebody who's interested what are you thinking so that's how that moves, which makes it harder to donate, sure.

I was kind of laughing while Steve was talking there because we went from a fight to kind of holding hands. Steve, what are you doing to our fight here? I'm a pacifist, you guys. There's no hand-holding in my club. Conscientious objector a very good thought to have and i think this is what zoos make you have because in herpeticulture whether you want to admit it or not a large part of you is always like it'd be nice to breed 20 instead of 10 of these because i'll get a little more money that way and whether you're like that well, that way I can give a better enclosure, it doesn't matter what it's for, but that is in your mind. One of

the things that I love about working in a zoo is that you are providing care and you are doing something for nothing in return. And that is so rare in herpeticulture still, is to not expect something back. To do something because you to do something because it's awesome. And because it makes you feel good inside, that's what you're getting back. And that, that animal is not giving you anything back though. Yeah.

Keep that in mind. People, that's a little nugget. Yeah. I think that will guide you towards becoming a better keeper, quite honestly. And we've encouraged that here to keep a species. That's not going to

benefit you monetarily, but that you, that needs somebody to work with it. You know, whether it be a commonly imported species that people consider like a garbage species, you could be an ambassador for that species. You know, you'd say, Hey, anolis are cool. They're, they're not just some feeder lizard, you know, they're, they're, they've got these cool behaviors and, you know, get excited about them. And that will in turn get other people excited about them. And people will stop looking at them as, you know, garbage animals or throwaway or, you know, temporary pets and look at them for what they truly are. Yeah, they're throwaway animals until they're not. Yeah, yeah.

And when they're not, they're just not there anymore. Exactly. That's what's going to happen. Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, we won't be able to save them without working with private hobbyists. That's true, right? You're the winner. One last thing.

I did tap out. All right. Well, guys, I think this has been an informative discussion. And you guys both bring up some good points on both sides. And hopefully we'll take that to heart as private hobbyists. And I really appreciate you guys coming on. Thanks for your input. And if somebody wanted to get in touch with you, Ryan or Steve,

how might they do that if you're comfortable with people getting in touch with you? Yeah, getting in touch, find me on Facebook, Ryan Dumas, right there. Use my personal email for now, rad.reptiles82 at gmail.com. Once I know you're not a psycho, I'll be happy to give you my phone number. We can talk or text or whatever. But you haven't given me your phone number. Does that mean I'm a psycho? I'm still vetting you through the process.

Can you do a site inspection for me? I have. I'd be happy to talk to anybody about zoological stuff and potentially working with zoos at some point. It's not going to be for everybody, but it is an important aspect of conservation or at least preservation, if nothing else. Where do your interests lie in herpetoculture? What kind of species are you excited about or involved in? I've gone through the gamut in my years. There were times

where I felt like I was an amphibian specialist, but when it's all said and done, it's ended up coming full circle, and it's turtles and tortoises. I get so much feedback from those guys. My collection is dwindling in the snake realm and more towards the turtles, and the kids love it.

I work a lot with the Canixas homey Anna and that's a, that's a garbage tortoise, right? It was 75 bucks for a tortoise that was going to live two months from the reptile show. And you know, they're vulnerable and they're declining rapidly. They're only going to be vulnerable for a little longer.

And that's a species I'm working with a couple of people, Jeremy Thompson and check out the Canixas working working group a private hobby or a private that may um may see rise soon but i mean we're interested in breeding and just exchanging animals and without money changing hands necessarily um just for the strength of the i mean that's the kind of stuff that I get into now. I say that, but I'll also post some snakes for sale at some point, but, but no, but that project means a lot to me. That's kind of what we were talking about earlier, having those projects that are important, that are mean something and that are helping those animals. Cause you know,

you, like you said, they just get, you know, they don't live long once they're imported there, they come in, you know, in rough shape. So hopefully you guys are making some inroads into figuring out how to keep these things happy. Cause it seems like that's been a difficult thing for people to figure out. Yeah. We don't know crap, man. For as much as we know, relative, relative, we know some things, but really we don't know anything. I mean, how many species of snakes and lizards and frogs and shit are they? And we keep like a lot of people, if you look at your setup, and especially in a rack system, you're like, well,

I have carpet pythons and ball pythons and Angolan pythons. And you're like, well, shit's all set the same, man. Like it might work, but we're not getting that interaction. We're not learning a whole lot from that situation. And that's not me bashing racks. They have their place. I choose to limit my use with racks. Anyways, yeah, sorry.

It's a diatribe there again. No. How about you, Steve? What kind of stuff are you interested in? What species and how can people get in contact with you? Yeah, so same with Ryan. You can find me on Facebook. I'm not super-duper active on Facebook these days.

I try to limit my social media use a little bit here and there just because it's better for my own personal mental state. I think we'd all benefit from that. Yeah, but you can message me on there. I might just take a little bit to hear back. Also, I post on Instagram periodically. So just on Facebook facebook it's just steve sharp and um there's probably other steve sharps that have reptile stuff on there but

you know what's your instagram handle my instagram handle is mindful herp at mindful herp so you can find me on there and just have um you know you like pictures of lizards and stuff you know that's mostly what i post on instagram these days but um yeah i mean as far as my own personal interests i i think i will always uh you know my first love is australian lizards and i think it will always be that until until i'm old and dead but uh yeah i think uh uh Australasian lizards is a big focus for me North American desert adapted lizard xeric species is a big a big focus for me right now um I've just enjoyed uh mostly lizard heavy throughout the years but um lots of geckos monitors um I loved working with various adaptatria species and, you know,

all the little dwarf monitors and, you know, all this stuff that kind of I gravitated towards without knowing as a kid how expensive and rare some of this stuff was. And I was just like, I just like it. I don't know why, you know, kind of a thing. And I think that uh for me though just moving forward i think if i do keep anything in the future at home it will be in a large naturalistic enclosure that will just be a couple you know a pair of something or or uh you know the

the goal would be to make uh like a biotope, like species-specific plants that are from the region and an animal all regionally represented in a little slice of whatever it is that I create. trying to push our exhibits into that realm of a biotope uh instead of a you know like a zoo geographically uh monstrosity of you know angolans and pancakes well i wasn't gonna say that but because i i also have exhibits like that too it works for the general public they you know they don't have to necessarily know the region that things come from. I've got plants from all over the world. Pothos is everywhere, I'm sure. Pothos is everywhere. The Chinese evergreen.

Yep. Just don't put cheatgrass in your exhibits. I hate that. Ficus ginseng. We have a lot of ficus ginseng in our exhibits at Fresno. Cool. Well, thank you guys once again. And hopefully we've all considered some new things through this discussion, this fight, this hand-holding, whatever you want to call it.

All right. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Well, I'm heading out for a reptile uh herping trip tomorrow morning at 4 a.m so i'm gonna get out of here and get some sleep get back fun but yeah should be it should be a good time i'm going out with the the uh morelia pythons radio guys and the herpetoculture network guys so hopefully we can get them to fight a little bit on the on the trip and record it for another episode or something nice on on that note man uh let's let's just uh run it down real quick for everybody uh you know check out uh the npr radio network uh eric and

owen on npr um there eric and owen are also doing herp history so that's uh her history of herpetoculture they've had some fantastic guests on for that. And if you want to get your carpet cliff notes on, you know, compare notes and figure out what's what in the carpet world. Check that out. That's Eric and Owen as well. And then Riley Jimison and Owen are doing Colubrid Corner. So if you're into colubrids, check that out. Also the Student of Serpent. That's Eric the student of serpent that's eric and rob

so that's kind of a a deep dive on species oh they did a they did a cool interview this uh last week with the guy from on west texas herping so that was very uh timely for our nice are you going out with him or oh yeah well i don't know if he's meeting us out there, but he gave some really nice advice on where to be and where to go. Sweet. Sweet. All right. Also check out Carpet Cliff Notes.

That's Eric and Lucas Lee. So they're, they're, they're talking, you know, oh, I already, I already, I plugged that one already. Ah, my bad. Well, you get it twice. So the Field Herping Podcast. I don't know if anybody has listened to that, but that's Eric and Nipper Reed. Humans of Herpetoculture, I know Justin was on an episode of Humans of Herpetoculture with Lucas Lee.

So that's another good one for people to check out. And if you're into monitors like myself and Steve, check uh check out alan stevens and kai fan they they kind of go into different monitors and feeding and all kinds of interesting topics around monitors um and then the australian herpetoculture podcast with uh luke netum and and jason rogers that's uh i've been enjoying that man i i i love the aussie i love the aussie perspective uh It's great. And then, you know, stay with us, man. Reptile Fight Club, Justin and I. We'll be back for another episode. Thanks, everybody, and have a good one.

Yeah, thanks. We'll catch you next week for another Reptile Fight Club. See you guys. Thank you.