Reptile Fight Club - RFC vs. MPR- Should we regulate ourselves before someone else does?

Episode Date: November 15, 2024

In this episode, Justin and Rob are joined by Eric & Owen in a RFC vs. MPR to tackle the topic of shpuld we rregulate ourselves before the goverment steps in and does it for us? Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comIGFollow Rob @ https://www.instagram.com/highplainsherp/Follow MPR Network @FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQSwag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

how to start it it's an npr episode right right and we have that's debatable that's debatable We have home field advantage here. This is ours. We can fight over who. That's the debate. First 10 minutes is whose show this is. Okay, yeah. Who shall remain the podfather? Here's the pro. It should be our show.

It's in the corner. It's in that corner. It says, I'm ready to fight the radio. I'm done. Easy, Owen. They can just push a button and it'll change don't help them why are you help you're on my team i am but i i also like to be real you also yeah it's true this is true anyway this is all jacked up okay all right well here we

are don't try to fix things on air we We talked about this. We'll wait till later. Fix them off air. It's an audio medium. We're here to fight about something. Something with somebody. Owen was feeling rather savage, so we decided to bring out the savage people in the network. We decided we wanted to fight, so we talked to the fighting people because as one does so yeah uh we have uh justin julander and uh bob rock on from reptile fight club uh the second most popular show on our network so um yeah by the way rob you sounded so smooth when you were at the NPR studios.

We're going to have to studio him up. Yes. I was like, wow, that sounds sharp. Yeah. Thanks for letting him use the studio, by the way. That was, that was nice. And I mean, more importantly, thanks to Rob for doing the show while he was on vacation. While he was on vacation. While he was on vacation.

That's dedication right there. Listen, I don't think I've ever stopped a vacation for an NPR episode. So he's already on a level that I will never obtain. So, you know. I'm just like, here, everybody talking to my phone. Let's record from the field, from the road. We're doing it. We're doing it.

Somebody fight. Let's fight. Well, today i had to close the pool and um which is like uh it's like on the level of a rob hike um so i'm a little tired are you wish there could be some snakes you know yeah why not yeah i'm just you know i don't know but uh yeah we got australia coming up in a couple weeks fellas that's that's pretty uh pretty exciting hell yeah man yeah probably have some kind of schedule coming up because i know you're proud again you guys are all going to be i'm not holding down the fort myself i refuse you damn well will no i will not well it turns out with i i didn't realize because I upload the show early to Patreon.

The one that came out today should have came out last week, and I didn't realize that I didn't upload it. So we're ahead of week, Owen. I looked at it, and I was like, wait, NPR hasn't been updated in 22 days? That can't be right. And then you're like, the Carpets and Coffee episodes weren't up. They were all there, but they just weren't for some reason they weren't uploaded then i got a notification but five episodes 94 to 99 and i'm like there you go well now now it makes sense remember i asked you when we were driving to the pine barrens i was

like what's the deal man you're just not putting him up anymore and you're just like yeah it's fine he's an idiot i'm the idiot it's me you know i we now we just record for ourselves you know we yeah all the episodes let them out come on yeah there's enough reptile podcasts yeah how many reptile podcasts can there be it isn't it is kind of refreshing when a new one comes out and they just come out swinging and they're all excited and then yeah yeah a couple years later it's like where did they go they were just getting their you know getting ready getting going getting their audience audience I am quite enjoying the expert and the idiot That's a pretty good one I haven't gotten into that one yet

That's pretty good I'm listening to that new Gecko podcast Oh there's a Gecko podcast Yeah Put us Gecko nuts out there I can't remember the name One out of the four people here. Surprise, surprise.

Gecko Exchange Radio. Yes, Gecko Exchange Podcast. The Gecko Exchange Podcast. There you go. Our old buddy Phil was on there. Yeah. Such a delightful listen. Yeah, that's a sultry voice.

Yeah. Yeah. I've been uh i i keep finding i i keep i saved the picture of it but like every every so often i find somebody that's in like a group of people in a movie or a tv show and i was like oh that's their fill okay yeah everybody needs a fail yeah that's right everybody does for sure absolutely so as a reptile fight club episode i i believe there's a coin toss or how do you guys do this again oh yeah i mean hold your horses you know i, I'm sorry. I'm rushing you. You've got to skip the foreplay. Stretch a little.

You've got to work up to it, right? Come on. Go. Let's fight now. He's not going to fall down. You're going to have to punch him yourself. He's right. I have to make sure this is full okay got your sucker punch from on he's gonna start the fight early

you don't announce it you just go oh and tell tell the tell the people the peoples, today that you're cleared quarantine and what that means for future Owen. I've been cleared quarantine. There are two snakes remaining in quarantine. Yeah, well. For like the first time in probably two months because I kept kind of doing this. So we're almost at the edge. We're going to not add anything else or no more i am gonna take that bet yeah all right i'll take the under we're done you know it's because there was a pair of

hypo bull snakes that showed up here for some reason out of nowhere but after that we're done so yeah they just crawled their way into your heart something like that i don't know what's the weird name you gave them can't what is it can't get somebody kept saying i had one of those the other day. Horrible. It happens sometimes. Season's changing and stuff. Sour, sour. It was...

But no, I'm done. We need to be done for a bit. I've heard that before. Yeah, but that was before. Episode 532. That was before when it was like, oh, there's still open cages. There's also 546.

There are no more cages that are open. Like, we're done. Yeah, that was episode 557. Shut up. Shut up. To be fair, I think I've been saying for many, many years, I need to reduce the size of my collection. Well, and that's the problem. I finally got around to reducing it

and then I added more. And it's like, ah, two left, four came. Wait a minute. The math doesn't add up here. So, yeah. Reduction by addition. Exactly. The only way.

So, yeah. We're just – and I don't know about you guys and what you guys have seen. I know some of you – like, you guys don't know about you guys and what you guys have seen. I know some of you, like you guys don't do many shows. You don't do, I know you guys still sell your animals. And I know that there's kind of been a little bit of a downturn of animals leaving, not you. I know you don't do anything. I was going to say like, not really Rob, it's really only Justin that maybe sells his stuff. You two just hoard.

So I, I don't know. It's like, I've Justin that maybe sells his stuff. You two just hoard. So I don't know. It's like I've seen that kind of downturn, which, you know, kind of gives me a little bit of a pause of going into this season because I had planned about 40 pairs. And I'm kind of like trying to turn that dial. Like, I'm like, well, maybe we don't need to do that many because I don't even think I can bust out like emergency racks. I don't think I have any room for those. So I don't have any left to give. I know. I know.

I took them all. So, oh, no, I know where they are. I have one left, but that's actually the one I'm going to use. Oh, yeah. It's it's that whole thing where it's like I can't really add that much. So you kind of got to pick and choose here. So, OK. And October kind of snuck up on me.

It's I just realized it's kind of time to start pairing stuff if you want to go. Yeah. Yeah. I did put my blackheads together, but yeah. Oh, they go together now, do they? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

They they lay eggs in like february or something for some reason that's the schedule they're on and no sure if i don't put the mail in early enough she just lays a bunch of slugs is that the same pair that you've been pairing for the last couple years or yeah yeah yeah do all your animals get like punchy around this time because all mine are like desperate for food like open mouth coming at the door yeah i think the blue beauties bit each other and i'm like great cool thanks guys so they're just always wonderful to try to take that knot apart they let go pretty quick but these are two females that have shared the same six foot cage for forever and now they bit each other i'm

like great thanks like why so um it's kind of like i think everybody i think they know it's kind of getting later on in the year and they kind of want to get some more food in because it's not like i starve anybody over here so i don't know is that a shot at me mcintyre i I didn't say anything. If you took that offensive, that is on you. I don't know. I don't know with you today. I can't figure it out. There's only two people who can get me onto a podcast at 9 o'clock at night,

and they're both here. Wait, there's three other people here. There we go. Here we are. I think it's me. There we are. I came in on to do Jack Squad. Yeah.

He just laughs in my face. But he won't even do that with you. Because you're not going to the right Kimberly. I'm going to the wrong Kimberly. Actually, I guess it's kind of the right. Right Kimberly, wrong place. Wrong area. Right, but, wrong place. Wrong area. Right, but wrong.

Yes. Yes. Okay. All right. So you doing a lot of pairings, Justin, this year? It's always the question, you know, what do I want to, how many babies do I want to deal with? I think I'm definitely going to put together some inland carpets and some womas. The jungles are together um so that would be the larger varieties that i'm pairing and i haven't really put any any of the ants together

yet but i'll i'll pair something i always try to get at least one clutch from each species of the anturesia but it'd be really annoying this year because i have children's pythons I'm going to try to breed. When I come to you and I'm like, I think I broke them. You'll be like that. It's hard not to breed those things. Excellent. We'll do fantastic with them. And I can use the shells from my scrub python clutch as their hide boxes.

Perfect. Half a shell. Half a shell would be plenty. Get lost in there. That's cool. All right. So some anteresia. How about the lizards?

You doing any? Yeah, I mean, they're kind of paired up already. So if they breathe. Well, the blue tongues aren't, but the others are. So yeah, I'll pair those up. I don't know how many northern blue tongues. I keep thinking my westerns are going to go, and then they keep not going. So, I don't know what's going on with the westerns.

I wish Ben would get that blue tongue skink sexing technique. The technology. Ask me down so I can sex and make sure the sex is on my Western blue tongues. I know I had a pair, and then they had a baby, and so I just kind of folded that one into the mix, but I don't know if it's a male or female for sure. It seems like a female. The male doesn't fight with it, so that's a good sign. And I thought she was gravid this year, but not now. Have they been bred in the States before west yeah yeah yeah yeah well by me a few years ago but yeah several others so yes somebody yeah

but yeah i wish i they're not very commonly bred that's for sure right okay yeah they're they're really cool they're i'm i'm hoping on the birthday trip that's one of this that's one of the target species down ularu way so that would be cool to see those i did actually i was thinking about just in the other day because um i went to a pet store and i actually got to hold like uh an amia uh for like the first time yeah i'm like this thing is awesome and i'm like i need to we need to run far away from this creature as fast as humanly possible before i start figuring out where i can put like a knob tail gecko tank in my house don't do it owen don't do it don't do

it i'm like wow if you're not if you're not breeding them they're not you know difficult to keep but you know they they do do pretty well although you're not breeding them, they're not difficult to keep. They do pretty well. Although you're on the East Coast and it's humid there, so maybe not. Yeah. Maybe go with an asper instead. We'll just run screaming from the geckos for now. And then I'll come back when I'm, you know.

And they don't have much of a tail for you to break off. Yeah. That's another part of their appeal. I can't hurt them that badly. Exactly. What's your, what's your, what do you say with that? I don't trust an animal that falls apart intentionally. I knew you had a tagline.

That was, that was my Hosmer's, Hosmer's skinks. I was holding them to show some people and I, I go to grab one by the tail. Cause I, oh, they're spiny tailed skinks. I was holding them to show some people and I go to grab one by the tail because, oh, they're spiny-tailed skinks. Their tails don't come off and it popped right off. I'm like, oh, crap, these guys do. Then I look like a big moron because I'm like, what are you doing? Why did you just pull its tail off?

I'm like, I didn't think it came off. Now what? I picked up the other one to show him and he started just wiggling his tail. And it just broke off and flew out of me. Like, what is going on? It really upset them, apparently. His heads were falling off.

Or tail. Justin's doing like that dad finger thing with the tail. Look, look, look. Yeah, so then I'm like, okay, lesson learned. Don't freak them out. Cause they are a couple, but yeah, there, there are other, you know, other, uh, Egernia species like the depressa their tails don't really come off. So it was more of a, I mean, maybe under extreme duress or something,

but yeah, there. So the Hosmers were a little different. One of those things they don't tell you in school. They don't tell you that when you start getting into geckos. But yeah, I'm really hoping on this trip that we can find a Shea Eye. That would be really cool, the Kimberly Nobtail. Because I still haven't seen any of the rough knob tails in the wild. Yeah. That's high on my list anyway.

Yeah, absolutely. And luckily it's in the same places. We're going to be looking for other stuff too. So it's all there. Yeah. Win, win.

Yeah. I think Ryan saw one in Kakadu. Oh yeah. Out there. Yeah. I told them before you came on rob that you know i wish you all great luck and great success out on the australia trip but if you find an owen pelly python my love for you guys will diminish a little bit like it's just going to

go down just a little a little bit well you having already seen them you know i'm just saying you went without me and you yeah a little bit so you'd be more mad about the owen pelly than you would about a scene in olive python no because i can see all the pythons downstairs i know that doesn't count yes it does but i've seen them in captive collections owen pelly's i've held one yeah so have i but two yeah 12 um no i mean like i would say that it would be cool for you guys to complete the set. Am I going to sit there and be like, they got them all and I didn't? I don't know. I mean, I think it would be if it was that, say, we had found the Olive and missed the Owen Pelly.

And then on the second trip, you guys found the Owen Pelly. I'm pretty sure that would be devastating. That would be heartbreaking. The Olive, it sucks but whatever yeah it seemed like i'm glad we found the carpet when we did he's just trying not to get an olive python clutch this year that's that's what i'm not trying to get out but i don't want to they won't go away i have 14 of them like they need to leave you just missed that bubble, man. The bubble burst before you could get out. I could get the clutch, yeah.

Well, this is like my fifth clutch, so it's like all the other ones left. It's a good thing they're small and they don't grow very fast. Yeah. I know, right? Yeah, they grow on oxygen. It's not like they grow when you don't feed them. I mean, you know. Yes.

I've been horrible to them. My perfect snake, yes. I've been absolutely terrible to them they still keep growing yeah yeah it's pretty wild you're the the one i got from you owen is it's like huge i'm like wait a minute it's an olive python yeah i didn't think i had to explain that to you but apparently i should have no i knew i just was surprised that you know how fast it has grown I didn't think I had to explain that to you, but apparently I should have. No, I knew. I just was surprised that, you know, how fast it has grown. It's like five foot, man. It, yeah.

It was born here, you know, and yeah. That's true. And Rob, you just got a litter, right boas right yeah puerto rican boas that was cool so the we talked about this a little bit on fight club last week but the the neat part of it is um just how consistent that that female slash pair has been so that it's been within 10 days or two weeks each of the past or four times in the past seven years. So it was 18, 20, 22 and 24 all within between September 5th, something like that, and September 20th. And given Jeff Murray the details, so I took weights and measurements on all the babies to give to Jeff Murray for the West Indian Boa website.

And I was looking at the data from her litter in 2022. And the total mass of live babies was within four grams this time of last time, which is pretty amazing. And the total length. So this one had one more live baby it was 14 live babies no slugs uh 14 and two slugs 14 and two slugs and this was 15 live no slugs um but the total length of all the babies was about one baby short of the last litter but yeah just just so amazing the the consistency that's crazy yeah and how um i'm not keeping them on a schedule not feeding them on a schedule not doing i am managing them the same way but yeah to have that level of consistency from a pair of animals over seven years without um you know not changing what i'm doing but at the same time not following it in

some ways it's just sort of mind-blowing yeah i guess they figure it out right yeah now that i have four boa species can i be considered for boas boas boas or am i still like you know not yeah we're actually planning yeah we're planning to get that back on the track because there's been so much positive feedback around that. And people are asking about, have come up with topics that they're interested in. We got to get a part two with Quetzal, which was amazing. I thought that one was really, really good. So, yeah, actually, Warren, Keith and I were talking about that.

I think we're going to talk about it in Australia and then hopefully coming out of of the trip we're going to be um recording a couple getting back on track and doing that so yeah i think hopefully that'll that'll push the excitement uh amongst the group in the way that there is for people to receive it which has been awesome so yeah i'm i'm super excited about that and hopefully we'll certainly you know we could we can talk to you about some boas um i figured you didn't want any of these owen you hadn't expressed any interest so and these are a non-sale please no you're like coastal carpets though i don't know please they really are yeah i don't care no um so you know for the most part i actually try and pre-arranged like people who are interested right because on these um as i say totally

non-commercial you theoretically could sell them within your state but that's not something that i'm interested in doing um so usually you know there's just been this remarkable consistency both with them and the port and the jamaican the puerto rican bows and the jamaican bows so that uh as you know she's working on it like, OK, who's interested in having some of these and whatever? And I don't know that Dustin was that interested, but Brandon was super interested. And my buddy John was driving down to the Tucson show. So I just sent an undisclosed number of them down to those two. They should have picked them up today.

I think Dustin previously wasn't interested, but Brandon was like, hell yeah, dude. What was his, what were we saying when we found that first, when we found that first rumor? Hell yeah, brother. What's it's like the Ric Flair, you know, or whatever. Yeah, brother. Hell yeah, brother. And yeah, so that, that was sort of the vibe so i think i sent six of them down there and i was like here you go you know a healthy little little starting batch and on these you know out

of the i sent him six jamaicans too and apparently those turned out he thought they at least the initial popping or whatever he's like you sent me 5.1. And I was like, maybe I just arbitrarily picked up, you know, or whatever. But at least on these, like I told him as is true, I was like, look, I definitely have more from previous years that I, you know, if that winds up being a problem again, I can just send you even more. Yeah. No, this is why I don't get involved in this. Cause Rob's be like, how many this year? No. Yeah.

Well, and actually, so Ish has some from a couple, at least one from maybe the 2020 ones, I think. And we talked about it at Carpet Fest. I had actually thought, you know, maybe they'd be born by then or whatever. And so I was telling him we talked about it that day. And then it wound up being three or four days after I'd gotten back. And but I told him there, I was like you're gonna want some and he said absolutely so those will go out next week i expect and then i'll send jeff some as well and should be good so i don't think there are any any available so sorry owen i can't oh no oh damn it yeah i've waited too long oh no i mean i could send you some of the ones from 22 or 20 or 18 if you want those.

Let's not go crazy here. And I swear to God, if I get an alert that says FedEx, you're getting a box, I'm going to be really suspicious. So, yeah, it's – no, I need to stop, okay? There's too many projects. Is there an issue with sexing them or is that they're – They're so small. You just don't want to deal with the hassle of sexing all of them or you're just kind of like, hey, get what you get. Yeah, sort of.

I mean in both instances, it's like I think basically I've sent out three or four, it's turned into three or four groups. Cause we're talking, well, 14 to, I think if maybe the Jamaicans, the second one was 17, 16 or 17. And it's just been, I've sent those to a cumulative three or four people, you know, it's very, depending on the time and it's like, okay, well, presumably the ratio itself is relatively even. So that if I sent six of them to Dustin and it's 5.1 then keith probably has 1.5 you know or whatever um then they can sort that out themselves as they want to and that's basically been sort of the approach i've taken the rules for the jamaicans are they have to be gifted but the rules for the puerto ricans is they could be sold in your state just not us so no it's the same for both.

Okay. And what it actually comes down to, right, is so the law that impacts it, and there could be state laws that would impact on this. I think maybe Illinois or something has a law against keeping Endangered Species Act listed animals without a permit or something like that. Gotcha. So a state law could supersede this. But in general, because it's a federal law, what matters is crossing state lines. And the Endangered Species Act prohibits commercial sale of Endangered Species Act listed animals over state lines.

Right. So that within your state, theoretically, you're not out of state. There is not interest for state commerce. So you could theoretically do it within your state but that's just not something i'm interested in most people that do that is florida you know i think a lot of that stuff originated in florida and all that and so you'll see that sometimes radiated tortoises it seems like they're sold and usually it's just within state you know well they can't sell across state. Black pine snakes up here.

Yeah. So are they endangered or threatened? So that's the other. So there's two. I'm saying this like it's one thing. In reality, there's two different classifications. And what it more or less comes down to, at least the way I take it, is if it's endangered, then you're not going to get a commercial permit for it. Where if it's threatened, then it's similarly listed, similarly protected, but they will grant a permit. You could apply for a permit. So we see that with eastern indigos,

right? They're listed there as threatened. And so those are species that can be in commercial trade if you get the right permits and all that. they're not going to issue those permits on something that's classified as endangered i think so with black pines i think they are threatened but then i think at one part of their range which is in one state they are classified as endangered in that state i'm not sure which state that is but it's like because that state has them as endangered or that population is endangered in that state. I don't know if that weighs on it a little bit heavier, but I was told they sail within state is fine. Outside of state is no good. But they it's to the point where people won't even like there's no transporting out of state or anything like that.

So it's I mean, you could give them away. I could breed species that actively gives them you could give them away. I could, yeah. Someone who breeds species and actively gives them away. Give them away, right. The whole notion that, oh, we can't keep Louisiana pines, can't keep black pines, can't keep all this stuff because we couldn't then sell it. But you could. I work with a lot of things that we don't – that I don't sell, and you give them away. And if you legitimately gave away black pines, you could send them to whomever you want presuming there wasn't some state law

preventing you from doing so right um but again it's it's genuinely giving them away it's it's not wink you know everyone oh it's some wink wait no no it's not it's genuinely you know here you go yeah you know so i this might be a dumb question but how do they even track that right so you have to write the species on the box did it yeah i mean how would they even flag right what would even flag i think for the most part the things that would um capture attention would be putting it up on you know formerly kingsnake or fauna now more for your own website or your own website and saying like they're for sale and advertising them without sort of i mean as i referenced the florida thing

right like you would see uh jamaican boas and it's like florida sales only in that that kind of language you would see um so i think presumably that kind of would be a flag that that they would see and highlight similarly i mean shoot you know i know that boxes do get inspected occasionally and you know they have those labels on there and all that um some states more than others and whatever at least that's the impression that i get um so i'm always very clear um and i know jeff is the same you know he kind of uh brought me along the same way in terms of like writing on that label like gratis these are free you know like genuinely you know and including even documentation around like the origin and saying you know this is

a gift you know it's there's no compensation associated with this transaction and that's legitimately it you know so it's all about the love of the critter people love the jamaicans at least ideologically because they're beautiful um. They are. They're kind of the Timor Pythons. Yeah, exactly right. They're the Timor Pythons or the West Indian boas, where Puerto Ricans are the coastal carpets, just in terms of keeping experience and how you interact with them and how they respond to you and all those things.

But, I mean, they are beautiful. There's no doubt about that. I fear that the Dominican Red Mountain boas have ruined me for a lot of the different boa species. Like, it could kind of look like one. Don't want it. Yeah, no, it's over. Yeah, I mean, a Puerto Rican boa would be, essentially, it's a gray and purple to black Dominican Red Mountain. You know, functionally, in terms of, like, big picture, you know, especially, you know, they're not.

Obviously, they're their own thing. But you having those, yeah, they're very similar. If anything, I would say the Puerto Rican bows in general. If you made a Dominican, you know, more aggro and spicy, then you've got a Puerto Rican bow. I meant my Dominican. you know more aggro and spicy then you've got a puerto rican bow do they watch your eyes and try and bite you in the face i never got that close but you know i i okay good point like that sounds like a fun time yeah that is that's a good one i say that so that's sort of the the stereotype with them and some i mean certainly that's not um totally unearned at the same time i you know essentially

never get bit by them and you know we'll just grab them if anything i'll use a 12 inch hook to to start them but um yeah i mean they're they're just like coastal carpets except that yeah i mean i suppose if you left it alone and never touched it and whatever, then, yeah, it is funny to see them. They're looking at your eyes and trying to bite you in the face. Wow. Sounds like an Owen-type snake. Listen, we can't – they can't all be bastards. Dark-nuded colors.

The species name literally means not ornate. Not ornately patterned. These are all the things you love. They're not big, I guess. They're not big. That would be the only thing that wouldn't check an Owen box. They're not sufficiently large. Yeah, they need to be large and evil and want to murder me.

Yeah, that's the only way. I had a thought the other day. You're talking about snakes being spicy do you think that like i started to think like first of all do you keep track of how many times that you get bit by snakes right no i would no right no i don't want those numbers no yeah no you don't think about it and then the other thing i'm thinking about is like we all have those animals that are like just like you know extra spicy in our collection even though yeah there's always one or whatever it's like you work with that and you're i don't know like i was thinking about this the other day because i'm thinking like

do i say that you know carpets or pythons or this aren't bitey when really maybe they are but in my perspective it's something that doesn't phase me so i don't see it the same way like it doesn't even register to you know what i mean like if i get bit it's just like oh well i just move on to the next thing and it's not a big deal whereas like a new keeper may be like oh my god you know i think about i'm like trying to compare it to like when i was keeping like big scrubs you know what i mean you know that level of stress that you have when you're dealing with an animal like that oh and you know this very well i do i do yeah she takes the hook and then it's hers now like okay i guess i think too though your your body language too um for people who are more nervous they tend to be a little more jittery and and you know you know flipping their hands

around and stuff and induce a bite yeah so i i love, I love that story of, um, Brian Barczyk in Australia handling a giant, um, scrub Python that was my buddy Chris's. And, and he was like doing the Steve Irwin thing where he's kind of dancing around and like keeping away from the head. And I'm like, dude, dude, settle down. I just picked it up and put it around my neck and held it. Chris was like, Oh, I don't know if I do. But it was like, it didn't, it didn't try to bite.

It wasn't looking aggressive. It was just kind of like, get me out of here. You know, so it's kind of right. But I don't know. It's kind of, well, I mean, I mean, I also think it's a law of large numbers where it's like, if I only have one carpet python and that carpet python is a bastard like then i'm going to assume it but like us it's like next cage and that one's not a problem like next case that one's not a problem it's like that kind of stuff so yeah absolutely i so two things that you know both uh this the story from you justin but first eric so i was able to recover

actually charge the phone that randomly died. So I was able to get back into some pictures. And the pictures I was looking at was from 2018 Carpet Fest when I was cleaning your stuff. You still have that carpet mayor. Yeah. The one that bit the shit out of you. Yeah. So, and I had taken all these pictures. So I'm looking, I had like a big ass hematoma from him nailing the crap out of me and all this stuff um he's one of the feisty ones yeah i was just looking at that i was like i bet he's one of the ones you're thinking of because he's special he's absolutely special um but yeah justin i mean your story reminds me and eric can speak to it better than i can in some ways uh the second king horn eye that we saw

when we were in cans on our first trip to australia right so that the you know i'd run back for it pulled it off the road it responded by um give me a little love tap on my ankle and then i was like i started feeling myself like you were justin and i put it around my neck i was like i got this and then chris moved or he's taking pictures you know and he moves a little bit and the thing back it s curves back into my chest and i'm you know looking down and it's you know 18 inches from my face it has three foot of body 18 inches from my face and i'm like oh this will be interesting when i go through customs you know they're like what happened to your face mate you know i fell down fell down we'd have to throw rob down on the on the concrete a

couple times to make it look better but make it less snake yeah like yeah it's like more scraping punching you in the face because we have to not drag because we love you we do this because we love you do it again hit me again more you gotta be more like, Robin. Make your own problems and issues and hurts. Oh, my goodness. But that's the other thing is that some – because what is it? Rhino rat snakes. People are always grabbing them and putting up by their face.

I'm like, if I did that with my male, he'd pierce my ear for me and then hang on there for good measure for a while. No, he'd just eat it i mean yeah he's probably faster like it's like my adults are not nice like it's but i just find them to be so food motivated so i've had it where you know literally that someone was just talking about this uh some podcasts that i was listening to but um they literally do the thing where they you know grab you on the finger and they just do the chomp, chomp, chomp, chomp. They just start. They just start.

And then they're down to your hand and it's like, well, this will be an interesting next 45 minutes. Like, what are we doing here? They make that difficult decision. Can I finish this? Can I eat? I've been stopped by the palm. It'll be fine. That's why when I feed the adults in the communal cage, it's like I have to have two things.

Oh, absolutely. Like mice in their faces. At the exact same moment. And then I got to babysit because I don't trust them enough to not go over and do the Kelly King thing. Oh, they will. Absolutely. I know they will. No, they will. 100%. so i got a question about that you guys both communal you know do uh put pairs together or whatever when you when you're feeding them both at the same time

well you know have you are you always nervous that they're gonna continue to want to eat is that the idea like you're like as soon as they go together, you're freaking out. Like what? How does that work? Usually that I'm just speaking with my guys is once they've eaten and there's no trace of mouse, it's fine. It's like if the mouse was hanging out of somebody's mouth still, then it's still there. It's free game. It's it has not been fully consumed yet. And I I've seen that a lot. But if once it's all the way down, they tend to leave each other alone. Of course, I would say that's not 100% of a rule. But you do end up having to do the thing like when the babies that are not eating finally bite and wrap a fuzzy where you're like, I guess I'll just be here now for the next hour and a half. Like that's happened a bunch where it's just like, well,

I'm just going to be here now. So. Statue mode engaged. Well, that's the, uh, cause my female was smaller. Well, it's a lot smaller than my male and I didn't want to get him huge, but I found the best way to distract him while she was eating was to feed him too. So it's like she's getting a large mouse and he's getting like a hopper. And he would just like five seconds. And then you're like, crap.

And then you got it like, oh, now I need another one. Exactly. So am I really helping him by giving him like four hoppers? So, yeah. Yeah. Why is your male so obese trying to keep away from the female yeah the only time i've ever had i've only had that situation is breeding when i've introduced the male into the female it was gelatins that did it and it was

some jag did it well like biting each other no No, it bit and wrapped the male. She was taking that down? Twice? Yeah, you don't work with lollipops. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think they're

going to necessarily take each other down, but you get nervous. I've put several in buckets of water like if they don't let go quick enough yep yeah hold on i've been meaning to say this for a long i was just telling eric this when we were at carpet fest when we were driving out to the pine barrens for 22 miles of fun um the no snake fun no snake fun one very good snake it's not like yeah yeah yeah one very good snake um but yeah so that you know how you've spent i suppose actually you know i was been thinking

this for a little bit we should give some context to the show why are we here and that would be to celebrate the beginning of the 13th season of Radio 5. Woohoo! Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now, consistently over that entire time, you've been concerned about keeping animals that eat one another or have the potential to consume one another. Owen. Yes. True or false? Okay.

This is true. I got one for you. Go on. You know those speckled kings you got from Keith Yes they're on my list of things that will eat each other Oh they very much are They're psychotic

He got them From me And When I had gotten them I tossed them together It wasn't early in the season It was? It was like, Oh, well, I'll put them together and see what happens. And what happened was the male immediately grabbed the female's tail and

started eating her without constricting her from the back. That's what happened instantly. Instantly he touched her and started trying to eat her tail to head. He seems that he seems like he'd be that way. Because he's one of those, Keith's like, listen, he'll eat mice, rats, your fingers. It doesn't matter to him. I'm like, okay. And he

was right. Absolutely. I'm glad we had this conversation before breeding season, because now... And you're worried about blackheads. That was the part that was so funny. It's like, you've spent all this time being worried about blackheads yeah well that was the part that was so funny it's like you've spent all this time being worried about blackheads and it's like no dude you act that male has tried to eat that female right like in actuality it's not i've never

seen any any inkling of the blackhead is because i think if it were to happen first off it would happen to me second off it would be after i've spent a ridiculous amount of money on blackhead so that's why blackheads the main thing looking at my collection as a whole i don't know if i can ever pair my female ring python because she's psychotic alone and i don't have a male that is close to her size and she scares the crap out of me that i would spend the money on a ring python male and just to be consumed by him the other ring python female who had murdered two males is with ryan young so it's like i it's not the blackheads are just the ones i kept picking on but it is a general consensus of terrified with white lips ring pythons anything king snake i mean all my callies i'm like don't kill each

other don't kill each other don't kill each other and so far so good yeah don't put your negative negativity on the blackheads yeah right we hearts i've never had that here so my my helpful strategy for you is when you bring them out of brumation um ideally the male still and you can pair them up when they're still in shed and the male will breed instantly and because like in the instance so i had produced them from them three or four years ago something like that and um the female had shed first so she was like perfectly clean ready totally couldn't be more primed to go and he was still opaque tossed him in there instantly locked up and uh yeah no worries and actually carried through to a second clutch that had lesser fertility i wasn't trying to get

it you know it's one of those where they just she was bound to give a double clutch on that she just doubled on you okay yeah i definitely wouldn't repair them because i saw what happens if you, like, pair them later in the season. So definitely don't repair them. Go when he's blind. Got it. Go when he can't see. Exactly. And certainly watch them.

So, like, you'll see it. I mean, in both instances, I saw it instantly. Literally in the first instance. The twitching in the tail. Tried to eat her instantly. Not even. Yeah, he tried to consume her instantly not even he yeah he tried to consume her instantly uh without even killing her so it's either it's either breed her or eat her nothing in between those are the only

two options ladies that's a that's a red flag ladies don't ever don't ever put up with that in your lives in both instances it was that either was happening within 30 seconds got it so you'll know good something to look forward to at least they're not sneaky about it yeah i'll wait till he leaves yeah no no we're good that's the epidura we'll make you feel comfortable. Then we'll eat each other. He let his guard down. I nipped it while you were snapping. All right. Well, are we going to...

I think we need to... Yeah, we should touch on... I mean, that was the thing. You got to give some context to this. That's pretty impressive. It's just another episode. Another keep going yeah yeah i mean but what podcast has gone even half that time you know what i mean like eric says i get the quote when we get 15 joe rogan that's it i think and adam carolla yeah i mean reptile podcasts come and go like the wind man like yeah you guys are have that

longevity that's just not found in this hobby for sure and that's what we were talking about eric and i like i think the last episode that we recorded that's not out yet um we were like we always hear about every once in a while there's like a podcast it's like these guys have been doing a podcast for the longest reptile thing ever at four years i'm like that is adorable like it is how cute call me when you reach one quarter of what we've done 600 yeah yeah that's well it is kind of crazy yeah yeah i mean the part that's wild to it is that it's like as you said there justin i mean we're talking about in the context

of doing the podcast consistently over that period of time let alone the expansion that you've done and all this stuff in terms of the network having us you know we we have a show and all these different things let alone that if you even looked at it like i know that this is true again and it is you know certainly a correlation i would say on this that like you know a lot of people that are the big name breeders haven't even kept reptiles continually for that length of time most people don't continually keep reptiles for that length of time let alone a large number of reptiles let alone being in that consistently into having it be that meaningful to them you know so much of this because they're the hobby. What what's the colubrid and colubrid discipline? The discipline of it, right, is is so appealing that people will get into it. But I mean, life happens, all these things that it's rare to have someone, you know, just and it is like farming. You just got to show up day after day and stack days and stack weeks and stack years. And that's, you know, that's how it goes. Um, with, you know, through good times and bad times and challenges

and all that. But I mean, so it'd be, it's honestly, it's an achievement just to say that you're like where you're at with your collection over that period of time, let alone the facts, all that content that you've put out over that same time. To me, both those things are amazing. I just did the math. If you did one show a week for 13 years and it's an hour long, that's 28 days of straight talking. Straight speaking to each other. 24 hours, 28 days of straight talking.

And that's only an hour. You guys have not done many. I mean, season one was like more hours yeah grind you know we had something that would go past that where we're talking and it usually it cut off but it was no it actually recorded that last 20 minutes you know it was so stupid you could have taken that recorded it broken it up into two episodes part one part two what is wrong with us like why are you doing so hard it wasn't it wasn't yeah it's it's not how it was but still i mean having you guys recorded for posterity

for 28 days of talking you got nothing i mean i think at this point it's, the genuine number is probably like 60. Yeah, yeah. A couple months of straight talking. Like literally you can press play. Yeah. And two months later, you're still talking. Yeah.

You guys could be a white noise machine. My own voice is what it we just listen to fall asleep um yeah it's i don't know man it's kind of weird you think about it like i feel like we've i i guess it's like uh maybe a unique perspective that we've been through so many things in the reptile hobby you know i mean you know legislation that's going to take things away people coming and going people passing away that you know you know i mean collections changing and like i don't know it's just i had eight carpet pythons when we started i was in my 30s i was in my early 20s yeah i was a child i just yeah oh my goodness

yeah it just seems like uh i don't know it's not even to mention, right. The, you know, the carpet fest and, you know, the thing that I've, we're all super excited on now, you know, with the trips in the last, what, five or six years, you know, kind of doing, I know Justin, you had did a ton before, but for the three of us, you know, that, that's more new and kind of a changing focus. And maybe that's an important part of it too, is that it's, it's the antithesis Nick's concern right oh don't do that podcast because there's not nearly enough

to talk about and the answer has become a that wasn't right in the first place but b is you're not talking about the same thing that you were talking about then both in terms of like your familiarity with the material what's even fair game right you know it's like we we talked to glenn bartoletti you know about herping in florida you know and this sort of stuff like that's that's not something that you probably would have thought in 2008 hey you know 12 years from now we're going to be talking to glenn you know 11 years from now we'll be talking to glenn about you know what's it like to her you know sandhill habitat in the in central florida right so i think there's something i think maybe it's um i think for me what keeps me going is just reinventing

what we're doing you know it's just like trying to just even me in the hobby like you know similar what you just said rob started out i was like want to be the carpet python king then i wanted all the morphs then i didn't care about the morphs. Then, you know, slowly it became more of the natural history. Then it became herping. And now it's kind of like a mix of all of those things. And each time your perspective changes a little bit, you know. Sorry, Justin, I didn't mean to cut you off.

No, no. I think one of my favorite things about the podcast, too, is how positive you are and how you keep it. You keep it positive and upbeat and promoting the hobby, not tearing something down, not going after somebody, avoiding the drama. Yeah, the drama of the week or whatever that might be. It's been really – I mean it's a refreshing thing to listen to something that's like, okay, this is just good, you know, good podcasting. You know, I can feel good about what I'm listening to. It is terrifying when he's not positive and I have to be like, oh, God, I have to be the voice of positivity? Oh, God, no.

Like, yeah. There's some things that come up. And usually I find that if I sit on it for a day the next day i won't feel the same way but right at that moment you know so i'm always running things he's like he types a bunch of stuff and then he's like okay i'm like okay and the next day he's like going back to him like out here we go like that time the struggle is i don't know maybe you guys can relate to this it's like if you have a platform do you have a responsibility to call out things that are bad and you know you know what i mean it's like this battle of like no i don't want to get involved

in drama but if you see something that's not right, is that considered drama? Do you call that out? Do you not call that out? It's like this line. I will say that it's very tempting as a reptile podcaster to be pulled into the drama because it's great for ratings. I mean, it's great for ratings. Human beings want to look at the car crash as they drive by that's what they want to see you

know in the moment right because i mean that's the other part of this is so many you know almost all if you know if not all of the episodes that have come to this point right realistically you could listen to now and enjoy the the ones where that wouldn't be the case would be things that are super um contemporary to the time where they were made right and that's the thing with the drama and you know there have been little sprinkles of that you know when it was just so boiling over or whatever and the you know if you listen to that now it'll be like well everyone knows what we're talking about from the facebook post and it's like well eight years later i have no idea what you're talking about and everyone is speaking in you know secondhand vagueness vagaries and all these

things so that it's like that's the one that those episodes are the only content that don't stand up to the test of time unless they're talking where you clearly explain it actually doesn't matter who it was because it's actually just hitting upon a key idea of like hey don't say this sort of thing don't do this sort of thing okay there's do this sort of thing. Okay. There's utility to that. You know, that could be interesting, but there have been times, you know, when I would do the clip shows and things I'd be listening through and it's like, well, we all know what we're talking about. It's like, well, here, four years later, I have no idea. I have no goddamn idea. No idea at all. So maybe that's where, you know, kind of back into the, you're gonna go into the drama

either it needs to be so vague and say hey we're just talking about the concept of don't do x y or z uh or we don't think you should do that or at this point based on our experience or whatever or you got to fully own it and just be like this was the time person a did exactly this so that if i'm listening four years later it's like oh i I sort of remember that when person a did that, but you know, the middle ground where it's just like, well, we all know why we're here. It's like, no, I don't know. I have no recollection of that. There was a couple of those people in, in carbon.

Was name drop name and chain we we had a couple of those at carpet fest i was like do you remember this person was he that person who did this this and said that yeah oh yeah where is he now oh gone okay yeah so yeah yeah there was quite a few of those, but yeah, I don't know. You know, for the most part forgotten to history because that stuff, like Rob says, it doesn't stick. It's not evergreen. Talking about carpet pythons is going to be the same, you know, for the next million years and for the most part and talking about that kind

of stuff just goes away. So kudos though. Kudos for keeping it positive and uplifting rather than going down the drama route um yeah it's just not not that great i mean yeah i think it's kind of like cheap ratings you know yeah people do like a car crash people do like hearing fighting stuff and yeah i mean you know but yeah it goes away and you forget about it and you don't care about it anymore. So yeah, I've read the test of time, much like the plasticine era. Our favorite era.

Yes. Everyone's favorite era. Everyone's favorite era. I mean, come on. There are no other good eras. If I could go back in a time machine, I would go to the place of Dean. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Well, thank you. And yeah, I don't know.

What do you think, Owen? What do we got? Another five years? What? I want to take it to 20. We're teetering on the edge of some sort of rift where you and I will never speak again. Like something's going to break. It has to. That'll never happen. You'd have to try really hard to get Eric to be mad at you.

I know. This guy keeps trying to make up with me. It's like, why won't you be mad come back here wasn't that a steinfeld where george tried to break up with something they're like nope we're not no no sorry i've i've tried to retire several times eric's like and i don't accept your resignation and i don't know what to do after that so i could sit down turn on the mic yeah it's and i think i i think we're going to keep going until something stops us whether that is life coming up at either of us that would prevent us from continuing the show or one of us having to bow out because there was the thing

where you posted up about the 13th episode and people were like, oh god, Eric's retiring. Don't leave us with Owen and Lucas. And I'm like, Derek, that's cute that you think I would stick around. It's a package deal. Oh, hell no. He goes, I'm out. I'm done. You can keep your father tight. I'm out.

Nope, done. So, yeah. Yeah, everybody thought that was my retirement speech message of me like are you leaving please don't go did you read the post i mean that was kind of long but i got about halfway i just got really worried you were leaving yeah that was pretty cool but uh yeah it's it's you know i don't know it's a good thing that uh i wish i i guess the thing that i learned the biggest thing that i learned is like you just you just do something you don't realize the impact that that's going to have for the rest of your life by doing one simple thing

that you think means nothing and the people you you met, like being you guys and, and the trips we've been on, the experiences that we've had, like to me, I don't think none of that would have ever happened if, you know, I didn't record that first podcast in the bathroom. My entire herpetological career i think would be very different and i'm not even 100 sure i would be where i'm at if i hadn't joined onto npr because i was just one guy and my claim to fame is i had a very nice looking mpen female and that was all i had going so she was nice she was but i mean that was it so and now you can walk through a reptile show and people recognize you by your voice

yeah i don't talk in reptile shows i know that very quiet yeah it's it's one of those things where i don't know if i would have the collection i have and even have the animals that I currently have are the ones that I hold high in high regard in my collection. You know, it's what I've ever gotten. Timor pythons. Would I even have the rough scale pythons? Would I have dipped into collier bridge? So what I have, you know, what I even have had success with the Madagascar hog nose.

Like, why is that on the radar? Like it's that kind of stuff where I think it would be completely different. Probably. We would be fighting with each other in Hamburg. How dare you steal my customers? I'd run you over. You'd have quit by now. You would have done one Hamburg show and not wanted to put the baby snake in the McDonald's tub.

And then you couldn't do it. You can't do it. If you can't do that, you won't catch me at that might infested Tinder box that they call it. Hey, now, hey, now,

the new place had a tent. That's the only reason why I take the shot at the old place come on man that was a tinder box come on Owen you can't tell me that was not a tinder box I never did the August show because you could die there were one oil spill away from like that place burning down

you can walk in there and you smell the grease from like 2012 yeah you're walk in there and you smell the grease from like 2012 yeah yeah yeah you're eating the chicken fingers i bit one of those chicken fingers and cracked my tooth clean in half at the beginning of a show and i'm like this could be a good day like it's gonna be a good day yep no it wasn't but it did it did have that Jesus-inspired coffee or whatever. And although I'm still not certain whether that was actually like that it was that good or if that was just I just put you through hell. And so this was just any sort of anything that came even close.

Any fact similarly as good. Was it actually amazing or was it because you were just like in such a state of suffering at that point that it felt amazing? I'm not 100 percent sure this coffee place existed, that if this was not some sort of Stephen King-esque clouds party, that there was a coffee shop and somehow Eric sold a part of his soul and then left. And then now if I go there, it will be no coffee shop and a vacant lot. If Jesus is making that coffee, he's doing a good job. That's good coffee. I wouldn't expect any less the real question could jesus himself microwave a pizza so much but even he could not eat it it was uh yeah i don't know but rob that trip

is like walking up the the timber spot is nothing compared to the trips that we've been on since. I mean. That was an easy one. If that would have been one of those coffees at the end of the Grand Canyon thing, that would have been fabulous. I'm disappointed I missed that. But then I'm also like, eh, all right. I'm okay. I don't think any of us are going to do it again with you. I'm going to do it myself but then I'm also like, eh, all right. I'm okay.

I don't think any of us are going to do it again with you. I'm going to do it myself. You're on your own. You guys can park up at the top and be like, I hope he makes it. Sorry, man. I won't withstand another climb. I'll take you to the south room, but not the north room. Good Lord.

If I parachute down and climb up, it's okay's okay right because i've been working out more i'm like i wonder if it would be easier to do this again i'm like what the hell am i thinking why would i even want to go down there again it's not like we missed the snake there no way i kind of want to see it in the day but i don't he showed me like no i'm like he was showing at night and i'm like all right well i've been on mountaintops with these guys at night when there's nothing but darkness and that was disconcerting then he shows me a video of that stuff during the day and i'm like no i prefer the blackness i don't want to know what's going on over there like no you look down it's just nothing yeah black. Blackness was good. Blackness was good.

Yes. I think it was probably good. I don't know. For me having the most of, amongst this group, the highest reaction to height situation. To me, that was actually the entire, 90% of the challenge was that for me. At least on the way up, after we found the snake and all that um and my right quad was dying on the way down just from all that you know there was all your full weight into that step or whatever but um yeah i mean the up it was like this is actually fine

it's just that i know that the void is right there and i had intentionally not taken in any content because there's a ton of youtube content and stuff on that hike. And I didn't take any of it in. I took in the I downloaded the trail map. So I saw what the elevation did and it's just switchbacks and whatever. But the part that wound up being unexpectedly problematic for me, again, mentally slash emotionally or my cortisol level, basically i you know reached a point where i just literally i think exhausted all of it and that was when it sort of became fine um is that that middle section maybe that middle 30 percent you know uh 30 40 percent something like that where

there's not much elevation change you're gradually going down or whatever. But you're between 150 and 80 feet above the river on a three to four foot wide trail that is covered in loose gravel. And there's nothing. I mean, you know, the lesson to me, the thing that became amazing to me retroactively is that only a dozen people die a year in the Grand Canyon. That was actually the part that was amazing to me because i was like you could easily die if you lose your footing on this part that isn't even that steep you know but you just yeah you stepped on that rock wrong and it rolled out on you or what like you would die absolutely so this isn't a question this situation is like an mri situation so they tell you before you go into that mri that like you're okay with like enclosed spaces and you're like yeah now and i'm like yeah i'm fine with it it's totally then they

load you in and i'm like well i hate this like this is not okay so i'm like i'm fine with heights it'd be great and then i'd get there and be like no i'm not good with this because i remember we were in texas and we did that switchback hike all the way up to the one place and we got to the top and they had rocks like there was the edge of the plateau where we were on and then there was like little rock outcroppings that were messing with my vision like i was tripping out and i'm walking like one foot in front of the other like in on this giant football field like thing as justin is doing his mountain he's hanging over the edge he's like oh let me see what happens if i leave my body it's my briar it's my briar patch you know when you're raised on the cliffs yeah yeah i've been stuck on a few like pretty

precipitous you know areas where i'm like how do i get down from here? You know, when I was a kid. So it's like, okay, I figured it out now. Yeah. I feel a little more confident. Yeah. I just remember. I mean, I'm walking like a baby deer and Justin's like one arm. Like there's a lizard over here.

It's like the Sherpas when Homer fires the Sherpas. And they just like eric salvation on the way up was that he was so out of it that he you know i'm walking behind him and i'm just like dude you are just meandering you didn't you know yeah you're in the world i'm like i don't know why we didn't fly mpr1 drone that i named that is interesting why didn't we just fly that down and be like there's the snake back up it comes like i don't we have this technology guys what's wrong with you that's not as good yeah there's no story in that any disporting effort right you can't tell your great-great-grandchildren that you

i flew a helicopter and i saw a snake done yeah yeah it was um it's like uh so i i don't really well like rob i'm i'm sort of like somewhat iffy with heights um i do not like really tall roller coasters and when i first started dating my wife i had to go down to meet my father-in-law and he loves roller coasters so i couldn't be a bitch so i'm just like okay i guess i'm gonna have to get on this so i get on it and i'm like what if i just close my eyes and then it's like not as bad i think it's worse i think it's worse if you're on there cutting your eyes no it was it was it was no no it wasn't it wasn't as bad but it's how he looks over at you like a bitch in front of your father no no no no no are you closing your eyes, Eric? Is that a tear? Is that a peace pod?

No, I made sure that he didn't see me closing his eyes. I'm not stupid. I may be a bitch, but I'm not stupid. But that was kind of the feeling I had with the Grand Canyon. It was like, I can't see it, so it doesn't exist. And then when I watched it back on the video, I'm like, what did you do to me? Because to Rob's point, I think I was kind of like. Just push him towards the wall.

Just make sure he stays on the wall. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, that was wild and again i just highlight that the part that was actually concerning to me is that uh when just the night before when justin dustin and nipper like questioning the sanity of the scheme i'm like um those guys yeah like if justin thinks it's a bad idea it's like yeah but you hang off the side of mountains yeah it's bad why do you think this is a bad idea that's after a good night's sleep you know if i'm doing it while i'm supposed to be sleeping then questionable

i wouldn't want to do that more than one night. And I mean, frankly, driving to Vegas was a pretty treacherous thing. I was hallucinating part of that drive. Stay up because I was like, this is the sort of thing where if he knows that I'm awake and I'm like, yes, hello, I am also awake. You cannot kill us all. Thrilling conversation to be had. Are awake yes i am also awake we remain awake okay this is fine and we will carry on but like it was one of those where it was like man if he's doing this by himself he definitely oh dude no for sure yeah i would have i probably would have pulled over and just slept somewhere you know for another couple hours halfway through or something. That's why I was like, hey, let's go look for chocobos. You know, let's go.

I do. Yeah. It's like. Like, I got to move around, get the blood pumping because I'm going to fall asleep otherwise. You notice, like, I ran to the bed after we got to the Airbnb. Yeah. You're like, I'm passing out for the next several hours. It's coming.

I need to get somewhere soft. Yeah. got to the airbnb yeah you're like i'm passing out for the next several hours it's coming i need to get somewhere soft yeah the funny thing is then i wound up like you know call calling home and said i didn't even go to bed you're a different breed of human yeah yeah we get home from herping and it's like four in the morning and rob's hey anybody want to stay up for a drink and a chat for another three hours i'm like that's uh no the funny part is we're all in like the communal areas and we're all like nursing busted up feet and other stuff and then rob just comes in it's like here here it's like yeah sure i'll just i'll look at it and like hold it near my face because it's cold but yeah i've found that if you somehow convince me to stay up for like past the time frame of

like when i would be in bed then i'm fine then i'm like i don't want to go to bed now you know what i mean like it's like we start talking like when we're in california with brandon the california trip is wholly different he because eric's thing usually is to go to pull a Justin and, you know, he's like, I'm going to bed, you know, I'm out. But if you're not instantly out, then it's like now you're locked in. And in California, since it was just the three of us, I think you felt a pressure or like a motivation to be like, OK, I'm going to stay up with these guys and do it or whatever. If somebody else had called it, too, he would have gone right with you but if there were more people you know usually it was his father-in-law all over again brandon was closed his eyes yes yeah and again brandon's half our age so yeah i know that's the thing i always forget like i can't stand your age dustin

like yeah yeah yeah it's kind of nuts it's kind of nuts but that's the beauty of uh the whole reptile thing is that you're hanging out with all the different types of people and for sure different ages and background yeah for sure for sure it's weird seeing the younger kids come in to it now and it's like the 20-somethings i'm like i used to be you like it was what the hell happened hey you know how you're buying everything up and you're just like kind of shotgunning your I did that too. Owen's still doing that. It's a method to my madness. I don't know what it is yet. We'll figure it out.

There is a method. I've seen it. It was written on the wall. The method. He says, if you show anybody this, I will kill you. Eric doesn't believe me. So every once in a while, I got to bring him over and like pull open the drawers. And he's like, holy crap.

And I'm like, yes. And then I just close the drawer and then kick him out. So, yeah, he's got he's hiding some cool shit for sure. And he doesn't tell people about we won't tell them about it. The mystery. Yeah. Yeah. Smuggled them. it, Owen. The mystery. Smuggled them Owen Pelley Python on myself. He keistered them.

Thanks a lot, Owen. The only way to do it. This will be Aaron right when we're going to Australia. As Eric's getting a body cavity search. Enjoy the strip church, boys. Wait, you're Eric, aren't you? I recognize your voice. The second the person goes Wait, you're Eric, aren't you? I recognize your voice. The second the person goes like, you're Eric Burke,

Justin's just going to get out of line and just start going that way. We don't know him. I don't know him. Reptile Fight Club? What are you talking about? Justin's been talking about that guy. I'm the other Justin Zoolander. I'm Justin Zoolander. I'm the book guy. I'm the book guy. I'm the other Justin Zoolander. I'm Justin Zoolander.

I'm the book guy. I'm the book guy. I'm a scientist. You can't question a scientist. I wrote book books. Not anymore. I'm just doing regular books right now. How the mighty have fallen.

You're working on what? Like three books at once? I think two. I don't know. I haven't, I've been focused on one. So bad for the other one. I need to get working on that one too. Don't worry about those. Yeah. They kind of write themselves.

What are co-authors for? All right. Yeah. The next topic. I don't know. What is the next topic or is the next topic i don't know what is the next topic or is the next i've had my topic now it's your topic i i have no topics i've just been kind of rolling around i've been kind of figuring that there would be some sort of fight club topic let's fight let's say what do we fight about all right let's do it well um i think uh you you you pitched the the idea of permits. I guess you made a comment and maybe you could fill us in on the back the back story of that. But I miss. So, yes, we're talking about a carpet fest. We were talking about the couple of things that have happened in the news lately, the, there was the venomous bite and, uh, you know, that created a whole bunch of controversy. And then, you know, um,

what was the other thing, Owen? I don't even remember. There was the venomous bite, uh, there, and plus I think there was like numerous alligators that were loose and, um, yeah, I think the news over the past year for reptiles has not been very kind yes and the problem is it's all to our own doing so i remember there was this uh there's i don't know if you've seen it but there's a a documentary about keeping chimps and it was by the people that did the tiger king and they're doing a reptile one so my feeling at carpet fest talking about it was that maybe the

reptile hobby should somehow start to regulate itself similar to i think falconeers have done something similar to where they have like a... Yeah, falconeers are very regimented. Right, you know, so they're sort of staying ahead of it. Some people will not believe that. There shouldn't be any laws. You shouldn't be restricted to keep anything. But I think in this day and age that if we don't start to, A, police ourselves

and put something in place that works for the reptile community the government's going to come along and do it for us and it won't be as pleasant and that was another thing too is that apparently there is rumors of the usda regulating reptile breeding and breeders and stuff like that so there's also talk of regulation and licensing and stuff like that that might be needed so we kind of talked about a permitting system and something that could be in place and whether that would be good or bad as well as i think we went off on a tangent of no one should own a bear or a chimpanzee or a tiger and it's like we all kind of agreed on that.

And then Eric, I think stopped up and he said, I don't want to tell people they can't own a crocodile. I'm like, I do. I don't think you should. So, well, what I said was, yeah, well, no, what I said was is that there probably are certain people that could. Yeah. Probably very few.

Maybe those are very, very few people on your hand. If it has something to do with, you know, somebody doing research or something like that, I wouldn't want to stifle things like that. But, you know, where's that line drawn with that? Right. All right. Let's flip the coin. They count it on their hand. That's the real question.

Yeah. Great. So I guess we'll say, you know, in favor of putting in a permit system and opposed to that. So, all right. Well, who wants to call the coin flip? Rob and I will bow out, but... Owen? Tails never fails.

Tails never fails? You're're right tales did not fail although rob might argue that tales fails sometimes all the time yeah i think in the percentages and just kind of statistics it fails like yeah i don't think you could say never but say that um all right what side do you want i will argue pro permitting because I want to see him try to argue. Okay. You know, there you go. Wait, wait, I'm fighting you. Oh, no, no, no. We'll do pro.

You guys will do pro versus. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sorry. So we will do pro. You guys will do against permitting. Okay. Are you going to chuck us or are you going to go first? Should we defer the kick or should we accept it now is what you're asking?

Yes, Owen. No, you just choose the kick and then we get it at both the, you know, both the kick and the second half. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'll let you guys go first. Go ahead. Dazzle me with your arguments. All right. You chucked half. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'll let you guys go first. Go ahead. Dazzle me with your arguments. All right.

You chucked us. Yeah. Okay. Well. And I will chuck you, Justin. Yeah. I will do this. I'll start off.

So, you know, you mentioned the Raptor system. So they have, you know, a permit system. I don't even know if it's a permit, if it's completely self-regulated or they have to get, I don't, I don't know a ton about it, but you know, there, there is some training involved. You have to have a mentor that kind of, you can only get there. I think there's two species you can start with and you catch your own bird and that kind of thing. And then, um, you can kind of work your way up through the system. You have to show, you know, demonstrate that you can care for them properly and all that kind of thing. And then you can kind of work your way up through the system. You have to show, you know, demonstrate that you can care for them properly and all this kind of

stuff. I think, you know, when you're talking permits for certain classes of reptiles, I think there might be some merit there. But if you're just saying, you know, we need a permit to keep any reptile, then that becomes difficult. And then where do you're just saying, you know, we need a permit to keep any reptile, then that becomes difficult. And then where do you divide the line? You know, is it constrictors over, you know, they get over 12 feet long or 10 feet long or eight feet or four feet? You know, what's a big, you know, most people come into your reptile room and go, whoa, that's a big snake. And you're like, it's six feet long. Or you tell us, I have a six foot long snake. And they're like, oh, that's huge. Not really. A six foot long snake is not very big, you know, for, for a experienced reptile keeper. So to say maybe, you know, you need a, and, and

in most States, you probably do need a permit for a venomous reptile, except for maybe where you guys live. It's kind of wild, wild east. But in Utah, you definitely, you can't keep any venomous reptiles without a permit. And they're very stingy with the permits. And so, you know, it kind of regulates itself. Now that doesn't prevent anything from happening. You know, you can still have a moron that gets an inland taipan somehow and keeps it in Utah and gets bit. And then they say, well, ah, you know, we had a, we had a system in place and, you know, you can't legislate away idiocy. And so, you know, not to say that a permit system is a bad idea, but in general, they usually legislate to the, the strictest, you know, so they'll say like no reptiles without a permit. And, you know, you have to do all this to get a permit, you know, and that that could be detrimental to the hobby in a huge way, you know, where they just say, OK, nobody can keep any more reptiles because they're all dangerous and they're all scary and nobody likes them.

So go away. You know, that kind of thing. I do think that there's so much industry built around reptiles, you know, cages and feeders and all sorts of support products that, and, and,

you know, who's going to legislate a tortoise, you know, come on. They're pretty, maybe a sulcata. I don't know, but you know,

like there, there's probably certain reptiles that could be good spokes spokes animals for for, you know, that kind of thing. But right where they they basically have that and there is even there a limited exception of right some animals there's a lowest class of animals that can be sold in pet stores do though maybe in some of those um states they need a license does a 10 year old kid who goes into that store to buy the lowest class of animal did they need to apply for a license as well i believe so yeah it depends on the state i think but yeah yeah i think there's some variance between states but i mean i guess that's typical of the ultimate nanny state we thought it was singapore but it's actually australia um just everything's illegal but uh yeah you know there's you know that's kind of crazy on it's on the other hand right if we're in a place where a kid can't go into a store – and I think frankly, honestly, the idea with Australia is they're not interested in people being interested in reptiles and in their wildlife and in even wild places, right?

I mean there's a reason they strip mine it and sell it to China so that it's like – it's actually not in their politics. It's not in the politician's politics to have people be interested in wildlife that's that doesn't fit the agenda they're they're almost they're almost protected into extinction like certain mammals people would work with you know using their own dollars and cents to you know fund it but they say no no nobody can keep this this is endangered this is rare you can't do this but they're disappearing anyway regardless of whether people are keeping them or not so legislating them into oblivion yeah and just crushing crushing the interest right i mean the kid you know in australia right the the eight-year-old

kid who goes in his backyard and picks up uh you know a blue tongue right that kid is actually a felon that That's cool. We'll see if they charge him. That'll be fun. Seriously. I've never seen so many illegally kept reptiles when I go to Australia.

Maybe it's the people I was dealing with back in the day. Oh, you're now an associate. What does that say about the three of us exactly we'll probably get searched on yeah on our way there here home so i would i would start saying by that i'm i'm very much a person that's into liberty and freedom and and of that right um our state is kind of like that but you got the liberty bell it's a broken bell but i also i'm not naive yeah i'm also not naive to the fact that pita and humane society are trying to shut down pet stuff right right across the board reptiles the

low-hanging fruit that's the easy one because you know it's the reptile hobby has grown immensely since they started since i started hearing about them trying to push these laws but they haven't stopped the whole entire the whole 13 years of npr it's been every couple of years have been some new legisl is getting introduced. My thought is that why I do not claim by any stretch of the means that Australia's system is the way to go. I don't think that it's the way to go, but we're smart enough to come up with our own system to put in place. So a 12 or a 21 year old kid is not walking out of Hamburg with a Nile crocodile.

I think we can all agree that that's not going to end good for the animal or probably the person being generous a 21 year old kid like i've seen 15 year olds walk out of there with crocodile so fair enough yeah um you know um you're right justin some of those regulations as far as like what size is the right size and And, you know, I claim to, you know, my thing was is that I realized that an organization like USARC doesn't have the time nor the finances to sort of do something like that. But USARC arose from a problem that we were having, and it sort of was like the first step for us to sort of police ourselves. But I think that sometimes people are afraid to

police themselves because they don't want to admit that keeping a 20 foot retic and keeping 20 of them in a house in racks is they don't want to admit that that's wrong it's sort of like the struggle i had with the jag right i'm not saying again again i'm not saying that things like that should be outlawed or whatever but like for me that doesn't work you know so my thing was like okay i'm going to try to lead by example and say that to me this is like you know and i love the fact that owens still keeps them so it sort of puts on our show that we have you know what i mean like there's sort of this thing where it's like i'm not trashing on because he's keeping them but it's okay not to keep them it's okay you don't have to just because they're the

flashiest thing that you see on the on on social media or whatever because let's face it they're beautiful you know they they're easy to like get it like that but you know i think for new people coming in it's sort of like the debate that we've had forever. We've had this debate. It's over. It's done. We're done. We all understand it. But the new people coming in don't know that. And now they're coming in and they're either greeted with the, well, do your research, or you're chastised for keeping it. So it's like, you know, they don't fully understand it. I think we just have to do a better job of being real with what's going on. I'm not saying that we shouldn't keep them or breathe them or anything like that. I'm just saying that there should be, it should be okay not to do it. And I think like you see these people on social media and their influencers and

all this stuff, and they're keeping these big snakes. It's sort of like we were talking about earlier with the whole podcast thing. The easy way to get ratings is to just be drama and you'll get it. They'll come. They'll flock because people want to see. I think it's the same type of thing with a lot of people that are using animals as an influencer that they're showing these big animals because they're impressive or they're, you know, oh, my God, he's going to die type of thing, you know? And I guess it's a bit hypocritical because probably Steve Irwin was one of the biggest

ones of doing that. But the only pushback I would give on that is like, then why did we see it differently and not necessarily do that? Why did we not see him in that light? What was it that, at least in my mind i didn't see him that way until i started talking to other people that were saying about you know things about him and you know all that kind of stuff i don't know what are you saying okay oh the the difference was with steve irwin maybe because i you know i see that like he i think he opened the door for a

lot of crazies to come in like you know turtle man and stuff like that where you know making them look scary and dangerous whereas he was kind of doing it in the name of conservation and understanding and like you know that kind of thing and most of the stuff he was working with was was wild animals and not yes necessarily things or or you know like crocodiles at a zoo or whatever you know? So I don't know that maybe there's a line there that's a little different where you're showing something in the wild. That's a little different than showing it in your, you know, zoo or your pet shop or whatever. And I think when you show it from that perspective in inside your, you know, an enclosure

or a zoo or whatever, or your pet shop, you're saying, look, you know, I do this and you can do it like this too. It's not that big a deal. And, you know, look how fun this is, this giant 20 foot Python striking at me, you know, so don't you want to be like me and be cool and have this giant Python and, you know, get all these views. And, and I think too, you know, when we, we talk about like, okay, you know, term limits on, on, uh, house and Senate, you know, representatives is probably a good idea, but they're the ones that are voting on it. So they're probably, why would they do that? And I imagine, you know, if there's some kind of legislation that's saying, Hey, we want to get rid of these giant pythons, then influencers with

pythons that have, you know, they're making millions of dollars, you know, a year, they're probably going to be able to fight that a little better than if they say, hey, we're going to take away, you know, your carpet pythons, like the carpet python community would probably not be great at fighting, you know, that legislation. They might have an easy win over us. But the idea of having something in place that shows me that you took the time to, say, like go to a weekend course to show me that you know what you're doing. Because the problem is, is that when everything's open to interpretation of you can keep this the way you think it's right. Half the time, it's not adequate for the animal it's not adequate for anything else and we have problems so it's from a husbandry standpoint we've all seen things

all watched things and the reptile community does no favors for itself i think the big story right now is that two bearded dragons were shipped via fedex in an in a glass tank that was a five gallon gallon glass tank with a live animal we don't help ourselves so the problem is is that there has to be some way for somebody who steps out and actively harms the animal by what they feel is doing that there's some kind of stopping. Like, you know, I don't want to keep these people who decide that the best thing to do with their retic is to drain the abscess with a K-bar knife and then move on to the next one. I don't want to keep this stuff, but I can't tell them to go away.

And even if we, as the community, say to shun this person, it is a large community and there are going to be people that side with this person. So it's like they should lose the ability. They should lose the ability to keep those animals. If you're not going to do it right, you don't get to keep them. So I think having something where you could go to a course because they have courses where kids can get hunting licenses to go out and hunt and they taught how to do this maybe there could be something in place where there could be a mentor program where somebody who is really interested can get involved and can get a permit and then can go get the animals and keep them correctly but then there also should be some kind of punishment other than watching a bunch of cops

and uh asbca who is not equipped for these animals pulling like tubs and tubs and tubs of venomous pythons that have just crammed in there with sheds and disgusting water bowls out of an apartment in philadelphia again like it's like there has to be something to prevent that or stop it. And if it causes us to have to change and move the ball forward as far as welfare for animals, the animals that we keep, is that really necessarily a bad thing? So I don't think it's a bad thing. What I would say is that I do think sort of the cynical viewpoint or the feedback you'd get a lot. Right. Is there's a whole cottage industry of outrage politics, you know, folks that are monetizing that at this point.

And do we really think that they're going to give that up and walk away and go, oh, hell no. I mean, we did this. And so, like, oh, actually, you know, oh, actually, they implemented an effective system that lets the, you know, responsibly keep those things. They don't. PETA doesn't want, you know, they want to give dogs and cats the right to vote. They want to release them. PETA's over there. You know, you know, so that that enemy to the to the hobby, to the discipline. Right. That's not going to go away regardless of what we do. So I think we just need to keep an open, you know, realistic, from my perspective, mindset to that of saying, like, to some extent, I'm totally with you.

I do think that there's value in education, right, in mentorship. That's a big conversation. You know, we've hit on that here. But I think it's naive to think that those groups with very vested interests will just pack up their things and go home right no they will never well yeah they actually tried to put this thing together tried to be responsible yeah when their goal is zero keeping you know nothing right right exactly right yeah there's never gonna be a middle ground i like the idea of us yeah but you could have oh sorry i mean i like the idea of us. Yeah, but you could have. Oh, sorry.

I like the idea of us being the ones who come up with the standard operating procedures. Yeah, they're going to try to chisel away at it. But if the reptile community as a whole were to try to come up with something before allowing people who've never kept a corn snake come up with the rules, it's like I'd rather that happen. But you're right. It's not like it's going to go away but why present ourselves in a way that we're just a bunch of mindless idiots running around shoving reptiles into uh bins you get at walmart it's like it'd be easier to kind of paint it a little bit better but i get what you're saying where the people who have the goals of eliminating it

aren't going to stop just because we try to make it a little bit better no no because you're right they don't want us to have it i get right i understand that but like i'm trying my my thought would be that you know why make it easy for the government just to side with them because you know, why make it easy for the government just to side with them? Because, you know, I mean, I don't know. I think that we come across sometimes professional with some of the professional people in the hobby, but then there's also a lot of unprofessional people that represent us in these things. And I guess my feeling would be, it it's like why not have it similar to what we have with us art i don't know what that entails i don't know like what that means as far as like i'm not saying that things should be outlawed and this should be the but like something like that guy samson

pruitt that shouldn't happen how does that happen and how is there people that still support this guy i don't get it i don't get i like to me i don't that that doesn't connect in my brain it's like you say you're about the animals but then this guy is abusing animals clearly and yet there's people in the hobby that still support him so does that mean that we shouldn't outcast him because there's people that still support him no you know what i mean like i don't know at least that's my thinking like no i'm not gonna like him just because other people think he's okay. And what he did, or he has some kind of excuse or story or whatever. Like, I get it. You get in over your head sometimes and you know, you're like, oh shit, I took on more than I can. I've been there, you know? And it's sort of like, you have to make a

decision at that point. You have to be a grownup. You have to say, look, this is another thing that's living in my house. Either I can take care of it or I can't if i can't then i have to make the decision not to take care of it but i think i don't know i i i hate talking about this type of stuff because it always makes you feel like i feel like i'm supporting the other side almost but it's like i think i think at some point we have to come to the realization that uh they're not going to stop and does you think you know one of the things that zach brought up when we're sitting around the campfire is like he's like some places they don't even do they just do a white list they don't do the black list they do a white list and this one you can keep you can keep a corn snake you can keep a bearded dragon and you can keep a leopard gecko

that's it so like we're gonna be at that spot maybe at some point hopefully not but you never know we're we're kind of already that way yeah kind of people what do you keep corn snake you know crested gecko ball python like it's sure it's a pretty short list and i i think uh brian barcheck kind of uh put it in terms that really helped me kind of see this a little bit was um there's the tinley crowd and there's the non-tinley crowd that me kind of see this a little bit was there's the Tinley crowd and there's the non-Tinley crowd. That's kind of what he used. And I think, you know, there's those people who are so vested, so just passionate about reptiles that just continuously learn and grow and build and, you know, like us, you know, we are never going to stop thinking and, you know, obsessing about

reptiles until we're dead. And, and then there's the rest of the world that just is like, oh, my kid's bugging me for a reptile. So let's go into PetSmart and find, you know, the cheapest thing that's probably, you know, that will live the shortest amount of time. So he stops hassling me, you know, and then they get it and the kid loses interest you know that kind of right so and that's the majority like that's most most people who are gonna buy a reptile so samson pruitt that name doesn't mean a thing you know it means a thing to people that are vending reptile shows that are looking at this guy going he is a dirt bag you know he's we know about this stuff he's doing. But the general, you know, the general public that walks in off the street to buy a crested gecko or a ball python. Couldn't care less, you know, never heard of him, never will hear of him unless they go by his table and they say, oh, I want that thing that he has on his table because it's ten dollars less than this same thing on another table.

Sure. But we know what he does. I'm saying that people like us are still supporting that guy. Exactly. You know, vote with your dollar, but if we're not buying from him, it doesn't matter because the masses are. You know, the general public are the ones who are doing that and supporting them because they're ignorant and how do you how do you how do you prevent that or how do you fight that it's very difficult kind of my

question con artists get away with stuff because of because of the naivety of the majority of people you know i don't know i look at a whole industry like the nutraceutical industry is just it's not regulated it's kind of a free for all. They can put anything they want in there and people buy it hand over fist because they, they, they're sold on this dream that it's going to make them healthy when it could just be nonsense and garbage, you know, like they do that with food too. Yeah. They feed us garbage and it's pretty insane. I, you know, listening to a talk today at the university, it was really crazy. It was that sperm actually carry genetic information that's not, you know, it's, it's epigenetic information, so not contained in the genome and they can pass it on to their offspring, things like obesity or, you know, like health problems because of their unhealthy lifestyle, it will transmit in the sperm to their offspring. And they discovered these different types of RNA that are carrying these messages

from the, from the father to their offspring i thought that was insane wow really crazy so you know i i don't know that maybe that ties in where you know people make bad reptile decisions and then their kids do because they're passed on that so it's my dad's fault your dad kept burmese python so you know yeah it's you know, it's just, it's epigenetic, Eric. Sorry, Colubrid Fest. It won't happen. It's in my genes. So, you know, I, I think that that is, that is part of the problem is that we are not

the only people that are supporting these people. The ones who know, yeah, we, we might be able to make a difference if we, you know, if, if we can get them blocked from shows or, you know, we reduce their audience, we reduce their, their capacity to interact and sell. Um, but that's difficult because there's so many shows, there's so many outlets, there's so many things that they can do to get around it. And the, the minority of people who know their bad intentions and their bad acts doesn't prevent them from doing that, you know, until something like legislation comes along and, you know, either ruins it for everybody because of the few bad apples. I just think you rarely see common sense legislation in these regards, and it's usually just a blanket ban so it would hurt us as much as it would hurt anybody you know but that's sort of that's sort of my pushback it's

like i'm saying that we should do it ourselves before they do it for us i mean if we have some kind of system in place again i'm not saying that i'm the one to make it up or know anything about how it should work and i know that it's super crazy and difficult or whatever, but there's a lot of smart people in the reptile hobby that run things as a business and they want to be successful. And they, to your point, it's a huge industry. And I would think that, that, that somebody would be thinking about this, this, you know, but I, I think, I don't know, kind of like the free for all type of thing. I, you know, I, it's, don't you think that people like that more or no? Sorry, Rob. So now you're good. I think the, just in hearing this, I think basically where it's at is USARC actually does this. I saw this in Colorado when the legislation

changed and it's sort of been this whack-a-mole approach. As legislative legislation comes in, then U.S. ARC is having local people and engaging with those lawmakers as they put that together, and then trying to shape what that legislation looks like. I think this is part of the problem, right? We're probably not talking about federal legislation in terms of what this would look like. So it's going to be local. And that basically, practically, this does happen now. And it's thanks to the efforts of U.S. ARC that I think often go underrepresented because we think of them in the context of sort of the big ticket items, either the national legislation or the floor, you know, U.S. ARC Florida. So so famous as being distinct from the efforts they put in to Colorado, right?

There was a change in Colorado legislation 10, a dozen years ago, something like that. And they, you know, Bill Goss had come out here and met with local stakeholders, talked to the people putting in the legislation and said, okay, well, they proposed you would need a permit if you had more than six reptiles. And it feels like feels like about 400. Yeah. You know, that's sort of like exactly engaging in that dialogue of saying like, but to have if if there isn't that strong voice, you know, that is countering and saying like, OK, I see where you're coming from with six. How about 400? And then you wind up at 200 or something like that right that only happened because that conversation occurred and so i think maybe to some extent the answer is this really is sort of happening and it's yet again a call to support us arc because they actually are doing those things and you know it's important i i think there's it feels like there's less utility

when it's some sort of when you're not in the jurisdiction that's being implicated. Right. If I get the national distribution email and it's like, OK, Louisiana wants to change the law to be X, Y or Z. Well, if I'm in Colorado, the lawmakers in Louisiana could not care less about what I think about this at all. You know, maybe a really open minded one would look at it and say, OK, if this viewpoint exists about these animals generally, maybe there are people within my community whose voice I do care about, you know, it would matter. But really what matters is giving USARC the capacity to show up at those things and engage in those conversations. And that's really how this basically is happening right now. And it's not that we're willing to do it. It's that we're being coerced. We have to. You know, the legislation will happen if we don't turn up, you say, OK, well, here's sort of our de facto suggestion.

Let's look at that compared to what you want this legislation to be. Can we meet in the middle someplace so that, you know, you're not at the same time lawmakers? What they really want is everyone to be happy. They don't really want anyone to be unhappy. Their ideal situation is like, hey, let's strike a bargain that I can sell to everyone. And that's that's really their ideal. So I think USARC has an advantage in that sense that like, hey, OK, you're hearing from one. Obviously, you didn't just wake up today and decide you're going to write reptile legislation. This is coming from somewhere. Someone is feeding this to you. Well, let's give a counter voice and arrive at an acceptable, hopefully, solution.

I think also it does not help that Eric and I guess it's because I'm not plugged into it. But you constantly see those things. And you think about how if you want to keep ownership fine, prove to me that you are responsible enough to buy it but maybe that is something just that pennsylvania needs to crack into because pennsylvania can't keep going this route of it's fine go ahead it'll live in a bathtub like that no one the issue is that pennsylvania is is very lax with their stuff but philadelphia is very strict yes with their stuff but most of the people that are going to hamburg are probably making well i shouldn't say most but a good chunk of people are making their way back to philadelphia with that retake

six-pack well same thing with you have people because New York is high on legislation. And then so is New Jersey, all of which are in driving distance to Hamburg and any other PA shows. So I know that people and there are steps that you should take in having an animal go to New Jersey because I've done it. You know, I've sold people animals and they've had to add it to permits or go through the systems. I've done it once maybe over my several years of breeding. But I can guarantee you several of my animals have ended up in New Jersey or New York. I think I was talking to Mike Curtin about this. Yeah.

There's ways to do that. And there's also legality and stuff like that. But it kind of seems like because the rules are so lax in a place like Pennsylvania, people kind of just come over and do whatever and then go back to New York and New Jersey. And there is a right way of doing things is a wrong way of doing things. I'm one of the only people who does Vend Hamburg who has A Department of Ag license for Breeding reptiles in the state of Pennsylvania I mean that in itself right It's not required Yeah exactly But I have it

Right And I kind of do it from the standpoint Of I'm Following as many rules as I can So that it cannot be used as an excuse to take my stuff. So let me ask this question. Do you guys – maybe I'm just not in tune with it and I was so young when I went there, but would Herp Societies fill that role? society have like maybe they have a mentorship program to where you do have people that would come and and mentor younger people on how to keep and and things like that is that state by state i don't even know do we have a city by city you know and county by county i don't know thinking

about this like i think you know a lot of, okay, you know, the forests are being cleared, you know, there's no, and then you look at some guy from India who decides, I'm going to replant this forest. And he just puts one tree in at a time. And pretty soon he's got this lush forest, you know, in his back, you know, the whole mountainside is covered with trees again, because one person made that effort and did that. And it seems like, especially in regards to to Herp societies, it just takes a couple dedicated people to just really make an effort, keep it going, you know, just grind it down, kind of like the NPR podcast. You know, you just keep going and keep doing it and keep going and keep doing it. And pretty soon it's it's a strength, you know, and it's a it's a it's, it's a strength, you know, and it's a, it's a big deal and it's a lead, you know, it's got a legacy behind it. And so,

you know, that's the trick is, is having the time and the effort and the, and the motivation and the perseverance to do that. And then you find yourself influencing anybody interested in reptiles in the area. You, you can grow and do more, bring in people to talk, you know, do field trips together, form those bonds. So we had a herp society in Utah that was pretty active and had meetings. And I met a lot of cool herpers through that. And then they went and tried to, you know, have some inside guy bust everybody and try to catch us on, you know, uh, illegal activities, which nobody was doing. And so they had to kind of make them up and, and cause this big drama. And it basically resulted in the, in the breakdown of the Utah Herp Society. And so it went away

because nobody wanted to deal with having some, you know, having some watchdog, you know, try to, try to get them on a technicality. So, um, you know, but, you know, having some watchdog, you know, try to, try to get them on a technicality. So, um, you know, but you know, if somebody would have been dedicated and just persevered through that, we may still have the Utah Herp Society and that might still be doing good. Now I do say that, that, that Herp Society did enact some, some smart common sense changes in the laws of, of the state that are in place now and that weren't in place at the time. And through that activity and through some of the work that we did together, got some laws changed and, you know, made some common sense laws in Utah, which is a rare thing

to happen. I know, but it's kind of a nice example of how it can work. Um, you know, plus or minuses in there, but you know, it, it overall, I think there's a nice change in there and they do have, uh, a method, you know, for their collection permit, you do have to, you know, take a little quiz and, and watch a video, I think, and, and kind of answer it. Yeah, and report when you collect something and pay five bucks for a permit or whatever. So it's not going to break the bank. It's not going to keep the kid from collecting the gopher snake out in the desert. So it just makes a lot of sense, and it's a nice system. And then also they can collect a pair of mountain kings and produce Utah locality mountain kings and sell those and that kind of thing. So captive bred animals reduce the number of animals from the wild that are being collected eventually.

So I think that's a nice system. My only grievance with the Utah change, because I agree with you, that actually is super positive, right? You went from a less herper-friendly to a more herper-friendly system, which is great and is the atypical result. My only gripe is that it's silent as to people that are not Utah residents. to be just an oversight you know within the law where i'm i read it the first time you know when we were first coming out or whatever and i was just like seriously it doesn't even imagine the idea that yeah somebody will be interested yeah yeah similar to california and other things i think arizona has solved it to some extent where they charge you more for an out-of-state hunting license yeah texas does as well. California. Pennsylvania would too. Well, California, I could buy a $10 weekend license and go collect certain things. And they're not keeping track of that.

I take them home. Oh, no, no. Yeah, they don't have the tracking functionality. I just mean in-state versus out-of-state. Yeah, yeah. That's true. I mean, ideally, because there's a herp society near me and they've had me come out and do some talks and stuff like that. But they're definitely geared more towards herping and being outside and observing in the wild.

It's like they they but they also do talks on keeping and how to do it correctly and stuff like that. So, you know, I would like to see some more education on that part to kind of be included in, you know, could be a push. But I think a lot of herb societies out there are hurting because I'll tell you right now that our herb society out here has not collected dues since 2020 and hasn't been doing and just kind of been limping along and they're trying to keep it still going and then they want to expand um you know their membership after they kind of set up how it kind of goes i think a lot of people out here don't want to see it kind of go anywhere so i would say that a lot of that stuff is definitely i think goes hand in hand with getting word out and kind of pushing that stuff forward because i think once again it's i imagine and as might be my own you know stupidity that there

would be some kind of outreach like like like Rob said about U.S. with the local laws and things like that. And they almost want to try to put the right people in place to try to push that boulder up the hill when certain things are coming about, whether it be bans on a local, state or federal level. So I don't know. Yeah, I think anybody who's going to pay dues to a society needs to have some benefit from it. They need to feel like they're getting their money's worth or that it's making a positive impact.

And so that's got to be taken into consideration when you're starting this because it isn't necessarily cheap or easy even to find a place to meet you know it's yeah be very expensive and difficult unless somebody says oh come to my house you know that's you don't want a bunch of strangers necessarily coming over to your home killing it i'm okay with that then you have people jumping off your house and breaking your shit yeah i think honestly that's what's killing you because it's the lancaster herpetological society and lancaster is a pretty big county out here and i just so happen to live right near the border of it but where they meet is still an hour into lancaster for me and it would basically be like if eric wanted to come out and there's no burks or uh bucks or

montgomery county herb society if eric wanted to come out he'd have to drive two hours to go to this meeting yeah and it's like that kind of takes away from it like you know it's kind of hard now this being the age of social media does he have to come out attend meetings to pay dues and still go out on herb trips or something like that there's a lot of different ways to kind of do that so it also kind of seems like you'd want people to kind of take the football and run with it and you're expecting somebody else to do it and then nobody does it. So, yeah, that's the trick is, you know, it takes a, it takes a lot of effort to keep those things going. And it also takes buy-in from the, from If it means driving two hours,

you drive the two hours and do that once a month. Is that really that big of a deal? Probably not, but if you do it weekly, that might be taxing. You've got to take all those things into consideration. I do think that herb societies are a great way to

influence that. I guess I don't have a lot of faith in, you know, this, this is just too big of a, of an operation. There's just too many facets and too many different areas. The only way that you're, you know, like I guess falconry for an example, you know, there's what, 400 and something, 450, 480 species of, of raptors in general, you know there's what 400 and something 450 480 species of of raptors in general you know birds of prey and so you know they're they have a kind of a niche of the bird keeping you know you can buy a parakeet and you're not under the same regulations as falconry maybe something like the crocodilianry or you know that you have to if you want to keep crocodiles, then you have to be involved in a similar thing or anything dangerous.

You know, venomous reptiles, giant pythons, you know, even sulcatas maybe would be a good. I would say the breakdown I would do would be obviously venomous, crocodilian. And then I would say probably like the big five constrictors. And then what you said about like sulcata, it's like I would say any tortoise from leopard up, like maybe not leopards, but like anything bigger. Like we're talking sulcatas, galops, aldabras, big things that one of those, like if you're going to need to have to build an extension on your house, I kind of want somebody to come and look at it, make sure you're doing it right. Yeah. That kind of stuff, or make sure that the animal's not going to get out, that it's being taken care of properly. Because, you know, we have these people out here who, you know, we have a sulcata.

In the summer months, it takes up half the damn yard and it runs amok and it eats all it wants. And then in the wintertime, it comes in a pen that takes up where I could probably have two or three stacks of snake cages. That's not bitter. I don't talk about that at all. But it's big enough how many squirrels could you have in that area numerous amount um so it's but it's a big enough pen that can come out it kind of has like a spot where it can run around walk around go in and sleep that i think is ideal other people i know take them put them in those horse troughs where they can't move.

They can kind of maybe shimmy forward or backward and they just kind of leave them. Now, I know that's replicating a burrow, but I also know this is an African animal that doesn't necessarily have to ever hide from winter. So I don't know if that's OK. I think you'd have to prove that you can support the animal that way now other things like you said am i really going to come check on it to make sure that you can give adequate space to a box turtle no i assume you can figure that out um the legality of a box you can't keep a box turtle in pennsylvania shut up all right i was trying to find something okay i know the legality of a box turtle but that whole thing like you should be able to afford it because i think

many of the things because i think the pet industry kind of cuts you off at a certain size they don't think anybody of their right mind would go this much bigger now the reptile industry jumps in and kind of supports people further with larger cages larger turtle tubs turtle tables tortoise things all that stuff like that but i think even then they kind of outrun the coverage when it comes to like i'd like a herd of sulcata tortoise they're like okay and i don't live in florida oh okay like you're gonna have to do that so i think a lot of those things where if you go beyond it yeah i think there should be some kind of proof that you can do it i think crocodilians fall into

this box for me more than anything right i think because in pennsylvania there's been what three this year this summer oh and the problem is is that three alligators that are loose and local because people they bring up the babies and people flood to the freaking babies that are at the tanks and people buy them up. And I remember when I worked for the zoo, it was every time there was a reptile show, there was maybe two or three weeks later. Or like the week after is when you get the freak outs from the moms who like the kid had no permission to came home with a baby alligator, had to go get it. But then there were several other times where throughout I just have to go get them. And they're always they're always alligators in creeks and ponds and lakes in Pennsylvania during the summer months because cruel people release them because they can't handle them anymore. They don't want them anymore. And they know they're going to die come October,

November. So it's like a non-start. It's not a problem. If they don't, it was an impulse buy. They have no clue. And they think, Oh,

I'll just do the right thing and let it loose. Let it loose. Pennsylvania. Exactly. Yeah. The thing is, is that I think if PA was as warm as Florida, we would of course have invasive alligators by now.

Like a hundred and ten percent. It would be all our fault. So crocodile. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, God. Yeah. So there's all that kinds of stuff.

And I think it's a nonstarter when it comes to venomous. You know, we can sit there and say, oh, we you should secure it. Yes, but you should secure it yes but you should secure it you should label it there should be some type of permit or license because if you don't do it right and it gets out now it's not you that made the decision to deal with this animal it's everybody else that has to and you know case in point the the the dumbass with the zebra cobra yeah oh yeah i remember him law and then and that's and that's the one that turned out to be like it's almost like for every one where there's a massive news thing and it's all over the place how many more is like it was

loose for a couple days but i found it in the, underneath the washer or it was loose here or the baby Arudaviper squeezed out of the, the, the little crack in the cage and we're all over the basement. I think my biggest struggle with venomous is, is like the whole idea that like, okay, um, if you are keeping this animal and you do not have the proper anti-venom for it or the proper to secure it or whatever you're putting other people's lives at stake now right because if you're getting that anti-venom that could have went to a handler that's actually doing something for you know venom research or something like that or you know what i mean like to help with a new medicine or something that uh you're you're taking that away i you know and that's a whole nother can of worms you know that like i i just think to me that's to me that's

the biggest problem with venomous i don't i don't care if you keep it it bites you and you die but like you you did that's that's your choice you know but like if you're doing that and now the people that you know like uh what is it the kentucky reptile yeah research zoo or whatever it is um zoo right yeah they uh you know they're they're at a they're at a spot right did they send this anti-venom to this knucklehead did they not send it to the the guy if they don't send it to the guy now you know the guy could die and do you really want that on your conscious but at the same now you know the guy could die and do you really want that on your conscious but at the same time you're fighting with the fact that this guy's being

irresponsible why should we support you know that's such a they just need a billing procedure and say okay you used it here's your bill yeah you owe us 20 grand you know that'd be people pretty quick or or if you had to buy anti-om, you know, if a seller was required to sell antivenom with the animal that matched what you're buying, then that $50 Cobra turns into a $2,050 Cobra. And then they're second-guessing that. That or buy some sort of membership. Like, you know, i pay dues to the kentucky reptile thing and now if i'm ever bit they have to they're gonna supply it that's that

benefit and they can choose to cancel that if if you're an idiot if i've been bit more than twice or something if they catch me on youtube just bringing it above my head like exactly yeah if you're caught doing things inappropriately then yeah not like on youtube yeah yeah but but then also i don't know it's it's hard because i think i i would be lying if i said when i was growing up the things that appealed to me were the giant pythons and the giant tortoises and the venomous snakes and you know like when i was 15 we were on a nature hike it's you know summer science nerd camp and and somebody found a rattlesnake and i pinned it and picked it up behind the head and showed everybody the fangs as a 15 you know an idiot 15 year old you know like i could have easily

said the first word is probably the important one there. Yeah. Well, Ben, Ben Morrill's friend picked one up at scout camp and did the same kind of thing. And he had, you know, restrained it properly and was holding it.

A scout leader came up and whacked while he was holding it, whacked it with a glove. It swung out of his hand and bit him. And then, you know, the, the, the scouting or,

you know, the church had to pay some crazy amount of his medical bills because he was also allergic to the anti-venom so it was like a big mess from some knucklehead moron you know scout leader that decided to you know mess around so you know it's it's i guess yeah it's it's a steep hill to climb to try to figure out common sense and things that people would buy into that are a little off in some ways. You know, I don't know. You know, we talk about the retic bros and the venomous keepers. You know, sometimes they're in a different league and different mindset of why they're keeping these things.

You know, you got the guy who's gonna get himself bit you know or inject himself with venom bit by bit so he can be resistant to to the bite of a you know a black venomous snake yeah mamba but it's never it's never anybody doing it that that person is never in some sort of research things. No one's paying him to do it. It's just me, my double wide, and my black mama. It's like that's not good. You know what would be cool is if a black mama could bite me and I'd survive. And I'd survive. Everybody would be my friend.

I would bite them. Well, just for completeness here, I do think we've left out in all these things the large lizards. Right, yeah. In all these things the large lizards right yeah and all these discussions in terms of i mean there's nothing invasive potential and yeah there's nothing like putting a croc monitor in a 45 gallon tank like that thing is switched on in a way that basically none of this other stuff is say maybe you can't go right there yeah yeah yeah that's a whole nother. Again, like,

would you, I mean, obviously you're not going to regulate a bearded dragon. You should be able to take care of that. But if you get up there, I mean, Tegu's are already on lists. So I think,

I think Tegu up would have to be something that would be reviewed. But then on that standpoint, do you feel that somebody who can properly take care of a bearded dragon should leave immediately into tree monitors because i think tree monitors are their own fragile australia well so where i think yeah where do you draw the line you know that a that's an inherent part of it and even amongst the states in australia right there are certain states where it's like oh you can have this but you can't have this and vice versa and all this stuff. And it sort of doesn't make sense, especially from the perspective that we have.

Or we'll look at it and say, like, that's crazy that you can't have X, but you can have Y. You know, so, yeah, it becomes super slippery. But I think to me, the focal point has to be the stuff that's actually like a physical threat or danger. So a tree monitor right i agree with you but there's you're sort of in the australia okay level of difficulty expectation of care how long should you have kept reptiles sure it's not going to hurt anybody yeah exactly except the lizard yeah the lizard you know there's a downside to the lizard but there's not a physical risk yeah you know to the people right yeah i mean or to the the random people you know the third parties that happen to get involved to win the thing sideways yeah yeah i the way i figure we could fix this is that um pay me five million dollars a year and i will draw up the rules okay that's it will be the

reptile so and i will be exactly and i will make all the rules and we all have to listen to them. There we go. Done. I figured it out. You think blackheads eat each other. I don't want you in charge. And they might. And he'll never keep something that will never put them together.

Yeah. Nope. I don't hear you bad talking. Those speckled king snakes. Oh, because I know because of the poor man's diamond. I can't get it. I know.

It's not a, maybe also the speckles are here. Blackhead here. So I, it is a, it is a, a very important top topic. And I think, you know, I, it, it is a, it is a, a very important top topic. And I think, um, you know, I, it, it would take some, some doing for sure.

And I think, you know, in some, some respects, certain species like, you know, Galapagos and Aldabras, there's already things in place to keep them. But sulcatas are one of the most commonly sold tortoises on the market because they have giant clutches of eggs and they're so cute when they hatch out and, you know, you think, oh, I can handle that, but can you handle a bulldozer? You know, that's the problem. And so I think, you know, education is big. Herb societies would be great. I don't know if legislation is the, you know, or permitting or regulation through internally. I just, I don't see it happening. You know, like, I think there's been a lot of talk about that, but I just don't, I powerful group within a niche to make that change. I think maybe the tortoise community might have the best chance of that. But as long as PetSmart can sell sulcata babies for $100, that's not going to change.

Am I wrong to think that the turtle part of the reptile hobby is more in line with the academics? It seems so. The academics are sort of more in line. Maybe that's another approach. Yeah, the high-end stuff, not your red-eared slider. No, that's the most invasive species on Earth, almost. By the way, not being a turtle guy at all, I really enjoyed the Ryan Dumas. Oh, that was fantastic.

That was a really good show, man. That was really good. I was like, I was about to do the, ah, they're talking turtles. And I was like, well, I like Ryan. Let me hear what they have to say. And I was like, ah, that was really, really good. He's a good guest. Like, he's a great guy.

Very, very great show. Yeah. He's a good guest. He's a great guy. Very, very great show. So actually the thing that in all this sulcata discussion that jumped out to me was when we were talking to Ryan, I think is the context for it. I hadn't remembered that sulcatas are basically the crested gecko equivalent of tortoises where they're actually endangered in the wild. This thing that is the ubiquitous, you know, the inappropriate, ubiquitous animal, not let's say in Crest, you get Hussar, but in terms of saying something that is everywhere in captivity, but in the wild would be an incredible find. It's wild, right? That sulcata tortoises in the wild are endangered. See, that should be the law.

You have to take three-fourths of your production and ship them off to africa the alligator repopulate the wild they're finally we're getting some have to release a certain number of gators into the swamps so yeah and that's the nest collection and all right yeah right that's part of it so but we missed that train we already we raided all the nests they're all just back the other way yeah it's such a it's such a delicate balance too because you see problems in australia with you know overabundance of crocodiles now in certain areas where the you know maybe they're they're a little too i don't know you know the imbalance you know it's like the pendulum has swung the other way and right now you

know now people are now the crocodiles are everywhere. And, you know, but, you know, what what is the natural balance and what kind of, you know, what do the tree or something. There's some cities that require you to pick all the fruit off of your tree by a certain time or else they come and do it for you and confiscate your fruit because the bears will get used to eating that fruit and then they'll keep coming back and that's their tree and they get defensive and they get aggressive and things. So, you know, sometimes know sometimes you know extreme measures are warranted and and it would be nice i just don't ever see it happening unfortunately i don't have enough faith in the yeah in those niches where it's needed right and except maybe the tortoise community maybe the tortoise people can get together but the problem, is that having us all get together and write up an SSP for a species, it would never work.

We would all disagree. We tried that. We can't. Do you guys remember when the Morelia Python Forum group got together and we were trying to make a list of different carpets? I think people were about to be murdered. Like it is. So it's like pulling teeth. Yeah.

So I don't think we can't even agree on whether certain lighting system is necessary or needed, whether a rack is good or not. So like trying to draw the pinnacle of reptile groups, you know, of course we are. I mean, my God, we're the gold

standard so and that that is you're never going to get over that hill because you're always going to have somebody who disagrees with it so having everybody come together and make a decision on that isn't it's not going to work what's going to end up happening is something bad is going to happen somebody somebody's going to do something stupid is something bad is going to happen somebody somebody's going to do something stupid and that's finally going to be enough and then there is like laws legislation stuff like that and they're going to pull the decisions right out from under us they're going to say this is what it has to be cage size this is what it has to be other size and this is what the animals you can keep so all right chicken right, chicken little. I've heard that for decades.

And I mean, yeah, eventually. I mean, by now, somebody would have stopped. I'm not saying that they're going to shut down importation from Indo because I've been hearing that forever. Like, you know, this is kind of ebb and flow, you know, but but I think overall, I think, you know, the the reptile community has achieved a certain status where they do have some power and some say. And, you know, we want to make sure that that's a well-supported organization. Donate what you can, support that because they do make a big difference in thwarting a lot of these efforts that are not well thought through and they're not, you know, in our best interest, but we may deserve them. I don't know. Maybe we deserve bad legislation to teach us a lesson and then have to, you know, double our efforts to get away from that. But, you know, talking about the four inch turtle law and that show that we did, you know, a couple of weeks ago, that that is a nice example how, you know, legislation might make a positive impact and where we saw a reduction of salmonella cases in children by 70%.

That's a measurable, quantifiable benefit of saying this is probably a bad idea to have these tiny turtles in every home. And the turtles weren't benefiting from it either, getting stuck in some child's mouth. So that's not a great scenario either. So, you know, we need to have some reality and say, okay, maybe it isn't a bad thing to legislate against keeping venom much of an impact, you know, unless it bites a cow or something. But if you're in the middle of a city and a cobra gets loose, that could be disastrous. That could be very damaging for people who run into that thing, potentially, you know, maybe the snake just hides and, you know, I don't know. But, you know, worst case scenario, that's a lot worse in a city. So, you know, I can see why there's an impetus to make some of these laws in cities, although people break those laws.

And, you know, I guess that's the whole gun argument. You know, you can't legislate against people doing stupid things or breaking the laws. So that's just something we, we shouldn't uphold. And, you know, in regards to your 13 years of podcasting, you know, that's, that's, uh, you know, sometimes you do need to call those things out. I think that is important where you, you feel that responsibility to say, Hey, I don't agree with this, you know, let the record show, you know, we ought to be better than this, or we ought to do better than this. And, and i think there is a place for that without bringing it down and being negative and you know that kind of thing so we can say this behavior shouldn't be tolerated you know we shouldn't have people in the community that are selling giant snakes to to miners or whatever you know like right yeah right Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know what the answer is.

I just did. I see it as a topic. What the hell, dude? I've been waiting for you to come up with one. Well, no, I think it's at of idea that maybe could ensure that we're able to keep these animals for some time to come. And it is easy to go out and chainsaw a bunch of trees and bulldoze a forest. It's a lot harder to plant that back tree by tree, but you know, who's going to have the legacy, you know,

the company that went in there and clear cut it or the guy who took his time and tree by tree replaced that forest. So be that guy, you know, do, do the things you can in your sphere and your influence to make a positive impact, teach people, you know, that, uh, keeping this or that this way or that way may not be the best choice. And, you know, there's consequences for those actions and be aware of that. You can't talk sense into some people, but, you know, I think the majority of people are fairly reasonable and you can have a good impact, uh, with those you interact with. And I think, you know, that a lot of times I see shows is kind of like, I'm not selling a lot. It's not really worth going. But at the same time, you're going there and you're educating people, you're talking to people, you're teaching them about the animals you have and why they might be a better choice than a 20 foot retic you know it's a anteresia it fits in your hand you know

it's right a better choice and in a lot of ways for most people and so you know that that kind of thing can go a long way even though it's not flashy and giant and scary and dangerous you know it's not a lot of bragging rights you can't walk around without your shirt on around your neck you know hell i can't i do constantly but um your children's python yeah the little children actually it's the baby spotted just like right here they're actually attached to your neck now they're here right now they think they can take you down but i i think eric says it all the time it's like you vote with your dollar and i think that's one of the only ways you can get some of the bad people out of

the culture or the hobby is if you make it financially hard for them to stay in it. Because, you know, that kind of stuff. I think my ending thought will be that to sort of piggyback on what you said, Justin, my approach is that I can't change what you three do. I can only change what I do and maybe I can influence other people. Well, you quiet, you be quiet. You just influenced him. Good job. So, yeah, I think, I think that, you know, if, if you don't agree with something or you think something's wrong or,

you know, I don't like the idea of like pushing things down to push something else up. I think you should just, don't worry about the thing you want to push down. Just show what you have and what you have to offer. But yeah, I just think that, you know, you can only do what you can do. And it's the one person plant in the forest. I like that, uh, that story. It's a good one. Yeah. It's impressive. I mean, yeah, it's such a rare thing, you know, but yeah, if we just do our best and put forth our best efforts, we can enact change. I think. Yeah. All right. Cool. All right.

I think we did it. we talked about it yeah i think this might be the longest uh reptile fight club slash we know you just looked at the time i was nothing for you guys that's all right although it is late for you yeah i mean eric's got to get up in like what an hour two hours and then he's got to go three hours three hours he's gonna go to the supermarket yeah yeah get to the hood yeah right i have to get in there before everybody wakes up or it's a gun battle yeah so that was tuesday oh my god but okay i don't know what you guys say to go but i'm just looking forward to seeing you guys

in a couple weeks well most of you guys can i bring the cut out owen it's the slow yes yes you can bring the cut out the slow mac and rookie yeah can i get the picture of you like where you come out on the side and i could just have you like up in my backpack like yeah just your head above me it'll be great it'll be a fly decoy the mac and wookie shirt showed up at carpet fest i saw that yeah and i had to sign it yeah how did he get that how did he um he knows the guy who won it from your competition and I was sick of it. They sent it as a troll and I signed it. So about halfway through in my haze of other things, I realized who I had to blame for this shirt. And I'm like, right. I remember where this came from now. So yeah, that was, yeah.

That's funny. Yeah. We definitely need an Owen Mcintyre window cling to put on one of the passenger windows i got i got i got two weeks to figure it out i'll get something made and i'll send something along with eric yeah that'll be great i can put you on the plane next to me and let's see no no no don't Don't. My friend's here. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you guys for planting 13 forests worth of podcasts.

This is good stuff. 13 more years. No, no, no. I'll probably be dead. Don't say that. You can't die before retirement. Yeah, come on now. I'm going to die the day I retire.

What are you talking about? Don't be one of those people. It's like, oh my God. That's what we do. We're doing four trips to Australia a year. A big party all day. I was like, oh my God, this is going to be great. I can herb all the time and just come home and be like that. I party too day. I was like, oh my god, this is going to be great. I can herb all the time and just come home and be like that. I partied too hard.

Too much celebration. I celebrated too hard, yeah. Do I die of naked girl avalanche? Remember me for my podcast and not for the murder. Oh boy.

Anyway, I guess for us, there's the Patreon. There's the Teespring store. Carpet Fest stuff's up there. There's cold-blooded caffeine for your coffee, cold-blooded cafe for your rodents. And, yeah, I guess the next thing is, when is this going to come out, Eric? Because it's 10-3 right now. The following Tuesday, probably the week that we're leaving. The calendar competition is closed and you missed it.

So that'll be something we'll deal with when eric gets back from yeah and that's when i was gonna get all the pictures to submit man well you wasted your time you could have just i'm pretty sure you have how many pictures of like your own collection and various other things you have pictures they gotta be wild those don't count yeah well i love it because nick came in there and he goes, challenge accepted, and he has yet to put in a submission. Nick? Nick? Yes. He came in there. Announced that he was going to do something and then

didn't do it? Sorry, Nick. He came in there getting ready like he was about to blow it up and hasn't done anything. It's kind of like the podcast that he said he was going to do. I mean, I don't know. Anyway. On that note, we will say thanks, everybody, for listening, especially for the 13 years that we have done this podcast.

We appreciate listening to every episode. We still don't understand why someone would want to listen to 60 hours of myself and my friend here ramble. 60 days. 60 days. Days, bro. Even worse. All right.

But thank you and we'll catch everybody back here next week for some more Morelia Python Radio. Good night.