Reptile Fight Club - RFC w Joe DeStefano - AIs the reptile business misleading?

Episode Date: May 9, 2025

Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comIGFollow Rob @ https://www.instagram.com/highplainsherp/Follow MPR Network @FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQSwag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

All right, welcome to another episode of Reptile Fight Club. I'm Justin Eulander and here with me is Bob Rock. Mr. Rob Stone, how you doing? I'm doing great. Yeah, excited to be here really good. Yeah, I'm a little, I'm dragging a little. We had our last water polo practice tonight and we had some games on Tuesday. This national player was rolling through town so he came and played with this and, man, he was tough to guard. It was a, it was some fun games though. Yeah. And he, I mean, he was kind of taking it easy on us because his last shot, he put the ball through the net, like he threw it through the goal, like through the net of the goal. So I'm like, whoa,

he was holding back, but that was a lot of fun. So I'm a little worn out this week. And then my daughter's got me out running. So my legs are killing me. I can't hardly walk up and down stairs. So you got to ease into those things when you're my age. I don't know. I can't just jump up and run three miles and be okay. I forget that sometimes, you know, my brain doesn't know how old I am, I guess.

But what do you do? Even despite the big birthday jamboree? Yeah. Yeah. I thought I would be in some somewhat, you know, walking shape. I don't think so. I think the trip that we did with with with my little Western Australia trip in there, I think I walked more on that one. I think I put in about 130 miles or so. And then this last one is about a hundred or just over a hundred, you know,

based on kind of the Apple tracking or whatever it does on you. So yeah, good time. So yeah, not running shape though. And I guess not swimming shape either. Cause that took me a little while to get back into too. We didn't do much swimming in central Australia, a little bit, but not much. Ellery big hole was a nice respite from the heat. It was nice and cold. So, yeah, well, um, we're happy to have a Joe to stuff, no, with us tonight and,

uh, grateful for him to come on and, and bring a topic with him. So we'll be getting into the topic here in a bit, but, um, welcome to the podcast. Joe, thanks for coming on. Yeah. Thanks for having me guys. I appreciate it. Yeah, no worries. So you, uh, do a podcast yourself or a YouTube show. Yeah. Yeah. It's a show on YouTube slash podcast. It goes everywhere. It's called clue, read corruption. Uh, it's a clue read related podcasts where I just have a bunch of guests on and we

talk about their collections, what they're doing and all that good stuff. So yeah, it's a lot of fun. Nice. Yeah, I gotta admit I'm not too great on keeping up on the clue bird podcast. I'm interested in him, but I don't keep many. So, you know, I guess I've got enough. But I'll have to check it out. So I'll get on there. I always say big credits to CCR because they're some of the guys that, you know, inspired me to do my own from like my own perspective. So cool. Yeah. Big shout out to those guys. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I've listened to a few there's probably I should listen to more.

Sorry, Zach. All right. Well, how do you let's let's hear how kind of you fit into herpetoculture. Yeah. So right now, I mean, I have a decent collection. I'd say most of my collection is made up of Texas rat snakes and Asian colubrids and ball pythons is the gist of what I have. Texas rat snakes were my like first love in the hobby. It was the first snake I ever got. I still have my first snake. She's like 15 years old this

year. Yeah, so I've been keeping for a while, but more so on a serious collection for the last going on four years now. It was just a matter of being like living with my parents, uh, not really having the space, um, when I moved down to Florida a few years ago is when I was really able to expand the collection a bit more and, but I I've been loving reptiles since I'm 10 years old. So it's been a long road to get where I'm at, but yeah, happy to be here. Nice. So you're currently in New York.

I am. Yeah. I you're currently in New York? I am, yeah. I just moved back. Out there. I'm still kind of learning my new room, like the environment and stuff. I'm learning it's a lot drier now, because I was down in Florida and I was keeping in my garage.

So ambient humidity was great for everything that I kept. Not so much here. Uh, so I'm still trying to like figure all that out, keeping the room temperature stable. Luckily enough, where I moved into, I have like each room actually has a, its own little thermostat, its oil heat, um, older house here on Long Island. So I'm able to control this room and keep it a bit warmer than the rest of the apartment, which is cool.

It's also like my little home office because I work from home. So not too bad, but definitely got to figure out this environment. I know brumating will be a lot easier for next year. So that's a plus on the covert side of things. Yeah. Oh yeah. We know that. We're out in the West. Like we just had snow today.

So yeah, it's kind of gone a little crazy lately. Coming tonight. It's headed your way next. Yeah. I think it's, yeah. It kind of turned into rain later in the day, but yeah. It started out pretty snowy this morning and then, yeah. What do you do? I guess that's the fun of living in Utah

slash Colorado. Yeah. Cool. Well, yeah, that's, it seems like, you know, Florida is kind of like the, you know, herp keeping Mecca or whatever, like a lot of people down there, you know. I would say so. Yeah. There's a lot out there. Um, just a big, on the full scale of the reptile hobby and industry, it's just huge. Florida's a mecca. I mean, when has it not been? I feel like it's always been the center of attention when it comes to even just imports, like the biggest breeders are down in the Southeast and stuff like that. So, but uh, yeah, I mean, I'm back here. This is where I grew up for the most part. I was over in New York city where I grew up and now I'm on Long Island.

So, okay. But yeah, it seems like there's a pretty decent, uh, Herb community out in New York as well. Like some of the, yeah, I would say so. I don't know the Northeast. I would say as well, because like I was saying, when I, when I really dove into gaining this collection, it was all while I was down in Florida. So most of the time I would go to the North East. I would go to the Northeast, I would say as well, because like I was saying, when I really dove into gaining this collection, it was all while I was down in Florida. So most of the connections I've

made over the last few years have all been Florida related for the most part. Definitely try, definitely would like to meet some more Northeasterners. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know as many on the East Coast. I'm kind of more doing shows on the West coast and stuff like that. But you know, through, uh, the, uh, more Elliott pythons guys, I've kind of met, you know, quite a few, uh, more East coast breeders and yeah, it's kind of cool. Um, but yeah, it seems like almost a world away in some ways, you know? Yeah, I know. Yeah, that's cool though. Yeah, so what's your favorite species you keep? That's a tough one.

Because I said like the Texas rat snakes, those are my one true love. I think they're an underrated species in the hobby as a whole. They just come so variable in so many different colors. But man, I really love the Asian colubrids too. Rhino rat snakes are amazing. I know Rob knows that. I love rhino rat snakes now that I have them. I keep some of the bamboo rat snake species too, which are all great. So it's hard to pick a favorite. I'll say Texas rats to make it easy, but, you know, the other two are, are definitely up there. Yeah. Now it's always good to go with your kind of first love. I think I feel the same

way about jungle carpets, you know, central and pythons, that kind of things. They were kind of what got me into keeping Australian reptiles for the most part. Yeah. Cool. Well, I don't know. I guess we can dive into our fight topic tonight, unless you got any other cool things you want to bring by us. But no, but I mean, before we get started, I really enjoy your guys's show. I picked it up more recently, I'd say, in the last six months to a year, but I really enjoy it and happy to be on here. I know you guys were asking for some topics, so I was happy to kind of lend this one and come on here with you guys. So thank you. Oh, yeah. That's great. Thank you. That's nice of you to say. Yeah, we appreciate listeners out there. It's always fun to know somebody's listening to our ramblings and nonsense.

Yeah. Cool. All right. Well, tonight we're going to talk about the reptile industry and if there's some misleading behavior in the reptile industry or if everybody's above board and doing the best they can. So yeah, it's a good question. Because I think a lot of people getting into the hobby, I think that it's kind of a mixed bag.

There's a lot of excitement and you just kind of go crazy and start getting, once you're able to start getting them. Well, maybe I'll save this for the discussion, but I'm launching into it already and we haven't even flipped a coin yet. Okay. Well, this, what this first flip will be between me and Rob to see who gets the pleasure of debating you tonight. So as usual, Rob can make the call. I'll say tails. Tails. Tails again, man. I'm losing every flip these days. Yeah. What would you like to do?

I hate to do a TJ twice in a row, but man, you were already going. I'm ready to listen to you. You got feelings on this. I don't know if the listeners will agree with you, but we'll, uh, all right. I'll take the, uh, take the topic tonight. So, all right, Joe, why don't you call this one? Heads. Heads. It's tails. Well, I got one out of two there.

So, um, I'll, I'll this one? Heads. Heads. It's tails. Well, I got one out of two there. So, um, I'll, I'll take the, uh, the everybody's above board and doing, yeah, not, not selling a box of bill of goods. Yeah, that's cool. I play, I planned on taking the, uh, the tough conversation here. Okay. All right. Well, again, I kind of launched into it, but being kind of old and jaded,

being around the hobby, I guess it'd be good to get a fresh take on coming into the hobby and what you've experienced. So I think that's going to be very valuable to hear that side of it from you. So yeah. I mean, just for context, sorry, Joe, just for context on this, I know we were chatting a little bit about beforehand and sort of what Joe was expressing was stuff that I felt more I could relate to or the experiences that I could relate to 25 or 30 years ago when I saw that a lot for sure. You know, I could understand certainly where someone would have that perspective of saying, I am being fed this stuff. And maybe you're at that point, you're not rejecting it, right? You're eating it up. But that was sort of my perspective more so 25 or 30 years ago, whereas today I don't really even see that content to reject it. And I think maybe that's just a function of who I'm talking to and stuff like that. So as you say, Dr. Jay, I think it'll be great to get Joe's perspective both from sort of

different species maybe is a function of that. And then how much you're engaging with people that are actively selling stuff as well. Right. Yeah. All right. Well, let's see. I'm going to have you lead us off and kind of tell us, start us out. Okay.

So I wanna preface this whole thing by saying, I do see both sides of it. Because I don't want everyone to go ahead and think that I'm like, like super- All negative. Yeah, yeah. So obviously I'm on the younger end, I'm 24 years old. So I've been in this hobby, I've been keeping snakes since I'm on the younger end. I'm 24 years old. So I've been in this hobby.

I've been keeping snakes since I'm 10. And I've seen a lot over the years. I worked at a pet store first. And then, like I said, I really jumped into the industry within the last three, four years or so. That said, and the question I originally posed was, do breeders sell newer keepers slash upcoming breeders like a pipe dream about the industry in terms of how much money they can make, things like that? Do they sell them this grandiose dream? And the reason why I do think this is true, and perhaps this is more on a species level, like Rob was kind of saying, because the more I see things on social media, the more I look into

things, the more I do see this kind of behavior and the way people kind of fall trapped to it. and the way people kind of fall trapped to it. One, I'll come right out of the gates and say it, the ball python industry. I mean, and if we're going to rope ball pythons, we might as well take our like probably most popular pet. So that goes for ball pythons, like Krusty geckos. I'm going to rope hognose in there too, because hognose are booming right now in terms of all that's coming out and the prices and stuff like that. So these breeders that were able to get in early, make a big investment, early 2000s, they were able to stack up these morphs, they're able to show a very grandiose picture of the collection they've built over the years, the type of animals

they're hitting, the type of money they're spending on new animals, the type of facilities they're building, and things like that. And then, you know, you have these fresh faces. And I would say a lot of this started with COVID when a lot of people had an influx of money. They were also bored at home. And a bunch of people with money that wanted to do something with it. And still we see it to this day, a bunch of people that will come in the game, spend thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars, all these racks and

build up this giant collection over six months to a year that have a bigger collection than I do. And I'd say I have about 40 snakes right now and they built up a ball python collection that's bigger than my whole collection of snakes combined in under a year. And the way these people will talk on social media and the way they present themselves is that they think, oh,

because I spent all this money in this short amount of time, I'm going to be like these big dogs, I'm going to be the next guy up. But with that also said, and now, you know, if you look on Facebook in any reptile Facebook group, what are you seeing almost every day is people selling out of their collections for pennies on the dollar of probably what they bought them for a couple years ago. What I'd say I've been able to do personally is like read between those lines of people trying to sell that dream to you. And a lot of people seem to be like, very literally breaking about money, which I think in this hobby is just silly. Um, because it like it shouldn't be about money, it should be about the animals, like if you like the animals, it should be about the animals. Um, but it's just

really unfortunate what I've seen over time. And with some of these keepers and I'm in these group chats and different things. And, you know, I can't help but notice this stuff all the time. And it's hard to call people out on it because I think they've become almost so delusional in their thinking about what what they're building. And they think they're going to rise to this top so fast when really it, you know, like I said, the initial of this conversation is they've been kind of sold a pipe dream. It's like you can't be the next Justin Kabelka in three years off of a fresh collection. It's just not going to happen. Yeah, it's always, it's definitely always tricky when the money's involved, you know, and I think a lot of it is, is overhyped. And like you said, you know, they build these collections or at least the, the big guys are showing their huge collections and all

the, you know, racks and all the stuff that they've accumulated. And, and I think people forget that, like you said, Rome wasn't built in the day and that they're, this takes a lot of time and effort and continual striving to, you know, most of them don't start out as professional breeders. You know what I mean? They've had a day job for 20 years and then eventually you're able to, uh, transition to like a full-time breeder. But you know, when you're looking at it with with, like you said, kind of those hoop dreams, and sometimes you can't, you can't warn somebody enough or whatever.

Like they're gonna do what they wanna do. Like they see it like, no way I'm gonna make this happen. And I think that's the best warning is like, if you're doing it for the money, there's a lot easier and better ways to make money than to breed reptiles. You know, can you like, can you make money off of reptiles? Of course. And can some people do it full time? Yeah. But you know, at the same time, it's like it is a lot of work and

it's and it takes a while to build a reputation to build, you know, a trusted clientele or whatever that trusts you to not kind of screw them over and just be making a buck off them. Are there people that come and go like the wind? Yeah, there are, you know, and it's usually the people who are in it for the money, usually the people who've loved reptiles their whole lives, you know, get in it for the right reasons and work with the species that they care about. And they're going to keep, whether they make them a dollar or not, are usually the ones that kind of have that staying

power because they don't get caught up in the, I've got to make a lot of money and I got to be a pro breeder and all these kinds of things. So I think, on the one hand, yeah, there is some kind of manipulation a little bit or kind of capitalizing on their excitement. I'm sure there's plenty of breeders out there that get those dollar signs in their eyes each time a new fresh face walks in the door and they're really excited about reptiles. And really there is a danger to that where we kind of eliminate those up and coming keepers and ruin their excitement by screwing them over that way. So I think it's bad for the industry as a whole, because you're, like you said, making it about

money, making it about making money off of new inexperienced and potentially somewhat naive new keepers. But it is kind of a business and that seems to be the key to being a good business person is screwing people over to make a buck. Like I don't know how to put that differently. I do not like business. I'm a terrible businessman. So you know, I always knew that I was going to keep my day job and just do this as a hobby because, you know, I don't want to have to make those choices to sell an animal because I need to feed my family. You know what I mean? But yeah, with all the science jobs going out the window, maybe I will have to be a professional breeder. We'll see what happens.

And you know, just going off of that, an example, I can very literally pull up that that happened a couple of weeks ago in a group chat. I'm in someone was asking about like, oh, like cool colubrids that they could get into. Or they were saying for their brother, because this guy is a is a ball python person. And he has spent a lot of money. He's like, Oh, my brother wants to get a couple cool colubrids that would be like good for the market also, but not that hard to take care of. And I immediately replied, I said, dude, if that's the goal, don't buy them. I said stop. I, you know, I stopped it in his tracks. And unfortunately, I don't think he quite got the message. But I was like, if that's what you want.

And it was actually rhino rat snakes. I was like, dude, if that's what you want them for, please stop. I'm like, that's not what rhino rat snakes are for. They're, you're not going to make a buck off of rhinos if you don't really enjoy them and really like, you know, like keeping them, you know? And it takes years to get

them up to size and hard to establish babies. It's like, it's not the easiest thing. Like we're not talking about corn snakes here, but, uh, you know, rhino rats have a nice price tag to them, a nice stable price tag to them. So apparently that's attractive to someone who wants to invest in rhino rat snakes. Yeah, I hate that term of investment in the reptile industry. It definitely smacks of pyramid scheme or whatever. Hey, if you get five of your buddies to invest in this project, pretty soon you'll be making a lot of money too. And I have there been $20,000, $50,000, $80,000 ball pythons sold.

Yeah. But how many of those are actual cash sales, you know, and how many are like, I will trade you 30 of my, you know, whatever more for that one snake, you know? And so like, I think, you know, a lot of these guys do build their collection through that trading power and having rare or desirable jeans or some combo or whatever. So I mean, there are, there are definitely people making a lot of money or have been making a lot of money on ball pythons, but you do notice that they also start to branch out and to try to get other things going too, because you know, that that's kind of a roller

coaster. It kind of comes and goes and you have to really be on the cutting edge. And there are very few people that can continually ride that wave. The Justeca Vilcas are kind of the exception to the rule. And they're on top of that pyramid, and it's hard to get on top of you know, even speaking for myself, I mean, I'll be completely honest, I did feed into the dream a little bit when I was building my collection. Starting in 2021, I was in Florida. So when I lived in Queens, New York City, you know, you legally can't have Python. So at the pet store I worked at, I had zero interaction with Pythons like ever. So it was just not something I was familiar with. It was always colubrids, colubrids.

I used to think they were dumb till I got my first one in 2021. And I still think they're pet rocks and they could be dumb sometimes. But, you know, I fed into it. I was like, Whoa, you could do all this cool stuff. And I was seeing on YouTube and I was seeing this stuff until I got a little, I kind of put my brain together and I was like, okay, you can't catch up to these guys and you're going to be playing in the rat race forever.

So over the last year, I've actually slimmed my ball python collection down significantly down to just one project that I very much enjoy. Like a double recessive project. And I'm good with that. I'm happy with that. I don't have to chase anybody. I get to work what I like with my limited animals with the genes I like. And I get to be done at that. And now I get to have a little bit bigger of a colubrid collection where, not to say I don't have fun with the ball pythons, but where I could have, I'd say more fun with, and the other things I enjoy. So I'd say I was in that spot was in that spot of I was I was

being sold the pipe dream just just overall not by any specific person, but just by the overall everything. And I kind of like I said, I opened my eyes. I saw the light. I was like, this is not the way to go. Yeah, this is and it's not for everybody. I mean, it's not for me for sure. Like I've I I, I, I mean, I got into the, the morph game and all that kind of stuff. I produced the first zebra jungles in the country and selling a, you know, $5,000 snake is not easy. You know, it takes a lot of effort. It's almost like if you just maintain the wild types, I've found that it, they're very consistent. They hold their prices for the most part. You're not having like, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, I've found that they're very consistent. They hold their prices for the most part. They have their fans and that's always going to happen. Somebody's going to come along a jungle carpet python and say, Ooh, I want one of those. It's just a

consistent thing. And if I'm not trying to produce 300, you know, three, 400 snakes at a time, then you know, it's, it's manageable and I make my sales and I can pay for the rodent chow or whatever, you know, and just keep the ball rolling and pay for a couple of trips to Australia here and there. Um, that's, you know, that's all I need, I think. Yeah. Um, so, and, and also it helps too, if I can contribute to the bills once in a while, that really justifies it, at least to my wife. So, you know, I do think you can, you know, have a profitable business or have something that...

100%. Yeah, does the right thing. But I think, you know, there definitely is that aspect of it. And to me, it seems like it kind of came along with the right thing. But I think, you know, there definitely is that aspect of it. And to me, it seems like it kind of came along with the morph thing. Like as soon as morphs entered it, it just kind of went nuts in regards to, oh, it's all about the money and all this money you can make. Where before it was like, people who just really liked a certain species or species group and wanted to work with them and produce some and then they, you know, find people like minded people who like those things too, just because they were what they were not because of some heritable gene they had, you know, some mutant then. I think that brought that kind of negative element a little bit more. Not that people weren't getting screwed over by certain people in the hobby. I mean, that's like a tried and true part of the reptile industry to get screwed over

by some big name. Oh yeah. Touting they have some rare reptile that you just really want to get your hands on. And then you find out, oh, they just absconded with all this money or whatever. So, you know, that's, I don't think that's going away anytime soon because we get so excited about rarity and about difficult to acquire things that we're willing to risk that money and just watch it, watch it go away. So, well, and even absent that fraud, right?

Sort of any sale, particularly in the context of things being marketed in pairs or trio, it's always kind of forward sold that way. To me, the part that is always understated in that, or understated is the time and stability that that would be required to effectuate that. Right? In the sense of, oh, and only 3 or 4 years. Well, Joe, how many times have you moved in 3 or 4 years, especially a lot of the people that are kind of most amenable to the pitch, maybe are young folks. I know that's maybe part of me saying 25 or 30 years ago, but that's your least stable time of life. Whereas the people who have these huge impressive collections, well, they've been, I know Justin, it calls to mind, right? Who's been in his same house for how many? 15, 20 years or something like that. And it's like, that's a level of stability that most of the people that are buying animals from him don't have.

That's just the truth of the matter. And I would say the other thing just here, here on both sides, how this is going is that, reptiles are unlike most commodities in the sense that their theoretical potential to produce value is crazy high. But if you're situated that you need to move them today, either based on your own sort of desire or your circumstance or whatever it is, they could be literally worthless or

the cost of literal meat. They could be a dollar a pound or they have the potential with if you didn't have to do that, you could effectuate it. They could be worth produce $5,000 this year. But if you had to sell them today, they're $5, that sort of thing. Most things aren't like that. Even amongst like, I was thinking as I was putting that thought together, it was like, well, how different is this than collecting coins or stamps or something like that? And the answer is, well, you don't expect your coins or stamps to make more coins or stamps. So they might have an intrinsic value or an extrinsic value to that community.

But it's not a further question. Oh, they'll produce more coins. And they're becoming more and more rare as the time goes by rather than more common, which happens in the red valley. Exactly. Yeah. And the guy sitting on top is the one making all the money and the people underneath have to try to keep up. Not that you can't do it that way, you know, and you can still make it work, but just more

difficult. And what I actually find quite fascinating about the business of this hobby and this industry, you know, going separate from what I'm talking about is I feel like the guys who stay in their lane and kind of do their own things and they're zoned in and not worried about what the hell everyone else is doing actually do so well compared to most other people. Because I and I won't even I won't name names, but I see other fellow colubrid breeders who just sell, sell, sell because they produce high quality, the best animals all the time. And they always have them available and people want them. But they're not chasing some market. They're not trying to copy someone else. They are doing their own thing. And even myself, I've learned that. I'll call them higher end Texas rat snakes over the last couple of years at prices you don't see

any other Texas rats on morph market posted at. And I sat on them for a bit, but they sold because it wasn't me trying to chase something special. It was me producing what I wanted to produce. And I found the right buyers for them and they sold. And with that, to go against my argument, but I wasn't trying to sell people a dream either. I stated what the animals were, this is what it was and if people want them, it is what it is. Yeah.

I think there's some really good examples of that out there too, where they're kind of champions for different species or different animals and their excitement and their, I guess, productivity, putting out information on that species, making it seem like it's something that you might be able to do, making it kind of a reality or helping you understand what they need to thrive and do well for you. Those are the ones that seem to have staying power and kind of create their own market and do very well in this hobby. And they're also the types that aren't trying to fool people into giving them their money to make a quick buck. They want the animals to go to a good home and things like that. So I think that's the key to being a

good breeder, I think, is being able to first keep the animals happy and healthy and well, but also make sure that the people you're sending them to also have a good chance of succeeding with those animals. Yeah. You know? And the thing about, you know, I guess my side of the argument, what are, like, where does this take place? It's the animals that are the most common,

the easiest to breed with the most morphs possible, which makes them the most marketable animals out there because of all those qualities. So that's where it's so interesting how the hobby almost divides itself on this like Uber business end of things. And then you have like the semi-business, but like more so hobby oriented side of the coin, if you get what I mean. Right. And I mean, you talk to everybody at a reptile show and probably 90% of them are

going to say, I have a ball python or a crested gecko or a leopard gecko, you know, like the big five or 10 or whatever it is, a boa constriction, you know, they're just all kind of the same answers. You very rarely hear somebody, Oh, my first snake was, you know, a pygmy python. Yeah. Yeah. Even something like a carpet python that seems kind of commonplace to me, you know, like a jungle carpet or something. You don't hear that very often. It's always the same kind of mainstays and, and, uh, maybe that's changing a little bit. And, and I hope that people

branch out from those basic things, but it seems like, Oh, I got this ball Python from my buddy. And so I might as well find something to pair it up with and produce some because then I can make some money off this pair I've got you know that's that kind of that um following the money thing like oh if I if I breed them then I can sell them and and have enough money to feed them and you know it kind of like you said it kind of gets into that pipe dream but I think that's more on the keeper side where they see that, oh, people are breeding these and selling these and they just assume it's as easy as throwing them together and producing babies and then they're just going to fly out the door. What?

So, so maybe it's more of a sometimes it is sometimes it is as easy as throwing them in the tub and producing them. The problem is when they can't sell them. Yeah, exactly. It was that last part of that last step. They're not going to fly out the door. Sometimes they do. Like, I mean, my first breeding project was kind of an accident. I was in a pet shop and I saw this bearded dragon scratching at the glass and she looked

very fat. And I said, I'll take that one. And I took her home and she laid a clutch of eggs. And I took the bait. I raised the babies up for a few weeks. I took them back to the pet store. They bought the babies from me for 50 bucks a piece. Like this is a while ago, of course, you can't do that anymore. But and I'm like, Whoa, yeah, that was easy. And then that kind of tricked me into like, now I need to buy up all the bearded dragons in the area. And then I kind of stopped thinking, or I neglected to think about things like biosecurity

and you know, am I just going to throw in a bunch of random bearded dragons from a bunch of different pet stores? And then all of a sudden, you know, they're not thriving, they're getting different enteric pathogens and things like that. And, and they kind of just slowly faded and didn't do great. So, you know, I learned my lesson the hard way. And and but I also had kind of that easy start as well. But then, you know, the next project I

bought, I made sure to get healthy captive bred animals, not just some random pet store animal. And so I do think that you know, that naivety and that excitement of the keeper can also contribute to this where that nobody's going to tell them, you know, this might not be for you, or you may not want to necessarily produce 100 of these or something, you know, that kind of thing where they're just like, well, everybody else breeds them. So they must be popular. So I'm going to breed them. And then they find out, oh, you have to have a name to sell these things or else you're selling them for 20 bucks. You know, I'll bring Crested geckos to a show and I'll put them on my table for 20 bucks and they don't sell

and people are walking by with Crested geckos that they paid $350 for because it came from a well-known breeder and it has some little bit of orange on the tail or something. You're like, okay, great. This thing could be bright red and nice looking, but yeah, go ahead and spend 350 because I'm not going to tell you differently. Well, not only the name, right? That is a huge part of it, but the time and enthusiasm to engage and make those sales and even heck, go to FedEx and ship them. All those steps, maintain the shipping supplies and make those sales and even heck, go to FedEx and ship them. All those steps, maintain the shipping supplies and all those, sort of that infrastructure to facilitate that, that you definitely don't even think about. Right. Yeah. And mine are just like office pets that won't stop producing or something, it's, it's an interesting thing.

And, you know, frankly, like crested geckos are pretty amazing pets and they're pretty cool animals and I'm glad that people appreciate them and they get excited about them. I just, I guess it's, it's been so long. I can't remember what it's like to, to get into something or some group of animals, you know, it's, I've just been doing the same thing for so long, you know, but I still know what it's like to find a cool new species or animal or something and get those in. And I still have those opportunities

every once in a while. I've got something coming soon. I'm really excited. But yeah, no, and I could totally appreciate that that point of view from you because yes, you're established. You've been doing this for a long time and you've been keeping relatively most of the same stuff. It's where I where I see this is, you know, it's a lot of these new keepers and I happen to be in these circles and I'm on social media a lot. So I see a lot of just stuff out there. So I don't know. No, I mean, yeah, it's totally valid.

You know, what other warnings or whatever, what other things have you seen where breeders are acting unscrupulous? Any other kind of things that you would want to warn new keepers about I guess? Hmm. Well, I think one thing to naturally bring up, sorry, Jeff, and maybe it naturally fits into this conversation of like the sort of sales pitch or someone who's gone through a transition around a sales pitch and maybe I I'm touching the, again, about to touch the third rail. We'll see. But is, you know, someone who used to be kind of pitching that message maybe 25, 30 years ago, about 35,

30 years ago about like an investment in the animal and these sorts of things now is resorted to juggling them. Yeah, right. It's just like a sort of, it's gone pure Vondell or, you know, PT Barnum or something, gone from being like, Hey, this, you know, sort of, uh, presenting the super sciencey sort of setup and like, Oh, you, you know, with this one rack, you look at what you can do and all those sorts of things. And now we're here 25, 30 years down the track and it's literally juggling. Yeah. Kind of maybe glad that I wasn't at that show. That was a local show to me and I was almost going to go vend that, but I thought maybe not. And then I didn't have much to sell anyway, but yeah, he, that was sketchy. I don't know.

Right. It's the, it's the antithesis of actually what we're talking about, right? That's the anti-sales pitch, right? That's saying like, I don't care about this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All this is, is a dollar sign to me. Yeah.

Sorry, Joe, what did you have to say before? No, I don't even know where I was going to go. I was going to let Rob make that point. Yeah, no, no, it's okay. Oh, yes. I was going to go back to your question of like, what else do I see? I think, I think people is again, I'm very much speaking from the ball python side of things because that's what I see a lot of, but I think people get hung up on the dollar amount that they'll see priced on a certain morph or certain combo a lot and take that and run with it. I think it's all, there's a lot of fake and BS with a lot of that because I know for a fact that people post up these high prices and then there's a lot of... You were saying it

before, whether it's under the table dealings where it doesn't actually get sold at that price, or there was a trade involved of some sort, trade plus cash or something like that. that price or there was like a trade involved of some sort trade plus cash or something like that. So I think that also doesn't really help things in terms of hyping things up. And I'm sorry, I don't mean to talk crap on a show, but like the sunset morph with ball pythons, I think it's garbage. I think it doesn't look good. But they hold this high dollar value, which some people like it. And I can't tell you that you can't like it, but it browns out.

Like, it's not good looking. So I can't understand why that price on that animal is justified in any sense. And normal sunsets anymore aren't that high price, but like combos with it are being priced. You know, a sunset clown is just a simple double recessive. You know, the lowest price one on morph market right now is $10,000, which is just crazy for how that animal ages into adulthood. Right. I think I think too.

People see that $10,000 price tag and say, Oh, well, the the ingredients are only this much. You know, if I get a sunset and a clown, I can make sunset clowns and then I'll make it $10,000. What they don't understand is the person who made that sunset clown has potentially an army of sunset clown makers in, at their disposal that could go, you know, later that year or early the next year or whatever, and produce 20 of them. And all of a sudden, instead of 10,000000 they're a thousand or a hundred or whatever and and if you went

Okay, well I spent a thousand on the the ingredients and now you know What am I and and I haven't even bred yet and all of a sudden the price is down I think those of us who have been around along long enough you see those high priced animals and you know They're already set to do their thing, you see those high priced animals and you know, they're already set to do their thing, you know, granted, people can produce ball pythons fairly early with a young male or something, but they still have to have that, you know, those females that are older and ready to lay eggs and things like that. But yeah, it's just a race to the bottom, it seems, because they just, the more that are produced, the lower they go. And then pretty soon, like you've, I remember the banana was probably

the best example. They were 80 or 120,000 or something. And they dropped in one season from, you know, 80,000 one weekend. Right. Yeah. Barley has told me it was, it was a Daytona weekend and the price jumped off a cliff just in that one weekend. Because what people didn't know is that lots of people had bought, you know, or gotten a couple of them or so. A few people shelled out the money first and got in line or whatever. I got them early and produced them quickly. And then they produced an army of them. And then all of a sudden, they probably made, well, I heard some people made millions of dollars in a show or something crazy like

that, or several hundred thousand dollars in a single show, because all they brought were 20 banana ball by thousands, sold them them at ridiculous prices or more or 40 or some, you know, some crazy number. But, you know, you got to know that that's kind of going on already. You've already missed the boat if the animal has been produced and has a, you know, $20,000 price tag, because the person who produced it is probably going to produce a lot more the next season, especially if they're extremely popular and, you know, they've done their math right and planned correctly. I don't know.

Although Justin, I would say that the fact that they had 20 of them sitting on the table is evidence that it's already too late. That's the other part of it, is everything comes down. There's some static sales point for everything. And I do think the more thing maybe is the distortion on this because normal Western yeah, playing normal western hog nose were $50 you know, that was sort of the consistent price and then the which is not to discount the stuff Richard Evans was doing but before sort of the front end of the Mutations with the albinos and things that was just sort of what they are And so like even at some point and maybe that's today maybe with the interest in hog nose

It's not there yet like a normal western hog nose will again come to be 50 plus inflation from you know to 1997 or whatever it'll be. Yeah I want to say even a normal hog they're like I think they're closer to like even a hundred like 50 to 100 bucks somewhere somewhere there. Yeah exactly right because that's the unstated part. Whenever anyone's like, Oh, I used to buy these for $25 back in 1977. And it's like, sure. Well, $25 in 1977 is now worth 140. So yeah, whatever it is. Right. Yeah. That's definitely something that needs to be taken into account is yeah. Like, and I think a lot of people have that in their mind like oh this animal is this much money. I've been pretty shocked to see a lot of import animals

that used to be commonplace now command I mean like a Bowens python you know they've always been kind of pricey but 10,000, 12,000, 15,000 dollars for an imported animal just seems insane you know what I mean like there's just such a chance. Something that doesn't fit into the box. Yeah. Characteristically doing well. Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, I guess people want them bad enough. And I think that's another kind of inflated where you've got some influencer that had one and everybody fell in love with them and they're so mysterious and cool. And yeah, granted there is some truth to that, but at that price is just so risky because very few people have

12 or $20,000 that they can just throw down the toilet, you know, if they buy an import and it dies, you know, it just, it just is shocking to see that. And then that also kind of prices people out that might do really well with them or that have, you know, an act to breed pythons or something. You know, I've heard that a few times of some very capable Python breeders like, well, yeah, I could probably breed those, but, you know, I'm not paying 20 grand for a pair of them. Well, and to do it seriously and have a chance,

right? A pair is not a project. Not ideal. That's the thing where it's like, OK, realistically, you probably need multiple males and probably multiple sets of males with a female or whatever. So yeah, you don't need a pair at 20 grand. You need like 12, 12 and a half. Six or eight of them, 12 of them. 100 grand or whatever.

And even then, it's all speculative. And very few people are situated to just, yeah, as you say, put that on the shelf. And then, oh, if I need to sell them tomorrow, I can get, you know, this guy said he'd give me five grand for that, you know, what I spent 100 grand for six weeks ago. Yeah. Yeah.

You see those people come and go sometimes that just come in, drop insane amounts of money. And then, yeah, like they're selling later for pennies on the dollar, because it's not an easy thing. It's work and it's hard. And you have animal, I mean, animals will die for, for no clear reason to you, you know, you just like, or something, you know, the season shift and your room overheats and you lose some animals that way, which I mean, that happened to me a couple of weeks ago and not a great thing. And you'd think I'd have it figured out by now. And like, it's just these weird, you know, how do you control the weather? And you really need to

think about those things. And that can, you know, set you back a little bit. So, um, you know, it's just, uh, it So, it's just a tricky thing. And anybody that's trying to sell you on like, all you have to do is throw these two animals together and you're a millionaire, like that's buyer beware for sure. But if somebody's legitimately excited about a certain project or animals or something like that, that's fine too.

Like I would hope that somebody breeding animals is excited about the animals. Now, if they're willing to just sell them to whoever comes along with the dollars in hand, that's a little something to watch out for too. You want to make sure that they're making sure the animals go to as good a home as possible. But you know, I, why, why deprive somebody of being able to hold an animal just because you don't think they're ready or capable or whatever, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. And also for, for newer keepers, and I'm not sure how many newer keepers listen to the show, but like there are certain like almost buzzwords that you can get off of what a seller is telling you to kind of kind of see what they're trying

to do if they're just trying to sell you that animal, or if they're going to help you out a little bit. Because I've had people do it to me and choir on like a ball python or whatever and say, Well, I want to pair it with this. And I've been like, hey, that might not be your best idea. I would actually look for that. And I actually dissuaded them from buying my animal because they told me they wanted to do this. I was like, that probably wouldn't be your best bet. And that's what you have to look for. If someone says, oh, yeah, you could do this, this and that, and it's not that realistic. And maybe it is depending on the animal,

but I'm just kind of giving an example there of, sometimes you can get a feel based on the answers to your questions if you're acquiring. Yeah. Yep. And yeah, I think that's a good sign. If somebody's saying, Hey, maybe this animal is not right for you. Or maybe I, I checked this guy out. He's got what you're probably looking for. You know,

those are good signs of good breeders that have scruples and morals and all that kind of stuff, you know, um, rather than trying to pitch you on what they have only, you know, you see that a lot. Yeah. Yeah. That's something definitely to be aware of. Good point. Um, I, I have only, you know, you see that a lot. But yeah, that's something definitely to be aware of. Good point. I think too, you know, we, again, are you, are you prepared to feed the offspring of your animals for, you know, years in some instances, and be able to provide space for them if they don't sell immediately. Or are you going to panic and try to just sell them for whatever you can get? And, you know, kind of,

I guess, I guess you're giving somebody a good deal, but you know, you're not really doing yourself any favors if you're going to spend a lot of money on animals. You've got to have, you know, a plan. You've got to be able to provide for those animals, provide them space, food, all the things that they need, care, time, that kind of thing. Or else, what are you doing? Don't do it. If you want a pet, get a single animal and have a pet. If you want a breeding project, you've got to be prepared for what comes out of a breeding project if you're successful. You see so many people scrambling for racks or cages or something because they don't have anywhere to put the offspring, you know? And, uh, I mean, some of our good friends still do that.

Oh, and McIntyre. Oh, sorry. I coughed a little there. The, um, you know, what I see a lot from like newer keepers, like the amassing a giant collection is a Like a thing I just can't fathom But on so many levels between the caging that's one like you said then your feeding costs Um, I don't think people realize like how much

Exponentially your feeding bill goes up I don't think people realize how much exponentially your feeding bill goes up, the more animals you add, and then especially once you start having babies, because it just takes it to a whole new level. Not that I've ever struggled for it, but then you start to realize when you have babies, you're like, oh, I'm feeding this many rodents per week to this many animals, and you're kind of just like,

oh, okay, I'm spending a little more money now. So it's definitely, it's a consideration to make when you get into this is like, can I afford this? And then of course there's the time, do you have the time to take care of your animals properly? Even with my 40 snakes, not that it's like a, it's a big job, I'm not spending hours a day cleaning or whatever, but like, you know, when I got to get in there and clean, like it could take a while.

What I'm doing full tub clean outs, like it takes me, it takes me a while cause I'm cleaning, disinfecting everything and all that stuff. So you know, yeah, yeah. I mean the time and the effort that it takes, and especially if you're, yeah, like you said, growing a bigger and bigger collection. And that happens pretty imperceptibly, because you know, it's easy to have a lot of interest. There's so many cool reptiles out there

and there's, you know, a lot of fun to be had. Like I, you know, I have to control myself better and that kind of thing. And sometimes, you know, you hold back on breeding up a lot of animals because you don't want a huge year. You know, you kind of take, take it easy and yeah, probably best practices or if you've produced a group of animals and they haven't sold within that year, probably don't pair up the adults again. Like maybe wait until you sell the offspring of that, that, uh, and

make sure you have that market before you start breeding them again and producing more of those animals. Yeah. And I just want to say again, like I'm, I'm not trying to be negative. I just, I bring these points up as things to think about. I love these reptiles. I'd get an even bigger collection if I could. Would it be responsible of me? Probably not. So I just say these things almost as a warning to any prospective buyers is like, hey, you should think about these things before you do it. If you have the capacity to, no problem at all. Right. Yeah. I agree 100% with that. I mean, that's, that's, uh, that's what we

try to do here is provide both sides and try to, you know, make sure people are informed. Like that's on both sides of the coin because, you know, like you said, like, well, like I brought up, it's not always necessarily an unscrupulous breeder. It can be also be just overwhelming excitement from the person getting them and they're just not pacing themselves because, oh, I just got my own place and I have all this room. I have an extra room. I can buy all these things and make all this money. And I think we all maybe went through that a little bit when we started and looking back and going, well, I probably shouldn't have done this and that.

I think I kind of grew it slowly. You know, I wasn't going into debt necessarily. I guess I did maybe for a couple projects, but you know, like at first it was kind of like, okay, let me get this species. If I can breed them and sell them, then I'll use the money to get my next project and things like that. It can snowball, especially if you go to a reptile show and you see all these crazy, cool animals that you've never seen before, you know, you just heard about and you're like, Oh, I could probably keep those, you know, like, and you know, it can work, but it can also be kind of a treadmill where you're like, just get in over your head and it's hard to, yeah.

Yeah. The debt thing is another huge one. Like you're talking about, I mean, some of these people are leveraging so much to get these animals. And I'm just like, and I'm like a, like a semi-personal finance addict in terms of YouTube content, my own self. And I'm just like, how can you do this to yourself?

I'm like, it's so irresponsible. It's like, if you have, like, you should spend the money if you have the money, especially on animals, on something that is not a necessity. Like these things, like these are not necessities. I don't think people should be taking out that much irresponsibility on their own personal life, just to have it. it right the animal will come back around it's like you're not gonna lose it forever right for the most part it was legitimate that people were mortgaging they're putting second mortgages on their house to buy ball pythons yeah I know when we were hopefully Ben's OK with me saying

this, but when we were getting into some of the projects, Ben used some of his student loan money or maybe it was a grant or something like he was getting some money for school, but he used it on on some carpet python morphs. And we we ended up producing

and kind of making that money back for him and everything to be able to spend on school. And he got out of school okay and everything. But so it didn't turn out to too sketchy or anything. But yeah, so I guess I've been guilty of that as well. And when the monitors, like when Ackies were first, lots of money and I thought, oh, I could probably, I really want to keep those and I could probably breed them and you know, all that kind of

stuff. And I borrowed some money from my parents and bought, you know, bought a trio of ackeys and I got some eggs out of them, but then we moved and the eggs crashed and didn't hatch and I never got any hatchlings out of them. And so then I had, you know, some, and then after I bought them, like two weeks later, the price halved for these animals. And so then I had, you know, some, and then after I bought them, like two weeks later, the price halved for these animals. And I'm like, Oh crap, that's not good. You know, like, yeah, it just, it was just kind of a train wreck thing. And I lost, you know, money on that project for sure. But yeah, that's, those hoop dreams are definitely real and it may not have anything to do with the breeder.

It might just be myself thinking, oh, I could do that. I'm a good keeper. And monitors are a lot of work. They're a lot of effort and it's not easy to produce a lot of monitors too. You got to... That's the time, stability and infrastructure. Exactly. It seems easy.

And even on maybe, you know, going back to your original bearded dragon, right, on the scale of one or a pair of animals or even that's a gravid female, right, that's one thing. But as you try and scale up the need for, you know, time, stability and infrastructure just expands exponentially. It's not even linearly, right, relative to that. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And I think if, you know, if you're, if you're a part-time breeder, snakes are great. Lizards are a lot more difficult because, you know, you got to feed them more frequently and you got to give them lights and UV and, you know, all sorts of things that might raise

the cost. Exactly. Yeah. You're, you're paying a lot more to heat them and stuff like that. So yeah, there's definitely things to consider when, when getting into these projects are monitors. Cool. Of course they are. You know, there's very few animals that are cooler than a monitor lizard. And, and, uh, I dunno, I, I did it again. I bought another group of ackeys and got more eggs out of them that crashed and I didn't hatch and ended up selling them off again.

It's like, I don't know who you'd think I'd learn, but I think next time I get any kind of monitor, it's going to be after retirement so I can give them the attention and the time they need. I mean, I enjoy keeping them. You're going out herping and traveling. Right. Yeah. I still have that issue.

Yeah, that's a good point. Maybe some things are just, yeah. Not with the thought of, okay, this is going to, I'm going to pay it off with this. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. You have to be able to afford the animals with maybe some reptile money from some stuff you've sold or whatever. And then, then it's kind of almost like play money because you're bringing money into your reptile account and then it goes out to buy more reptiles. You're not taking away from your family's finances to, to buy some of these projects. That's probably never a really great idea because if it doesn't work, you know, what's the consequence? If it does work, you might have a little extra money here or there to throw back into the pot. But if it doesn't work, yeah, that's, that could mean

your kids are going hungry or you're going into debt more because of this, you know, like it can have some bad consequences. So do it the smart way. Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny too, like when people buy projects, again, kind of that excited naivety, like they'll get a group of animals and then they realize maybe even pretty quickly like, Oh, this isn't really for me. Like, I don't even really like keeping these. The influencer on Instagram made them look so cool. And I got them and they're just kind of brown and ugly and they bite and they crap on me and you know like why do I have these and I got to get rid of them as quickly as I can and so that can... But I can give respect to people who start very small and then they realize that and they're like okay that's not for me. You get a couple animals and you could do

that and make that educated decision kudos kudos to you like that you were mature enough to like understand that and make that decision. It's when you buy 60 animals and then in two months and now you're trying to flip them all back to the market. Then it's like, okay, there was a bit of irresponsibility there. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's that's another another thing to to be aware of, I guess. Make sure you like them before you dive into them too deep.

Yeah. Yeah. Now, here's like a question I have, like, what what can we as breeders? Do or do better to because I'd say there's like a 50 50 of where people are getting out of the industry these days. It's either or maybe not getting out. I'm sorry. Like of what what happens where it's like me where like I stumbled. I spent a lot of money on ball pythons. I stumbled, but I found lot of money on ball pythons. I stumbled but I found my way and I saw the light and then I continued on. I restructured the collection a little bit and I did it smartly or

people that just get out and sell off entirely. Cuz I feel like maybe that's not even a 50 50. I'd say there's a little more of the just the whole get out rather than the quick trip and finding your way. It's like, what can we do to keep the retention better? I don't know. Because I'll say this all the time, if you're going to sell out that quickly, you should have never been in really the first place. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's a hard, hard problem to solve. I guess it's just, you know, listening

to our show, getting all these, you know, getting all these ideas and making sure you're thinking things through. And, you know, I, I would say even like, if you think there's a project for you and it's going to be cool, get a loan animal, keep it for a while, see if you enjoy it, if it keeps your attention, if you find yourself being like, oh, this is a hassle, this is a pain. Yeah, don't buy a bunch more because it's not going to get easier with babies, you know, hatching and things like that. So I think there's just simple things people can do to make sure they're going to enjoy it and continue on. For me, I'll always probably have some kind of reptilian pet and probably a few breeding

projects as well. Sometimes I feel a little responsible for some things. Like I feel like, you know, the reason a lot of them are in the country is because I bred them and, you know, I wanna make sure that continues on because sometimes you see breeders leave the hobby or pass away and the projects disappear

and they produce thousands of them. And you're thinking, where are all these animals that were produced? And people just went, oh, they've they're doing that. I don't want to do the same thing they're doing, because then I'll have to compete or I'll have to, you know, it's like, well, I mean, there is there is something about having, you know, those backup projects or people that have the animals that you have.

And so, you know, that was kind of one of the big things I wanted to do is make sure that there were other people breeding them. So it wasn't just me and, you know, we could have those animals in the hobby for a very long time, but sometimes that's easier said than done, especially when people get, you know, have that attitude of trade secrets, like they're not going to help people understand how to breed them because then they become their competition. And that's another aspect I guess we haven't really hit on is that there's almost that competitive withholding or something, because you don't want the people who are buying your animals to be your competition, which is exactly what happens when you sell a project or a breeding pair to somebody is they're

selling the same things you are to some extent. But there's room, there's a lot of people in the country and the interest in reptiles is growing. So I don't think we need this fighting competitive nature. I think we can get along and help each other and move things forward. And especially for things that aren't commonly kept, you know, like we want more of these more rare things and people get more exposure to them. And then they see, oh, this is a doable thing.

And maybe they get interested in something besides the big five or 10 species out there. Yeah. Yeah. Well, any other things that we haven't covered yet? I don't know. Well, I also just wanted to add, another reason I just feel passionately about this topic is because of my humble beginnings into the reptile hobby and how it's just grown into a real passion for me over the years. Like, you know, I started just as a little kid with one snake at which became two snakes. And then it was, it was hard to convince my parents to let me even get more. And then I kind of snuck more into the house. And now I I now I have what I have today.

So you know I just love these animals so much that I hate to see you know people not appreciate them the same way I do. And that they're just kind of tossed around like a commodity to an extent and sometimes kept irresponsibly And things like that, you know, so well, you know what? You know what the cure for that is? Get out and herp go see him in the wild, you know It just gives you an appreciation for what that animal actually is. It's not just showing up in the deli cup You know It's out in the wild doing its thing you know, it's out in the wild doing

its thing. And, and if you see them in the wild, it just brings that appreciation up. Like I come home and I go, I've got to do better. Like what I'm doing is not sufficient for this species. Like I've seen them in the wild. Like I know what they have access to and how can I make their life better? How can I make it more like I saw in the wild? And I think that's a healthy thing. I think that makes you realize, or it reignites that passion that you had when you were a kid and you were discovering new things in the, whatever, encyclopedia or reptile book. You saw your first dinosaur book was where I saw my first reptiles in the back, you know that and just got me so excited. And then, you know, yeah,

I made a ton of mistakes and I, you know, animals have died in my care because I didn't know what I was doing very well. And, you know, mistakes still happen. I still lose animals from time to time. And, uh, you know, mistakes still happen. I still lose animals from time to time. And, uh, but, but my passion and my excitement and my care for the animals is, is growing, you know, it's, it's developing and it's becoming better. And I hope that's, you know, if you find yourself kind of stuck in a rut, go out and see them in the wild, you know, instead of buying that next pair of animals, use that to buy a plane ticket somewhere cool and, and go see the animals and doing what they do in the wild. And you'll reignite that passion.

You'll get more excited about the things you're keeping. Yeah. That's true. Even of those big five to big 10, you know, where it fits, right? In terms of on the, you know, not the most recent for me Australia trip, but the one before when we were on Eastern Queensland, that that Barbada, not to say Barbada are common, right? But you know, the close relative of Vitticeps, the bearded dragon, right? The number one, number one, number two pet lizard or whatever. And that was the coolest animal we saw on the whole trip. Just that thing was insane.

You know, it's one of those. And I know you've seen Vitticeps, right? In the wild. Yeah, that it's just like, they're amazing. Right? Magic of those, and I know you've seen Vitoceps, right? In the wild. Yeah. Yeah. That it's just like, they're amazing. Right? The magic of those animals that's actually lost because they are the number one and number two most common pet lizard. And now they're associated with on a leash wearing dragon wings

and this sort of stuff and whatever. Sitting on a hammock. Those things are amazing. What they do, what they put up with, their design, their design relative to their conditions and things. They're truly amazing. And that gets lost when we're looking at buckets of 20 of them, and they're in all these crazy colors. Yeah. And I think it kind of goes the same way. I mean, you might talk to an Australian herper that's like, oh, it's just a bearded dragon, you know, drive past it. But like, I think if you can, you know, appreciate even the common stuff that you

see all the time and just like watch them see what they do. Like I remember, you know, there's garter snakes all over around here, but I found this huge garter snake female and I sat and watched her and take, you know, was taking some pictures of her and she did this weird tongue flick thing that I've never seen before. And it was like, she was moving her tongue, like almost in a spiral and doing this weird, you know, it was really cool. And I'm like, you know, if I would have just went, Oh, that's a garter snake. I'm not going to mess with it. I wouldn't have seen that behavior. I wouldn't have been excited and had that passion reignited a little bit. So I think, you know, even then, like we went on that trip to South Australia and

we saw around 40 shingle back skinks. It was like they were everywhere. It was incredible, you know, and, and I never got sick of seeing the shingle back skink. Like everyone was like, Holy crap, it's a shingle back, like pull over, you know, let's go, let's go, you know, get it off the road or go take a picture of it or whatever. It's, it was always exciting because they're such cool animals, you know? And, um, I don't know. I think when you get to the point where you're, oh, it's just another shingle back. Like, no, you know, let's, let's, let's go back and figure out why we're doing what we're doing exactly.

Yeah, exactly. So I don't know. I think that's a good way to, I know that's just reignited my passion to the nth degree is to get out and see them in the wild. And I just love it. It's become, you know, almost second nature to just have a couple of herb trips planned. And yeah, yeah, it's very cool. All right. Well, this is a definitely a great topic and I think it's important to consider, you know, let's make sure we don't fall into those traps on either side. Like let's be, let's have morals. Let's treat people coming up in the hobby with the respect that they

deserve and help them, you know, be mentors to them so they don't make the same mistakes we did or, you know, that kind of thing. I think if we're in this for the long run, we should want to continue to grow the hobby, not have people that are going to spend a ton of money and dump out in a year. It like, you know, because having that new person in the hobby is going to spark five more new people. Like, it's just a, you know, it's a trickle down effect. So the more, the more people we get and that stay, the better it is for the hobby as

a whole. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Why? I mean, it's always fun. That's the funnest part of going to reptile shows for me anymore is to see, see my friends in the reptile hobby, you know, like to hear about their latest herb trip or what they're breeding or whatever. It's just cool. Even if I have no interest in keeping that species or, you know, targeting that species in the wild, still cool to hear. Oh, I wanted to mention too, I was listening, Frank Colachico was on a couple of podcasts lately and reminded me of a point he made at the GECO symposium back at Tinley a few years back. He said, okay, how many people in the audience keep Rackadactylus, the Leachianus or what's

the crested geckos? They're not Rackadactylus anymore. They're Cortelophus. Yeah. He's like, how many people keep them? And most of the people in the audience, of course, had had some form of, and they raised their hand and he said, how many people have ever seen one in the wild? And like maybe two hands stayed up, you know, out of 150 or whatever. So, you know, I think that's a great point. Like, yeah, it just, it

just brings that to the next level when you can experience the animals you keep at your home in the wild. It just makes them all the more special and it just, yeah, it gets you more excited about doing well and keeping them happily and keeping them healthy. You saw them and thriving in the wild, you know, it's just cool. Yeah, definitely. All right. Well where can people find you? Yeah, you could find me on most social media platforms.

It's Meteoric Serpents pretty much everywhere. YouTube, you could search it on there as well, or Colubrid Corruption. You can search that wherever you listen to podcasts as well. But yeah, that's where you can find me. Nice. Yeah, I'll definitely be doing that and listening to your podcast. Check it out. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Well, we appreciate you coming on. We kind of like to end if you've seen any cool things in herpetoculture or herpetology and the last little bit, if you have anything that you're really excited about that you've seen lately. For me, I've gotten kind of on

an Oedura kick after seeing so many cool species in central Australia. I was listening to a podcast where an Oedura keeper was producing some cool species and stuff. It got me really excited about Oedura. And then looking into all the expansion of the species, there's a lot of them out there, and they're pretty neat lizards. So I just posted today some, well, what is when. I posted some marine velvet geckos, the Oedura lorica

that we saw around Kings Canyon. Spectacular. I mean, they're freaking purple and yellow, like just really cool and good size too. Like they were an impressive size and just amazing colors that you just wouldn't expect to see on, you know, out on the rock in the, you know, in the middle of the desert. So very cool animals. So I'm on an Oedura kick lately, trying to learn all I can about those now. Nice. How about you guys?

Anything cool? Any cool podcasts you've listened to lately or guess you've had on your podcast that have gotten you excited? Hmm. I've had a lot of cool guests. I'll be honest. I mean, you know, I'll throw the plug out there since we're on the NPR network, Colubrid Fest in September. If you're a Colubrid nerd or nut or whatever, if you enjoy colubrids, you should definitely be

there. I will be there. I will have a table, even though I'll probably have very little production. I'll be there one way or another. So you will see me there. I hope to see a ton of people there because it's going to be even bigger and better than it was last year. So that's cool. Where are they having that? better than it was last year. So that's cool. Where are they having that? It's over in, oh man, it's Fort Wayne, Indiana. Okay. Yeah. It was in Indianapolis last year, but they they've changed venues. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm, uh, I'm going to head down to the reptile talks, uh, you know, barring any, any, uh, unfortunate situation, but yeah, but yeah, I'll be down in California for those. I'm excited to go see those. So I figured it's a good, good thing to support. It's middle

of May, I think the 16th, 15, 16, somewhere around there that weekend in the middle of May and in the Anaheim area. yeah hit disneyland if you're so inclined and go listen to some reptile talks but i'd encourage uh the listeners to head out there and if if you're on my way from northern utah and you want to go along we can split some gas money Tony, let me know. All right. Got anything else Rob? Yeah, one thing that's cool that you'll appreciate, I think, because it'll take you back to your own sort of trip narrative days, is if you go to pingleton.com, Mike's old website from the mid-90s, I think it was most recently updated going on 10 years ago, but he has actually a whole bunch of trips that are written up more briefly than what you used to do, but kind of trip narrative

stuff when there's dozens of them on there. Just really cool. Really cool to look through and check them out. So I'd recommend that. Nice. I ran across one as well. It was a more recent one too, like an Australian keeper. I don't remember it. So I don't know why I'm bringing it up, but it was, you know, it was kind of focused around Gahira. And that's another cool gecko group that I've just really come to appreciate. I had a picture of a Gahira. It was like this almost white patternless on a, on a red river gum, those white eucalyptus trees. And it just like crazy, like a white gecko on a white tree, kind of neat thing. And we took pictures of them and I sent pictures to

I sent them to Chris Jolly, who wrote the book. And I said, what species is this? I'm having a hard time. He's like, um, did you get a DNA sample? That's about the only way to know with some of those, like there's some that just look identical and the only way to differentiate them is through DNA. So I'm like, Whoa, that's crazy. But yeah, this, uh, narrative went through a different trips to find the higher end and, uh, so you probably find it like blog posts on

Gahira or something on that. But that's definitely a, it's very cool. That's one to choose. I think I'm working, working the other way. You know, talk about charismatic versus, you know, I respect the heck out of that. You know, mine would be considered very, uh, gauche as opposed to that. Right. Yeah. I actually probably, probably find it while we're chatting here. But yeah, I think Wes

Reid photography, I think that was it. But yeah, he must be doing some kind of study or something on Gahira because like, yeah, it's interesting. But there's some gorgeous species of Gahira out there that are just really unique. And we saw a bunch of those in the Northern Territory in Darwin area. And then when I was in the Central Australia on that trip, we saw very similar looking species, but completely different species. But they look the same as a lot of the ones up in the far North. And it was crazy. Yeah, just the diversity of Gahira is incredible, especially considering they look identical. You know, he can't differentiate him other than by DNA. So that was kind of

fun, but cool stuff all around. I was just looking at Ross McGibbon's pictures and he's got some, some stuff from like Wai'ala area, that South Australia area where we went. So it kind of brought back some fun memories. I'm like, man, those rocks look familiar. I wonder if, you know, sure enough, that's where we were. So pretty fun. But I don't know, lots of good stuff out there. Again, I listened to some fun interviews with Frank Colachico and some of his adventures he's been putting out.

Yeah. I got the other one queued up to listen to you But yeah, I agree with you really good you I love his perspective we had him on what going on maybe Joe what you're talking about a year 18 months ago something like that Yeah, it's a super sweet guy super interesting always makes it compelling it does really good You know compelling to get folks out in the field and check it out Right and also to to not just focus on the popular the popular, the stuff that everybody... He's out there looking at some really obscure things. And I guess you can get to the opposite end of the spectrum

where only the new stuff will excite you. And I don't know that I want to be on that far end of the spectrum either. I can't get excited by the common stuff. I just have to have this ultra rare stuff. But, you know, it is what it is. And I think we all kind of have that to some extent, like I want to see something new rather than just going back to the same place and seeing all the same things. Yeah. So I don't know. It's a balance, I guess. But yeah, he's talking species I've never heard of or that kind of thing, little obscure geckos from South Africa or something. You're like, whoa, that's pretty cool. Or discovering new ones in Oman or something. Yeah. So check out his interviews and his videos are really cool. Next level videos. I think that was kind of what the,

not another reptile podcast they, Matt really hit on that, you know, how cool his videos are and stuff. Yeah, his Western Australia trip was phenomenal. Yeah, I was jealous of some of the things they found like that multifacilator, the centralian blue tongue skink sitting in the waterfalls and Dale's gorge. I'm like, Oh my gosh, I would have given a right arm to see that.

But anyway, all right. Well, um, we will, uh, thank Eric and Owen and the NPR crew for hosting our podcast and, uh, we will, uh, say farewell and we'll see you again next week for up top fight club. Thanks guys. We will say farewell and we'll see you again next week for Riptide Fight Club.