Reptile Fight Club - Sensationalism in Reptiles is it good or bad?

Episode Date: May 21, 2021

In episode 2, Justin and Chuck fight over whether or not sensationalism is good or bad in the context of reptile education and herpetoculture in general.Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comWebsite: https://www.moreliapythonradio.netYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQ@MPR Network on FB and IG.Email: [e-mail]-spring store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Thank you. All right, welcome to Reptile Fight Club. Today we're talking about sensationalism, so that was sensationalist intro there. Get the ball rolling here. That was a little over the top. I hope I didn't burst any eardrums with that one. Well, welcome to Reptile Fight Club. I'm Justin Julander. And I'm Chuck Poland. Yep. We're ready to tackle another topic.

First, you know, we'll see what's going on. What's going on with you, Chuck? Not too much. I had two Felsuma Grandis eggs that i got so that was that was nice that was um we actually wrapped up the first episode and i went and kind of checked in and uh in on my room and and found them so that was kind of like a nice like uh you know first episode uh gift uh so they're they're in the incubator now um And yeah, I don't seem like I've got too much else going on right now. I'm just prepping for the Tracy-eyed this coming season. So

kind of got them in new cages, letting them kind of acclimate. So hopefully I did that soon enough and it doesn't screw them all up. And I was kind of debating keeping them in their older cages, but they're, they're just, I mean, they're just getting to the size where they need a larger cage, but I actually really think those smaller cages for those animals was one of the tickets that really helped me, um, make some feel a little more comfortable, secure and make more of themselves. 100%. 100%. How about you, dude?

You have a couple different gecko projects, don't you? You've got the Grandus. Yeah. And what else? What others? You've got the electric blues. Yeah. Yep.

The electric blue geckos and then the williams eye and then i've also got standing eye so they're the yeah so they're they're they're pretty i they're probably my favorite they're they're uh they're fun they're pretty they're they've got that nice blue like kind of striped tail um real inquisitive just fun. They, they're a little more communal. You can kind of keep them a little more communally than, than Grandis. Uh, they're, they're pretty chill. Like William Cy are awesome, but man, if you spook them and they run, they're just, they're so fast and they are unpredictable. They're, you know, you think they're going to go one way and they jump the other way

and right out of the cage. And you're like, Oh, oh crap so um it's been you know those are rough yeah oh man they're and they're fast you know but uh yeah a lot of fun a lot of fun that's cool i'm having fun with them so yeah how about you geckos i i've got a female amy that's uh the the rough knobtail gecko centralian knobtail gecko that's getting ready to lay her eggs so hopefully she gives me a couple, a couple more. I, I've got a clutch incubating from her and, um, it's a nice pairing. So I'm excited to see the babies. I'm excited to hatch this species out. It's been a long time. So,

um, that I've been working with these off and on and, and finally, uh, getting, getting productive, uh, female and some eggs. So exciting stuff. Uh, have, have all four species anteresia in the incubator, uh, uh, four species. Yeah. There's, there's some controversy there, but I'm, I'm sticking with four species. I'm not giving up Stimsoni and potentially, I know there's some, uh, naysayers out there, but those, uh, uh, pygmy banded geckos, pygmy banded stimpsons are, or pygmy banded pythons are, you know, very different scale counts, morphology, you know, all sorts of stuff. So I don't know. I'm not really convinced by that paper. We might have a future, talking about taxonomy. We'll get a couple experts in here because I like, uh, you know, I'm, I'm definitely not a taxonomist, but, uh, yeah, I see,

or I've heard a lot of, a lot of people have take issue with that paper. So, um, hopefully that's, that's not the case and that Stimson and I don't go away and become just children. I, but, um, we'll, we'll, uh, talk about that in a future episode, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's stir that pot. That sounds like a good one. Yeah, for sure. That's a great, uh, fight topic. And I think there's a lot of feelings on both sides, you know, when, when we split or lump

or whatever. And it, I mean, it just seems funny that they're, they're gonna split, um, the spotted pythons into, you know, a couple of different subspecies and, uh, and then there, or, or even species. And they're going to sink the Stimson eye completely into children eye, which just seems a little backwards, but maybe, you know, they had a good reason. So I don't know, we need to get some experts on that know better than we do, but cool, man. Um, so yeah, I'm, I'm, I've got, uh, eggs incubating, nothing hatched yet. So hopefully, uh, I don't get overwhelmed once a baby's come along. I've still got a couple animals left from, from last year, a few, uh, Western stems, um, some pygmies I'm still working

on, man. This year has been rough for the pygmy pythons. They're not wanting to eat on their own for the most part. And, um, so working on those, on those, I've got a few more females left to lay some nice Morelia projects. So, uh, hopefully they'll lay some good eggs soon and, uh, have some more Morelia hatching out here soon. Um, other than that, you know, just business as usual. I mean, I'm enjoying my new, uh, pickups. I got some, uh, a couple of different Egernia, uh, spiny-tailed skink species, uh, agurnia depressa. Um, they're, they're really cool little, uh, pygmy spiny-tailed skinks and, uh, the hosmer, uh, agurnia hosmeri, the hosmers, uh, spiny-tailed skinks. They're, they're a lot of fun. Um, so I'm really enjoying them. I saw those. Those are, they're nice. They're, I like those. Yeah. They're a lot of fun. So I saw those. They're nice. I like those. Yeah, they're really nice.

They're supposed to be really shy, but I guess Hosmeri are fairly bold and the depress aren't too bad when it comes to the, you know, some of their relatives. They're a little more skittish, but these guys are fairly bold. They'll come out and eat off the tongs and stuff. So it's a lot of fun. I'm really enjoying. Yeah. Too many cool species out there. Oh, yeah. Yeah. stuff. So it's a lot of fun. I'm really enjoying it. Too many cool species out there. I run out

of space and money and time real fast if I got everything I wanted. So trying to focus, you know, keep that Australia focus and keep the species that I really like there. But yeah, there's, there's a lot of stuff out there. Those day geckos are really fun. We saw some of those in Hawaii and I'm like, ah, that'd be cool to have those in the house they're just so beautiful and seem pretty straightforward you know not too yeah they're pretty inquisitive and fairly easy to keep i mean you gotta you gotta set them up right and maintain them right but uh yeah i mean that's that's anything but uh but yeah all my gifts those are nocturnal so i gotta go out there after lights off and catch them. But yeah, I can't, you can't beat the nephorus. Speaking of nephorus, the new Nobtail Gecko book is out that I authored along with Michael Plank. So if you don't have a copy yet, hit me up on at australiansdiction.com or, you know, know, you can find it from eco, uh, they're the publisher on that book. We're also hard at work at the second edition of the carpet Python book, uh,

the complete carpet Python, uh, Nick and I are, are feverishly working to try to get this book wrapped up. We're starting in on the, uh, um, the layout, the photo layout and getting all the pictures, uh, in there. But, there. But I'm still working on a couple of chapters. I added like nine pages to the husbandry chapter and I'm not quite through it yet. So just things pop up when I'm going through. Nick kind of took the lead on that and he increased it quite a bit. So I've added another eight or nine pages. So it's going to be a very long book. I don't know how we missed some of these things in the first edition, but I guess that's how it goes. You almost get to a point where it's like, okay, enough writing.

I'm sick of this. So hopefully we'll have a very large work to release here very soon. I know everyone's looking forward to it. Yeah, I hope people are excited about it. Hopefully we'll, you know, get get the new book out there. And I'm very happy that the first book did so well. You know, that's always nice to see the support. And, you know, this this industry is great.

The Morelia Python community is fantastic. And, you know, they've always just supported and done some great things with, you know, the at susceptibility to some of the more common antivirals that we had on hand that we use as positive controls that are pretty readily available. So, you know, we'll hopefully publish on that soon. But I hope everybody who donated at the Southeast Carpet Fest knows their money is being put to good use and we should have some data for publication soon. You know, science kind of works slow sometimes. And so, you know, it's hard to have patience. You want to see results from what you donated, you know, right now. But things like this, you know, with snake viruses, sometimes that work goes a little slow.

And we've had a few issues with the cells and things. And it actually took quite a while to get the cells. Um, they had to work, you know, work out the, the model and that, that took a while. And, you know, obviously that's, that's not an easy, you know, reptile veterinary medicine, I guess you'd say. So, we're excited to see the results from that and hopefully get those out to all the people who donated. So, fun stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, lots of stuff going on. Lots of busy stuff. Headed out on a herb trip tomorrow. I'm excited about that. Going down herping with some, uh, the East coast gang. They're coming out to, to herp a bit. Unfortunately, uh, Eric and Owen couldn't make it out, but we got Keith McPeak, uh, Nick Scaly, uh, or Scaly. I'm not sure how you, sorry, Nick. Um, uh, Don or Lon, Lon Dexler, not Don Lexler, but Lon Dexler. And then a couple others.

I'm trying to think. Matt Minitola, I think, is coming. So, yeah, it should be a good crowd. Got the local boys down in St. George, Chris and Aspen. And, man, those guys are the real deal when it comes to field herping. They spend a lot of time out in the field and find some really cool stuff. I think Aspen's already found a Gila this year and, uh, Chris ran, ran across or found, and he didn't run it over, but he found a DOR liar snake, which is really rare for Southwestern Utah. So excited to get down there, do some herping. Maybe that'll be fun. Yeah. Cool, man. Well, should we get into this? Let's see. Oh, yeah. Let's plug the Facebook page. We put out the Reptile Fight Club Facebook page. So that's available. Go like it, you know, get on there. And we'd like to hear some input, you know, if you if we miss something or, you know, let us know. Yeah. I mean, we, you know, part of this is,

is for it to be interactive and, um, you know, we, we definitely want to bring lively discussions and, and have some of these guests and, and bring, bring some of the science behind it. And, and, uh, you know, in these lively discussions, we kind of would hope that the listeners are sometimes yelling at their computer, like, Hey, you should say this. Oh. And, and if we don't say that, yeah, go to the Facebook page, leave, you know, leave us a comment. And, um, we we've talked about doing some circle back episodes where we readdress issues and we'll bring some of that stuff up. So, you know, like the page, uh, leave comments, uh, and, uh, we, we definitely want to want you all in the fight. Heck yeah. Yeah.

Get involved. Get in on the fight. All right. Well, you know, these first couple episodes, we're kind of testing the waters. We've got, you know, some kind of, you know, a little bit fun topics, not really hard-hitting scientific topics,

but just kind of something that we thought we could, you know, talk about. There's kind of a bit of controversy behind these things. And, you know, we'll get into meteor subjects down the road. We've got a good show lined up for next week talking about interactions between zoos and private keepers. So that should be an interesting take from a couple zookeepers. So that should be fun. So we're planning on doing

that very soon next week or the week after. So and then we've got, you know, a couple other ideas, a lot of ideas. So we just need to get things lined up. So if you want to get in, get in here and fight somebody and fight on a certain topic, let us know too. We can try to make some of the shows, requested shows happen as well. So if you've got an idea for a topic, let us know too. We can try to make some of the shows requested shows happen as well. So if you've got an idea for a topic, uh, feel free to share that on the Facebook page. Yep. All right. Well, you ready to get into it? Let's fight. All right. Um, okay. So today's topic sensationalism,

we're kind of talking about the pros and cons, for and against, you know. So we're going to start out here again with the coin toss, and we'll have Chuck call the coin toss in the air. If he wins the coin toss, he gets to pick which side he defends. If he loses, then I get to pick. All right, you ready? Call it in the air. Here we go.

All right, tails. It's heads. man man see i was wondering if you were using a two-sided tail coin i just wanted to find out the regular quarter regular all right all right all right you're just bad at this coin toss thing man yeah all right well i'm all like you said dang i i, I really, I really don't like sensationalism, so I'm going to be on the con side. I'm going to let you defend it. That's cool. I'll do my best. All right. Do you want to start us out? You want to give us a little, uh, uh, some,

some insight into why you think sensationalism might be a good thing. Sure. Sure. Um, so I think, I mean, obviously I think, uh, you know, sensationalism brings attention, uh, and, and not necessarily all attention is bad intention, uh, attention. Uh, you know, I, I think there's a lot of people out there and you even see them as, you know, um, if they on, and maybe animal planet is old animal planet, let's say old animal planet, you know, you had, you had some of these guys that would go on and the, you know, the, the Steve Irwin's of the world, he was a sensationalist. But, you know, he pushed conservation and education. And so sensationalism, you know, to me can foster a whole bunch of other things that are very positive.

And yeah. Okay. So, you know, obviously Steve Irwin is probably the biggest name and the biggest thing to happen to reptiles for, you know, at least in the public eye for a long time. Now, I think, you know, he had a pretty positive message. I did love those shows, you know, watching, especially because he's in Australia, he's finding Australian animals. I have a soft spot for Australian animals, but I found myself watching and just kind of like, okay, enough with the sensationalism. You know, these animals are cool enough. You don't need to make them so

dramatic to have, have an audience. And I don't know, I, I, I feel it, it, uh, kind of speaks down to the audience. Like it just kind of dumbens the, is that a word? Dumbens? Um, it brings the IQ down a little bit. You know, if you have to like put on some special flashy show to, to make these animals look cool, I'm, I'm all for, you know, nature documentaries and things like that. But I just found like, I think the thing that really tipped it over the edge for me was the whole, he was driving in a truck and he said, we could flip this truck at any minute, you know, like it was some death defying thing to drive on a dirt track. You know, I was like, okay, that's a little bit much, you know, let's tone it back or take it

back a bit. And then, um, so, you know, I, I enjoyed his message, but you know, he could have done just as well, I think without the sensationalism now that energy and that excitement for the animals, I appreciate that. That's fine. Um, but you know, I, I suspect a lot of, a lot of nature shows and, you know, when they're finding a bunch of baby green tree pythons on a, you know, on a tree in the middle of the day and they're just right out in the open, it's like, okay, those are plants, you know, they didn't fucking those, you know, this is just for the, the message and a lot of nature shows do that. And it really bothers me. I don't enjoy that. Um, so that's

kind of my opening statement. I, I just, I don't think it's necessary. I think it kind of brings the whole IQ of the, the program down when you have to make everything so dangerous or flashy or, you know, whatever, like, yeah, just show me the animals, you know? All right. Yeah. Back in your court. Well, I think, you know, I, I think sensationalism, uh, is kind of how humans are wired a little bit. Uh, you know, I mean, in any, in any kind of a paper you're going to write in college, they're going to tell you, you need to have an opening, you know, something to grab somebody's attention. Or, I mean, that's, you know, the whole point of an abstract is really to, you know, as a researcher stumbling through

hundreds of research papers that you sell yourself with that abstract I, I certainly don't want to, you know, uh, equate an abstract to, uh, sensationalism, but, uh, the point, the point I'm making is that people are wired, uh, for sensationalism. They want their attention captured and, um, do some people take it over the line? Yes, of course. Uh, and, and not everybody does sensationalism, uh, right. Um, but I think for the sake of the reach, uh, that you get from sensationalism, if, if you were, if you were less sensationalistic about what you do, more people would kind of be, in my opinion, more ho-hum about it. I think you could look at somewhere like the San Diego Zoo. So they don't do necessarily a lot of sensationalism, but they have such an impeccable name.

And it's a world famous zoo, right? That's, that's, I mean, the world famous San Diego zoo. So, you know, if it was, you know, and, and Hey, you know, the LA zoo is awesome, but it's not the world famous LA zoo. Right. So, you know, and, and because of that and, and, you know, San Diego does tons of great stuff. They have a lot, the huge conservation program there, you know, if you've ever been, or if you haven't been, you should, if you have the opportunity to go, I highly recommend the San Diego zoo. It's one of my favorite places. But yeah, I mean, I think that's a good example of how kind of sensationalism gives reach. Yeah, I mean, I guess I don't see the sensationalistic nature of the San Diego Zoo. They've just kind of done their best to get a nice collection, let that kind of speak for them and bring in the visitors that way. I mean, I guess they maybe had some TV shows that they were featured in more educationally oriented rather than entertainment oriented. And I guess that's where I kind of draw the line between good and bad sensationalism is if you're trying to

sell a show or sell yourself by being crazy with animals. Um, I mean, there's, there's so many examples and I, I think Steve Irwin kind of opened the door for a bunch of idiots to follow. You know, you got like the Turtle Man and shows like that. You got Austin Stevens, you know, just way over the line. Yeah. You know, these guys coming in trying to do the same thing that Steve Irwin did. And you see that in a lot of pet tubers as well. They, they try to just make everything so like exciting or dramatic or whatever. And you're just like, okay,

I think, I think intelligent, you know, normal keepers, um, just get tired of that. I don't, I think there's a need for somebody. We need to go back to the roots of like, uh, Harry Butler. I don't know if you've seen his program, Old school Australian guy that's like calm as the day, just relaxed and talking about nature. And his shows are great. I mean, you know, he shows you the animals. He tells you about them and you learn. And there's no hype. There's no drama.

And it's so refreshing. I don't know. Maybe we've just been without that for so long. You know, he was back in the like eighties or nineties. I remember watching programs on PBS when I was a kid. So they've been around for a while and they look pretty old. You know, it'd be nice to have something. And I guess we do have like planet earth. There's a great example of just a quality nature show, showing you nature, eyeing you without hyper drama or even people in the frame. You just talk showing you nature, awing you without hype or drama, or even people in the frame.

You just talk, you know, got David Attenborough, you know, stalwart, classic, you know, just that voice, you know, lets you know you're watching a quality program and, and it's just chill, shows you the animals. And that's what wows people. That's what draws people into nature. And that's what makes people want to get outside and take a look at nature is, isn't that, and not, you know, the drama. So, um, so, uh, so do you, I'm trying to kind of frame this. Um, I mean, you get like a Jack Hanna, right? Yeah. Going on, you know, late night shows. Sure.

I mean, I would consider Jack Hanna kind of a, he's a sensationalist. And so, you know, I guess we're parsing some things out here. We're talking about sensationalism for the sake of education and conservation but we're we potentially could be talking about sensationalism for the sheer shock value yeah uh of something and and and and just doing something because it is dangerous and doing it in such a way that you get bit in the stomach by a Cobra, you know, filming it. And so, you know, I think, I think it's important to kind of separate those two things out. I definitely think that, you know, sensationalism for educational purposes done by a responsible, you know, and, and, you know, free handling venomous animals.

Should people do that? No. Are there people out there who probably have the skill level to do that? Yes, absolutely. Is it still dangerous and can you get bit doing it? Yeah, absolutely. However, that's different than somebody who isn't adept at, at free handling venomous animals and doesn't know what they're, they're going to get bit, you know, and, and it's just dangerous and it's reckless. And, and it's the side of sensationalism that, you know, makes your argument easy. Yeah. That's, I mean, there's, there's just, there's just too many bad examples. Like you said, you know, there might be a couple out there, but, but again, I mean, there's just too many bad examples. Like you said, there might be a couple out there. But again, I mean, are they just opening the door for worse?

If you have to hype stuff up and make it so entertaining as to draw in the bottom of the barrel or to get great ratings on TV, I guess that's, I guess that's why I, I, I see things like, um, YouTube or some of these independent, um, you know, programs that don't really need sponsors or a huge budget. They can just go out and film stuff and put it up, you know, and you can enjoy it. Um, you know, there's a few out there that I, that I've enjoyed watching that just show the animals. They might talk a little bit about them or pick them up here and there, but like, that's not the whole thing. You know, it's not about picking up a dangerous snake. It's about kind of educating. They're not going to, um, stress out an animal for the purpose of, of ratings. You know what I mean? Like, I guess I just don't think that's necessary to help people appreciate them. And I really think it often has the opposite effect where if you're just hyping up the danger of a venomous snake, you're doing it a disservice. There's some fun YouTube videos out there that are, I think a couple of them are in Australia. There's some with highly venomous snakes that,

you know, have the potential to do harm, but they, they have like several interactions that they film where they walk towards the snake and the snake either takes off away from them. If it goes towards them, it just goes past them to its burrow or whatever. So, you know, they, they show the real nature of the snake. And I would contend that these sensationalists often exaggerate or do disservice to the animals because they're making them more outrageous than they really are. And that's what people, that's the take home message. How many people do you talk to that are deathly afraid of venomous snakes because they think they're out to kill you. I mean, every TV show throughout the history of TV has showed, you know, that dangerous snake just waiting to bite somebody, you know, like they're just there to kill people. And, you know, it couldn't be further from the truth.

And so, you know, we sometimes, I think these wildlife sensationalists do a disservice by hyping that up as well. And they're doing the exact same thing that TV's done to make these animals look bad and look scary or dangerous or, you know, we need to fear them. And that's the whole direction that Animal Planet has now gone and that's kind of after that steve irwin era and all these other morons that showing getting bit or or getting you know showing the the dangerous side of nature and that seems to be all they do anymore is show you all the ways you can get hurt by an animal and it just well yeah you remember the broadcast that that actually just had animals bite people for the pain threshold. Right, right. What? So, I mean, I guess there might be a place in science for that to determine how, you know, but to do it just to entertain people and watch, you know, have people watch you screaming and writhing because it hurts so bad.

Just again, it makes people afraid of animals rather than learn to learn about them and learn to respect them. So, you know, I hear your point. Understand what you're saying. I do think, though, that, you know, when you were younger watching Steve Irwin, um, that, that made you interested and that in that, that interest whether it was over the top at times and, and you, and you now think like, ah, you know, I, it could have, he could have lightened up on that a little bit. Look, look, look at you now. So, I mean, I think that sensationalism done in a educational,

uh, fairly responsibly done way results in perpetuation. So, you know, getting people interested enough in it. And, you know, I mean, part of the reason venomous animals are so fascinating is they are really dangerous. They're not, you know, not necessarily, uh, you know, large, large, dangerous mammals. They're smaller, but I mean, you know, a Cobra can kill an elephant, no problem, you know? Um, and so it's that, that kind of an interesting biological, um, you know, um, evolution that that's happened to them that is, is super interesting. And yeah, they're totally dangerous. And I think that one, I think that we are hardwired to fear things that are dangerous to us. I mean, we're, you know, that's, yeah. So, so, so as a, as a mechanism to key on how people, how, the, the ridiculous, you know, uh, handling of any

animals, but, um, I do think in the long run, you know, it, it leads to the people who get fascinated and, and continue to work with these animals. Yeah. Now, now you didn't listen to my first point. I got hooked by Harry Butler, the calm the calm you know even keeled showing the animals i got hooked by by seeing the animals and and i loved uh the other the other uh show i'd watch all the time was nature and they had reptiles of australia once and i mean they just showed them going and and granted a lot of those were probably plants or you know zoo animals that they took and stuck in a field and put you know a snake next to them and they ate the snake. Okay. Big parenti eating a snake, but it's still stuck with me seeing that parenti, you know, whip that the King Brown around or whatever. Just really a

cool memory for me as a kid watching these programs, but it was the nature that drugged me in, not a personality that drugged me in. And, and I, and I guess, um, if you capitalize on people's fears or that natural instinct to be worried about something that's potentially dangerous, I think that that's what I'm talking about. You do a disservice to the animal. You, you don't really, I mean, you might draw people in, but a lot of times it's for the wrong reason. You know, you draw them in because, ooh, a venomous snake. I bet I could hold that because I'm a macho tough guy. You know, I could do that.

Or adrenaline junkies, you know, people love the danger and, you know, wingsuit flying or something. Anything that could potentially kill you, you know, you kind of get a little bit of a status out of people because, um, most people are entertainment oriented, but I, I just have to go back to that. Anytime you're trying to sell nature by its, um, you know, uh, in entertainment factor, you're doing a disservice. And, uh, I frankly don't think it works. Okay. I mean, that's fair. Okay. So maybe I misspoken and labeled Steve Irwin as your wrong hero, but he is a, I mean, he is a hero to a lot of people. So I think you still see my point despite my misstatement. Most people are more interested in morphs than, than, you know, seeing stuff out in the wild. You know, they, they, they most, they probably think a lot of snakes come from deli cups.

So, you know, there's a lot of, I don't know that you're, you're proving your point here, but you know, I do think there are serious, serious folks out there that have been brought in by Steve Irwin. But I think again, if you're trying to bring people in by that entertainment shock value, you're not bringing in the right crowd or they're not going to be in it for the right reasons, or they're going to have to be reeducated at some point. Yeah. Well, I just, I don't, I don't think we've ever, I've ever seen the sensationalists that

claim that animals come from deli cups, but we're not to the bottom of the barrel yet, I'm sure. So, you know, I mean, I think just to kind of go back on your point, I mean, I understand what you're saying, but I think the problems that we've seen come from sensationalism is from individuals who are just quite frankly, idiots and do, and do things, you know, uh, sensationally for ego value or, or machismo or whatever, you know, that whatever is, is, is driving them. That's not from a, uh, a good place. Uh, and you know, they end up getting hurt and, and they end up making the news. And I would argue that those are the kind of sensationalists that hurt us. And so, again, we kind of have to break this out into categories of sensationalism. And I don't think that you see even the Steve Austin sensationalists or

guys like that, they're not the ones driving the bad look to us. It's, you know, the guy who gets bit by one of his 50 venomous animals and they're all loose throughout his house when the cops come and the news is there and all these things. And, you know, those, and even still, you know, are those the things that's moved the needle? I mean, towards where we start to see legislative reaction to stuff and pull back. I'm not even I'm not even sure any of that is why we're fighting all these bans right now. that HSUS and these anti-pet organizations would want to point to those as examples as why people shouldn't own animals. And in that case, the idiot sensationalist isn't helping anybody. But it's money, it's politics, it's agenda that seems to be driving legislation. And that's never going away. And, and, and, and anytime,

you know, we, we, we see it, they want to point to it, but I don't, I mean, I think anecdotally, anybody could be like, well, yeah, this bad thing happened, but you know, are, are all, are all of the issues that are going on, uh, in, in the Everglades right now because of sensationalists? Well, I would say, show me a program about Burmese pythons that doesn't mention them, you know, hybridizing with retics to become these giant baby eating monsters. And, you know, even the USGS report said that they were going to spread across the United States and they were going to, you know, like all being sensationalism. Well, sure. Yeah. So there are there are a lot of potential, you know, legislative issues that are coming up because these these things have been sensationalized and they continue to, you know, cause problems for us. And so I, you know, I think if, if they had, you know, more, I, even like the,

the snake hunter guys, I think they educated and I think they tell, you know, kind of showed that these things weren't in, in such huge numbers that you could go out and bring a truck, truck, truck load home of Burmese pythons. But, you know, all the issues, if you talk to somebody and ask them about Burmese pythons, they're probably going to tell you some crazy sensationalist thing that they saw on a program on Animal Planet. And that's what I'm talking about is this danger of moving the needle towards entertainment of animals and making that danger stuff, you know, off the the record or what am i trying to say go you know just they move that needle so far yeah and make everything so sensationalist that uh you know the the reality and the truth gets lost and and then you have this whole populace of the united states thinking oh burmese pythons are out there just eating, you know, puppies and children. And they're the most dangerous thing that threatens Florida right now.

Well, and some of that goes to just reptiles being low hanging fruit, right? Yeah. There's feral cats. There's all kinds of stuff. Oh, yeah. Nobody can touch those. But that's a result of international trade. And, you know, I mean, there's, you know, mussels in the Great Lakes that are like non-native and they came over on ships and now they're, you know, just taken over. I mean, there's so many, like an unbelievable number of instances of invasive species that got introduced because of international trade. And, you know, uh, the

problems that we face are many and they're complex. And so rather than deal with them, they get thrown to sensationalism. So, you know, again, the type of sensationalism matters. And even if it's, you know, if it's a private keeper doing dumb stuff, scary story of big snakes, uh, in people's backyards, then, you know, they're going to do that. And that's just, like I said, that's how people are wired. That's how the hook, that's why news is never good news because the bad news is always shocking, you know? Um, and so you're making points for me here. I appreciate it. I got you. No. Well, I mean. Show me some good sensationalism. I want to hear some more good sensationalism. I think, you know, you can sensationalize the plights of some of these animals in ways that that lend themselves to people understanding the issues and the reasons, you know, regionally why these animals or ecologically why these animals are threatened or becoming extinct or hunted or whatever. So, so again, it's the type of sensationalism that you're doing. You can sensationalize things for the good or for the bad.

And, you know, the, the type of opportunities those create are what you make of them. If you want to scare the shit out of people, yeah, you can sensationalize that very easy because reptiles are obviously low-hanging fruit for most everyone else in the world. And it's interesting because people are – when people say like, oh, I'm scared to death of snakes or reptiles. And I, you know, my first question is why? What, did something happen to you? And it's either, yes, I had an encounter with a snake when I was little, or no, I've never had any encounter, but they just scare me to death. Right. So like that idea that there, that there's hardwired fear, um, that's, and, and it's probably biologically based. I, I would dare to say it's probably like epigenetically passed down, um, through, through our DNA, because we, at one point in time, we had to worry about dangerous snakes.

Um, and, and there's still people today that still have to worry about those, but, and I would, I would contend then that, uh, you know, that passion and that excitement for things, um, without being sensational, that's what really is a driving factor in change for change. And, and if you have to sensationalize something to get people to pay attention, it's probably a losing battle. So I think I was listening to Mike Pingleton's podcast. So much Pingle talks about field herping. It's really great if you haven't heard it.

But anyway, he was talking to some guys and they were just kind of talking about their their chasing or trying to find crayfish frogs. Have you ever heard of those? They're just, you know, they're down in the Southeast United States and they're very hard to find. They only come out of their, you know, burrows or whatever to, to breed once a year, you know, when there's heavy rains. And so they talk about, you know, driving down the road and just pouring rain with their windows down there, half of them soaked, the other half's hot because they got the heater jacked up. And, and, you know, they, they talk about how, um, some of their, uh, acquaintances or friends had found some like, Hey, your stupid frogs are out here keeping me awake. And he's like, really? You know, and he, one of the guys goes out and finds them and, you know, makes a new record where they weren't known from before,

you know? So, and, and their excitement and their passion for just, you know, some random frog that most people don't know about got those people excited about the fact that there's something rare in their backyard and that's a cool thing. And so then they start doing things like, Hey, I heard the frog again, or, Oh, I moved this turtle off the road. And they they get excited about reptiles because of somebody's passion, not because they sensationalize it and try to convince them or, you know, show them through their wild antics that these were cool frogs or whatever. But just because they were so excited about them, it got the people that they interacted with excited about them. And I think that's kind of, there's a fine line and it's really easy to cross that line and to, to try to sell animals or try to sell how cool these animals are through sensationalism when really we just need to focus on that passion and excitement for, for the things that we enjoy and, and try to help others see that, um, through just, you know, our own excitement and passion rather than trying to hype them up, either make them more dangerous or more

scary or more rare, more crazy or whatever, you know, we, we, um, get excited about the right things rather than try to sensationalize the craziness. Yeah. Uh i think for for for guys that have a lot of passion naturally like yourself um you know you're always going to naturally draw those other people who probably could care less but hey wait a minute this is you know justin justin was talking about this the other day like oh my gosh let me, let me call them. But because they know that matters to you. Right. Um, and, but, but you're in, and what you're talking about is your passion rubbing off on other people. Right. Yeah. But not everybody is that way. Not everybody is going to do that. So that, so sometimes to make people who are just not dispassionate, but don't have that attachment

to somebody such as yourself, they need to be sometimes led to that. And sensationalizing the plight of an animal is one avenue. I mean, I think you can look at the ivory trade and, and I'm not saying that people have sensationalized, you know, the, the killing of elephants for ivory, but certainly you've seen these dramatic pictures and, and, and, and, you know, I mean, they're, you know, they're shocking and people go, Oh my gosh, that's, that's horrible. And then they find out like, wait, how is all this happening? Wait, villagers, you because they can make money from poachers off of it. And there's all these different societal reasons in cultures and areas that are different from our own that we don't understand. As Americans, we would not understand that, but we don't live there. We don't experience that. We don't live their life. So giving the sensationalistic plight of that animal gives people a reason to care where

they might just go about their day and, you know, hit the Starbucks in the gym and, you know, veg out and watch some senseless TV. I see that, you know, I guess it may be a foreign concept to me because I'm a scientist, you know, I want to see the data. I want to see the figures. I want to get into it and kind of see what really is taking place. And then that will convince me rather than somebody telling me, oh, this is amazing data. Oh, look at this something that's important. I just need to see the data. So, you know, if I see, oh yeah, there's only 300 elephants left. That's, you know, that's, that's enough to get my attention and say, okay, we need to do this rather than seeing, you know, a headless elephant or, you know, some carcass dying on the ground that that's, that's less impactful to me. But again, I guess maybe I've always been

kind of averse to that sensationalism where I just don't know. Maybe you're right. Maybe some people need that. But myself, I guess I'm just more intellectually driven or I don't need the entertainment value or the sensational value to, to let those things kind of hit home. But yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I just feel like we're a, you know, we're a stone's throw out of being, you know, savage animals and, and, you know, we're, our brains are still hunter-gatherer wired. You can see it in our culture. You can see it like we have these great forward-thinking brains where we're like, we can solve these, the short gain versus the long gain, knowing that

the, the, the, the short gain is not going to work out for us. It's just how we're wired. So I think, you know, with that kind of in mind, you, you kind of have to think and, and, and we're apex predators, you know, we're you know, we're, we're predatory animals. So those, those, um, credit, those other predatory type animals, um, appeal to us. And, and, and, and I think additionally to that, you have to think that, um, we're, we're mammals. So where, where we look is to other mammals, and so that sensationalism can sometimes help bridge that that that gap where people aren't gonna see you know the value in a snake because they're just like yeah it's a stupid snake i don't care about that i don't like that's dangerous or oh wow that that that venom actually is a digestive enzyme oh wow oh i i didn't i didn't understand that and oh wow it you know um you

know constrictors don't just squeeze things to death they actually you know cause cardiac arrest and and and you know uh shut down an animal's complete blood supply and they die that way like that's that's that's fascinating so yeah you know again i i i go ahead go ahead i would say that a lot of so many of these sensationalist shows are lacking good information they have a lot of misinformation in them and so while they're trying you know they do pass along a few facts here and there um the i think the overall effect is still in one of negative you know that negatively impacts people. Either they learn wrong information, you know, like those Burmese Python channel shows where they're, you know, telling them that they're going to spread all the way across the country and they're going to eat their babies and puppies or whatever, you know, they'll they'll talk about I don't there there was that that great show

where they went out to try to collect venom from from snakes you know and and it was completely just farcical like like people just pay you to bring in venom or something you know it's completely on just a totally just inaccurate premise first off and and then it and then it could lead to people going out and trying to handle venomous snakes to supply these venom you know places that that don't exist you know they they make their they gather their own venom from captive snakes they're not out gathering and catching wild snakes for venom collection. It's just ridiculous. So I, you know, those, those kinds of things are just too prevalent in these entertainment shows that, that try to sell nature for their entertainment value. They feel like they have to spice them up. Like you got to ride a camel through central Australia and look for,

you know, venomous snakes to make people watch which i think is ridiculous i i knew one of the uh one of my friends was one of the guys who supplied some of the venomous snakes for the show and he had the appropriate uh gear for you know catching wild snakes like the big hoop bags and stuff that keep you well away from the animal well the producers of the show wanted them to instead catch the animals in like pillowcases because the danger value was heightened with a pillowcase versus a hoop. So that, that sensationalism trying to get that danger on film and trying to get people drawn in, get the audience drawn in because they might see somebody get bit. And, and the, you know, these people who are, who are on the show is going, yeah, sure. see somebody get bit. And, and the, you know, these people who

are, who are on the show is going, yeah, sure. I'll do that. Like, what are you thinking? This is not helping the cause at all. Like this is misinformation that's being used for the wrong purpose. And, you know, it's, it's just the sensationalism gone completely off the wire, completely off the rails, just, you know, bad sensationalism. And that's just too prevalent in, in shows, especially dealing, dealing with reptiles. And I just think we need to get past that, get away from that. Don't support those shows, support things that are, you know, nature documentary base that show and just show the animals and give you facts about the animals. Um, I, I love that, um, episode that Rom Whitaker did. Rom, what is it? Rom Whitaker,

is that his name? Right. That does the, um, he works in India with, um, you know, King Cobras and stuff. But anyway, he was, he showed, he sat down by this, uh, um, King Cobra that was up and hooded and just standing there. And he said, you know, this this animal could kill me at any time if it wanted to. But I'm going to show you this is not its nature. He sat down kind of next to it, about five or six feet away where it could easily get to him if it wanted to. And he just sat there and watched it. And over time, the snake settled down and then noticed, you know, there's no danger. He went down and took off in the opposite direction as quickly

as he could, you know, because they understand that humans are, so he so nicely illustrated that. And I, you know, maybe you could say, oh yeah, that's sensationalism, but I think he brought it away from sensationalism. And he said, you know, look, this is not a big, this is not a scary event. This is not a danger, danger, danger. I'm just going to sit next to this king cobra and watch it settle down and move away in a calm fashion. So that is totally sensationalism. Just so we're clear, just so we're clear, that is totally sensationalism. I'm saying he backed away. Sitting next to a hooded cobra and being like, this thing could kill me at any time.

But if I'm not a threat to it, but it's educational sensationalism, which portrays the animal in a positive light, right? And that's what I'm saying. And I think that, again, going back to the issue is there, you know, back when you were young, you know, you saw much more educational sensationalism. Right. And it was. But now you don't see the educational value in it. It's all shock value. It's all scare. It's all because, you know, producers and, and, and, and, uh, production companies, you know, realize that's what sells right now. And, and, um, and I think that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a us as a people issue. Um, and, but, but, you know, sensationalism is not going away. It is a part of our everyday life and, and, and it permeates into reptiles. So I, I, I do agree with you that I don't, I don't agree with the direction that we're going, but we're not going back. I mean, it's just, you know, there's, there's, you know, animal planet is not going off of the air. Um,

people still watch those shows. Do I agree with the direction of them? No, but you know what? Most people don't care what I think about those shows who are watching it. Right. They're watching it because we go ahead. We need to make our voices heard, though. I think we need to spread the word that this is bad news. This is bad for our hobby. This is bad for nature in general.

If everybody thinks snakes are out there, dangerous route to get them, who's going to protect snakes? Who's going to care about snakes? You know, they're just like, well, let them die. Let's just pay for their habitat and then the problem solved. You know, then nobody needs to worry about that anymore. But if we show that they're an integral part of, of our natural ecosystem and they, they have benefits like different drugs and things that they make from the venom. If we, if we can move that away from the sensational into more educational or positive light, you know, we, we avoid those hyped up dramas. We don't watch them.

We watch other stuff. And, you know, I know that's human nature, but it's also, um, it's, it's going to lead to further destruction and just, uh, you know, bad things in the future for us and the animals we enjoy. So let me ask you this. How do you stop the individual sensationalists? So are you advocating for allowing, you know, regulators and lawmakers to come in and regulate that danger? Because that's really what- I'm putting out a plea for people to not support it. That's, you know, that's all you can do is, you know, everybody, everybody has their own vote. They can say, I like this show or I don't like it. If you don't like it, don't, don't watch it.

You know, don't give it a click. Don't, don't tune in or whatever that, that I think there was some, you know, there was that show where they were going to have a guy get swallowed by a Python. You know, it was just ridiculous, stupid stuff. And it failed stuff and it failed hard and it got made fun of and because i think people just said no we're drawing the line this is just too much you know and i think if we keep drawing that line and saying we're not going to put up with this garbage i mean yeah maybe the the majority of the population doesn't know any better and gets into it because it's exciting or, or scary or whatever. But if, as we grow as a community, you know, as more people get

interested in reptiles and that, you know, it's moving, we're, we're, we're growing day by day and kid by kid, you know, anytime somebody gets excited about a snake, you know, even if they see it in maybe the wrong concept up front, if we can help educate those coming up and we can say, hey, we're not going to put up with this sensationalist garbage. We're not going to support it. We're not going to watch it. We're not going to talk about it. You know, we'll just let it let it kind of go by the wayside. And we're going to promote things like, you know, planet earth or blue planet or those things that just show nature for their, I mean, I tell you what, I saw that first opening scene of the, the Galapagos,

uh, snakes that are trying to take out the iguanas. Holy crap. I could not believe I didn't know about that. I'd never seen that was the most incredible nature documentary footage I've ever seen. Maybe we've ever seen. Maybe we'll ever see. It was so phenomenal. And I, and I'm like, how do they top that? You know, that was the coolest sequence of all. And, and, you know, if you need more than that, there's something wrong with you. Right. Well, and I, and I mean, I think that's a, that's a, that was a sensationalistic, you know, piece of video footage. You know, it's not just that animal,

like do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, right. It was the perils and the mortal danger that that animal probably deals with, you know, all the time throughout its life. And it will probably the thing that will probably be the thing that ends it. Right. So again, you know, sensationalism in the right context, uh, in, and we see it all over the place. And I think there's, there's, there's things that are sensationalism that we probably don't even, you know, I don't, I don't think you contextualize that as sensationalistic. But, you know, in in in a certain kind of context, it's totally sensationalistic. Right. But it's educational. It has value. Whereas, you know, showing a feeding video of a snake eating a rat you know that's just really graphic like

not not not so good right well i mean it's not helpful educational but like when you put like uh you know a scorpion and a toad or you know to try to see what will happen or let them battle or whatever yeah those kind of things are just you know nonsense sensationalism but you know if it's a toad hunting a scorpion out in the wild and you're filming it and you're getting that natural history on camera, I, you don't need the sensationalism. You don't need to hype that. It's already an amazing, it's, it's, it's, it's, I guess that's where we're right. Like, well, we're, we're, I think we're, you know, saying the same thing maybe in different ways, but I don't consider that sensationalism because you don't have to sensationalize it. It's already an amazing event. It's already something you don't need to hype or make more dangerous or make more out of it than it already is. So you don't need to sensationalize it. There is no sensationalism needed. It's just, it is what it is. It's nature. It's, it's beautiful. It's, it's, you know, marvelous. And you can just sit back and go, that's cool. That's,

I guess that's the, that's why, why, why is it cool though? Because it draws you in. It makes you see, you know, what's happening in the world around you. Um, it, it brings you knowledge, I guess, is, is the point. And, and you can make your own observation and draw your own conclusions. You know, you can see things that happen and, and it's just really a cool thing. It's just educational. You know, you don't, it's not about, it's not about the danger or the, the, struggle or you know the um the the the the the impending death that could i'll tell you there i'll tell you i got the same thrill watching those uh ograbies how am i pronouncing that waterfall in south africa where the brightly colored lizards are jumping for flies. No danger,

no, no drama. They're just eating their meal or whatever, but they're brilliantly colored. They're, you know, displaying to each other, you know, something that maybe you don't see all the time. And, and actually that makes me appreciate like the, I mean, the, the side blotch lizards of, you know, Southern Utah, they're everywhere. Like if you go out and you don't see a side blotch lizard, you're doing something wrong because they're absolutely everywhere. And they're very common and it's very easy to go, oh, it's just a side blotch lizard. But if you watch those things, they are so brilliantly colored. They're so beautiful.

And I think seeing like that, you know, South African, you know, lizard, the, the, um, jumping for flies or, or displaying those brilliant colors, you think about, well, am I not appreciating things that are in my own backyard? Am I not appreciating things around me? And those are kind of the things I think about, I guess, when I watch these nature documentaries. I should sit and watch a side-blotched lizard because I bet they do some cool stuff too. And, you know, I was actually rewarded with a, uh, you know, some, some mating displays and some, you know, breeding behavior between some side blotch lizards in California. And they were some of the most

beautiful lizards I'd ever seen. They're just small lizards. So they're not as flashy or noticeable, but if you, you know, maybe zoom in with the camera and you can see those blue speckles all over them and the, you know, the colors. You got yellow on them too sometimes. Orange, yellow. Yeah. Yeah. They're just fantastic looking. And so, you know.

They're common. They're around my house. I mean, like I see them all the time. Exactly. And they are. You're right. They're fun. Like I, you know, moving blocks around in my backyard, doing my, I found like three of them.

So just kind of them. So just, just kind of chilling. They're, they're all right. And I know you're right. They're fun. They're fun. The NPR crew talked about their, you know, experience in Australia. You know, they're out looking for stuff and they're not, you know, in one spot they weren't finding a lot, but they sat and watched these tiny little skinks, you know, rummaging through the leaf litter, catching bugs or, or whatever, you know, and, and they appreciated that. And I think if we get past the sensationalism and just get out there and enjoy nature, you know, it doesn't have to necessarily be some exotic or crazy or dangerous or flashy thing. It can just be something in your own backyard. You can

appreciate, you know, I I've, I've gotten into birding lately, you know, I know a lot of reptile people might be going, oh, great. Here goes another one, you know, but, but I, I guess I just have always loved all nature. I can geek out over rocks, you know, looking at a cool, you know, rock structure or something. So I just like nature in general, but you know, getting, uh, I, I saw a few birds out in the front yard that I, and I hadn't seen him this year, you know, so I was really excited to see him come back and just, you know, there's some really cool birds, even the ones that aren't necessarily that flashy or dramatic. Oh, Chuck has left the building. Um, well maybe, uh, that's, uh, the cue for me to declare myself the winner.

No, we'll see if he gets back in here. But we're just over an hour, so it's probably time nature and not because of, you know, sensationalism or just over the top antics to make things appear like they're they you know, like they have to be better than they actually are. Let's let our passion and our drive and our excitement for nature and especially reptiles and amphibians. Let, let's let that speak and let's let other people see that. Um, we, we can do it in the simplest of ways, especially with those we come in, in contact with, we can educate, you know, it's funny because most of the time you tell somebody you like snakes, they tell you about the time they kill the snake or they, you know, and you're like, wait a second. I said, I like them. I didn't want to hear about their untimely demise. So, um, but, but we can,

instead of getting upset or, you know, oh, you know, oh, great. You know, you're a, you're a redneck or whatever. You can maybe educate them, talk to them about why snakes are so fascinating and, and, and really that excitement and passion is contagious. Um, and I would say much more effective and much more, um, real than sensationalism or trying to hype stuff up for, for unnecessary reasons. So that's my, uh, pitch for why sensationalism is, is not needed and, uh, how we, we can, uh, be, be much better off without it. So I'd say, get out there, support, uh, YouTube content or programming on television that, uh, fits with that mold. And I think you're going to have a much better interaction with nature. So that's kind of my closing statement. Looks like Chuck is back, so we'll let him get his kind of closing argument about why sensationalism might be good for us? Well, I mean, I think, you know, we, we've had a really good robust talk tonight about it. And, and, uh, I think, you know, my views are pretty clear on why I think sensationalism has

its place. I've got, you know, two daughters myself and man, it's almost hard to get them out of the house. Uh, and, uh, you know, when I was a little kid, I was out on my bike, uh, all the time. So being outside for me is interesting. And I love nature and, you know, being outside and especially in, you know, San Diego is amazing. And I think that, you know, for guys like us who like to be outside and like nature and, and, and it's easy. Um, this, you know, it's everywhere. You just stop and watch it. And, and you're just like, ah, that is so cool. I didn't notice that. Or, you know, oh, I I'm seeing this or I'm seeing that whatever. Uh, but, but, but again, for the vast majority of people, um, they, they need something to capture

them. They need to be pulled in because they're not, you know, and I'm not saying there's people not out camping and there's people not out in nature, but people don't engage with all of nature. They engage with parts of nature that they identify with. And so if they don't identify with it, sometimes sensationalism done in the right way can be a way of engagement. And, you know, as you stated, and as I agree, we have a big problem with using negative sensationalism to just fill the void and churn the fear and, you know, dumb down the problems that really lur. Um, and, and, you know, as somebody who likes to learn, uh, and, and likes to observe, uh, can definitely admit that, um, you know, education is probably the, the better form of, of valor when it comes to, um, you know, the, the way forward. And, you know, hopefully we're doing that here and, and,

and, uh, the, the really a Python radio network will continue to push the, you know, exactly what we're talking about here. Um, and you know what, if we're ever sensationalistic in, in reptile fight club, I hope we do it in a responsible educational way. Well said my friend, you're definitely a worthy foe. Good discussion. I feel like I, I, I, I feel like I was bested the last time. So I feel like, uh, you know, I, I had to try to do better this time, but again, you, you chose the side this time. So yeah, I don't know. You got to win the coin flip, man. I just don't know you gotta win the coin flip man i just i don't know what to tell you well i thought it was a two two-tailed coin apparently you're you're just a good flipper maybe i need it maybe i need to make sure maybe i need to see what you actually flip

there we'll let you flip the coin next and you can you can uh see how it goes from that from that side but yeah good discussion thanks for uh tuning in and and listening to us uh chat about this tonight and um we're we're excited for upcoming shows we'll also uh you know we talk about passion i think that's kind of the morelia Python Radio Network. That's kind of the bottom line of that whole thing. I think Eric and Owen have kind of always focused on passion for the reptiles and for the things that, you know, that we do in this hobby or industry and, you know, really push that. So again, shout out to Morelia Python Network. We've got Morelli Python Radio, the weekly podcast. Herp History, they've got some cool shows coming up.

Eric told me about one coming up. I'm really excited to listen. So subscribe to Herp History and give that a listen as well. We've got Carpet Python Cliff Notes. If you're getting into carpet pythons, check that out. What else we got, Chuck? You got the list. We got Kluber Corner.

I got you. No worries. We got Student of the Serpent. Eric and Rob again talking about really cool, you know, an in-depth view of a different species. So carpets and coffee Monday at lunchtime, you know, I, every time I'm eating lunch, I pop over there on Mondays and kind of make a few goofy comments and, and then ditch out if I have to get back to work. So check that one out. And it's pretty fun to watch those guys. Filled herping podcast, a little new, they've had an episode out, but that's really exciting. I love field herping and looking forward to hearing more

episodes of, uh, the field herping podcast with Eric and Nipper Reed. Um, the monitor breeding podcast, um, Alan Stevens and Kai fan. So that's, that's another, uh, newer one. So good stuff there. Uh, humans of herpetoculture, Lucas Lee, uh, good stuff. And then the, the last but not least is the Australian herpetoculture podcast. So, um, check them out. Um, keep, keep, uh, checking us out, get your friends. I guess the first rule of reptile fight club is always talk about reptile fight club. We want to get the word out. So let's,

uh, let's get people talking and let's get some interaction on the Facebook page. Um, anything else to add there, Chuck, you, you're,

no, you summed it up wonderfully. All right. Well, we'll, we'll thank you all again for listening and we'll, uh, get ready for another battle next week.

So thanks again for listening to Reptile fight club and we'll catch y'all again soon. Thank you. Bye.