Reptile Fight Club - Reptile Fight Club Debates Caging

Episode Date: June 10, 2022

In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the topic of caging for reptiles.Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to the LVR Network. Really? Chew on, brother. Chew on. All right. Welch's Fruit Chews. This episode of Reptile Fight Club is brought to you by Welch's Fruit Chews. They're my favorite. Chew on.

Yummy. What's your – you have a better slogan? No. Okay. Sorry. We'll go with get your chew on. thank you welches for sponsoring this episode of reptile fight club i think you just contractually got us into trouble i don't think you can do that okay well if anybody from welches is listening that was a joke oh because chuck is enjoying

one of your wonderful wonderful products i'm enjoying one of your wonderful, wonderful products. I'm enjoying several of them. All right. Well, maybe we should get a sponsorship. Maybe they'll start sending you products if we mention them, you know? I don't know. All right. Well, I'm trying to get through a book. I got invited to – well, I kind of invited myself, but to Eric's Book Club because they're talking about Stolen World.

And I freaking love that book. So hopefully, I think it'll be out before you hear this. So you have to know how to read to get into Eric's book club. I don't know. I just know that I've read it a couple of times and it's one of my favorite books. I love that book. If I could, if I could get a book on tape and listen to it, can I be in the club? That's what I was trying to do. I was trying to find it on tape because that'd make it a lot easier to get through it. But I just, I knew I had a copy of it somewhere but i couldn't find the physical copy and then i remembered i bought it on um amazon what's the kindle app and so i was trying to find it there and i logged in under mine it wasn't there so then

heidi logged in it was on hers so that would have been awkward if somebody had stolen your stolen world. Right. It's kind of funny. Very poetic justice. Oh yeah. That's me. Poetic justice. There you go. Yeah. I'm,

I'm more, I'm more Tupac than Janet Jackson though. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for joining us listener. And we're excited to, to to fight again today we need to get

some guests on here we've got we've got a couple lined up um we just got to find some good topics yeah we look like two dudes that have no friends yep that's true it's true we got each other so that's all that counts all i need man gotta we'll fight with each other till the till the day we die like marry like a married couple yeah yeah are you gonna come see me though soon right yeah man i'm excited that's gonna be awesome again well it'll be a pretty short short venture but it'll be a few hours of of you know straight herping but that should be fun i'll talk to the reptiles before you get here, man. It'll be popping. Oh yeah. If you want to go out a day or two before and just, you know, spread the word, you know, figure out what's out, what's going on. You,

you deserve a little time off of work, man. I do. You've been putting in the hours. It's ridiculous. I don't even want to go there anymore. I need a way. I need a way that I can be self-profitable without actually having to do my job. There you go. And that's a trick. It's really a trick. Oh yeah. Yeah, that's for sure. So many people do that, but yeah, I haven't figured out a way to do that. I showed up to showed up to work i got there early i was feeling good about myself like here i am early to work i'm in my office typing away and then i got an hour into it i get a text my co-workers like are you coming to this training i'm like oh crap i forgot about a select agent training. Listen, that's when you just say, no.

Yeah, I wish. These are like mandatory trainings, even though I only go in the lab itself like twice a year. I would almost venture a guess that the select agent training is not optional. But yeah, you know, it just sounds like a mandatory. So what's up? Are you guys, are you select agent training on monkey pox? No, we don't work with any poxes anymore. We did work with a few pox viruses back in the day, but no more pox virus.

Or they're making a comeback. Yeah. I mean, monkey pox pops up every once in a while i've seen a few outbreaks in my time but uh i don't know i i think they stopped funding work and then the guy that was doing that work retired and so we just haven't gotten into research yeah be careful of the you know petting your prairie dog that you just imported. Wait a minute. Is it prairie dogs?

I think prairie dogs. I read something like African rats or something was a potential. But they haven't really identified a host animal. Is that not true? No, no. They've identified several host animals i think i think that was i mean it wasn't in the prairie dogs to begin with but they were they like shared air or whatever at the import facility so the prairie dogs caught it from yeah whatever rat or or other you know or something that brought it in and then they transmitted it i think to to somebody who bought a prairie dog. I, that seems to ring a bell. I could be way off, but yeah.

I'll be careful when I buy some prairie dogs. Good old viruses, man. They, they're, uh, they're wacky. They, they, they are important these days. Well, they've been important for a long time, I suppose. Yeah. I think they've definitely been important. Yeah. So Eric's backyard would have been our nation's capital uh philadelphia would have been uh oh i was thought you were being like really literal and i was like that would be awesome no no we could have carpet fest in eric's

backyard and it would be the nation's capital now now in real terms explain what you mean because i don't know philadelphia was the capital of the united states for like before it was the united states right while they were kind of forming the the different uh governmental uh whatever you want to call it i'm not thinking i'm very eloquent today We don't get bogged down with details on Fight Club. Move on. Come on. But then yellow fever hit, I guess, from importation of slaves and things like that. So serves them right, I suppose.

But the yellow fever started spreading among Philadelphia, and so they abandoned it. It just took off. Anybody in the government or that had enough money just uh took off and and left oh here's a little visitor my uh sweet wife say hi say hi to the people Heidi it's just me and the dog so I was gonna see you guys in the Dr. Pepper song she's fueling my my fight with the

Dr. Pepper so I'll see your welches and oh that reminds me this episode of Reptile Fight Club brought to you by Dr. Pepper drink the pepper wait what's their slogan I like a do the pepper wait what's their slogan i don't know

she's much better at this than you are we got summer too man everybody is popping in say hello no they can't see it they can just hear it so it makes for riveting uh audio yeah all right well hello world you're here's one more oh my gosh the whole family is coming in this is awesome yeah don't you remember chuck this is You remember Ashley? Yes, of course. Chip Pants is the man. The all-famous Chip Pants. Yeah, that's what's up. Nice.

Laugh it up, Chuckles. Ashley's been waiting to say that. In case you didn't hear that, she said, laugh it up, Chuckles. I do. I do. He does. Bye. Bye, guys. Bye. Love does. Bye. Bye, guys.

Bye. Bye. Bye. Good luck to you. Yeah. Are you ready for those blackhead eggs? Oh, man. I'm so ready.

I just hope they make a position. I wasn't talking to you, Julander. Oh, Summer. Sorry. Summer's gone. She's gone. She was the one that gathered them i know i know that's why that's why i kind of threw that her away because yeah i know she was

instrumental in getting them into the incubator in good in good condition and like you know ready to go and here they are like a week or less from distance and the smile on your face if if if if the internet could see i'm sure they can feel that just radiant glow of my smile oh my god black headaches hatching now if they don't hatch oh man that's gonna change that smile pretty quick but um i i looked at so there was you know they're they're looking like the end of incubation, you know, they're looking a little hashed and a little bit better than worse for the wear, but I mean, they're, they're sinking in quite a bit. And there was one that looked like, ah, I don't even think this is fertile or going

to make it or anything. And so I thought, well, I'll open it up and see, you know, just a little window inside. And so I, I cut a little slit and looked inside, and there was a little blackhead baby moving around. So even the worst-looking egg looks like it's got something good in it. So I'm really stoked. That's a dang good sign. I really need these things to hatch, right?

No doubt. Yeah. Well, I feel like just for your own sanity and peace of mind, this has been a thing this year, which is a good thing your own sanity and peace of mind. Yes. This has been a thing. This has been a thing this year, which is good. A good thing, but a thing nonetheless. Yeah. It just needs to happen.

That's all. Yeah. Are you going to get a third inland clutch? It doesn't look like it. Although, I don't know. The female just shed a little while back, and she looks pretty full. But I don't know. She might be a little on the overweight side so it's hard to tell

um so it may or may not come but i always do this i always do exactly what you're doing and then eggs come and i'm like oh yeah what was i thinking she totally wasn't you know that big yeah yeah and i'm like why why did i doubt myself yep it's it's tricky this time of year. And I think you hear that from a lot of people, right? Yeah. You're Eric and Owen talking about that. Oh, you know, you second guess it. Oh. But then if you, if you have somebody come visit, they're like, oh yeah, that, that girl's

grabbing for sure. You know, dude. Yeah. Did you, did you hear Eric? Did you hear Eric and Owen on NPR? Yeah. Yeah. Owen's looking for the source of the Mac and Wookiee. Did you hear Eric and Owen on NPR? Yeah. Yeah.

Owen's looking for the source of the Mac and Wookie. Oh, yeah. He's trying to pin it down. You know, if he listened to the podcast. I know. He would know this whole, like, he would know that there is no one person to blame for the Mac and Wookie. Oh, there is. No. One person.

One person. This's no one person. This is a network-wide thing. The name Mac and Wookie comes down to one genius mind. I don't know about that. I may just be the spark that lit the fire. No, no, no. You got to take credit where credit's due i mean yeah come come on npr network am i wrong am i wrong in anything that i've said mac and wookiee is a wonderful term and oh gosh i i got a shirt you know oh nice did you get andy middleton you got his size and i got his size

got the shirt and then i totally spaced off printing it and ironing on and getting all that stuff done so i'm still uh still in the process of uh getting the mac and wiki shirt don't worry andy you'll get your shirt come andy will get the shirt yeah yeah i'll get it done before my trip and then we'll get it sent off to him hopefully he'll get it if if we're out herping in the anza borrego desert and justin hasn't sent your shirt i will flog him for you and and i guess that you know when you win something you can't be too you know like it was free and let's be honest, the Mackinwookie is an elusive creature, so you can't exactly expect your shirt to just come right away. You know what I mean?

There you go. It's like hide-and-seek for a T-shirt, too, a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it's like the mystery of the Mackinwookie. You know, you never know when it will show up. That's true. Be surprised.

You'll be surprised. Don't know when you're going to encounter the Mackinwookie. Yeah. I've, I've, I've been, you know, been,

been around the Mackinwookie quite a bit and it's, it's pretty thrilling, you know, the Mackinwookie is busy this year. Yeah. Yeah. He's getting married. He's getting married.

He's got a lot of eggs to take care of. A lot of snakes that are going to come. He's going to be a very, very busy guy. He'll finally have a chance of being a proven male. Yep. Ouch. Ouch. Indeed.

Yeah. So. All right. Well, what's it, what's going on with you nothing's like your welch's fruit chews leave me alone they're delicious they're delicious to be fair he did ask me to wait to record so yeah well you didn't he just pushed he just pulled a he pulled an eric well it's a reverse eric right like like like eric's supposed to shut it off but he leaves it running and then

owen says something justin just hits record before and and doesn't tell me and then i say stuff so it's like it's like the reverse eric yeah anyway yeah so uh what's going on? Not much. Yeah. Let's see. Keeping up with all those geckos? Yeah. I'm busy, dude. Nice.

Yeah. Yeah. They're getting big. I don't know. I put out ads for it, and in typical fashion, the only people who respond are like, you got a pair, like a sex pair that are ready to reproduce for like super cheap like yeah oh my gosh that's the best you know that's the best you know they're really into it when they want to yeah sex pair ready to breed and that's i don't

know i think i think you kind of miss the boat when you get adult animals i like raising up and seeing it kind of develop and grow and yeah that's part of the fun i think well i mean like what's the whole like you know you get a group like whatever happened to get a group and raise them up and figure out their sex and pair them and all that like i i don't i when i buy animals i i'm like look at them if i like the way they look i just buy them and then sort it all out later. And then if I have to, you know, if I get a pair of cool, if I don't, then I'm hunting for more. But I don't know, man. I guess people want these like, I don't want to do any work.

Just give me the breeders and they'll just do, you know, they'll do their thing. It's like, but then, but then those, the people don't want to pay, you know, like if you were to, if you were to, you know, raise these things up and feed them and they're basically like turnkey breeders, people want the cheapest price on that. And it's like, no dude, if I'm just going to, you know, if I did all the work for you, sexing them out, raising them up, feeding them up and getting them going. Like, why would that be cheap? You know, why wouldn't you want to pay? You know, you should pay out the nose for

that because somebody did all the work for you. Otherwise, just do the work yourself and figure it out and enjoy the animals while you're growing them up. Like I'm with you, man. I really enjoy raising them up and like seeing them through their different stages. And oh, by the way, you learn some things about your animals before you try to breed them. I mean, I know. Some species are a little sensitive. You know, they get to your place and they don't adapt as well. And I've always had much better luck growing up babies in, you know,

the environment that they'll eventually be bred in and that kind of thing. I agree. It seems to work out much better that way. You know, that's just, I'm curious to see when this phase of herpetoculture is going to go away. The whole, I want to make money as quickly as possible. You know, give me the adult pair. And when we get a stop, stop dancing with that whole thing. And, you know, I imagine some states are earlier than others and some kind of lag behind. It seems like we're still entering the,

I'm going to be a millionaire breeding ball pythons stage in Utah with, with some of the shows here. You're still stuck back in the, in the, uh, the early nineties. A little bit, a little bit a little bit yeah yeah you know well you're not you're not well you're not i mean the sutherlands came here several years back and you know really we're producing a lot of cool ball pythons and stuff you know i didn't even see a ball i wouldn't even know that they did ball pythons from the last i mean they've they've kind of branched out.

I mean, they still breed ball pythons. I'm sure they do. I'm sure they still have a lot of different stuff. And, you know, I think, you know, the colubrids are starting to be, but it still seems like, well, and maybe that's how it's, I guess reading this book kind of has me thinking a little bit, the stolen world, you know, it talks about Hank Moult and, and Tom Crutchfield and kind of that idea of, you know, they were raised on like the, the adventures that went out and collected for zoos and things like that. And, you know, they wanted to be these guys exploring crazy places and finding very rare things that nobody'd seen before and bringing them back alive, you know, that kind of attitude. And, you know, it's, it's, it is kind of a cool, uh, idea or adventurous idea. You know, you think about that, that would be pretty sweet, you know, it's very romantic. I mean,

it's a romantic tale for sure. Yeah. Kind of a hero's journey kind of deal. But then at the same time, they're just going there and, you know, flashing money at the locals to go find them. So it's not like they're really getting out there and doing it. So I kind of like – Hey, don't ruin their story. Yeah, right? Yeah. And, you know, they do have some great stories.

I mean, Hank Malt talks about climbing up a tree and catching a Fiji banded iguana and then falling out of the tree into a lake and then raising the iguana out of the water. You know, I'm sure he got a lot of mileage out of that story. I'm sure. But at the same time, man, it's just like excruciatingly painful to listen to how they just screw each other over. Like they're all just crooks and, you know, doing all these things that are totally illegal. But I don't know. I guess that was kind of what they were raised up on. And so now the next generation is raised up on like snakes and deli cups. towards, you know, the excitement and field herping and just finding them and taking a picture and letting that be kind of what satisfies or satiates your, your excitement to find new

species or to find more reptiles rather than buying them at a reptile show, you're getting out in the wild and, and just finding them and taking a picture and walking away. You know, that's, that's a thrill, very similar in many ways to acquiring a new species. Um, but you know, that's a thrill very similar in many ways to acquiring a new species. But, you know, taking a picture, you don't have to feed and change the picture. You don't have to clean up its crap. You know, it's pretty easy to take care of a picture. And then you can always remember that, you know, seeing that animal in the natural environment, you know, remembering where you saw it and the situation and stuff. And not all stories

are as exciting as others you know you roll up in a car and see it on the road it's not really that exciting as maybe hiking but do you need to participate in the shakespearean tragedies of old in order to have a good theater in your life i don't know i. I don't know. Yeah. But I, I mean, I definitely enjoy getting into a new place and just exploring hiking, you know, look, looking for stuff, trying to find, you know, you have much better, uh, you know, abilities to research an area and to kind of see where people have seen them before, you know, you have information at your fingertips and, you know, even real-time information like people posting, Hey, I just found this. And you're like, Oh, I know where they are. I'm going to go towards where they are and

see if I can find it too. Or, you know, looking at iNaturalist and finding a point on the map and going, okay, it's been found here. I'm going to go search around this area. You know, that kind of stuff makes it a lot easier to get out and go find stuff. And, and, and I hope, you know, we're moving past and I don't know, I get it. I get the, I get that, that desire or want to be able to see that every day to, to have it, you know, in your reptile room and stuff. But at the same time, it makes it all that more exciting when you see one, when you know, you just have a, you know, uh, an hour or so with the animal and then you're going to let it go on its way. Um, there's something really cool about that too. And then, you know, you can go find another one and go back to that same area

hundreds of times, if you want, find different individuals and kind of get an idea of what the population's doing and all that kind of stuff. So lots of cool stuff to be done. So what I was saying before I accidentally unplug my stuff and completely cut myself off, thanks for the save, Justin, and the public service announcements was that, you know, I totally agree with you. And I think, you know, if you kind of look at like where I mean, I guess if you believe climate change and all these things like, you know, you probably ought to get out there and see that stuff. You probably ought to get out there and go do that stuff because you know the the pace of

of human uh development isn't slowing down we're changing ecosystems and and climate is changing ecosystems and so you know who knows how much longer we have with some of these species uh to even see in the wild and and you know maybe nothing wrong with keeping if if uh you know you believe in the uh the the the theory of the ark and you know bringing some of this stuff into collections as a means to keep it around um but certainly i i think most everybody um is paying attention to to the climate and where that's going. And, and hopefully won't argue with me that if you want to see it now is probably the time and take your kids because maybe your kids might be telling stories about how I remember, you know, when I was younger,

I could go see this and we can't find this. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, there was a really nice area to cruise for reptiles down in St. George. And I remember going, going in there and just, you know, being excited about all the sand and rock and stuff like that. And, uh, there was a little state park back, you know, set off the road quite a ways. You had to drive a little bit until you got to the, to the entrance of the state park. And now the whole area is houses, like condos, houses. They're right up to the gate of the state park. And it's just the, you know, I get it. People need to live somewhere.

But do they really need to pave over Gila monster habitat? I don't know. There's so few places in Utah you can see a Gila monster. But yet we're going to allow people to pay for the habitats. And I just heard, um, the fine for filling a tortoise burrow in Florida with cement, you know, basically killing the tortoise slowly as it, you know, the cement hardens around it, um, is less, the fine for killing a tortoise is less than the permit to pave over, you know, their habitat or so, you know, or, or to get them removed or whatever.

So, so it's easier just to kill them than to get them removed and, you know, do the right thing. So that just makes no sense. I mean, I don't know. And, you know, I think there's a lot of instances where we're protecting animals into oblivion. You know, you put them on the endangered species list, but if you're not protecting their habitat and giving them, and, you know, recent studies have shown that some animals don't just need like an island of habitat in the middle of, you know, human habitation. They need a larger swath or connected areas of natural land and trees and all that, you know, their natural habitat.

Or else they just kind of squander, you know, go away. Yeah. It's just frustrating. I don't know. And with the laws in Florida, I mean, I don't know. You can't, you can't keep them anymore. You're just going to pay for their half pretty soon. We're just not going to have that resource. We're not going to have that enjoyment. So yeah. Well, it just, it just feels like nobody has like, like there's no, there's no overarching plan. know what i mean it's just it's just a hodgepodge of of doesn't make sense and you know like i come and come at it from like

a nipa sequa um kind of you know looking at what the environmental protections are especially in the state of california which is sequa and then nipa which which is nationally. And NEPA is very, very weak, like very, very weak. What it basically says is you need to consider the environmental impact of what you're doing. What California says is you will consider that impact. You will make mitigations. But there's offsets you can make. There's you know, you're basically bargaining your way into something. And and, you know, I mean, these are all these are all frameworks which which are set in place to consider the impacts of, you know, of human of human progress. But they're not there to stop human progress. They're not there to check human progress. And, you know, anyway, a city, you know, my city Chula Vista, they,

they have built tons and tons of houses. They've handed out so many housing permits out here on what is essentially, you know, old ranch land. And, you know, it's getting so crowded here and and it's so beautiful like you know there's there's kind of by my house there's there's chaparral out there and it's just trails you can walk chaparral and it's amazing to go out and you're like they're gonna totally pave all over this and it's just gonna be a concrete jungle and it's gonna suck and there's gonna be tons of people but how do

how does the city generate revenue how does well not by protecting animals you know and not by protecting you know uh coastal sage or scrub land you know they don't that's not in the equation so you know it's the land left and and i mean i i don't know. It's hard because I do like the federal lands and the ability to have public lands where you can go and explore. Now Utah is talking about, oh, we want that land for the state. And we want to be able to sell it and make money off it. And you just see that just going bad. Right now we can enjoy these public lands and look let's be honest about why public lands were protected it's not because it's not because of the selfless beauty

that politicians saw in greater north america to protect for future generations it's because they realize that there's vast amounts of natural resource that the government wants to protect so that they can extract it for profit. Potentially later in time. Potentially. So what do you do? Do you sell that all off to private people where the bulk of the national treasure in resources is held by private hands or is held by the government. Do I agree that's the right choice? Yes, I think protecting public lands, national parks, all of that is good. But don't get confused on why it happened, right? It comes out of a selfish, resource-oriented growth and human –

I mean I was encouraged – Human-centric approach. I was encouraged by like Bears Ears in Utah where they designated a large area in the Bears Ears as protected land. And there was, there were quite a bit of resources and they prevented those from being developed by, by making that. Now the next president came along and shrunk that,

but then since then, it's been. And that's, and that's what I'm saying is like, it just depends on who's in office. Yeah. And you look at, you look at ANWR. You look at the Alaskan Wildlife Refuge and that whole thing about like there's not that much oil up there. But the whole concept was like should we let anybody drill there?

Should we not? And the only reason extraction companies wanted to drill there is because if you can set the precedent that we can drill in a national wildlife refuge then we can drill anywhere and then there's no and and that's what it was about it wasn't really about whether there was enough oil to make it they didn't care about that they were setting a precedent about being able to go and drill wherever the fuck i guess the the main point is get out and see this stuff get out and appreciate it because then that's gonna make you want to protect that you're gonna vote to protect national lands i mean frankly that's you know the reason i vote the way i vote is because i care about wild lands

and you know protecting wildlife and things like that the other stuff is not not really that interesting to me. Yeah. So, yeah. Sorry, folks. That was a bit of a left field rant. And I am prone to do that when environmental and environment things show up. Yeah, that's what grinds my gears, folks. That's what grinds my gears. So, yeah, he got me off on a, on a tangent and

yeah, that's not even our fight today. I know. That's what I was just going to say is that has absolutely zero to do with what we came here to do. All right. Well, should we do it? What are we fighting? Let's fight about caging. Should, should you make your own cages and design your own things and make your own, you know, fake rocks and stuff like that. I guess I've been thinking about that because that's what I've been doing right now. I mean, I bought some exoterra type, you know, front opening glass cages and I've been putting in fake rock and trying to make a naturalistic setup for some of my lizard species. And, you know, it's pretty fun. I enjoy it so i thought well let's

talk about that let's let's fight about caging and should you make your own should you buy them pre-made should you uh you know we'll we'll discuss that so pros and cons of making your own cages or or buying so despite all my rage i'm still just a rat in a cage. All right. Thank you. Um, SP no, uh, Billy, Billy Corgan, dude, Billy Corgan. Yep. He was on small wonder, right? Wasn't that the big debate back then in the nineties? Billy Corgan was the star of small wonder. The boy star of small wonder, I guess the kid was, his name was Billy Corgan was on the call. The star of Small Wonder, the boy star of Small Wonder, I guess the kid was, his name was Billy Corgan.

So there was the rumor out there that that was him that started Smashing Pumpkins. And he went from being a child star to Smashing Pumpkins. To being an adult child. But guess what? There were two Billy Corgans. Go figure. I found out there's at least three Justin Julanders. I am not the only Justin Julander.

There was another Justin Julander that was like up in my arms. You're the only Justin Julander to me, buddy. Well, I appreciate that. You're the only Sweet Lady DDP chugging Justin Julander. I guarantee that. And herping for sure. Yeah. If there's another one, a sweet lady,

DDP chugging, a herping, Justin Juhlander, look out world. Look out. Cause we have the Hedron collider took us into the multiverse and got things screwed up. I definitely want to meet that other Justin Juhlander.

I did come close. I was, uh, what if it's really Trevor? Yeah. Trevor's real name is Justin Juliener, the nude herper of Southern California. Dude, it could be. It could be.

He could be. He's the anti. Yeah, he could be your multiverse, you know. Yeah. Oh, wow. I feel like we aren't even high on drugs and we're coming up with crazy stuff. We don't want to go down that road, man. We don't know.

All right. Okay. Anyway, yes. You ready to call it? Oh, my God. You're hurrying me. I feel rushed. I feel rushed.

I feel rushed. That's heads. Oh, my gosh. Tails, man. What has happened to your luck streak? It is gone. Disappeared. Let me see this coin

did you switch coins i did not i gotta figure this out is that the same coin do you want to do a second one it's legit for fun oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah that's tails it's heads what the fuck man you're back i even went the opposite direction to 2021 what is going on we did i think i got in your head i think i should get a whole year of winning before i have to start right you had a you had a good solid half a year i mean right okay well i'm gonna go with the the pro building your own cages like doing doing it yourself. Of course you were. Of course I am. Of course you were.

All right. Well, tell me why it's better to buy some pre-made garbage cage. Because they look better. They look better? Okay. Well, I've seen some of your rock work. Oh, no. It's the work in progress.

Hey, listen. Compared to the exo work. Oh, no. It's a work in progress. Hey, listen, listen. Compared to the Exo Terra backgrounds, give me a break. Listen, the guys that do the rocks in Ari and Ari, they're all professionals. Julender, you're an amateur at this. Okay, but they still look better than those foam backgrounds you get in an Exo Terra. I mean, that may be true, but, you know. Damn it. All right. Yeah, I agree, that may be true, but, you know. Damn it. All right.

Yeah, I agree with that, but that's not what we're talking about here. Okay, tell me what you're talking about. Oh, I was just talking about just regular cages. You have an Ari Bilgey cages? Is that what you're talking about? Well, that would be awesome. I mean, I feel like Ari is busy, though. He's got other stuff to do.

I'm so excited to see his place. That looks so cool. Reptolandia, Texas, hurry up and get done. Well, and from what I understand is there's maybe a company or a couple companies that do all that rock work because it's a highly specialized thing. And like the generally speaking, the contractor who does the zoos does like all the zoos because that's what they do.

And they travel and they send people places to do that rock work because it's not the easiest thing to do. So I forgive you for your rock backgrounds looking like crap because, you know, there's people who do this professionally and they fly all over the nation. I'll clarify. It's just the paint job that looks like crap because you know there's people who do this professionally and they fly all over the nation i'll clarify it's just the paint job that looks like crap the rocks look pretty cool and they fit really nicely in the i mean and the lizards are using it too i saw them like go down the rock crack and in the little crevice it was pretty sweet sorry they were they were crappy my stuff is no i'm I'm not saying your stuff is crappy. Your paint job was bad.

Yeah, it did not look like what I was going for. And that's what I'm saying is maybe you buy a cage and there are a lot of really talented people out there who make caging and and you know a lot of like these plastic cages are put on computer seeing computer numerical controlled machines and and cut and they're cut to very very very very high tolerances so they fit together perfectly they have nice fit and function and and you know there's several companies that are doing kind of aftermarket, you know, rock work. And I can't think of the name of the company now, but, you know, maybe maybe you're not a super handy person. Maybe you're not that. I want to spend my next five weekends in a row repainting the rock wall in my cage that I'm trying to get going. You know, there's companies out there where you can just buy the stuff and do it. And, you know, maybe it's not as necessarily rewarding, but but maybe maybe that's not some people's get down. You know what I mean?

Like not everybody gets the thrill out of it. And I'm like you, man. I'm a do-it-yourselfer. And I like that. I like that shit. But I recognize that not everybody is like that. I mean, all my neighbors call a professional when they have a problem. And I'm like, I am the professional.

But I'm just more of the amateur professional. Yeah. So, you know what I mean? Sure. Sure. No, I mean, I, I agree to, to an extent that, you know, you do go through some growing pains, learning how to do this stuff. And, you know, my, my early attempts at cage building were pretty shoddy and, you know, I was trying to use the cheapest material possible and stuff like that. But yeah, I kind of learned by doing and i get rid of those and make new ones and replace those so most of the stuff in my reptile room is stuff that i've made aside from a few cages that i bought from you from me yeah and then a couple that you know i got from a long time ago. So, but the rest of them are pretty, you know, pretty kind of self-made. But I guess the downside of buying those things is, man, those things are expensive.

You get good rock backgrounds and stuff. It's going to cost you a pretty penny, even for a small segment, you know, for a smaller tank. You know, say what you will about Brian Barczyk, but like he, he documented the building of the Reptarium and showed all the, you know, the building, the cages and the rock work inside the cages and stuff like that. And he had a company down in Texas come and do it. Probably the one you're thinking of, but they came up and did all the caging. And, I mean, they had to – But that's not cheap either.

Oh, no, no. I'm not saying that's cheap. But it shows you the process. And, I mean, he's – Right. Yeah. You have to be like a millionaire YouTube star to make a Reptarium or whatever. And I'm with you on this but like i guess what i'm saying is that

as a guy who's bought caging and a guy who's built caging you think that you can save some money when you build the caging but what you find out is after you're done buying all the little things and all the stuff that you need it ends up costing you the same or more money. I don't know. I haven't found that, but maybe it's the, you know, relative cost of building materials or something. I don't know. Well, I mean, possibly, but I mean,

I would also say it depends on what you're making it out of, right? Sure, sure. Like, so, you know, if you're using wood, are you using, you know, three quarter plywood? Are you using OSB? Are you using press board? Are you using how thick is it? Like, you know, what, how are you fastening it?

Like, what are you, you know, like, I think all of that comes into play. And I guess to my point is doing those natural enclosures and things like that, you need to have the right materials. You need to do it right. Otherwise, it's going to fall apart and you're just going to be redoing it. So, one, you need to have the technical skill and some knowledge base around how to do that kind of construction. And if you don't, potentially you can cost yourself in the long run because you're always having to fix it or, you know, it doesn't come out right or, you know, you end up having to redo it. Yeah. And, you know, that's my first attempt at rock work. I was building a cage for some newly acquired Brettles pythons that I got from Casey

Lazik and was building a cage and i wanted to have some rock shelves and rock work in there and so i i did my best effort but i used the you know like the shipping um boxes the the white styrofoam that's got a little yeah it's like cellular yeah it's like yeah and then coated that with tile grout and and that was about it and it did not hold up and it would chip and break anything, knock against it, or it would, you know, hit it hard. It would break. And so, yeah, I ended up getting rid of that cage, but, um, you know, it was, it was kind

of cool while lasted. And, you know, I, I, I, I was kind of happy with the way it turned out, but, you know, I learned kind of the hard way. So yeah, you're right. In the long run, you might spend the same amount building several iterations of the cage. But the cage design that I really like, I haven't really seen commercially available to some extent. I mean, you could probably make most of the cages work for the design I had in mind, but some of the ones that I have were custom made, you know, with the drawer underneath the cage. So it's kind of like a subterranean burrow type area.

And I really like that design. I'm surprised I don't, you know, nobody's kind of run with that and made that a staple kind of cage design. But I guess, but boxes, you know, with lines or shelves or something. And I guess there's part of me that kind of wonders like, why, like,

like what if, what if we had a, a, a much more robust, you know, manufacturing sector in the reptile industry. And we could get that kind of like, we could take ideas

that that were more practical uh and worked in different you know had different design ideas and things and put and put them into practice but it's it's kind of not you know it's like when people start building cages they they just kind of go off of a design that like you know how many cages look like ap cages like tons and tons and tons of people look at those cages and they're like ah okay i can copy this design or i have this basic idea and that's kind of what they run with they're not trying to reinvent they're not patenting those cages you know and it's it's not a difficult design you know they usually make them to maximize the materials and things so yeah you know it works

it's and and also some of those caging companies take forever to get you a cage so if you can compete locally or something and get get a local cage maker that's going to basically make you the same thing you know why not go that way but yeah and and really i mean i that's kind of um the the reason i started making some of these cages is i priced out the materials and i found i could make them for half as much or or a third as much or a quarter as much you know it is what people were charging for some of these racks or, or cages or whatnot. And so, um, and, and you can find little ways to, to make, I, I think it was Alan Stevens that was showing me, um, some, he bought some boxes from Uline, you know,

just the wood shipping crates or whatever. And he bought like a bunch of those and sealed them on the inside with some, you know waterproof thing he could actually hold water in it and it wouldn't leak into the wood anything and then um so you know that's kind of my next idea is to get a bunch of those and kind of make them how i want them and have just a a wall of of cages that maybe connect you know so you can take out a divider and male and female can kind of, you know, interact that way. And, but then the rest of the year they can be housed separately or something like that. So,

you know, just, uh, different, different ways that can make it. And I think for, um, you know, they're, they're not terribly expensive and they come with all the parts you need to kind of assemble a box basically. So you just turn it on its side. You have that front. You can make it a, you know, an opening door, put a window in it or something like that, you know. So there's a lot of ways to kind of make that happen. And then there's a lot of tutorials online on how to make fake rocks or, you know, design your cage or outfit your cage for a lot less money, stuff like that. So

I don't know, a lot of good options out there if you're, if you're looking to kind of DIY a lot of plans, even, you know, with measurements and materials where you buy the materials and everything, it makes it really easy. Yeah. I mean, I do think there are a lot of DIYers out there and there's definitely a lot of, you know, there's no shortage of I think there's no shortage of desire to want to have customized enclosures. You know, I just think that, you know, for some people like myself, you know, time is money and, you know, where I really like to do that stuff, but I'm, I literally, between work and reptiles and my kids and, you know, family, hobby, dogs, all this stuff. Like I, I don't have a ton of time to do that. And so in my mind, it's, it's like, all right, do I pay somebody for, you know, for, for it? Or do I do it myself? And, and maybe, you know,

there's a little bit of both there and, and, you know, I don't necessarily think that, um, you know, having custom all decked out enclosures, um, is, is necessarily like, so I was checking out, um, Luke's YouTube and, and I was looking at his monitor enclosures where he had those. Oh, yeah. He had like Kimberly in the back. Like vinyl screening or whatever. And that's a really, that's a really, you know, and he basically used, you know, plastic cages um so you can you know i i think there's maybe uh a middle ground somewhere where you can do kind of custom work like that that's not high but that looks that stuff looks

amazing yeah you know what i mean it's like but it's just a picture that's like put in the back but it's like it's like you know and and and and, and, and, and it took him going out and, you know, you listen to him talk about it and he was like, you know, why am I wasting all this time trying to put all this, this stuff in here when it's, you know, look at, look at the area. And, you know, I, I just, I don't know, it was, it was impressive. The, the mental articulation that he went through. And I mean, he had to go out there and you know he was he was out there in the nt and and saw that and was like okay i can do this um and and just amazing amazing work but i think i think you know maybe in a in in in a rare omission of fight club compromise uh i would say that you know there's ways to do both.

And I think it just – unfortunately, I think it kind of comes to some of the people who want to get into the manufacturing and retail side of dry goods and services for rept they, they need to up their game. They need to up their game. And, and, you know, it's, it just seems like, you know, I'm just going to say it. It just seems like rather than keep promising people, oh, we're going to up our, you know, capabilities or whatever. And, and your, your lead times never go down. They're just eight or nine months. And despite what they say, it just doesn't sound like they're upgrading facilities if it's still eight, nine months, two years later, right? So that's just what they're telling people. And it's kind of like, oh, well, we're not going to expand our manufacturing base.

But maybe get into other ways. I think specializing, I think doing different stuff, providing different services may be a path forward. really innovate some different designs and work with some of these really, really talented keepers and get different design ideas out there. Maybe there's plenty of room in the manufacturing base to grow and you offer a customer something that they don't necessarily have the time. Maybe they have more money than they have time. Right. Yeah. And I mean, definitely, I guess the other, the other thing I would kind of bring into this is aesthetics, you know, and like you said, maybe it doesn't turn out this the way, but I guarantee nobody else has a cage that looks like mine, you know, even with the crappy paint job,

you know, and you got kind of a touch of what, what you want in it. And I can always, you know, re redo the paint job if I, if I really wanted to and, and, and try, try it again or try a different look to it. But you get something that's unique and if you can do it well, like Christy from the natural herb keeper oh man those videos are fantastic uh she she does just a fantastic job of making you know those fake rocks but even i heard her talking on a podcast where she said um there was one that she went to the actual habitat and realized that the cage that she made was way off and she needed to redo it you know because it didn't look like she wanted it to it didn't look like she wanted it to,

or it didn't look like the environment that, you know, that the animals lived in. And so she wanted to redo it to kind of have that slice or that, that, uh, piece of nature. So you can remember, you know, the, the experience you had in the wild, seeing that animal or whatnot, and then seeing that in kind of the natural environment. And I think that's, that's really, you know, what we, what we kind of want is to, to see that animal doing what it would was, um, what it's evolved to do or what it was born to do. Oh, you do. So, you know, I, I just got to point it out because everyone hears my dog. So I was like, I hear your dog this time. Anyway, sorry.

So I like that idea of not just I mean, you go if you go to a reptile show and every table has these, you know, clear displays, towers, you know, the three stack of the clear acrylic displays and they're all filled with ball pythons you go to the next table and it's the exact same thing you go to the next table and it's the exact same thing you know you get get my drip and then you get to the aar table that has the fake rock the the red rock work with the the sign over the top exactly i i help set that up and and tear it down more than once. So I know what you're talking about. So I mean, I like the idea of having something different in your herp room that somebody's going to walk into and not see in any other herp room.

You know, it's kind of cool. Like if you walked into Luke's herp room, that would be impressive. You'd be like, oh, this is awesome. I could sit and look at this. Just like when you go, you know know when we get to go to uh reptolandia in texas you're gonna see these enclosures that nobody's attempted before for reptiles you know maybe for a komodo dragon or something or maybe a croc monitor but like they're putting these eastern diamondbacks in in a room-size enclosure manchins viper in a room-size enclosure, Mankshen's Viper in a really big enclosure.

A Mankshen's Viper deserves a really big enclosure. Yeah, right? Those things are amazing. I think that's what's going to keep at least somebody like me coming back is because you might not see the animal in there. It's big enough and there's enough places to hide. You might not see it, and you might have to come back a few times, spend the whole day there and coming back at different times to see if the animal's out basking or doing something. Yeah. That kind of excites me now, you know, that I guess talking

to Steve and things like that, that's kind of how zoos should probably move to. So it's not necessarily about the people, you know, where's the stupid lizard. I just, you know, I just want to look at the lizard and move on, but I want to, I remember going, well, it's got to, it's got to translate though. You know what I mean? Because where's the stupid lizard is what a lot of people come to the zoo for. I get, I get what you're pointing out. I'm not saying you're wrong, but at some point, you, you know know if you go to a zoo you got to deliver animals right like yeah no one wants to go to a zoo where they can't see you have to deliver animals in every cage i mean obviously you go to the zoo and you don't see some things right you go you go to the cage but then next time you go you might see it and then you're

kind of like oh that's cool that's something new that i missed last time you know so i don't know do we cater to the morons who who think you know everything's a boa or you know like the that don't you know i i don't know that's hard to say i i mean i should say the world caters to morons but you know what are you gonna i mean like you go with the lowest common denominator no you don't cater to the lowest common denominator but but you you don't cater to the lowest common denominator. But you do create a zoo if the zoo is the metaphor that we're speaking of right now. Because you could plop down a big snake in an animal plastics cage and there's no missing it sitting right in the middle of a barren cage with nothing but a water bowl in there. You could do that in a zoo.

And that's what they're moving away from right they had like these almost jail cell like enclosures for big cats i remember our zoo our local zoo in salt lake just had like uh like a battery of these um cement cages with maybe like a little water feature and maybe a big log or something but basically they were they were jail cells you know they were cement and it holds them down and you know but part of but part of part of design and part of of of manufacturing is figuring out ways that that like i was saying to to to to make the animals feel safe make it be able to access hides but still maybe be partially accessible to people or to promote behavior which is going to bring that animal out once a day or you know cause it to exhibit normal behaviors, which brings it out into the enclosure

and forces it to, to interact with its environment. So I think, you know, in, in the zoo world, that is about being really, really good at animal behavior and animal care and, and, and, and translating that into, uh, working with talented people in construction to create an environment, which makes all of those things happen. And if you do that, then, then all of a sudden it's not, you know, how, how many hides or how many places can we make to put this animal and nobody ever sees it to, you know, how, how do we find a real naturalistic play, uh, that people understand, Hey, you're not always going to see an animal, but it's in there.

Oh, I kind of see something there, but the animals kind of just out of view. And then maybe the next time they come, because they come at a different time of the day, they totally see the animal. You know what I mean? I think there's, there's a lot lot there's so much to it and you know i i i think that um that can be part of the benefit of building but but i also think that you know going back to my original argument not everybody can go through all of that. So I think there is levels to the appropriateness of, you know, buying versus building. Right. And I think there can be reasonable ways that people can do things in their own enclosure. We're going back to the eco, you know, foam background things. They're not the, they're not the best. You're right. They're totally not the best,

but are they better than just having four clear glass walls? Yeah. Yep. Yep. And, and, and, you know, you can, you could do like a, you know, you could do, you could buy your eco and then you could do the cocoa wall and you could put your plants in there and let them grow out and i mean there's all there's all it's it's so stratified into how much you want to do and do you know do you necessarily and to you it's really or to to you know somebody it's it's important to them to make that enclosure look like the area of habitat where they went and found that animal. Some people are like, man, I can't even I don't even I don't even know what that habitat might look like or whatever. You know, it's it's more than it means to them.

So, you know, and and maybe they don't have the talent for building those things so you know it buying that stuff or make finding you know ways to innovate that stuff uh and make it plug and play has has some real value to people who want to interact like that but can't yeah Yeah, I would agree. I think I remember Jason Boyce took us to Camo's Reptiles, his place. He's this Australian dude that's just got this. His house is pretty much just like a zoo or, you know, I mean, the enclosures that he's made. For example, you go into one room and there's a coffee table in the middle of the room, but it's actually a glass extension of a whole room cage below.

And the top of a tree comes into this coffee table and you can see like Boyd's forest dragons on the tree and stuff. And so they'll come up the top of the tree. So like the enclosure would be downstairs and you can like look down into the enclosure. That's right. It's crazy. And like he had like, you know, cages that just went into the wall and he would just access and like open the cage and it would be this huge cage that's built right into his wall, you know,

and have like a rock face on it and all these little lizards and stuff. It was incredible. Like it was really that's amazing yeah and see that's and that but but that's a level of construction and a level of commitment to a non-traditional living you know a non-traditional living like most people were like no my house needs to look like my house like i know nobody you know very few people are willing no i mean maybe a lot of people we know are like no i turned my house into a zoo like my house is already a zoo it just doesn't look that awesome right like i get that but but i think you know there's just like most people don't have the building skill to to do that i

remember walking into python pete's kitchen and he had like a wall of cages in his kitchen, you know, this is pretty sweet. And that's where all, you know, a lot of his breeder animals were down in San Diego. So pretty, pretty cool stuff. You know, I think we can all, and, and he, obviously people with, you know, hundreds of animals in a small room are not going to be able to make a giant cage for each one. And these are kind of novelty things. Like Camo's reptile room, it's all like just cages all along the walls.

And they're pretty good size, but they have quite a few animals in them and stuff. And so it's pretty amazing. I don't know how he keeps animals in them and stuff. And so, you know, it's, it's, uh, it's pretty, pretty amazing how he, I don't know how he keeps up with all that stuff. He's got to hire somebody or some buddies, you know, to, to keep up with all that stuff. But, um, you know, you can, you can do certain things and chip away at it over time. You know, like you know i'm i'm very busy as well but i'll spend you know like a an hour after work like i did today i got home from work and i i took all the you know i used the expanding foam to stick the fake rocks to the glass and so i went through and kind of trimmed the edges so it looked nicer then the next step is just to throw a coat of you know tile grout over

the over the rocks you know then the next step is to add another layer so you know hour half hour after work i can kind of knock that out in a cage and you know it takes longer but then at the end i've got i've got a unique product that i've you know made myself and even though i didn't make the exoteric cage i I did the inside of it. So I don't, I'm not saying that you need to necessarily make all the cages and stuff. And you can get things, like I said, those boxes from Uline or something and turn them into a really cool cage pretty easily. But. And I, but I, and I mean, I also think there's just a lot of people who, you know, maybe don't necessarily focus on the rock work or the wall or this, but they focus on proper cage design and what goes into that cage. They're doing just almost little arboretums or whatever in there.

Maybe they don't even put an animal in it. Maybe it's all plants. But I think what I was going to say is I think when you get into the kind of camo size, you have to do that stuff right because when you start putting water in places and and running electricity and like doing all those things like you do that shit wrong you will you could completely fuck your house up like you can cause yourself you know thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars of damage if you don't know what you're doing and so you can do that with commercial caging too i mean like buying a cage with heat heat tape installed or installing it yourself

absolutely burn it down just as easily you know so absolutely and i mean and that's just simple like not adding up the amount of uh of uh you know uh watts you're putting through uh, you know, uh, Watts you're putting through, uh, when you plug into a strip or, you know, like, I mean, there's, there's definitely some, some very basic electricity stuff that'll, that'll do you just as bad as, as, as, you know, some more like a mechanical, you know, piping, piping and water and things like that. So yeah for sure and i tell you you know i'll tell you what that was one of the primary things when we got this new house was i want to design the reptile room to to matt you know to fix all the flaws that i had in my old room and one of those was putting outlets every you know five feet along the wall and i i did and you don't want

them down at the bottom. You want them up a little bit higher, right? Yeah. Almost, almost a head level, you know? And I'll tell you what, I lost the feeling in my fingers for a few weeks from twisting, you know, wires and stuff like that. And I, I wired up a bunch of stuff wrong and then I had to redo it and I messed up my fingers even further, but it's definitely worth it. I have the feeling back now and, and it's fantastic. So I was a little worried there. I'm like, did I just mess up my fingers for the rest of my life? You know? But, uh, it, it's, it's so, it's so nice to have all that, you know, the, all the outlets, uh, all around the room and just

knowing I have sufficient power to, to plug in whatever I need to, you know? So it's, it's been nice. I agree. I agree. Yeah. And I just, I just think that, you know, there, there is a, there's a degree of technical skill and to your credit, you know, once you've done a few cages and you've kind of spent maybe that extra money because you had to go back and redo it or you work it out, you gain knowledge and that knowledge is always yours. You know, I, I, I'm like such a big fan of talking to my kids about gaining skills. Cause once you gain skills, like I will never be unemployed because I have so many skills. It may not be necessarily the job that pays me the most or the job I want to do, but I will always be able to have employment because I'm highly skilled in a lot of different things.

And so learning those skills, you know, that it's such an important part of, you know, just a person, I think. And just that's me personally. I say, think that, but you know, you, you made those mistakes to gain that knowledge. And, and, and now, you know, that money that you spent, that extra money you spent is like an education. You know what I mean? Yeah. We've got a local shop and, and, um, the, I know one of the workers, I work with her husband and she was like, just putting together cages, you know, kind of putting, putting in the decorations and like just getting it ready. Just like basically just to have the animal, you know, and, and, and those, those cages were flying off the shelves. I think they figured they

made like nine grand in a couple of weeks, you know, it's like from just those cages. So, I mean, you can, if you can do it right and you can do it quickly, it can be profitable and help you out. And well, I think, you know, having a, an artistic, you know, where your artistic background meets your, you know, your technical skill and, and your, and your knowledge base of ecosystems and reptile care needs and all these things, if you can translate that and help people, that is filling a service that not everybody has. And so there's a place for just spending your money. You just need to know when you're spending your money the right way or when it may you know just buying something that looks pretty that's not like at all what the animal would it would need or or doesn't function very well like that that's that's not that's not

so great but so kind of hard maybe for for the newcomer or somebody who doesn't have that background to know but you know at the same time, like, you know, it's, you can get yourself in trouble. I feel like if you, if you don't have, you know, some of the technical knowledge you need and you start wiring up electricity or doing things like that, you can, you can burn, you can burn your shit down. You gotta be careful with all that kind of stuff.

But yeah, I don't know. I guess I like kind of having my own touch in things and being able to hopefully reproduce to some extent what I would think they would be doing or what I've seen them do in the wild and that kind of thing. It doesn't necessarily have to look necessarily naturalistic i i think i've talked about this on the pod before but i made these uh did you just call it the pod the fight club pod but i made these like uh um basically reed stacks but they're branches i think i talked about right? Where I have gaps in between the different layers. So it's like they're in a crack in the wood or something, you know, and they can kind of, I believe we called them vertical limb, vertical limb cracks. So, you know, that's, that's just something that, you know, you can kind of think of and,

and try it out. And it's been working cool. Like I was watching them. I've got the camera focused on them. This was for the Gernia depressa, the pygmy spiny-tailed skinks. And I have a camera on them so I can watch them, you know, from work or whatever. So I'm watching them on my phone while I work away. And they're up there using the vertical limb cracks.

You know, it's pretty cool. Yeah. And they're up there using the vertical limb cracks. You know, it's pretty cool. And I guess, you know, I guess where my frustration comes in is you have these big companies, the Zoo Meds, the Zillows, you know, and they have their product lines. But there's nowhere where, you know, Justin Julander's vertical limb cracks are are are you know designed and concepted and and put in it's it's it's just kind of very cookie cutter and i guess that kind of goes to like you know one of ryan mcveigh's kind of arguments about a lot of these big companies they just kind of like you know uh have a line and they go with it and nobody ever questions how appropriate it is or whatever it's just a product that's you know on the shelves every reptile has a four inch log the four inch long half log you know half hollow like what purpose does that serve like it's not

a good hide i mean no it's not unless you pack it with like other stuff, you know, like, but yeah, it's not the best hide. And the materials, like there are literally people taking vector files and making like, like really detailed, like animations that from like when I was a kid in their own 3D printers. Like, I know you have a 3D printer. I just think that our manufacturing technologies, even at a home level, have gotten to such a point where I'm just kind of like, really? This is the best we can do? Really?

And it's like, you know, and obviously like, you know, like a lot of that foam rock work from that company, it's still killing me and I can't think of the name of it. But cool stuff, but it's really expensive. But that's because they're the only people who do it. Yeah, there's not a lot of competition for that. Yeah, if there was competition to drive price down and people were actually doing it on more of a level. But that requires an investment and and time and energy and and devotion and i you know i i don't even think we can get a certain cage manufacturer

to up their production level to bring their their lead times down you know what i mean like i just like it makes me question or just like what are we really doing you know and and maybe that's a point for you maybe that's you point for you. Maybe that's, you know, to your credit of like, I'm not waiting for these people to innovate and make technologies. I'm going to just go out and do it because I'll be, you know, are you thinking the universal rocks? Is that what you're thinking? Yeah. I think that might be what I'm thinking. They have a lot of cool products, but yeah, they're really pricey. I mean, they're expensive. Yeah, very pricey.

But, you know, I don't know that there's other companies doing that. So, yeah, they can afford to be pretty pricey. And I'm sure it's probably not super cheap for them to do that, but it can't be that. It can't be that bad. Once you have the form, it's just a matter of going in and making more, just pumping them out. And I think they're flexible to some extent. You can kind of cut them to the size you need. I think that's what Barczyk used in all his big enclosures.

I think you were the one who turned me on to those things, and that's what you had said was that that bar check had used those things and they were really cool and they were they were kind of you know a little versatile and how you can use them and and uh so that yeah i just i i mean i think that there's stuff out there i just don't think we do a very good job of it um and so i i get i get why people like yourself are like screw it i'm not gonna buy this or wait on somebody to build this stuff or what. I'm going to just do it myself. And again, like I said, if,

if you just have a few animals, maybe it's not that bad. You know, maybe it's not that expensive. I guess I'm thinking, well, if I want to make, you know,

10 cages and I have to, you know, buy a 24 by 24, you know, background for 160 bucks, then that's going to add up real quick, you know, buy a 24 by 24, you know, background for 160 bucks, then that's going to add up real quick, you know, but then again, I mean, that's really not too terrible, you know, and I guess, you know, we need to kind of, I do think there is some merit when they say, you know, we need to be more like the fish community who spend thousands of dollars on their tanks to house a $20 fish.

I think a lot of times we do exactly the opposite, build a $20 cage to house a $10,000 animal or something. But do you think, and I don't roam in the fish circles, so to speak, you know, sir. So but do you think it's like I come over to your house and we're both fish guys and you show me off your setup and that's like your Bolin's Python? You know what I mean? That's your like like the setup is like part of the you know, it's kind of less about the fish, but almost like it is about. It definitely could be that way. You know what I mean? But I it definitely could be that way you know what i think it could be the same for reptile yeah exactly like i mean i think like if you if you come and show somebody here's my single setup and i have a pair of you know anoles in

here and it's like a huge enclosure and and with all decked out with naturalistic you know that would be pretty cool even regardless of what naturalistic you know that would be pretty cool even regardless of what's inside you know you're just like wow that's a i guess that maybe is some of the appeal of reptolandia where it's just the the cages are incredible you know the different uh environments that they've built in there you know so that's part of the part of the enjoyment is looking you know trying to find the animal in the in in the environment and it would be just almost like kind of a little bit of herping you know where you're looking sure well you're you're not just engaged by the animal you're

engaged by the entire environment that the animal and that's i mean i i would say that's part of you know that's part of the enrichment in the experience, which zoos need to do really well, is to invite you in, not just teach you about where they live, their behaviors. All right there. All right there within the four walls of that enclosure, however big or small it is. For sure. Well, you know, there's, there's lots of positives and negatives to kind of building your own things or, or buying, you know, pre-made things. And I guess just the main point is put, put some thought into it, you know, make yourself a little slice of, of the environment where your animal comes from so they can feel at home and kind of perform in the niche that they were, or the nipper, that they were designed to fill. I always forget to say nipper instead of niche. You know, then you can kind of get that slice of the environment in your home.

It's kind of a cool way to do things. Um, enough of this, you know, sterile white wall just kind of, yeah. But I mean, I will say like, I, I, again, I'm going to go back to, to Luke's, you know, uh, uh, you know, uh, graphic that he put on those monitor enclosures. And that's, that's like, what a dude that blew me. Like it blew me away. How, how fantastic that was, but that's a pretty straightforward thing. Like that's not, you know, we're wrapping cars with all of these crazy, you know, final wrap. And, and right there, that's a great, that's a great example of a way to really up your cage game without having to do too much

really expensive construction yeah but that's not the only thing he's got in there he's also got no no 100 yeah and your and your point is well taken but but i guess what i'm saying is for people who you know you know have just a stack of of um you know, you can make those cages pretty engaging. And obviously, he's gone that extra mile, you know, with everything that he does in his cages, and his cages are freaking amazing. But, but, but, you know, that, that idea brought me back to like, you don't have to, you know, go all in to make something that's more engaging or, you know, you don't even necessarily – you can just do Ecotera design or, you know, whatever. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention Brandon Shifflett from Rare Earth. I don't know if you've seen him. Yeah, no, definitely. Oh, my gosh. That guy is next level. Yeah, sick. Yeah. mention uh brandon shifflett from rare earth i don't know if you've seen him yeah no definitely

gosh that guy is next level sick yeah i mean there's there's quite a few out there that just really have oh definitely but man brandon goes the extra mile and just has some killer stuff some amazing you know he's a that's his business right he's's breeding reptiles and he's got these giant enclosures, zoo quality, you know, cool rocks and but also usable space. You know, he's got nesting areas and things like that. So he's he's doing it right. And he's very successful with that and doing very well with the monitors and some of the other, you know, small lizards from Australia. And his his display at Tinley was killer. He was the coolest thing there, you know, just big rock out crop in the middle of Tinley, you know,

with different cages inside, it was pretty sweet. So yeah, I, I guess I, I, I'm not a big fan of the cookie cutter, so I kind of like that personalization whether or not you buy it but just make it your own make it a make it a slice of nature that's my yeah that's my finishing plea i guess sure well and i mean i think you know certainly i don't i i won't argue with that i don't think anybody out there argues with um you know people wanting to create the most top quality, realistic, you know, slice of animal environment, realistic to their natural habitat you can create. But, you know, there's all skill levels, there's all, you know, everybody's situation is different, everybody's experience is different. And quite frankly, everybody's goals may be a little bit different and so you know i well i agree with you um that that you know design and things like that are an important part um you know there's i think that there's there's design in all manner of echelons

in the hobby that that meet more needs, or we can do better for animals without having to go all the way to, you know, creating the, the natural zoo enclosure. I mean, is that awesome? Yeah. I mean, but should you let somebody call you an asshole for not doing it on the internet? No, fuck that guy. You know what I mean? So, um, I think, you know, there's there, you know, people should think about ways to, to do better in their enclosures and, but I don't think there's anything wrong with building and buying. And I think, you know, if, if some of our, our retail, um, you know, manufacturing sectors would, would kind of change up and get away from the fucking half log you know

stupid ass like dead you know uh dead dead tyrannosaurus rex head or the the alligator skull you know it's just like all right whatever like yeah i get it we're you know we got you okay cool you know what i mean like i i think we can do we can do more we can do better and and and so you know i definitely hear where you're coming from i would say that i challenge you know all of those creative people who have great ideas in our hobby to work with really talented keepers and and and do something more for you know um for the reptile hobby as far as making stuff people can buy and make it more plug and play. And I mean, we could really, really, really take things to an interesting level with the type of materials, technology and things that are available that wasn't like that when I was a kid.

So I think that's probably enough of me. All right. Well, yeah. Thanks for listening to us. Yeah, that was rough. I was like, whoa, damn, he cut that off quick. And thanks to our new sponsors, Diet Dr. Pepper and Welch's Fruit Chews. Fruit Chews, that's correct.

Yes. They're delicious. We're really excited about that sponsorship, man. That sweet fruit chew money is just going to come rolling in now, I'm sure. All right. Well, any good content out there you've been listening to this week? Just the podcast, you know, listening to Carpets Coffee, NPR. I have not ventured too far out into the woods, to be honest.

Yeah. So sticking close to home, listening to the guys. Yeah, I did listen to them listen so need to do better the th or thn herpetoculture network uh snakes and stogies and they they talked to derrick tixstra about his uh emerald horn pit vipers and other stuff it was pretty interesting pretty cool stuff that's pretty cool yeah i don't know enough about venomous to recognize a lot of the scientific names they're throwing out there so i had to stop and look them up and stuff but really uh interesting stuff um yeah good stuff they had uh

adam bryce from wild nature on the australian herpetoculture oh Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Listen to his stories about photography and all that kind of stuff. So good, good stuff out there. I, uh, I gotta admit, I haven't, haven't, uh, listened too much to some of the ones I have a feeling I need to listen to some more of the, um, really a Python radio radio network shows but i don't know they're getting so many dude these guys need to calm down a little bit i only have so much time in my day to listen to podcasts and i and i guess i don't i don't get it which is a true which is a tribute to the pod father and all that he does but uh you know man i'm i'm getting i'm getting to the point where

i'm like i can't i can't do all these i'm the same way like i you know i man, I'm getting to the point where I'm like, I can't do all these. I'm the same way. Like, I guess you just do what you can, listen to what you can. And then when it's topics you're maybe not as exactly into, you know, I don't really do Boas or Colubrids. But I have listened to some of those shows, and they're very exciting. So, you know, get on, check out the different the, uh, different podcasts and really Python radio network. And I do like the diversity. I do like listening to something other than pythons once in a while,

you know, and other things. But of course, uh, if given the choice, I'm going to choose pythons first. So keep up the good work boys. All right.

Well, thanks to her. Uh, the, Oh my gosh. Morelli pythons network radio for hosting our podcast and supporting us. We really appreciate you guys, Eric and Owen.

You guys are doing some fantastic work. So looking forward to herping with you in a couple of weeks there, Eric. Um, anything else? T spring patron. Yeah. Check out all their merch.

We got some Reptile Fight Club stickers, mugs. You can represent RFC, support the show. So it'll be fun. I need to grab some of that stuff. Just slap a sticker right on somebody's face. You'll get a fight out of it, I bet. Yeah, probably so. If you hit them hard enough, of it. I bet. Yeah, probably. So if you hit them hard enough for sure.

All right. Well, thanks for listening to reptile fight club and we'll catch you again next week for another episode. Fruit. Chew you, Justin. Thank you. Outro Music