Reptile Fight Club - Reptile Fight Club and Breeding as a Benchmark

Episode Date: December 3, 2021

In this episode, Justin and Chuck talk about breeding reptiles as a benchmark of success. Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to the edition of Reptile Fight Club. I am here with you, Chuck. I am here with Mr. Doctor. Oh. Justin. Oh. Julander. I didn't go to 12 years of graduate school to be called Mr.

How does that line go? Eight years. I guess it wasn't 12 years of graduate school to be called a mister. How does that line go? Eight years. I guess it wasn't 12 years. That would be embarrassing. Yeah, I wouldn't say you really weren't a good doctor, but if you had to do 12 years, advice eight. You're really taking the long, expensive route. Including the undergraduate, right?

There you go. There you go. There you go. Okay. I'm with that. I'm with that. Well, man, it's been a little while, I guess, since we recorded. Yeah. You seem a little tired.

I am tired. Working hard. Yeah. Yeah. You know, just a stressful day for the family, a stressful day for work and we're in the holidays and we're getting ready for our, um, you know, we have, we have a big Navy inspection. So Naval inspectors come in and inspect all of our programs.

And so we're getting geared up for that and we're a new program that's standing up. So it's, it's always a struggle to, you know, get, um, get everything in place that wasn't in place. And so, um, you know, just, just, just busy, busy, busy. So, yeah. Did you have a good Thanksgiving? You guys, uh, I did, I did. Yeah. I had to work, uh, the Friday after Thanksgiving. So no, you know, while partying or anything, but, but it is nice. I got, I actually got a lot of stuff done cause everyone else was on vacation. So it's, you know, you're not dealing with everybody putting out everybody else's fires. You can just kind of work on your own fire. So, but yeah, it was good. Low key, just, you know, turkey dinner with

the family. We played some video games post dinner and I went to bed shortly after that. So nice. Yeah. Yeah. How about you? Yeah, we, it was a little, I mean, it was a lot of fun. We had a good time and all the families together. We played some games, went to my parents for Thanksgiving day and, uh, Heidi was sick. So she didn't end up coming. My son, Jake didn't come. So it was just me and the girls that went, but, and I, I got a cold, you know, I was out of work for, you know, the week before or the few days before Thanksgiving. And it's still kind of sticking around.

My voice sounds all a little off, but yeah. So it sounds like I need to clear my throat the whole time. Yeah. So that'll be fun for our listener. So what do you do? But yeah, still trying to kick that. I guess you got to specify that it's a non COVID cold. Cause there you go.

This day and age, right? You got the Omicron. Yeah, man. this day and age right you got the omicron yeah man that's uh it should be uh interesting i guess but yeah well it's uh it's just i i the whole politics is i mean this yeah the whole the this is a very political virus and i mean it's it's, it sucks. Like obviously South Africa just kind of blew the whistle on this and it's in, I mean, every, it seems to be already in the United States. It's in California. It's in every major European city. So the idea that we were, we were trying, we were containing it from South Africa and this, you know, I mean, it, I agree with the South African leader that said that they were being

punished for being the ones who spoke up about it. It really makes you wonder, and this virus, this new strain supposedly has accrued something like 50 new mutations. And if that's the case, like what, you know, are we just not testing? Are we kind of like, you know, ostrich head in the sand in this and we're not testing at a level we should? And, you know, and if it can mutate that much that fast, is there even a point to, you know, doing excessive testing that we just do kind of the best we can and we, you know, doing excessive testing that, that we just do kind of the best we can. And we, you know, protocol and protect as best we can. And, and it's interesting. I guess the plus side is showed up, you know, on the test, they discovered it and it's known about and sequenced. I mean, back in the day, you couldn't sequence a virus genome in a,

you know, a day or two. These kinds of things are a luxury of, of our time. I mean, it's, it's in the speed at which science has worked to, to combat this virus and this and get a vaccine out. And it's, it's a, it's just a miracle. I mean, it's as fast as it's ever been done. And, you know, I guess people have pause and that's fair enough, but I mean, we've, we've vaccinated what 300 million people or 400 million doses or some crazy thing. I think, I think we know kind of the dangers of it at this point. I mean, long-term effects, it's not going to be any worse than the virus guarantee right you know that you've got one protein oh no scary stuff i i don't know i've got a a good friend who was my swim coach who's just goes off on the vaccine all the time and i'm like dude he you know he's like oh they're they're hiding things they're not sharing and it's like well no they publish the the data on people who are harmed by the vaccine or potentially harmed by the vaccine. And it's like, what, 0.001% versus, you know, a legitimate 2% chance of death with the virus itself.

So, I mean, you're straining at a gnat and swallowing an elephant, you know, it's just kind of a silly thing. Well, I mean, you can get arrhythmia from too many energy drinks like yeah i mean like you you you i mean i get i get i get that there is people have a concern about taking a virus but it's a it's a risk versus reward type of question right and it's a statistical it's right it's just the virus yeah it's but it's a statistical you And it's a statistical, right. It's a statistical, you know, it's a statistical calculation and a risk versus reward thing. And we do that all the time, all the time, every day, all the time. So, you know, just, you know, if you don't, and it's crazy too, like going back to the politics of this, like we just went through a huge thing where, you know, everybody in the federal government had to be vaccinated and we had people who didn't want to get vaccinated.

And I mean, I was having to have meetings and counsel people and talk to them and make sure they understood that they could, know get suspended or potentially lose their job over it and then biden's like nope we're not gonna we're not gonna suspend anybody we're not gonna fire anybody and it's like i mean not that i not that i want not sure i want people to get fired but why even say anything why threaten everybody yeah why you know it's just like like i i i mean it's foolish it it it kind of cuts it like how stupid the politics of all this is. And it's like, and like, to your point, the science really is pretty good. And we're doing pretty good with the science end of it. But we're just mucking the freaking heck out of it on the political end of it. And it's like, we can't get it our own way.

First time I've seen a virus be politicized. And I mean, it bears out in the data, you know, like the, it's, it's insane, you know, and, and I don't know, maybe, maybe more Republicans are skeptical about things naturally and, and they distrust government things and, and they see this as a government action somehow. I mean, it was a pharmaceutical company that made it, but anyway, you know, it's, I get it, but you know, we're kind of past that point, I think. And you, you need to look at the data and just say, okay. Yeah. Anyway, we could go on about this all day. We could get fired up about viruses. I mean, that's my day job, right? That's when you've got a PhD in 20 years of experience

working with viruses and different model systems. And then you have some internet jockey tell you that you're wrong, you know, and that they know more about vaccination and it just, it's just warms the heart. It's hilarious. Yeah. I mean, I guess it's the same anywhere, you know? Yeah. Well, I mean, you're internet experts,

you know, they've had a bearded dragon for a day and they're telling everybody. And you know what, dude, if, if you have a legitimate doctoral degree in something and somebody who's on the internet can tell you all about some stuff that they know that you don't know on a field that you're an

expert in move on move on you're right go not worth my time yeah good luck have fun yeah but unfortunately people are listening to those folks instead of the experts i mean they're trying to drag pouches through the mud and all that and but and and and and those people who have the skeptical mindset and want to latch on to things that support their worldview, that's what they're going to do. And they were going to do that regardless anyway. You know what I mean? So it's like, I mean, I get it.

It is super frustrating. It is super stupid. And when it's 20% or 30% of the population, that's when it's you know from from where science and technology is we've come from to where it's taken us to where we're looks like we're headed it is a pretty sad commentary right like um and even even last time we talked about this subject on the podcast i I had somebody say, Oh, you know, you didn't have to get so political on the podcast. It's like, this is not politics. This

is science. You know, people are going against science and you usually expect reptile folks to be somewhat scientifically minded to some extent, you know, but. Well, I mean, dude, I don't, I mean, look, I guess, you know, my opinions and the way I view life fall into the realm of politics, because that's how we kind of parse, you know, our decision making now. So if I'm being political in that sense, sure, I would hope that I'm being common sense, because I can look at certain things that Republicans and Democrats say, and, and, you know, go from, you know, what makes sense to me and what doesn't. Certainly, you know, both sides are off in crazy land in different ways. So, you know, it's like if that is offensive and too political for people, I mean.

But talking about a virus infection and, you know, and, and, and a pandemic to me, that's virology. It's not politics. Maybe the way it's being handled, but people have you know, politicians have politicized it and use it as a talking point. And, you know, it's, you know, it, it really started under kind of under the, under Trump. And so Democrats took the opportunity to bash at him at how he handled it. And it's easy to poke at people when you're trying to contain a pandemic that the human race hasn't seen since probably 100 years, close to 100 years. So it's like, I, you know, I mean, I don't know, you know, moving on. Oh dude, my blackheads have been locking up pretty regularly and I'm hoping for something good in that that department that should be nice yeah otherwise things are

looking pretty good bunch of my uh antaresia are already refusing food and sitting under their heat lamps i don't know maybe they'll be nice and early this year we'll see um but yeah it's uh shaping up okay so far see how it goes how about you you? I just, I thought it was, I thought we were into, you know, winter here, but no, or, you know, back up into the eighties and that's how, that's how it is out here is like, it cools off and then it warms back up and it cools off. And so like, I just got a, you know, every year it does it to me and I'm like, oh yeah, why, why did I think when it cooled off, it was going to stay that way. And, you know, I have to remember that, you know, long into most of the country's winter, we're still experiencing, you know, summer conditions out here. And so just, you know, keep keep I'm just throwing that those extra small meals at the animals.

And, you know, I'll probably either taper off or cut off here in the next week or so. So yeah, just, just kind of doing the do so. Nice. Well, another milestone for me, all the, all the natural history chapters are laid out with photos. So that's pretty exciting. shut the front door i i i'd forgotten about very got a chapter the darwin carpet chapter and and uh like i i thought oh i'm all done and then i well nope i missed a chapter and i looked in the first edition and i think we had two two in situ wild specimens you know know, from the first edition. And, and now we've got, you know, what, 15, 16 photos from wild specimens in their, you

know, natural habitat and stuff. So it's, it's going to be, um, no, I'm trying to, I don't think we have any captive animals in the natural history chapters, except maybe one or two that, like Carinata illustrating the dentition, you know, their teeth gaping. And I just had some reasonable pictures of that from a captive animal. It was one of Terry's reptile gardens that he got to gate for me for some nice photos. So, uh, but yeah, other than that, it's all wild animals. And, um, I, I also did it where on the range maps, I've got the figure numbers, you know, where the animal was. Yeah. I kind of liked those kinds of range maps i think i sure i stole that from the barkers and you know to stand on shoulders of giants you know the barkers are the

the giants in the field for sure but yeah so that's kind of a nice way to do it but nice yeah we're gonna get this thing done it's gonna be done before too long here that's good and nick is making a huge push i mean he's you know he's cracking the whip and i'm cracking the whip where i was gonna say yeah yeah you guys are cracking whips on each other yeah and it's and it's making some getting some steam behind it i'm gonna send out the first chapters to to uh russ girley to lay out for um eco so nice yeah we're uh you're gonna do it a couple chapters at a time then i don't know i'll probably send so the natural history chapters we've got 10 chapters for for the different species subspecies that we've included in the book and then an introduction so

that's that's as far as i've got it up to And then Nick is kind of starting from the end of the book. So he's laying out the reproduction chapter and the, um, the, the morph section, which is already a behemoth. I don't know. It's going to be a third of the book, man. There's so many different combos and, and I've, I've kind of lost track of morphs. Frankly, I, I don't pay much attention to that. My excitement's the you know natural history and stuff and I you know I think Nick is as well but he's a little he's got his finger on the pulse a lot more than I sure are as what carpet morphs yeah I get I mean I guess I guess I am just in the same kind of boat as you I'm like wait there are like how I mean I can think of them but like yeah I mean, I can think of some, but like, yeah, I mean, I guess when you start, you know, mixing and matching them and that, you know. Yeah.

I haven't really seen any of the photos either. So that's kind of a, I need to text Nick and him, put it on the, we've got it on a, on a cloud system, the whole book where the first edition we, we didn't. And he did certain chapters chapters like the photo layouts for certain chapters. So, and then his, he had a computer crash and so he lost all that information. And so luckily I had most of the chapters, you know, close to final versions from the first edition on my laptop and then, or on my computer at work or whatever. And then I put it, you know, put all that on the cloud. So now we've got everything, all the photos, everything. So if we, I don't think we're going to be looking at a third edition, but I guess if,

if that happens, never say no. Yeah. We'll have everything kind of at our fingertips to, to make that process a little easier. But I mean, this is a complete overhaul of the first edition. It's going to be double, triple the size. It's going to be a behemoth. And yeah, I was going to say, you'll probably be able to knock somebody out with this book. Like it's going to be a big book. It'll be perfect for reptile fight club. Yeah. Yeah. Fight with it. When things go bad, we'll just start throwing the complete carpet at people exactly take that nice kingsnake.com shirt there

i like that hey yeah going retro here yeah i don't even know if i've been on kingsnake for how long i definitely haven't in a while like i i haven't i i'm friends with jeff on on facebook too and i don't even see him post that much anymore so yeah not that i not that i pay as much attention on facebook as i used to but yeah i mean i i kind of miss the days of the the forums and i do discussion boards and all that kind of stuff yeah yeah but those days are gone. I think it was nice to have a record, you know, you don't have that with social media. It just goes away. It doesn't. Yeah. It's well, it's meant to go. I mean, if it were to stay, then people would go back and look at what other people had said. Now, now it's like, we got to keep moving the, you know, I mean, new content,

new conversation, new, new, new, new. So you just need to keep everything churning. So I think a database history would just not benefit the way the platform really works. Yeah. Sucks, man. Sucks. Definitely. It was nice to be in a thread that was starting to go crazy and you got to go sleep and

then you wake up the next day and you're like, Oh my God. And you're reading to catch up and it was like, Holy shit. This is fun. Took a turn overnight. Oh yeah. It was so fun. Those were, those were fun days for sure. Especially when you're in the thick of it, you know,

typing as fast as you could to get response out there no doubt well you're ready to fight i suppose okay well that didn't before with you if you got that attitude here well you know all right, tonight we are fighting about breeding as a benchmark for success in reptile keeping. So what does that mean? What does that mean? What does that mean? Yeah, let's let's flesh it out a little bit. So to me, that means, you know, if, you know, there's the attitude or that concept of if my animal's breeding, then I'm doing the best I can with my husbandry. Or, you know, that's kind of the gold standard

of if you're keeping your animals successfully is if they'll breed. And so we're going to debate the pro and con of that, you know, take one side or the other on that issue. Okay. Yep. All right. You ready to lose?

I mean, you ready to do a coin toss? Coming out swinging here. Yeah. Hey, give it a call. Heads. It is tails. Well, not right. I don't have Frank on here this week.

I don't care. I think. So I, all right. I just want to real quick before we get into it. I was, you know, got the privilege to fight Frank the last time, last show. And I was trying to make a point. I went back and listened to it and I'm a pretty big Frank Payne fan. So it was, it was pretty, pretty awesome to get to fight him. And that was a good show. Yeah. And, and, uh, I, but I, I went back and listened and I really thought I had made this point, but I was talking with him about, you know, having a hard time discerning things off of the internet because of interests that different interests that people have lane. And, and I started talking about technologies and I didn't

drive home the point of when people bring new technologies, they have a they have a vested interest in selling that technology so they can get that that that part of their, you know, part of the new economy and make money off of it. And so, you know, the idea that you have to kind of be careful with anything that that people are selling. And I kind of touched on lighting as an example, as people will tell you, oh, this light is great, or this is the new thing because it's a new technology. And you have to kind of be discerning about that. And I think I went on to say something about how new technologies are always good in that we have them. But I don't think I really brought home the point that what I was trying to say was that you have to be very careful because there's a lot of interests, different interests that people have when you're talking about things. And if somebody comes out with, oh, this light is the best because, you know, whatever they're

saying, you know, you kind of saying you know you kind of have to you kind of have to take you with a grain of salt yeah and or or kind of realize that maybe other people have interests that lie beyond just giving you um the light you need for your gecko or for your whatever you're doing um as the best thing for you to do. I mean, they may believe that, but they're also trying to sell their product or they're trying to get you to buy into something that they believe is right, which may not necessarily be the case. It may be worked for them or they haven't seen any ill effects of it, but it doesn't mean that it's right. So, and I think Frank even touched on that a little where

he said he was criticized for some of the lighting he uses. But I mean, you'd be hard pressed to, you know, to criticize Frank's success using the lights that he uses with how well he's done. So, yeah, I just wanted to kind of go back and, and kind of, you know, solidify that point. Cause I, when I heard it, I was like, ah, I knew what I meant to say, but that is not what came out. Like, yeah. So yeah, no, that's a great point. Yeah. That's, uh, that is a, an important thing to consider. Cause I, you know, I, I like to see the data, you know, if there's, there's so much out there that that's a folklore herpetology where, you know, they, somebody did it once and they had success. And so that became what everybody did

just because that was part of the formula for success, whether or not, you know, it could be scooping snow into a cage, you know, may have no effect at all, but because they did success, whether or not, you know, it could be scooping snow into a cage, you know, may have no effect at all, but because they did it, it's like, yeah, you may be akin to like a sports, you know, when you're your sports team, you know, Oh, I wore this shirt. I didn't wash it. And my team won. So I'm going to wear that shirt every game and Oh, they won again. So it must be the shirt, you know, yeah you see basketball they do like their free throw like their free throw pre-shot thing where they like do the same thing every time yeah yeah i i feel kind of the same way and and i you know i i do think that that like you know the new technologies are good i just yeah you know we want to push it forward

you just you know but you need to read out you need, you know. But you need to read out. You need some data. You need to show what you're getting is what they're purporting it to be. And that's hard sometimes with reptiles, you know. It definitely goes along with what I was trying to impart is, you know, when we were talking about not just relying on the care sheet and, you know, let it get you started and, and guys like Frank and, and the information that they give her absolutely critical, but like always think beyond that. So when you're looking at lighting, think not just about the lighting, think about the data,

think about the interest of the person who's telling you what, you know, why you should get this or why, you know, that, because, you know, there are people who make their living, you know, why you should get this or why, you know, that, because, you know, there are people who make their living, you know, selling products and that's a relevant reason to, to kind of say, okay, am I making the best decision right now? Can you show me some more data on this or can I, you know, whatever, but I, and I've just, you know, I'm on a day gecko uh forum on Facebook and yeah I'm definitely on a day gecko cake but but I just you know some of the some of the advice that's given there isn't

the advice I would give and I just you know I you know I hate to jump on there and be like don't do that that's not a good idea but you know sometimes I don't know where that person lives like, don't do that. That's not a good idea. But you know, sometimes I don't know where that person lives. Like, cause I can't see their profile where they live. I don't know what their situation is and they don't list that, but people are just telling them all these different. And you know, I would not put, I would not put day geckos on ceramic heat emitters, but people are like, Oh yeah, that's great. Like, I don't know, man. That's what private messaging is for. You can maybe send them a message and give them a clue, man. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely agree there. Yeah. So, all right. Well, sorry.

You feel good about that, that delivery now? You okay? I mean, I feel better that I've set my record straight a little bit. My record was skipping when I tried to make that point. Well, let us get to the topic. So you win. You win again. Again. You choose what? I don't know know I haven't

really I could go either way on this one I think well pick away I will go that it is a benchmark sure okay it's a benchmark

so and I will i like that you win the coin tosses but you take maybe the the the the the the the the side that i think you're probably least uh likely to you to what you think yeah well you've you've discovered my plan i mean i i don't know i like to consider you like to argue this you're like my grandfather you like to argue the stake yeah yeah he loves he's like he'll take the worst position just so he can argue it like he loves that stuff it's yeah that's that's i i enjoy that as well so that's good just don't confuse me for your grandpa that's uh you you gotta you got he's like 97 world war ii veteran sold sold american steel after the war like he's

he's he's the he's the true blue yeah oh he's the salt of the earth of the the greatest generation like that man is uh he's he's he's an ass kicker, dude. Yeah. Well, I should, I should aspire to be so good. So, well, we should all aspire to be so good. Yeah. I agree. Well, I'll defer to you. Okay. Go ahead and lead us off.

Tell us why breeding isn't a benchmark. Well, I mean, you know, I think easy and obvious is that, you know, the primary drive of all animals is to reproduce. That's the most, you know, basic of functions in an animal and a plant is to carry its progeny on to continue to survive. And I think so, you know, while it's not always the easiest to get something to breed in conditions that are not suitable, especially reptiles where they maybe have eggs or, or have to, you know, have a gestation period, um, which is tied thermally, uh, to, and, and, you know, moisture wise to their outside environment. So, so they're definitely coupled to the climate that they're in and, and, and have to make decisions around that. Um, you know,

I think their, their primary drive is going to be to reproduce and, and, um, you know, if they think they can do it, uh, they will. Um, I think that's probably how I'd start off. I'll let you respond. Um, but, but yeah, I, I just, I think they're, you know, going for the gusto is every animal's, you know, primary drive. Yeah. Okay. You know, I would probably say it might depend on the species or the group, you know, the family, whatever, you know, way you want to break it down. Like we don't want to say that with the dodo bird or what?

What do you mean by that? Like pandas, you know, they seem to be hard pressed to preserve their genetics and seem like they're on their way out or something. Maybe the Chinese zoos and the San Diego Zoo, they're just not set in the right mood. You know what I mean? Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I mean, there's a lot of factors that go in. Yeah. I mean, but I, I agree. I mean, obviously things need to, to push their genetic information

on. And, you know, I guess what I'm saying is, you know, you know, like an insect versus an elephant, they have very different reproductive strategies, you know, humans versus, you know, rodents, you know, the rodents are just going to pump out babies as fast as they can because most of them are going to be food for raptors or snakes or whatever. And, you know, humans are, have huge amounts of parental care and, and even, you know, for their 30 year old son living in the basement or something, that kind of thing. So I think, you know, when you're compared, you got to kind of compare apples to apples. So like if you've got a chameleon, yeah, chameleons

are like the insects of the reptile world. So they want to get their, um, you know, get to size as quickly as possible to lay as many eggs as possible to reproduce as quickly as possible. So if you don't support that, they're going to breed themselves into death, right? The females will usually die egg bound if they're not bred early enough and rapidly enough and, and their condition isn't supported, um, to be able to reproduce, then they're probably going to burn out and crash. And so, I mean, the, the act of copulating or the act of egg laying is maybe not what I'm referring to when I say breeding is a benchmark, but maybe I would, would specify that as is, is continued successful breeding over generations would be my benchmark for success. And so, um, I'm glad you made that distinction.

Yeah. You're, you're a great example. I mean, people, people get stuff in, you know, imported in all the time that's gravid and they go, Oh, this, you know, my, my animal had babies or laid eggs or whatever. They didn't do anything to do that. The animals came in that way, you know, already knocked up or ready to lay eggs or have babies. And so, um, that's, you know, already knocked up or ready to lay eggs or have babies. And so, um, that's, you know, there, there's different levels of reproductive success. Just getting a clutch of eggs on the ground does not necessarily mean you've, um, supported the animals well enough to breed over generations, over successive years. Um, similar to, you know, what we're seeing with Tracy,

where you're the only one so far, as far as I know, that's bred them multiple years in a row, right? Two years in a row. And even that, I mean, two years in a row, isn't like, you know, that's, that's not like we can mission accomplished, put up the mission accomplished banner, you know? And I don't think you feel that way. I think you feel like I still need to, you know, put some work into it and figure things out. If I can do, if I can, if I can three-peat, you know, with a year off, like if I get three-peat with a year off making changes, then I'll feel like, okay, you know, like. Yeah. Yep.

And, and I mean, yeah, so you you're you're direct and that's you know the thing with herpetoculture is we're directing um their reproductive um output to some extent we can dictate whether or not they're going to be paired up or whether or not they're going to breed with this or that or the other and so you know there's a lot of we also inhibit the reproductive output because we make decisions like that as well. So I think that's, I mean, that's a huge distinction. Yep. And that's my point. I mean, what, what we do in herpetoculture often, you know, inhibits successful reproduction, especially, you know, with the larger pythons. I mean, sometimes, for example, the ball pythons, we didn't figure that out for a while. And then

once we kind of figured out what was going on, or at least got captive bred offspring to work with, that was kind of a big step in the right direction. And now they're almost to the point of being domesticated where, you know, if you can't reproduce a ball python, there might be something wrong with you. But I do think that you can mess up a ball python and you can not get your animals to breed. And, and, you know, that's almost as likely. And so there is that benchmark of, you know, if you can reproduce a ball python, you know, you're, you're doing something right. And if you can't, then you're probably doing something wrong or, you know, you're, you're doing something right. And if you can't, then you're probably doing something wrong or, you know, I mean, I guess, I, I guess, so couple things going back to your Panda, your Panda analogy. I mean, they seem to be able to keep Pandas alive in captivity long

term and, and, um, you know, don't have an issue there, but they do seem to have an issue, you know, with reproduction and, and, you know, what that reason is. And, and, uh, you know, they're, they're, I I'll be frank and just say, I don't, I don't know, uh, the natural history of pandas in the wild and, and, you know, obviously a lot of the reasons why their numbers are so low and, you know, what that is, I would expect is probably habitat related and, you know, we do, and ball pythons are a good example too. I mean, most people can keep a ball python alive for the longterm because they actually do fairly well at regulating themselves. They're, you know, unless you just aren't offering them water and they dehydrate themselves and die, or, you know, you cook them because you didn't use the thermostat or you do something that's gross, that bonifies gross negligence.

But I mean, if you try to overfeed them, they'll just stop eating on you. Does that mean that they won't still overeat eventually? Yeah, sure. But I think they have some basic biology built into them that kind of keeps them from doing that. And, and they'll live, you know, you can, you can not do super great and still do fairly well. And most people have bred their ball Python on accident. Right. So, you know know i think like a lot of the things we talk

about the exact that the the devil is in the details of the example right and and so you know if you're talking about a ball python maybe um maybe that's maybe not the best uh example for for for us as far as like, you know, reproduction being the benchmark for, you know, doing everything right with husbandry. But certainly I, I, I do agree with you that they're, you know, at some level, you know, overly stressed out and just not well taken care of, not, you know, animals that are not getting their needs met don't reproduce. And, oh, by the way, they don't tend to live very long either because they're, they're just not, you know, highly stressed out animals, you know,

just like highly stressed out humans are prone to disease and other, you know, it's, it's just how our, how our bodies are built. And I think, you know, when you, when you don't meet an animal's needs, when it's stressed out, when it's, you know, having a hard time all the time, yeah, you're, you're gonna, you're probably not going to have success breeding and yes, it's probably going to live a shorter life. And I think Tracy, I agree. Tracy are a good example of that. Oh yeah. So yeah. I mean, you're, you're a punching for me here. You're making my points for me. I appreciate that. All Python and Panda. Keep going. I think Pythons are definitely a great example of if you're

on the right track and you're doing things well, you're probably going to have success. And so you can use reproduction as a benchmark for, for pythons. Um, other animals, I mean, you know, things like, like I said, like chameleons, that's a whole different ball of wax and they will, they will breed themselves into, into death. And so they might not be the most, um, uh, apt example of if you're breeding them, you're, you're doing things right because things can go wrong pretty quick. And, you know, going with, going with our Frank Payne gecko theme, uh, the, the, the, the blue day geckos, they're highly prolific, highly prolific. But if you do not support those females, right, like Frank was saying with the calcium and, and, um, you know, just giving them a proper diet and, and, and

meeting all of their, their lighting needs and things like that, they don't, they don't, they, they crash and the females will die or, you know, you will get very sporadic egg production. And when the babies are born, a lot of times they'll crash and die. So I definitely think, you know, um, reproduction in certain animals like, like chameleons, like, like electric blue day geckos is definitely not just tied to, you know, just because you can reproduce it doesn't mean you're doing it right. I mean, I think, and I think there are hardy species that hide that pretty well, but you know, when, when, when they aren't supported, right. They, they just absolutely crash for it, you know?

Yeah. Well, I'm waiting for an example of what, what species might not be, uh, you know, use reproduction as a benchmark of success in herpetoculture. You have any ideas on that or you just can argue my point on that? I mean. Well, OK. I brought you on the ropes, don't I? Yeah, I'm you on the ropes don't i yeah i'm totally on the ropes so it's it's kind of stupid because you're like yeah if it can't reproduce itself it's still successful well

yeah anything you can keep alive long term is success right no well i'm saying these things if like it like if it's like i'm not not going to reproduce, but I'm successful. What, what, I don't like, what's my argument there? You know what I'm saying? Like, like, okay, I'll, I'll, I'll throw it. I guess I'm not understanding this, but like, I mean, I think that, I think that, um, you know, again, it depends on which example we're talking about. Yeah. But, you know, there's certain like, like, like you were saying that you clarified your point to reproduction long term being a benchmark for successfully keeping an animal. Well, yeah, yeah, totally, man. If you can keep it alive and keep it breeding long-term, that's like pretty much the whole kebab of, you know, what we're talking about, long-term success, right? So the opposite, what's my argument on the opposite end of that? Yeah, you know, if you can just fuck it off, never reproduce it and it stays alive, like that's good. Well,

you know, well, I mean, like, like rodent breeding, you know, you can have, you can have success. They'll breed, but you may not be, you know, doing, doing the best job you can. Right. You might have, um have some kind of vitamin deficiency because of the food you're using. And so you'll get like, I don't know, for example, I had a colony of rodents and I was buying this special rodent pellet made by my local farm and feed store. And they were reproducing. And then the store ran out of that rodent pellet. And so I had to resort to another food. And I think I just got some dog food, right?

And started feeding them dog food. Their reproduction just skyrocketed. Like it just went off. You know, they started producing a lot better, a lot more pups per litter. You know, they were weaning them, you know, weaning more. And, you know, I was keeping pretty good records back then. And I saw a huge change in my rodent production based on the food I was using. And so, I mean, yeah, they were breeding. Um, but I wouldn't say I was being very successful. I wouldn't say that I had it, you know, so what you're saying is so what you're saying is that

the the environmental factors such as the food you were feeding them the way you were keeping them mattered more to production than you know them them reproducing like so i mean i guess to me that's a different argument, isn't it? Like then you're talking about- Well, you're breeding them, but are you successful? Is that the best benchmark? But what the argument was, was is breeding a benchmark for long-term success or success with a species? And so your rod rodents were breeding they just weren't breeding as good and you change something and and now they're breeding better so i think that that goes to you know what i was saying is that every every animal's primary drive is reproduction

but how you support that animal giving giving the electric blue day gecko calcium to help support production and have healthier babies or giving a dog food to a rodent rather than a pellet to lies, whatever you are getting from your tack and feed to increased production. Those are all things that you clearly made alterations in how you did things, which led you to more successful breeding. Now it taking that, is it, is it, it was it the switching of the food that made them breed at more longer term, or was it the switching of the food that increased their output? Like, and how long did they last? Did they burn out quicker? Did they, so, you know, I mean, obviously rodents have, you know, a much shorter life than a lot of reptiles do. And so you kind of, especially with feeders, you have to, you know, have animals behind them that, that so when they burn out that, you know, you,

you kind of keep your breeding stock fresh. Uh, so, you know, mice are a, probably a pretty decent example of how you can look at long-term success, uh, as far as output for breeding. But I'm not sure that just breeding them is necessarily a, you know, a benchmark for success, right? Because I know, I know when I used to breed rodents and you and I have talked about this, that, that I, I didn't have them in an air conditioned room. And so in the summer when it would get warm, uh, and I guarantee anybody out there who breeds rodents is going to be like, yep, I know what you're talking about. They just shut down and you lose that production. But if you're able to climate control and you're able to keep them in a, you know, in a stable, cooler temperature, you know, room, a room temperature that they just

absolutely won't stop and you can just not miss a beat. So, you know, I think, you know, room, a room temperature that they just absolutely won't stop and you can just not miss a beat. So, you know, I think, you know, that that's kind of an example of, of when you don't meet their needs, then production stops. And so is that deleterious to their longterm? Well, yeah, I would say if you're stressing them out and you're causing them to shut down breeding, then it's those factors that you're not supporting with that will long-term not make you successful. I guess that's what I'm looking for from you is examples of how breeding isn't a benchmark for success. So we can kind of define the difference between, okay, this breeding or this output is successful. I mean, so yeah, you get an imported ball python and it drops a clutch of eggs.

Are you supporting that animal successfully or did it breed before it left Africa and, and dropped eggs on your cage floor? You know, those kinds of things, like that's an example of where breeding wouldn't be a benchmark for success. And, and so I'm saying my, my side is trying to figure out which examples are benchmarks of success. And so I, I, you know, the first one I led with was multiple generations, you know, successful breeding and successes of years. Like what happens when you, what happens when you raise up a pair of snakes and you get them to breed and the female slugs out every year that she breeds and you can't figure out why. Then your reproduction is a benchmark of success.

You're failing with those animals, right? Right. But why? You're not having success because you're getting slugs. And so you can say, you know, I got to figure out what's going on with these animals so I can be successful because right now I'm not having success and success being reproducing the, you know, producing offspring. So, so let's say you have animals that you don't have a pair of animals and they don't come in contact with each other. You know, there's obviously plenty of people out there like that.

How are they measuring their success long term like if they're not breeding their animals this the idea is that breeding is the long-term success right right if it breathes it can be in your long-term success right like like like is so is breeding a benchmark of success sure sure if you can reproduce something it can's, that's, that's a successful thing. Yes. I agree with that statement. Is that the benchmark? No, absolutely not. Because you have people who can breed stuff. It gets eggs, but it gets egg bound and it dies. You get animals that you see them cycle, you watch it go through and they never end up breeding for you. You get animals that are together and they just never do shit.

You know what I'm saying? So there's all these iterations that are tied to reproductive challenges in animals. And if you were to just look at saying like, well, reprodu, it, you know, producing, reproducing itself is the benchmark for me being successful with this. Well, maybe if your benchmark is reproducing the animal and you're a breeder, then yes, you're, you're failing at that. But if your benchmark is keeping the animal alive long-term, like the, the 21, two-year-old coastals I have outside, then I don't look at the benchmark of reproduction as being the goal. Now, if they still breed at that age, hey, man, that's great.

But what got them to 21, 20 years old wasn't because they bred that's not the benchmark to old age i mean you you can i i guess longevity i've always had an issue with that because you can you can kind of like i don't know it's always like monitors you know people would be bragging about having monitors live for 15, 20 years, but they were keeping them at suboptimal temperatures. They weren't behaving like monitors. They were kind of being preserved at a lower temperature. They weren't very active. They were kind of sluggish.

They'd eat, and they'd live a long time, but were they really doing what, what a monitor should do? Well, isn't that kind of subjective? Don't you feel like now, now you're, now you're, now you're, now you're speaking for all monitors. I would, I would compare it to what a wild monitor does. A wild monitor doesn't just sit there, you know, when you, well, sure, but you have no idea, but, but it's also, you don't know, you don't know the, yeah. Okay. So, so if you, if you have longevity as your benchmark, uh, you know, I, I don't think that's the best benchmark for success versus if you're, if you're able to breed a monitor in captivity and support it to, to get eggs and to have them, you know, lay multiple clutches, even in a single

year, you're probably doing okay with your husbandry. You know, I think that's a reasonable benchmark to, to say I'm, I'm supporting these animals. Um, until you're not. Yeah. I mean, you can, you can be going, you can be go, okay. You can be going along just fine. And for whatever unknown reason, your animal just drops dead. But you've reproduced it several years in a row. And then one year you go to go breed it and it just dies. Well, maybe that's what they do in the wild. Maybe that's how they're supposed to work.

I mean, that's what chameleons do, right? They breed intensively for two or three years and then they die. Okay. But so, so is the benchmark for, for long-term or for success reproduction? If, you know, they breed a couple of times and then die in the wild too. Like I, I'm just, I'm trying their natural history. Then I would say definitely yes. Okay, so wait. If you produce four clutches of chameleons and then your female dies, that's probably what? So if their life trajectory follows the natural order of whatever the wild version of them is doing, that's a measure a, a, a measure of success, not reproductive reproduction or is that what you're saying? Well, yeah, it's not. I mean, millions of years of evolution that's,

that's brought them to this point. Isn't that the ultimate benchmark of success? Oh, I don't disagree with you, but what we're talking about is taking animals out of the wild, keeping them in our house, and then trying to figure out what the measure that makes you successful doing that is. And what you're saying is it's reproduction at first. And now you're saying, well, if you can keep it and it behaves and does just what it does in the wild, then that's what success is. Is it behaving like it does in the wild or then that's what success is. Is it behaving like it does in the wild or is it reproduction in captivity? Well, I mean, if you're modeling the reproductive successes of wild animals, then you're, you have a pretty good benchmark for success there. I would say if what a female chameleon does is lay 200 eggs and live two years in the wild. So you bring it into

captivity and you keep it alive for four years, but it never reproduces. Are you successful? Well, I mean, I, you know, to, to, to, to, to the point here, it's about the goal, right? If you're a breeder, yes i would say you know not being able to reproduce something that you have probably is you're gonna look at that as not being successful if you're just a keeper and you can just keep it alive and you're not trying to breed it like maybe if you breed it on accident you're're like, oh, wow, I'm so successful with this. But that's not your goal. That's not the point. I'm not talking about like a single animal.

I understand. Yeah, you keep it. Yeah, but this whole thing is very like, you know, you true to your form. It's very example specific, right? Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying is it depends on the species. It depends on the family. It depends on these things to say, this is a benchmark. So rather than to say that reproduction is a, is, is the benchmark for success. What you're saying is it depends. Is that what I'm getting? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I agree with that. I agree with that because I think there's a lot

more that goes into success because you can reproduce something and not do it long-term. I E if I just reproduce Tracy a twice and I never do it again, I would not consider myself successful with those animals. I had success, but I wasn't successful, right? Having success and being successful are different because having success is doing something once or twice. Being successful is being able to do it over and over and over again, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In science, we call that repeatability, right? So if you've got to figure it out and, and so that's, yeah, that's what I'm saying is you, your, your benchmark for success is that reproductive output. I'm not saying you can't have other benchmarks for success,

but in regards to, you know, keeping reptiles, that's probably the most common benchmark that's used. And I'll say that's probably a reasonable benchmark to have is if I can reproduce this successfully and do it. You know, I think, I think with reptiles, it's tough because I think with reptiles, it's tough because you know, they don't, they don't display a lot, not all reptiles display a lot of outward behaviors. So, you know, studying them the way we study mammal behavior is a little bit different. It's, it's hard because they hide disease, they hide, you know, pain, they hide, they. It's very tough to get a read on that than it is with mammals. So we look to things like reproduction as benchmarks. And I think, yes, you know, obviously, if something reproduces, that's a successful event.

Reproduction in any organism is a major primary accomplishment function. However, like you said, you're going with the idea that long-term breeding success is the measure. I think that is absolutely the very key phrase because if you don't say long-term, then, then it, yeah, absolutely. It's not a measure of success. And I would say that long-term anything successful, long-term keeping something alive, long-term study of, of its natural behaviors, uh, long-term, you knowterm cohabitation strategies. I don't know, pick, but long-term anything makes you successful, right? The more you can do it, the more longevity you have in being a virologist, being a reptile breeder, being a podcast host, the more it makes you successful, right? Yeah. So while I do agree with you that reproduction is one of the major benchmarks with reptiles

for a lot of the reasons I just mentioned, I don't necessarily think it's the only one. It just depends on what perspective you're coming from or what your goals are yeah i mean yeah i'd agree with that and i i uh i guess you know based on that initial comment of you know reproductive output is the biggest driving factor in nature to some extent, you know, if you're not reproducing your genes, you're failing in, in nature. Right. So sure. Um, you and I are proven males, you have offspring and, uh, you know, but I guess, um, having offspring, maybe not, maybe not all the, the measure of success. And there's plenty of people that are, thank you because I feel like you just treated me like a piece of meat right there.

Yeah. That was my favorite one. Uh, I think it was Owen when they were, I can't remember it, maybe Vin Russo or somebody was the guest and he's like, Oh, you're an unproven male. Oh, and that's kind of funny. But you know, we, we, uh, we put a lot of, um, emphasis on that and, you know, maybe it's misplaced in a lot of cases. And I think it's reptile breeders. It makes sense. I mean, yeah, you better be producing reptiles if you're a breeder, especially if you're a full-time reptile breeder but um so yeah that's an easy benchmark of success but i you know i i think about shingleback skinks a lot

you know when i was in australia i saw a lot of shinglebacks and a lot that had gotten hit by cars you know there there was one stretch of road where i counted i think like 30 or 50 within a kilometer, you know, maybe the success of, maybe the success of some reptiles is just staying off of the goddamn road. Yeah. Yeah. You're not very successful if you're squished, but I guess the, the point being is in, in, you know, keeping them in, in captivity. I mean, I mean, it's probably the worst investment project, if you want to use that ridiculous term. And reptile keeping is probably a shingleback because they cost so much and their reproductive output is so low. But in nature, I mean, there's no shortage of shingleback skinks in their, in their area. And I mean, evolutionary, they've, they've adopted, adapted to, to persist maybe for, you know, have a, have a longevity and they have high parental care and their babies come out fairly large. So they're less susceptible to predation. So,

you know, there's different things that put them in that category. And so, you know, in nature, their, their populations are really very healthy, but you don't see those healthy populations necessarily in, in herpetoculture. And so, you know, I, I, I like to see, um, what I see in, in nature happening in, you know, and, well, I mean, I think, I think humans, humans are the shingleback skinks. I mean, you're a proven male and you understand that, uh expensive and they don't, you know, you only reproduce and, and expensive. And, you know, it's, it's, it goes to how, you know, like we treat human children is like, there are pride, you know, because we don't make 50 kids at once. And it's, it's all kind of like, we love our,

our one kid that we made, uh, cause we, you we made because our reproductive strategy is to put all our eggs in one basket, which seems kind of crazy for a shingleback skink because humans are smart enough to be like, road bad, not cross the road. And we don't get run over by cars quite as easily. There's not 30 people dead on the side of the road, but there, there are plenty of people that get hit by cars, but yeah, it's a, well, that's, that's fair. Yeah. I, yeah, I would say staying out of the road is a, definitely a benchmark for success for any animal. some people some people will make you quote you know i see why they coined the phrase go play in traffic so you know well um i think we we've we've uh we've maybe covered some useful topics i hope uh hopefully this has been a helpful discussion and i don't know where this went. Yeah. I feel like it, uh, I don't know. Uh, I would say, you know, I, I would agree that, you know, if you're looking to be a reptile breeder,

if you're not producing reptiles, you're probably not successful, but there's, you know, different measures of success in regards to reproduction. But overall, I think if you're producing healthy, viable offspring, you know, in successive years over the long term, you're probably a successful breeder. So, or a successful reptile keeper in that regard. Well, and I, you know, I think, I think that's probably true. I think, you know, if you want to talk about reproduction as a, as a benchmark for success, if you know, the right lighting, the right heating, you, you know, you engage with its reproductive biology to figure out what you needed to do to do that. So there's all these other things that go into why an animal is able to reproduce. And I think I will just go back to Tracy because that's an easy one for me is I did a lot of things that just leveraged the likelihood of success. And oh, by the way, I had success.

So, you know, is that. Is there reproduction me necessarily a sign of of the the benchmark that everything is good? So far, I suppose, but I look at it more having pass-throughs so that they could move to and away from each other when they wanted to, and they had access to each other, you know, things like cycle feeding, things like not keeping them too warm, things like, you know, having two males in there so that, you know, they're, they're kind of being kind of goaded into, uh, opportunistic breeding where it's like, Oh yeah, I'm not going to let this male beat me to the punch. And, you know, things like

that. And none of those are, none of those singular things are in my opinion, what did it, but being able to bring all those ideas together and put them into a system and let it run, that's what helps make you successful. So I think like, like, it's a lot of the things you do around that, that leverage success, but ultimately, a successful breeding and live, live babies are the fruit of that success, right? So, so, so, so yes, in a sense, what you were saying is a hundred percent correct that successful breeding is a benchmark of, of success. And I think long-term is the key phrase there, but, but I, but I do want to just make the point that it's all those things you do

back behind that to support it, which are really what make you successful. Because if you did all that other stuff, shitty, you probably wouldn't, they probably wouldn't breed and they probably wouldn't live very long. Yeah. So reproduction is that benchmark, right? So it's, it's a benchmark. I think we agree to that. Sure. Go ahead, Justin. You win. All right. Well, always delightful to, uh, engage and fight about these topics. This has, uh, been fun. Um, anything, uh, going on that we need to get out there? I don't, I can't think of anything. It's kind of, things are slowing down with the season and getting cold and, and dark outside, but at least.

MPR has a holiday show coming up. Oh yeah. Yeah. That'll be fun. That's always a good time to listen to the holiday show. They get into their airing of grievances, their Festivus style show. They get into their airing of grievances, their Festivus style show. But yeah, I'm looking forward to that. That'll be fun. And they had their 10 year, was it?

Or 11 year, something like that. I mean, they had a, they're, they're, uh, what do you call that? Anniversary? I don't know. Eric and Owen's anniversary show, um, their host, their host diversity. Pretty amazing. I mean, I'm still, I'm still just in awe of how, how they've Eric and Owen have kept that show going. That's pretty impressive. So has, how long has Owen been married? Has he been married to Eric longer in NPR than he's been married to his wife? He's not married yet. He's still engaged.

He's not right. Okay. Okay. I wonder, I wonder if He's definitely in that long-term committed relationship with Eric. That'll be so interesting once he ties the knot and that starts to roll in his life. I wonder if Eric can take a back seat. Can you take a back seat? Questions I want answered. Oh, I'm sure he can. I'm just giving a hard time. But it will be interesting i mean the dynamics are always you know a different thing once you get married but um oh yeah

you get to figure you get to figure all kinds of stuff out once you get married oh yeah yeah that's uh he's got a fun adventure waiting for him here soon. He's already started. I'm sure he's got squirrels and tortoises in his home. Yeah, that he probably didn't foresee himself working with. And I doubt the adventure has even begun for him. Yeah, exactly. His squirrels and tortoises are just the tip of the iceberg. And no one doesn't listen, so he won't know. No, he doesn't.

Well, you know, some people are doers. Some people are doers. But, I mean, congratulations to those guys to do that so long. And just I'm looking forward to another 10 years. I think they're doing a bang-up job and got a lot of different good content and podcasts out there. They've built quite the empire. So, kudos, guys. bang up job and got a lot of, a lot of different good content podcasts out there. It's been, they've, they've built quite the empire. So kudos guys. Um, some other, uh, cool, cool shows out there. Um, I, I really enjoy the, the, uh, um, the Australian,

oh man, my brain is failing me here, but, uh, the Australian herpetological podcast. Exactly. That's the one that my brain couldn't come or come to the, to the name of, um, I should be a little bit better, better prepared. Yeah. The Australian herpetoculture podcast is another great show that I've been enjoying. Um, I need to get into the Kluber and Kluberoid show. Those guys are, are, uh, very bright guys. And I just, I guess I'm not that into Kluber right now. So I haven't really been, but I need to give that a listen. I've heard a lot of good things about it and, uh, good stuff, but listen to, listen to those, uh, NPR podcasts out there. Yeah. Check them out.

Anything else? No, I think your sad pitch hit your sleep, your sleepy late night. Sad pitch was quite enough. Yeah. No, I guess I'm going to sleep. They're all fantastic podcasts. They're all fantastic podcasts that people should be checking out if you're not. I excuse my host for his lackluster performance there, but they are all definitely worth checking out. And I was up till about 1, 1 1 30 working on the book last night so you know

yeah i hope i have a reasonable excuse i think if you get that goddamn book out people will forgive you okay let's let's make it happen then yeah i'll i'll shoot for that i guess i'll actually put it out there all right um are we do we have any other shows that we want to mention coming up or are we um are we set to talk about anything i think let's let them fall where they may for now okay all right we've got some good ones planned and hopefully they'll be they'll be up sooner than later and we'll get some going, but we've got a few irons in the fire, so to speak. But for now you get nothing.

If you, if you want to come, come on the show, you've got, you know, the fighting spirit, um, drop us a line or get in contact and come with a good idea and we'll try to

get you on. Um, but this has been another edition of reptile fight club. get in contact and come with a good idea and we'll try to get you on. But this has been another edition of Reptile Fight Club and we will see you next week. Justin and his benchmarks are out. so Thank you. Outro Music