Reptile Fight Club - Reptile Fight Club takes on Billy Hunt Regarding Working for Pros.

Episode Date: April 15, 2022

In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the topic of working for pros vs. learning on your own with Billy Hunt.Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Thank you. Welcome to Reptile Fight Club. We've got a good one for you tonight. I'm Justin Julander, and with me as always is my co-host, Billy Hunt. How you doing Billy? Hey, what's up guys? Taking over. Chuck's a little late today, so we've got Billy taking over, filling in here. One slip up and you get subbed out. We don't have any patience for that kind of stuff, no late comers.

All right. Well, welcome to the show. How's it going? It's going good. Yeah. I'm excited. I've listened to a few of the episodes you guys have done, and it's a really cool concept. And it's cool to have a show with a different, I guess, mentality to it, you know, than all the other ones.

That's kind of what we were going for. I appreciate it. That's nice of you. Yeah. And I mean, I've heard you on several podcasts. I, we met in person, maybe more than once. I know for once for sure, Tinley, it's been a couple of years, but yeah. So, uh, Yeah, I was, uh, Jason Hood's do boy at that show so people either thought i was jason because i you know i'm a little tall too and um or they just forgot who i was so but yeah we met there and chatted so yeah i think jason was really busy i was thinking i'll catch up with him and but he was busy talking to people and so yeah i'm like i'll chat with billy because i you

know i'd heard you on some of the podcasts and yeah i like the way you think and the stuff you work with so like i got to chat with him so cool looks like you've uh how's it well i guess i say how's your season going how's our things uh got eggs yet or i have one clutch i have uh one clutch of nova guineas in the in the incubator um always excited to get those that's a project i'm really excited about that's cool yeah not a lot of people working with them or they're there's a couple no yeah there's not a whole bunch i think don't quote me on this but i think only five breeders have produced them okay um so far but they're gaining traction and they're getting out there more and uh people are starting to appreciate them and you know because they've they've been around for you know quite some time but

they're not flashy you know they're khaki and brown snakes yeah you know so when you have all the morphs and the bright colors you know i that. But you're starting to get the more hardcore people that are, you know, starting to notice that they're really cool and they don't bite. Their carpets that don't bite. So that's crazy. So what's what's the story behind those? What kind of intel do you have on where they came from or what's their background? So as the story goes, they do come from Papua New Guinea. Okay.

So it's kind of up in the air on what they are as far as if they're a different subspecies or if they're just a locality or, you know, if they're pop one carpets and, uh, you know, it's just up in the air that not enough has been done. And it's kind of hard to get over there and, you know, to do the research needed you know because of the area but uh yeah i mean there's they're kind of we did a write-up on them in the magazine um for the first issues and um the whole thing was like you know the mystery carpet you know like what is the actual thing with it i talked to nick about it and supposedly there's one guy in Europe that has the information, but he just refuses to talk to anybody. So here we are. Yeah. It doesn't help when that, when that kind of stuff impedes, you know, the knowledge and stuff. So, yeah, but yeah, they're, they're an interesting thing for sure. I guess,

you know, I have a hard time as soon as you leave Australia and go north. I don't know why. I'm not as excited about the New Guinea stuff as I am about the Aussie stuff. But that said, I mean, I have some green tree pythons from New Guinea and I don't have any more. Baby steps. Yeah, I got rid of all my IJs or New Guinea. And, uh, I don't have any, yeah, I got rid of all my, uh, IJs or, uh, New Guinea carpets. And so I don't have any of those anymore, but doing, you know, researching for the book, it was, uh, interesting to see, you know, kind of the disjunct population

that's over there. And so that would be really interesting. And I don't think there's really a genetic, uh, difference, at least not, not as of not as of now or but but i don't know if they've run the samples from the png side you know usually the samples all come from the the indonesian side so it's hard to say but yeah definitely uh interesting it needs more work up there but yeah well maybe one day we'll know yeah Yeah. Daniel Natush published a pretty nice paper on the animals up in New Guinea. So that was interesting and had some really good information that wasn't really had up to that point. So, yeah, good stuff. Well, that's cool. Yeah. You expecting a very big season or?

I'm hoping I put a lot of stuff together, but, uh, you know how that goes. I'm kind of in that, um, well, before I got that first clutch, I was in that panic mode of, Oh, nothing's going to happen, you know, phase, but I'm starting to see signs now. Yeah. Like, uh, I have a Mack lot girl that's, you know, doing the pretzel thing now. So that's a good, good sign. Um, I got another girl that's, you know, not eating and stuff. So I'm starting to get the good signs. So hopefully it's, you know, a good season. Oh, it already is. I got eggs. So it's already a good season. Everything else is a bonus from here, but right.

Yeah. All my carpets took last year off. So if I can get a couple of carpet clutches, that'd be nice. I really need to produce some inlands and some some other stuff but it looks like i might have a jungle female that's going soon so that'll be nice too to have more jungles on the ground i haven't produced those for a while kind of laid off the carpets a bit after kind of the all the ones were coming in from europe and everybody was kind of morph hungry and so i'm just like i'm gonna take a break for a bit but well it's cool to see that uh people are kind of stepping back from the morph stuff and it seems like they're more either want selectively breed you know wild type stuff or uh you know

locality stuff's taken a lot of a lot of traction lately too so yeah it's funny seeing the cycles you know when you're in it long enough you see the ups and downs of everything and all that yeah it's cool to see the like when i got into it it was just jags tigers and reds you know that was the thing and then awesome ijs and to see you know the cycle do a dip and high end was pretty cool. So, yeah. Yeah. That's it's a, it's interesting when you stick around for a while, right? Not a lot of people do that anymore, but no, I guess there's some good long-termers out there. Yeah. Speaking of which, I get to go, I'm headed up to Seattle next week for a work conference and I'm going to hang

out with Casey Lasek. So that'll be fun to, he's always, he's always good to hang with him. He's got so many cool stories, but one of my heroes for sure. One of my mentors in the, in herpetoculture. And I remember it was probably about, um, what, maybe 15, 20 years ago when I first met him and it was kind of, it was, it was at a conference up in Seattle. Again, it was one of my first ones after I got my job or started up at Utah state. And, uh, I just kind of like approached him out of nowhere and asked him if I could come to his house and all this stuff. And he's like, he let me come over to, you know, to his credit. Like I, yeah, it was really nice. So, uh, and we'd just been friends ever since so it's pretty cool you know i've noticed

don't mean to interrupt no yeah you're good but i've noticed like more recently people aren't as open to you know let people come see their collection and stuff now you know people are a lot more guarded and which i get i mean i'm kind of the same way. Like if I've met you before, you know, and I don't get weird vibes. Yeah, sure. Come, you know, I'll talk snakes with anybody, but you know, someone just cold messages me or just comes up. Hey, can I come see the place? Like, no. So I guess I'm part of the problem too.

No, I mean, you know, you gotta have a little, and I think, you know, we sat and chatted for a while before he even offered to show me the animals. Like I was like, I just want to meet you. You're like a legend. You know, I guess maybe we worked up to the point where he's like, okay, this guy's okay. Or something. But yeah. Yeah. It's a process. Sure. Well, I guess, why don't you do a quick introduction? Tell us kind of how you, or tell me, I guess there's no Chuck, there's no us right now. So tell me how you, or the listeners, of Tampa, Florida. I got into reptiles first or second grade, something like that. You know, like most of us. I actually, I wasn't surprisingly being in Florida. I wasn't the kid going outside, catching everything. I was kind of more of a fish person at that point. You know, even though I was young and a kid, I had a few years of like building my own tanks and, you know,

doing all that stuff. So then it morphed into, oh, I see these leopard geckos at the pet shop. And now let's do that. And then that turned into a handful. And then Uromastyx, water dragons, chameleons, all the stuff you get into. Because I wasn't in the snakes at first. I was kind of spooked by them. And that kind of goes when you're kind of fearful of something, you kind of get fascinated by it. And then the more you know about something, the more interested you are.

And then this happens. Right. Yeah. As he's talking in front of a wall of cages. Yeah. Yeah. What, what, when were you, when you, how old were you? When were you, how old were you when you got into the snakes

i guess uh i was what was i 14 or 15 okay just started high school uh i made the decision uh that summer before i started high school actually before that that i was going to get a snake and i'm doing research. I found carpet pythons. I found Caponetto's old website, uh, Will Bird's old website, your website. You know, I printed off all the, all the stuff with them and I decided I wanted a male IJ because they were small, you know, smaller. They had the color scheme that I liked. I really like earth tones and stuff like that. I went to Daytona that year and the rest is history.

Right. Yeah. Once you see him in person, that big, big change, I think. Yeah. I was a, so it was actually nerds table that, uh, I found the, cause it was already, it was like a three-year-old male. That's what they told me. It was probably an import.

Who knows? But, uh, I sat there and held that thing for probably 45 minutes. And the guy was so Kevin wasn't the one talking to me. It was one of the other guys. And, uh, I would think of a question because i knew all the questions but then when it's time it's spotlights on you're like oh man what do i say and uh he was so cool and so easy going he would talk to me for a little bit and then he saw i was thinking he's like hey i'm gonna go talk to this person i'll be back and he did that a few times and it was just a good experience

all around and obviously that snake you know secured my love for morelia and carpets and stuff yeah that's awesome well you've got some really great projects over there some of your you got the i like i really like the the coastal stuff you're working with and yeah so i got into i got into it more on the IJ side. That was my main focus because one of the big purchases I made early on was a 10 lot of farm bred babies from Dan Malerick. Yeah. I can, you know, pretty much do what I want now. And I got some really cool ones in that group. And then just how things work out, I ended up getting a couple Coastals, getting a few more Coastals. And now I look at them like, when did I get more Coastals than IJs? And just kind of morphed into that.

When you ask about like my place and everything i guess i'm known as the stripe guy you know obviously not you know not as much as balin or you know the real guys but that seems to be the thing that i get drawn to the most so i have stripe projects and coastal jungle ij um crosses and if it has a stripe it's kind of hard for me to say no so yeah i'm the same way i love the the stripe stuff yeah that's good stuff nice to join us hey it's johnny come lately our guest has arrived my bad you've been replaced chuck Chuck. I deserve it. I deserve it. How dare I? All right. You get one strike on this podcast. Yeah. Yep. I know. I'll never live it down coming from you. Oh, gosh. Well, you had to remind me we were recording a couple of weeks ago. That's fair. That's fair. I should get it. I should at least get a partial pass here.

Exactly. Well, good time. We just kind of introduced Billy and, and, uh, we can move on or get into the fight. I suppose. Unless you got anything to say. No,

I apologize. All right. Well, yeah, we were just talking about, uh, this collection, um,

striped carpets. That's that gets me. Kick ass striped carpets. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. There's something about a striped carpet that just does it for me. That was my, uh. Striped anything really. I like striped snakes in general. Yeah. Striped lizards. So. Had some striped levis for a little while. I, uh, I, I, I said back in the day you know when when they

were doing the whole light side dark side thing that team coastal was actually team solo so yeah that's right like that so the so what would that i guess that would be kylo ren then if you're into coastals and ijs see but then you just now you're yeah i guess okay i get what you're dark i get what you're saying now yeah okay i don't know if you're star wars nerds but i guess yes i am there's a couple of i saw empire strikes back in the theaters so there you go oh the real fan yeah at least the old fan. I don't know. I think I saw the original one, but I think I was an infant when The New Hope came out. I was certainly around, but definitely young enough that I probably can't legitimately claim I remember seeing that movie.

Yeah. Oh, I don't remember at all. But then my parents got the soundtrack and I'd sit by the record player and play that over and over. Nice. Get all excited about the music. Grab me from an early age, I suppose. All righty then. I guess if we don't have anything else to say, we can start fighting here um so today we are going to talk about the i guess uh pros and cons or or one side versus the other of either working for a professional breeder

or kind of learning on your own and and developing your own uh techniques and and learning strategy through just working with different animals so So it should be an interesting topic. Let's see how it goes here. All right. Well, Chuck, do you want to flip to see who gets to debate Billy? Sure. Okay. You want to call it?

I can. I'll try to moderate my flip strength here so you can you can watch and see can i see it i don't know i want to see your hand that was heads i think you are correct my friend see i like to see his hand because he's he telegraphs now so i i've i don't know if you've caught it got me all figured out on previous episodes i actually uh telegraphed this. So anybody who watched Justin flip, you know, he typically his low flips are tails. His high flips are always heads. So good to know. Yeah.

You got a sharp eye. I will take the debate this time. Okay. I'll let you moderate. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right, Billy, your turn.

See if you can see my flip strength on that Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right, Billy, your turn. See if you can see my, my flip strength on that and give it a call. All right. That was high. So I'll say heads and it's heads. So you get to choose which side you want to defend. Uh, I will choose learning on your own.

Okay. Okay. Yeah. Benefits of pro training under probe readers for Chuck and learning on your own for Billy yeah benefits of pro training under pro breeders for chuck and learning on your own for billy cool all right um do you want to go first or do you want to let chuck go first i'll let chuck go first all right he's into it the old putting putting his strategy on him on yes all right um so i think one of the the main things that first I'd say is that, you know, learning from a professional breeder definitely has its advantages and you're kind of ahead of

the curve. You're kind of already being taught ahead of other people's mistakes. They've made the mistakes and you've kind of benefited from what they've learned and their experience. And they can kind of, you know, teach you those pitfalls without you necessarily having to make them. And, you know, as we've probably all learned with our mistakes, sometimes they can be expensive and sad and they can kind of hurt a little bit. So, you know, sometimes if you can, you know, get around the hump, so as to speak of not having to suffer through some of that, I think that's probably one of the bigger, you know, one of the bigger reasons why learning from a professional is advantageous. All right. Strong start.

What do you got, Billy? All right. So, I mean, I can't disagree with any of that. And it all sounds good. So, I guess a reason I picked this topic or out of the ones that we had like hell to, uh, find somebody to kind of take me under their wing, if you will. Um, and time and time again, I got, you know, basically it didn't happen. So it's pretty much a trial by fire thing. Um, they didn't want to give you the, the big salary and benefits that you were asking for.

No, no, no benefits, no stock options, nothing like that. So, um, pretty much I, I didn't have a choice, but to, to learn on my own. So, um, I think too, it depends on who, like who you're learning from, you know, cause every breeder is not you know on the up and up as much as the next guy you know it depends on what their what are their motives what are you know what's the reasoning behind is it a big you know huge commercial guy that you know maybe they're just worried about the bottom line and you're learning more of the business side of it or is it someone that, you know, is just a snake nerd and they got, you know, a whole bunch of different species and they just

want to figure them all out. So it, you know, that varies too. So that's going to depend on which is better and which isn't. For me, I, so I kept for 10 years before I decided to breed. And within that 10 years, I made so many mistakes, like a ridiculous amount of mistakes, just like we all have. But, you know, and it's just like anything else in life. Like, as long as you learn from the mistakes that you make and you don't continually make them, you know, that's good. This whole hobby is a hobby of trial and error. So even if you are learning from a big breeder, it's not going to have the same impact as if you make the mistake yourself or it's your, you know, let's say like Chuck alluded to, it's, you know, it's your expensive mistake. It's just humans in general.

You know, you can tell somebody the right way to do something a hundred times, but until you actually make the mistake yourself, it's not going to stick. You know, that's just how we're wired. So, you know, there's that if you're making a mistake with your own animals versus with somebody else's, you're probably going to learn a lot more and take it more seriously if they're your own animals rather than somebody else's. Yeah, for sure. For sure. So, you know, so in those 10 years, I just kind of honed in. I just had carpets at the time. So I just kind of learned as much as I could. I

gathered as much information as I could, researched on the internet, did everything I could, made my mistakes. And pretty much my goal was to vend a show. So my idea was I wanted to, when I put that table of carpets out, if someone came to me, there wasn't going to be many topics that I couldn't, you know, handle and, you know, take care of. I wanted to be that guy. I didn't want to be a jack of all trades. I wanted to have that, you know, that focus down. So, yeah, at the time, I mean, now, obviously I got a whole bunch of species, but you know, that was the, the initial thought. Yeah. Very cool. All right. That's pretty good rebuttal. Yeah. Well, and I mean, I, you know, I think kind of piggy piggybacking off of what I

said earlier too. I mean, you know, you, you, you do get to, to, to to to to to learn while you work for a professional breeder um but you learn with their money uh and and their mistake your mistake in their collection isn't your loss it's their loss and so you know kind of kind of two-sided there right like you you can't cost a professional breeder lots and lots of money by continually making mistakes. So you do have an onus to perform and they do have an onus to teach you correctly so that, you know, they protect their investment while investing in you as well. So, you know, I think that that can look both ways there. And, you know, I mean, I think you learning in somebody else's collection and then deciding what you want to do.

If you, you know, like you gave the example of like a breeder who's all over the place and has lots of different things. And if you can kind of take care of that and you watch that collection work and you see how that is like selling all kinds of random things and what that means in your room versus like how, you know, like, gosh, this guy has all this different stuff. It doesn't line up very well. He has, we have problems kind of keeping, you know, this stuff that's kept differently than this stuff breeding consistently. Ah, I see that. So I think there's, you know, there's lessons to be gleaned and potentially savings to you when you decide like, OK, this is the direction I want to go when I set up my collection. And so your initial investment in setting up your room, setting up how you're keeping them, your racks, your cages, your whatever, whether you're going to do bioactive, whatever you're going to do can kind of be learned and move through other people's mistakes. So just kind of the same idea,

but really kind of honing in on that. Okay. One thing I maybe request you to bring into there, Chuck, is, you know, maybe also training under other professionals, like in a zoo setting or, you know, like a nature center or something like that, you know, maybe include that in some of it too, but yeah, sorry, Billy, go ahead and respond. Those are, uh, those are, if you could get into a zoo situation or a nature preserve or something like that, I mean, yeah, that's all really good, you know, learning that you can get from there. Um, yeah, definitely like, you know, say if it's, uh, if I make a mistake in a, another person's collection, it's, you know, it's their loss. It's not my loss. Um, so just to kind of double down on what I said before, you know, like,

yeah, I'm getting information from there, but is it really going to be as is it going to stick as much if I'm doing it for someone else? You know, when I think of a big breeder and working for him and stuff, I think like the old BHB, you know, size collection and stuff. Another thing I worry about with, you know, that situation, if you work for them, right, like you're going to get burnt out, you know, like, are you even going to want to stay in the hobby? Is it something that you went into because you enjoyed animals? And this was something you wanted to do. And yeah, you're messing with, you know, the owner's money and stuff and it's all on them. But at the end of the day, are you going to even still be in the hobby? You know, how many people have worked for bigger breeders and aren't in the hobby now once they stopped working for them? So if you learn on your own, yeah, the risk is on you. There's a mistake. It's going to be on you,

but there's a flip side to everything every success will be 100% yours and you can have pride and ownership to that and I think there's definitely something you know to that to where once you have that success on your own you figured it out like nothing can beat that you know like you can you can follow the formula that the bigger guy had it you know every single day and everything works everything's fine okay that's cool but when you try something that's your own you know personal thought that you came up with through researching and reading papers and natural history and all that you know you're going to be that much more excited

and it's going to reinforce what you're doing. And it's not just the bottom line of, okay, we need to have a hundred clutches this year to meet, you know, our demand for, you know, supplies and all that, you know, like I have a decent overhead. I probably have 200 snakes or so, depending on time of year. It's not cheap, but that's not something I focus on. I'm not like, oh, I have to sell this many snakes to do that. It just depends on the mentality that you're going with.

That'd be my biggest thing, is you just don't want burnout. Do you do it professionally, or do you still have a day job, that'd be my biggest thing is you just don't want burnout. Yeah. Do you, do you do it professionally or you, uh, still have a day job, that kind of thing and kind of do it as a hobby business? I work two jobs and do this. Yeah. So no, definitely not professionally. Yeah. And I, maybe to, to piggyback on that too, like if you're working for, and maybe you'll bring this up, so I hope I'm not stealing your thunder, but if you're, if you're working for somebody else, they're probably not giving you the fun stuff either. Like they're going to keep all the fun stuff for themselves.

If they're going to pay somebody, it's to pick up poop and to feed animals. That's about it. Or clean cages. That's all you're going to be doing. And sometimes they'll kind of partition you to a certain group of animals. So you may not get that diversity anyway. Yeah yeah definitely that's what i would do yeah i would do the cool stuff right you set up the babies or do fun stuff like that yeah all right chuck yeah so i mean yeah a lot a lot of good stuff covered there i I think kind of going back to like zoos and preserves and in professional settings, if you want to work in those settings, you know, they have a very regimented and stringent way that they do things.

They expect you to, you know, the care protocols all come from research. They all come from a place of, you know, some sort of scientifically proven fact, hopefully for the most part. Or something that's, yeah, or something that has been, you know, proven to be effective. They're obviously not going to engage in stuff that is, you know, hokey or, you know, this is not in their interest to do. So I think if you do get in, in that kind of a way, um, you, you're, you're already starting out in, in kind of a scientifically and, and, um, methodical method. Uh, whereas, you know, I think most people who start don't, they don't, you know, you can understand that there's research out there, but most people don't know how to like negotiate to that until they've been doing it for a while. So, you know, potentially there's the pitfall of like, where is the good

information? How do I find that? Oh, you know, these are all professionals. These people all do this for a living. These people all understand the access. Oh, these people, you know, know who to talk to about that thing. You, you have constant access to a, a good professional, um, uh, veterinarian, you know, like there's, there's, there's some, some definite ends to that. Um, you know, I think, um, you know, there's, there is definitely a potential pitfall in, in working for somebody else in that you have to do it their way. Right. You know, they call the shots and, and as Justin kind of alluded to, maybe you don't get to you know,

I guarantee at the San Diego zoo, you don't start working with the King Cobras on day one. You don't get to work with venomous there's, you know, there's, there's, you got to work your way up with that. And, and that's a good thing, right? That's a good thing. And, and, but, but I would argue that even in your professional job, you didn't start at the top doing all the cool high speed, low drag shit, right? You have to start at the bottom, learn how to do stuff. But nonetheless, you still learned, you were still trained. And so, you know, you get to experience the worst part of it. Oh,

man, this is cleaning tons of shit. And this is a lot of work. Whereas you get that experience ahead of having to do that onto your own thing. And, you know, that gives you the idea of what the expectation is going to be if you go ahead and do that yourself. And then I guess, you know, I mean, you got a response, Billy, or I've got some more, but. Go for it, man. I don't know. I'm hitting them all down. I think the part about working for somebody else, though, is, yes, you have to do it their way. Yes, there's that expectation. You're learning. But hey, That's their animals and they got to worry about figuring out, you know, whether they're going to take over, whether they're going to bring somebody else in to take over. Meanwhile, you're free to go do whatever you want.

So I think, you know, that's a definite bonus. And you can kind of, you know, you can kind of pump those brakes whenever you want to. So, um, yeah. I throw in too, like when you're, you know, working for a zoo or, you know, they, they usually have a really good like quarantine procedures and separate facilities and things. So you kind of see the benefit of those kinds of things. And like you said, veterinary staff, that's huge. And I mean, like, you know, the learning curve from not learning that stuff and getting a big collection, getting your big collection going and then getting like NIDO and then it just rips through your collection. And, you know, it's horrible. Like that's the hardest learned lesson.

But if you were to work for, you know, like a zoological association they're they're they're not playing that you know what i mean could it happen sure it could but it's a lot less likely if you're if you're you know following stringent um protocols of of quarantine and stuff like that so yeah yeah really good points um the the whole you can walk away at any time i mean that yeah that's a big plus i know i'm supposed to be against it but that's that's one that i think doesn't get thought about but two i mean how many people they'll stay long enough to hate it you know like a lot of people don't know when, you know, to cut the cord, if you will. So I got a couple of things I want to hit on from what you said.

So with the regulated policies and stuff. So one of my jobs is I work EMS. So I work EMS. And then my second job is I work EMS at Bush Gardens here in Tampa. So we work a lot with the zoo staff and all that kind of stuff. I have been in the snake room, you know, the reptile area, and I've tried to talk to those guys like about medical stuff. I'm not going to go in there and be like, hey, I keep and breed snake. You know, like that's not how you get into that uh but notice like they are super stringent to where i know because of professionally what i do if they get bit by a certain species they need to go to a certain

hospital well i know on the one like they have cards on all their venomous so whenever they're working at venomous they put they clip the card to them and it has all their venomous. So whenever they're working at venomous, they put, they clip the card to them and it has all their information and all that information of the species, what antivenom and what hospital they need to go to. So I saw that one was not the right hospital. So I'm like, hey, do you, you know, do we have the call to say that?

And he's like, no, whatever's on the card is what happens. I'm like, I'm telling you right now, that's not the right one. It was like, no, this is how it is. Don't question it. So I could see where that would be a turnoff, even if in keeping. Hey, I'm seeing this in other places. Could we implement that here? No, it's A, B, C, and D.

And this is how it is. And this is how it's going to go. No matter if they die or they fail, we don't care. Just do it this way. If he dies, he dies. Exactly. Exactly. And I mean, too, how many species have suffered from that in a zoo setting or something like that,

to where they're so strict in everything they're doing that even though the information is out there they you know they won't take i'm not saying zoos are terrible just you know everything has its pros and cons well and i mean who hasn't gone into a zoo and seen an animal that they just know are not thriving and they're not being kept properly and you're like yeah come on guys you're a zoo let's pick it up a little you know it's easy to criticize from the outside but you know at the same time, come on guys, you're a zoo. Let's pick it up a little, you know, it's easy to criticize from the outside, but you know, at the same time, come on guys. Yeah. So, um, another point I wanted to bring in, uh, so like with, with zoos and a nature preserve and all that, like how, how likely are you to get into that in general, like in the first place? Like how, how likely am I,

let's say this was 10 years ago when I moved down here, you know, I, I was just a guy that had a couple of snakes and I just went up and was like, Hey, I want to be a part of this. You know, can I get in? They're not going to take people like that, you know? So how, I guess the, how difficult would it be to get in that position where you can learn those different policies, quarantine procedures, all that, you know? It sounds good, but there's, the reality of it is they're not going to just welcome anybody with open arms. You know, like I know at Bush, bush it's i think it's a at least a bachelor's or something before they'll even look at you yeah you know and then the pay and stuff like yeah yeah it's one of

those things where it's like they want they want experience but they're not willing to give unexperienced people experience and so where do you get the experience i mean that's a that's a that's a problem yeah that's that's everywhere. Everyone wants free internships from people before they want to pay them for anything. But in this case, I mean, you can get experience on your own, like Billy's side says there. And I know that our buddy Steve Sharp, you know, he's in high demand in the zoo field because he did have that experience, you know, keeping and breeding a wide variety of different species before he went into the zoo field. So, you know, it can, that can definitely benefit you when you're doing it on your own. Sure.

Definitely. Like, I guess if I'm talking about myself, I'd probably have a little more of a leg to stand on now if I went to the right place than if when i just had you know a handful of carpets and i'm just a guy that has a couple snakes in his house and that's you know that's all him they're like oh all right man like yeah and and and how easy would it be for steve to get in there even with all of his you know all of his background in reptiles without his degree from asu right like you you know you still have to meet the minimum requirement for for a professional unless you have an in you know unless you're from you know

yeah i mean i i i was at one you know wasn't sure what i was doing before i had my degree and was kind of like hey how do i kind of get into the reptile department at the zoo without a degree? And they're like, well, they have certain like mentorship programs and they do have avenues. But to your point, you're 100 percent right. Like there is definitely keys that guard the gates in definitely some of those professional organizations. And, you know, maybe rightfully so, you know, it's obviously if, if you want to have a professional organization, you want to have standards around who you let in and, and, and Hey, I,

I mean, I still would say if this is what you want to, if you wanted to become a professional breeder and, and, Hey, I mean, I still would say, if this is what you want, if you wanted to become a professional breeder and you had, were going to school to get a degree, you get a degree, you start working at the zoo, you start learning those things. And then you move on, uh, kind of like Steve is, you know, interested in potentially moving on to do his own thing. Now I'm not saying he wants to go be a professional breeder, but potentially he learned a lot of skills through that track that he maybe didn't have, or he had access to knowledge and experience that he didn't have. And I think the other thing that working for a professional can give you is you're in the in crowd, right? You're with somebody who

has a name, that name knows other people. And so it's a networking issue, you know, and, you know, as we all know, in professional settings, networking is everything, almost more than how great you are sometimes, which may be for right or wrong, you know, that's, but that's how it is. Right. So that networking really can give you, um, that, that in potentially with other, uh, you know, with other professional breeders that like, well, I worked for him for a while and then I went over here because he had this and, you know, so, so you, you potentially could laterally transition, uh, in a professional setting with, with, with a professional breeder. Uh, a professional breeder if you're good and you're in demand and you're kind of one of those people and then kind of go on to do whatever.

And then I think, you know, just really just the other thing around that would be the access to breeding stock that you could potentially get with that networking with those professionals. You get to see how they're kept, you get to meet and know other people. And, you know, sometimes being that in being that, that, that breeder gets you can get you access to stuff that may be hard for the entry level kind of keeper who wants to get his foot in the door professionally that's a good point i hadn't thought about you know the access to rare and less frequently bred animals from other breeders because that that's usually probably who they talk to a lot of times sort of the guys who yeah have the the big pockets and big collections or

something potentially yeah well with with that i mean that's that's a really good point i don't disagree with that at all but for the sake of the show yeah yeah for sure that's what we sometimes we got to do it for the sake of the show yeah for the sake of this show let's say chuck is a big time breeder, right? He's on top of the mountain is Almejera is everywhere, right? He's the guy. And, uh, I've worked under him, you know, I'm his, his number one or whatever. And I, you know, do a lot of stuff there. It takes a specific type of person to be able to go from that role to go on their own and make a name for themselves.

Or am I always going to be, oh, yeah, you're Chuck's number one. That's how everyone remembers you when you network. You'll never get away from that shadow type of thing. And is that going to hurt you? Is that going to help? I think that's going to be, you know, situation to situation. So that's my take on that. Yeah. I don't, I mean, if I could just respond though, I mean, I, I really feel like though, you know, how many ball Python breeders are there out there? And if you're working for justin kabilka uh that is only going to help you

uh even if you're hey oh you're you're justin kabilka's number one guy rather than working for larry's balls you know what i mean like you know i mean maybe people know larry's balls but they may not know you're not you're not you're Larry's number one ball guy. You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? Doesn't carry the weight. Doesn't carry the same weight. So I do I do think I do think that really being a widely known number one for a guy like that doesn't really hurt you. I get what I get to your, I get your point about potentially being pigeonholed, but, but I would also argue that you got to go out and

make your own, you know what I mean? Like it's hustling in the streets out here and, and what, you know, doing, doing tough stuff and, and, and you know, getting getting getting a name for yourself is because you have a talent and you've shown the industry who has a lot of talented people in it that, you know, you did stuff that you to earn their respect. So I think at some point you got to cut your own, you know, I can't think of any examples and I don't know a ton of people that have kind of worked for Pro Breeders and then kind of gone out on their own. But you wonder if they see them then as competition and if they, you know, know their weaknesses and try to, you know, put in hints about, oh, this guy, when he worked for me, I don't know. He was a little, you know, they kind of, so I wonder if that happens, if that's a problem or, you know, you might, you might face that if you try to go out on your own, you know, that might be a challenge. Sure. It's going to be a case by case thing. I think it depends on the individual too. You know, some people are going to be cutthroat. Some people are going to be genuinethroat some people are going to be genuine people you know it just it depends and we have both types of people in the hobby so yeah definitely you got to

be careful that's for sure yeah yeah there's people you've never met in your life who if you're doing well will shit on you just for the fact to shit on you so yeah and they have a great online persona that everybody thinks they're saying and then all of a sudden oh i heard stories you know maybe they're not yeah yeah that's the the beauty of the internet right the best thing that's ever happened to us yeah yeah so at another point i wanted to hit on uh having to do it their way so i can can kind of, I can relate to that. So I'm really good friends with Casey Cannon. You guys have had him on a couple of times.

So he actually came and helped, you know, we have a couple of joint projects and stuff. So he'll come down and hang out and he was helping me clean cages and stuff. And I didn't realize realize you don't realize when you're by yourself like the the routine you have in certain way things are done and then he's doing his thing and I'm seeing I'm like whoa like wait what are you doing you know and that's probably a pro of you know doing it yourself and having your own way is that you don't have to correct anybody or worry about, oh, if they're not doing it my way, then they're doing it the wrong way or is it going to hurt anything or anything like that. So if you're doing it on your own and learning on your own, then you get your own routine.

You don't even have to worry about that. It's just your way of doing things um yeah when you said that it reminded me of seeing casey do baby tubs and i was like that's not the way i do it here yeah stop then i you know then i had to like take a step back i'm like no it's literally just cleaning it paper water good you know like as long as that gets done who cares yeah uh but you know it's something i've never had to worry about because you know i've always done it my own way another thing i wanted to bring up so as i said at the beginning of the show, I tried to get a mentor.

I tried to get people to teach me things, you know. And I guess this was before – how do I say this? I guess it was before I was known, if I'm known. You know, like, you know, we all have our own little circles and stuff. I guess before that happened. Sure. One of the biggest things – I didn't know how to sex snakes and what's the biggest thing that they put out there. You know, there's so,

there's little bullet points that in the hobby, it's like, okay, to learn this, you need to find somebody to teach you experience this and that, blah, blah, blah. I have a pretty good reptile presence here in this area. You know, the Tampa, Orlando, you know, just Florida in general, there's reptiles everywhere. So you can't throw a rock without hitting somebody that has some type of experience. I reached out to a lot of people and not one would take the time to, you know, show me how to probe or teach me how to pop or whatever that I got sent videos. And I got, you'll figure it out.

You know, you'll be fine. You know, but you hear so many times like, oh, you need to have someone experience. You can hurt the animal. You can this, you can that. But I was in that situation. I had no choice but to learn myself and do that. And luckily, you know, it worked out, but. Yeah. That's, that's funny. Cause I heard a story about a certain, uh, I guess, higher profile

breeder and in, in Florida. And, uh, he was going to sex a snake and ended up sticking the probe in the, in the rectum, in the, up the cloaca the wrong way. And he's like, Oh yeah, that's a male, you know? Yeah. And so maybe that's the problem he had too. He couldn't find anybody to teach him. So he just had to learn on his own. Yeah. I mean, I think there's definitely, there's definitely times when you're potentially working for somebody else where you're like, all right, I know already I do that better than you. Yeah.

You don't know what the fuck you're doing. So, you know, that's a that's going to be that's going to be a thing. And and hey, I mean, you know, potentially the other side to that is. Maybe they're not good at sexing snakes, but they have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of snakes and, and you're having to sell snakes for them. You're going to have to get really good at sexing those snakes. And Oh, by the way, you have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of snakes to practice versus, you know, you, you starting yourself and having, you know, so, so one at, you know and, and, and, you know, you have heard about big breeders who maybe have sent people incorrectly sex snakes.

That's on the big breeders name. That's not on their people who sex their snakes wrong. So potentially not good, not good for, you know, not good for you as the potential employee or intern or whatever, but definitely worse for them. So again, you know, I think there's certain things that hopefully if they're good, they, you know, they know how to do that stuff and they teach you correctly so that they don't sullen their name. But if you're sullening their name, at least you're getting good practice sullening it. So, you know, soiling it right. Like kind of how I see it. Yeah. Well, our buddy, our buddy, our buddy,

Ben Morrill is going to make all that a thing of the past, right? We can just send in a shed scan. We don't need to pop or probe or anything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, just a little shout out to Ben. That's all. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Well, shout out to Ben. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I wanted to run back because I realized I kind of skipped over it. But, you know, when you were talking about and a really good point about, you know, places that have the, you know, the basically the wrong information on their protocol. I think probably the bigger issue there would be people who have no protocol. And so potentially, you know, what, when I think about like the, the, the repercussions of those two kind of diametrically opposed things, what what's worse is, is somebody who has a bunch of cobras or or venomous and they

get bitten and they have no bite bite bite protocol my goodness oh you just made fun of me so you know what like and and what is that that ends up on the news. That is the that is the antithesis of potential legislation in that state versus, yes, this guy worked for the zoo. It makes the news, but nobody wants to legislate a zoo over that kind of a mistake because they're licensed and insured and they have all these protocols and they they had a flaw in their protocol and they have to address it i think that you know it's just viewed publicly a little bit differently yeah so i just would you know just respond to that one yeah no i definitely being in florida yeah for sure right yeah that's happening yeah because we got people that are, you know, you also run into people that are just too prideful to admit that, you know, they were wrong or they're doing something wrong or whatever. But, I mean, that's people being people, right? Oh, yeah.

You're never going to get around. Yeah. You're never going to get around that. And, I mean, that isn't to say that there's not, you know, professionals out there who have sloppy protocols and don't, you know, do things the right way. And I think Phil Wolf kind of brought that into focus when we were talking about venomous mentorship and and was kind of like, you know, some of his horror horror experiences on having to learn from people who weren't doing it the right way so you know again like you can suffer from the ills of of of a professional doing it the wrong way too so i mean that's you know that's notable oh definitely he's he's told me more than a few stories of yeah why he does certain things because of you you know, big places he worked in the past.

Yeah. Yeah, that's, I mean, I'm helping your argument. Well, yeah, I mean, it's, you know, just because you have a big name or you, you know, whatever, it's not all, it ain't all roses, you know, like there's, you know, when you get down in the weeds, sometimes you find out that, you know, there's more to it, you know? Yeah. Well, let's say I work for a ball python breeder and that's all they know. And I know that my interest is, you know, what I have, carpets and old world rats and excuse me, stuff like that. Um, there's only so

much of that information and knowledge that I get from there that I can apply to my animals. Yeah. You can apply a lot. Um, then it definitely the, the business side of it and stuff, but you know, there's still, even if you learned a lot from them, you're still going to have to, when you branch out, learn on your own or learn your own, you know, make your own mistakes to learn from and stuff. Uh, so even if it's a combination of the two, you know, there's still pros to both of it, both of them, I guess. Yeah. Looking at it that way. And then how many, I guess, from what you were saying, Chuck, that just because they're a big name doesn't mean that they're on the up and up on stuff you'd expect them to. How many people just kind of skated by?

Let's say I've been in it for 20 years. I'm well known around the country. I go to all the big shows. And I have had guys that will do the dirty work for me. They palpate the females for me. They sex all the babies for me. They deal with the trouble feeders. They do all that to our next thing. I know it's been two decades and I can tell you about the animal, but if you come to me with a problem and I need to troubleshoot, I might not have the best information, you know? So it doesn't just because he's that bigger guy,

doesn't mean that he's going to be the pinnacle of knowing the answers to all your questions. Sure. I've heard of a lot of, a lot of those, uh, you know, pinnacle guys that are taking credit for somebody else's work and making it seem like they did it all just because it was done at their company, you know? And that's, and I'm just going to say, if you're working for them and that's the case, fuck them. Who gives a fuck? That's their problem, right? I mean, you know what I mean? If you learn how to do all that shit and it sets you up and you walk away a fucking badass and they burn themselves to the ground, that's their fucking fault.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But taking that, if, you know, let's say you're the guy that, let's say you're Justin that, you know, learned on his own. He's got all the, he knows how to troubleshoot everything. He's seen just about everything that can happen. He produces all this stuff. You go to him and he has an answer

for everything, every bit of advice he gives you. It works because he's learned from experience and he's learned from actually being in the trenches, if you will, with those situations. I'm going to take that guy over the guy that just spent a lot of money and got a big collection that he had to hire somebody to take care of it for him and maybe missed out on those opportunities to learn you know just another take on it i'm not saying big breeders are like that that's i know i hope that's not how it's coming across no i take i take your point and that that has i mean there are examples of that you know they usually don't last too long but you, there are examples of that, you know, they usually don't last too long, but, you know, there are examples of that. Thankfully.

Yeah. Oftentimes though, those, those big breeders are, you know, they, they've gone through a lot and, and kind of learned on their own before they got to that point. And so, you know, they see, yeah, but I would say probably the majority are that way, but yeah, I'm sure I'm sure there's there's a lot of several that break those rules as well. Oh, yeah. I see them all the time here. The market here and not to not to like poo poo on that community, but you see it a lot in ball pythons because they're you know, they don't they don't take up a lot of space. You can get them to breed, you know, fairly quickly. And, you know, I've seen plenty of breeders around here that, you know, they put in a few grand, they get, you know, a couple racks, they end up their first year, they end up, you know, with clutches and stuff and

you ask them questions and they're, they can tell you all the morphs and they can tell you, you know, this times that and the ratio and probability of this and all that. But if you asked them, let's say a natural history question or, you know, Hey, what if, what if the snake gets constipated or what if this they haven't experienced it yet because maybe they got into it for different motivation besides love of the animal? You know, and I hate to say it, but I've seen that multiple times here have fucked it up with reptiles, you know, over and over again. Like, definitely you see that, right? Like that's a that's a thing. And that's not even just a thing in ball pythons.

That's a thing in reptiles. Always has been. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. that thing in reptiles always has been yeah absolutely absolutely and and that's the that's the most hilarious part of it is the the you know like justin says if you want to make a million dollars in reptiles you have to start with two right like it's not you know and so and so those people who are good businessmen you know that they know, and they want to make a living at it. That's who you want to learn from. And obviously, like, you're not, you may not like,

to your point, you may not always have access to those people, they may not be in your area, you know, they may not always be super open to like, you know, hey, yeah, come on, I'll show you some things I'll teach you that because they're also concerned about their competition because, you know, selling snakes is like, you know, because of the mantra of like, oh, everyone should be a breeder. Everybody needs to do this. So, you know, every, every breeder is like, man, am I just selling, am I just making another competitor for myself right here by making this sale?

So it's kind of a, you know, there's always these like crazy push pull forces, but, but I do think that, um, you know, when you talk about getting in and building a collection that becomes a business to become professional, you start at one that there is, there's definitely tiers to being a professional breeder and, and starting at the bottom and those types of sales are not the same as working like the bells or somebody who works at large scale. Right? So if you can get that large scale experience, it's easy to kind of back calculate yourself to figure out how to get there. But if you've never been there, it might be easier to see it first working successfully and hopefully it works successfully.

Or I guess at the very least, maybe you're like, all right, that's not how to do it. Right. You know, so I, you know, I don't believe in bad data. Everyone can teach you something, right? I've made this kind of plea before, but I want to just throw this in again. You know, we got to get past this whole multi-level marketing idea of reptile breeding. You know, like, oh, you buy this morph and breed it to this morph and you can make babies and sell them for this much. And, you know, you make your make your money and stuff like that. I'm so sick of the whole pyramid scheme ideal for reptiles. And I'm guilty of kind of pushing that a little bit, you know, several years back.

Like, hey, you know, when I was into ball pythons and things like that, and it's hard not to get caught up in that excitement of the, the new morphs and the new combinations and all that kind of stuff. But I really think it's more damage does more damage than good. You know, let's, let's move past the pyramid team. I do. I do think though, because all three of us are breeders, right? All three of us breed. And, and, you us breed and and you know i mean i don't have a website or a business or anything like that but but i like breeding that's what i like to do and i like to breed stuff that kind of matters in my you know i would hope in my opinion that that there's kind of a point to it in the end right whether that's like entry-level geckos that i can get a kid geeked and hook them into reptiles and they love it.

Or, you know, establishing a species that has been, you know, notoriously difficult to breed. Like there should be something there. But, oh, fuck, I just totally lost my whole train of thought. I mean, that's I think, you know, I kind of know what you're what you're driving at. But like if if you're doing it for for the love of the animals, you know, kind of know what you're what you're driving at but like um if if you're doing it for for the love of the animals you know that's got to come first because you're not going to have any staying power if it's for money and you know like chuck just said if you if you want to make a million dollars you know yeah you know you're not going to be rich breeding reptiles at least in the in the immediate you know term you've got to put in a

lot of work and a lot of effort to make that money and it's very the morph game shows you that so fast yeah i mean that's that's honestly that's one of the better the better negative sides of the morph game is you get all these people who come in who are like yeah i'm gonna put this big money down i'm gonna get these things and by the time they get them up to size their their investment has decreased so much in value because of the you know the way uh the the production and time happens that they're like fuck now i have to spend the next six years selling these things to make my money back versus the guy who bought first and he only had to spend, you know, three years or two years. You know what I mean?

Like, so like, then you're like, oh, oh, I didn't understand the game I was playing. And if they worked for a big breeder, they would see that without having to learn that hard lesson, right? I mean, you know, potentially, potentially. Because they'd see, oh, these guys are just trading amongst themselves. They're not really putting those new morphs out on the market, except for silly money. They're actually trading them amongst each other

rather than selling them for big cash. But they put on the airs that, oh, I just sold. I moved 10 of these, and they're $60,000 snakes, even though they just traded a bunch of lower level morphs for them or something. They sell the dream. Yep. Don't look behind the curtain. Don't look behind the curtain.

Well, and selling the dream keeps perpetuating the cycle, right? Getting other people to be like, oh, I'm in this because I'm, I want the dream. Like, you know, it's, it's, you know, go find 10 of your friends and get them to join up and then you can be like me. It's like a multi, Oh my God. It's a multi, multi-level marketing scheme. Holy fucking shit. Like, you know, I have, I have a whole bunch of morph carpets that i remember when i first saw them i was like holy crap i'll never get these now i see like you said like i i mess with carpets

because i like carpets i don't think anybody like really gets deep in the carpets because they're looking for the payday you know i came to terms with it a long time ago i'm never gonna make my money back it's just yeah that's just the nature of the love of them yeah you know but i see some of the stuff i have and i remember when i first saw it oh this would be so out of reach and all that and you know now they're you know affordable and i'm able to work with them and it's i don't look at it like man i wish this thing was still three thousand,000 and I could, you know, get a clutch of them and make 20 grand and not like, I could care less if they, if they're 150 and I can get someone jazzed about the species. That's, you know, that's why I got into it in the first place.

That's why I put in all the groundwork to learn on my own and make the mistakes and all that. So I could be that person to get someone else excited about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I mean, I think that's one of the coolest reasons to work with stuff that ain't worth shit. You know what I mean? Cause you don't get your, it's already, it's already priced, right. It's already. And if it's, if it's cool and you like it, you're not, you're, I mean, I don't mean this in a negative way, but nobody's special and unique. If you like it, there's going to be other people who like it. Right. And maybe, you know, you're weird and you like angry scrub pythons and that's your thing.

But there are still people out there who like angry scrub pythons. Now there, there's not a lot of them because, you know, nobody likes getting assaulted, uh, repeatedly, but, but, but they're out there you know what i mean so you know all shapes and sizes yeah for sure yeah yeah i work with a lot of um old world rats that are i hate saying this but it's kind of what the hobby is coined certain species you know like the the throwaway species so like the uh like radiated rats and uh yellow striped rats and you know a lot of the stuff from indonesia and all that that are they're just hell on wheels and they're always going at you and yeah you know you can get them wholesale for 20 bucks and all that like i have groups of those that i'm just so excited about

like that's honestly what i'm most excited about this year is having a shot at producing uh radiated rats and flavolineous because like they're just such cool species you know so i'm really grateful that i'm able to do this and i joke and say i have my real life and i have my reptile life and i'm able to keep them separate yeah yeah and uh the fact that i can work with all these different species and I found myself, the more I I've gotten into the hobby, you find yourself in little circles, you know, like I'm in the Morelia circle and I'm in, you know, some old world rat circles and, you know, all that. And it's just, it's cool.

And like you said, just trading them all around, you know, yeah, we're all a part of that, you know, in and it's just it's cool and like you said just trading them all around you know yeah we're all a part of that you know in our own little circle so yeah that just makes it more enjoyable and um yeah i guess i lost my train of thought on that oh that's that's kind of yeah kind of how it used to be you know where it was more like you know you didn't necessarily worry about breeding but if you were lucky enough to breed, then you hooked up your buddies who were into the same things you were, you know, and you corresponded by pen and paper or something. You know, it's like. Another point that I can bring up is how many people get in with the sole purpose of breeding you know like i said earlier i kept carpets for 10 years without even thinking about breeding because i wanted to learn everything i could about them as far as husbandry and you know all like really is a if you don't know anything about morelia and then you get

into it it is daunting like we all take it for granted with all the subspecies and crosses and morphs and now this is changing that's changing and you know you take it for granted once you get it all straight in your head you know but taking that time to actually learn the species and not worry about oh well i bought this pair of snakes for x amount of dollars i need to recoup that you know i think it only helps in the long term yeah so i try to tell people that and a lot of people don't like it but you know like i'm nice about it but yeah like i had a i guess a quick little story i had a a guy come up to me at a local show and he asked if i had any he was was looking for some morph of ball python. And I'm like, well, I don't have any.

You know, if you look at the table, there's not a ball python on there. And he was like, okay, well, I'm looking for this. And I got to get it now because I just rescued this something, something female. And I got to breed them this year. And I was like, hey, man. And I said it just like this. I'm like, you don't have to breed them this year. And I was like, hey, man. I said it just like this. I'm like, you don't have to breed that animal. You just said it came from a rescue. What are you doing?

Well, he just turned around, walked away, and went to the next guy that would sell him what he wants, and then he's going to try to produce more. I really feel sorry for those people because they don't – I feel like they don't uh i always say this i guess everybody doesn't have the same passion that's the right word yeah for the hobby you know obviously guys like us do um yeah you know and it's yeah i couldn't imagine doing this and not being like all in, you know, like how miserable would that be to like clean and see.

I would kind of say, I feel like I have some disdain, disdain for those people and I feel sad for their animals. Right. Yeah. You know what I mean? I'll take, yeah. Well, I mean, it's the same thing as the, the lower level of the multi-level marketing scheme. You know, the, the guys at the bottom are doing all the heavy lifting and, and get all the crap and have to pay all this money for their product and, you know, have a hard time moving it. And the people up above them are just laughing all

the way to the bank. You know, I don't be like, you know, don't be the bottom rung. And that's the thing is you can be passionate about something that you're excited about, but don't do it for the money. It's just, it's not there. It's, it's a pipe about, but don't do it for the money. It's just, it's not there. It's a pipe dream, you know? It's not a thing, yeah. Yeah. I'll go ahead.

Sorry, sorry. I was going to say, it's not a thing unless you do, like, what the Bells used to do. They're not as big as they used to be. They've gotten rid of a lot of their stuff. But, you know, they used to be the largest producer, I know, in the States, possibly the world. And they had the big box pet store accounts. So they were supplying Petco and PetSmart across the country with their bearded dragons, ball pythons, corn snakes, Kings, you know, all that. Yeah. They're making money.

They're not going to do that and put that, you know, many animals out if they're not making money, but for sure. Also it took them time to build up to that. They didn't just say, Hey, I'm going to breed snakes and Oh, here's this 20 acre, you know, place that I have all these facilities on and I'm just going to start cranking out all these animals. You know, it also took time for them to build up and stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, and, you know, I think, yeah, to giving you a point here, you know, when you get those bigger, those bigger people. And, and I was thinking of, you know, um, uh, you know, I was thinking of, uh, Dan and, and, and Nicolette when we, when we were, uh, at NARBC and, you know, they, I've always thought of them as ball Python people. Right. And then, you know, when we went to the, to the show last time, I don't even think they had a single ball Python on that table at all, but they had, I mean, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of colubrids and, and, uh, knob tails and just different stuff. So it's like, they have to, you know, because they get it that size, they have to go at what's popular. So, and you know, just like, just like the eighties, those fashions come back around again and then they wax and they wane and you know uh

yeah the the mexican black rat uh the the mexican black uh king snakes like they were you know cheap as dirt and now they're they're in vogue again and they're expensive and and yeah and so you know you're you're you're kind of on that windmill cycle. And I guess, you know, if you're cool with that and you just like breeding stuff and that's how you make your living and you're okay with that, cool, man. But I definitely could see like, fuck this. I don't want to work with this stuff. This is what's popular. Fuck. Okay.

Well, I guess I got to do that, you know. And that to me would be no fun. So, you know, I just, I think there's definitely something to be said for having your own freedom and being able to, you know, punch your own ticket. Um, so yeah, but, but, but again, you know, Nick Mutton, a guy who's punching his own ticket. So, you know, you can do it, you can do it. You just got to be the guy, you know you can do it you can do it you just gotta be the guy you know what i mean if that's what you really love you gotta be the guy that's hustle that's work that's why nick's on the motherfucking phone every day you know clamming you know talking you up not getting off like you know an hour minimum yeah hour minimum easy easy yeah

so well yeah I think this has been a really insightful discussion some a lot of good points being made you guys got anything else you need to put out there we got we covered it you got any closing statements I feel like we covered it I mean

both sides have its its positives and both sides have its negatives. So I think we both did a good job at really talking for both sides, because it's just, it's one of those topics that there's really no right answer. You know, like I said a couple times, I wish like hell I could have found somebody to help me get through the growing pains and stuff. But the fact that I didn't, you know, years later, I appreciate that I was able to do it on my own and, you know, learn that way. So, yeah.

You know, the best lessons are often the hardest lessons learned. And those lessons are often done through, you know, your own mistake. So I, you know, I fundamentally believe in that. You have to, and, you know, I, I think working with, with a professional breeder or whatever, and having a safe space to make mistakes, you know, IE, you don't bankrupt yourself by making a mistake or, you know, and, and it's in a controlled environment where maybe they're kind of watching over you. Maybe that's great, you know, but in the end, you know,

you still have to be the one learning. And having a mentor there is great, but you don't always have a mentor. So it is, it's a, you know, it's a minefield of nuance and not an easy, you know, straightforward one is better than the other. Well, you could also, just one more point, you can also like learn on your own for 10, 15, 20 years. That doesn't mean that you can't get a quote unquote mentor then and continue to learn. You're going to keep learning no matter what, you know,

whether if you're learning from somebody or you're learning on your own or whatever, you know, don't think just because you've been doing it X amount of years that there's nothing else that you can learn. I mean, Justin, how many things did you and Nick learn, you know, right in the new book? Oh, yeah. You guys know what you're doing. Yeah. Leave it at that. It's a lot bigger. I think too, like, like you were talking about with the circles, you know, you, you get to know people that have similar interests and you can, and that's when the real kind of

ideas are bounced off each other. And, and, you know, Hey, have you thought about this or have you tried this? And you actually learn quite a bit when you, you know, uh, what would network what Chuck was talking about? You, you network and you kind of get to know those people and, and then, you know, you grow together and, and, and those are some of my favorite, I mean, this was kind of a little bit of the impetus for the show is to bounce ideas and hear the other side and see kind of things from a different point of view because you don't learn anything if you're set in your ways and you're not listening to the other side you're not thinking

about you know the alternatives you just oh this is the way i do it i just put these two together in november and then i get gather eggs and you know it's like you gotta you gotta kind of think outside the box sometimes and and you know the more people you have in that circle, the, the more brain power you've got collectively and the more you can learn as a group and grow together. So, so it's, you know, in the communities out there, there's some really great communities out there, you know, you sure going to have your bad apples, but you, for the most part, there's a lot of good people and, you know, you can find them, um, through various means, but yeah, that's a good way to do it. All right. Well, good stuff guys. I, I, uh,

neglected to ask you, I, this has been kind of, I've been scratching my head about this for a while, but where's your company name come from and,? And pronounce it again for me. It's Uwabami. Uwabami. Okay. Uwabami Reptiles. My sister actually came up with it. It just means snake in Japanese.

Okay. And my Kenji character also means snake. Oh, gotcha. Okay. I got validated. So, you know, they always talk about the Asian guys coming at the shows and, you know, the little one with the fanny pack and all that. That's a thing. That's a fucking thing. Justin's like, yep.

It's a great thing, too, when they come to your table and they're like, oh, yeah, they came to my table they didn't buy anything so it wasn't one of those stories but uh maybe next time yeah but uh it was the little older guy and he only spoke japanese and then he had a younger guy his interpreter his interpreter they always have an interpreter so of course they stopped right at my table and they're like, oh, do you do business in Japan? Because they saw my name. And I was like, oh, no, I just thought it was cool and a cool idea for a logo. And, you know, I didn't want to do like, you know, BH reptiles or something like that. I wanted to do something original and something simple. So, you know, I told them and then they saw I had Sidi stuff on the table. So like, oh, we're not looking for that but so before they left i'm like hey real quick am i correct here or did i completely mess up yeah and uh

they you know whispered real quick and then they're like no that's that's right on that's what it should be yes it wasn't the the dumpling soup or something you know yeah right yeah but you hear about the tattoos. Yeah, I was just thinking, that's what I was thinking. It says Kung Pao Chicken. It doesn't say snake. Well, I also found out. Any ties to Japan or was it just kind of something cool?

My sister married a Japanese guy. So I guess that's where it came from, I guess. So it's cool. I, I like it. Um, my fiance is Asian too.

She's not Japanese though. And, uh, we've had people come up to the table. We had these two older Southern white ladies come up and just sweet as could be, but they're like, they see her and she

goes oh i i uh see this is probably because of you with the name and stuff she's like no that's this was way before me you know i don't know about that but it's a conversation starter so i guess that's what yeah for sure yeah oh that's cool okay i just want to say that was justin's dogs and not mine yeah that's that you heard in the background that's a rare event they're usually upstairs i know i've got an unreal dog and we just got a puppy he's always growling and barking at the puppy so obnoxious dog they want to get on fight club that's right we'll have to have your dogs fight my dogs. Oh my God. Well, call it, call it reptile mania. How, how did people get in touch with you, Billy?

Yeah. Put your info out. You can get in touch with me, Uwabami on Facebook, Instagram. I have a YouTube channel, but I haven't done anything in a while on that. Yeah, just message me on there. I'm always down to talk to anybody about reptiles. Yeah, those are the main places. I mean, that's where we all talk to each other anyway.

Right on. Well, I appreciate you being on the show and sharing your point of view it's been a really great discussion thanks yeah i appreciate it thanks for having me on yeah well we'll acknowledge uh the morelia python radio network morelia python.com there isn't really a python radio.com i really got to get this straight man i eric's probably not very happy. So check them out on all the social medias and all that good stuff. Check me out, australianaddiction.com. I should know my own site, australianaddictionreptiles.

And we'll – how about you, Chuck? How do people – you don't want to find Chuck. I'm not. Leave Chuck alone. Yeah, I'm not ready. He goes late to the show. He doesn't get to plug himself. That's right.

That's right. Get off his lawn, guys. Get off his lawn. That's correct. All right. Well, thanks for listening to Reptile Fight Club, and we'll catch you next week for another episode. Billy Badass, Justin, and I are fuckingtile Fight Club and we'll catch you next week for another episode. Billy Badass, Justin and I are

fucking out. Fight Club. Thank you. Bye.