Reptile Fight Club - Reptile Fight Club takes on Genetic Defect Morphs

Episode Date: April 22, 2022

In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the topic of Genetic Defect Morphs.Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Thank you. Welcome, one and all, to another edition of Reptile Fight Club. I'm Justin Julander, your host for this podcast. And with me, as always, Mr. Chuck Poland. Hello, everybody. All righty. Well, it's the weekend. It is the weekend. Oh, I am too, man.

Long week. Long week. Yep. I don't think the week is over for me, though. I got to give like four presentations to the nih and i'm not done with them yet and that's next early next week i've got like monday to do it so i'm probably gonna have to work on them over the weekend unfortunately but what are you gonna do i was gonna work i feel i feel graced to to have your presence here right now, then. I don't know. There's not anything to be special about, but just work.

Yeah. Wow. Okay. Gotta say how we've been accountable with the funds that we've been given for research. So yep. Good times. I'm sure it would put a lot of people to sleep. It would put, wow. It's putting me to sleep, putting them together. So now it's exciting. There's a lot of, a lot of good stuff that we've been doing. The Institute for Antovar Research. So. Nice.

But enough about that. I don't want to think about work for a while. Me either. I had Marines. I had Marines run a blade from a a v22 into our crane this week so i don't want to talk about yeah that's not a good that's a big that's a that's a big thing so you don't anytime you anytime you run a a part into a 75 million dollar or a 75 million dollar aircraft into anything it is a big it is a big deal so that's terrible yeah please pay attention when you rotate so yeah yeah anyway yes let's talk reptiles yeah what's going on in the reptile world? Well, let's see. Yeah, you know, I, in usual fashion, have seen like some promising stuff.

And then I say something about it. And then I'm like, oh, no. Oh, no. No, I've been skunked. So I'm at that point where I've said enough. And then I've been taking it back and said enough that I'm just not going to comment until things actually happen. So we'll see. Hopefully, hopefully Tracy stuff happens. I don't know.

Sounds like Shane is going to. I think I think I think he's going to go. He's going to to Pete. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's good, dude. So yeah, that's awesome. Yep. Definitely. Definitely. Well, I've got a, got a female jungle that's going to lay any day now. So that's fun. And it looks like a one or two inlands as well. That'll be nice.

Excited to have more carpet python eggs again. It's always, it's been a little while. So, well, I guess it hasn't been that long, but, you know, it'll be nice. At least two years, right? Yeah. Yeah. I bet that feels, I mean, when you're, you know, when you're the doctor and you're used to, you know, repeated year after year success, two years off must feel like a while. No.

I haven't read carpets very heavily for a while. That's a fair. Yeah, that's true. You definitely took a break. I guess the second edition of the Carpet Python book has got me a little more excited about carpets or something. don't know i paired paired stuff that i haven't paired for a while so yeah it'll be nice but i do need to uh make some inlands for sure yeah i'm excited about your inlands that's that's cool i mean you know inlands will always always and will hold a special place in my heart there oh yeah they are one of the earliest people to breed them right

for you that like the second in the country or something yeah so carry carry carry well todd carry carry uh was the first and then yeah i uh bred the following year so yeah that was when that was a long time ago i don't even know now yeah that was back in the day. Yeah. But yeah, they're fun, man. I, I, I feel like, I feel like you had them. I had them. Todd and Carrie had them. A few people had them and everybody who had them was like, Oh, these are so awesome. They're so cool. And trying to convince people of that. Like, but yeah, they don't photograph well ugly babies like other carpets so

you know all that fun stuff but they're the most rock solid they all of the positives of carpets they're they are they have all of those attributes and they're just you know they're tough as nails they're excellent feeders they're docile as heck like yeah you know they they have these colors and hues of that go into the purple and and red and they're just like outstanding but really hard to photograph you're right yeah they're beautiful animals yeah yeah i'm i'm excited at the prospect hopefully i'll get some good eggs here my uh black-headed eggs are going strong i just checked on just just what i was gonna ask you about that's cool man i'm excited

for you i'm not counting anything until they freaking hatch yeah no fair enough fair enough but they they look i mean they look good so hopefully uh i get lucky but yeah well i don't think it's luck but i need to chat with some, some folks that know what they're doing better than I do, but I don't know. I just gave them a big space, you know, as much room as I could. They take up a whole shelf of the incubator. And so, um, we'll see how, see how they do. You have them in a big, you have them in a big, uh, uh, egg, egg chamber then. Is that what you're saying? Okay. Okay. A lot of airflow in there. Um um i've got some holes drilled in it which i didn't have last time so i think a little bit of airflow a little bit of air movement

might be beneficial for those i don't know i guess we'll find out i think that's what i i i thought i remembered taking notes when i talked to casey he was take me about, um, black headed pythons. We were talking on the phone, you know, a few months ago. And, uh, I, I thought that I had, you know, written down, but then I checked and I didn't have anything written down. So I think I meant to write it down and then, so I need to probably talk to him again, see if he has some good advice for me. So yeah, these are from, from his uh westerns so gotcha if i could hatch out one i'd be very happy that would be really cool to see a little baby western blackhead hatching out so they got it man you got this it'll happen it's your hope so after my what three or

four failed attempts up to this point but i think this is the first time she's wrapped the eggs yeah um so that's that was an you know positive yeah uh step in the right direction there were two slugs in there i just took those out earlier before we jumped on here and um they were kind of going bad a little bit so i thought i'll just get rid of those get them out of there but nice yeah and the a couple of the eggs look a little you know like they've got kind of that rough part where it's you know a little discolored and almost like a boob egg but you know similar to that guy yeah now what do you do well so we'll see yeah i'mate them all. Yep. You hang in there and you run the deal.

Yep. And then comes the fun of trying to get them to feed. So one step at a time, my friend. Yeah. I just have to get them hatched out first. Yeah. Yeah. Well, how are those geckos doing? Geckos are good. Um, yeah um yeah i just i need to uh i'm a pathetic i'm a pathetic salesman i need to get ads up and get get some of these day geckos out of here uh but you know i just i i like the breeding part but not the sales part so yeah it's yeah it's a it's a curse i have yeah so and then you know i like i want to i want to sell them because i don't i don't necessarily want to wholesale them but it's

kind of like i'm getting to the point now where i'm like okay either you need to sell these or you need to do something because you have eggs coming and you're out of space and so yeah decisions decisions um probably late in the game to i don't know put some ads up we'll see i just gotta get off my ass and do it so but yeah well that's the the fun of this i guess you know yeah yeah it'd be nice if it was an automatic thing but you got to work a little better don't you for sure for sure well good problems to have i suppose you know i mean yeah i yeah i'm not saying why can't i get these things to breed so that's a good thing um yeah yeah that's true i've never i've never had anything i you know once i got into geckos i've never seen anything that breeds this

like automatic and easy and i'm just kind of like oh wow that's like it's really like once you if you set it up right like you're good you're good you just feed it and support it and it just like is rock and roll yeah yeah it's not you're feeding them they're pretty i'm not used to, you know. Yeah. I think I might have a couple of gravid geckos as well. Nice. Some of my wheeler eyes. Oh. Get some of those. A new species for me.

Yeah. I probably need to work on getting another incubator. I don't have like a lizard specific incubator. So I just try to get the python incubator to work for the geckos. I mean, they usually do better at like maybe five or six degrees lower yeah of course yeah i mean 485 and then but i've got you know the 88 on the python incubator so i probably should get a just a little incubator that i can put gecko eggs in and so i i mean i keep my room pretty flat temp at about eight, you know,

78, 80 degrees. So I just set, I just put all my stuff in like a, you know, half full with, with, uh, vermiculite and I put the eggs in there, put some holes in the top and just set them on top of cages in the, in the snake room and they do fine. They do great like that. So it's kind of, kind of nice of nice um but yeah i mean i it's it's it is you're right it's it's a little too much of a temperature difference to uh to try to you know but but again though i'm an idiot and uh i've got viper geckos and they like it a little bit warmer so now they're in the incubator but they're at a temperature that, you know, I could probably get away with incubating all things in. So, you know, I'm going to if I get those carpet eggs, I'm going to try to if I if I can get Tracy and I get carpet eggs, I'm going to all incubate them at like 86.

And, you know, I think I like I, I like the, I like the long, slow cook. I think, um, I think it's, I just, I don't know. I think you can, you know, see, I, I feel like I, I get better results at a little bit lower temperatures. So I used to cook hot and fast and I just, I don't think that's the way to do it anymore. Yeah. Yeah. It would be, it'd be nice to, to have like an incubator, like a, I've, I've thought about doing this, get, you know, the, having the top part, like the freezer part be a gecko incubator and then the bottom part be the pythons. But I have a full size, you know, tall, uh, freeze old freezer that I turned into a, an

incubator and it fills up pretty well. It's a little hard to do, isn't it? Just because the, you know, obviously like in a, in a freezer, the freezer actually cools the refrigerator through like a duct. Right. So, so there, so, so the two air spaces are coupled to each other, right? So, so you're like, you would have to find a way to moderate. Well, if you have different, yeah. If you just completely sealed it off. I have two different thermostats, one for the top, one for the bottom, and then yeah. Yeah. Seal it off with some spray foam or something. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Someday I guess. Yeah. I remember Ed Bradley has the baddest ass he's got like one of those old like 50s style refrigerators that are like you know like like old cadillac refrigerators they're just like awesome looking and and cool like back from a time when they made appliances to last forever like and he any converted into an incubator. That thing is so badass, dude. I love that. Mine is a cheap piece of shit that broke on somebody and I repurposed it. Yeah.

But it works great. I'd like one of those Coke, old Coke, you know, with the glass fronts and stuff. That would be kind of nice to have yeah have the sliding glass front or something there you know like they do but yeah maybe someday i'll have to replace my old behemoth with one of those if i can find a good one that'll fit in the space i have here but that'd be nice to be able to just look in and see you know what's going on yeah for sure. I definitely like that, that aspect of it. And it's like, you kind of look at some of the, like, I look at some of

the incubators that are being produced, um, not necessarily the industrial, like scientific ones, but you know, like some of the, like, you know, some of the, the companies that are making cages, making incubators. And I'm like, ah, there are some features there that would be nice, but I don't know. There is an aspect of building and controlling your own incubator that, that is kind of nice. It's true. Well, the, uh, book is sent off to make a blue line so we can have it one final check, you know, the, the printed version of the book

and see if we're happy with it, and then it's off to the printers. I feel like we're going to get off of this podcast, and I'm going to jump on Facebook, and I'm going to see Nick asking for more pictures. No, at least not for this book. Maybe for our next one, but it's the way it goes, I suppose. No, I know. I'm just being facetious. I like, yeah. I'd always see, you'd be like, Oh, the book's almost done.

And then Nick goes on and is like asking for some last minute pictures. No, it was, it wasn't long ago that he put a couple new ones in and some pretty dang nice ones too. So I'm kind of glad that we got a couple in under, you know, uh, at the end of the end of the line there but it'll be nice to have it done i'm excited to have this thing in hand that's all i can say you don't have any idea of when the printer's gonna get to and and there's probably going to be delays you know how that goes with all the yeah all the delays but we'll see

see how it goes i don't you know i know i don't know i haven't really asked bob if there are delays in printing i know they've i don't know when their last book came out or you know if it's been impacted but i know russ talked a little bit about that but that was a couple years ago you know there were substantial delays so not that we didn't help that you you know, by delaying on our end and, uh, man, that final check process, just, it can go on forever. Oh yeah, for sure. You're always going to find some minor little thing that needs changing and stuff. So finally you just got to just say, okay, it is, you know, this is what we're doing. This is what we're rolling with. So hopefully it's,

there's not too many errors or mistakes in there. And I mean, that happens. I was reading a book the other day, a reptile book, and there was a couple glaring mistakes within a couple pages of each other. So it happens. But what do you do? What do you do? What do you do? Get it out the door.

But we've gone through with a fine tooth comb a few times most of it was just like silly errors like the wrong figure number or you know stuff like that so well i'll have my my wife is an english major and a teacher so i will have her go through the whole book and screen it and uh and i will let you know i will say justin on page yeah yeah yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I won't. I would never do that. I would never.

Then we'll just call it the third edition. We'll just fix that. The edited, the edited, the grammatically edited version. Third edition. I'm kind of, I'm, I got some birthday money, uh, from my parents and Heidi's parents. And I'm trying to figure out what book to get. I want a reptile book. I think that's what I want to spend it on.

So I'm trying to decide between a couple of them. But I guess we're going to be at Bob's place in a couple months, so maybe I can just save it and spend it there. That's right. You will be at Bob's place in a couple months huh yeah fun fun fun yeah it was fun uh going on with the guys and talking about the trip on the npr that was fun that was good um good good times were had yeah yeah wait to get out there and hurt again yeah yeah it was funny i was listening to uh to to an episode of snakes and stogies and all i can think about is smitty tears

it's just funny justin mentioned that i think it was on either carpets and coffee or or yeah something about what is go we do we really need to use the smitty tears remember the smitty tears got me up the lost mine trail so man i i i don't i don't think if i know if i know those guys smitty tears is not going away yes and owen might as well embrace the the the sasquatch and you know like all those things better just happen, you know. I told you my theory on that. It's because he's part Sasquatch. So he's trying to hide that.

He is a Sasquatch. So, you know, he's hiding in plain sight. That's how it's going to be, right? That's why he wants everybody to look the other way. Eric and the hendersons remember that movie back in the day ari and the hendersons that was a great show that was hilarious right yeah and then at the end when you're looking and you don't see anything and all of a sudden they start turning around and there's like five of them in the shot that's you know yeah i guess they'd have to be pretty smart though to

survive this long without having one hit by a car yeah the odds the odds are they are i mean i think i've heard the joke of of sasquatch is the uh world hide and seek champion yeah that that would absolutely have to be the case but but but it's interesting i mean it if it you know either there's a whole group of people who are absolutely completely insane who go out into the woods and hear this really wild stuff going on or there is a group of just savage you know uh trollsters out there just just scaring shit. Like it's this giant game of, of, Oh yeah. A hell lot of people. I mean that famous one of the, you know, the kind of the one, the iconic one of the one walking in the woods, that one was the guys admitted to setting that up

and faking that, you know? So I think like, I don't know. I, I, uh, there's a lot of things that go bump in the night, you know, I was walking through the forest once and I heard this like growling, grunting. I thought it was a bear attacking something. So I'm like, kind of curious. I want to see it, but I'm kind of worried I'm going to get mauled, you know? So I'm kind of slowly walking through and making sure I don't, you know, startle a bear or something.

And I get to the place where I hear all the roaring and grunting and it's a it's a an amorous male porcupine up in a tree chasing a female you know so making all sorts of noises to impress her i guess but yeah so if i just ran home and said oh i heard a bear it was attacking something you know yeah that's fair in my mind that could have been a reality but um what did you hear actual reality was but did you hear tree breaks did you hear tree breaks i i did i actually climbed the tree really behind him and i held like a stick up and he whacked it with his tail so i've got this stick with like porcupine quills sticking in it somewhere. So, yeah. That sounds like a Rob recipe for getting quills stuck in you. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I didn't use my leg like Rob did. Yeah, no. Rob didn't try to use his leg either. Yeah, the cactus just used his leg. Yeah, that was a big spine embedded in his back. Oh, dude, that shit looked horrible, dude. Poor dude. He's just like pulling it out, and it's just like not coming out.

Yeah. It was horrible. Oh, man. The worst thing, the ones I hated the worst were the wait a while vines up in northern australia and like far north queensland they're like these it's like a palm but the end of the frond or whatever keeps going and it's like this razor wire oh yeah bikes on it and you run into that stuff and it's like, you can't move one way or the other. You have to kind of sit and like delicately pull out.

It's so miserable, not fun, but well worth exploring the jungles of far North Queensland. It didn't stop you, did it? No, no. But I had a lot of like scrapes and scratches from that stuff all over. But definitely. Yep. Some places you want to wear pants, I think. Oh, yeah.

No, I love your light pants that you had on. That's such a clutch thing. When you get more of them. Oh, yeah, for sure. Being in the desert in something that feels like shorts but protects like plants is a worthwhile investment yeah yeah they're gonna be pretty hashed by the oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah they're cool all right well anything else uh oh i was listening to to the um australian herp to herp to culture

podcast uh that was they interviewed ste Steve Wilson. That was pretty sweet. I seen that dude. I seen that. It's good. It's good. I mean, I'm sure. Yeah. I mean, that guy's an icon for sure. Yeah. It was really cool to listen to Steve Wilson talk about, you know, his, I mean, he's the man like making the guidebooks and stuff. That's pretty cool. So yeah, that was a good one. I'll give that a listen. Jason and Luke did a good job with the interview with him.

Good job, guys. Yeah. It's obvious to see why they're beating us, I guess. No. They're pulling in the big guns. Listen, I hate to tell you this, Justin. We're not that impressive. We're not.

We're just not. I like you, but we're just not that impressive to everybody else. It's true. It's true. Yeah. We do thank our one listener for sticking with us, though. So, yeah, appreciate it. Yep.

Loyalty is highly valued in Fight Club. For sure. For sure. Yeah. Well, should we get into it? Are we ready to fight? What are we fighting about today? Let's talk about weirdo

mutants. Derpy herps? Derpy herps. Whether or not they should be bred. This was an idea brought to us by James. I didn't write down his last name, but after I butchered Lucas Inger. You got it.

Butchered his last name. Maybe I shouldn't be talking about last names on here, but thanks, James, for the suggestion. And we're going to talk. Yeah. Should reptile morphs with genetic defects be produced? Yay or nay. So that is our topic for the day. So let's see what we can get out of this.

You ready to call the coin toss? Oh, I've been waiting all week for this. Let's see if your theory is correct. Ready? That's heads. It is. This is your year. Dude, you got it. Look, it's not my year. I just have your number. I have your number. I own your coin tosses. I was listening to this great comedian. What's his name?

Anyway, he was talking about not finding out what your baby is or whatever. It's going gonna be a surprise reveal yeah he's well he said he's like a surprise like when have you ever flipped a coin and been like shocked that it was heads he's like you're gonna be a boy or a girl it's not that big of a surprise you know it's one or the other yeah i thought it was pretty funny it reminded me of our podcast yeah flipping the coins yeah all right well what do you want to do you want to support derpy herps or do you want to say we should just kill them all no i i am anti-derpy herpy okay you're the you're the uh

hitler of derpy herps huh well i did not say I did not say genocide them. Hey, I'm just taking a logical conclusion. Wow, dude. I'm coming out hot, man. Anti-morph, anti- twerked out morph to Adolf Hitler. That's a jump, dude. Hey, that's

the go-to these days. You got to compare everybody with Hitlerler you know oh my god they do something you don't like they're hitler automatic well that's very putin of you thanks there you go back at you hey i'm just i'm just defending the the ukrainians from the from from the nazis so clearly nazis what the ukrainians have enough problems much less that was one of the excuses he used to invade ukraine was that he was trying to protect the ukrainian people from nazis that are infiltrating the country yeah i feel like he could do better than that i know right i mean i i don't know he must watch trump or something and all the like it doesn't matter you You say whatever you want.

Okay. Okay. We'll stop. All right. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Nobody loves that. All right. Well, as the coin toss winner, I assume you're going to have me go first. Oh, you know me so well. All right. Well, I'm going to come out with the first point of we are working with snakes in boxes these are not going to go repopulate the wild they are just for our enjoyment and i suppose that one of the big enjoyments that people have especially in our morph crazed, uh, her society is that we like pretty snakes. And so a lot of times in this, in the striving for beautiful snakes, we get some, uh, negative genes. And it's funny how, I mean,

it seems like a lot of morphs have some kind of downside to that genetic mutation. And I mean, it's kind of obvious they're, they're genetic mutants. They have, you know, mutations in one spot. And, and a lot of times, uh, that goes along with other, you know, less desirable traits. Genes are multifunctional. Yeah. It's like genes would be multifunctional or something. Yeah. So, um, with the, you know, you, you gotta, what's the old saying? You gotta spill a little milk to make a milkshake or something. I don't know. That probably isn't real, but yeah, I don't think you need to spill any milk to make a milkshake. I think actually

putting it all in the blender is how you get it done, but all whatever we're running with that today my old timey saying did not uh did not work there but yeah no no i think yeah there's so oh you gotta break some eggs to make an omelet that's what it is not jesus man that's a that's that's more applicable i think sorry yeah i don't i i guess i you Anyway, breaking omelets, breaking eggs to make omelets. So yeah, you're going to break one gene to give it a weird, crazy pattern mutation or color. You're probably going to maybe affect other genes as well. Our favorite example of this is the Jaguar carpet python that has neurological defects that are associated with the mutation. And that's likely tied to neural crest cell migration during development. That's tied to melanin. The neural crest cell migration has been shown to be tied to melanin. I don't know if they've showed that in snakes in particular, if that's just kind of a general thing. I remember Ben

Morrill was the one that kind of cued us into that little hypothesis, but it makes sense. I mean, and I think that's consistent with other reduced melanin mutations. And so you have a reduction of melanin and it's not dispersed as far and wide as it normally would be. And so they think that might be the reason for the neurological malfunction. But I mean, say what you will, but jaguars are very nice to look at. There's some really pretty jaguar mutations out there and combo morphs and just a jaguar by itself is really nice to look at. There's some really pretty Jaguar mutations out there and combo morphs and just a Jaguar by itself is really nice to look at. And so they were very popular for, for quite a while, but now you see a lot of people kind of jump and ship on the Jaguar boat and not, there's another one for you. And not really wanting to keep and breed those anymore. I think even the podfather might

have sent all his jags over to Owen or something, or maybe that was vice versa. I can't remember, but anyway, they're, they're ditching those, those jags. Right. And there's even some, I think legislation or that went through or was proposed in Europe to ban the, you know, allowing people to breed and sell jaguars because of that genetic mutation. Now I would say that, you know, if, if the animals eat and breed and do all those kinds of things, are they suffering? I mean, if, if we applied the same logic to people, we would not, you know, would we want to get rid of people that have, you know, neurologic disabilities or things? That seems, you know, like a pretty severe thing to say, oh, these aren't valuable because they have something else going on, some other defect or, you know, handicap or whatever you want to call it. So I don't know. I think that's pretty, pretty severe. So I would say, Hey, if you enjoy looking

at it and you're okay with the neurological defects, then go for it. Over to you. All right. So, uh, the Jaguar carpet Python, or as I like to call it, the twerky pole dancer. Uh, yeah. Uh, so I mean, I, you know, I, I think that, um, I don't know, man. I just, I, it's, it's one of those things where, um, Jags are great to look at. You're, you're not lying, but until you get one, that's really, really fucked up and then

it's really sad and it's really bothersome. And I mean, it's just, it's just one of those things where, you know, I, and, and, you know, I had, I got one, uh, it, you know, I got it, it came, it came from Europe and Nick gave it to me. Cause he's like, Hey man, this thing is, you know, it's pretty neuro. Um, I, you know, I'll just, if you want it, uh, I'll give it to you. And, uh, I said, okay, yeah, cool, man. And, uh, you know, good looking snake, like not, not the, you know, pretty typical coastal jag, um, not super flashy, you know, not across or anything, but, uh, but yeah, man, it was just like absolutely fall off the perch neuro. And it was really, really kind of tough to, uh,

I just had a hard time with it, man. And, you know, it's, it's one of those things where I was kind of like, okay, uh, I can't in good conscience breed this, uh, and know that then, you know, people come up with all kinds of fucking fuckery bullshit about how oh yeah no i got this one line that isn't neuro i've bred the neuro out no dude no it's it's in the gene every every jag that has ever produced can turn neuro and and you know i think there's some that are a little more

stable, but they get, they get super stressed out or introduced to a chemical or something. And then all of a sudden somebody is like, Oh yeah, dude, overnight, just completely neuro animal now. And so, you know, every, every, every jag could, could be bad. Um, and, and I, I went from just not being able to watch that to being like, how could I breed this? Like, it's ridiculous. And so I think, you know, it kind of cuts at the morality of breeding animals. And yeah, you know, I mean, you know, obviously, yeah, we're not we aren't Adolf Hitler and we don't euthanize people for disabilities just like we don't you know, we shouldn't just be euthanizing a snake that that has a neurological defect. But the question becomes, should we ethically be breeding them if we know that every animal produced potentially has a neurological defect. And I, I, I think it's just

ethically very questionable, um, to do so because what we're doing is we're, we're, we're knowingly breeding an animal that has a known problem for money because they look good because they can sell, you know? And so, you know, it becomes a, to me, it's a moral issue. It's an ethical issue. Um, can we do it? Sure, sure. We can do it. We can do lots of things, but you know, should we do it? No, it's to me, it's just not ethical. I had a hard time watching that snake and you know, Eric, I guarantee Eric feels the same way. And that's why he doesn't breed or keep jags anymore because it's it's it's not fun to watch you know what i mean don't try to use the podfather to bolster your son i don't i don't i don't need the podfather support here i know i have it but i don't need it support. I'm just saying I stand on my own. I stand on my own credibility. All right. All right.

If you need Eric and have to invoke his name, I'll let you have it because I'm confident. Sure. Well, okay. So we'll put Eric off to the side. And, you know, if I need him to pinch hit for me here, I'll call him up. But for now, you know, he can. Oh, you already invoked him. You already invoked the podfather.

Okay. So, um, I, you know, I, I, I get that and I, yeah, I've seen some pretty severe. I think the worst one I saw was over at Sean Christian's house and this thing, like every, you know, five minutes you hear a thump and yeah over in this thing would be corkscrewing around the cage and falling off the perch and stuff and i'm like oh man that like what's what's going on with this guy and he's like oh he's my best breeder he's like the best best breeder i have and he's produced a majority of the the jaguars that i've you know uh produced uh, produced. And I said, well, are his babies,

you know, do they come out of the egg corkscrew? And he's like, no, it, it, it really kind of depends. There are some that are pretty, pretty bad, you know, early on, but, but the majority, you know, it's, it's hardly perceptible. So, and I, you know, I bred quite a few, uh, jags as well and once in a while, or, or they might, you know, shake a little things like that. But I think the majority were, were for the most part normal, you know, and you could, you wouldn't really know that they were neurologic unless, like you said, you stressed them out. I don't know, man. I think you can flip a Jaguar upside down and you can see it instantly. Every Jag, any jag, every jag that I've ever seen that got flipped upside down, they have a spatial issue.

They have a neurological spatial issue where they don't flip themselves upright normally. You know what I mean? I mean, I've seen regular snakes kind of do it, but they right themselves. You know what I mean? I guess I don't go around flipping my snakes over. No, it's just one of those things where that was something that was talked about.

And every drag I've ever seen, you can flip it upside down and it spatially just doesn't do what a normal snake does and right itself. Does that mean that it's super neuro? No, it doesn't. Does it mean, though, that it can't become super neuro? No, it absolutely can can and that is something that you know and i i don't i'm not really arguing the fact that you know you you you they don't have it at all i mean i'm saying there there is some degree of it but to the to the normal person you're not going to notice that for for potentially i mean potentially i mean yeah you're also talking so

you're also you're also speaking in a way where uh these animals are kept in ideal low stress conditions not every keeper knows how to keep an ideal low stress conditions and not every keeper knows how to use frontline or some other chemical that they need to use in order to treat mites and and they'll expose the animal to to a front line and all of a sudden derpy herb you know and and it's you know it's just i so so i guess i mean i guess like so so so i mean it's it's it's really just an ethical question right is do do cool looking snakes trump the efficacy around breeding stuff that has issues and and you can look at granites you can look at you know and there's some granite lines that don't seem to have have as much of an issue just like there's some jags that seem to be have less propensity for neurological issues, but, but, but nonetheless, it's, it's

all still there. And it's, it's, you know, but like we've talked about it, it's inherent in what happens when you mutate genes and you change gene function a little bit. And it, it, you know, it generally has, you know, multiple, um, effects and not all of those. I mean, why would, why would we think that altering genes would always be a positive thing? Right. Yeah. Well those. I mean, why would, why would we think that altering genes would always be a positive thing? Right. Yeah. Well, and I mean, we're not altering them. It's, it's nature that's altering them. So, you know, we're not, we're not reaching more of them. Okay. Yeah. I mean, we're, we're perpetuating, we're perpetuating a natural defect, which would have been deselected out in nature maybe i mean i i found yeah i don't

think i don't water python i don't think the derpy jag would be the dominant well it came from somewhere i guess it was yeah it came from well i mean there's plenty of mutations you know ball all the ball python mutations came from the wild it it seems, you know, they brought them in and some albinos, some, you know, leucistics, some things that would stand up like, stand out like a sore thumb. Even Blondie, the, the first albino carpet python was found, wasn't that an older animal when it was found? Or was that a, I think they found it as an adult or maybe there was a hatchling. You're the one with the book. animal when it was found or was that a, I think they found it as an adult or maybe there was a hatchling. They found a couple, they found a couple albinos. So I'm getting confused on which one, but it seems like one of them was an adult when they were, when it was found. But so, I mean, there is a chance for these mutant animals to, to make it out in the wild. And, and I saw a one-eyed,

you know, water python. It had a pretty severe, um, defect where it was missing an eye and there was just, you know, normal skin there. Um, and you know, we, we do see kind of that, uh, sometimes when, when animals are either inbred or, or genetic mutants, um, you'll see some born without eyes at times, but this thing was out in the wild living its best life, you know, doing fairly well, as far as I could tell, it had some size on it. It wasn't like a fresh hatchling or anything. So obviously it done all right. And I, you know, snakes don't, especially pythons don't necessarily need to have the greatest sense of sight, I would say, you know? Uh, so anyway, I, there was another instance of, of this, of this bearded dragon adult that had a full

on hairpin kink in its back. Like its spine was in a, in a hairpin shape sticking out like almost like a Quasimodo, you know, you can almost pick it up by that. So, but let's, okay, okay. I get that. I get that. And so, so bad things happen and, and that's not what, here's my point. Here's my point here. Yeah. So I think you might be anthropomorphizing a little

bit. We don't know that these animals are suffering. We don't know that they are not enjoying life or whatever. I mean, you could make the same comparisons with a person that has neurological defects. Oh, they're, they're, they're miserable. They, they don't, you know, they, they probably don't want to live. We shouldn't let them reproduce, you know, that kind of thing. If you take it to that, if you anthropomorphize to that extent, then of course it, it's, it's kind of silly to say, oh no, we shouldn't breed these things because why, you know, if they're, are they aware that they have a neurologic defect, they eat fine, they breed because why you know if they're are they aware that they have a neurologic defect they eat fine they breed fine you know so there there could be an argument made

to say you know it's it's they're an animal they're living their life um just because they have a neurologic defect doesn't make them less you know less than it might bother you to to watch that or to see them, you know, where in your mind struggling, but maybe they're, maybe they're just fine. Maybe they don't perceive that as, I guess, I mean, I guess that's, uh, you know, sure. So what, what is, what is ethical? What is, what is, uh, you know, and that's a, you know, that's a, I guess a floating scale, right? Yeah, sure.

Exactly. I mean, but, but we're also not breeding humans with defects for money, right? Like, so there's, there's a, there's a, well, there's a, there's a monetary issue with this. So we're, you know, I know. Would you consider like extreme height? Like, it seems like the population is growing in size, like height wise, people want that, uh, mutation, you know, we're growing taller as a people overall, I think. Um, I don't know.

Is Yao Ming normal? You know, is he a genetic mutant? No, Yao Ming is rich. He is rich. So his height is making him rich. Genetic jackpot. I don't know what you want to call it, but anyway. Well, sure. Yeah. And I get it. I mean, but you know, I mean, I, I, I, I would bet that Justin Kobilka has no issues with morphs because he's done very well with them and they're beautiful and they're amazing. But I think even Justin would say not all mutations work out well. And ball pythons are a good example of that. There's a lot of mutations, but some of them just are not good. Eyeless animals, you know, messed up up stuff so now you're now you're

bringing in kabilka oh my goodness man dude i like dropping are you gonna do this i'm gonna do quite a bit i'm gonna do quite a bit but but but i mean i think look i think i think that you can do it you can do it successfully uh you you know, and there's nothing wrong with breeding morphs, right? I don't think that breeding morphs are the issue, I think, and I don't even think that having some issues around morphs when you breed them is necessarily the issue. I think the issue is when you have morphs or mutations that have glaring problems like the jag does that is that, that, that is, there's no outcrossing or, you know, different line or any kind of anything you're going to do to solve that. It, it, it becomes an ethical issue. Again, I mean, how, what percentage would you say

are, are severely affected? I don't know. You know, I mean, that's a, that's a good, that's a fair question. I don't, I don't. In my experience, it was maybe, maybe 10%, you know, we're, we're severely affected. Um, I, you know, I, it just seems like much ado about nothing. If 90% of the animals are reasonable and don't really show a very severe phenotype of that genetic or neurologic defect, then what's the problem? What's the issue? Well, then where's the line? Are we making a big deal about just a small percentage? I mean, if it's only 10%, then where's the problem what's the issue well then where's the line making a big deal where's the line if it's i mean if it's only 10 then like where's the line you know like and maybe it's 50 maybe if half of them are fucked well if only half of them are fucked up like i mean the other half

are fine then right like you know that's not yeah that yeah you got to draw the line somewhere perhaps but i think that's individual and to say nobody should breed these because they have this you know that's not what i'm saying that's not what i'm saying i'm saying that that is morally it is it is morally complex or or you know yeah morally i'm trying to find that right word but uh difficult to you know when you get into breeding stuff that has an inherent you know issue with its mutation you know where's the line where's where is the balance between financial profit and and efficacy efficacy or, or, you know, ethical treatment. I mean, we, we, we talk so much shit about being, being, you know, good keepers and treating animals ethically and, oh, all the, you know, what bigger cages and providing all of this enrichment and all of these things. And here we are breeding fucked up stuff being like yeah only some of them are fucked up like okay and i'm not i'm not i'm not saying that there's you know oh 10 is too much

i'm not even saying 50 i'm not making that moral judgment that's not that's not my place right but yeah but it is we have to recognize that it is um a slippery slope that we're in, right? whole naturalistic keeping or whatever. Oh, you're not keeping in a bio, you know, active vivarium. Oh, you're, you're not a good keeper. Oh, you don't, you don't give your animals a room to themselves. Oh, you're terrible. You know, like kind of that hypocritical, you know, like, oh, if you're not doing it, like I'm doing it, then you are not doing it right. Or you are not as good as, you know, well, and like man there's there's there's always people out there who want to set themselves apart you know at one point in time it was you know oh it was uh lineage charts oh if you don't have a lineage chart and you don't know

the history of the hearsay of where all your animals before it came from you're you know you're you're there's a million ways that people can yeah i mean yeah and it's new on what i mean come on man like like like you said in the beginning it's just snakes and boxes right yeah but you know we're keeping it's it's it's it's live animals right it's it, you know, so, you know, I mean, we have some onus for efficacy in the way that we keep and treat animals. So, you know, I mean, I, you know, we would, we would feel that it's morally reprehensible if somebody kept animals in squalor conditions and, you know, didn't, didn't, you know, provide them access to clean water regularly and didn't clean their cages and didn't do those. It didn't provide them the proper heating and lighting conditions like that.

That would be unheard of. You know, that would be be you know uh shout them down from the sky type of thing but yet yeah but take it the other way and then you run into like zoos mandating a water bowl be in every cage and have fresh water at all times even for things that never drink out of a water right and right wouldn't know what to do with a water bowl, you know, and almost can be damaged by the water bowl if it spills in their dry, arid environment, you know, so, you know, you can take it to the other extreme as well. And so, you know, to say, yeah, I think that's kind of, you know, where do we draw the line and how do we get that line? And that's the tricky thing, because I think it seems like, you know, people weren't jumping the jag ship when jags were worth a lot of money.

I think you have a point that, yeah, we'll we'll we'll put up with that as long as there's money to be made. But as soon as the prices go down, then it's like, oh, we can't be breeding these things. It's too it's too unethical. I mean, it's unarguable that the moral compass of the reptile community points towards money. Like there's no argument there. So here I produced a blue-tongued skink that had some birth defects. It was a little, I don't know how to describe it, kind of just misproportioned. And so I gave it to my cousin.

My cousin's daughter was looking for a blue tongue skink. And, and she, I said, well, if you'll take good care of this one, you can have it. And so she, Oh, perfect. And she gave it its own Instagram and like, it has more followers than I do. You know, like she's one of those lizard mom type, you know, but she takes wonderful care of it and, and it's a happy and thriving and, you know, living its best life. So, you know and but she takes wonderful care of it and and it's uh happy and thriving and you know living its best life so you know we could i could have said well this thing's messed up and i'm not gonna you know promote your promote that kind of ideal or whatever but you know i think there we can still i think you got to be careful there though though. And I understand what you're saying. And I do agree with you. And, you know, anybody who's bred anything enough knows that some stuff just comes out messed up. You know, eventually you're going to have an animal that has some kind of an issue. And that's exactly what you're talking about. And I agree. I 100% agree. You got to find a home for that, right?

That's not the question. And I think it's a nuanced thing where what we're talking about is mutations that we know, we know X amount of times comes out completely fucked up. You know what I mean? Or you can barely get these things to breed, and when they breed, you may get a clutch of eggs, but the animals that it comes from, it may never breed. There's just those lines. I feel like granites were limped along for a long time. And I think there's some that are much better now, but, um, there's there, it seems like there was lines, at least when I had granites that were just weak. Yeah. They sucked. The females would die trying to lay eggs

or things like that. And, and, and we, and I think the, the main, the main problem with those kinds of things is when you have a breeder that doesn't disclose those things when they know well and when do breeders disclose those things because no i never i mean you know what i mean that's the hard thing is is do you say oh well maybe it needs to be outbred or maybe maybe this is just a weird example or maybe you know maybe it's not very widespread so it's i i understand it's difficult on the side of the breeder and i mean you remember you remember that mp post where karosky was like hey has you know he he got into jags early and um he was like hey has anybody else noticed they're a little like screwy and you know people were like yeah i did

yeah i did and anthony caponetto was like, no, no, never. No, no. And he absolutely denied it, denied it, denied it. And so finally, it was like the tsunami of people who were like, no, these things are fucked up. And he's like, OK, yeah, I knew they were fucked up like that. I mean, it was just like he still thinks that tigers are are a co-dominant thing so oh my god yeah he'll yell at you until he's blue in the face telling you that you're wrong if he doesn't even keep him he doesn't even fucking keep him anymore well and see and he was always more i

mean gosh dang the last time i talked to him he just i don't know how many times he said do you know how much i make or do you know how much I make? Or do you know how much money? Yeah, exactly. He's focused on the money. The moral compass ports towards money. I don't want to get into freaking Caponetto. But anyway, that's, yeah, I lose my train of thought. But you see my point. You see my point. Yeah, I do.

Is that there is a moral issue around this and you know when i got into granites uh my animals were weak i didn't know that nobody disclosed that i know there's issues and other mutations that are in carpets that nobody talks about and people figure it out when they pay tons of money for an animal that they find out later is got some issues i think that's where they're crossing the line on the ethical scale you know i don't think the animals themselves are necessarily you know and i guess i don't know do do we do we stop if there were no jags anymore would that be better or worse or just neutral? Would it be bad? I, I, I,

I don't know. I think, I don't think so. The world might be a better place with Jags in it. I don't know. They're kind of, I think the world might be a better place if people were just focusing on breeding nice coastals.

I think you can do, you know, I think you can do, you know, I, I mean, for like the Pandora's box is open. They're out there. Sure. there absolutely do we just say everybody stop breeding jags and not breed them anymore because they have neurological

defects some i mean some are severe others are okay i you know i i guess that's my thing is do we do we take it to that extent and say hey let's make some legislation we don't want to let people in europe did so i mean obviously obviously you know obviously governing bodies look at this from an ethical perspective as well and you know is that fair should they be meddling in it that's a we could have a whole other fight club on that. You know what I mean? But, but, um, but it's not, you know, just to say, well, who are you to say that, you know, what's ethically right and wrong. Like, well, it's an easy target too, because they can say, oh, look at, look at this poor snake. Oh, he's, he's spinning around and falling off his perch.

You know, why, why are we doing this to these animals? You know? And I think that's, you know, pandering a little bit, you know, why are we doing this to these animals you know and i think that's you know pandering a little bit you know trying to say it's it's like the the the commercials of the hsus you know like making everybody's heartstrings tug because these poor puppies you know and then they don't even use the donations to help puppies you know they're they're just trying to pass laws or something but they're using something like this making again much ado about nothing i don't know no i i get that i get that and and you know that is how you know that is how wildlife are protected that is how i mean

people pull on heartstrings that's that's how that shit works. But, you know, again, it goes back to what is important in some sort of a standard. There needs to be a standard, right? We should have a standard. Zoos have standards. It's so hard to make a standard, you know what I mean? Well, of course it's hard. Because why? Because we have people who morally have flexible standards.

Should pandas be allowed to go extinct because they can't seem to, or because we've ruined all their habitat and they can't live in the wild or, you know, that kind of thing? I don't know. I mean, there's all sorts of, you know, do we, do we, what was I, I was, I heard a podcast where they're talking about the, there are some skinks and a gecko on Christmas Island, the one that's by Australia. And I, one of the zoos in Australia went to great lengths and, and cost and, you know, spent a lot of money to make a breeding facility at the zoo to perpetuate these, these animals and keep them from extinction until the time that they could,

you know, rid the island of some pest or something so they could, you know, put the animals back on the island. And, and while that's, you know, I think that's, I think it's worthwhile. I think that's a great thing. You know, a lot of people could just say, well, who cares? It's just a stupid skink or a gecko or something. You know, I, I think that, that the, the jag, you know, itself, that mutation and the, and the beauty of it or whatever has some merit has something that, you know, I don't want to just see it disappear. You know what I mean? Just because there's a, but I am not willing to sacrifice the beauty and the awesomeness of normal coastals to see that you don't have to, Well, don't you? No. Because the ones that are not jags are nice, beautiful coastals.

But isn't the problem. You don't have neurologic defense, right? Can I finish? I don't know. Can you? Will it include a name drop? That's all I'm wondering. Okay.

All right, Joolander. Proceed, my liege. okay all right you proceed my leash so look you know some some some freaking jockey doctor i know is so fond of talking about how the problem with morphs is somebody's gonna breed them to everything with a fucking cloaca and then they fuck up all the all the normal phase animals right and then now he's on the other side of the fence and he's like what what argument what argument i didn't see any argument okay anyway yes yes it's an issue because people are creating you know more jags integrate animals and and that detracts from the work that happens on normal coastals and and you're breeding those because people are focusing on the morph which is inherently has issues whether you agree with those issues or whatever the level of you can still breed coastals like this you can but look

it's about energy expended doing something right and if jags weren't there our energy would not be expended breeding something that is twacked out well jags aren't really there anymore like who's working with jags oh my god you just went from oh my god no i'm just saying like you know pick a line pick a line and hold the line and not very many people are working with them anymore why no why why are not many people there's no money in them anymore yes there's no money in them and they're whacked out there so if there was money in them people would be fuckingacked out. So if there was money in them, people would be fucking up

normal coastals to make fucking money off of twacked out fucking animals. Well, they've moved on to some other mutation. It's not a gag call. Because there's money in that other twacked out fucking thing. But there's still, in my opinion,

and from this side of the argument... I don't know how you're arguing this with a straight face anymore oh god there's there is some inherent value for for the jag and for the the look because it gets to perpetuate itself it's twacked out self because people still want to limp this problem child along if they would just not produce it. I mean, my contention is any mutation that is that messed up is going to work itself out. It's going to be gone if it has that many problems. Jags just don't have that many problems. They breed just fine. They produce babies just fine. There's plenty of Jags to be found. You know, if you, if you want to make them, they're not hard to make. They don't, they're not so messed up that they can't make more of themselves. So I guess that's my contention is if they can produce offspring, they can pass on

their genetic information, they can live their best life.'s to say that that's that's wrong or that's that's a bad thing to perpetuate because if we're moving in a direction we all have to kind of say like all right what are the positives and negatives of the direction we're moving in and i've heard you culture ever done that. I know. And I've, I've seen, and I've seen you pull your hair out time and again because they don't. And I agree with you. I lost the coin toss. I got to go with what I got.

I got you, man. I got you, but I gotta, I gotta point this stuff out, you know, but I, I,

I still maintain that I would rather see some form of jaguar at some point in the future. I don't want them to disappear completely. Not that I think they should be mass produced. But, I mean, they're cool looking snakes. There's some really cool combinations, you know, that kind of thing. But if they weren't here, if they weren't a thing, would carpets suffer because of it? I say maybe five years ago, maybe a little. Now, no.

Who cares? Nobody was really excited about Coastals before Jags came along, really. I mean, they were kind of the trash carpet for a lot of people right i mean they're kind of the the dark horse right nobody really wanted to yeah very few people wanted to work i won't say nobody because of course you like coastals i love coastals i think people love the coolest like there's some gorgeous coastals out there i think people would get busy if people would get busy breeding good coastals they would see how fucking amazing they can get like that's the fucking problem is people are wasting their time breeding jags when they should be refining regular coastals

and and but if it's not jags it's it's hypos right it's caramels it's it's the it's it's not jags, it's hypos. Right. It's caramels. It's a morph thing. It's not necessarily a jag thing. I guess I'm trying to decouple the argument that, oh, the jags ruin coastals. No, the jags didn't ruin coastals. The focus on morphs ruined the coastal projects to to a large extent i agree with that it's easy to get a single gene animal to make more of that beautiful thing and i have no issue with tigers i have no issue with caramels i mean look caramels you know this stuff came out of wild populations like it's not it's not something that you know like i i think that

caramel red tiger all that stuff is in gene flow in in wild population it's not something you know it's not this is not something that's humanly unique so you know what we're talking about but but jaguars are not okay i would I would disagree with that. There's, there's genetic reduced, you know, pattern animals in the wild. Jaguars are in the wild, like animals that you would look at and say, that's a Jag, you know, you can see those in the wild. I'm not saying it's, you know, it's not, it's not impossible to see you know a carpet like that in the wild okay that's fair that's fair it's just we have not seen a jaguar come out of the wild or or australia has not pulled a jaguar why hmm i don't know there's probably i'll give you that yeah they're not

going to be very fit in the wild if they're falling off their branch and making lots of noise you know they're going to get picked off by a predator pretty quick but we're not going to be very fit in the wild if they're falling off their branch and making lots of noise. You know, they're going to get picked off by a predator pretty quick. But we're not the wild again. We're keeping snakes in boxes. So as long as you're getting enjoyment out of that. And I mean, to say that the snake is suffering, that's a that's a little bit of a stretch. You know, I mean, I think I also but I also think that I think that's a a that's a that's a funny argument, too, because you're right.

Who's to say it's suffering, but who's to say it's not? You know, I mean, you can kind of hide behind the veil of, well, you don't know what it's feeling. You're not in its head like you can also say it's it's breeding. It's eating. It's I mean, if it's it's breeding it's eating it's i mean if it was miserable would it be able to do any of those well but yeah yeah but but if it if it wouldn't breed if it wouldn't breed and it wouldn't eat we wouldn't be talking about this exactly yeah i mean it would be they've done very well there's plenty of like i said plenty of jaguars have been produced just because you can eat and you can-

Much more than granites or super zebras and things like that, right? I mean, yeah, obviously- I think the question is you can still eat and you can still breed. I think the question is quality of life, right? And you can still perform those basic functions. I don't know. I don't know i don't know i'm just saying that there is you know and i don't set that standard i'm not saying that like i'm you know i'm i know

what that standard is but somebody's gonna set it you know if we if we have a good argument to say look you know yeah they're they're they have a genetic defect or they have a neurologic um defect european wildlife regulators said i know i don't know but so but what are they basing that on they don't keep them you know it's like if if somebody gets gets in you know some hair in their derriere then they're gonna hairier make those kind of calls but is it is it correct i i would argue it's not correct but well i don't you know i mean i shouldn't be making laws against keeping these things but again though again though it's a it's it you know it's a it's some degree of where the line gets drawn right so maybe jag So maybe Jags aren't quite the line,

but then where is the line? You know what I mean? And that's what I'm saying is like, I feel like the line is nowhere as long as the line, you know, isn't clear. It's the same, you know, like it's kind of the same thing with you know uh as long as as long as we can keep debating whether climate change is real there's no reason to actually act

on on doing anything about it if there's still a debate about where where what is it real is it really happening is there an issue well we don't know well how can you act if you don't even know if there's a problem right so like i feel like it's it's there's it's kind of on that one yeah no and and that's what i'm saying is but but that was a tactic for a long time of you know fossil fuels and polluters to say like oh there's the the science isn't out and they full well had good data that the science is absolutely and i mean yeah that's i mean yeah that and then that gets everything gets conflated with you know the the people who are the ones who are polluting and making money off of that they're the ones that are going to argue the hardest and and fossil fuel and fossil fuel producers and extractors were full well knew the issues, but they muddy the waters because why? Because their compass points towards profit.

Yeah. And profit is the issue. Yeah. I think like other I think we're spending a lot of time talking about Jags. And of course, there's's other you know different uh i guess what what most people would or some people at least would consider what else have you heard that's fucked up messed up like you know like the duck bills i think you should drop i think you should name drop now give me give me some morphs that are fucked up that people don't know come on come on come on well the people don't know i don't i don't know come on i don't keep horse anymore really and we have got albinos i think what are albino carpets are a little more ornery or something i've heard but oh dude that's a fair statement angry pissed off but like you know i i think

you know the super cinnamons with kind of the duck bill that's that people don't like the look of that and so they say oh you know we shouldn't be breeding those but you know it's again i i bring back that that bearded dragon out in the outback with the hunchback you know or the the goofy blue tongue i produced you know sometimes those things yeah they're they're gonna look a little off but i think that endears them to some people uh some keepers that have a big heart and don't let some malformation or genetic defect't say wild, in captive animal producing, you know, the AKC for dogs has a standard of what a dog should look like for their breed, right? And so we set these standards of what those are. So if it's coming out with a duck bill or something like that, that is not standard for what a ball python, you know. But some of those standards look, right? Well, and I agree. Python, you know, if we were to put it.

Right. No, I agree. I mean, the bulldogs can't even give birth on their own. They have to be. They're so jacked up. And that's what I'm saying is right. It's an artificial standard, right?

It is, you know, we're, we're setting these standards. And basically a lot of those standards are set. Yeah. Back when, back in the 1500s or something. There have been newer breeds that have been introduced, and they create a standard for what it should look like. But you're right. Some of these pug dogs, they can't even breathe, and they don't live very long because of the issues that they have. But it's like in their standard. You know what I mean?

Or the size of the dog. Like the Great danes have hip problems and don't live very long because of you know i i think yeah it's it's hard to say and obviously like a a great dane with hip issues that only lives you know a certain amount of time well does that mean we shouldn't have great danes or we should get rid of them or stop breeding them? No, it means that we should ethically disclose and work to, you know, I mean, breeders should be testing their dogs for hip dysplasia and things like that and disclosing it. That's what a good breeder does, right? Yeah, but it's part of the mutation, part of the gigantism. And so if you produce a dog that has whatever, I don't know how they determine that test for hip dysplasia, but if you get a test and says the dog has a high likelihood of hip dysplasia, then you can still sell the dog, but you have to disclose that it has that issue. But why not just stop breeding the breed if there's those issues?

It's the same argument against keeping jags, right? To say we shouldn't breed jags because a certain number of them have these severe neurologic defects, where the majority don't. You know, the majority have very slight. And as you pointed out, where's the line? Yeah. You know, we like the thing. We want the thing. But where the line of ethical, you know, because I do think that there are dogs, if we're using the dog argument, that probably borderline on not good. Like it's not ethical.

Or that have developed further than they than the original standards were set like what was spuds mckenzie he was that oh uh bull terrier yeah he's a bull terrier kept getting longer and longer like more you know and it just kept going until they were having issues you know until they look like ant eaters yeah exactly and now you look at like what the trend is and it's and it's the what we would have called mutts back in the day except now they have fancy names like golden doodle or you know and everybody is charging a million dollars people got smart and we're like wait we can outcross this stuff and we'll shore it up but we'll sell it as a new thing oh my god that's genius like that would have been like the the reject mutt back in our day

and this is why i'm like hey man you know uh integrate carpets are awesome like we just need to get everybody else on that and then people people will be like, oh, yeah, these things look crazy. They're awesome. Hybrid figure. Hybrid figure. Yeah, exactly. They have hybrid figure. They're bulletproof.

Like, oh, my God, that's amazing. You know? I don't know. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of things to consider and think of. So before you go and condemn a morph, you know, and say nobody should be breeding it, give it a little thought. Think about what we said and either side of the argument. Get those twacker jackers out of here, man. You don't need them. No way. Later. Zeke Heil, mein fuhrer. Take a short walk off a derpy perch, man.

All right. Well, this was an interesting topic for sure. Thanks again, James, for the suggestion. We had fun. I hope I didn't hurt Chuck's feelings, though. No, no, no. No, no. Good, good.

He can hold his own. Yeah. Well, anything else to say? I am done with you, no. Good, good. He can hold his own. Yeah. Well, anything else to say? I am done with you, sir. All right. I thought so. I thought as much. You and your compass. All righty.

Well, thanks for listening, everybody. We appreciate it. Or sir or ma'am or whoever is our one listener. Um, we, uh, would like to thank Morelia Python radio, uh, for sponsoring our podcast and for having us on their platform, uh, check out their content. Um, their site is moreliapythonradio.com and, uh, they've got a lot of good stuff.

The merch. Yeah. The content, the pod father, the Mac and Wookie. I haven't heard that one before. That's, that's a good one.

I like right now. It just happened right now. Mac and Wookie pod father, the Mac and Wookie.father the mac and wookie all right we got it oh he's gonna be happy about oh he's gonna love this one oh good stuff did you see the the i think it was lucas that made a photoshop version of of bigfoot with owen's face on it oh i gotta check this out where is this i got to check this out. Where is this?

I'll have to dig this up and find it. I think I might have saved it. It was pretty funny. But Mac and Wookie, that's a good title for that artwork that Lucas did. Bam. You're welcome. You're welcome. All righty. Well, that made this one worthwhile.

Hopefully, people listening to the end will get that nice little treat. All righty. Well, that's for a very small... Well, I guess they've got a pretty big audience. Oh, no. Yes. This could travel a little far and wide. There you go.

We'll see how it takes off. All right, my friend. Thank you. And it was good fighting takes off. All right, my friend. Thank you. And it's good fighting with you. All right. Dr. Derp and I are out. so We'll see you next time. Bye.