Reptile Fight Club - Reptile Fight Club Clip Show 2, Electric Boogaloo.

Episode Date: November 19, 2021

In this episode, Justin and Chuck revisit some past topics.Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to the MGR Network We are here to show you the MGR Network The MGR Network is a All right, welcome to another edition of Reptile Fight Club. As always, it is Chuck Bowen. I'm good, man. How about you? I'm good. I'm good as well.

Yeah, how's your week going? Week's going good. Week's going good. Got my first pair of William Cy babies. Uh, so yep. Teeny, teeny, teeny, teeny, teeny, tiny geckos in the house now. Uh, so that's cool. So I should, you know, the, the, I have like a, I had like a total of 18 eggs, uh, that

have been laid and, you know, they just keep going. So, uh, six, 16 more eggs, uh, that have been laid and, you know, they just keep going. So, uh, six, 16 more eggs, uh, to hatch. I, um, kind of, yeah, I kind of got, um, you know, they're so small that, uh, like I had them in my incubator and I've just like, I probably just, my room's like eight, you know, 78 to 80 degrees. So I just took them out of the incubator and I put them like eight, you know, 78 to 80 degrees. So I just took them out of the incubator and I put them in there, you know, uh, in, into, um, like they're there. I bought like some Tupper, like they're, they're like cereal boxes. I got to flip up top. I, you know, I can put a nice layer of substrate in there and I cut holes in the top and put screen mesh on top.

And so, you know, makeshift, makeshift enclosures for, for these babies and, uh, they're secure. So, uh, I, I took all of the egg tubes and, and actually stuck them to the side, inside of the box. And now they're just sitting in, in the reptile room, incubating rather than in the incubator. Cause when I, um, when I found the William Cy babies, uh, one of them was still in the egg. The other one was out running around in the, in the, uh, I had like a, them in one of those, like Cambro, um, like the acrylics and, and I saw it running around the side and I'm like, oh crap, dude. So I got it and started running around my room and I had to put it into a typical ordeal, but I got it. I got them both in there. But now everything, all of the eggs are now in the starter enclosure.

That'll be cool. They'll hatch into those and it'll be nice and easy. Like I said, I just have to go through the pain of the first thing before I'm like, I need to do this now. Then I do it and then it's fine after that. Got that going. Cool. Yeah, that's, that's pretty much new. The, the new stuff going on. Uh, how about you? Oh, just a book, a book, fun book. Um, we got back some real, you know, some, uh, the genetic analysis from Warren. so that's pretty exciting and uh some uh big changes I guess in in a lot

of ways so yeah interesting so so big changes I wonder how people will feel at the end of that big feelings on big changes probably possibly potentially potentially yeah we'll see how see how people react to it but um i mean it just goes with the genetics so what do you do i know i know change is hard for people so um but it's hard for me i gotta go back and change a bunch of the chapters and move some stuff around yeah gotcha gotcha all right well there you go you heard it changed my thinking a little here so yeah well we're excited to get this thing out there it's still still a little bit off but i don't know it seems like every time we get new information it's gonna uh delay it a little bit but we're making good progress yeah nature of the beast though right

i mean kind of yeah what you're gonna do what, what you're going to do. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I've been focusing on that pretty hardcore, you know, trying to get everything, uh, settled in and wrapped up and, and get the figure layouts going. So we were, we're getting, we're getting very close. So I don't know, I'd hope to have it for Christmas and that's not going to happen, but happen but um it won't be printed by then for sure but yeah hopefully we'll have it wrapped up by then and you know with time off of work for the holidays that that'll help a little as well so yeah otherwise uh let's see i i got a rare bird sighting that was kind of cool um one just up the road from the university that was an East Coast bird and it somehow made its way out to Utah and was hanging around in the same spot. And so I went out to try to see it during a conference call.

I was just walking along this trail during the conference call and then the conference call ended and we were at the spot and it flew in for about two minutes and then flew away. So got some decent shots of it. It's a black throated blue warbler for anybody interested probably we're to the warbler dude yeah that was a good looking bird so you're like 245 that made my 240 245 245 there you go go. What's Heidi at now? She's still, she's still. We need to get her over 200. Yeah. Yeah.

I was going to say, she's not even put, she's still putting up rookie numbers. Yeah. Don't tell her I said that. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Yeah. It didn't hurt that I went on a couple of herb trips down to Texas. Of course.

Of course. Got a lot of good species down there. So I pulled ahead of her a bit. You are the ornitholod... I can't even say it. You're a capitalist. You're capitalizing on your... Another reptile guy, I guess.

Yes, whatever. Yes. Can't say. So, yeah, it should finish out of the year pretty strong compared to my dad and my cousins. Oh, wow. So you put everybody you've, you've, you've basically, you've whooped me, uh, seven ways from Sunday on these coin tosses. You've beaten your father, your wife, all your friends with your, your bird count. Like, look at you winning. Just, I mean,

I think it's, I think it's just part of the disease. You know, I get, you get into herping and you want to see everything you can see. And you just keep going into the wee hours of the morning. And same kind of thing with birding, I guess. I just extended out to that. And I'm going on trips looking for birds now during the cooler months when I'm not allowed to go into Australia. See what Australia closing its borders has done to me. It's forcing me

to be a birder what what is going on here clearly this is all australia's fault exactly i i completely blame you you are definitely you are definitely sick with the disease so yeah but um i don't know i i don't know how intensively next year is going to be. I think I can be happy with my my account and then just try to add species here and there. I'm not going to go all out again next year. I don't think I'll just get in some trips. go over there are you are you continuing your count or do you have to start your account is your counter running count or is it a continentally significant count like you know i mean um all the apps i have are just us birds so okay okay okay i was just i was just kind of yeah i was i was i you know i was like um there was there was a high school football team that they ran the score up like 100 and something to zero. And they took all this. So I'm just wondering if you're that high school football team where you're like, I'm going to a different country.

And I'm running the score up. I'm taking this as far as I can. Yeah. I will admit I'm a bit of a competitive guy. But I don't think I'm running the score up 100 to zero. You didn't get that, did you? all the gloating after the coin tosses yeah no that yeah that was being facetious no i fully caught all of your of your of your elitism over coin tosses sir yeah yeah i mean it's and i guess you know when you when you it, it's the same thing, you know, bird, like there were,

there were a bunch of birders up there looking for that rare bird. I saw probably 10, 10 different birders. Were you like, I saw it first. No, no. And actually there were two other birders right there. And I just happened to walk up right when it flew over. So it was kind of perfectly timed and so you were like oh good thing i showed up so you guys got to see that huh i didn't say any of that because i'm kidding but i i will say i mean you know there were three of us that saw and then a couple others had seen it previously and they were the ones that

alerted uh so that so you knew you kind of knew this thing was over there yeah okay okay you kind of implied that and then i was kind of like did he walk that way and just happen to see it or like was there some forewarning to the okay i got you it's a little different with birding because they they don't have to like protect their spots because you know you can't collect birds you know it's a little more i mean obviously there are some examples of like climbing up trees and collecting parrot eggs and stuff but yeah you're not you're not netting a rare bird sighting in utah i was gonna say the hobby the birding hobby would be very different if if a guy just pulled out a shotgun and just like boom and

shot it out of the sky and That's number two 63 for me. Exactly. So, you know, it's there, they're happy to share court. I mean, they shared GPS coordinates. Here's where I saw it, you know? And so people were hanging out there looking for it, but I mean, it's just being in the right, it's like herping, you know, just being in the right place at the right time.

Obviously if you have good Intel and kind of know where things are then it helps and and reptiles kind of you know they don't move as much as birds and they don't have as wide of a i guess home range or or they don't migrate as as frequently or whatever at all i don't i guess sea turtles migrate or yeah but you know so it's harder to it's harder for you know it's hard for a birder to run up there and grab the bird and take it home whereas reptile people you know they protect their spot because they don't want those those filthy rotten pilfers yeah so that's i i think that's you know the difference so they're they're a lot more uh willing to share information rightly so i mean herpers should be a little tight lipped with their spots.

So they don't agree with that. For sure. That's the worst thing going through prime habitat and seeing it just destroyed like rocks flipped and not put back and things like that just drives me mad. So for sure. Yeah. Anyway,

enough about the feathered reptiles. Let's so we got a clip show for you today. Yep. So we're going to be kind of revisiting some of the topics and sharing other ideas that we may have had in the interim from the last or sorry, from the second 10 shows. So we're doing shows 11 through 20. Yeah. If you're keeping score at home. Yeah.

If you're keeping score. I know Justin keeps score. So that's why. That competitive nature. It's yeah bear all right so first off is uh monoculture yeah any updated thoughts on that um no i mean i i don't i i think i think we did cover pretty well the, you know, the, the monoculture subject. I do, I'm going to be honest and say, I feel like you, you really glossed over the potential pitfalls of monoculture.

I think you were a pro monoculturist in this, not that you necessarily feel that way, but you argued, argued very staunchly for monoculturist in this, not that you necessarily feel that way, but you argued, argued very staunchly for monoculture. And I think in that episode, I said that, you know, as a, um, you know, as an environmentalist and, uh, you know, uh, as somebody who has seen, um, how monocultures played out in, in other kinds of ways, ways um that aren't reptile related that that you know there's a lot of potential pitfalls with with monoculture and i still stick by that and i felt like in in that discussion you you you know you definitely highlighted the pros of monoculture which you know undeniably that's doing a job man just do my job hey listen listen me too

yep yep but yeah i you know i agree there there's definitely some downsides and upsides i i mean i i think um listening to people talking about you know getting into beginning species like you know the ball pythons or the crested geckos or whatever, there's a lot of information and support and things like that. You know, it's kind of in my line of work with virology, you know, we model a lot of viral diseases in, in mice and mice are a very handy model to have because there's a lot of resources for mice, you know, for mouse models and things versus like, we also maybe use some different species that are not as readily, you know, or, or commonly used. And so the reagents aren't there and the assays aren't there. And so, you know, similar, similarly, when you have

something that everybody keeps, there's a lot more information available. There's a lot more. But I think along with that, you might get more misinformation or some of these anecdotal evidence based keeping approaches or, you know, you get the folks that put hats on snakes, you know, for the, with the good comes the bad sometimes, but overall, I think, you know, if, if you're a beginner or first time keeper, a lot of it makes a lot of sense, you know, where there's a lot of information and, and usually with commonly kept species, you don't have the, you know, the, the exclusivity or the attitudes of like, oh, this is a difficult to keep species. Only folks like me are, you know, welcome here. And, and they're not a difficult to keep species. Only folks like me are welcome here. And they're not as welcoming to new keepers because they think they shouldn't be keeping them. Well, but I mean, I think we definitely talked about how the ball python market is stratified.

I think that was another show that we'll'll cover but you know they they talked about how stratified the ball python market is and that's even a monoculture stacked on top of each other right so there's even levels to monoculture and yeah i'm not saying that doesn't exist but you know i mean i just think i just think that when you mono like like like if you take examples of successful monocultures look at how they're almost stratified. You know what I mean? Like you, you could say that leopard geckos and morphs now are almost like, you know, starting to mirror how ball pythons work and, and in ball pythons, there's like a whole like tiered echelon of who's freaking cool because of how they, you know, keep ball pythons. And so, you know, from the normal ball python all the way out to the monocultured morphs, you know, it's become its own stratified thing. And how, you know, maybe there's some good for that, but maybe that's not good. You know, I mean, I just I think that there's, you know, some some some potential pitfalls with, you know, how monocultures are done. But also maybe socially there's there's some pitfalls to monoculture.

And and, you know, I think I think back to the super show and like what that looked like, you know, it was a lot of, it was interesting kind of not been a big thing, all of a sudden making a resurgence because, you know, people hadn't kept them as much or, or, and now all people who were, you know, primarily ball Python people, now they have like tons of colubrids on their table and it's like, Whoa, that's, that's crazy. Uh, so almost kind of like the, you know, we had talked about, you know, like trends, following trends in monoculture and how they disappear and come back and, you know, how, what's driving those. that example especially the super show is very much like okay it's the trend that drives the monoculture right like because you can monoculture a lot you know there's certain things that fit into a monoculture and as long as those trends that they research they they wax and they wane and and you see them you know wax and wane and and now you can kind of see those colubrids as like the the the the wax in it right now uh whereas maybe um you know ball pythons might be waning it right now i don't know

well and i you know i think that's the the key there is that you know there's always something new and cutting edge with ball pythons just because there's so many different morphs and so many combinations you can make and i think most people want something um novel or unique and so that's why morphs are popular and that's why ball pythons are largely popular although you don't really see i you do see some diversity with like crested geckos and things like that but for the most part you know i think people just want something flashy. That's why Ben Moral's in it, right? I'm sorry. You did the Ben Moral argument there.

I'm hurt because you always find the exception. I'm trying to make a point, and you can always find Ben being the exception. No, I know. It's good. I get it. I'm trying to sneakily teach people know it's good. I get it. I'm just, I'm trying to, I'm trying to sneakily teach people how to fight you. I gotcha. Yeah. So, but you know, I, there, there's definitely some, some downsides and I do think people typically try to branch out,

especially, you know, when they've, and, and I gotta say, you know, I imagine monoculture gets sort of boring for people and, and, you know, most herpers kind of want the new, new next new thing or, and I think you can satisfy that in a lot of ways. You know, you can go out herping and find new species that kind of satisfies that, or you can get a new work with a new species and breed a new species. And you see a lot of people that will produce a new species and then they kind of get rid of it and be like, okay, I did that, been there, done that. And then they move on to the next new species. And if you're, if you're keeping, you know, something that everybody else keeps, you know, it's not that novel or exciting, but, but if you've got some aspect of it, like a morph or,

or some kind of thing that keeps it exciting, then it kind of maintains that a little longer. Um, always make it better. No, I, yeah. Anyway, I'm, I'm kind of over morphs. Yeah, I know. I mean, I definitely am too. Still dabble of course. Yeah. Well, like, no, I mean, I, I'm not going to get rid of all my projects just cause they're morphs, but you know, I mean, I'm not looking to get new ones. Let's just put it that way. I, um, you know, see some of those ball pythons that Justin, so Sibelius Sibelius, I don't know how to use pronounce his last name, but he, that he posts up and they're super nice. I mean like, wow.

Kabilka. Kabilka. Yes. Thank you. Kabilka. I just want to watch you struggle a little bit. Yeah. Asshole. I, I, I do like the idea of having, I, and you know, I kind of keep this my collection that way where I think diversity, you know, having a wide range of species at a show is, is helpful. You know, you can get people excited about things they've never

heard about. And that's most of the shows, at least locally that I do is educating people about Antaresia. And so, you know, that gets that, that, that's fun to bring to attention some things that people really haven't seen. And, and the more, you know, the more shows I do around here, the more people get educated. And so so then then they're coming to the shows like oh yeah i remember i see i saw that last year i remember that or pretty soon pretty soon you'll have to find something else to be into because you'll have gotten everybody into anteresia well i don't think that's going to be the case but i don't know sometimes we got a long way to go i mean it's okay to yeah to be niche and you're just one man in a whole state trying to i mean gosh exactly well okay i think uh any other thoughts on

monoculture versus uh diversity in a collection um no i mean you know i i just i still think that I like diversity. Yeah, agreed. And like you said, I think it gets kind of boring where you're just kind of like, all right, I've seen that. I know that. And you see something cool that comes out and you're like, all right, that's cool. But, and, and, and, you know, I, I like keeping, keeping it going, learning new things, getting into new stuff and, you know, the well so deep that, uh, you know, you could just go and go and go with that. So I don't know if I had a side, that's my side. Yeah. Agreed. All right. Let's, uh, keep it moving here. Let's go with a number 11, the invisible arc. We got a lot of good feedback about this show a lot of people enjoyed the show and i and i personally i enjoyed a lot

uh too uh it was fun to have um the guys on to debate that um yeah so this was probably and i mean i we've done some good shows um you know i know the the hyper episode, everybody loved that. But I think this is probably my favorite episode that we've done so far. You know, I just I think that both of those guys were amazing guests and they really just they came they came ready and and really just hit hit the crux of the issue so well. And it's really a deep topic, one that we need to wrestle with and one that there's no good answer for. And it encompasses a lot of the issue that we face in society today. So it definitely applies to reptiles, but it also applies way, way past reptiles. So it's just a really great show. Yeah, yeah.

I think the hardest pill to swallow was the idea that we don't really, we can't really make a difference to some extent, you know, unless there's wild habitat for these things to go back to. I mean, it's, I do kind of side with the idea that if it's in your living room or whatever, it's not extinct. And, you know, that makes me feel better. But at the same time, what is it if it's just in your living room?

That's kind of a hard pill to swallow. And I think they handled the topic well. And I don't know. Well, and I think to Casey's point, and I think kind of why some of this, like at some level, I totally understand it. At other levels, I'm just kind of like, it's a little stupid. But, you know, like you talk about biodiversity and how, you know, if they were to try to take some of these captive bred animals that we produce, that they're just not viable because they're too inbred or they're too this or that. And at some point, like if things get so

messed up that you're just looking for a form to fill a niche in a, in a, in a habitat, does it really matter how biodiverse it is? Like, I mean, we're not talking, you know, in terms of genetic diversity, we're not talking about a white rhino where there's maybe, you know, less than less than a dozen of them and in the in the whole of the wild. And so genetic, you know, genetic bottlenecking for the white rhino is it's, you know, it's a, it's a wrap for them. Like it doesn't matter if we can continue to reproduce them. They're so, they're so genetically bottlenecked that they're, that, you know, they're going to die off. It's, it's, you know, a matter of, it's just a matter of time. Whereas, you know, maybe the gene pool and our captive populations isn't so deep, but it's something better than nothing.

And like you said, if there's no habitat, then who, you know, what are we really doing anyway? Like it doesn't, you know, it doesn't really matter. And I, I wrestle with conservation a lot because of this, because it's kind of like, you know, and, and, and, you know, I think Bill, I think it was Bill who was kind of like, Hey, listen, conservation is a tool to make people care to give money. You know, it's a guilt, it's a guilt trip to make people give money. And, and, and look, I mean, I, I, when I say it's a guilt trip, it's way bigger than just that. But what we're doing is we're pushing what we do is to make problems to help create money so that people can do conservation. Now, if we're not doing habitat restoration and we're not doing habitat preservation, is conservation even really worth it?

Are we just funding zoos so that they can feed animals? It's kind of, you know, that's kind of the case. So I don't know. It's just there's a lot of, you know, I got a lot of negative feelings, conservation. And so it's hard not to get, you know, to get, uh, you know, depressed about this, I guess, you know, for lack of a better term. Um, but you know, we do what we can and we fight, we educate and we help people understand why these things need protecting. And, and I think things in general are moving more towards that direction. I mean, if you compare things maybe 50 years ago in regards to reptile knowledge in the general public, I think kids are a lot, you know, they, they're excited about reptiles. They're generally not afraid of reptiles. You might have one out of 10 or, you know, things like that. But for the most part, they're, they're much better educated than, than their parents and grandparents were.

So I think things are moving in the right direction as far as people caring about the environment. And, you know, a lot of, I just, I watched, uh, the, uh, Attenborough special the other day, or just today, I think it was the, or this morning on, uh, you know, life talking about his life and the changes that have occurred during his lifetime and it is really kind of sad to see the only 35 30 percent of remaining nature is is uh present anymore and so that's that's a little that's a little sobering and you know it's hard to tell other countries not to develop their country like we developed ours or like you know the europeans developed their countries back in the day it like we developed ours or like you know the europeans

developed their countries back in the day it's it's their time to kind of industrialize or whatever but it's just you know we kind of see where we're headed down that path um i also watched the movie um the boy who harnessed the wind it with my daughter. It's about a kid from Malawi that, you know, just desperate times. There was no food. There was a, you know, their land flooded and then they had a drought right after that. So the crops weren't growing and things were, you know, very dire. And he found a way to, you know, make a windmill to power a pump to bring up water so they could water their fields and have a second growing season. Great show, really fantastic. And I,

you know, there, there definitely needs to be some innovations involved with this, but I mean, you just see also the, you know, the rate at which forests are being cut down and, and things like that. And, but I think historically they say, you know, the, the Amazon rainforest is the result of people planting trees, you know, a long time ago. And so, you know, simple efforts, there was a guy in India. I think that's, I think that's a gross, gross, gross, gross oversimplification of how a rainforest showed up. People can make a difference if they put their minds to it. Plant, you know, that's a very human, that's a, it's a very human centric, uh, thought of, of, of, um,

you know, the, the plus of us being the minus. Well, I'm just saying, why not be the plus in the face of being the minus? Well, I think at this point, we kind of have to be, right? I mean, obviously- People can go on without doing that, but I'm just saying, if they have the opportunity to plant a tree in their yard or plant it, you know, think about something local, think about something native, think about something that kind of restores things to, to maybe what it was, maybe not have a lawn, maybe have a small forest in your backyard that can

entice local species or whatnot, kind of do your part where you are. And I do agree with that. But I think that the inequity that we see, I mean, I think that you have somebody like Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos who are concentrating the amount of wealth. And if you can take wealth as a form of resource capital, here is the concentration of resource capital. Meanwhile, people in areas where there may be pristine rainforest or, or, you know, they're destroying that so that they can live. And, and, you know, until we, and nobody likes the idea of like, well, if I made all these millions, now I'm not going to give them to somebody else just so that they can eat.

That right there is part of the issue. And I've heard that the earth can support as many as 10 billion people. It's just the inequality in resources that kind of drives the wars and starvation and things like that. I mean, and you know, the, with the changes in the earth and the unpredictability of, of nature and storms and you know, the changing and warming climate, it's, you know, there's some desperate times ahead and we need to work as a global community. So.

And you see, and you see some of these bitch ass people who would take their millions and say, no, you know what all they need to do is is just watch that watch that one kid who harnessed the wind and pulled himself up by his bootstraps and that's bullshit man that that you know that that people need to you know do do do their part if if you have the you know if you have the potential to you know save a million people by you know giving up a small fraction of of your ridiculous fortune like it's hard to like i mean the the the man in the film the boy in the film, his father kind of was, um, trying to band everybody

from their village together to not sell off their trees to, uh, you know, this, this group that wanted to buy up their, their lumber. And so, you know, and he was trying to encourage his, his fellow people to not sell off their land because he'd seen what had happened in, you know, different countries when they cut down the forest, then they get flooding in their, in their cult, you know, their crops and stuff. And that's exactly what happened. Everybody was desperate, sold their trees. The people came in and cut them down and then his field got flooded. You know, if they would have maybe banded together they might have had a an okay growing season and maybe been able to persist but you know it's it's a very complicated thing i mean that's you know we're just scratching the surface with this stuff and but you know a great

great uh discussion between bill and casey it was really great to have one of my one one of my favorites i think both of those guys are extremely well thought out and uh just was a good was a good episode yeah we'll have to have those guys back on some 100 yeah um all right on the feeding schedules yeah that one was maybe you know i think that one's kind of a hot topic in a lot of circles. And people think that's their way to interact with their snakes is to feed them. And so it results in a lot of obese snakes because especially like pythons don't need to eat that frequently to maintain normal function. And so if you're, oh, my green tree python always looks hungry. I better feed him. You're going to wind up with a, an overweight, you know, snake that gets some kind of prolapse

or something down the road. So, you know, you need to consider the health of the animal, consider the, you know, why you're feeding them and, and, and learn about their natural history. If, if nothing else, you know, comes from this show, I want people to think about what these snakes are doing in the wild, what these reptiles, what these animals are doing in the wild and how we can, you know, replicate the important factors of their, their lives to, you know, do the best we can with them and keep them as, as well as we can. I, I, yeah, I think on this episode, you forced me to take the feeding on a schedule side, which I had to defend, which, you know, I think, I think it's probably more of a feeding on condition. You know, how does the animal, how does the body condition of the animal look? How,

you know, what, what time of year it is? Are you breeding this thing? Like there's all these other factors that, that go into, you know, how often, you know, how big is their cage? Are they getting a lot of exercise? Are they, you know, are they, you know, roaming free like all the time that, that, that, that would influence how often and how much I would feed. So I think it's just kind of a shift, you know, from, from the idea of a calendar based type of approach to more of a, you know, a condition based or, or a, uh, um, you know, body type, uh, uh, you know, body type approach. Yeah. I think that would be fine with a small collection, but if you've got a larger collection, I don't,

I think you missed a great opportunity to just, you know, death blow me there and say, well, what, everything's on a schedule. I mean, in the wild wild they're on a schedule you know like sometimes it's it's more frequent and other times it's nothing at all i don't think i i don't think i missed missed that opportunity maybe i didn't poignantly point it out but i you didn't deliver the death blow i definitely didn't i you know knockout punch yeah well i don't you know no it's No, I can't even – You want to bruise your ego.

Well, that's hard to do. Well, it's so big. It's so big. Yeah. It absorbs everything. No. Yeah, and I mean I think that was kind of – we did talk about there being a schedule. Even in cyclical, like almost seasonal feeding, there's type of a schedule to that.

So I think everything works on a schedule. But at the same time, even on that schedule, you need to make observational deductions about how much you need to feed or what type of food source you're feeding, what kind of a prey source you're feeding on that schedule. I just don't think there's – there's still other factors that are above and beyond just the schedule of, of, of, yeah. And, you know, I guess the, the main idea is like, you know, if you feel like you have to feed your snake once a week, every week, you know, you're probably not doing it right. Yeah, no, that's, that's for sure. Yeah. Lizards are a whole different idea, whole different aspect of it. You know, sometimes you need to feed them several times a day. So natural history. And I think it's a completely moving target because if you're talking about, you know, juvenile or, or baby animals, maybe feeding

weekly is great. But if you're talking about adults, you know, the, the, their, their need to, you know, maintain their, their, you know, their condition decreases as they become adults. Um, you know, metabolism. So, you know, you, you have to just take the right, you have to take it in the right context. Yeah, for sure. And, you know, when we talk about natural history, I'm talking about what these animals are doing in the wild, what their natural feeding regimens or schedules might be, you know, if they're in the wet season and there's an abundance of prey that's kind of when they eat a lot and other times of the year they might not eat anything and i think even still there you you and this kind of goes to the

why i have this animals are placid in that that they are able to adapt is because you have some, pick a species, you have a said species in one area that has an abundant prey source, and that's how they live. And then you have the same species in another area that may not have an abundant prey source. And the way they live year to year and the amount of reproduction they have and, you know, how they, how they live out their life is different. Right. But it's still the same species, but it's, it's, it's a different prey availability, or maybe there's just, you know, different, other different factors that, that go into it. So I think that, you know, it's, it's finding, finding when it's harmful, you know, when overfeeding is harmful or when underfeeding might be dangerous or, you know, not, not the best thing.

So, and I think, you know, in a captive setting, a lot of that gets, uh, you know, a lot of the, the variation that you would see in the wild is kind of, kind of, uh, optimized. And so, you know, we all, we can start talking apples and apples, whereas maybe some, sometimes looking in the wild, maybe we're talking apples and oranges. Yeah. Yep. And not all, all of the same. And that's why it requires some, you know, some education, learn about the animals you're keeping, what they do, what they do naturally, you know, and that kind of will help. And sometimes that you need to dig a little, you know, that information may not be readily forthcoming and you kind of have to infer from, from different resources. Um, I, I read some

papers on, um, rodent, uh, you know, or not necessarily rodent, but there are some marsupials, but small animal, um, cycles in Northern Australia to kind of figure out when prey availability is there for the green tree pythons up there. And, and it's pretty sparse feeding for those guys. And then a lot of animals have adapted, you know, I mean, pythons especially have adapted to survive and, and even thrive on very little input. And so I think, and I mean, isn't that such an interesting, like you, you do that research and you're like, oh, that's why they're hungry all the time, you know? And then they just have to not miss an opportunity. Yeah. And then you make a connection where it's like, oh, I shouldn't feed them all

the time because they're always hungry because they never get to eat in the wild. Oh, that totally makes sense. Right. And maybe it's not necessarily hunger. You know, maybe that's an anthropomorphism, but maybe it's just, you know, looking for that opportunity, you know, being ready for the opportunity because it doesn't come along very often. It's not hunger. It's capitalism. All right. Let's move to, you know know people coming into the hobby via social media yeah that was an you know interesting topic something interesting to think about but a lot of people come in through you know influencers pet tubers things like that i mean i

think you know i i think i think so much of what we do today is through social media or through, you know, the internet connectivity. So, you know, I, I, I, I know I was the get off my lawn guy and, you know, we've had some great interviews. I think the interview we did with summer when she was talking about advertising and you know it really got me kind of not not that i don't think but sometimes i don't think but you know it got me thinking more just about like hey you know like you always you know when you were young coming up and you know the old the older generation was just ah these kids these days you know like this and and and changed you know yeah i mean and and so things will always change and and social media and and you know our connectivity is the new way we communicate

in the new way and so that's how people are going to come in so So, and you know, I, I, you can always look to, um, influencers and all these, these, these negative aspects of it, but at the same time, like, you know, we wouldn't have, you know, we wouldn't have, we wouldn't have the robustness of the hobby that we have today without social media. Right. Like, I mean, so you just can't deny the power of it. And, and, um, yeah, sure. You can always use it. You can always point to it as like, ah, see that bad example or see that bad example. Um, but that's not, you know, like anything, you know, you, you gotta take the good with the bad. And I think overarchingly it's, it's, it's been a good thing. Yeah. As long as, as long as they're watching, um, you know, reliable sources that are not just, you know, trying to get, I don't know, there, there's a lot of negative aspects of it as

well. And I think we, we covered it fairly well, but you know, there's, there's a lot of things to be, be careful of, but for the most part, I think people coming in and, and, and a lot of the bigger reptile folks online, you know, some might be a little over the top. And I think a lot of them have kind of a negative feel with a lot of the herpetoculture especially the people who have been around for a while or, or who have been doing this for a while they kind of look at them in a negative light um so you know i think the the important thing is to work together

to make sure people coming in are well educated and and that they're doing their best to keep their animals happy you know that's kind of the the the goal that we have in common. And I think that the new generation is, is a little less, I guess, judgmental in that way. And they're a little more open to help. I would hope that's the case. So, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I do think in, you know, I mean, you know, you can look at the downside of, of people in social media, like you can look at the downside of people in social media like you can look at the downside of people, period. And, you know, there's the, the idea that there is a lot of positive things that, that can be garnered through, you know, marketing and social media and, and, um, that kind of, uh, you know, but it's all how, you know, it's all how you do

it and how you think about it. And I never really thought about the, uh, what was that? The reptiles at home podcast and, and how, you know the potential that, that, that, that might not be a good thing because you're always looking at like adding to it and, and you're, you're maybe you're not appreciating, you know, I think that was what, what was being said was, was it basically like you're, you know, the, the message that, that, that you could walk away with from that, that is a net negative. And I'm like, wow, I didn't think about it like that. So, you know, I think like anything, you have those influencers who aren't thinking about the message.

They're just trying to get, you know, people to pay attention to them. Like, you know, everybody who's posting booty pics on Instagram, they don't care. They just want attention, right? It's like, yes. You want the likes. Yeah, exactly. And so I think it's people on social media doing it wrong, people on social media being articulate and thinking about it and doing it right. And I think that that's just – you had that before social media, it was just in a different way, but now that we're in the digital

age, that's what we see. So, you know, um, well, and I think we're preaching to the choir because I think any, our, our, our listener will definitely, uh, align with that. I mean, they're obviously interested in, in seeing, you know, both sides of the topic and learning more about different topics and thinking about things. And that, you know, obviously our listeners are much more, you know, bright than most podcast listeners. Me and you. Than we are. They're like, shut up, Chuck. We get it.

Let's move on. Let's move on. But, you know, they're definitely thinking and trying to do better, trying to learn more. And that's, you know, the main thing, I think. Yep. Agreed, agreed, agreed. Okay. Wholesaling.

Wholesaling. Wholesaling. Yeah, don't have a lot. Yeah, I feel like we kind of covered a lot of that. Um, it's, it's a necessary thing, you know, for a lot of, you know, maybe, um, small, smaller breeders or breeders that don't go to a lot of shows or things like that. And I, I think one of the take homes, at least that I've kind of been thinking is, you know, I, there's, there's a big push in herp to culture that you, if you don't breed, you're not really worth anything. You know, if you don't breed, you're not really worth anything. You know,

if you don't breed your animals, you're not a real keeper. And I think that's a, that's a misconception that needs to kind of go away. I think people can get just as much out of their, their animals if, if they're not breeding them, you know, maybe there's a, there's a point to be made about, you know, the, the drive to pass on their genes or something that is fulfilling for an animal, but, you know, overproduction of, of animals usually leads to, um, bad things. You know, if you're trying to sell off a lot of animals cheaply, you know, uh, is that the best, are they going to have the best best time in life and have the best life down the road in captivity? So, you know, those those are things to think about.

So, wait, are you are you making an omission that perhaps wholesaling might not be might lead to overproduction? Because I feel like you you resisted. You resisted. Well, I just want to know. Yeah. If you're if're, if you know, I guess I'm just messing with you. I'm just, I know I, I, I, you know, I, I have to take responsible responsibility for what I'm saying, but I, you know, I think there is something to that. If you're, if you're a small scale or scale breeder and you're having to wholesale things, maybe you're producing too many things and maybe you don't have to breed everything you have every year. Or, or, and, and, you know, this, this kind of goes, this kind of goes back to the monoculture

thing. If that's, if, if you want to breed, then focus, keep less animals, focus on something that's significant. Or just breed certain projects, you know. Yeah, right. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So it's not, you know, there, there is no, you know, unless you're making your living doing this and you have a way to sell animals and you can try to make your living at this, not be able to sell your animals and still be unsuccessful. You see what I'm saying? Like, like you have to, you know, if you're going to breed, you have to be able to sell those animals. And if, if you end up, you know, with a pile of animals, you can't sell them. I mean, what are you doing? What are you doing? Yeah. That's a, it's a tricky balance. And I think, I think it's, it's almost like a pyramid scheme. If you start buying, you know, certain reptiles, it's almost like inferred that you will breed them, you know, Oh, if you buy this and you breed it, you can make your money back and you can do this and that and the other. And it's, it's a, it's largely just that, you know,

kind of a pyramid scheme and you really, I mean, in some ways. But I do just got to say, man, that, that, you know, hatching out blue day geckos was a hell of a feeling oh yeah you know and it's it's it's it's a heck of a drug you know what i mean reproducing reproducing uh reptiles is a hell of a drug and oh yeah you know yeah i get no i don't fault i don't fault people for for being i'm not saying that you shouldn't breed anything i guess i'm saying i understand if you're gonna breed something do it responsibly do it with thought do it with

foresight do it you know a hundred percent make sure you have an idea of how to sell those animals you know because it's not always that easy and i think a lot of times it's kind of passed on as something easy because they're trying to sell you something, you know, that's always the, anytime somebody is trying to sell you something, they're going to say whatever you want to hear to justify you buying that. Well, or, or, I mean, shout out to somebody like Frank Payne who, you know, plug, uh, we'll be on our next episode. Um, so, you know, tune in for that. Cause that's going to be an awesome show. I'm super excited about that show. But, you know, a guy like Frank Payne, he's not he's not trying

to sell his animals. He is literally getting people interested in his animals by just, you know, teaching people about them and showing them. And, you know, it's, you know, talking about them like they're living art and people are like, oh, my gosh, that's awesome. And people end up into that, you know. So I do that. I do think there's a distinction there. But and he's also focused on things that maybe aren't, you know, broadly kept or bred. And so I think, you know, absolutely.

Definitely. Once they get into things, even if they get in through kind of a monoculture or through social media for a popular type reptile, a lot of times they'll branch out and learn about other things, you know? That's, that's kind of how the natural progression, you know, as you learn more about reptiles, you, you kind of find the nipper you really enjoy. And, and you move forward with that. So I guess people could make a drinking game out of this every time they hear it. They should. That would be so good. Anyway.

So that's something for Eric and Owen for the holiday show. I know those guys. I think Eric had already said he is going to get very drunk off of some nipper. So there you go. That's how it happens. Yeah. All right. Well, you know, if you're going to breed reptiles, do it responsible, do it with foresight. That's right. Yeah. That's right. Um, stud books. So I, I was, uh, alerted to the fact that there are quite a few, or, uh, you know, I don't know how many, but there's,

there's some stud books in private keeper hands and they're responsible for those and they're being done successfully. So I think that was- Like what? Give me some- alerted me to that. Oh, Steve. Some of the turtle and tortoise stud books are held by not forfor-profit entities, but not like a zoo, like a private, like the Turtle

Survival Alliance or one of those kind of groups. And I can't remember the details. I should have written it down. That was kind of lame of me. But anyway, there are stud books in private hands that do well. I can't remember an example of which species are. Now we just have to have Steve on because you just can't get the job done and tell me about it. I don't want to know.

So that's a perfect. I love the excuse. Steve Collin or something. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, they are being used and they are being successfully used by private hobbyists or other organizations. So, you know, it's not beyond the realm of, of possibility in reality. If you have a strong, like, I mean, like somebody like

Frank Payne, he could probably start a stud book for William's eye or some of the other species that he keeps, you know? Um, and so, you know, definitely adds a little bit more hassle and foresight and thought. And, and like we said, some, some animals don't have a lot of background information because they have kind of a sketchy past, you know, maybe we're, we're smuggled into Europe or something. And so we don't really have locality data or good information on the animals. So, you know, that kind of makes it more difficult, but if you're going to do a stud book, you've got to have, you know, that kind of makes it more difficult, but if you're going to do a stud book, you've got to have, you know, some indication of genetic relatedness. And that's kind of the name of the game, trying to keep enough specimens that you can have genetic diversity within your

population. Well, and I kind of wonder, you know, take it back to the Ben Morrill, you know, is that something that, that we could, you know, if you get, and, and, you know, take it back to the Ben Morrill, you know, is that something that, that we could, you know, if you get, and, and, you know, like as somebody into Tracy, that's a niche community, a nipper community, sorry. And, and so, you know, like, are those nipper communities, those great places to start with stud books and, and know the kind of the idea that and and the science that ben's putting forth you know if we get it you know you start getting enough in there maybe maybe you can build a um you know and i don't know i'm speaking out of ignorance but maybe you can build kind of a a relate a you know a level of how related, you know, the people that the animals within those,

those nippers that you create the stud book around, you know, and, and, and kind of, you know, kind of using and gosh, even going back to social media is these Facebook groups that have these nipper communities in them that could use, you know, genetics to kind of figure out how, how related things are and, and how you could create a stud book based off of something like that. There's a model that, that a stud book could work off of. It's just, you know, getting people to get together and say, yeah, that's, I'm in, I'm doing that. And, and that's, you know, ultimately that's, what's always proved to be the hardest thing with the reptile community and probably humans at large is to get them all

going, going down the same, yeah. Drive down the same road. Stick to the same thing for, you know, 20 years or something to do it, do it well. Um, you know, I guess if you had a group, like you said, you know, like a Facebook group or something, you've got enough individuals that maybe, um, you know, you can kind of rotate the leadership or have kind of a more organized effort doing that. And that's, that could be very helpful too. So you don't just have one person trying to shoulder all the work and get burned out and just go, ah, this isn't worth it.

And just get rid of everything, you know, or stop doing it. And that, that's probably what happens a lot. But if you have kind of a rotating leadership model where you have somebody kind of a stud of directors, so to speak, rather than a board of directors, you have a stud of directors. I don't know. That was bad. I'm sorry. I apologize people. But it's, but it's, you know, definitely something to think about and consider, especially if you're working with

something that's maybe not commonly kept or, or some things that can, um, be imported. So you can have good, uh, locality information and to some extent and, and with the new tools um we definitely need to have ben on here and have something you know down that line to to have have a good fight club with him but um you know the new tools in in genetics or or just dna sequencing and things can help out potentially with that as well so you can have some kind of profile, you know, DNA profile. So that's the, uh, hopefully we, we, we definitely need to get Ben on here to tell us that we're either a bunch of idiots that don't know what we're talking about or, uh, that that's totally doable and people need to get it in gear. Yeah. All right. Well, uh, super show was fun. That's our next

show. And that was, that was a lot of fun a lot of interesting things it was cool to to get jules on there i've always liked uh interacting with him at the shows back in the past and then um super show this time around he's he's a funny entertaining guy um the always the characters that make it great snakes for the stars or what was he the yeah the the herper for the stars i can't remember it was pretty pretty entertaining but that was that was snake wrangler to the stars yeah there you go something like that that's that's probably what and it was fun hanging out with anson my brother-in-law's a cool guy yeah yeah he is a cool guy that was fun you know interesting you know like i i always say

that you know uh reptile shows are a great place to meet people and and those relationships and conversations that you have are always some of the funnest so yeah it's you know that was that continues to be the case i'm sure we will bring, the reptile fight club to more shows. And, uh, you know, it was interesting. Uh, I, I feel like, you know, some, some of it was, was, uh, you know, I, I wish we could have talked to a lot more people. I, it's kind of, I think it's kind of hard with the, with the podcast and, you know, being middle-aged men and trying to just get people to like, hey, we're doing a podcast. We fight. You're like, what? Weird. What? Get away from me. Yeah. So I wish that there was a little more ability to access people and get them to

give their fight opinion and stuff like that. I mean, I think we kind of scratched the surface a little bit on what that looked like, but we'd like to see that, that, uh, get a little more robust and maybe future, uh, reptile shows if we, if we continue this. So. Yeah. Yeah. That, that'd be a fun to have like a booth, have people stop by the booth. And so then we get a people who, uh uh know who we are and can kind of maybe that's maybe that's the secret maybe we need to um maybe we need to uh get get get a show set up and uh get a table set up and then do a two table thing where you know there's there's a table for the reptiles and then and then there's a fight club table. Yeah. But that was, that was a lot of fun to hear different, uh, um, ideas and how people, you know, think about the reptile hobby

and stuff like that. I, you know, as the, I guess I've been doing this for a while since, uh, what, I mean, since I was a kid, but, you know, shows and being more serious and, and breeding and things like that since 97, you know, as a, I guess having a business in a side business in this, uh, you are what we call in the Navy, a salty dog, salty dog. Um, but you know, I'm, there's, I just talked to a guy today who, who's, uh, in his seventies and, um, you know, he's been herping for, for quite a while, you know, and keeping reptiles before I was born. And so, you know, there's, there's definitely people who have been in this longer and, uh,

hats off to, you know, people who have some state, you know, stick to itiveness to, to do this their whole lives. You know, it's, it's a great hobby and there are, you know, there's a lot of things that are sometimes hard to, you know, kind of kick you out of the hobby or make you want to leave or whatnot. But, you know, for the most part, it's a it's a great thing. You know, hopefully we can kind of come together and remember where we came from. You know, some of that that new idea and you know man like i i i'm i'm friends with ed bradley and and it's always fun to listen to the the old-timer guys tell stories because you're like ah you are

frustrated about the same crap back then that we're frustrated about now like things don't really you know what i mean it's different times maybe different you know some different focus or different things going on but you know still still human Yeah. It's all kind of the same stuff, but I think we'd, we'd figure it out by now. Right. Everybody's got to learn it, learn it the hard way. But yeah, that was a lot of fun. I, you know, I appreciate you picking me up at the airport and driving me, you know, to the show and stuff. That was a lot of fun. That was a great idea.

So I'll have to make it happen again for sure all right well anything else to add on that topic or no let's move on move on moving on cycling snakes uh i thought that was a pretty good topic to it was a good topic i think i think uh you know i think i took the uh you don't need to cycle anything. It's all fine. Like, you know, but I definitely think that's probably not the case. I definitely think cycling is a thing. And you got to cue animals. And, you know, I think cooling snakes is a thing. And, you know, but it depends on, you know, watch out for generalizations, because there's a lot of species that probably don't need to cool. Yeah. They might have a wet, dry season or they might have a, you know, longer daylight, you know, photo period type cues. And there's a lot of things that can cycle snakes. So it's very difficult to have an, you know, no cycling. Yeah.

Well, and I think primarily people think of cycling. Yeah. Well, and I think, I think, I think primarily people think of cycling as temperature, but cycling doesn't necessarily have to mean temperature. I think there's a lot of cues that cyclists make, uh, or a reptile. Yeah, absolutely. So I think, I think cycling is a thing. I just think that we focus on the temperature side of it. Well, that's the easiest one in a lot of ways, you know, unless you live in a tropical area where the temperature doesn't fluctuate. I was just going to say equatorially, like those snakes probably don't temperature cycle very much. They experience a pretty constant, you know? Yeah.

I mean the temperature changes, but you're, you know, you're not looking at marketed seasons there. No. Yeah. Except for, you know, you're not looking at marketed seasons. No. Yeah. Except for, you know, rain, rainy season versus dry season. But that's, and like, there you go. That's cycling. So, but do they need that to reproduce? I, you know, I think the, some species might for sure need those. I mean, amphibians probably definitely need a rainy cycle or some kind of, you know, certain species probably need a rain cycle to stimulate their breeding activity. And, you know, maybe that wet period goes to an increased humidity, which is necessary for incubation or, you know, some of those kinds of things but but but but the idea that you need

you know a rainy period for an animal to do what it needs to do like i don't i don't think rain affects the biology of an animal to reproduce you know what i mean i think that that's a it's a cue i think that that's that's something that they use but but let's just say it goes through a drought or you get a grossly reduced period of precipitation throughout a season. Does that mean that everything stops reproducing? I mean, that just seems kind of silly, right? It doesn't make sense. So again, I think things have to be able to be placid in order to adapt to changes in their environment. And, and so, you know, I think like, like with the Tracy, I say that the long-term success, uh, for those is, is just,

you know, the steady, the steady race, uh, keeping things the same. And, and, uh, that's what, that's what, um, I think that's what most animals are looking towards is, is, Hey, how, how do I judge the future? Cause I don't want to make a mistake here. Um, yeah. So, so yeah, I, uh, um, sorry there. Uh, no, you're good. I think, um, identifying things that are important and things that aren't, I always come back to that. Um, Terry Phillip idea of, you know, shoveling's not necessary to get them to reproduce. But, you know, the cold temperatures might be more important than the snow dumping on them. Yeah, for sure. On their habitat. No, and there's definitely 100%, you know, significant things that need to be there. And, you know, I mean, I think there's certain conditions that need to be there um and you know i mean i think there's certain conditions that have to be met um but you know the idea that that that you have to do it in a stat in a hundred

percent static way all the time and it always has to be the same and there can't be any you know or if you miss this this critical if you don't put them together in november and drop the temperature 10 degrees until you know then you're not going to breed them yeah that kind of stuff is um i uh the uh idea of you know certain species having less cues needed to reproduce i think is important and and there might be some that are, you know, difficult to breed just because they're stressed out or they're, you know, they haven't adapted well to captivity or, you know, they've got the wrong condition. It's really kind of tricky sometimes to work things out. And I think a lot of times we take that for granted that some of these things

have been worked out and we, or, or just the fact that they're captive bred makes them, you know, easier reproducing captivity, um, versus a wild caught animal, but you know, hats off to the people who've, you know, the people who figured it out and hopefully, I think you see, I think you see animals that are generalists and animals that are specialists and, you know, like San Diego has, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's an ecological hotspot. It's, it's highly, um, you know, like San Diego has, you know, it's an ecological hotspot. It's highly, you know, it's highly specialized. So a lot of the animals that we see here are very, very, very intolerant of any kind of a change to their environment because they're so specialized. So, you know, when you get climate change or you get any type of a major

shift, those will be the first animals to go. The ones that have become highly adapted to, you know, their, their specific environment. And when that environment changes, they can't keep up, but you know, those generalists, the pigeons, the, you know, the, whatever they'll do well because they're a generalist. And you see that in plants, there's, there's, you know, the whatever, they'll do well, because they're a generalist. And you see that in plants, there's, there's, you know, highly specific plants, there's generalist plants, you know, I would say that invasive species are, you know, well, I guess you could even call them specialists, because they have certain adaptations that make them very good outside of their environment to take hold of certain things. So I don't know that it's a, you know, I guess it's even within those ideas, it's hard to kind of talk about

in a concrete way. But, but yeah, definitely. I think, you know, I think that, that there are like, to your point, you know, there are certain, certain things that you need to do, but I wouldn't write a rule book. Yeah. That's, you know, anytime somebody says, here's the recipe to do this, you know, be wary. Because, you know, conditions change. You know, some species that are very easy for one person to breed may be difficult for another just because of the place they live. Yeah, 100%. So, you know, there's no one way to to do everything I guess but yeah just keep learning

you know keep keep your eyes open observe your reptiles you know see kind of a lot of things a lot of cues you can catch uh catch if you're if you're looking you know if you're looking, if you're paying attention and you're learning. Or if you create a setup that lends itself to letting the animals get the cue. You know what I mean? I think the animals know better than we do. So missing a cue could be because we don't let animals cohabitate together at the right time. We miss that cue. So of course, they're not going to be where cohabitate together at the right time. We miss that cue. So, of course, they're going to, you know, they're not going to be where they need to be in the right time.

So, you know. I think we have a similar philosophy on that. You know, if you have the animals together, they're going to know their cues. You're probably not going to see reproductive events because they don't need to breed. And, you know, they're not like starved for they catch those hormonal cues and they're not like, oh, a female is in the area. I got to breed and you know they're not like uh starved for they they catch those hormonal cues and they're not like oh a female is in the area i gotta breed everything in sight you know and it's funny because i do do a lot of cohabitation and and and you know i was listening to eric and owen talk about the breeding carpet pythons episode they just did and and uh how you know when they

put animals together they see them lock up right away and And I'm like, I don't see that anymore. I hardly ever see that. But, you know, my animals just end up gravid because they don't, you know, they're not always trying to lock up with each other. They just, the male knows when he needs to lock up. They go off and they do their business and, you know, hey, cool. And I'm just along for the ride, you know hey cool and i'm just along for the ride you know keep a keep a guy and a and a woman in solitary confinement and then put them together for a week you better believe they're probably mating right off the bat you know right you know but that doesn't necessarily mean that you've hit

the you know the right timing of that so yeah exactly think we're, that was probably a terrible, gross example, but we'll move on. I think everybody got the point. Yeah. All right. Well, we move on to something else here. Uh, talk about the, the wonderful uplifting topic of calling. Yeah. Oh man. Now I've, I've kind of thought about this a little bit, especially in regards to zoos. I've heard about, you know, there was a big bust that occurred recently with a zoo that was sending out eggs and then a prominent, you know, keeper that was hatching them out and then selling them through another person. Um, you know, basically kind of going behind the zoo's back and selling animals on the, on the backside and, and the zoo assumed that the eggs were being called or, you know, put in the freezer or whatever, whatever they do with like egg fencing, like you're, you're, you're kind of moving stolen goods or and it was

dishonestly whatever yeah it was for endangered species or you know species that are protected by the endangered species act yeah and you know definitely unethical definitely not something they should have been doing a a no-no for the yeah for sure i i i guess i have a hard time just thinking about well we're just going to throw these eggs away even though they're very desirable and very valuable to the you know herpetocultural community um we're just gonna kill one probably probably the individual who was who was uh doing this probably felt much the same way you do like yeah i'm really gonna get rid of these like yeah i'm just gonna check these eggs or just throw them in the garbage or whatever we can just throw them we don't have to chuck them it's already giving up the coin tosses all right no i'm saying you should get them that we should i should you should

give them to chuck i never thought of it like that we'll just we'll just have you know the zoo say yeah i'm just gonna chuck chucking makes you the recipient no yeah yeah so you you'll have a bunch of different cool zoo species because they'll just chuck all their eggs you know i get it though i mean it's it's kind of a catch-22 because you know the zoos don't either depending on if they have an outlet for their offspring most of the time they probably don't try to breed their animals. And if they do, they, they might just throw the eggs, you know, uh, out and not, not hatch them.

Does that feel like a spiteful thing? Like, well, we would rather kill these than give them to the, the, the public at large, you know, you know, it kind of comes off as a lot of us in the hobby feel is like, Oh, well, Oh, there were not good enough for these, you know, whatever, but you know, I get it with something like maybe a Komodo dragon or, you know, a crocodilian or something. And I think there's probably great. Yeah. I think there's,

there's definitely examples of like, that would not be appropriate. Um, uh, but I, I mean, I think there's probably, you know, there's probably appropriate examples and, and, and I think there are some zoos that, that do allow animals to get out. It's been a, a rocky road between, um, hobbyists and zoos in the past. So I think especially certain zoos are very sensitive to that and do not deal with the public at all. And I think if, if I was one of those AZA organizations that was in the middle of a, a, an awful, you know, dealing with a, a, uh, you know, uh, a general reptile hobbyist, uh, I, I could, I can understand where they're coming from, but at the same time, like, you know, uh, well, and they have a

responsibility to these animals, you know, they're not, they're not breeding them for commercialization and they're not, you know, that's fair. That's fair. Yeah. But at the same time, I mean, you know, you think maybe they could benefit from that. You know, if there's some highly, highly like if they bred a bunch of Bolin's pythons, you know, release those to the hobby. There's not you know, there's plenty of hobbyists that can keep a Bolin's python happy and healthy or whatever, especially if you did that. I'm pretty sure a zoo could put conditions on that, that you would have to sign on to. And, and, and I'm pretty sure, uh, there'd be plenty of people out there who'd be willing to sign up and follow those rules if they could get, you know, right. Like I, I just, you know, and at the same time, I mean, how, if you, if you're, if you're getting them from a captive

bred source, are you going to want to buy a wild caught animal? No, you're going to take the captive bred animal that's been produced in the United States. And so, you know, that, uh, that kind of idea of commercialization, you know, kept there, what's the conservation through commercialization. It's kind of a gross thing. You know, I don't know. I, I've kind of have, have mixed feelings about that that but i guess that's what this show is about right having two sides to every coin i mean there is there is some you know nobody's gonna smuggle a bearded dragon out of australia they're not gonna make that risk because one they're totally available here you don't need to do that there's no unless you know genetic

diversity or something like that. But, um, you know, it's kind of a, once, once they're established, well-established in the pet trade, there's no need to smuggle them. There's no need for illicit activity. So, you know, that's, that's kind of my thoughts on that, but I don't know that probably, uh, off, off in my thinking a bit, but anyway, there's, there's, there's different ass, you know, different angles to that as well. Like all of our topics, it's, it's not a, yeah, it's not a simple cut and dry thing. You look at, uh, banded Fiji banded iguanas. They're commonly in easily bred in europe and not not that expensive but they're

not available in the hobby because that's one of the animals that the fish and wildlife has just said nope we're not gonna allow those to be around they're regardless of if they're captive bred in europe we want to uphold fijian law you know for some reason so even if they're not viable specimens for conservation like you know they've been interb So even if they're not viable specimens for conservation, like, you know, they've been interbred because back in the day there weren't several species, but there are now. And so, you know, they might've been hybridized and things. So. Yeah. Sometimes like taxonomy, it feels a little arbitrary. Yeah. I do see, you know, why, why these things are in place and why a lot of zoos might follow that attitude. And, you know, I'm not sure how we got on the, I guess I brought up the topic of culling at zoos and how that makes me feel. But at the same time, it's like, well, you know, they have a responsibility and they have, you know, rules they have to follow as well. And so even though it hurts to think of, you know, the Galapagos tortoise or like a

parentia going into the garbage, um, you know, it is what it is. And that's, that's where we're at now. So, um, I don't know any other ideas on culling or topics that we didn't bring up. No, moving on, moving on moving on all right well the last show we're going to talk about is the one with ball pythons as a first pet and that was a uh kendra and dominique did a great job and kind of bringing up the different sides of that that story so that was a fun episode yeah it was yeah, it was, you know, we, we branched out a little bit beyond just the topic at hand, talked about some, you know, women in herpetoculture, uh, as

Dominique is very passionate about that. Kendra as well. But you know, that was an important topic to discuss, I thought too. And maybe we need a dedicated show for that at some point. So we need to have some, some people here to discuss that one. Um, but very, you know, important topic, but you know, ball pythons, I think, you know, they can and they have a lot of good aspects about, you know, uh, being suitable as a pet. And they also have a lot of kind of frustrating aspects is, you know, being somewhat difficult

at times, but for the most part, I think they're, they're almost to the point where they're, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? Um, they're domesticated, you know, they're, they're pretty, pretty straightforward, pretty easy. I mean, I think, you know, like, like, uh, on the show, they touched on, you know, hunger striking ball pythons. And, you know, I, I think, you know, like, like on the show, they touched on, you know, hunger striking ball pythons. And, you know, I think that you could use that as a nice example of like, why they might not necessarily be a great first snake, because people freak out. And yeah, but at the same time, they're learning that, you know, not all reptiles eat all the time. And that, you know, you have to get outside of, of being a human being and, and understand a reptile a little bit more. And so, you know, as, as a teaching tool, I think they're, they're good. They're good for teaching. And, and I do think they're probably a pretty dang good first pet. Yeah.

How many people have been interested in genetics because they started keeping right. I think there's a lot there's a lot there that they can offer um you know a first-time reptile keeper so you know definitely uh they're they're um you know not like keeping a white lip or a scrub python or even a bitey carpet python like uh yeah you know for the most part i mean you sure as heck get bit by a ball python but uh yeah you know that's tends not to be their nature but yeah really uh you know a good topic to discuss is ball pythons are one of those monoculture species that a lot of people

keep or have kept or will keep you know they're they're a staple or a very important part of, of herpetoculture. And so to ignore that or to just kind of push them aside, they're just ball pythons is kind of, I guess, irresponsible or neglectful in some way. We need to say, okay, you know, these are an important part of herpetoculture and let's give them the respect they deserve and help people keep them properly and, and with success. So they want to look into other species. You know, that's kind of the, the idea, give them a good, uh, first go around and maybe they'll stick around. Justin's talking to you, Owen McIntyre. Owen doesn't listen to us. He doesn't have time.

He's too important and big. That's why we can talk about him and he'll never hear about it eric won't eric won't tip him off none of the interns will tell him we can just say whatever we want no i'm kidding i'm kidding no i'll have to go back and listen to all the episodes like what did they say about me i figured out why he hates bigfoot so much he's he's he has rather large feet or what he has yeah he has sasquatch in his parentage he's part sasquatch i'm i'm convinced of it and that's why he doesn't want people looking too closely too closely yeah end up in you know scientific study that's why he gets

so upset about it he was he was the stunt double and harry and the Hendersons. Is that what you're trying to tell me? May have been his grandfather. I don't know. It makes sense. The stars are aligning. Thank you, Justin. Thank you. He thinks he protests too much about. Yeah, he does.

He gets very upset. Yeah. He wants people to stop looking or they'll find him. Yeah. And it must be a heck of a, you know, to keep up on all the shaving that he has to do to appear human. You know, it's crazy. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm glad he doesn't listen to the show. I did run that, run that by him on the Arizona trip. Yeah. Good, good times. Good times. Oh, well, um, anything else to add or have we covered at all? I always have the, uh, the Simpsons, uh, sorry for the clip show theme song running through my head after the knees, but I, I do think it's, it's useful to go back and kind of revisit some of these topics and bring up some things we might

not have discussed or that might not have been covered in great extent. And so I think it's useful. Hopefully the listener got something out of this and it makes you think a little more or makes you think in a different way. So. I mean, I certainly, and the way I feel about it is, you know, we've done we've done another what, 15, 15 episodes past this. So so like, you know, talking to other guests and like, you know, having different topics. And then we go back to a topic that we covered a long time ago in a clip show. It's kind of like, oh, man, well, I had some perspective put on me from, you know, a later episode that, you know, maybe I thought this way, but now maybe I think this way. And I think some of these topics, you know, they're not going to change the way I feel about it. But definitely,

I think there's been some instances where I've said, oh, okay, you know, I see that a little differently. I think the Summers, again, I'll say Sum, I, I see, I see that a little differently. I think the, the summers, again, I'll say summers marketing, uh, episode was one where I was kind of like, all right. And, you know, I, I, I think of these, you know, the, the, the, the marketing stuff is kind of like, ah, whatever, you know, but no, I, I, I have definitely an appreciation and a difference of opinion than I used to have. So yeah. Yeah. Our, our, our guests have helped us understand things from different perspectives as well. And it's important.

I, I, I've enjoyed all the guests we've had on. It's been a lot of fun. And I, you know, we definitely appreciate the feedback that we've been getting from people who are listening and, and people who, you know, have different topics for shows. We, we'd love to hear more of them. So keep the, keep the ideas coming. And if you're willing to come on the show, we'd love to have you, if you've got a good topic that can be discussed from both sides. So we appreciate the input we've got and thanks for listening yeah yeah um well uh we are i think at the end of

our show here anything we we are at the end of our rope yeah yeah we have well again i'll you know say i i i really enjoy being a member of the mp family this is this is a lot of fun and i appreciate all the work from eric and and the rest of the morelia pythons network crew and and for you know the opportunity to to record and have this podcast it's been a lot of fun and having an established network with a lot of great shows um um, is very important. I've, I've been enjoying some of the shows recently. And, uh, so give them a listen. If you haven't heard them, uh, Morelia pythons radio, um, there's a lot of different podcasts and, and, uh, check out the Morelia pythons network. If, if you're looking for more reptile content, but, um, thanks for listening and, uh, we will catch

you again next week. Later alligators. All right. I was, I was hoping to hear a good one from you, Chuck. Yeah. I try. All right. See you later.

Bye. Bye. so Thank you. Outro Music