Reptile Fight Club - Reptile Fight Club takes on Mental Health in Keeping Reptiles

Episode Date: March 26, 2022

In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the topic of Mental Health in Keeping Reptiles.Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to the episode of Reptile Fight Club. I'm your host, Justin G. Linden. And with me as always... Back on the horn. Chuck Poland is here, in the house Chuck Poland is here in the house. Well, not in the house, but... I'm in my house. He's in his house.

Yes. And I'm in my house. That's right. We are in the house. But pretty soon, we are going to be in the same car herping, so that's going to be cool. That's correct. In another couple of weeks, i'm itching to get out there for sure yeah no i i uh it'll be a good time it will be a good time it'll be fun

we'll have a good time yeah to uh get to kick it with the pod father yeah yeah it'll be fun yeah yeah and rob you got to see rob in action man he's i i can't wait to see all of you in action i've i've i've heard these stories about you the mild-mannered doctor who becomes an animal in the night so i i'm waiting i'm waiting to see it yeah well hopefully you'll did you almost just yawn right now yeah i'm a little tired yeah i got you in a bit of a week dude i don't know I don't know if it's just getting older or whatever, but this time change, like it, it messed me up for two days straight. Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh, I'm excited to get back. So next week I'm, I'm in Seattle for a conference, so I'll be gaining an hour back cause I'm going to Pacific time. That's the only way you get your hour back. Exactly. And then the week after I'm

going to California, so I'll be getting it back as well yeah um they just passed legislation to make it permanent so so nobody's having it i don't know can somebody okay so okay so and i i don't was i talking about this with you but i'm like i don't i remember so i was born in indiana and i remember daylight savings time always being a thing since i was a kid but i remember that other places didn't do it and so i always had this thing of like we were weird in indiana because we did it and i never understood why and i think it was you i was talking to and you had said like oh it's about farming or something and i what is it about oh well my wife says that's a myth that It's not about farming. That's a myth. Oh, well, my wife says that's a myth, that it's not about farming. Mythbusters.

We didn't start Daylight Savings until 2006? I feel like Indiana was doing it far before 2006. Oh, yeah. I had it when I was a kid. Yeah, me too. Me too. I don't know. Well, my wife's almost always right.

Yeah. So, yeah, I don't know. It's weird. What I want is to get to the bottom of the why of daylight savings time. So if any of the listeners out there. We'll have to cover that on a future episode. Yeah, I guess. Or somebody, you know, maybe Dr. Lofman.

I don't know. I need somebody smart here. Help us out. How can we relate this to reptiles? Yeah. Daylight savings reptiles. I don't enjoy it, so I'm glad they're going to get rid of it. Hopefully that's like a nationwide thing.

For anybody that doesn't know what daylight savings is, every year in the spring, we move forward an hour. And so we basically lose an hour, you know, that you're, and so you got to wake up earlier and try to go to bed earlier, even though your body's telling you it's not that late. And then in the fall we fall back and gain an hour. And so then you, you've got an extra hour to sleep and it's really fun and nice and that's something to look forward to.

That's my only one. Yeah. Just, just a couple years ago it seems they they moved that window shorter so you had like between the fallback and the spring forward it was a shorter amount of time so i i don't know why they did that but it was like maybe that was a move towards getting rid of it but yeah anyway they're just they're just goalpost moving at this point they're like this is dumb but we're not really willing to give up okay fine now let's give up yeah so like for whatever reason we had it and for whatever reason we're getting rid of it yeah well one covet

epidemic and they're like fuck it fuck it we're not doing that shit anymore we're not doing dumb stuff anymore so now we'll still do dumb stuff that That's it. Oh yeah. That's a given. Oh, well. So yeah, I'm, I'm, uh, trying to get, get used to the new, the new time, I guess. And yeah, the new time used to waking up earlier and all that good stuff. So yeah, I'm always a little tired around this time of year, but, um, work's been pretty busy. I'm getting ready to go to a conference. So that'll be, yeah, hopefully I'm, I'll get in some little bit of herping time up there if it's, if it's warm enough or if stuff's out, but, um, hopefully I'll get to see some, some friends in the area. That'd be cool. Yeah. I was like, okay. So when you go to like a virology conference, do you have

colleagues that you're like, Oh Frank, I haven't seen you in forever. How are you doing? You know, like, so you, you, you, is it, is it, you know, I mean, I, I mean, I, I guess it's not a small community, but like, I would assume viral researchers know each other at some level. And I mean, the conference is like 300 people. So, you know, I don't know everybody, but I definitely know like, so I'm involved as the program chair. So I, you know, put together, say, you know, like, so I'm involved as the program chair. So I, you know, put together, say, you know, organize the committees who review the abstracts and then say who gets to give an oral presentation, who gets to give a poster. So I kind of get to, you know, I'm kind of involved in the organization of the meeting and things like that. So that's been fun. I've done that for the last few years. And, um, so that's been nice that the guy that I took over for, he was just a great man.

His name's Mark Pritchard. And he was really just a powerhouse in the antiviral field and just a really nice guy. And he was the one that was doing the program chair before me. So he trained me, but he passed away a couple of years ago. So that was kind of a sad loss. But, you know, so I trying to, trying to do, do justice to his shoes. Yeah, exactly. Trying to fill big shoes, but, um, so yeah, I mean, through that I've gotten to know and, and before, you know, when I was a grad student and when I was first, uh, you know, uh, research assistant professor, professor, I was the photographer for the society.

So I got to know a lot of people that way, you know, taking all the pictures for the awards and stuff like that. So I got to know some of the higher ups, the presidents and that kind of thing. So it was, you know, it was kind of a good introduction. And I've been going to this meeting since like 2000, 2001, somewhere around there. So it's a, it's a good meeting. Are you going to meet up with Casey or Ryan or anybody up there? Hoping to, uh, we'll see, see how it works out. I, I mean, Ryan's a little bit out of the way he and Nick are out kind of on the border of Idaho. So in the sticks, in the sticks. And I don't think I'll have a vehicle or anything like

that. So I'm kind of at the mercy of either Uber or, you know, that kind of thing. So I've, I've, uh, been chatting with Casey. Hopefully we can get together. Yeah. Come and get your boy Casey. Come on. Yeah. I'm sure a fan of that guy. He's a good guy. I know you, I know you're itching to see shingle backs and all kinds of stuff for sure. sure yeah i saw i saw you post up some of the shinglebacks uh oh yeah day or so yeah today maybe yesterday it's like ah so they're such cool lizards yeah yeah they're they're a fun one to see in the wild we saw quite a few of those in western australia but and they're they fairly common to see or um depends i I mean, in certain areas, yes. In one area, we saw several pairs. We could follow their tracks and you'd find them hunkered down

under some leaves or something like that. So yeah, there were quite a few locally abundant in that area. And I think there's like south australia there's places where you can see you know 50 in a day or something they're just all over the place i remember you saying that you that that dor uh yeah it's a real common thing so i figured that that you know that they're they're in abundance yeah one stretch i can and and maybe they just don't um disappear very quickly. I thought you were going to say dodge cars. Yeah, they don't dodge cars well. Obviously. But there were like, you know, 30 or something in, in like a kilometer stretch. It was not a, That's a lot. You know, there were way too many of it. And, you know, seeing those huge populations, you're like, you know, they only have one baby every year or two, you know, so it's like,

or one or two maybe. And, and so you just think how are their populations so big that they can withstand such an you know such a shellacking mortality exactly yeah so you know they're such cool animals so yeah it'd be it'd be uh hopefully i'll get a catch up with casey he's a great guy yep um other than that yeah it's just business as usual we're just trying to keep up with the the work and all that good stuff so how about you work work treating you all right yeah it works good we're busy we we uh we're doing a a big uh repair to an aircraft that the navy jacked up and so it's first, it's a first of its kind repair. So a lot of eyes, a lot of press and fanfare about it. So, and it's, it's going really well,

which is great credit to all, all the guys in the shop, but yeah, just that. And, and we've got another aircraft that the Nate, that, that the Marines, they had a, they had a, a landing gear that failed to come down. So they had to land on some mattresses on the nose of the aircraft. So they smushed, they smushed some stuff on the nose of the aircraft. So that's coming in for, for a PMI event. And then we're going to do some, some, some rework on that as well. So got some interesting projects, some fun stuff and, you know, but we're, we're busy and it's evaluation time so I've got to do performance

evals and some of my least that's not fun my least favorite stuff is telling people about themselves but it's nice when you can tell people good stuff but it's it's not always fun you got to tell people bad stuff so oh yeah not my favorite but yeah you know I don't have too many have to do so that's nice but so you know I guess reptile on the reptile side of things, if we, if we haven't scared everybody away talking about our, we do have lives outside. We do. We do not just do reptiles, but wake up, wake up if you're sleeping now. Yeah. Put you to sleep. You can stop your fast forward here about reptiles.

I, I got a clutch of Womam eggs i don't know if i mentioned that on the podcast yeah sweet dude but unfortunately like i've lost like four of the six eggs have crashed or maybe they were even seven how far one i knew was infertile at the get-go but the others i thought were good yeah now i'm down to two so i don't know maybe they just weren't that great it was a first time male, a second year for a female. And she produced last year. And she also had a retained egg in her last year's, or two years ago. I guess none of the asperidides went last year because I moved.

So two years ago, she laid. And she had a retained egg that she, she, um, had in there. I, I was debating, you know, surgical removal, cause sometimes that can not end well, but I've also had it where, you know, several months down the road, they'll pass the egg and she actually passed the egg. And so, um, you know, it was a couple months after she laid so i was a little worried but she got it out okay so i don't you know sometimes i i kind of let nature take its course but um you know other than i i just don't have much confidence in vets around here especially surgical procedures to remove an egg or something like that and i'm definitely not doing that myself i I just think that, you know, anytime you go, there's a reason, at least in humans, why

there's a course of treatment and it always involves therapy and, you know, drugs and all these other things that they run you through before they do surgery. Because generally speaking, you know, surgeries are, for certain things, are really effective. But, you know, anytime you got to cut somebody open uh in a you know in a fairly invasive way it tends to not be you know you you have some repercussions out of that and i think yeah i think that you know and throw in a non-reptile vet you're you're looking at very low success so yeah i agree with that that puts you in a difficult spot and you know maybe i should have driven to wherever i could find a competent reptile vet.

Do you have a good reptile vet around you at all? There's one that has some experience with reptiles. But, you know, it's like a lot of the vets where they have some. I don't know that they're going to know how to do a surgery you know yeah we did our university uh utah state just announced that we're gonna start a full veterinary degree program we have a two by two you know two-year program here and then they go to up to um washington for the next the you know the final two years um but now we're gonna have a full four four year program at our university. So that means, uh, teaching like veterinary hospital in our, in our Valley. And so that'll make, um,

veterinary costs come down quite a bit. I, I'm curious to see how the local vets are going to take that because, you know, that's always kind of a big competition and they're kind of out compete because you've got people kind of learning techniques but you also may have some more expertise at a teaching you know veterinary hospital where you can get maybe some uh people with reptile expertise so yeah i mean i think it's definitely i mean depending upon how you how your practice is structured, I could see you, you know, potentially having a good talent pool to pull from or it's a, or it makes competition kind of stiff, but.

Yeah. So we'll see, see how it works out. But, um, you know, right now the, the options are a little slim. Yeah. Um, yeah, I'm lucky. I don't have to, I got Dr thomas boyer out here he's a oh that's yeah he he uh he's big name yeah he's the yeah he's in he's in you know worked with mater and all those like just you know he's he's uh he's an old school uh reptile vet did did a lot

of work with the san diego zoo and so i'm lucky to have him around here, but yeah, that's cool. Haven't needed him much knock on wood, but that's good. Yeah. And then that's the, you know, once you get going, there's, there's not a ton of, you know, things that really require a lot of veterinary care. So that's been good. I haven't had too many issues, but on my, my black headed Python should be laying soon. I've't had too many issues, but, um, on my, my black headed Python should be laying soon. I've got a nest box or, you know, for, and she's been inverted quite a bit lately and, um,

contorting herself. So hopefully eggs are on the way. I'm, I'm worried that the eggs are going to come when I'm out of town and she won't wrap them up, but she's kind of remained in her nest box pretty well. So I've, I'm kind of training my daughter on what to look for and she's been checking on her and excited. So I told her just contain you. Yeah. So hopefully if she, you know, lays and she kind of wrote, uh, at least kind of wrap some a bit. Um, I may leave her with them until I get back, but otherwise I've got my daughter on standby and I told her just FaceTime me and we can work it out. But I taught her how to do it. So we'll see how that goes. Nice. Yeah. It's always seems to happen when I go

out of town. There's somebody that's going to lay eggs. No, that's, I mean, that's like, I feel like that's almost rule of you know rule of keeping is like big stuff happens when you're like on a trip or ready to go on a trip and you're like oh no this is going to be horrible and it ends up usually being okay yeah at least for me usually usually it's okay but it's like you know i'm more stressed than anything else it's it just equals more stress for me but you know asperities aren't the best mothers when it comes to eggs a lot of times they'll just lay them and go but yeah so hopefully the humidity within her hide will take care of that so i tried to get it get an

environment that would be suitable for the eggs in case uh that happens but yeah yeah and then uh have a few i've got a jungle that should be laying soon so i i haven't hatched out jungles for a while where is this what's where does this jungle come from this is the my kind of uh python pete it's the old python pete line okay cool cool and uh mixed in so i've got a is it Is it Python Pete, Python Pete? It's actually the zebra stuff. So I've got a zebra female and a Python Pete. Well, actually, it's a skunk flower. It's one of the skunk line, like striped background animals.

So hopefully I'll get some stripes out of this one. That'd be cool out of the parents some striped zebras would be kind of fun so yeah we'll see what happens but yeah yeah it'd be nice to produce some jungle what's what's the what what's the market like on zebras are people interested i have no clue i don't know what's going on like i'm just like if it's normal okay but i don't know i don't i think they well, and these are going to be nice, nicely colored tigras. I don't know. I mean, I think normal jungles are – they're probably not much more than normal jungles.

But normal jungles still sell pretty well. And I plan on holding on to them a little bit, let them color up a little because they always sell better that way. That's how you do it, man. That's how you do it. Yeah, exactly. I like watching them grow up and change and get colors and i probably want to hold on to one or two maybe so um yeah you sit there and you say like oh i gotta hold on to these and you're like what am i doing i can't hold on to all these and then

you know and it is kind of fun like you know when i when i hatched out that that andrew hairline that i had and just sending really killer jungles to people. And they were just pumped. Like, you know, it's just like, Oh yeah, you had some nice, I got, yeah, they just, it just makes people's like, you know, it makes their day, you know? Yeah. So, so I, yeah, hopefully I've got a, an inland or two that'll lay. I'm, I'm, um, not as confident on those, but we'll see that, see you know i've got them together i've seen i've seen some locks so that's a good sign that's good things are moving in the right direction but um what else uh pygmy python should be laying soon some some other anteresia uh cool wheat belt stimpsons yeah things are things are progressing so before long i'll be up to my eyeballs and and snakes and lizards

i hope there you go that's yeah good problems to have i'm really excited about the agurnia stuff hopefully this the spiny-tailed skinks produced this year that'd be fun to get some of those maybe the tree skinks uh so see what happens yeah nice nice yeah and and ben uh told me or he he announced that he's working i think he was on a podcast what was that it was i listened to him a little while back and um gosh now that's gonna bother me but maybe it was lizard brain radio something like that anyway ben announced that he's got a genetic test for uh you know reptile genetic services is developing a test for skinks to no cool you know you know that's a skink yeah that'll be huge yeah i've collected some shed skins from known sexes and some unknowns to see you know my god

all people's unsexed bullshit falls away. Oh, wow. So that'll be nice. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. To see how that works. And for him, that's awesome. If that happens, I'm going to be a customer for sure.

Oh yeah, definitely. Those shed skins from the skinks. That'd be nice to be able to sell sex babies. Yeah. Cause it's even hard when they're adults to know what you got. You know, I go back and forth on some and then you put them with the opposite sex and sometimes they, you know, the behavior is really clear and other times they don't do anything. You're like, well,

what does this mean? Yeah. So it's tricky. Yeah. So, um, how about you, what you got on the reptile front? Um, yeah, still kind of unsure about the tracy a just kind of they're not you know i'm just i mean you know um not really doing not really doing their behaviors this year like they were so it might might be a bust year uh for those but uh the looks like the female coastal that's kept outside is gonna lay some eggs this year. So yeah, I went out, she looks like she's probably, uh, uh, close to a prelay shed. So are you going to let her internally incubate? Man, I don't know this, you know, I feel like, I feel like we could have a show on this, but, um, we should, yeah, we should, we should, shouldn't we? Uh, but, but, uh, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I, I, I am not typically the maternal incubator type,

but I certainly, I, I, I don't know. I, I don't know. I don't know. Well, where they're outside and natural settings, you know, let her try it out. Yeah. I guess, I guess again, I guess you got to pay attention when the babies are due, right. Could they step out of the enclosure? Yeah. Or is the mesh small enough?

I mean, it's, it's, it's quarter, it's quarter inch mesh. So, you know, I mean, it, you know, I'd hate for them to try to get out of it and get stuck in it or something like that, but. That would not be fun to go out and see a bunch of babies halfway through the mesh or something. That'd be horrible, dude. That'd be bad. Freaking going through the mesh or something horrible dude that'd be bad but i mean going through the meat grinder i guess they usually hang out for a bit with the female so

maybe they'd be well yeah kind of dispersed i guess after they start hatching the female i mean i'm sure they're gonna go check it yeah i mean it's you know like so i don't know we'll see if we get some eggs that'd be cool that's and, you know, if, if the, if the male still, you know, plug in with lead, then, you know, that'll be, that'll be a potentially a pretty cool clutch of at least lineage stuff from, you know, Luke, Luke Snell's red line. So that'd be kind of cool. Very nice. so yeah i know i know eric had said he would be interested in something oh yeah because his red line comes from from that that uh that snell red line so yeah that's cool yeah so uh we'll see we'll see how that goes we'll see how everything else goes i'm usually the overly pessimistic type about stuff i mean it doesn't

look horrible with other stuff but you know i i always get faked out until the end where i'm like oh nope nope nope it's good it's good it's definitely good like so yeah you know yeah i think that's everybody yeah yeah so but but not you know like this this year is definitely i wouldn't be surprised if it's a bust with the tracy a just because the the females bit but you know i mean i don't know we we had we had some some uh weather events and and you know the female was just like cruising around the cage and wasn't like you know it was very like oh what are you doing this is not this is not what you're supposed to be doing. And, but, you know, I, I, she's in a, she's in her nest box now hanging out and, you know, I, I kind of peeked my head in there, but you know, I'm, I'm, it's, it's,

you know, she's kind of in that in-between where I'm like, okay, could be something going on here, but maybe not, you know? So it's like, I don't know. You know what I mean? I just, I just kind of like, okay, well it's going to be what it's going to be. Okay, fine. You know? So we'll see. Yeah. Well I'm rooting for you. I think a lot like, okay, well, it's going to be what it's going to be. Okay, fine. You know, so we'll see. Yeah. Well, I'm rooting for you. I think a lot of people are.

So thanks, man. Yeah. I mean, it really would be nice. And I mean, like I said, you know, uh, one more clutch and I'll, I'll start giving people animals. So, um, yeah, it'll be a, well, then I'm sure a lot more just started rooting for you too. Good stuff. All right. Well, should we, should we start fighting?

Yeah, let's fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight. So I guess as a little introduction, we're going to talk about mental health. So this was a topic that was suggested by somebody and I, it came through Eric. Somebody talked to Eric Burke. Oh, it was through Eric. That's why I couldn't find it. I was looking on all our messages and stuff, trying to figure out where this idea came from.

So I guess if- Oh my gosh. Hey, hey, hey. If it was your idea- I'm recording over here. If it was your idea, let us know. We can give you credit or maybe. Yeah.

But anyway, thank you for your suggestions. And we've got, we've been getting some really nice suggestions from, from some, some of the listeners. So that's been nice. But yeah, we're going to talk about mental health and kind of how reptile keeping can contribute positively or, or negatively to our mental health. So I think this is an important topic. And, you know, I think you need to watch for kind of some of the stressors or things that can negatively impact your mental health when keeping reptiles.

So we're going to kind of discuss the pros and cons of reptile keeping and mental health while, when keeping reptiles. So we're going to kind of discuss the pros and cons of reptile keeping and mental health. So It definitely can make you go Edward Norton. That's right. So we'll, we'll try a little little fight club reference for anybody. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Okay. Well, you ready to call the task on theory? Come on. Let's see.

Okay. Ready? Okay. Go for it. Tails. Oh, it's heads. See? But did you throw it extra high this time?

I don't. You did. You totally did. You totally did. That was subconscious. I'm sure. No, it was not. Well, I told you.

I gave you the game. You gave me I told you, I gave you the game. I gave you the game. So it's fine. I mean, I just wanted you to know what power I have in the coin toss right now. It's not only will I win, but I'll let you know how to win. Okay. Well, man, I guess I'm pretty okay discussing either side i think there's good well you won so pick i'll take the negative impacts the negative impacts yeah

so i'm taking the positive impacts impact of reptile keeping reptiles okay okay okay and you know based on the tradition you've said, I'll let you go first. All right. Well, you know, I mean, I think as reptile keepers, we can all hopefully see some of the positive impacts of keeping reptiles. I think it gives you an appreciation for, you know, all different forms of animals and reptiles being so different from humans and other mammals. It kind of gives you a, you know, a different perspective. It kind of makes, at least for me, it makes me more kind of inquisitive about, you know, form and function of biology, you know, through time and, you know, how, you know, how kind of the how we got here story. It, you know, it definitely brightens my mental when I see,

you know, my lizards doing something kind of interesting or fun or watching them watching their behaviors or just, you know, like when I get, you know, my diamonds shut out and it's just like, oh, man, that is fucking awesome right there. You know, just just beautiful, beautiful things that, you know, just stuff that is, you know, awesome and majestic. And we can have, you know, in our in our in our in our life and in our in our house and and you know we can interact with it and and uh you know it just it just uh can can be a a different positive experience i think everybody you know most of the world is familiar with the dogs and the cats and

the you know the mammals and the but you know to have a unique experience um with what you know is considered exotic uh by by a majority of other people is is you know something to me that's like a really you know i think most people would look at it like oh that's whoa what no you keep snakes in your house like yeah it's fucking awesome so you know uh it's a it's for me it's a boost for my mental i i uh i mean obviously this is probably not gonna be a true fight because i think you know we both share god damn man you're giving up the goods right out the gate. Kumbaya comes at the end. Obviously, I keep reptiles and I enjoy it thoroughly. And it does that for me, too.

I mean, my Instagram is just pictures of pretty snakes and lizards and other animals in nature. You know, even just landscapes do my heart good, you know, uh, do really good for my mental health, but definitely there are aspects of keeping reptiles that, that can really, uh, test your, you know, fortitude, I guess, or your mental health. And, and sometimes, you know, it can even push you over the edge to where you just don't want to keep anymore. And so I think this is more of a debate on, you know, things to watch out for, things to look for and in regards to keeping reptiles and maintaining a good level of mental health. Now, I think one thing that, you know, a lot of new keepers experience when they start keeping reptiles is can, can come from, you know, uh, the other older keepers that

have been doing it for a long time. They want to get in, but sometimes the groups are a little snooty or like, Oh, you're, you're just a newbie. You can't keep this. This is way beyond your, you know, capacity. And so I think it turns off a lot of people, uh, to, to keeping reptiles when they try, they're all excited about a group of reptiles and they come in and try to find people who have that like interest like uh interest and then they find them and then the the those people are jerks to them you know i call that the caponetto oh shots fired i'm sure he's a big listener to our show. I bet he's not. Yeah. I think the last time I talked to him anyway, was it great? Was it a great experience? It was not anyway. We, we, um,

so I think, you know, if you're coming into the, into the hobby, you know, make sure you have a little bit of a thick skin, but also if you've been in the hobby for a while, you know, let's, let's be a little more welcoming and, and, you know, kind to those. I'm sorry, Andrew. Better, better, better. Well, no, no. You're okay there. You're okay. He, he deserves what he, what he gets, I think. All right. But anyway, so yeah, let's be more welcoming. My bad. Yeah. Yeah, that was. That played in perfectly.

Yeah. Because no, I mean, there are definitely personalities in the reptile keeping hobby. And I think they almost do it on purpose because they have that attitude of any press is good press. And so they're inflammatory on purpose. And look, we know people who live in chaos, right? They thrive off the chaos. And I feel like all shapes and sizes we get here.

And those people are not necessarily good for your mental health. If you engage with them or try to fight them or try to argue with people online. Yeah. I mean, Facebook arguments are pretty much pointless. You know, any, any online arguments are pointless because you're not going to change anybody's mind and it just makes you look bad to half the people that, you know, know there's something. It just doesn't end well. And I have learned that the hard way because I like to engage it once in a while, you know? And so, but yeah, that's, that's something that definitely contributes negatively to

mental health. Oh, I mean, I, I'm fairly, I think it's fairly safe to say that I was known as an instigator at some point. You? What? Oh my goodness. No. You know, I, I try to, it's so, it's so, so, uh, so, you know,

I mean, I get it. It's just one of those things where, uh, you know, you, you can't, uh, you can't let, you can't let, uh, other people influence you, your mental health when it comes to, you know, reptiles and, and, you know, the drama and all the, you know, I'll be honest, like that was one of the reasons why I slimmed down my collection and kind of stepped away from, you know, doing a lot of carpets and stuff like that. Cause it was just such a, and which my fault for getting caught up in it. Right. Like you just, if you can just, you know, and, and it was cool.

Like I stepped away for a little bit and, you know, and, and it was cool. Like I, I stepped away for a little bit and you know, like I, I would say my headspace wasn't good when, when I had, you know, a lot of animals and was just over people's fucking bullshit. And I'm like, all right, I'm fucking done with this. I'm fucking done. Fuck this shit. And you know, I maybe had, I had my Tracy a and then I had those coastals and I didn't really have too much else, you know? Um, and back through those animals, I helped that help those, you know, the Tracy helped really reconnect me with keeping reptiles and saying like, okay, you know what? No,

this is something I enjoyed. This is something I want to do. And, you know, the working with it, you know, like I get something out of it. And I think when you get turned off and your mental space is bad, you know, you can push away from those reptiles and you're doing the minimum. You're not engaging like you used to. But if you can find your way back into that, it helps you reconnect with like, oh, my God, these are amazing. Oh, my God, I get so much out of this. Oh, my gosh. And then you're kind of like, oh, man. And I feel like what I'm saying is probably something that everybody's experienced if you've done this long enough where you're like, ah, I had to step away for a while

to like catch my breath and realize how much I still enjoy this, how much I still really want to do this. And I want to be fair to the animals. And I think, you know, obviously everybody's going to have a negative headspace and, you know, negative mental health at some point in their life. Sure. Bar none, bar none. I mean, everybody. So, you know, um, doing what you have to do to keep your headspace positive, no shame in that game, right? You know, don't bite the damn bullet. Uh, you know, if things are bad and just keep pushing a bad, you know, uh, making things worse by that, right? Like do what you have to do. And, and I think, you know i think a

lot of people will see that that that the community is out there to support um you know and there's you know there there's definitely people who who are your friend and and do care about you um and you know i mean i'm not gonna lie there's still people out there who are like don't give a shit about you but because you have animals they give a shit about you. I mean, that's, that's, that's, that's the way, that's the way some of it is, but there are really people who are out there who are your friend and who are really down for you. And I think, you know, those are people who will help you out if you're,

if you're kind of in that spot where it's like, I can't do this anymore, you know? And, and, and I think that's the, you know, being able to say that you're not in a good place because of, for whatever reason, however you got there, right? Because the monotony of keeping reptiles is a difficult thing, right? Yeah. And I, I think that leads me to my next topic is that, you know, a lot of people, when they get into reptiles, they're so excited because there's so many cool reptiles that they just start buying buying buying you know and i i remember when i first started i you know i started with bearded dragons because i saw a female bearded dragon that was gravid you know digging at a pet shop and so i bought her and she took her home and she laid

eggs and i hatched out those eggs and sold them back to the pet shop. And I'm like, wow, you know, you can keep these animals and make money on the side. And yeah, it was like, and so, so I'm like, oh, if one bearded dragon can do this. So then I bought a male from the same shop and then I got, um, then I was looking all over for bearded dragons and I found this, uh, person selling a group of them and I bought those and then I brought them home and I'm like, oh, what are these little red things crawling on them? You know, it's like, then I had to deal with mites for the first time and that was not enjoyable. And then, um, I, um, I, I put, I didn't quarantine the collection, you know, the new animals. And so I just put them all together. And after I took care of the mites, but then they had other internal parasites that spread to

everybody and then nobody was breeding, you know? So I had a, maybe a year or two of really good production out of, out of a couple of females. And then all of a sudden nothing. And then they, yeah. And then they started kind of dying one by one. And it was just like, Oh man, you know, I, maybe I dove into this too fast or I got the, and, and I think that a lot of times that goes along with the dollar signs in your eyes. You know, if you, if you're, if you're trying, if you're keeping animals because you like them

and they're interesting and they're cool and you, you know, you can't get enough of them, that's one thing. But if you're saying, Ooh, I can make money doing this, you know, a lot of times that just doesn't work out because as we all know, you know, in, in the reptile world, if you want to make a million dollars, start with $2 million, you know, in reptiles and you'll, you'll get to that million dollars real quick. Um, so not to say that you can't make a living out of it, but there's a lot of compromises that you need to make to, to make that happen. And I think those people who make a living out of it are professionals, right they they have gone they didn't start out that way no exactly they probably started out just like you did yeah with with uh oh my gosh i

can do this and then realize oh my gosh there's gigantic pitfalls that i didn't even realize were associated with this and that everybody has to learn the hard way. Right. And, and that's, you know, I mean, I think, you know, that is what it is, right? Like you have to learn somehow and, and hopefully it, you know, it's great to learn by others' mistakes, but oftentimes people learn through their own mistakes. Yeah. And I would, I would just say, you know, that the kind of the bottom line of that is trying to breed animals and, and, and just doing it for money, just getting those dollar signs in your eyes that, that generally, you know, leads to negative mental health. And if you just appreciate the animals for what they are and you love them, you keep them, you know, a lot of times the money will follow in some,

some way you're not going to be rich by any stretch of the imagination, but you'll be able to pay for the food and, you know, housing and stuff like that of your animals. And you know, that it's kind of a hobby that kind of pays for itself. Unless you spend 20 grand on Bolins and reproduce them. That's good for your mental health. Yeah. Yeah. If you can reproduce, but, but if you spend 20 grand and one of them dies, then you're like, Oh, I have a 20 grand, you know, pet, then you're like, Oh, I have a

20 grand, you know, pet, uh, that that's, that's a little rough. Yeah. So, I mean, you gotta be able to fully consider losing all of your money. There's no such thing as a reptile investment. You know, that's kind of a silly, silly thing. I think we've concocted in this, uh, you know, kind of pyramid scheme idea of reptile breeding. And I think we've kind of gone a little bit off the rails that way as a, you know,

herpetoculturist. So I think it would be nice to get back on the rails and consider that in your mental health formula. Don't don't equate animals with money and you'll probably be better off in regards to mental health. Yeah, I, I, I definitely, I definitely don't disagree with that. I mean, I think there is a monetary, you know, factor in all that, that you're not getting away from, but I, I take your point and I totally agree with it. You know, I, I think, uh, if you're, you know, primarily doing it for the things that make you, you know, that interest you and make you happy, that's going to give you the most positive mental outlook on it.

You know what I mean? Versus you're going after something because, you know, it's fucking cool on Instagram or you heard you can make a million dollars from bob clark by breeding big you know what i mean like it's that's that's a hollow that will always be a hollow pursuit because it's not your thing like your thing doing your thing will always be a fruitful endeavor even if you struggle with it um and you know there's there's people who have gone into fruitful, you know, their own endeavors and struggled and succeeded. And man, so that's so, you know, such an amazing feeling for them, right? Yeah, I don't think I can think of an example of somebody who just is wealthy, that doesn't really care about reptiles, that gets into breeding reptiles and stays very long. Yeah, no, this is, you know, I, I think in, in some ways there's,

there's a lot of things about our hobby that make a lot of people kind of go, what, you know? And, and I think if you don't have the staying power, if you don't really care about the animals, you're not going to stick around because there's not a lot of, you know, that, that, that money's not easy to come by. It requires a lot of work and a lot of caring about living creatures and stuff. And, you know, sometimes the importers can get away with it cause they're just bringing stuff in and, and, you know, a lot of that may die. And sometimes they have to have a little bit of a thick skin. We've talked about that on previous episodes, but, um, you know, if captive breeding of, of animals, you really have to be in it for the animals rather than the money

or you'll have no staying power you know well and and really big kudos to you know people like the bells and like people who do it big but do it really really well because it's not easy that's tough and there are very few that can do that yeah the market won't support that and they're and they're obviously i mean they're you know they're not struggling through misery with their collections. They're happy, healthy, you know, they're, they're people who are living their dreams. And so, you know, it's not to say that you can't, you know, you can't have a big collection and, and have, you know,

a great mental outlook on it and do it well. And you can, it's just, you know, it's, it, it, it, it all depends. It all depends on you. You know what I mean? It's about the person and where they're at and, you know, just, I don't know. You know, it's just like you can find yourself in a funk or, you know, like whatever. Life happens to people too. So it's like, i don't know it's kind of a you know but it's not something you know just like in in kind of american culture mental health is kind of a a

taboo thing uh we don't talk about it you know as as as uh warrior class american men we just you know oh well there's nothing wrong with me i march on ha ha ha you know especially the over 40 crowd like us yeah for sure absolutely absolutely. Absolutely. That was not, it's not cool to, you know, it's not cool to talk about mental issues. It's like fucking, you know, walk it off by your bootstraps. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think that's been a nice thing about the day and age that we live in now is that that's looked at as more, you know, and I, and I think it's in, it's on

the increase with all the social media and all the pressure that kids feel these days being constantly under the microscope. Back in our day, there was nobody, you know, it was, it was not that, that was not an issue for us. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, yeah, I agree. I think, well, and I mean, you know, I think we're, we're seeing, we're seeing, um, you know, in our society, some of

the ills of, I mean, obviously mental health is not something that's, you know, you could get me on a tirade about guns, gun control and things like that. I think mental health is, is, is, is probably the bigger problem because there's other countries that have plenty of guns that don't have the mental health issues that America does. And they don't, oh, by the way, they don't have the violence that America does. So mental health plays a huge role in all aspects, including keeping reptiles. It permeates our society as far as some of the ills that we suffer. Another thing that new keepers often do is they get so excited about so many different animals and they just start buying things kind you know, kind of willy nilly. And, and a lot of times then you want your weight. Oh,

I realized that I really liked this group and I want to focus or, or maybe you like a diverse collection and then, you know, that could be something that, that benefits you positively. But I think a lot of times people get in over their heads really quickly. And, uh, I would recommend kind of starting out slow to some extent, especially if you're going to look at breeding animals or, or just get a few and keep them just to see if you like them. Cause it's a lot easier to, to sell a single animal than to try to move a breeding group. If you, you know, you don't really like it. And, and so, and you know, there it's, it's honest to say that, you know, you, you might

see something and think it looks cool and think, Ooh, I want to keep that. And you get it. And it's like, this is not what I was expecting. You know, there, every time I hold them, they take a crap on me or they, you know, they bite me and, and I don't enjoy that. So I don't enjoy this animal anymore. And then that animal maybe sits or gets neglected or, you know, less attention paid to it where, where there might be somebody that's dying to keep that animal and they know i can't wait to get crapped exactly there's like owen you know he loves yeah he loves those big on me please yeah so um not that owen listens but you know we can use him as an example on here um it's he, he's an easy

example. Cause he's the go-to. He can't argue with what we say. Yeah, that's right. So, um, you know, there's, there's plenty of people that would, would love to have that animal or, or, or, or in the same stage of that, you know, do I like it? Do I not like it? You know? So again, you know, I wouldn't buy too many up too quickly, you know, get some, give them, give them a good setup, be prepared for them. Do your research, that kind of thing before you just start buying things. Or if something looks flashy or cool at a show, you know, research it because there's chances, chances are that you you'll be able to find it, especially if it's under, you know, $500 or

something. There's probably a lot of people that have that same animal because chances are it's an import or that lots of people are breeding it and producing it. So, you know, there's no huge rush on it, I suppose. You can take the time to do your research and figure out, you know, if this is the animal for you. So, and if you didn't, and you bought a bunch of animals and you're in over your head, that's okay. Cause you're not alone. Most people end up doing that. So, you know, as long as, as long as you're, you know, cognizant of that, if you realize you've made a mistake, just say, okay, I got in too far, too fast and do the right thing and say like, okay, I do like this. I don't like this. And, you know, find, you know, sell those projects,

find other homes for them, move them on so that, you know, somebody else can either decide, oh, this project is for me or this project is not for me. But if it's obviously not for you, don't hold onto it. Like it's not, you know, it's not going to work out not for me. But if it's obviously not for you, don't hold on to it. Like it's not, you know, it's not going to work out good for you. It's not going to work out good for the animals. Like if it doesn't, you know, if it's not, if you're not getting anything out of it, in the end, the animal will suffer for it. Right. That's, I mean, ultimately, if you're providing the care and you stop caring, that's not going to be a good outcome. So, you know, I mean, I think I think, you know, you know, Justin, your point is well taken.

But at the same time, like it happens to everybody. Everybody goes in fast and furious with reptiles because they're so cool. There's so many. You're so right in everything you said. But at the same time, you have to... Don't just do it because you're like, I did all this stuff. This is my fault. I bear the burden of this. I'm going to hold on to these. Don't do that. Don't do that. It's okay. There's no shame in making that mistake and everybody makes that mistake. So there's no... Again, I think people, when they get in a bad headspace, they're having rough thoughts or whatever. They want to take it on themselves. Maybe it's not about the blame or whose responsibility is or whatever. It's about doing what is best for managing your, your mental health, your collection, doing what's best for the

animals. Right. Yeah. And I think a lot of things factor into that. And I would say, you know, a lot of that is like, Oh, I paid this much for it. And I really need to get that money back because I don't have a lot of money right now, or times are tight and i can't afford to feed it and and if i you know just take a step back look at it in the grand scheme of things you know if you paid a couple hundred bucks for it if i needed to give if i if i need to give an animal away i will give it i would like i don't i don't buy any project i don't buy any project that i couldn't turn around and give to somebody. Yeah. Right.

Because keep in mind, just, yeah, you can move it on. Yeah. It's absolutely more important to me to, to make sure that if, if, if it's not working, if it's not good, if it's not, you know, if it's not something that I, you know, I can do or deal with, I would rather move that animal on for nothing and eat the expense you know hook somebody else up uh who's who will totally do a great job with that or hopefully do a great job with that because i know i'm not going to give it my all because you know it wasn't it wasn't it you know my expectation didn't match out and i don't want the animal to suffer for that. So I'll eat it because it's just money. It's just money.

Fuck the money. Who cares? It's about the animal, not about the money. And that's why $20,000 for a Bolin's python is fucking retarded. I can't do it. We've covered that one, but yeah. I'm just saying. You see what I'm saying you're right

you get the point that i'm making yeah yeah and i mean if you're gonna buy bolins you have to really appreciate that and understand that you could easily lose that animal and be out you know 10 grand just like that so if you're gonna do that you know make sure you're prepared mentally for that potential outcome because you never know what's going to happen. You know, that would be depression right there. Yeah. I mean, and, and, you know, that's dealing with animals. You're going to have animals that die and that can be a blow.

I mean, every time you go in the reptile room, you're like, oh, you know, or where that animal is housed. You're like, oh, you know, or where that animal was housed. You're like, oh, I reminded of that painful experience. And and so, you know, you do have to kind of let things go and focus on the things that are still alive and still need your care and attention and and keep keep up the, you know, the husbandry. Don't don't give up the completely because you have an animal that dies because that's, that's gotta be expected in, in the hobby. You know, you've got to expect those things. Disappointment is part of reptile breeding for sure. For sure. Yeah. Like I said, I just lost four of my, or five of my seven eggs and, and you know, I'm down to two. So, you know,

if I was planning on making a lot of money off that clutch or something, then I just, you know, then just got cut in thirds or whatever. So, you know, if I was planning on making a lot of money off that clutch or something, I just, you know, then just got cut in thirds or whatever. So, yeah. But since I know it's not about the money. Yeah. Oh, I'd be happy if anything hatches, you know, I'm always excited about a snake that hatches. It's always the, you know, the best part to me, but then, and then again, I keep them all. So I have a hard time selling them. So I know that's my problem. I have update my website. I need to get out that. I just,

I just am like too busy to put up ads. I mean, it's all my excuse, but yeah, no, I completely, you know, that's, that's mine. My thing too. I, I enjoy the animals and, and frankly, I mean, I don't need to sell them. I've got the space for them and I enjoy keeping them. So that's okay. If I hold onto them a little longer and I want to make sure they're ready and good to go and that kind of thing. So, yeah, I did actually sell some animals this week. So that was, it's good to move, you know, move some of the animals on and replace them with the things that are going to be hatching out soon. Because I'll be, like I said, I'll be up to my eyebrows with stuff pretty soon.

So, yeah, anyway, that's part of it, you know, and I think a lot of people are great with animals, but maybe aren't that great with business. And so when they buy an expensive project and they think, OK, I'm going to make a lot of money and then it comes time to sell them and they put up ads and they're like, oh, they don't just sell. Cause you put up an ad, you know, like you got to kind of work it. You got to be calling people on the phone and you know, that kind of thing. It's, it's a little harder than just saying, oh, I produce these animals. Everybody's going to be knocking down my door to get them. And that can be a little depressing when you, when you go to sell them and realize that nobody cares about you because you're, you haven't, you don't have a proven track record. They don't know if they can trust sending money to you. If you'll be able to send

them the animal, if you're going to put it in a dirty sock and ship it to them, you know, without a insulation or a heat pack, you know, there's a lot of things that, that could happen. And, you know, so it's, it is a deal of a trust, you know, thing. And, and to get that reputation, you have to kind of go through the ringer a little bit. And that's another reason why it's probably better to kind of start out slow, demonstrate you have a track record. I can breed these animals, but I can also, you know, provide good customer service or help people and, and sell them, you know, for a reasonable amount or whatever, and, you know, get a, get a good reputation that way. So it's, it's more than just producing the animals. No, a hundred percent.

Hard to take sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. You got to get on that phone and mutton chop it up once in a while, call people, talk to them about it. Oh yeah. Yep. There's a, there's a great example of the salesman. on that phone and mutton chop it up once in a while call people talk to him about it oh yeah yep there's a there's a great example of the salesman you know i mean and he does he does i mean like that's that's how he studies sales you know yeah i mean books on sales and things but you know he he has great animals he calls people he talks to him i mean he knows oh man you should pair that with this i have this i have that you know, I mean, you know, he, he, he's, he, he's, he's a salesman, but he's also, you know, looking out for people. So, Oh, have you thought about this? Have you thought, you know, like, what about that? Like,

you know, like, so, I mean, that's part of it. And, you know, I know everyone gives him a hard time and, and that's, that's, that's fair. He deserves it a little bit, but you know, he, he, he is, he's truly about his business and he's truly about carpet pythons and you know he's doing good he's he's he's been doing will be doing and and does good good stuff for for a carpets you know so i i mean you know uh hats off to him you know yeah i always just bust his chops though ah he doesn't listen either. We can say whatever we want. He hears, he hears.

Yeah. He has a good grapevine. And that's another thing about being connected, you know? And, and I, you know, I,

I, I'd go back to having a good support base, like making good friends in the reptile community. That does. I mean, having you as a cohost on this, on this podcast is, I mean,

it makes it so much easier and so much more enjoyable so yeah it's uh hats off to you man thanks man hats off to you too so it's it's been very enjoyable experience you know i try i know sometimes i'm a little much i'm hard to take sometimes that's what brings the spice to the podcast it was just me people would be falling asleep listen i try to keep it caliente for people yeah yeah i like that fiery attitude that's yeah try to be fun try to be fun and i mean other than that you've been a great friend for a lot of years you know and and i and i think know, those are maybe hard to find sometimes, you know, making those real connections and, and having good, true friends that aren't just, uh, you know, Oh, I, I like them cause they have a nice snake, but you know, that, that are actually care

about you and, you know, give you a call once in a while and things. No, it's, it's, I mean, it's, I, you know, you're one of my good friends. Like we, we definitely talk about way more than just reptiles. So and it's, you know, and I wouldn't say that we're exact view things exactly the same way. We agree on quite a few things, but, you know, definitely there's some major differences. So it's, you know, it's a great, you know, it's a great, I love reptiles because of the diversity and the difference in personality and people that you meet. And, you know, it's just, I don't know. It's such a great community of people.

And, you know, it's such a, you know, to do this, to be around long term, to, you know, be involved in reptiles for the long haul, you know, it's not easy to do. And I think, you know, hats off to everybody that I know that's still around. And, and, you know, it's just, it's good. It's, it's a, you know, it's something that had I, when I got all disgruntled about the way social media and the popularity contest was, and I'd have just been like, I'm shutting down that part of my life, not doing it anymore. I'm glad I came back and I'm glad it's like, man, this is definitely such a worthwhile endeavor. and you know how you think man you remember all those people that used to be on mp forum that just are you don't like you you

don't really realize it until you're like what about this person you're like oh yeah what about them right like yeah i remember that you remember this part oh yeah yeah. You know? And, and so there's so many people that have moved on and I just, you know, I definitely value and, um, really, really like all of the, the people that have kind of been around and stuck it out. And, and, you know, um, I don't know if, if nothing else, Chuck and Justin care. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So now it's all Kumbaya club. There you go. There we go. There we go. Well, let me find something else that's right. Yeah. So now it's all Kumbaya club. There you go. There we go. There we go. Well, let me find something else that's negative. No, just doing my part here, but, um, I just turned into brother, brother love right now. That's there you go. Yeah. I re I ran into, uh, one of the local, local guys at the reptile show and he's,

he's, you know, I've, I've, uh, vended a lot of the same reptile at the reptile show and he's he's you know i've i've uh vended a lot of the same reptile shows as him for many years and um really he produces some really nice ball pythons and stuff and and i hadn't seen him at a at the show for uh you know a couple times and i saw him i'm like and he was just like walking through, not vending. And I'm like, what's going on? Why aren't you vending? He's like, oh, I got a, like a Nido outbreak and, and like it killed off most of his collection. And he was like in the pits of despair. Every time he goes into his reptile room, there's like another dead snake or something.

And there's nothing he can do to really stop it other than isolate the ones that he knows are positive. And, and so he just watched his whole, you know, all that work trying to get the collection he had and all those kind of things. And just watching it all go down the drain, you know, just very difficult. I mean, that is the nightmare right there. That's it. That's the nightmare right there. It's just like there's no upside to that ever at all anyway.

Like recipe for depression depression for sure. think about, you know, be prepared and have kind of a support system that you can rely on to, to get you through if, if that, you know, happens and, and that's, you know, definitely not something fun to think about, but it's something that needs to be considered working with live animals. You know, things can go bad, things can go wrong. So make sure you're bringing in healthy stuff from trusted sources but you know do the best you can that's for sure i mean well i mean you know every precaution and i i guarantee that guy feels like it was his fault because he probably felt like oh i i should have done this i could have done that i didn't do this and you don't know until everything in your you know in your collection is kicking off one by one and you're like ah this is you don't know until everything in your you know in your collection is kicking off one by one and you're like ah this is you know it's just like a slow dreadful downhill slide like

and i'm not saying you know you have to like be be okay with that or be happy about it you know you can still feel upset and of course you know obviously that's going to make you upset to to lose any animals especially if it's a large part of a collection. But, you know, if you know that you're not the kind of person that can handle that, maybe don't get a collection of 200 animals or maybe stay smaller or just have a few animals in really nice setups that you can enjoy and not have to worry about selling animals or worry about outbreaks of disease and things like that. Well, and I mean, small collections, much more manageable. Listen, two clutches a year and 10 clutches a year are totally different things, right? And you can get just as much enjoyment out of two clutches a year as you can 10. Sure. Yeah. And not that idea to be a breeder

not everybody needs to be a professional you know you can have a very small collection and only breed a couple clutches like you said and everything's hunky-dory and i mean i kind of feel like you know that whole like idea that i keep the terry the terry philip way kind of you know doesn't always help me you know be as efficient as efficient as I can. It's, it's kind of funny. I stick those coastals outside pretty much the first year and boom, you know, they're, they're breeding and looks like she's gravid again, you know? And it's like, ah, okay, well, there you go. But I don't, you know, like, like in my normal room, this stuff is like, eh like yeah you know like some stuff does better than others but it's not you know and that's okay with me like i'm not you know i'm not in it to like

make eggs every year and do like you know it's like i i enjoy it like ah getting eggs is awesome but i don't want to do i don't want to do you know like i'm already producing enough gecko eggs that i'm like oh my gosh this is kind of a lot. You know what I mean? Like, and, and they're so consistent and it's great. I'm not complaining. I'm just saying like, and they're easy, you know, they're not hard. And they all have the same care requirements and like, you know, so it's just a matter of housing and feeding. If you're feeding, you know, if you're feeding five, but now you're feeding 20, what's the big, you know, it's not that much more work. So, you know, like, you know, if you're feeding five, but now you're feeding 20, what's a

big, you know, it's not that much more work. So, you know, like, you know, to me, it's like, okay, this is good. This is manageable for me, but I don't have to produce anything. I don't care about that anymore. You know, it's like, so. That's a nice place to be, I think, you know. And I always feel like I have too many animals. I need to get rid of some, but then it comes down to get rid of some. And I'm like, Oh, I'm attached to all these. I can't, you know? So

it becomes a little tricky. Yeah. And I think, you know, most anybody who's has a decent size collection probably feels a little bit like you do, you know, like, Oh, what am I going to get rid of? Oh gosh, I couldn't do that. I don't know, man. I'm, I'm very attached to that, you know, like, yeah, yeah. Cool. You got a lot of pets then, you know? Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Um, well, uh, any, anything else to add? What other really great things or can, or can boost your happiness and herpetoculture? Yeah. I mean, I, no, I, I just think that, you know, being cognizant of, of, um, where you're at and, and, and, you know, what you're doing and, and think, really think about it and just, you know, um, do what makes you happy. I, I don't, I don't think it's, you know, I don't think it's a magic thing. And, you know, you can't tell anybody, um, where the, where the line is or, um, you know, what to

do. It's everybody's it's your, you know, it's, it's, it's like, it's like your, your own hero's journey, man. You got to figure out your own path and you can't look at other people's path because their path isn't your path. And you have to figure out what your path is to walk, you know, to walk your path. And people who, who live genuinely happy lives, walk their own path. They find their own bliss. So, you know, you just have to be able to do that. Yeah. That's, I mean, I guess that's a struggle in life anyway, is just figuring out who you are. Um. I guess the bottom line is do, you know, do what's good for your mental health and know yourself and, and, but, but think about

the things that we've talked about tonight and consider those things. And, you know, hopefully that'll help you down the road. Yeah. I definitely, I definitely feel like you're, you know, people may take it like it's selfish to put your mental health in front of, I personally think your mental health is the most important thing in, in, in the whole thing. Cause if, if your mental health is not good, your animals are going to suffer because of it. So, you know, do what you got to do to keep your mental health good.

And, and that will lead to, to better outcomes is, is kind of how I feel, you know, for sure. Having having kind of been through a little bit of it myself. And, you know, I, I empathize with anybody who, you know, feels overwhelmed or, or, or maybe is struggling a little bit with like their collection. I know exactly what that's like and uh there's no you know i i not you know people don't talk about it but it's it's all it's all over the place man and so there's no shame in the game there's none zero for sure all right well um we'll put a shout out to the Morelia Python Radio Network and the Podfather and all his buddies. Check out moreliapythonsradio.com for all of the information you could need. Sorry, what were you going to say?

I was just going to say, and the Herpaholics Network that's going to be getting together here pretty soon excited for that heck yeah that'll be fun to herp with the podfather and yeah rob and the crew that'll be good i know that'll be fun that'll be good times we'll have to force them to record something you know all that good stuff yeah well owen won't be there owen is the resistance he is he is the resistor in that circuit i think they're pretty single-minded, though, when we're out there. Yeah. Well, and that's fair. I brought it up on the last trip, and they're like, no, thanks.

Yeah. So maybe we won't. Well, and I feel bad for Eric because he lives his life editing podcasts. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's true. And Herping is like, listen, Justin, by the way, I am taking a break from editing podcasts right now. So I get that.

Eric put out the new Gakota podcast. Yeah, I know. I've seen that. Yeah, I'm excited for that one. A couple of gecko files here, so that'll be fun to hear. So check that out. Check out the other podcasts that they're putting out. I listened to their book club one, and that was fun.

It got me reading my copy of the book they talked about. So I'm not too far in, but it got me excited to continue reading on. Did you have that book already? You just needed to, needed to read it or? Well, yeah, I needed time. And now that the book editing is kind of done, we're there. So we can talk about that a little more on the next episode, but all right. Well, thanks for listening. Uh, catch us again for another episode of Reptile Fight Club. All right. so Thank you. Outro Music