Reptile Fight Club - Selling at Shows vs Online w/ Keith Sweet

Episode Date: July 5, 2026

In this episode, Justin and Rob discuss Selling at Shows vs Online w/ Keith SweetWho will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comIG https://www.instagram.com/jgjulander/Follow Rob @ https://www.instagram.com/highplainsherp/Follow MPR Network @FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQSwag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to Reptile Fight Club. I'm Justin, your host for the evening. And with me is Rob. I guess it's not necessarily the evening. You can be listening in the morning on your drive or something. Never. But yeah, we're here to record another show. And we've got a guest with us tonight, Keith Sweet.

So thanks for being here. And welcome to Reptile Fight Club. How you doing? I'm doing well. I'm happy to be here. A long-time listener. first time caller. Yeah.

Right on. Yeah. So Keith message me and asked, you know, presented a topic. So I'm like, that sounds good to me. Let's get you on here. So he was nice enough to come on and chat with us tonight, fight with us a bit. So that'll be fun. I had a nice visitor yesterday.

Jordan and his family were driving through. So I got to go out to dinner with him. He brought me a nice gift. The pine snakes and bulls. and Bull Snakes and Gopher Snakes book from Craig Trumbauer. I love that book. Yeah. I picked that up at a Tenley along with a couple of gopher snakes myself.

Oh, cool, cool. What type of gopher snakes? They're both Sonorans. One is a meeker. head albino, posh, a zanthic, and the male is just the normal triple

head, um, maker as xanthic and albino, I think. Cool. Yeah. They're fun snakes. I like pet, pitch you all for a lot. Yeah. Yeah, they're really cool. I've only really had a lot of experience with the great basin gophers, which live around me

and, and I'm always happy to see them. They're one of my favorites. One of my first pets was a great basin gopher. And then, you know, being in Arizona, seeing some snoring gophers and California, seeing some of the coastal pitiful office. I really haven't gotten, you know, to see any bull snakes or pine snakes yet. But Rob has been much more fortunate in that area. But, yeah, great book. I haven't had a chance to dive in too deep yet, but, yeah.

I've been driving down to Kankakee every year for the last like four or five years to find glass lizards and bull snakes. And I found both on my first trip. I haven't seen anything. But I'm hoping to go back down there here at the end of the month. How cool. How far is it from you? So the Kankakee sands, there's like three outlooks.

There's one on the border of Indiana and Illinois, and that one's the closest, and that's about a two, two and a half hour drive. The furthest one is in Kankakee, Illinois itself, and that's about a five-hour drive. So I try to do both. nice yeah so not too terribly far but far enough that it becomes a little bit of a you know not just a day drive yeah yeah yeah not a quick night trip or something but yeah that's cool yeah that's uh i guess the bull snakes prefer to cut come out like right at at dawn so i got to leave here at like 4 a.m. in order to get down there in time to see the bullslegs got come out. So in that sense, I guess it's like deer hunting.

Right. Yeah. I mean, it helps to know their natural history so you can be there when they're out. Yeah. Hopefully you didn't use up all your luck on that beginner trip. No, man. I'll get more. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah, I'm excited to dig into the book and get to you know, get into it a little bit more. I also picked up Rick Shine's new book after, I think Lisa posted that on the chat or something in NPR chat. But yeah, it's nice to have that one, too. I need to dig into that as well.

A lot of things to read here, but, yeah. I'm not really over familiar with Rex Schein's books. Isn't he like an Australian herpetologist? Yeah, yep, yep. Okay, cool. He did a book. I read his, I think it was his first. Well, he, I mean, he's written a few books,

but like his first kind of, I guess, semi out of biographical. I don't know how you'd refer to it, but yeah, it's more stories from his research and his life and things like that. I did have a book on Australian snakes, you know, that was written by Rick Schein. It's a really great book. Has like a lot of different perspectives on different Australia taxa. But these ones are like stories from his research days and like being up on a cliff and almost falling off or something trying to find broadheaded. snakes and so it's really entertaining and fun read um that one was too many too many snakes too little time or something like that so so that was the first one yeah yeah and then this one is like

in the pit or you know confessions of a snake uh researcher or something like that i can't remember the exact sound like a bruce means type style like a running style yeah i'm a big fan of it has work too. Yeah, yeah, Bruce does some good work. I love stocking the plume serpent. That's great. Yeah, yeah. Yep, that's actually the book I was

thinking about myself. Yeah, yeah, that's got some fun, fun stuff in there. I mean, he starts out with a snake bite story and having to crawl his head by an eastern and his head and gets trumped by an alligator, snapper, all sorts

of crazy stuff. But, you know, volcano story with his sons, And, oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's had some adventures. Yeah, it's a fun one.

And it's only like, what, 10 bucks on Amazon or something. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of good stuff out there. Too many books, too little time. I guess I should tell Rick Shine, you know. Yeah.

That's cool. I also got a nice little package from Dustin Gron. Got some O.E. Derefimbrea, the Western Velvet Geckos. Oh, cool. They're really nice looking. really beautiful species. So excited to work with those.

And you got some blue tongue skinks. So that was fun to swap some animals and get a new species that I've, you know, been, been fortunate enough to see in the wild. So it's always, I don't know, there's something about that when you see it in the wild. And you're like, man, I just, I want to see that every day kind of thing. That's why. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. There are definitely a lot of species that I'm like, okay, I'm happy just seeing them those in the wild and not trying to keep them in a cage or anything. But, yeah. So my wife got me a slender glass lizard for Father's Day. And I couldn't be any more excited. Oh, that's cool. Legless lizards, I've got five shoulder

Piersks right behind you. And it's great. That's cool. I'm really into the Australian, like, Delma and some of those legless geckos that they have over there. Yeah. But you can't really get them up. Yeah, the scaly foots are so freaking cool. The little flap were like hind legs.

Yeah. Yeah, they're really cool. Yeah. Yeah, they nest communally, like other geckos and stuff, too. Like, that's so ridiculously cool. Yeah. Like, I love it. Yeah.

And the birdons, like those lizards are everywhere. Like, you see that on every trip you go on. So they're pretty common out there, too. But, yeah, they're very, I guess there's a lot of geckos for them to eat, but a little tricky to keep in captcha. Yeah. Yeah. But you know what's up in the lines.

Yeah. It took me three trips to find one. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think I saw one. I don't know if I've gone to Australian haven't seen one.

This seems like they. Must be nice. Yeah. Yeah. Because we saw some in Kakadu and in Darwin area, right? On our trip. We saw at least one. And the same night we saw that blackheaded python on the,

drive back. Yeah. Man, that's so cool. I love blackheads. Yeah. I love just do one of those in the wild. Like, I can't even imagine, like, how excited I'd be. Yeah.

Australian king snakes that are like seven foot. Like, come on. Yeah. They're very cool snakes. Yeah. So hopefully we'll have a book out here soon about them. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, you heard about the Aspedites book. Yeah. Yeah. It's been a paper of love for a while. So it'll be good to have it wrapped up here. I think we're pretty close. But that's, yeah, that's Lucas. I'm leaving kind of the lion's share of the work to him.

So it'll be his baby, basically. He'll be the first author. But yeah, good stuff. And then, yeah, I was listening to Carpets and Coffee. And Eric and Owen were and Lucas were kind of talking about the Utah field guy, like it was almost a secret or something. like we hadn't announced it or hadn't talked about it. But yeah, it's been, I think you can pre-order it from Bob right now and should be available here,

kind of mid to end of July. I'm going to go down to IHS and pick up a bunch of cases of it. So if you want one directly from me, feel free to reach out and, you know, ask me and I can arrange it. The only problem is like freaking post or post office is like raising prices on everything. Like, I just don't know. Who is that? Yeah, but, like, that's one that's supposed to kind of keep it reasonable, you know.

I don't want to pay FedEx prices when I'm trying to, you know, send a letter or a book or something, you know. It's outrageously expensive right now. I mean, I was looking at shipping a book or two to Australia, and I think for their medium flat rate box, it's $100. And seriously, like, I'm pretty sure, like with the first book. this was 10 years ago, but still with the first book, it was, I think, $16 to ship a book to Australia. So from for the last, what, 15 years, it's gone up from $16 to $100 plus to ship a box. It's insane. Now, 16 was probably just one book in a, you know, padded envelope, but still, like, it's crazy.

And even last year, I think it was 60 to send a flat rate box. So they're just, I don't know, our country is becoming very expensive to live in. Oh, yeah, yoy. Least gas price. Yeah, I drive a high low for a living, so I'm feeling it. Yeah. I don't breed snake. They just have them.

They're just like a burning a hole in my pocket. Yeah. That's kind of the reason I breed something. You know, I'm figuring, well, I'm keeping a mini. way, might as well give others the opportunity to work with these cool species and then kind of pay for their food and things like that. So, you know, speaking which, I got some, some pygmy banded pythons to hatch out. And I've heard, oh, they're as bad as pygmies to get started.

Like, they're just really picky. And I threw in a live pinky to, I think I, I've tried all six of them. And four took on the first attempt without any. scenting or manipulation or anything. So I'm like, you know, it's a little much to do about nothing. But, yeah, for some reason, these guys are taking to eating really quick. And so that's been nice to not have to fight with them like a pygmy. But, yeah, so I'm pretty stoked.

And they're awesome looking. Like, they hatched out huge, too. They're probably like two or three times the size of a pygmy python. I'm not sure how that female had all those eggs in there because it was like about half her body weight in eggs. And then the babies are like a good 10 grams each. So kind of great. But yeah, really interesting, unique thing. So pretty excited to be working with those and have, you know, have some babies out. And hopefully I'll be able to offer a pair or two. I haven't sexed them yet. So I don't know my ratio. May end up with a Lucas ratio this year or something. Have a bunch of

males or something, but we'll see. I just kind of, I like to wait until they're feeding reliably before I mess with them too much, but yeah, fun stuff. But the rest of the eggs in the incubators still have another month to go. So it's kind of nice to have a couple hatch out and then a, you know, gap of time where I can get them feeding, get them solid, and then move on to the next round or whatever. So, yep. All right.

Well, Keith, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? how you fit into herpetology, herpeticulture, herpa, herpa whatever, herping. Yeah, I guess we've heard a little bit about your herping adventures, but yeah, kind of, where do you fit in there? So, so my earliest snake memory was, uh, well, was, uh, digging around in a, in a neighbor's trash heap when I was out, I don't know, five or six. And I found a garter snake. I pick it up and it bites me. And I'm like, well, that's cool. And I run home to show my grandparents.

And I'm like, look, look, I got bit by a snake. And they weren't nearly as excited as I was. My grandpa grabbed the shotgun. He asked me if it was striped. And he ran out the door to go look for it. So, yeah. Yeah, I was raised by my grandparents, and they tell me that as soon as I could walk, I had a snake in my hands. So I guess it's been a thing for a minute.

Right. Did you ever educate them or get a? to relax a little bit about the snakes? I'm still trying. Yeah. So, so, so, so I, I didn't have a lot of, like, interests growing up. Like, I wanted to learn about snakes and lizards and stuff, but obviously, I wasn't a lot of have snakes.

So for, for my fifth birthday, my and mother gave him got me a yellow-throated plated lizard so most people

don't even know what the hell that is like they're not really like around anymore right but uh but uh yeah I

I had him for about nine years and uh and over over time I had bearded dragons I had iguanas that that that would

for rearrange in my room because I was 16 and I didn't know any better right I fell in love with a

monitor lizards I remember got going to the the the the the Chicago

reptile house after the seeing a documentary on a Nile Crocodiles, and the monitors would work together, distract the crocodiles, and then others would come in and eat the eggs. So, like, I knew what these lizards were, and I'm like, that's the coolest thing ever.

So we go into Chicago Reproids. I see that there's a baby there for, like, 40, box or something. And I'm like, grandma, can I get this? And she's like, yeah, whatever. Well, well, she didn't look past that one wall of cages because on the adjacent wall, they had like a five-footer in a vision cage that was pissed off and slapping the glass and all this, that, and the other. And I knew what it was. But, but, uh, I'm a similar story. My, my wife bought me a Nile monitor for a wedding present because she thought it looked similar. similar to a Parenti, which I, you know, I've always loved Parentis and wanted a Parenti, but she's like, this is pretty close.

And so she got me one. I had it for a number of years, but man, that thing never settled down, never would love to handle it. It was pretty crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yep, I had mine for probably eight, nine years, and he was as hateful as the day I got him. And it smack me with his tail and shot tromp down on my finger. And he's like doing that weird pulse thing that monitors do when they bite. I'm like, that sucks.

But look at those teeth. That's so cool. Yeah. Not so great when they're big. It's kind of cute when they're little. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. they're big. Yeah. Yeah.

He got to about the, uh, two foot mark and it stopped being cool. It just started hurting after that. Yeah. But, um, um, eventually,

uh, um, I got my driver's license and I started going to a pet, pet store in town. town like once or twice a week after school. And I, a friend of the manager, and ironically enough, her and her boyfriend lived a mile down the road for me,

and he, and he bred and sold snakes. So luck, I started going over there instead. And at the time, I'm still living at home and my grandmother wants me to to trade my room upstairs with her room or her sewing room downstairs and she wanted to completely switch them that was a lot of work so i said okay i'll do it if i can have two snakes she said okay just don't breed them well uh i had a car and a job so I did what any reasonable person

would do and I got more snakes. So so so so no one ever went in my room yeah yeah no I never went into my

room so over the next couple of years I'd sneak in more and more stuff so so by the time that they did open Pandora's box. I had some big Burmese pythons in there,

a pair of Amazon tree bows. I had a rhinoceric wiper in my dresser drawer. I had a bunch of dumb shit that I shouldn't have had. Yeah. But at the time, they noticed I hadn't been

working for for a minute, but I still had all these animals and I wasn't asking for money. So they asked how I was doing all this and I was buying and selling rep puzzles there for a year or two. So, yeah. So, eventually, I moved a couple times, had a few life changes, blah, blah, blah, blah. And about 10 years ago, I met my wife online. And she wanted to buy a green tree pop python off me, but she didn't know what the hell she was doing.

So I'm just like, look. So eventually we started dating. I moved in. Our collection grew. I decided that I was. was going to try and make a name for myself by breeding re-ticks. Made a lot of stupid-ass decisions for that. Didn't turn out too well.

Long story short, I took a big step back from the breeding. I don't have any retics at all anymore. the only big snakes I've got are some burns that I produce myself and I use those for like educational like outreach things and and and back when my wife and I got together we formed a Facebook page that we wanted to use like to promote our business so so when we didn't have anything for sale, I would try and post like educate caseional content to try and

get people interested in what we were doing. And over time, I just stopped having animals for sale so that, so we do a lot of a lot of an

educate caseional stuff. I learned about Brian Hughes. out in Arizona and how he relocates rattlesnakes for a living. Wow, that's a dream come true right there. You get paid to take rattlesnakes out of people's yards. On your time off, you're still able to go out and look for rattlesnakes.

It just blew my mind. So I live in Michigan. We have one species of rattlesnake that even if I did get a call for it, I can't touch the damn thing. So, so, so, so I took a risk at, and I started offering on relocate kitchen services anyway. And, and my entire life, I've heard how cheap a shotgun show is. So, so, like, to me. Like, people who don't like snakes would rather spend a quarter to blow a snake in half than spend a hundred dollars for some Yahoo off of Facebook to come to take it out of the yard.

So, like, I don't charge anything for my services or anything. I just want people to stop killing snakes. Right. So, so, so that's actually been doing phenomenal. we only get about half a dozen calls a year. But growing up, I would always hear about these mystical blue snakes that grew as long as the road is wide.

They could touch by the side of the road, and they would chase you and bite you under blue and all this, that, and the other end. And I looked for these damn things for years, And I started doing these calls, and that's all I had to find these damn things. But I've probably relocated about two dozen blue racers or so in the last four years. and I still have only seen a few that weren't on calls. Like they're so nervous and observant and fast in all the house or hard for me to find.

Right. But a couple months ago, I went back to the spot where I do a lot of the Blue racer releases because I've found them there before. We found seven of them in like half an hour and three were in a big ball about the size of a basketball. Just chilling out and hanging.

Wow. And yeah, like that was one of the coolest herping experiences that I've ever had seven blue racers in half an hour. And, like, damn. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah.

Yeah. Those experiences are kind of rare, so it's nice for me. They do happen. Yeah. No. Blue racers, like, immediately be kicked him one of my favorite snakes because of all the, like, misconceptions they're like

natural history and they're freaking blue how many naturally blue snakes can you find in your yard like come on but cool but uh yeah like

I I've got some things I'm I'm hoping to breathe like these uh shot shelter Pusix I think are fun.

I'm hoping to get some eggs because not a lot of people work with them. And, yeah, I got some gopher snakes to grow up because those are fun and anyone can have them unlike a retick. Yeah. I've got some Eastern colored lizards at home. I think the male is starting to start. interest in breeding. So that might go somewhere. But, yeah, I mainly just keep and teach stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well, that's awesome. Yeah. It sounds like we've got a lot of commonalities and, you know, growing up and just being fascinated and bringing stuff home and trying to talk our guardians into letting us bring them in the house and stuff

like that. So, yeah. It sounds like they're accommodating. They were somewhat accommodating letting you eventually get some snakes or keep. Yeah. So like I could have lizards. I could have turtles. I brought home a baby alligator and they're just like, is this legal?

And I'm like, yes, yes, it is. And they're like, I guess it's got legs. That's all that really matters to me. It's funny how big of a, you know, part that can play, those phobias. It's crazy. Yeah. So, like, I've tried for forever to get my grandparents to be a little bit more like open-minded with it. And it wasn't until I had a daughter that tried to teach them the same stuff that I've been teaching them.

So now my grandpa is a little bit more like open-minded about it. Like, but my grandmother, not so much. She doesn't even like the rubber snakes my daughter used to sleep with. Yeah, it's amazing what kids can do to help adults see the, you know, what's important or what's, what's not important, I guess, fears and phobias. Cool. Well, we're going to chat tonight about online sales versus, you know, vending shows. both from a seller as well as a buyer's perspective. So this was Keith's idea.

So I thought it sounded like a good one. So we'll go ahead and flip a coin between myself and Rob to see who gets the opportunity to fight you tonight. So go ahead and call it. Tails. It is heads. I'll go ahead with this. Yeah. So I will, yeah.

And then go ahead and call. it, Keith? I'm going to say heads. It is heads, double heads today. So you get to pick which one you want to fight for, I guess, tonight. I think I will go, crap, I don't even know. I think I'll go shows over online. pro shows. Okay. Okay. Sounds good. And as the winner of the coin toss, you can either go first or let me go first.

I'll let you go first. Okay. All right. So I'm an online guy. And so I, you know, I have vended a lot of shows. And then in recent years, I've gotten more interested in herping. And so I've kind of shifted over to doing more online sales versus shows. A lot of the reason was because the shows were during prime herping time. And so it's like, you know, I don't want to spend my time, you know, going to a reptile show when I can go on a herp trip instead. And so that that was kind of what kind of slowed down my show attendance. And, you know, I did enjoy doing the shows, but I will say, you know, it's a lot of work. You got to pack all these animals up. You got to, you know, get them into deli cups or displays or whatever you're doing. schlep them across, you know, however far you're going to get them to the show.

And then, you know, they're sitting at suboptimal conditions in the deli cup for a few days or more, you know, depending on how far you had to travel for the show. And then, you know, there's risk of picking up mites or other diseases at the show, you know, from other people who might be on the backside of your booth and little crawly things might crawl under the, you know, the divider, they don't, they don't honor those dividers very well. So, you know, there, there, there were just some, some definite downsides, which made me think, well, you know, I'll try doing online more, you know, as a bigger part. Now, of course, that's got its downsides as well, but I have found that, you know, you can make your sales. The animals go from,

you know, basically overnight to their, to their new homes. And so it's not, quite as, I guess, traumatic. It's pretty quick trip for them to get to their new place. And so, you know, for those were kind of the reasons that drove me more towards online sales versus shows. So that's kind of where I would start. So all the reasons that I don't go to shows anymore. Yeah.

But I will say that app shows you can. have a sense of community like me I'm not a people person I don't like even grocery shopping but going to like a concert and a repel show those are the only big like

crowd events that I'm okay going to. So I guess there's like a sense of community or belonging but you only get that so much online. but again we don't really it's about sales so there's that um yeah um i i've always had a horrible

luck selling animals online so um i would assume that at shows you get more people are coming by your booth or your tent table they see the five 10, 30, 100 animals, whatever you have all at once. Right. You might be more likely to make a sale. I know that trades happen, whether it's a good thing or not. If I'm trying to sell like $500. worth of animals to like pat

pay to feed the other animals that I have but someone's got like a got got like a Miami Stillwater ghost bull snake it's going to be really hard for me to turn that down really pretty awesome so I guess it's easier to be irresponsible

but it's also more fun to be irresponsible. I mean, so there's a fun factor to it. Yeah, that's that's one of the things I found too is, you know, you might make, you know, a bit of money at the show and you have all this cash in hand. I remember walking away from my first California show feeling like I was a drug dealer or something because I just had this big water, you know, 20s and 50s or whatever, you know, you just felt like, and you know, several thousand dollars and we're driving me and Ben, uh, moral at the time, we're driving back from California and we're like, man, this, how cool was that? You know, we go to this show, we get a hang out with reptile people and then come home

with a big chunk of change. But at the same time, you know, you have all this money and you see something you like and you're like, maybe, you know, and a lot of the money doesn't come home because, you know, you're trading the money that you made from selling animals for stuff you find out of the shows where online you don't have that as much of a problem. So I went to this last Tenley show and we got the VIP passes so we got in the show before it even opened.

And we were in there half an hour maybe. And we and I walked past this table. So it's full of new. and before I know this couple shows up with a big cardboard box they just start slapping down a hundred dollar bills on the table

the dude sold all of his nutes before the show even opened that's like crazy to me like good for you dude but but like So obviously the financial upside is there for him, but for the animals themselves, they don't have to go through shipping and get jostled around and stressed out, especially for something as stress sensitive as a newt.

I think that that would be a safer way to purchase a ridiculous amount of nudes. Yeah, yeah, if you're purchasing big animals or big quantities of small animals, yeah, it can be very expensive and add that cost to ship them. So, yeah, you got a good point there of saving a little money from the ship. So, so as I've like hinted at before, I also have worked with a lot of venomous snakes as well. So one time I ordered some red spitting cup covers online. Has one done. Yeah, you know, all casually.

So I'm opening up the crate. And they're in a mesh bag. Not in a state. They're not in a pillowcase. They're not in clear deli cups. they're in a mesh bag that they can just shoot right through into my eye as soon as I open up the crate. Yeah. At least at a show, they're in deli cups.

Right. Yeah. I still remember like a back in the old days. But you got to like pick them up and. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. No, no, no. Yeah, I kind of interrupted you. but I remember this price list I got from Zuhirp back in the day,

and they had a red spitting cobra on there, and it said, free. Like, they just wanted it out of there because it was so hard to work with. They can be a handful. Did you, so how long did you have those for? Were they pretty crazy? Or they? No, so red spitters in my experience are pretty laid back.

easy to deal with. I don't have a ton of elapid experience. I've worked with red spitters, zebra spitters, endo-chid spitters, endo-chid Chinese spitters, monocles

and Egyptians. The only of those that I wouldn't have, again, are the Egyptian snouted cobras. I don't know what's going through

people's heads with those angry things, but I don't want anything to do it out. Yeah, I'll stick to the spitters that barely even hood. Yeah, those zebra spitters are nice looking. They're really cool snake. Yeah. Yeah, so mine was essentially like a six-foot corn snake. He very rarely heard.

I think he's about one time and it's because I gave him a rat that was too big so so so he saw that as a threat not as a meal okay yeah interesting well yeah I mean I do I do like the idea of you know not having to ship and you know shipping is is is nerve-wracking because you've got a, you know, pack it, you know, pack it right, make sure there's either, and, you know, sometimes it'll be hot on the shipping side and cold on the receiving side or vice versa. So, you know, if it's cold where you're shipping from and you ship it somewhere hot, do you put in a heat pack or, you know, it's like all these things. And so sometimes you're just not able to ship because it's either too hot or too cold and, you know, or there's a lot of snow or

whatever. So, yeah, a lot of things can get in the way of shipping. So, yeah, I guess that's a Yeah, but you get that with shows to too, because people will will keep their snakes and deli cups in her car. Right. that baking in the hot sun. Right. Yeah. So I guess that's been a lot of point for you. Seen that happened a few times where people come back into the show and go, hey, you know, my snake died.

And like, what are you talking about? How did it die? I've done it before completely by accident on my way back from Tenley. I had the AC going on in my car, so I didn't think anything of it. and I had an albino Chinese cat had Kingrad in the back seat and the sun, not thinking anything of it. Yeah, but shit happens. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's a tough lesson to learn, though, yeah.

So I don't think I've had too many bad experiences with FedEx. I think once a skink, you know, I was shipping a skink and it got handled a little roughly. and so it had like a back kink after it arrived. You know, they just didn't treat it very well. He said the box was pretty beat up, so, you know, that's pretty bad. Yeah. Yeah. One, one.

You see those instances where there's a, uh, video, like a, like a, a FedEx per person rough housing a box on like a person's fault or and I

and I and I've I know a guy that's had that happen with live animals the person just didn't like snakes and they were like

kicking the box up the stairs with her foot and like everything lived, but like that cannot be a good experience. Right. Yeah. And I had one box that got, you know, delayed and was put in a warehouse overnight. And it was some adult Centrolean Python, so a pretty good size snake.

And when the person got the box, he's like, yeah, they're all dead. They're frozen. And I'm like, oh, man, you know, I'm just thinking now I got to refund and all this stuff. And so for some reason, he put him in the cage that he had prepared just to, you know, make sure, whatever. And he came home from work and they were crawling around and fine. So, like, some of these things are, and, you know, some are pretty famous stories of, you know, getting a ball python more from Africa and having it arrived solid, you know, frozen solid. But then it goes out and it's just fine. So reptiles can be fairly tough.

But, yeah, it's definitely nerve when something gets lost or delayed. but for the most part, you know, it hasn't been an issue. I've had pretty good luck, knock on all the wood and, you know, make sure I don't jinx it. Yeah, so that excerpts and Cobra, I mentioned earlier, when I went to put the angry, hateful thing in its tub, I dump it out and I think it's dead. I didn't know that they played dead. Oh, yeah. I figure, well, it's either dead or it's cold and it's going to come back and we'll see what happens. And, man, the next time I opened up that tub, it was like coming at me and striking.

And that thing was like a baby. It wasn't very big. Right. Yeah. Yeah. No. That's no, boy, no. Again, something, you know, it's important to know the natural history of things.

Yeah. You don't get surprised by their tricks. And that happened probably 15 years ago. I've never seen anyone like even mention any like a lapids aside from like a ring halls to play dead. Right. Yeah. Maybe it's a pretty current current, I don't know. Right.

I guess with with online sales too you know you've you've got the the opportunity to kind of have maybe more time for people to think about it there's not a lot of pressure you know situations you know it's not like oh I have to make up my mind in the next three hours before the show closes you know so they can make sure they really want that animal and that they're ready for it you know there's no impulse buy or less impulse buys, I guess we can say, with online sales versus at a show. That's something that kind of, you know, you feel a little like, are these people ready for this animal, you know? And sometimes you might even, may not even want to sell somebody an animal just because you're not sure that that's going to work out well for them kind of thing, you know. So I think that's a important thing to consider too with.

yeah so like personally when when a person messages me to to include quorum about an animal i stalk their page uh uh if everything they have is in like deplorable condition i can see that and i don't want to deal with them right uh because i like the animals more than money i'd rather just give them away and know that they're going to a good place. Right. Then McMaster vending the other than. Yeah. But I don't know if that's a thing that other people do,

but, but, yeah, you can't really do that at shows. It's a little harder. Yeah, it's a little more awkward to say, you're not buying my snake to their face, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What When I was The RETIC thing

I had I had a A female Green and a cot Kind of that I traded for a Platinum mochette Chinar Retic And

And that's an expensive animal So like I just assumed like Right off the bat That the owner actually knew something about snakes while he came back to the show later

and he's like this thing just just keeps biting me so I keep flicking it when it does so it can learn not to bite me and I'm like that oh you're making it so much worse and like I felt

horribly guilty for that forever because like an Anaconda is not not going to bite you you know. Right. Yeah. But I'm not. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you spend more time educating the public, you know, especially when you keep things that aren't well known. Like, I mean, when I spend a reptile show, I feel like I'm just talking, you know, saying the same things over and over because people have never seen or don't know much about, you know, Antaresia, the, you know, children's Python group. And so, you know, kind of at least showing them, okay, this is the different species in this genus. These are all the, you know, members of the Antaresia genus or something. So, I mean, I do enjoy that. So I'm not going to say it's a complete con.

But at the same time, it's like, you know, not the biggest pro when you spend all day just kind of telling people what you have versus, you know, having people that are interested. So with online sales, you get focused buyers who know what you have, know what you have, know, what they want and they're coming to you for a reason rather than just kind of kicking tires or walking past your booth because they're just making their way through the show, you know. And, you know, sometimes people will get interested. Yeah, exactly. So they can get to get to know what, you know, what the animals are beforehand. So they're not asking you all the, you know, all the questions.

And you're not, you don't feel like you're trying to talk them into something, you know, It's like, I don't know. That's kind of the, usually I come away from shows going, man, I spend a heck of a lot more time educating people, which is good. But, you know, it's a long day to, you know. And that's my big concern about breeding these Shelter Pusics. Because I've found one person that breeds them like consistently. she does it almost every year. And the babies, I guess, are very, like, very fragile.

Oh, really? Yeah, so, like, she breeds them at a zoo, and they don't even, like, touch them for, like, the first month. They set them up completely hands off because, like, even, like, delicately handling these things, you can, like, break ribs and stuff. They're like Tales will break off And like you can't even see that you're doing damage, but you are. So, so,

um, so me having to sell those online and worrying about the jostle during travel and shipping. Right. Versus me taking a bunch of weird little striped gray worms to a reptile show and trying to explain to people that these are not. snakes. These are lizards. You cannot keep them like snakes and so on and so forth.

The good thing, they have small clutches. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. How long does it take for them to toughen up, I guess, or to be able to be shipped? That I don't know because she breeds them at a zoo and they trade between zoos. They don't, like, they don't make them available out to the public. So I'm one of a handful of people that's trying to figure them out in the private sector. But if and when I do get babies, I'm certainly not going to be in any big hurry to get them out the door. Yeah.

Yeah, that's cool. I also think that working with some of the, you know, these oddball or, you know, things that people don't really work with very often or that are, you know, not very well known. I think that's, as long as you kind of can have that personality, get people excited about them or you're showing people how cool they are, you know, those kind of things, you can get people excited. and where you're, you know, online has a much broader audience, you know, like if, you know, no offense, but I'm not a big fan of Shelta Pusig's. I think, you know, I'm not, you know, I look at them and go, ah, pass, you know, like, but I'll look at a Australian. They look very offended.

I've got two of them right there. They're standing at me. They look very upset at your eyes. Cover, cover their ears, you know. Yeah. I wouldn't have to worry about it. They were snakes, you know, they wouldn't hear me. But, you know, so like, but, but.

But I'm sure there's people that if they found out, you know, there's a thing called the Shelter Pusick and it's a legless lizard and it's, you know, European, you know, cool different, different thing that not everybody has. You know, people can get excited about that and say, wow, why aren't there more around, you know? Because it used to be pretty fairly commonly imported, right? You just don't seem to be on the list or anything anymore, do you? And then. I don't even know. And then because of the war and you crane, that's where the vast majority is. of them were being exported from.

That stopped for two or three years. And then just last year, they started being exported out of Greece. And that's how I got three of mine. Gotcha. Okay. So how are they established? Are they kind of finicky? Are they all right?

So this is my first time really, like, establishing imports. and I couldn't have it couldn't have been any easier. They ate immediately. I set them up in like Christmas tree tubs with a

box with some spagnum as like a humid hide in a water bowl and I left them like that for six months and I didn't have any issues. I didn't see any parasites. They came in a little

scarred up. I'm guessing from breeding because that was that top time of year. But yeah, they shut out. They've been great ever since. They eat everything.

Worms, fish, insects, chicken hearts, mice, frog legs, they are garbage disposal. Like, they're great. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's exciting. Yeah, it's nice to hear people working with, you know,

different things rather than the main five, you know, that kind of thing. Well, yeah, that's cool. But, yeah, so, so like I said, I do like a lot of, like, online content and I don't know if you can hear very well but I don't talk too good. So most of my content is all text, but I also have ADHD like a son of a bitch and I will spend like three hours on a post that's like eight paragraphs long about why rattlesnakes are awesome.

Right. And I've gotten a lot of complaints about that. like how are we supposed to read all this? And I'm just like, well, I don't want it to be in video. Like I do this stuff in person too, but I've been invited to do it at a Rep Hill Show in Pennsylvania, which I politely declined, because there's no way for me to make money after spending all that gas to get there and back and all the food hotels and all that nonsense.

Like you don't make an income by going, this is a lugless lizard. Here's why it's a lizard, not a snake. Here's why it's cool. But if I were to consistently do shows and stuff, I'm sure it might help boost your popularity at least locally. Yeah. But, yeah, I don't know.

There's such a weird niece thing that only appears to a very specific audience. So again, that's a good thing. They don't have a lot of eggs. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I mean, again, like, there's enough people out there that, you know, some, just like you, that they're going to see them and go, that's really cool. I like that, you know, and to each their own, you know, that's kind of how it works. I've gotten people in Canada asking me to ship them some if I get babies.

And I haven't even seen any locks. I haven't seen any breeding behavior or anything like I cycled them. But that's literally all I've got going for me at this point. Right. And I mean, you know, like you said, it's kind of early in the game. And it's hard to justify putting too much of an effort into like attending shows or something to, you know, for the future. down the road. But, you know, once you had a bunch of babies or something, and, you know, it might be worthwhile to get out there and push the word. And, and like you said, I mean, you know, if you have a

website or a, or a social media post with some nice pictures and some text, like people can learn about them at their leisure, you know, they don't have to, you know, stand face to face and listen to somebody tell them about something they may or may not be interested in, you know, that kind of thing. So, again, you kind of have to. Again, you kind of have. Which I'm horrible. I, you know, I am too.

I'm a little, I don't know. I, I probably use, you know, scientific names and terms. And they're like, what are you talking about?

You know, just give it to me straight here. But, you know, so like having it in a, in a text format or in a website format or something, people will come to you with, you know,

because they found that knowledge on, on the internet or something. So more focused audience, less, less, time wasting less you know trying to teach them about it because you've already put the information out there it's it's there for them to read so yeah those are kind of the reasons and i i do think um you know i do miss the the sociality of the shows um but man last time i did my local show i didn't recognize

many people like back in the day i'd go and i'd know everybody you know and now it's like i I know maybe a handful of people. And when I go on herb trips, I know everybody on the herb trip. And we get our sociality there. So it's, you know, kind of scratching that itch, I guess you could say. Yeah, I don't really have a rebuttal to that. Yeah. But, you know, definitely pros and cons.

I definitely enjoy meeting people in person and chatting with them that way. going to shows I do being able to physically pick up and inspect the animals for my or like bubbly noses or anything like that right right I was eyeballing a

great basin got a goat goat gover snake at a tent me to go with my new pitiful office collection and picked it up, inspected it, and there's mites on it. So, you put that down and walk away. Right.

And it's a good thing I didn't order that online. Yeah, right? That is, there is something we said about that. You kind of have to know who you're buying from to some extent. Yeah. You know, Eric Burke got a snake in and it had maggots crawling on it. And he's like, it wasn't from the snake. He's like, well, how, you know, how does this even work?

Like, what is going on here? You know, so, and, you know, and then when he kind of dug into it more, he found out people had many stories about this person. And, you know, you just don't buy that person because unless you have no other choice because he had stuff that nobody else really had, you know, that was one of these importer people. I had a guy offer me a pair of captive breast. six-foot grunan Anacot condas that were puppy-dog tame

and I and I go to the show to like inspect these things and they're three-foot covered in ticks and they still have new marks around their necks and I'm like dude now right yeah that's definitely a benefit

to see it in person before you pull the trigger for sure. Yeah. And you can say, hey, this is not what you described it as. But once it's shipped, it's in your hands.

It's a lot harder to. And then, you know, that person could be long gone and with your money and, you know, laughing all the way to the bank. And it's amazing how, how people can keep swindling people and get away with it and still maintain

a game in the hobby and still do business. It's insane. Yeah. So back in my earlier days, I was vending a show with a buddy of mine, and he bought and sold alligators, which not a good idea in retrospect here in Michigan, but we were vending a show in a show in Detroit. And this guy comes in the door. He's like, hey, I've got a six-foot alligator outside.

You want to come get this thing? And like, we're like expecting it to be like two or three foot. And no, it was actually a six-foot alligator in like a big like cardboard cremation box that he had ratchet straps shut. Oh, go. My buddy offers him 50 bucks for it, and he takes it. And that's a downside to shows. You might accidentally come home with a six-foot alligator that you're paying $60 for. Right.

My wife is probably going to listen to this show and be able to. upset if I don't talk about the number of cobras and rattlesnakes I've impulse bought. So that's an upside. It gets to be

irresponsible, like I said. Right. Yeah, it's a little harder to be impulse by on the, on the internet. Yeah. No, it's not, because I've done that too. Yeah, yeah, it's definitely still happens.

But yeah, a little, $3,000 per reticks, don't mind if I do. Right. Yeah, that's both sides. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, there are still, you know, tire kickers online and, you know, people can ask for a bunch of pictures and they can ask for all this information. You're going back and forth, getting them.

And then they just disappear or, you know, like, you make a deal with them. And they just, you know, when it comes time to get the payment. it doesn't show up. So yeah, there's definitely, you know, that aspect of, of online sales as well. But, you know, usually it's less common than somebody coming up to you at the show and go, oh, I'm interested in this. And then you see them later walking around the show, you know, one that was $20 less at the, you know, table across the hall or something. You're like, oh, hey, I see that. Hey, you said you were interested in mine. You know, it's kind of hard to watch.

watch that happen or you know they'll they'll they'll they'll um try to get your price down and down and down and then they walk across and buy like a brand new you know aquarium or something about python that was more expensive yeah yeah or yeah you're like i thought you said that was your last 20 or you or last hundred dollars or whatever and then they're buying like some expensive set up with yeah i will say though at least that this shows the uh tire kickers waste less of your time because like they might talk to you for like 10 or 15 minutes and cozy up to you before they talk talk you down to to an almost insulting price but online if you put like a five hundred dollar animal and you get and you get

offered a hundred and fifty bucks for them you can just ignore them at that points. Right. But, yeah, you're going to get tire kickers no matter what you do, but at least online, they're not going to spend days asking about the temperament, the feeding schedule, picks from every single angle, like a picture underneath every scale to look for my isn't. Right. Yeah, that's true. That's true. In person, you can look at them yourself. And, you know, if you have like a clutch of animals and they can pick which one kind of stands out to them and which one they like. So I do like that aspect of having a show and having to be able to see them in person. Yeah. And then sometimes, you know, it's hard to get a scale of how big they are. Sometimes people will adjust their photos so it makes them look better than they are. And you get them in your.

you're like, oh, this is a little, this is not what I saw in the picture, you know. Getting out of retics was hard because I'm six foot three, and at the time I was pushing like 3 hundred and eighty pounds. So I'd make like 9, 10 foot returts look small. So I've actually had like other normal sized people like pose with them and be like, this is how big they actually are. Yeah. Right. So yeah.

So that's the downside like being big. Yeah. And, you know, sometimes, you know, providing additional photos with them in hand. or with something in the gauge for reference of the size is, is helpful there. Yeah. You know, and I think it's up to us.

Like, you know, say, hey, just shoot a, shoot a quick picture of it, send it to me, you know,

and then they don't have time to edit it or, you know, just like, yeah, they're right. Text me a photo, photo from your phone and, you know.

A doom caller or something. Right, right. Exactly. You can, you can try things like that to, to lessen your chances, I guess,

of being swindled. Yeah, hey, take me out to your reptile room and show me that animal in its cage. And, you know, like, oh, I don't know if I, yeah. Although, I think if somebody asked me that, I'd be like, yeah, I don't have time for that right now. Like, even if you're going to be happy with it, maybe, I don't know. But, you know, it's. Yeah, yeah, I've had to, uh, politely to cleanse some pet. People like, hey, can I see your facility?

And I'm like, this is a 15. by 15-foot room. It's no facility. Right. It's in my basement. You know, yeah. I remember early on, I was selling rodents out of my house and much to my wife's delight, you know, she was very happy.

These randos coming over to the house. And then one guy, he was buying one rat or something, and he came into the house and tracked dog poop all over her floor. And I'm like, she's like, yep, we're done with this. You can meet them somewhere. in town or they're not coming to the house anymore. I'm like, fair enough. Like that was not a fun lesson to learn. But yeah. And, you know, I do like to meet local folks that have kind of similar interests. And I, you know, I had a lot of people that opened up their doors to me. And I was,

you know, I was that annoying kid that's like, you know, asking these big time breeders, hey, can I come over to your house and see your collection? I'm going to be in town, you know, that kind of thing and you know fortunately a lot of them said yes and let me come come visit them and you know I'm still good friends with them to this day you know it's kind of a cool thing that way so I I kind of want to pay it forward a little bit that way too but yeah it's tricky it's a hard thing to to do sometimes because you never know you know if you don't know the person at all and then you know who knows what their intentions are things like that so you got to be careful and kind of just a little bit.

It usually goes a long way. I just went on a trip to North Carolina for the first time. And we had a tour guide more or less, I've known this guy for like five, five, six years at this point. Right. Like we talked on the, on the, phone a couple of top times, but we never, like, met in person. And he keeps offering us to, like, stay at his house and he can get, and he can get, give us a tour of all these good spots. And,

and like, he's, he's talking it up for months and months and months. And I'm just like, man, I hope this guy isn't a freaking idiot. I hope he's cool. I hope we click and match well. And, yeah, it was an amazing experience. I couldn't have asked for a better time. But yeah, it was like weeks and months of, man, I haul up these guys for real. And he's like, he really knows and shit. Right, right. Yeah, it is a little risky on both ends, I think, too. Yeah, making sure that you're not getting into a weird situation for sure.

That's cool. I was listening, I think it was a Hurpore history. And they were talking about some. there was like a serial killer that was like into reptiles and they went and visited him and then they found out like later oh this guy's a serial killer like he wanted to go herping with me or so like oh man i'm glad i wasn't able to go or something you know like hey man you want to go find some alligators oh he just fell in i i don't know what happened to him no a real good spot with alligator snappers yeah oh man yeah not great Right. Got to be a little cautious there. I'm trying to think if there's any other, if there's other topics I had in mind that we haven't hit yet.

Going to shows, you can pick up on support applies like feeders, heat bulbs, heat tape, mats, cages. Yeah, that's a good point. don't have to pay for shipping on those. Right, right. Or go to PetSmart or something like that and give them your money, you know, that kind of thing. You can support kind of the local reptile shops and things like that that usually come to shows like that. So that's a good point.

Downside depending on what you're after could be all the ball pythons. I'm ridiculously excited to go to a colubrid fest. I'm going to try really damn hard to get it down there this year. Yeah. Because like my main interests at this point are like the legless lizards, rattlesnakes, and like not hunt North American colubrids. And a colubrid only expos sounds absolutely phenomenal, especially with like a community aspect.

to it and the speakers and like it's a three-day event and only one day of it is sales. Like that sounds amazing. Like I couldn't be more excited to go. Yeah, that's cool. You'll get to hear our buddy Owen speak there. Oh, really? Who's going to speak there? Yeah, yeah.

I believe you mentioned that on one of his podcasts. Yeah, that'll be fun event, I'm sure. Yeah, those guys do a good job. I'm likewise excited for the IHS meeting to get to go out there and visit with some. I desperately wanted to go to that, but I can't make it happen this year. But, man, that would be like the cream of the crop, like all the curping and stuff down there, all the talks, and just the Chiricot Cah Desert Museum as a whole, like, man, I want to see all of that. Yeah.

It's kind of a kind of a lot of people is going down there and getting your experience at the Chiricah Desert Museum. Yeah. We've been down there quite a few times, Rob and I. I want to say that the barkers are going to be at this one because it's like the 50th, like, anniversary or whatever. Like, man, that's a once in a lifetime Hurp nerd event. Oh, yeah. Start so much they got to miss it. Yeah, I'm pretty stoked.

Yeah, it's going to be a fun time. I don't like it all thing. No. Yeah, yeah. That's the, oh, I was going to mention in regards to caging and things like that, you know, I guess when you're buying online, hopefully you've got the cage all set up and, you know, you're ready for the animal. You can you can actually say okay I'll buy it now let me get set up and then go ahead and show it when I'm ready that kind of thing and I uh I just discovered uh these um what are

they called G9 bulbs that are um halogen bulbs but they they just have the two prongs instead of you know they don't screw into a fixture they just slide up into it and you know they put off decent heat and light and I found like you can get like these LED ones that are like pretty bright. So I've switched over a lot of my cages because I just had like the fixtures and it's just getting harder and harder to find light bulbs or you know to put in my enclosure. So this and and the bulbs are cheaper. They're like, you know, maybe a dollar a piece or less. And you can, you know, it's it's really cool. So I found a way to, I ordered a bunch of, these metal

bowls like steel bowls and then just drill the hole in them. I fit the fixture through and then just attach it to the top of the cage and you know the wire it up and it's ready to go. It's pretty slick. So I'll have to have to put some. That's cool. I'll have to work into that. Yeah, but it was, it's a nice little option

for those of us who like to have light in our enclosures, that kind of things. Yeah. The pain is having these big stacks of cages that I've got to, you know, take apart and rewire and all those kind of things. But it's, it's, I've got it down pretty slick now. So, yeah, it's, it's, I'm, I'm excited about that. So, you know, you can do things like that where you can, you know, lower your costs a little bit or, or do some, you know, modifications to existing cages or things. when you find a nice system that works like that. So good stuff.

Any other topics you can think of? Oh, other dangers of shows is, you know, you go there looking and you're probably going to find like a book or something else that you might be tempted to spend money on and, you know, come home with an addition to your library. you don't find a reptile. Online is just as dangerous, I'm sure, or more. So, because you have more access, but yeah. Yeah.

Like, I've been trying to keep myself from going overboard with all the animals and stuff. So I've been getting more into the books and stuff myself. And, yeah, my library's growing and, and I try to, pick up at least one book every 10. Just so I can leave with something and feel good and all that jazz. But books are valuable, you know. Yeah, but yeah, there's something to a good book. Yeah.

Oh, man, speaking of the Cherokow Desert Museum, And Bob's new library is pretty freaking amazing. It's so, so impressive. Just, I mean, yeah, that's the place of dreams for a reptile fan. So, especially if you like reptile. Yeah, I can't have mad than this by that place. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty, pretty impressive. So excited to be down there for that again, sit in the library and, you know.

But cool. Well, I don't know. I think we've hit some good topics there. This has been a fun discussion. I appreciate you coming on the show and bringing the topic with you. And, yeah, it's been really good to meet you and hear about your stuff and fight a little bit. Thank you. Yeah, where can people follow you or find your information?

Sweet Exotics on Facebook. Again, it's mostly just like educational comments. content and stuff like that. I don't really sell anything. Cool. I've got an Instagram, too, but I don't really use it. Yeah. Keith Snakes on Facebook is my personal page.

Okay. Yeah. Cool. All right. Well, check it out and get some information. All right. Well, I kind of like to end the show with maybe some cool things. that you've seen in herpetology, herpeticulture.

I mentioned that Kimberly program on PBS. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's more than Herps, the Kimberly thing, but it's pretty, pretty impressive footage and really cool. I mean, it's typical, I guess, nature show, you know, making a story out of maybe, you know, different disparate clips and things, but it's, it's really great footage and just beautiful scenery and animals. So I recommend checking it out. I got it on the PBS.org, you know, website. You can watch it there or on your TV if you get the PBS app. So good stuff. And then the book, I was excited to get that from Jordan.

So I'm excited to dive into that one. You've got that one, don't you, Rob? But you got that book. Yeah. I'm trying to think if there was anything else I was thinking about. I bought a book called Slither, and the author's name is escaping my memory of this point. But it is such a damn good book. I like it as much as the set secret social life.

of reptiles. Okay. Looks by slither and how snakes and are nature's most malign. Yeah.

Yeah, I looked it up. It's by Stephen Hall, how nature's most aligned creatures illuminate our world. Yeah. Yeah, it's a damn good book. I highly recommend it. Cool. Yeah, I did see that one. It looks like it's only 20 bucks as well.

So, yeah, cool. Yeah. I have to check it out. All right. Well, yeah, good stuff. Well, thanks again, Keith, for coming on. Appreciate it. And thanks to Eric and Owen and the rest of the NPR crew for hosting us.

And we'll catch you next time for a reptile fight club.