Reptile Fight Club - Reptile Fight Club fights about Anthropomorphism

Episode Date: January 7, 2022

Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to the episode of Red Tile. I'm Justin Schroeder, and with me as always, Chuck, the man, Poland. Say hi to the people. Hi, people. How are you doing, my friend? I am well. I am well. It is a Friday today, so I have my weekend. That's always a good thing. Yeah. I've been stuck in quarantine, so it's all a weekend to me, man.

Dr. Delta. Yeah, I was listening to NPR, the holiday show, and they said something in there that kind of got me. It's like talking about, uh, herp libraries and, you know, we have all these books and if we've read them, you know, and I can, I'm like, oh crap, I've been sitting in here in quarantine for 10 days, watching movies and TV shows, like not reading her books. I'm like, there's plenty of her books down there that I could read, you know? And you know, when I get a book, I'll read the chapters that I'm most interested in or kind of thumb through, but very few of them I've read front to back, you know, cover to cover. So I brought up my reptile or snakes of Arizona, the giant monolithic book for Miko.

If you don't have it, I mean 55 bucks yeah it's it's ridiculously it's pages yeah it's yeah it's and it's a very well done book and i believe somebody somebody on the the holiday show called it a home defense book yeah that was rob i think yeah yeah spot on yeah yeah it's huge it is a big book and it could take out an intruder yeah for sure but yeah so i i got into that started reading it's really interesting i mean i do kind of gloss over some of the taxonomy stuff who you know that stuff's pretty yeah can be a little boring sometimes but also fairly interesting there's some interesting. I feel you there. I've, I've got, I also have the snakes of Arizona. And then I've, I picked up that, that, the, the book called fire that.

Oh yeah. I got that one too. Yeah. And, and I, I, I literally have it next to my bed and I'm just like, I'm like, I should read it. And I'm like, Oh my God, I'm so, I'm so tired. Like during the week, I'm like, I'm so tired. And I'm just, I like turn on the TV for like a few minutes and I'm like, I'm going to bed. I'm out. And I just don't pick up the book. And it's like, and it is crazy too, right?

Like you don't want to feel like, like you went from collecting snakes to just collecting books about snakes. Right. You're like, no, I read this stuff. Like, and yeah, you want to benefit from it and not just have it collect dust on the shelf. Right. Exactly. And you, you kind of feel like you're like, well, you know, experience is great and, and books are great or everything. And, and, but if you're not reading it cover to cover and you're just not in it all the time, are you really

taking the, the gross and, and, you know, maybe you know maybe you're right dude maybe the the spot read uh is is just fine um you know you read what what directly you know um you want to get out of it and and sure you know i um you know i feel like it's dangerous to get new books because i find myself like oh i get a i got a book on cord uh uromastyx and so i had a you know read about a bunch of uromastyx i'm like maybe i want to keep uromastyx but no i don't want to keep uromastyx yeah you know they're really cool there's so many cool reptiles so i learned about them you know i was a little worried about you at the super show i thought i know i was tempted they were they were nicely you were tempted you went back over there like three or four times like yeah you were

i gotta go i gotta go back over there i gotta ask i gotta ask them something there's there's just too many cool reptiles that's the bottom line but i know i don't think it's a bad thing to have kind of that broad knowledge eric was talking about the, uh, keeping and breeding the lizards or keeping, uh, keeping and breeding Australian lizards. Um, that's a fantastic book, but you know, there's a lot of, a lot of groups in there that I probably will never keep or that I don't have a ton of interest in. So I'm not really reading those chapters covered, you know, intensely. I might browse through them or check them out if I see something on a different species that I'm intrigued by, but like I've, I've read all the agurnia chapters and like the, you know, the, the ones, the spiny-tailed skinks or the taliqua,

the blue-tongued skinks and, um, you know, some of the dragons or monitors I'll read through those chapters as well. Cause those are the ones that are interesting. Geckos, lots of geckos, you know, those kinds of things. There's lots of cool, cool species out there, but. And that makes sense as a human, you, you, you, you know, you're interested in what you're interested in and you crave knowledge on those subjects and. And a lot of the books, like, you know, not to disparage against them, but they're, they're just kind of the, um, field guides, you know, and those are helpful when you know, not to disparage against them, but they're, they're just kind of the, um, field guides, you know, and those are helpful when you're, yeah, when you're in Australia and you're trying to identify something, but just to read it, I mean, you're not really, I guess you could

memorize it and be really knowledgeable about, uh, just a little, you know, very fine, you know, shallow depth about a lot of different things, but mainly it's just like a picture and a range map and, you know, kind of most of it's a description of the animal. So if you're looking at it, you know, it might help to identify that animal. But, you know, as far as reading through, it's not the most interesting thing. Some of the field guides now have like, they talk about the different habitats and stuff like that, but I like something with a little more natural history in there. Um, a little more in, in that, um, social lives of reptiles. I started reading that one. I started reading the fire book that you were talking about. I did start reading that, but before I had the holiday show, so I guess I did

start a book, but I only got like a chapter or two in, so I didn't get that far in, but. And there's a lot of kind of introductory ideas in there. And like, I was just kind of looking through the chapters of it and it's, it goes, you know, pretty, goes through some pretty basic ideas, which is, which is good. I mean, that's good. It's helpful. Yeah, absolutely. And I think a lot of these things go hand in hand with some of the podcasts. Like I listened to Francis Baines on, I think it was animals at home network. That, that guy does a great job at his interviews and the people he

brings on and the topics that they discuss. So I, and I think it was kind of, um, his show that might've like, I had the idea for this podcast, the fight club. And then he did a show where he had two people come on and discuss opposite sides of a topic. I'm like, Oh, that's what I want to do. And I think he only did the one. So it's like, okay, well we can still do it. But he, he had a similar idea with one of his, which was really cool to see. It was on. Well, it's good for you to kind of watch a test run, right? Yeah. Yeah. No, it was really a cool thing. So, you so you know there's there's a lot of good books out there i i really like the um stolen world um that's a great great book um really kind of

eye-opening to the early some of the early big reptile guys and the hobby um lizard king was yeah i got that that lizard king right right. I think I like Stolen World a little better. Yeah. So I have not read Stolen World yet. Oh, yeah. So I need to do that. And I think it's pretty cheap. You can get it for not much.

But I think it's more interesting to me because it kind of goes over some of the reptiles that I like. Like he's, you know. Kind of some of the. Yep. Hank Moult and Tom Crutchfield out in Australia. The shifty past of the things that endear us now. Yeah. There was actually an arrangement or something where I think Hank Moult was supposed to bring in some Owen Pelly pythons that were captive bred.

And at the end of the book, they talked about how one of the names that they used in the book was a pseudonym. And then it's like, Oh, I know who that is. Like, and then he bred Owen Pelton by these pythons. I'm like, Oh, there's only one guy that's bred Owen Pelton pythons up to that point. Like, okay, we know who that is unfortunately he uh passed away recently i don't know if you heard no peter kraus passed away i didn't know that which is a huge you know bummer that that guy was he he had some knowledge man that guy was the the bomb but um i met him a couple times the the first time i met him it was at a one of those reptile symposia that i did over in australia and uh. And I sat down by him and I was all excited to talk to him. And I tried to engage him.

Man, he would not take the bait. He was like, hey, how you doing? I'm Justin. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. And then he'd turn away. I'm like, oh, okay. And then I'd ask him another question and he'd give me like a two-word answer and then turn away.

I'm like, okay, he doesn't want to talk to me really. But then after I kind of, somebody vouched for me, I think. answer and then turn away i'm like okay he doesn't want to talk to me really but then uh after i'd kind of um i somebody vouched for me i think i think peter birch vouched for me because peter birch is pretty good friends yeah and then at the next show i saw matt we had nice discussions and and it was he almost reacted to me like i was an old friend, you know, so that was cool. So he, yeah, I, I really feel bad that I didn't get, uh, um, you know, get to know him better, talk with him more, but it would have been cool to see his place in action. And, um, but yeah, what a loss, uh, uh, good guy. Uh, I mean, obviously he was involved with a lot of shady stuff with uh hank moult and things back yeah that was kind of

how it almost went i mean there was just no other recourse you know how i mean how else do you get how else do you get it done exactly get it done that's the reason we have diamond pythons and jungle carpets a lot of you know those people you know mean, it's one of those things where it's like, oh, okay. So, so there's no, there's no importation, exportation here. All right. Well, you either settle for that or you do what you got to do to, to overcome that. And, you know, I'm not necessarily condoning smuggling or, you know, or, nor would be involved with smuggling in any way. Um, but I'm not going to condemn somebody for just as a disclaimer folks. Exactly. No, I mean, that's how I feel. I'm not gonna, I got, you know, pulled in and searched on my trips over back and forth

over to Australia. And, you know, I almost welcomed that because I could say, you know, go ahead and search me. I have nothing to hide. I have nothing. All I have is photos, you know, I almost welcomed that because I could say, you know, go ahead and search me. I have nothing to hide. I have nothing. All I have is photos, you know? And yeah, I might've held some animals when I probably technically shouldn't have or whatever, you know, in the field, but we, we always let them go. We never collected them or took them anywhere or did anything with them. But that was not a snake in your pocket.

You were just asking to see. They made sure that they checked my pockets. And I almost felt like Dwight Schrute, you know, when Michael asked him if he could learn a wire and he like dropped his pants and lifts up his shirt to show he has no wire on that. I thought about doing that. I thought that would be pretty funny, but they didn't. They didn't think that would be. They didn't have very good sense of me. I actually told, I told them they were profiling me and I'm like, I know exactly why you're pulling me in here. And I'm very disappointed and offended by this.

You think just because I like reptiles, I'm going to come and smuggle them. Thanks a lot. Jerks. You know, they're like, oh no, we would never profile. I'm like, oh, you just randomly picked up me and my friend from separate lines, you know, that were on a trip to find reptiles and photograph reptiles. So anyway, that was kind of fun. But yeah, they let us go and we didn't have anything, of course, and, and I told him, I said, look, all the things I want from Australia are already in the U S and being captive bred. So except, except, and I don't have those. Okay. Just so we're clear.

Just so we're clear. Yeah. I don't have a, I don't have the cash for those, but yeah. Nor are they available, but yeah. Some, someday we'll, we'll see. I mean, John Weigelel he found a way to get carinata over here and there's always a way yeah there's always no i i think he he understands like yeah there's a desire for these things outside of australia and and as long as there's no other

legal way to get those out of the country there's always going to be smuggling and that's damaging to the wildlife of Australia. So why not? But I mean, but I mean, is it, is it, is it is smuggling damaging to the wildlife of Australia? I get it coming in. I get it potentially. For some things it could be. Yeah. But I mean, has the, has, has Australia ever introduced non-invasive

uh or invasive species to try and fix something and then they fuck it all up like well and i mean i was trying to export some stimpsons pythons that i had imported from europe back to europe and i had the paperwork that I got them into the country with that they stamped with their little stamp of approval. And then they told me, oh, these are not legal. And I'm like, why did you stamp the paperwork? Like how to, like, why did you let me get them if they're not legal? Like, I just, yeah, I'm like, I do not understand. So anyway, I, and I had gotten permits for Stimson I the year before for Eastern Stimson's and, and they, they didn't really specify Eastern or Western. It was just Stimson I, and I

got it on my permit to export. And then the following year, they're like, no, those are not legal to export. And we're not going to give you. And I said, you gave me a permit last year. Oh, we have no record of that. I'm like, here it is. This is the permit. Well, we have no record of it. I'm like, I don't care if you have a record of it. You gave me one and I exported them. Like, give me a break. I was just like pulling my hair out. And they said, well, we need to do an ecological study to see if it would damage the wild population. I said, how would captive bred offspring have any impact on the populations in Australia? I said, I saw more dead on the road than I want to export to Europe.

Like, give me a break. Like, what are you people doing? And I just like, they said, sorry, we're not going to do it. We couldn't determine if it would be, you know, if it would have a negative impact to the populations in Australia. I said, you guys are beyond help like give me a break yeah well it's just it's just like they make it up as they go i mean you know it's just like it's just like like it depends on whose desk it falls on because the guy the year before gave me the permit no question and that's what i that's that's

kind of how i feel is like is it is it you just grease the right wheel and uh you know it it works out like i mean and and and and honestly like if that's the case if it just takes some grease on a wheel fucking grease the wheel and let's go because otherwise that's the problem is this like well now where they've you know i don't agree with that paper that says everything's children's pythons but heck i'll just export them as children's pythons right technically they are right in the scientific literature it's been said they're children's pythons so they well well sir we don't recognize that well no they recognize a piece of literature i mean you know what i mean it's like the rule is whatever we say. The rule is on whatever day we say it like that.

And that's literally I mean, I, you know, I feel like I feel like I deal with some of that in my job is, you know, people federal workers like to tell people no. And it's like, you know, you go back and you try to find out why you can't do something you're like there's no there's nothing it's just because somebody wants because somebody will have to work to if they say yes to you and rather than say yes to you they just give you some bullshit reason and say no and that's pretty much what it is so we deal with that all the time with our select agent labs in the you know with virus our virus labs trying to we you know there's some um viruses and other pathogens they're listed as select agents so they have huge amounts of red tape and paperwork and you got to follow all these protocols and they come in and um inspect us every

year and they always have something that oh we're doing wrong or that we messed up on. And, and we're just like, well, you know, you know, the best way to handle this for 15 years. And you know, why didn't you see this 15 years ago? You just give them, you just give them low hanging fruit. You just like, give them an easy one, let them write them down, let them shake their finger at you, walk away, you know, strutting and walk walking and just move on with your life. Yeah. They just almost have to justify their own jobs, you know, because it's otherwise. We haven't had any real issues, you know.

There's been a couple of things they made a very big deal of that were not in reality big deals. Well, and if they're making big deals out of small things, then you're doing okay. It's when they're making big deals out of small things, then you're doing okay. It's when they're making big deals out of big things that you're probably doing. It's funny because NIH was the ones that found that vial of smallpox on their shelves in some random lab somewhere. The person retired and they got to clean it out and they're like, there's a vial of lyophilized smallpox i'm like oh okay you know that's that's a good thing to just have out there you know okay well and then but then that triggers like all this different uh you know regulations on everybody else well it's a neat politician in the hot tub with the hookers philosophy, you know, like they mess up. So then they regulate everybody else to that standard.

It's like it's your own people that are breaking the standard. Yeah. Damn you. Damn you, hookers and hot tubs. How dare you? It's those politicians, man. You can't. No, it's.

I don't know. Have you ever been a politician they'll blame it on the hookers yeah yep yeah well is that our show are we done we do we want to get into a fight or do you have anything else we need i just came here to chat about hot tubs and hookers okay Okay. Well, that's why we should change the name of the podcast. Hot tubs and hookers? Dude, we would totally increase our – it would be a one show and done type of thing. They're like, what the fuck is this?

I thought I was going to get hot tubs and hookers. This is wrapped up. What the fuck is this? That would be it. They're talking about snakes what's wrong with you we would have to cut the show down to about 15 minutes and we would get high viewership for one episode only and for like 30 seconds until they figured out yeah yeah that's the that's the sad thing well um let's talk let Okay. Reptile hooker club.

Yeah. How about we talk about anthropomorphism? Anthropomorphism. That's a fun word. Yeah. When you, what is that? When you're giving your reptile, like thinking it's thinking in human terms, is that kind of a good definition? Mm-hmm.

Or putting things in human terms. Is that kind of a good definition or, or, or putting, putting things in human terms, projecting your human, your human needs or wants or biases or, or, or biases. Sure. Okay. Biases is fine. Maybe like, for an example, like you haven't, you know, a Python and somebody, oh, that Python needs to exercise more because it's fat. Well, is it, you know, that's what you would say if a human was overweight,

like, Oh, you need to exercise more, but as an ambush predator, do they really need to exercise to maintain, you know, they're designed to sit still and sit in one place for days or months at a time. So's it though i mean but if what if you're a fat ass snake i mean then feed it less yeah yeah okay all right all right i don't know maybe exercising will get the gut you know yeah the gut factory i mean it's not it doesn't need to do like 80s style jazzercise but hey we're not even fighting yet man what what are you attacking me i'm just saying i'm just saying they don't jazzercise like i agree with you i agree with you i'm on your side no i'm not no i'm not so so we're gonna talk about the kind of what pros and cons of

anthropomorphism or if it's you know okay in some instances like is is anthropomorphizing okay sometimes or if it's always bad or if it's you know always negative oh i heard it you heard the coin you know what's coming all right well i will let you call it in the air and and we'll see what happens. It's tails. It's tails and it's heads. I'm sorry. Damn. Yeah. I said like that, like I own that coin. And he did.

You did. You're very confident. Well, you know, you got cocky after your win last time. So what do you do? Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll take the negative side of anthropomorphism, that it's not the best thing. I'm going to take the easy side, I think. And you can take the anthropomorphism.

Isn't that bad all the time? So I'll let you go ahead and start us out, my friend. Okay. So anthropomorphism not being a bad thing. I mean, I definitely can see a case where anthropomorphism, you know, doesn't necessarily result in anything negative. Um, you know, I think there's probably certain levels of things that, um, you know, oh, my, my snake needs me to hug it because I like hugs and therefore my snake will like hugs. Well, i mean you know we we do like to squeeze i mean come on i do i do agree with that but they usually eat it after they squeeze it that's so yeah if i mean it's a love hate thing it depends on your end goal maybe perhaps um so so them being

squeezers does not mean they like to be hugged, but, but, you know, that said, I don't think that all anthropomorphism is bad. I think, um, oh, I, you know, I like, I, I think my, my lizard likes to sit on my lap and watch TV with me. And maybe you're like, you know, maybe your legs warm and that's not, uh, you know, and it's warmer than the rest of the area around then the lizard is like, all right, you know, I'm not super cool with this cause I don't like to be held cause I'm a lizard and not a human, but, um, you know, this is warm. I'm, I'm not being hurt. Things are okay. So maybe this is, this is okay is okay and and so maybe just the idea that

that uh that the animals will tolerate levels of anthropomorphism i think you know anthropomorphism can be dangerous or it can be grossly benign and so it's kind of at the level that you're doing anthropomorphism. And, and I mean, I, I, I do, I do definitely think though, like if, you know, what's the, what's the point, what's the point of keeping reptiles, right? Why do, why do, why do we keep reptiles? Cause we get something out of it, right? Us as humans. So, so we get, we, if we get something out of of it, now, do we always have to project everything human onto our reptiles? No, but if having a monitor that sits with us while we do something or I feed my monitor every day, you know, from the table because it,

you know, it jumps up on the chair and it's funny because it's like it's eating at the table with us, you know, like I think I think that's fine. You know what I mean? That that's a that's a that's a human thing. Like the monitor doesn't the monitor just wants food. It doesn't care if it's at the table. It just is smart enough to know oh man this idiot's eating if i jump up on the table on the chair right now he'll probably give me some food because that's what he does right so well you know i i would have let it go if it was like bearded dragon but monitor i don't know i think if you've got a monitor sitting on your lap while you're watching tv it's not thinking at all because it's not at its preferred body temperature. I think one of the worst anthropomorphic views that we've had in regards to monitor lizards is that, you know, keeping them, you know, temperatures above 150

degrees or whatever, like a basking spot would kill it. I mean, that was widely held and you had a bunch of monitors that were like lap dogs and everybody's like, oh, my monitor, he's so tame. Look at my tame, tame monitor. And they'd walk around shows with a croc monitor on their shoulder. Oh, he's so tame. Well, get him up to his preferred body temperature and then try to pull that crap and tell me he's tame and happy to sit on your shoulder. He's going to be clawing the crap out of you and biting your face, you know. Right? I mean, you get a monitor up to their preferred body temperature and they are not going to sit still and they're not going to. Now, I'll give you this. Okay.

So, like, in, you know, in their natural habitat, water monitors are very, like, in some cities in Southeast Asia, they're very closely associated with human habitation. They're eating from the trash. They're eating stuff they probably wouldn't normally eat. They're giant, you know, they're, and they're, they're very used to humans walking around them and stuff. And they're not really, but they're almost like a squirrel in the park, you know? And I will say that animals were, yeah, very big squirrel. Uh, like that's an Owen squirrel right there, but anyway, bigger than an Owen squirrel. Uh, like that's an Owen squirrel right there, but anyway, bigger than an Owen squirrel. Um, so anything bigger than an Owen squirrel, isn't that like a, a squirrel squash? Yeah. But I, but I will say like that attitude of like,

you know, they can eat from the table or I can hold them on my lap all the time. It's probably not the best thing for the monitor and it's not something the monitor is choosing. I think they're just going because they're cold and they can't think straight when they're cold. They can't act properly. Once you need a monitor. Are you, are you, are you making, are you making, are you, are you speaking for all monitors right now? I am. I will unequivocally speak. That's exactly what they are saying. Oh, my God. They are not thinking correctly. Well, first of all, hold on. Because if it is, okay.

So if you do set the monitor down on your lap and it's like trying to move away and after a while it just sits there. Okay. So it's not going to be, you know, at its, at its basking body temperature, but there's something between its basking body temperature and probably it's resting body temperature where the sun's not out or it's not basking. Right. So it doesn't necessarily have to sit at a hundred degrees, you know, or, or, you know, I get, I get that.

I get what you're saying, but there's in between. Well, the monitors are not really an in-between. Like, that's why I said I'd give you another one, but I'm not going to give you monitors. Because, like, they're not out when it's cold. Like, they're out when the sun's out. They're a heliothermic animal. And they are designed to run high octane at hot temperatures and like hot basking spots. But why are they not out when it's not warm?

Because it's not hot enough. And they can't get to their preferred body temperature. And there's no point. And they can't fake. And there's no point. And so it's warmer for them to be hidden away. Because they're in danger. Yeah.

Something's going to eat them. I understand that. But sitting on your lap is not danger. Yeah. Unless you're sitting out. You know, unless you're like point unless you're you know you're but to say it's snowing and you got your door open and you're you're sitting there watching it snow with your monitor yeah but to say it's for the monitor and that he's happy sitting there on your lap no he's not that's not what i said i didn't say that he might tolerate it i said it's for it's for it's for you it's for you to sit with your monitor the monitor tolerates it doesn't necessarily

like it maybe it's not at its perfect body temperature i don't think it's when you're done when you're done letting it you put it back in its cage and, and, and it has all of its, you know, it's proper husbandry needs met. Just a little doesn't hurt the monitor in the longterm. And I guess, and that's what I'm saying is, is, is, is long as you're taking care of the big stuff those little types of anthropomorphic interactions or events are not you know long-term detriment detrimental to the reptile yeah that's a good point i mean a point on a on on a on on a group on a genus that you just can't that you you almost just lost your mind on, just making that point too.

Well, and that was kind of the revolution that occurred with monitor keeping and breeding was back in the 90s or 80s or whatever. That's how monitors were kept. They weren't given the correct temperatures because again, we thought that they would die if they had a basking spot of 150. Now we know that they actually probably require a basking spot of 150. Now we know that they actually probably require a basking spot of 150 just to function normally to get them up to their preferred body temperature. And that's not to say their preferred body temperature is 150 degrees Fahrenheit, but that they need, you know, need that intense heat to get to their preferred body temperature. And then they go about their, you know, whatever they need to do.

But before that, we were keeping them with a hot, you know, basking temperature of like 90 degrees. And they were just sitting there like a bump on a log, getting fat. They'd live a long time because they were basically in cryopreservation, you know, too cold to get old. But they weren't really breeding or thriving but since that time you know since we've figured things out a little better see but that's kind of weird to me though like and i'm not trying to debate like the whole monitor thing oh right now it sounds like you are no you're going

down man well okay so if if if what we did if what we learned um was that they you that they need that high 150 potentially plus access to a heat source like that and anything less like 90. And they just sit there like a bump in a log, get fat and live a long time. All of that does not like there sounds like there's something in between that you know what i mean like i i guess i guess the whole like not meet their needs let them get fat but they still grow old a long time and live a long time like that seems a little weird to me so maybe maybe maybe there's a a difference between marginal and ideal and they don't suffer you know gross longevity effects between marginal and ideal right like yeah i guess i can't necessarily say they were living long time or whatever like they were dying of liver failure or something because they were overweight, but they weren't behaving like they would in the wild. Right. And that's kind of,

I guess. Thanks for backtracking on that. I appreciate it. You're welcome. But basically I say is we were not meeting their physiological needs. Agreed. Agreed. Because we thought, oh, they're, they're fine. They're, they're tame. They're happy. They're sitting on my lap and eating pizza from the table or whatever. What's wrong with pizza, dude? For a monitor.

Sorry. If I'm going to, if I'm going to take the anthropomorphic side, I'm going to, I'm going to go all the way. Yeah. Cause they, you know,

they love wheat based pepperonis. They like pepperonis. Tomatoes. Yeah. If they just eat the sausage and pepperonis, you know, they love that they are meat lovers. Yeah. So, you know, I, I think that attitude of like, Oh, you know, I'm interpreting what he wants from how I would be behaving, you know, like, Oh, he's looking at me like he wants food. That means he's hungry. No, that means he's genetically programmed to always find a meal. And if he finds one to take it because he doesn't know when the next one is coming, that's what he's thinking, you know? person and you're watching your monitor and you're keeping it at this 85 degree basking spot and it's

just sluggish and it's not running around and it's not doing things and then for whatever reason you warm it up and and and all of a sudden it starts getting active and you're like wait a minute you know when i'm sluggish it's because i'm not feeling good or i'm not i'm not you know like i'm cold and or and it makes me like you know like tired or whatever but but you know what when it's warmer out and i and i can move around more i feel better like maybe that's what the monitor needs like aren't you anthropomorphizing when you do that yeah i mean if you do it that way yeah i would say so so not in all cases anthropomorphism is a bad thing sure sure but i mean you're missing the mark to some extent because you're you're not basing it on reality you're basing it on your perception so

you might you might get anthropomorphism i guess it's the it's the whole you know i'd rather be lucky than good but you but you can learn. And I think that's why things change is because you're out in the wild observing one. And I think a lot of it is how I live on this podcast. I just want to get that point. You are not lucky at all. Your luck is horrible. That's the only luck there is here.

Maybe I don't even do good fighting you i retract my no no your fights are much better than your coin tosses but i i mean that's that's why you know frank reedy's kind of you know changed the the way we think about monitors in a lot of ways at least for me and there's probably others that figured this out too but um you know list i i listened to a lot of frank's ideas and some were a little you know out there but but the one that really was the you know, I, I listened to a lot of Frank's ideas and somewhere a little, you know, out there, but, but the one that really was the, you know, they need the heat and they need to eat a lot in order to reproduce. And, and, you know, he kind of revolutionized that and demonstrated that they could still live a long time. But I think, you know, a lot of it was people didn't like, you know, and most of the monitors that were imported were like you know nile monitors and savannas and and white black girl monitors you get them once you get a gender and they're yeah

they're gonna whip you and bite you and crap on you so it's like yeah i don't want them to be hot i want them to be this happy little lap monitor so again that anthropomorphic view was not good for the monitor and that resulted in a lot of you you know, untimely deaths or just nonexistence, basically. If you're just sitting there not doing what you were evolutionarily programmed to do, what's the point? You know, why live? And, you know, yeah, you could say, well, the people are getting something out of it. But ultimately, you know, animals aren't there for us, right? We're trying to, to help them. We're trying to keep them in a way that can allow them to behave

like they're supposed to behave. Right. I would dispute your comment about animals are not for us. I would say that this whole, this whole thing is all about animals being for us. Yeah, but there's being for us completely, and there's being for us at the benefit of the animal. So what I'm saying is this was for us that was in no way benefiting the animal, right? Other than maybe a free meal. I mean, there's benefit to the animal, but- You can keep somebody in prison and feed them every day. That doesn't mean they're happy about it.

You know what I mean? So anyway, there were, and I don't know, maybe they're not happy at all. Why are you making judgments about that? That's an anthropomorphism. It's hard to escape, right? There's institutionalism is a thing, but I do think they're saying that Joe's like fun. I'm not saying there's, there's a, there's a, um, I, you know, I guess Kevin McCurley is probably one of the better examples of this with monitors nowadays is how he's socializing

monitors, you know, and has a lot of YouTube videos on that showing how he, how he does it. And a lot of people are saying, oh, these monitors I got from Kevin are pretty easy going. They let me handle them. They don't crap and bite and scratch or whatever. They're, they're a lot more tolerant of me or they'll come and climb up my arm and sit on my shoulder and things like that, you know? So I do think that it's possible to have a good middle ground where the animal's not freaked out every second thinking, you know, oh, this guy's

going to eat me or whatever. And, and they're also kept at appropriate temperatures and and you know their natural history requirements are met um and i think that's that's a you know a line that we're shooting for right where we get in we we get enjoyment out of it but the animal also does now you can keep reptiles like you keep fish where you don't interact with them other than to observe them or watch them. And you just want a slice of Australia in your, in your living room, you know?

And I mean, that I think you can get enjoyment from that. I think that, that example you gave about Kevin McCurley, you know, basically working with his captive bred monitors to make them more social. One. Yeah,

absolutely. That's, that's like, that's kind of a thing and i i think you know to the degree of like how social are monitors like some are pretty social some are not so social right um define social well i mean i i would like Ackie's do fairly well in groups, right? They do much better. Whereas like, I don't, do Perentis hang out in group?

Like Komodos tend to kind of hang out in groups a little bit. So I would say like some animals are, or some monitors are a little more social than others. Well, Komodos hang out in groups, you know, when there's a carcass. When they're killing stuff yeah they're just cruising around they'll eat their own species you know they'll eat juveniles of their own whatever they can hey co-op to grow up so a parent is you know that yeah sure sure sure sure but but i guess my point my point being that you know so you're you're kind of anthropomorphizing a little bit to say like, all right, I want this monitor to be social with me, crawl up my arm, hang out on my shoulder, do-do-do, look at me, my monitor likes me, hangs out with me. using socialization techniques in order to kind of structure anthropomorphism. And, you know, maybe we're bending the definition of what anthropomorphism is then a little bit.

But, you know, I mean, I just I generally think most people when they think or when you talk about anthropomorphism, take it as a net negative thing. It's something that you do that is entirely human that works against the animal. And I, you know, I think trying to argue for anthropomorphism, you know, I, obviously you can see the argument I'm trying to make, but in the context of the word anthropomorphism, it's generally always a net negative because it's anthropomorphism. Anthropomorphism would be a positive. The definition of anthropomorphism almost leads you to a negative no matter what, right? So I what right so yeah i don't i i i think i think you can totally find great examples of of you know negative anthropomorphism you know in the plentiful oh yeah let's let's talk about dressing

up our reptiles to wear a top hat or or a mustache or something let's boop the snoot yeah yeah i mean that just just leaves a bad taste you know i can't and you know man like honestly so what like i mean does your snake does your okay does your snake like it no but does your snake benefit from being captive bred and born and living without predation and having clean food source and being well taken care of. And yes, the motherfucker may have to wear a hat once in a while and get it. It's it's snoop booped. You know, look, Owen will have his pound of flesh.

He'll be rolling in his grave. No, he doesn't listen to other podcasts. He only listens to his own voice. The soothing sounds of Owen McIntosh. The sounds of Owen Mcintosh that i feel like that's like a slow jazz album in the making right there the smooth slow sounds of owen mackintosh but but i i just i don't you know i mean i get it like when we see it as as people who take ourselves probably too seriously in reptiles we're like that is the most ridiculous shit I've ever seen. Who does that?

The animal obviously doesn't like that. Well, okay. But what, why do we keep snakes? Because we like snakes. And if we can make a snake look cute and people laugh, Oh,

ha ha ha. That Tic Tac so funny. He's got a hat on. Ha ha ha. Look, somebody drew arms on him. Ha ha ha. Like, you know, so what? I mean yeah you know we hate it it might make them look less like a monster to some people that

absolutely think snakes are monsters you know and then they see a hog nose in a top hat and they're like well maybe they are kind of cute maybe they're like look at that stupid monster redeeming qualities look at that cute little horrible thing. Kill it. Kill it now. Yeah. I, you know, I, I, I appreciate that, uh, that view and I'll, I'll, I'll give you points for that one. I mean, yeah, definitely. Um, you know, all anthropomorphisms aren't necessarily harmful. And I think that's the, you know, that's where we need to figure out where the line is and draw that line. And I, and I think the monitor thing is a great example of that, where we determine that, okay, this is not working for the monitors. They're not behaving like they would in

the wild. What do we need to change to get them to behave that way? And then we go, okay, now that they're behaving that way, who wants to keep them? You know, like, wow. And so then they need to maybe adjust for other things like, okay, we need to make them social or we need to keep them, you know, like, wow. And so then they need to maybe adjust for other things like, okay, we need to make them social or we need to make them. So they're not wanting to kill us every time they see us. And, you know, I don't necessarily think that's anthropomorphism because like I said, you know, the example of the Southeast Asian water monitors, they're, they're used to human inner, you know,

presence and people walking around in the parks and they're not like going out and tail whipping them. I mean, I do kind of think there is some anthropomorphism there right yeah but i mean like okay so you want your monitor to interact with you right and and you had this wild caught water you know uh now monitor right and when it's cool it's fine and it interacts with you right so you're like oh that's what i want so keep it cool got it right we're versus you warm it up and you're like holy shit this thing is scary and it wants to kill me and you get work with you're like okay maybe i get a captive bred one that has been worked with

and it's now now it's socialized and it's not trying to kill me, even though it's now it's being so, so, so in the instance where, uh, anthropomorphism can be bad, but if, if the, the issues around why you're, you're directing the anthropomorphism are corrected and you implement new things like like you know socialization techniques and things like that all of a sudden the anthropomorphism isn't necessarily bad yeah from as long as it's not damaging to the animal yeah yeah so so so you can see an instance where anthropomorphism oh my god anthrop, anthropomorphism, definitely bad. Keeping an animal at sub-dopper temperatures because when they warm up to their preferred body temperature, they're like murder, death, kill, right?

Versus socializing and acclimating them and breeding them in captivity. And down the road, you get something that is a far cry from that wild. Yeah, but you're not letting the anthropomorphism dominate your reason and the methods for your madness, right? I don't know. No, no, listen up. All right, all right. You're observing them in the wild and saying,

this doesn't match what I'm seeing in the wild. And so you say, something's off, you know, these guys aren't living long. They're getting fat. These things I see in the wild, they're not fat. They're, they're sleek. And they're, and so, you know, and then, and then you're saying, okay, well, when I grab, you know, when I try to handle the monitor, um, he rips me apart. Well, how are you grabbing? I mean mean are you grabbing it by the neck and the tail and lifting it you know of course it's gonna you know freak out if that what would you do if somebody tried to pick you up like that you know it depends on how big they are if they're really big they may be able to do it and i can't do a whole lot yeah you could do it

but you're not going to be happy about it no definitely not you i i would i guarantee you're gonna crap on them that's you know and so you know you have clearly pinned my tactic i have i have just visualized this many times like if somebody grabbed shack i guarantee no projectile projectile pooping that is my and so that is my secret weapon maybe also observing in the wild you you might get an interaction with a monitor if you're feeding them in a park or something you know people do that and they come right up to you sometimes they're a little aggressive like give me food you know and they're climbing up your leg or something and and if you don't be talking about people in the park are we talking about monitors okay all right i was like damn i'm gonna go to your park bro that sounds aggressive i mean, you might get some aggressive people asking for food some places.

So these monitors are used to people and they see them as a food source. And same with like monkeys or something. If the monkeys can startle a tourist, they can usually get away with grabbing like they're holding some food. The monkeys will grab it and run away with it. And the people are like, Whoa. So sometimes they're, you know, they can, humans can get outsmarted by the animals. The animals can think and, and reason. And so I think as long as we can, um, understand that, okay, according to their natural history, if they're up to temperature, if I grab him by the neck and the tail, he's probably not going to be happy about that. But if I feed him, he sees me as, and I put my hand under him instead of on, you know,

grabbing down on him, maybe he'll let me pick him up. And if I do that over and over and he sees, okay, this is not a threat to me, I'm not being hurt. Then, you know, then you're, you're working with the natural history of the animal and you're fulfilling your anthropomorphic need to interact with the animal, but you're not letting it be guided by anthropomorphism. You're letting it be guided by the natural history of the animal. And so, you know, I think that's kind of more of the way we solve these issues and how we have these anthropomorphic interactions is through, you know, understanding the animals in a more natural history basis.

Yeah, I agree. I agree with you. I'm sorry. I just, I just had this image of a monitor being like, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is not how you handle me. Would you just please? Tickle my chin first. Would you please just take care, care and and exercise my natural history

at least buy a least buy at least buy me a meal before you pick me up buddy come on oh man yeah no no now you're anthropomorphizing for sure come on so no i i yeah i hear that i guess i hear that i i mean i'm trying to think you know other damaging you know i i think the big one is that overfeeding thing when you think oh he's hungry look at him look at me he with those puppy dog eyes he really wants to eat well if you've like you're you walk in if you have a green tree python they're always looking at you like that and in the wild they probably eat maybe once a month or twice a month but they're always looking for you like that. And in the wild, they probably eat maybe once a month or twice a month, but they're always looking for food and they climb up and down a tree every day to, to

find food. And then when they do find food, if they get a meal, they disappear for several days, you know, and they don't come back up and down. And so there, you know, you might get that in captivity, but if we're keeping them really hot and you know, that's kind of the things, you know, you might get that in captivity, but if we're keeping them really hot and, you know, that's kind of the things, you know, oh, I want my animal to get big so it can make eggs for me. That's, I think that's a damaging anthropomorphic view of it's here for me, you know, it's here to make me money or to make me babies or whatever, you know, and that can be a damaging view, anthropomorphic as well. So would you say that reptile breeders are highly anthropomorphic? Oh, oh my goodness. No, I think anytime you're, you're equating something with money, that's a, that's definitely a human view. Animals aren't there going, how am I going to make more money? How am I going to, how am I going to pay the bills? Oh man, I I'm, I'm worried about this month. I'm just

coming up short. i told you this was going to turn into reptile hooker fight club man the hookers are expensive these days i gotta i gotta make some cash yeah and you know they're that those uh rock out crops you know they're not cheap they're not cheap they're not well so yeah I mean, I agree. I think that – I don't know what I think anymore. No, I mean – Oh, come on, Chad. Come on. I'm just – I just – I think that there's so many examples, I think of, I mean,

I think you can look at, um, you know, when animals like we try to feed them, they're, they're not trying to feed, they're stressed out. And, and what do we do? Oh, let's, you've got to throw this at it. Try this, do this, do that, do that. Rather than like, Oh, the animal's not eating because it's fucking stressed out like, or maybe it's sick or maybe it's so you know i i definitely think there's you know there's there's multiple multiple ways that we anthropomorphize that are you know are are deleterious to the

longevity and life of reptiles but i don't I don't necessarily think that all anthropomorphism is, is, you know, detrimental, uh, in the long run. Well, and to your point, I mean, we, we have to use our brains to figure out some things and we can definitely make, you know, miscall natural history. We can definitely miscall what an animal needs based on what we think it needs, you know, miscall natural history. We can definitely miscall what an animal needs based on what we think it needs, you know, based on what we interpret its natural history to be. So, you know, it's, it's really hard to get away, I guess, if you consider that anthropomorphism, because you're looking at it from how you would expect it to work, even if it's completely off base. But, you know, we definitely need to use our- But I don't you know we but i don't think that's i don't think

that's i don't think that's anthropomorphism though if you were looking at it from how you think it would work for you that's anthropomorphism yeah i mean right i mean because it's about projecting you why are you interpreting it that way you know it's probably projecting you into the animal. Why are you interpreting it that way? It's probably because that's how you would think if you were in the situation. I don't know. It's hard to say. It's hard to know what an animal thinks. And so are we thinking along their wavelength? Are we thinking along our own wavelength?

Of course, we're thinking along our own wavelength because it's the only wavelength we can think along. Right. Except for maybe- Unless you can get right on down to that. Yeah. Well, I think Frank was, he's more, he thinks better as an animal, I think, in some ways than a human. Yeah, his human skills are a little lacking, maybe you could say. But, you know, he's got a lot of enemies.

Anyway, that's the trick, I guess, is to interpret natural history. We should just call them non-friends. That's a much lighter way to say it. That's a very anthropomorphic view. I think you need to look at the natural history. I just need to respect my natural history. Yeah. I guess overall, if you're guiding what you're guiding your, what you're trying to do with your animals

and, you know, I don't know, I think there's a lot of different ways to, to look at it. You know, we could say if you're, if you have to handle the animals all the time, that's maybe an anthropomorphic, you know, objective and that's maybe deleterious to the animals. And for some animals, it might be. For others, it might not be. My cousins had a veiled chameleon that was very used to handling, you know, and it would just sit and, you know, sit in their living room and eat and be happy. And from what you could tell, it was a very well-fed. It seemed happy.

It had a big smile on its face. You know, it's, it's very difficult to not anthropomorphize things. Right. But you were your best frame of reference, right? Yeah. It didn't, it didn't try and try and bite them all the time. It didn't, you know, try to get away all the time. It just kind of sat there and maybe it was, you know, I don't know, overwhelmed or the cortical steroid levels were so high that it couldn't even function,, you know, I don't know, overwhelmed or the cortical steroid levels were so high that it couldn't even function, but you know, it lived quite, it lived a lot longer than I, it was just fear the entire time. Cause I mean, they said, Hey, we got this failed chameleon. What should we do? And like, Oh, we're handling it all the time.

And I'm like, don't handle it so much. Like I'm trying to give them, you know, what I think they should be doing. Whatever your natural instinct is, don't do that. Chameleons are not the touchy feely pets or whatever, but this one lived longer than I thought it, you know, a male veiled chameleon should have lived, you know, live five, six, seven years or whatever. And I'm like, that's, that's not bad, you know? And, and it seemed, yeah, they, they were fulfilled with its life and it seemed to have

a long and relatively reasonable life and they paid a lot of attention to it. And so, you know, is it the animal adapting to our needs? Maybe sometimes. Sure. Yeah. But was it kept probably the best way to meet its natural history needs? Probably not. And are any of us keeping our animals the best way to meet their natural history

needs? You're probably not. You might be, but I don't know me and the rest of us, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll aspire to Chuck level at some point, but no, I mean, you're, you're, we do the best we can, right? Sure. And in some cases we don't do the best we can. In some cases, sometimes the best we can sucks some cases sometimes the best we can sucks sometimes we're just trying to shove them in the smallest box as possible and get as much money out of each animal as possible and i mean you know that's the unfortunate side of things i guess sometimes shoving them in the smallest box possible is what is the best thing

for them because they're so flipped out by like so i mean it's like i don't know man it is a tough it is a tough thing and and i i i absolutely think we anthropomorphize stuff and and the whole keeping of animals is is for us it's for you know otherwise it's like yeah it. It's very human centric. And so, you know, the way we... Is it anthropocentric or is it anthropomorphic? Well, it's both. It's both. It's both. So it's anthropocentric because that's what we desire, but it's anthropomorphic because we elicit certain behaviors that we need because we keep those animals. Like I want to feel like this animal recognizes me or wants to hang out with me or whatever, you know what I mean? And, and,

and, and to be honest with you, it feels out of the relationship that we are, you know, sure. It's happy and I'm happy. So we're, and, and if, if, if, if we're keeping animals, why are we keeping them? Because we get some anthropomorphic something out of it. Like if you just got nothing out of it, why would you keep them? Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, a lot of times you don't get a lot out of like a python.

They don't do a lot, you know. They'll crawl around but you but if you're yeah you want something like that in your in your life because you like to watch it and it behaves differently than you and that's you know your desire to kind of um you know have something that's different from yourself and and that you can behave so you know watch something uh live its life that is so different from yours that's all your want all your need all all you that's all you does the snake want that no the snake does not need that yeah you know what i mean so so and i get it it's not it's not like, I get that's a little bit of a bendy. It's a little bendy, but you get, you get what I'm saying. Like, um, and, and, and so I, I, I, I guess where I'm kind of going, if, if I'm going to, if I'm going to do my wrap up, uh, is that, you know, I think that, that anthropomorphism does jump into even the keeping, the breeding,

the everything that we do with reptiles. It's when we fail to engage with the animals in an articulate way that we understand that these animals are different than us. They biologically are different from us. Their needs are different from ours. And when we, you know, when we elicit our own needs, like how we exist as humans on them, it's not a good outcome. We need to engage in, in the needs that they have and keep them like, like, like you keep, uh, uh, something, you know, like the example I gave her the monitor where you, you know, you, you correct, you correct the husbandry. And then all of a sudden the thing is much more lively and then

you teach it to, to be a little more social and that allows you to interact with it then you can have uh a non-detrimental anthropomorphism right it's you know you're you're you're yes it's not what the animal wants but it's being kept as a pet like and it's it is getting some benefits from being with humans, um, from a predator predation, from a, a longevity of care, you know, things like that. Um, so yeah. Cool. Well, I gotta go. My geckos, if I don't give them their snuggles at night, they just can't get to sleep. So come on, give it up. That was good. great that was great that was great you know what don't force me to laugh at your human jokes yeah that was definitely an anthropomorphic joke yes yeah lizard just don't get it i tell them you know all the time yeah because all my geckos look at me

like oh shit is this motherfucker gonna try and come in this cage because i'm running for it i'm out of here mine are always like food food are you gonna i have i have i have one man i have one male uh grandus that like will just sit there and i can go in there and i can pet them and like i can even try to pick it does not does not care yeah every single other gecko i have is like fuck this we're out of here and they'll they'll bolt man and that's another i mean it may be an anthropomorphism but we um you know there's individual attitudes and individuals definitely yeah and that's you know evolutionarily beneficial if you have different, different ways of doing things. And it kind of goes to like, it kind of goes to the idea that, you know, maybe not all

anthropomorphism is bad because some animals tolerate that anthropomorphic, whatever way better than others. Cause there, there are, they are individuals, right? So I guarantee there's probably some water monitors out there that are like, I'm not getting around people. I'm out of here. You know, there's too many people and they clear out and go live in a primary forest somewhere where human hand hasn't touched it. You know, if there is such a place anymore, but you know, they're, they're out of there. So yeah, for sure. Oh man.

I remember, um, in Singapore, I got to go to the Singapore zoo when I was at a work, you know, a virus conference in Singapore. And, uh, by the way, that zoo is freaking awesome. It's one of the coolest zoos I've ever been to. But, um, I was, I was asking if there were, you know, one of the zoo workers, I asked him if there were any monitors that were wild on, you know, on the zoo grounds. And they're like, I'll go check down by the botanical garden. So I go down the botanical gardens and there's like a couple, um, spitting cobras like under this rock. And I'm like kind of going sideways to try to get closer to get some pictures of them. You know, one was in shed and it kind of stuck its head out and stayed out for a picture or two, but the other one was like gone, you know, it was on the other side of the same

rock. So I'm walking, I'm like, Holy crap crap that's so cool to see wild cobras you know that was the first wild cobras i'd seen and then i go over and and then it spit in your face i wished i was trying to like you're trying to elicit yeah you're like like i said i was moving sideways so my i wanted it to come out and at least hood up or something, you know, but it was like freaked out and sketched out and took off. But, um, and then I, you're an ugly dude, man. You probably scared the hell out of it. I see this, uh, monitor across the way.

So I go run over there. It's a clouded monitor. Uh, and so I start following in it and taking pictures of it and stuff. And it runs up a tree and scares like a flying lizard, a Draco. Yeah. It jumps and glides to the next tree over. I'm like, holy crap, this place is so cool. I run over and I'm taking pictures of this Draco lizard and it starts running up the tree.

And there's another Draco up above it. And they start like doing this little combat, you know know flaring their goler folds and like you know stretching their wings out to look tough to the other one and the one chases the other one off and then i hear this big crashing in the undergrowth and there's a bigger monitor like running up this like um culvert like this uh you know uh waterway that's like uh um cement waterway and so i go chasing after it and i jump down and it's like whipping me and like getting mud all over me and i'm like this is so cool and so yeah it was pretty pretty sweet so that was that was a neat place and then the zookeeper came over and was

like sir you need to get out of the exhibit these are all wild on the ground you don't work here but i the lot of the uh exhibits were actually like open like yeah animals completely accessible like you're just you could touch the animals like i was i was in this uh big um like arboreal arboreum or whatever you call them the buildings where they have trees and stuff inside and they had a bunch of lemurs just running around and like i was sitting down on some stairs taking pictures of like some fruit bats that were flying around and these lemurs ran by and like one bounced off of me and like kept going i'm like holy crap this is a cool zoo you know like they if this was the u.s they'd have so many lawsuits on no and that's that's exactly what i was just thinking it's like do the do the people there they just like let the animal they're not trying to like like you know you see the the youtube video of the lady who walks up to

the buffalo and like uh in in like yosemite and like gets fucking ran over by the thing like what were you thinking yeah how did you think that was gonna end that's what was that lady that got the the buffalo caught her belt on its horn yeah she's running her dragged off pantsless and the buffalo runs away with her pants on its horn like oh my gosh she's so lucky she's lucky she's anthropomorphizing like it can be dangerous to be anthropomorphic well done justin well done me yeah oh god he wants me to cuddle with him he's a cuddly but you weren't you weren't you weren't anthropomorphizing you were just trying to you were just trying to get some pictures. Oh yeah. I was just chasing a lizard, a big old lizard, the biggest lizard I'd seen. I think that was my first wild veranid was in Singapore. Yeah. It was pretty fun.

Not to be your last. No, no, no. I've seen a few. Yeah. I'm trying to think of, I can't remember my count, but I was making my way through the Australian verandas. Have quite a few of those. You haven't had a chance to grab a parenti by the tail on the neck. I have. Have you? But I didn't, I didn't take that opportunity.

Yeah. I just sat and took pictures of the thing, you know, and. Probably a good call. Yeah. We did pick up a. Although I wish I, I wish I could have, if you would have, I would have loved to hear the story. No, no. We picked up a big panoptes, man.

That was like. So, yeah. We were driving along a road in Western Australia. And I went to pass a semi, this road train. And it had like three freaking trailers on it. And it just kept going and going. And so, I'm in the middle of passing this thing. And I've got Steve and mike in the car and all of a sudden there's a road train headed right for us and i don't have time to make it so i'm like oh crap and so i pulled off onto the

shoulder which is you know feels like the right shoulder to pull off to if you're driving in america yeah you know you're on the other side of the road passing a road train and steve and mike are like looking at me like, dude, you almost killed us. We almost died in the middle of Western Australia. And so not long after, I think we might have even seen it after we pulled off, but there was this big old Panoptes monitor walking along the road. And so we jump out and chase it. And it takes off and we're all, you know, running

after this thing, just giggling like little kids, you know, and we, we catch up to it and like Steve, it kind of goes into this brush and Steve's like, um, Steve grabs it by the tail. And I'm like, he's like, grab it, grab it behind the neck. I'm like, you grab it behind the neck. This thing is huge. Like it's going to take my arm off. And I'm like, okay, one, two. And I, you know, I grabbed it by the neck and it was not happy. It was like trying to bite me and, you know, very, very unhappy. Yeah.

And it was a boy. It let us know. Oh yeah. Everting and, you know, crapping on us and stuff. But, you know, we took turns getting our wanker shots and then they, we let him go. And after we let him go, like he tripod, you know, stood up on his hind legs and was like mouth open. And man, that thing had muscles like, oh my gosh, like a bodybuilder. They were huge, just ripped lizard, you know? So there's an anthropomorphism. But, um, yeah, that was, was yeah there's been a couple instances

of that where it's like okay grab it was that the first time you almost killed steve in australia i know there was more than one time yeah the second time was a little later yeah we'll have to tell that story sometime yeah both stories are good i like that yeah there's just some i mean yeah we we get a lot of it's a it's seeing animals in the wild there's just nothing oh yeah for sure it's really cool and we try to approximate that in our cages and stuff but no it's not the same thing no yeah and to watch that thing run off you know after we'd interact and there was another one so on a a separate trip, when I went with Heidi, my wife, um, we were in, uh, just a little further South from where that happened. Um, and we saw a big panoptes walking

along and, and we actually, I saw it on the side of the road and I'm like, that was a huge monitor. And so we turn around the car and go back and I, it was gone. I couldn't see it. I'm like, oh, I swear he was right here. Like, where did he go? And so we kind around the car and go back and I, it was gone. I couldn't see it. I'm like, Oh, I swear he was right here. Like, where did he go? And so we kind of pulled off the road and just watched and just waited. Cause we were waiting for the sun to go down or whatever. And, and I'm like, what else do we got to do? Let's, let's watch this monitor lizard, you know?

So we, so we pull back a little bit and sure enough, he comes out from under this bush and, and he's gone chowing on this DOR kangaroo, you know, on the side of the road. And so we kind of pull up a little slower and he, I guess he thought we weren't a big threat. So he just sat there chewing on this kangaroo, but he did definitely hold still. And they're very, like, even when you know where they are and you're looking right at them, they're hard to see, you know, in their natural, natural habitat. And so we just sat there and watched him for a bit. And then I got out of the car and I'm following him around, you know, taking pictures and stuff. And he kind of hissed up a little, kind of stood up a little, you know, like looking all tough, but, uh, yeah, that's, that's, you know, he can be intimidating.

The other one was, uh, when we were with Peter Birch in his home, you know, where he lives. And we saw this Nick and I and Peter, we were walking around and saw this huge lace monitor. It was a big, big old lace monitor. And we're getting, you know, it's letting us get pretty close to it. It didn't see us as a threat at all. It's like, yeah, come on in. Come on over here. I'm like right next to it.

And it's just kind of like giving you that side eye, you know, like I see you, you better not mess with me. Are you stupid? What are you doing right now? Yeah. And so, and so Peter's like, grab it, grab it. I'm like, no, I don't want to go to the hospital. I want to be on this trip. And, and so he, he went over, he's like, I don't know, I have to do everything. He picked it up. And so then the wanker shots weren't as cool. But then later on, I think it was even on a different trip. Yeah, it was with Steve and Mike. We went up, we went to Peter's house before we went to Western Australia and we saw some, uh, lace monitors and there was one,

he grabbed it by the tail. He's like, okay, grab it. And I'm like, okay, time to redeem myself. So I grabbed it and by the neck and we got, it was a little smaller than the other one, but yeah, what do you do? So that was pretty fun. Frankly, I prefer just to follow them around, you know, like watch them. There was one in, um, North Northern Queensland, a lace monitor, just beautiful. It was really dark black and just really had a nice pattern. And I just, I just followed that thing around as long as it would let me, you know, and taking pictures and video and stuff. And, and after it's had, it had enough, it just kind of ducked out. And I left left my kids i had three of my kids and i took

off following this monitor i'm like i'll be right back and i followed it like 45 minutes later i show up they're like where have you been we've been sitting here in the jungle for 45 minutes wondering if you're dead or whatever i'm like sorry guys i really wanted to see that lizard it's kind of funny that is funny i do like to chase around monitor lizards but what do you do that's fair that's fair i just want to say that when they're colder it's easier it is it's much well in a burrow yeah well when it's colder fair enough yeah fair enough right well good discussion, my friend. Yeah. We covered it all. Do you have anything else to add?

Are we good to go? No, I think we're good to go. All right. Well, we'll have a few more shows before the end of the year. Yeah. It'll be nice to have a little Christmas break. I guess I just had a COVID break. Yeah.

That was a lot of fun. Yeah. But you got good plans for Christmas. die did you die i did not die i did not go to the hospital i attribute that to vaccination but that's that's just my humble expert opinion as a virologist what do you what do you got going for uh christmas you going anywhere are you sticking uh nope we're sticking around um yeah just um probably not too much i i feel like uh i got geckos that are probably gonna be christmas geckos getting born i i had a a standing eye uh day gecko uh that hatched today so i've got another one from that egg. There was two eggs and then there's,

there's two more behind that. And then there's two more behind that. So I'm hoping, I'm hoping that, uh, you know, it's a, it's a standing eye Christmas.

That would be, that would be awesome. Yeah. So I've, I've pretty much, I've gotten, do they lay their clutches that close to each other? Uh,

so I have multiple, I have multiple females. Oh, okay. So yeah. Yeah. Do they, do they do the month thing or like every 30 days or no,

definitely not. Um, I guess each type has different, I don't know. It's weird. So, uh, you know,

from talking to other people, you know, people get like maybe two, maybe four eggs a year, but I mean, I've read that they'll maybe two, maybe four eggs a year, but I mean, I've read that they'll lay up to like 12 eggs a season a year. So it's like, it's like, I feel like maybe there's something that we're missing, um, or, or maybe I'm missing or maybe, you know, I don't know. Like, I don't, I, it would be interesting to talk to people who have had,

you know, prolific success with standing eye um but yeah we were uh cruising around with peter birch and and found like this uh like cache of gecko eggs like yeah lifted up a slab of rock and there were like 60 eggs under this slab like must have been the right place to lay your eggs yeah it was pretty cool yep um and there were a lot of the what were they oedura um reticula some some little oedura they were kind of a smaller pelvic gecko but kind of cool yeah well and i mean you know once they once they kind of find that spot that works that they don't go back there religiously so yeah yep so yeah give them a give them a good spot maybe that's what they need so i got a bunch of new uh eggs from my um leptodactyl is lubricus the nice morning geckos

yeah so i gotta i don't even know if i'm saying the scientific name right. Well, I'll sick nipper on you. He'll sick niche on me. Niche? Yeah. I did hear him use that on the holiday show. Oh, he pretty much got it. Yeah. No, no.

It was on the THP podcast. I was going to say, because I didn't hear him. I didn't hear him. I don't think it was on the thp podcast i was gonna say because i didn't hear him i didn't know he was on the holiday show yeah he didn't which if you haven't listened to the holiday show listen to that and also the thp episode i think we already said that but yeah listen to that it's good stuff lots of good stuff out there lots of good content but the holiday show is fun it's always fun we i mean we our podcast is the third most listened to podcast on the npr network crazy yeah thanks thanks you guys for uh putting us close to the top we got to take over that darn australian that's tough man that's coming for you guys yeah it's a good podcast i've given them plenty and loafman's coming for us all so yeah

all right well i just got a low battery warning and i don't know so we better wrap this up before it wraps up for me so yeah good discussion my friend all right we will be back soon for another episode of Reptile Fight Club. We appreciate you listening and check us out next week. Anthropomorphize on. so Thank you. you