Reptile Fight Club - Sharing herp spots with Chris and Aspen

Episode Date: March 31, 2023

Justin and Chuck tackle the most controversial topics in herpetoculture. The co-hosts or guests take one side of the issue and try to hold their own in a no-holds-barred contest of intellect. Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the topic of sharing herp spots with Chris and Aspen.Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

All right, welcome to another episode of Reptile Fight Club. What's going on? I'm Justin Julander. I've forgotten how to do this. Reptile Fight Club. What's going on? I'm Justin Julander. I've forgotten how to do this. It's been a while. And here with me is Mr. Chuck Poland. My friend! My friend! Your face! I haven't seen your face in forever! You've been foreign countrying and doing all sorts of gallivanting. What is up?

It's a rough job, but somebody's got to do it. Yeah, you look good. You look recharged. You look energized. Is that true? I feel pretty tired. Really? Well, you're hiding it well.

Yeah, coming back to the cold and the snow again. Man, it's not going to let up out here. Really? Yeah. I don't know how it is down south. We've got a couple guests with us tonight. Chris Jensen, Aspen Mayhem. Did I pronounce that right?

It's whatever you want it to be, but that is how I use it, yes. I mean, let's be honest. I use it as Mayhem. Let's be honest. Justin's going to screw it up anyway. If anybody's going to, it'll be Justin. I use it as mayhem. Yeah, let's be honest. Justin's going to screw it up anyway. If anybody's going to, it'll be Justin. I'm just glad I remembered. Like, usually it comes time to say somebody's name, I'm like, oh.

I'm sorry. Yeah. Welcome, guys. Thanks. How's the weather down south? Cold. Wet. Still cold?

Not today. No. Maybe tomorrow. Yeah. I found a side blotch lizard today actually that's a good sign oh dude i'm getting herbs today yeah it's no we're getting close you really see down there that's no you never see them or you really always see them one of the two all right well thanks for coming on guys this should be fun so um let's see we we met what in 2018 2019 when was that probably yeah it's been a while i think it was 2019 was it 2019

i think that's been a while yeah no me and aspen were talking about this just the other day me and him started talking in 2016 and we're like, how the heck has it been that long? We're both regretting it. It's been a hell of a trip. We pointed out he messaged me first, so it's all his fault. I take full fault for that.

So were you guys out herping on your own then and then you kind of joined forces? We didn't really start hardcore herping until we started hanging out together before then it was kind of incidental oh look i found a snake yeah yeah like when you're a teenager and you're out there and you're not sure if you're grabbing a rattlesnake or gopher snake because you don't really know. You haven't learned yet. Yeah. I still do that. I saw Keith McPeak on Facebook saying he was coming to Utah to go down to St. George to herp with you guys.

And I'm like, well, if Keith is coming, then I'm going to go. So I kind of invited myself. You pulled a chuck. I did. Good job. It worked out. Well done. We're glad you came.

That made it fun. It. Good job. Yeah. And then you came and I made it fun. It was not coming. And then I was like, um, can I still come if Keith doesn't come? So, I mean, Chris didn't know me from Adam, but he put me up in his guest bedroom,

you know, and, uh, we did some good herp and found some fun stuff. Got a Gila the first night we were there. So that was a good way to start. That was all your Gila too. Yeah. Yeah. I think we found a Gila, right? Found that Gila, a long nose and some desert tortoises. It was not a bad little outing. That was a good,

good start to the trip for sure. Yeah. I feel feel i feel like if you pull your weight like that finding the gila you probably doing okay uh as far as like you know well me and chris walked right past it and justin goes hey i hear something in the bushes and it was dark by then and he shines his light and goes gila we're like oh nice you're like yeah right yeah sure i'm like guys you want it was cool because you hadn't seen a gila in what like it was a while you said you had a good one yeah that's a long time yeah it is a long time i need to make it a little shorter for the next one but i'm thinking this year is going to be a good year it's's looking a lot of water coming down, so hopefully that'll make for a better herp year. Yeah, last year was terrible. The last three years have been terrible.

Yeah, yeah. Well, we're going to chat about sharing herping spots, so we'll dive into that here soon. But, yeah, well, what's going on new? What do you got going, Chuck? Oh, boy. I mean, I started a new job this week. So, yeah, that's good. I'm now in the environmental office at the same place I was.

So I picked up a physical scientist position in the environmental office. So that's kind of cool. Um, yeah, just letting me, you know, work in my degree a little bit. So, uh, stat sig there. Um, so you know how, you know, how a new job and, you know, figuring everything out and all the, all the, all the newness of it, you know, I'm running around being like, I'm new and I don't know what to do. So, so that's been fun. And, um, like I said, I, I mentioned, uh, just got my rodent order in for the year. Rodents have been crazy expensive. So I put in an online order and got like 700 for the rodents rat just rats just rats i haven't even bought mice so that'll be for another 10 of them yeah like 10

exactly yeah so no it's like 200 i got 200 so um 100 each so plenty of food for for the tracier and the and all the carpets so um everyone should be fat and happy looks like the coastal the outdoor coastal females grab it again um so that's that's good um don't know where the diamonds are it's been rainy and crappy here so they're just they're just yeah i've left them out yeah it's not terribly cold. I mean, it's hit some, it's hit some, some cold spells, but all in all it hasn't been with the rain. Yeah. So the, I mean, I think, I think, yeah, I think, I think, you know, situationally, I think when they get multiple days in a row where it's cool and, and they get the weather event,

uh, they may, they may be ducking out, But, yeah, it doesn't seem like every time. So I'm just kind of waiting for it to warm up. I want to start getting food into them again as their season is going to start here shortly. So hopefully this is our last kind of big major rain event here in Southern California. So we'll see. I mean, it can kind of push, you know, push into. But, you know, it's bloom season out here. So, you know, Anza Borrego is going off for flowers and stuff.

So we're going down for spring break. We're going to Southern California. So they were talking about catching the super bloom. We're trying to figure out the best place to go. And I'm trying to talk them into going to the San Diego zoo. So it should be mega. I mean, it should be mega this year. We've had so much rain and it's, you know, it's been, it's been good for our reservoirs and our drought, but yeah, that the,

the bloom will be fantastic. So you've got to get out there. Well, if you head out there, let me know. I'll try to meet you guys out there. It would be fun just to say hi. For sure, for sure. I don't know how much of a drive it is from Trayton Jennings. It's a little trek, yeah. I mean, I'm sure your kids are much more interested in the beach than they are.

After a Utah winter, they're probably interested in the beach more than... Well, they found out they're probably not going to swim in it because it's, what, 57 degrees or something. Yeah, it's not real warm. That's going to be a little chilly. Yeah. We did jump into the Mediterranean. It was about that temperature. Yeah.

So I just got back from France from a trip for work. So I had a viral conference. I actually presented on snake viruses. So we talked about serpentoviruses, ninoviruses, as they used to be called. So we got some funding from one of the

I think it was the Southeast Carpet Fest. They did a fundraiser and raised like, you know, several thousand dollars for Nino virus research. So we use those funds to do some screening for different antiviral agents and identified three that had pretty good activity and that are commercially available. So we're actually publishing on that, and the paper should come out in another month or two. So we'll distribute that to anybody interested and hopefully take the next steps beyond that and maybe try some of these antivirals in an animal model

and hopefully find a treatment for Nidovirus. That's awesome. Fantastic. Yeah, so you got to have some croissants and talk Nidovirus over some croissants. I didn't do much talking about the poster because

with the poster session, the poster boards were accordioned, and so my poster was kind of facing another poster and then the other guy stood there for the full two hour well for full hours of the two different poster sessions so i had no chance to stand by the poster and see if anybody wanted to talk about it so i talked to a couple people had to kind of like move him over and talk you know yeah you

gotta get a buddy to like call text them and like hey meet me you know like you gotta get a buddy to like call and text them and like hey meet me you know like get him get him out of there for a while he was new so i'd never seen him see it's us new guys that don't know what to do we just fuck it all up yeah i don't know what they're doing that's us that's yeah it was cool so on the front front end of the trip we went down to south the south of france and like I said, jumped in the Mediterranean. We did this hike to the Calanques. It was really a cool little hike that Heidi found. And then we stayed in the Palace of the Popes, like this outbuilding.

So it's like this nice little. Yeah. It was pretty cool. Pretty original architecture and stuff in there. With some new modifications. Of course. Really a cool place to stay. And then went down to Nice and then came back and hit the Roman aqueduct.

That was pretty amazing. Huge structure that ran this river basically across the canyon. So pretty ingenious, those Romans. And then headed up to Leon where the conference was. And then after the conference, we went up to Chamonix in the Alps. Went up a gondola up at about 12,600 feet. Are they as scary as they look? They're imposing, man.

Those things are pretty insane. And then walking upstairs at 12,000, you know, 12,500 feet. Trying to get your hair. You're all dizzy and like, is this thing swaying? Like, am I going to pass out? It's pretty nuts, yeah. Nice. Altitude fun.

And then, you know, Mount Blanc is right there, and that's the highest point in Europe at like 15-something thousand feet. So pretty cool. Yeah, but just majestic. Got another species of reptile species or two. Well, those were invasive. There were some turtles, like, of course, the obligatory red-eared sl there was a master or something out there i need to identify it i don't know my turtles as well as i should but and then uh a wall lizard was uh in uh climbing around on some roman ruins in uh leon so got to see at least a couple of little herps. But then I got 49 birds mostly, so that wouldn't...

Is that the green Italian wall lizard? I don't... I think it was... Well, I wasn't... I looked it up, and then I probably forgot. But I think it was a common wall lizard, but I'm not... I can't remember for sure. Me and Aspen were were and another friend were herping in southern california and there's this one little uh neighborhood you can find italian wall lizards and i was it'd be funny if it was the same species yeah they're all over they're running around in people's front yards so we're parked on in a neighborhood photographing these

people's bushes and they're coming out all wigged out like what are you doing oh we're parked on in a neighborhood photographing these people's bushes and they're coming out all wigged out like what are you doing oh we're here oh and they oh you're here looking for these lizards we go yeah and they're like okay you're you're good all over the place that must totally happen to them too like they're like oh you're just looking for the yeah exactly exactly yeah and where was that you said southern california what And where was that, you said? Southern California. What area was that? Do you remember? No, we don't give away herp spots, Aspen.

Right. That's right. There you go, showing me up. Yeah, it was the common wall lizard, Podarcus muralis. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's it. That's the kind? Nice yeah i think that's it that's the kind nice i think that's yeah yeah we saw four or five so that was kind of cool my grad student spotted the first one so i i didn't even spot the first one she's like hey there's a lizard crawling i'm like oh cool yeah i'll give you a hint that you so you can find them in Southern California and on the East Coast at the larger ports

where they come in and bring in, like, product and stuff from across the sea, and they've hitched rides, and now they've made it onto American soil. So little terrorist lizards coming to take over. Terrorist lizards. Terrorist lizards coming to take over. Terrorist lizards. Terrorist lizards. Taking over the front yards of these poor unsuspecting people. Yeah, they were pretty cool looking. It had some neat pattern.

So my camera stopped transferring pictures to my phone, so now I've got to get them off my computer. You tell me you've got to do it manually for once? Yeah, it's ridiculous. I mean, I might as well just be developing film or something. them off my computer. You're telling me you've got to do it manually for once? Yeah, it's ridiculous. I mean, it's like, I might as well just be developing film or something. Oh, my gosh. Hanging it up. It's torturous, yeah.

Break out the darkroom again. I'm old enough that I had to pay lots of money to get pictures developed, only to go, what the crap is this? I thought that was going to be a much better picture. Good times. I came home to black-headed python eggs. My female laid the day I got back right on my birthday. So that was a nice birthday present there.

She laid eight good eggs, and I promptly most likely screwed them up. So that was a good way to celebrate. Are they still going? They're still going. They haven't gone off yet. They're doing all right. Yes, exactly. We are going to practice the power of positive thought.

There we go. There we go. So I threw in some of those Govee temperature monitors. Nice. Hopefully we can get it. Are they just rando in the are they just like rando in the box or are they like down in the egg mass um they're they're just next to the egg mass i mean gotcha so so i set them up uh based on some um advice from my buddy steve out in australia

um shout out to steve who does the Aussie Wildlife Show podcast. Some good stuff. But he sets them up like with 30% water to like incubation medium by weight. So we usually do like a one to one or, you know, I was thinking, oh, I'll do a dryer. They're blackheads. So I did like nine to 1 or 8 to 1 or something. He's doing 3 to 1, or 0.3 to 1, sorry. There you go. So 30% water. Yeah, I'm not making much sense here.

So a lot drier than I would have expected, but that's how he's hatched him out, and he doesn't have any problems, so I'm like, okay, that's good enough for me. And this is the Steve that lives in the driest county and the driest place of the driest dry in all of Australia, right? Yeah, because I was like, but it's really dry here. And he's like, it's really dry here. He's like, I'm in South Australia. Yeah, so it should hopefully work out. But it's looking good.

Although the temp got a little high there at the start because I turned on the heater and walked away and forgot about it. So I'm a genius. They'll pull through this time. You got this. I sure hope so. Power of positive thought, Jure Winder. Yep, yep.

But I have like a, I've got a, you know, the thermostat, and then I've got a little thermometer sticking in the incubator side. But the thermometer was reading low, so I bumped up the, but now these Govees are saying it's a little high, so it's like just over 89. I had to do a sensor adjustment on my Govees. Oh, really? Yeah. I mean, they were all reading within three degrees of difference of each other.

These have been pretty close. I put one outside the box and one inside the box. I could look at the general temps in the incubator. I had them backwards, though, so I was like, oh, no, it's a little hot. But then I was just the incubator, so by the eggs was all right. Is that a Ranko thermostat you've got there? I noticed the same thing. Yeah, yeah, that's a Ranko.

Those things are pretty solid. Oh, yeah, I've got a Johnson, I think they're A419s or something like that, and the thing's just, it's a freaking tank. Yeah, they keep going. Yeah. Yeah, can't say as much for my, what are the thermostats I bought? Yeah, the spider robotic stuff. I don't get it, man.

It's just you. It's just you. I bought one, too, and it's acting up, too, so I don't get it man it's just you it's just you i bought one too and it's acting up too so i don't know what the hell i have had nothing but good luck with those things really yeah yeah so yeah well i don't know it's good to be home again only to turn around and leave again my kids want to go down to california to see the ocean so hey man all the cool kids are doing it oh yeah that's why it costs so much down there that's right everybody wants to right well everyone's leaving now and making it cost so much everywhere else yeah they keep coming here yeah oh yeah oh yeah we That's for sure. We're seeding the nation with our mouth in California.

Slowly spreading. Yes. That's become the red state pastime. All of the left lanes of your freeways will be occupied with California Tesla drivers that ain't moving for shit. Took a page right out of Kittred. Oh, my God. That was actually the most refreshing thing of France is everybody gets out of the way. Nobody is clogging the passing lane.

It's a beautiful system. Well, I've ridden with you, so that's fair. And King McPeak will not ride with you, so those Frenchies know what's good for them. That's all it is. You knew it. If somebody was coming up, you got out of the way or else they were crawling up over you. You know, they were pretty intense drivers. You were the, I see.

But everybody got out of the way. I did get nabbed by a camera trap. That was kind of a bummer. Like, I see everybody hitting their brakes, and I'm like, oh, I didn't see a cop or anything. And then I see this sign. I can't read French, so I didn't know what it said. But I saw the little, like, text. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. So are you just not going to pay it and you're just going to be a felon the next time you enter the country? Right, just stay out of France. I don't need to go back. You just blew your whole France ticket. Well, the rental company charged me $25 just because I got one, and then they said that the cops would send me the bill, but I haven't seen the bill yet, so hopefully it's not too painful.

I didn't think I was going that fast. They'll have late teeth by the time it gets to you. Yeah, exactly. Did you say that you also scared Keith McPeak with your driving? Oh, you scared Keith McPeak too? Yeah, so

when he came out to Utah this last time, we went up to Zions National Park and we were coming down one of the winding roads and they wanted to get some pictures. So I hurried and pulled off right on the edge. Admittedly, the edge was like a 150-foot cliff off the one side. And Keith's like, you're nuts, or you're crazy, or something like that.

And I was like, I'm just driving how I'd normally drive. But, yeah, I think I gave him a little spook, too. So maybe us Utah drivers uh maybe worth the blame rob was with us and i don't think he was too happy with the way i was driving either when we were road crews and so uh rob stone said that he uh um no it wasn't rob it was ryan young said he about got run off the road in utah when he was through. Might have been one of us. Yeah, he could have been. Out of my way, slowpoke. Well, apparently

when you ride with Keith, he's going to be McFreakin'. McFreakin'. When he's McPeakin' over the edge, he starts to McFreakin'. Another Czechism. More Czech gold.

It's too easy with Keith, you know. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm excited to see Keith again. We're going to be hanging out with him in the fall for the Carpet Fest. Yep. That'll be good. I'm stoked for that.

You guys are going as well? Absolutely. Nice. Nice. The plan right now is actually we're going to be staying with Keith and doing a little herping while we're there too. Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome.

We'll have you find forces. That'll be fun. Yeah. That cat has no tail. Get out of here. Yeah, that's the other one. My cat has no fur. Your cat has no tail.

Alright, well, you guys ready to fight a little? Let's have you... When are we not ready? I've got my notes. You guys are fighting a lot. You have my notes. So I was getting off work and he came to my house to wait for me

and just snooping around, he found my notes and took pictures, so I can't trust anything he says now. work and he he came to my house to wait for me and just snooping around he found my notes and took pictures so i can't trust anything he says now oh man so that's some good espionage yep i've got it i prepared lots of my own notes too so now you got both sides yeah all right well um let's have you guys introduce yourselves kind of say where you fit into herpetoculture, and why it's important to you, and we'll get some fighting going. Who wants to start?

Go ahead, Aspen. Oh, of course. You can go first. All right. I guess I'm Aspen Mahan, as was previously introduced. I don't know if I'd fit into herpetoculture any more than the next guy. I'm just another keeper. Another keeper and herper. Nothing super special.

He's a fellow traciate keeper there. That is true. I do keep a pair of traciate. Yeah. I like it. Yeah. Fingers crossed in the next year or two they're ready to go. Nice.

How long you had them? Shoot, the female I like it. I hope fingers crossed in the next year or two they're ready to go. Nice. How long you had them? Shoot, the female I've had, how long have I had her now, Chris? Like two years? Two and a half, three years. Two and a half, three years now at least, yeah. And then the male I got just last year. So I've had him a little over, well, was it, yeah, a little over a year I think I've had him. They're solid. Yeah. Yeah.'ve had him. They're solid.

Yeah. I love them. They're cool, man. They're so much better than any other scrub. I don't know what it is about them, but they're better. You don't really kind of, like, once you get them in, you get them kind of established, and they start to get out of that really ugly, like wild caught look. You're just like, holy shit.

Once they shed that jungle skin, they glow. You're like, man, they're fucking brown, but they're the coolest brown scrub python I've ever seen. They really are. Nice, that's awesome, dude. That's awesome. Well, if I can help in any way or, you know, let me know. I consider myself in the presence of a god at this point so

the grandmaster you're going to regret offering that help if I don't get eggs this year you may resend that you're a hack I'll keep a pin in it you're sitting on an army though so I think you're going hack. I'll keep a pin in it. You're sitting on an army though,

so I think you're going to be all right. Hope so. Yeah, always that first generation. I mean, captive bred always do better too. Are either of yours captive bred, Aspen? No, both are wild-caught imports. Not a whole lot of those floating around. They were pretty young when they came in?

The male was probably at least a year old. He was a bit bigger. The female was young. The female was pretty young when I got her. The male was older. Nice. And how long have you been doing this stuff? Same answer as most guys.

As long as I was able to walk, I've been picking up snakes and sticking them in my pocket. So I've been in the hobby keeping since probably 2015, I guess, technically. Okay. So cool. All right, Chris, how about you? Um, kind of the same, similar answer as Aspen's. I mean, I, uh, I at one point had a relatively large collection of, uh, the short tail species. Um, but due to some life circumstances, I had to sell off those and kind of took a hiatus from herping since i started that's an addiction you can't really set down but uh just here in the last year or so i started keeping again but i wanted to just try new things so i've picked up a pair of brettles pythons and have some various geckos a uh kukri snake and a hog island boa and uh thoroughly enjoying those and kind of with the short tails it was all racks and tubs and with this stuff i'm trying to for the most part do a more naturalistic enclosure so trying to learn about plants and stuff but mostly killing them but uh plants are i don't have a green thumb but thankfully my girlfriend's better with that stuff than me. Sadly, killing plants is the best way to learn.

It really is. I'm sure. I'm a plant guy, and I cannot even tell you how many plants I've killed in the pursuit of learning to be a plant guy. Yeah. That's good to hear. I'm glad. I don't know if that's reassuring, but it's kind of the truth. I just like that when I kill off certain things, there's always the good old trusty Pothos to fall back on

that you can't kill. Oh, I have. I had some in my frog cage and it didn't last. Oh, no. I have to water it or something. I need to, yeah. All right. Well, so I've witnessed a few of your back and forths, so I think we're in for a treat here. This should be fun. We'll try to keep it contained for you. Yeah. Yeah, you guys have done some pretty awesome herp trips, and that was kind of how you guys came to my attention

because I saw some of your posts on some of the groups, and I started following you and kind of watching, seeing the stuff you were finding. You guys did some pretty amazing herping down there. I mean, it helps to be in a good spot for herping. When you can go day to day, it definitely helps. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Makes it easy. But then you guys put in the time, too.

So you were out there hitting the streets, hitting the hills just about hills, uh, just about every day. It seemed like you're always finding something cool. So, um, I got the, yeah, like I said before, I got the pleasure of herping with you guys and, and kind of getting to know you a little better. And that was a lot of fun. So, um, thanks, thanks for coming on. Let's, uh, we're, we're going to talk about, uh, sharing herb spots, uh, whether or not that's a good idea or, you know, kind of the pros and cons of, of sharing herb spots, you know, what, uh, cause most herpers are pretty tight lipped, but I, I was talking to, uh, well, Chuck and I were actually talking to Jordan Parrott and, and he, he showed us a bunch of herb spots and he's like, look, you know, this stuff's getting paved over faster than we can do much about it, you know, so maybe

people should enjoy it before it's gone kind of attitude about it. So I thought, eh, that'd be a great topic, and then when you guys said you might want to come on and have a little fight here, I thought that'd be a good topic for you guys because you both herb quite a bit, both been around the country a bit and maybe around the world a little fight here. I thought that would be a good topic for you guys because you both herp quite a bit. Both been around the country a bit and maybe around the world a little as well. So I thought that was a fitting topic. But let's go ahead and flip the coin. Who wants to call it?

I'll take heads. Give me heads. Oh, we got tails. I'm sorry, man. My luck. So Chris gets to uh what side of the topic he's on i think we might know what that might be yeah i was gonna say i feel like i feel like he may have laid his hand a little earlier on in there um i'll go ahead and take the side of not sharing herp spots. As would be expected.

All right. And then as the flip winner, you also get to decide if you go first or if Aspen leaves us out. Oh. Aspen, go ahead. All right. Yeah, because I stumble and then you just pick up the crumbs I dropped. As Justin kind of first stated that we know that urban sprawl has kind of taken over and we're losing a lot of good spots, and I'm sure Chuck knows being in Southern California that a new Walmart pops up everywhere.

I mean, we were down there herping two years ago now. Two years ago, we were herping and you're in the back of a Walmart flipping a board looking for these snakes that may not be there come next year. So I think that's a really important topic to start with as well as just the hobby in general. It's always good to embrace future generations. If we're closed-minded and we don't open up to new herpers when they want to learn, when they generally want to figure out how to get into this hobby and a good spot to start with, if we're not up front and helping them out, who's going to carry on the herping legacy once we're gone? So I guess that would be my opening.

Yeah, I would echo that. Like some of the new herp guys that are coming in, I guess the more obvious ones are the ones who have the popular YouTube channels like Noah Fields and what's the catch-it guy's name? Do you see his stuff? But both pretty young guys. But, I mean, the catch-it guy name? Do you see his stuff? But both pretty, you know, pretty young guys. But I mean, the catch it guy, he just went over to the Galapagos and he's filming his herping and adventures over in the Galapagos, which is pretty cool because I haven't made it over there and I'm hoping to at some point in my life.

But, you know, to live vicariously and see some nice footage of some of the animals is pretty cool. I've been to the Galapagos. Have you? Well, was on the boat it was in the navy i touched the water there's the galapagos islands as we sailed by so that was you didn't jump overboard and the biggest tease of your life but anyway i seen them i seen them horrible right but yeah some of these new guys coming up you know if they maybe had a rough start or didn't have a good experience, maybe they wouldn't have done these things. I don't know.

I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I guess Chris can respond to it. Yes, what say you, Chris? What say you, sir? Well, so I think there's pretty much no validity to anything aspen says um just to start off but uh yeah so he he said oh you're we're losing these areas to uh cities and uh yeah really just places being overrun by construction and stuff like that, which in turn means there is less areas to herp. So if you show everyone these rapidly declining areas, then that habitat only gets destroyed further by herpers going and flipping rocks and not knowing proper etiquette or just not caring um and is to go along with that

um we live in a world of instant gratification people are they just want everything handed to them on a silver platter just they want it easy and so there are a lot of new and upcoming herpers and i think they like anybody deserve to be able to go out and herp and enjoy it but you can teach proper herping etiquette and uh essentially help them to be a better herper without showing specific locations where they may have to kind of put in some of the footwork themselves have some of that type 2 fun to uh find their own spots find their own new areas and then i think in turn you they get more out of it it's when you're not just handed something you have to kind of work for it and earn it it's more rewarding in the long run

it's true yeah i guess if they have staying power they're going to stay in it whether or not they they find a bunch of stuff right off the bat or if it's really a passion for them. You know, it's a good point. Yeah, I definitely agree with you to the point where they get more out of it. There's always that reward. I think we all can agree with that, that when you've done the research, you found the spot that you think is going to be good, but you have no clue because you found it on Google Earth, and you go there and you find that target, there's not many feelings better than that. I definitely have to agree with you there. But along with losing habitat, you kind of brought up that... You got that smirk on your face.

You kind of brought up that, that it doesn't necessarily... It definitely matters with proper herping etiquette when it comes to flipping rocks or logs, especially when it comes to more dry environments like southern Utah. Reptiles do rely on that micro habitat for sure. But really, if you think about it, the reptiles didn't just up and move to South America to find a new micro habitat. They simply went and became less detectable in that same area. Most reptiles don't have a real wide ranging area they'll simply go down deeper

underground to find that moisture level so they may not be detectable for another year or two until that micro habitat under those rocks and logs re-establish and i am in no way justifying that it's okay to flip rocks or logs without replacing them, without doing it properly. But I think there is a proper way to do that and teach people and still retain that microhabitat. And along with the same habitat argument, you've got to think about not just necessarily in the U.S. or just with common species, but with more endangered species and perhaps sharing those locations and getting the word out that these endangered species may be there

could potentially garner more attention and garner more protection for that land. And they might be able to set up some sort of area of protection, or maybe we might even be able to police ourselves a little bit better knowing that there are protected species in that said area. Or be policed better. Correct, policed better. Yeah, I mean, there's nothing more frustrating than to go into an area and see, like, cap rocks flipped and stuff like that.

We went into an area in western australia we were looking for wheat belt stimpsons and their habitat was just torn up from you know poachers trying to go in and get a quick buck by collecting these you know popular snakes and so yeah just it really sucks and then it makes it harder to herp that area you have to go further in or find a new spot or whatever. And it's just not cool. Well, do you remember that night we went with Dustin and there was that group that was – I mean, they literally got there just in front of us. And I swear we walked right behind them.

And they were like a hurt group and they didn't replace any of the shit that they overturned i don't know if it was them i think it okay then that's fair you're right yeah i think dustin said that he'd seen some because yeah all the boards were not in the right spot they weren't put back and that's always a bummer when you show up to an area and it's been torn apart especially that soon after that and that's not where i think policing ourselves better comes in play and maybe even taking new people that may not even know what they're doing and teaching them how to do that. Yeah, and I definitely think that there's an onus on people, experienced field herpers, to teach people how to be good stewards of those areas. Because, I mean, honestly, you have stuff like iNaturalist, right? Like, it's out there for everybody, you know?

I mean, some things are obscured, but for the most part, you can kind of figure out. Well, even along the obscured stuff, if you look like at the California garters, the red-sided garters in California, half the records are in the ocean. You only have such a big square area that you can find those records in, so it narrows it down pretty quickly. Yeah, that's for sure. Aspen's doing a really good job so far of arguing my points for me, and I'm enjoying this. I do that for Justin sometimes. Yeah. for me and i'm enjoying this i do that for justin sometimes yeah no i uh i think another

part to it too that uh you we brought up that the there's habitat destruction due to construction and just humans encroaching on wild areas but to that same argument um there's a i'm sure even justin you're even probably aware of it you heard butah enough but there's a I'm sure even Justin you're even probably aware of it you heard of Utah enough but there's a certain canyon or a certain area where a lot of people go to find Utah Mountain Kingsnakes and it became very popular a lot of people

found out about it and there's a very specific area you can stop and go and flip capstones and for a while it was you could go there and pretty much for sure find one. And then one day someone went up and took some photos of the same rock outcrop where you could find them, and the rocks were just, the whole rock formation was just torn apart.

Rocks were on the ground. And I think after that, people don't find them there like they used to. They've had to move on to different areas where they can find better habitat again, and it kind of ruins it for the people that did put in the work, who did find that place, that liked to frequent it and knew to respect the area. And because it was overshared, that habitat destruction came about because of the herpers themselves. Yeah, like I said, that's the most frustrating thing but i i wonder too like i mean sometimes you know places get herped out but at the same time you know as as time goes on people kind of forget about it or or they think oh, it's all fished out. And so people stop going there and, you know, eventually it might restore it.

It might restore it. I went with Brian Eager and we went out to try to find this den out in Grantsville area that had been like a historical spot, you know, where they've done a lot of publications, a lot of studies out there. But the locals would go out there to kill rattlesnakes because it was like a great spot for rattlesnakes. Cause they're all, you know, there's a high vernacular out there. And we actually found the den that they were publishing on it back in the fifties or sixties or whatever, and, and found that spot. And I mean, we've, we flipped probably, you know, 30 yellow bellied racers in one afternoon.

They were just all, they were like the first ones to emerge. It was a little earlier in the spring kind of a scenario, but, um, you know, and, and Brian actually went back and I think he got a publication in her review going back with some of the original researchers that published on that area. So that was kind of cool. But, uh, yeah, I think, um, sometimes is it, is it a good thing to have some spots that where everybody knows to go? And so people just go there and, you know, you kind of avoid having them discover new places. I guess I, I kind of liken it to the canyoneering folks they would set up routes that were for everybody to use but then they'd have their secret routes where they could do that you know is there is there a place where you can have both you know spots where you tell people about but then you

also have your kind of quiet spots the wanker sites yeah exactly i uh i think it's uh species dependent in that one it depends on what the the range is and how sensitive that species is. For example, I can only imagine you're only talking about Great Basin rattlesnakes, which a lot of people really like them and will travel far to come and see them, but I don't know if I'd exactly call them sensitive or rare or that their habitat range is really restricted to a very specific microhabitat or anything. They tend to do quite well across their range where they're found. Whereas take Prici for example

the twin spot rattlesnake if you had everyone and their dogs going to find those they've actually restricted some areas you can't even go there because they're trying to protect the species now so some of the best habitat you used to be able to go and look for them

now you're not supposed to go there at all because it was getting overworked and the species was getting harassed and overcollected, well, illegally collected since they're protected. But yeah, so species dependent. I agree 100% when it comes to species dependent on that. Here in southern Utah, we're pretty tight-lipped about spots where we found to be very good for Gila monsters, just for that fact that not only are we concerned that this few that are in that area might be collected, but it's a sensitive species as well in that they are known to change burrows entirely, or at least attempt to, if they feel like their winter den or the area that they've selected to hide in is no longer secure if someone's been bothering them and taking pictures

of them every single day uh they they've been known to move and attempt to find a new burrow and if that happens in june it might not find a new burrow so So I would definitely hand that towards Chris and that depending on the species, yes, I think some discretion is perfectly warranted. Everybody deserves that photo, right Aspen? Everyone should get a photo of it. They don't need to put in the work. Everyone should just get to go photograph them. Justin got one. I just read about that.

Some photographers that were chasing down a barn owl out in the Bear River Migratory Bird Refuge. And they were trying to get pictures of it flying. So they kept scaring it up out of the grass and making it fly. And eventually the owl just died. It just rolled on them. Because they harassed it so much. up out of the grass and making it fly and eventually the owl just died like it just wow rolled on them um because they harassed it so much you know and it's like people don't don't have respect for the animal they just want to get their pictures you know and so that can be uh yeah not the best situation wankers yeah similar to the gila situation but um you know that speaking

that big group that rolled through the area, so we were driving to this specific spot. I think it's fairly well-known, but it still is pretty productive. And so we were driving in the dark, and we went to turn on to the turnoff to go down to this canyon, and all of a sudden these two big vans turned in front of us. It was like a caravan. sudden this big these two big vans pulled you know turned in front of us like a caravan it wasn't it wasn't like two big vans it was like a fucking caravan and they yeah and so and we're like oh great maybe they're just you know hopefully they're just camping down

here or something there's a no they went right to the spot parked you know and and all these guys get out with their snake hooks and somebody's leading a tour to that spot. So it's not exactly secret. And this is the spot where they weren't replacing the boards. So obviously somebody's going in there and just flipping boards and not caring about putting them back where they need to go. But we actually found a— I was going to say they didn't find shit, but we did after they left. Well, it just shows who were the better herpers.

That's what we said. We were at a club, and they didn't even realize we were standing around, you know, photographing something. We were kind of playing it cool, like wait until they leave or wait until they go. We've been there, haven't we, Chris? I'm sure. Hell yeah. Yeah.

So, you know, spots like that that like like i said they're still productive and you still find stuff there you know so i don't know yeah i'll uh i'll show someone how to find an american bullfrog any day they want yeah red red eared slider any day you want hit me up i'll show you where to find them i want to know where to find those soft shells down there in St. George. Yeah, soft shells. You see those very often? Come to the wastewater plant. Yeah.

Is that an everybody's got to start somewhere reptile? Well, those are invasive species. Right, I get it. Yeah. They're actually fairly difficult. Listen, Jolinder, don't screw with my comedic humor. Just a quick deviation. When me and Chris were trying to find our first one, we knew exactly where they were.

Thank you to iNat, basically, and word of mouth. And we had gone maybe three or four times trying to photograph them at this certain pond. And we couldn't find them. We thought we saw them out in the middle of the pond but we didn't have good lenses couldn't see him and we show up one day and there's this little lady and she's throwing bread to the ducks and two of these softshell turtles just float up and swim right out and start munching on the bread and we're like that's all it took a little bit of bread all right i'm gonna go feed the turtles next time now you you know. You're like, thanks old lady, you're awesome. We told her like, oh, this is what we were looking for. Never

learn a herping trick from a nice old lady. Little old lady feeding ducks. Right along with INAT though, an argument could be made that INAT gives out the majority of the quote unquote good locations already. Even when

they're obscured, once you get a cluster, it gives you that area. And from there, if you're any good at researching, you can usually hone in on that spot fairly quickly. So I feel like the argument could be made that even if you don't share the spots by sharing your records on iNaturalist is sharing your spots so have you ever posted anything on iNat Chris go ahead answer the question Chris iNat is an awesome resource. And it is really, I'll be the first to admit, it's a great place to go if you want to research a species. But I think, again, for me, that is part of it. I think everyone deserves to be able to go out and herp and try and find different species. But I would argue that doing the research on your own,

even if that means pulling up an app like iNaturalist, learning the name, where to, because you have to at least have a start. Like if you're like, oh, I want to look up sidewinders, you've got to be able to look in there. And if you're looking for sidewinders in, uh, South America, you're probably not going to be super lucky, but, uh, you, you have to put in that, that, uh, research to at least get yourself into the right area. And after that, I mean,

sure. It's a resource just as much as a range map in a book or going online. And I think that does play back to the herpers have to have a certain level of etiquette in how they go about herping. If they are going to put records into a database, they, in my opinion, should for those more sensitive species either mark them private or at the very least obscured rather than giving the exact GPS coordinate for anybody to go in and just find. Yeah. Yeah, some are automatically obscured, right? Like if it's a certain...

Yep. I know desert tortoises... Any protected or I think even threatened species might be obscured. Yeah. Yeah. So that's one nice thing. I think I know, I mean, it is hard

work to try to find new spots you know, but it definitely like you said, it's more rewarding when you actually do find them, when you've done your own research and kind of hit a new area where they're not really known from. And i guess with i naturalist that gets a little harder but you know i think you know that's how we wind up with range

extensions or things people go i wonder if they're here you know this is similar habitat and uh to where they're found elsewhere so yeah i know a bunch of the utah herpers will go out and find new milk snake localities and stuff, which is exciting. Definitely. Yeah. Go ahead. No, no. I was just going to make another point of essentially when we – I'd like to think we've all been given locations at some point or another, especially when you're researching a new area.

And again, research comes with the hobby, comes with going out and finding these spots. At least I know I have. I've reached out to people I know that live in that area and not necessarily asked for spots, but just general advice. And usually people are usually pretty open when they can see that they know you're trying, if they know you, they're usually willing to give you at least a spot or some information leading to a spot. I guess my question would be, at what point do you trust that person to give them location? Because I feel like we've all been given spots before to areas that were fairly difficult to herp.

Yeah, that is helpful. I mean, yeah, that's nice to be entrusted with something. And, you know, hopefully you can earn that trust or respect, you know, and not share it. I guess that kind of goes along with the herper etiquette. If somebody does show you a spot, that's theirs to give, not yours to give on. But I think a lot of people just get excited, and they want to make it look like they're the experts or they know what they're doing, and so then they share it further because they're trying to show off. So that's a hard thing to get around human nature.

No, and I do think that that's another aspect we haven't touched on that is a really difficult part of herping is not everyone herps for the same reasons. Some people herp just purely for the love of the reptiles. They just want to go. They want to see it in the wild. They want to learn about it, take pictures of it. Um, and that's all that they really care about. That's what they want to do. But on that flip side, you also have people that all that they want to do is go out and collect those animals. They want to find them, uh, capture them, take them home,

and put them in a box, and that's their new pet. And that is a difficult thing, because I had a time where I went out with a friend, and I'm going to keep this as obscure as I can. I went out with a friend looking for a species that I had never seen in the wild before. And this friend that I went with is really good at finding the species.

So I was just excited to go out with him. And out of the blue, he invited another friend that I didn't know was coming. And so we all split up, and we're going on this hike looking for it. We're all within earshot for the most part, but not right next to each other. And all of a sudden, as the day goes on, this one friend of his comes running up to us and pulls this reptile out of a bag in his backpack he's like guys i found it look here it is like you can take your picture now

which for me totally defeated the purpose like i want to be i mean i don't have to be the one to spot it but i don't want you to come running a half mile up the trail to me to pull it out of a bag and then he just uh went from there to put it back in his bag and he took it home and who knows whatever happened with it and so for for someone that's just out there to to enjoy nature and enjoy the reptiles in their habitats it's always a bummer when you know that some of these areas that um maybe these reptiles aren't as easy to find in or their habitats more specific and isn't as common there, that people are collecting them out of the wild and limiting your chances to see them is always a bummer.

For sure, yeah. Some of those spots where they used to be really, like you were saying, they used to be really easy to find there and then all of a sudden you can never find them again because they've been over-collected. Our buddy Dustin Grahn, he has some locality animals and he's bred them and he's going to hatch out the eggs and take them back to and release them kind of in that same area where he found them so he can help the, or at least put back, you know, what they would have maybe contributed to that area. So, you know, it's kind of a cool thing. Yeah, that's cool. If you're going to, you know, if you're going to collect them, be, be responsible. I want you to know I hate you for making me argue at this point, Chris. I'm going to do the best I can here.

If you want me to argue it for you, I can because I can think of some good points for it. No, I'm sure you already read my points. Yeah, that's fair. Those are my notes. When you look at collecting, I'm sure there are certain areas that have been hit hard, yes. Mainly those most common spots, the spots on iNaturalist, the spots that, like you said, the huge group rolls through with 13 guys and they all have a bag and a hook in hand. I'm sure those spots get hard or get hit hard um but in a lot of these areas human development isn't far away which means roads and

how many times have we road cruised dors at night and we get 13 dors and a single live snake you know um so it makes you wonder obviously when you take a snake out of that wild, that snake is dead to the wild. It would have been just as good as if it got run over or you put it in your pocket. So really how many people out there are putting snakes in their pocket and taking them home versus the number that are getting hit by cars every night or eaten by hawks and coyotes. I would argue that a fair number more fall victim to cars and natural predation versus being collected. Granted, there are some areas that definitely suffer due to overcollection, like you said with bryci. That's definitely a big threat to areas like that. Well, and then Aspen, you probably know even the name of the species.

I can't remember it off the top of my head, so maybe you'll help my argument and remind me of the name. But me and one of our mutual friends, Joey Mugleston, were recently talking about a species of monitor lizard that it's an island species and it can no longer be found on this island because it was over collected to the point that they now no longer exist on the island they were collected to extinction in their range i can't remember the name of the species but they you can find them in captivity which is great but you can't see them in their wild habitat anymore i can't think of the species off the top of my head

you're useless talking about i do wonder though because you know like like functional extinction versus true extinction because you know it seems like there's all these these animals that go functionally extinct and then you know 10 years down the line they find some and I wonder if that's kind of like Aspen's point of like you know when you disturb a microhabitat that animal just goes you know deeper underground or finds or maybe they're just going to places where you know and this is this is something that made me think of it is when when Justin and I were herping with Jordan Parrott, we did a lot of road cruising. But you just can't be up in those mountains and not look at all of that habitat that is so far from a road and so far from any person.

And, you know, if they're crossing the road, they're out there in those mountains where there's absolutely nobody. So what does that true population number look like? in the road they're out there in the those mountains where there's absolutely nobody so what is that what is that true population number look like you know what i mean and i think you take like the whole wild caught argument and daniel natusha's research of versus you know like what what wild collection does versus habitat destruction and so there's still habitat is it really i don't know that there's there's a lot there but um i guess i guess my i guess my point is we we talk about that decline but what does that really look like that's a good point um often burgeye i think is the one you're thinking of i think that's what you're thinking of i think i could be so someone's

probably yelling through their phone right now saying I'm wrong, but I think you're talking about the Oscar bird guy. If it helps any, I know they have some pretty blue coloration in the wild due to something they eat, and then in captivity they lose it. But I'm not the monitor expert here. I'll leave that to you. I'm definitely not. I still don't own any at the moment.

You know, I really agree with Chuck's point. And to kind of tack on to that, I think importation and sharing secret spots with importation is a whole different subject with do they really care about that species? Or do they just care about keeping it secret because that's their paycheck, that's what feeds their families. And it may be different if they cared more just about that species and they maybe wanted to share it with their friends. But I do agree that there is a problem with importation sometimes and dwindling individuals. I mean, you look at like Macraeae, the monitor, the blue tree monitor. They're from a very, most monitors from those chain of islands

are limited to one or two islands. And you get one or two collectors that go out there to collect and import them. And the next thing you know, you're down to a handful of species that, like Chuck said, may end up going down deeper underground or hiding or trying to get away from that stress of being collected. So that's definitely a point there. And I definitely think island species, you know, may be an exception to that, to kind of Daniel and Latusha's rule, just because their, you know, their range is limited. And so, you know, they can only go so far to kind of escape any type of pressure like

that. Right. Although, look at Beox. I mean, Beox green tree pythons, they keep bringing us in by the bucket load. Yeah. And they don't seem to slow down much. What about the Kofi'au Island, you know, stuff like that? You don't see that stuff, you know.

So, you know, I think, again, like some of it is like maybe, yeah, you're not capturing the specific pressure or whatever is acting on but but certainly island island and mainland species you know probably are are separate case by case examples they agree for sure there i always thought you know that would be an interesting uh thing to try to kind of flood the market for some of these things where they're locally abundant but they they're, I guess, functionally rare and like maybe like a shingleback, right? In Australia, they're like a hundred dollar lizard. Over here, they're a $10,000 lizard. And so, you know, there's a lot of impetus to smuggle or to, you know, to try to get them out of the country. And so you wonder if they just exported, you know, a couple of hundred animals or a couple thousand animals

and just flooded the market, so to say, if that would satisfy it and slow that illegal collection down. Because, I don't know, man, I guess there was an example where I went to an island, a rotten nest island off the coast of Western Australia, and was looking for this endemic shingleback on rotten nest island. It's a subspecies. And we saw one, and I thought, oh, you know, we found one, we'll see more, because they're all over this island. We didn't see any more. and then come to find out some guy had gotten caught at the border with like 30 of them in his you know underwear oh man that's that's where they all went yeah exactly that's a bummer before i was there or something so it's yeah kind of that great reason not to share spots yeah of course of course Way to tie it all together. We're just like, thank you. I think that's the problem, though, is like an island, you know.

Yeah. If they're, if they, and, you know, a lot of people do their research and read papers and stuff, so when an animal's described, they, you know, buy a plane ticket, go to that island, and start collecting before they, you know, have even really been described and and uh so so it's it's a it's a problem um i don't know that i had heard that somebody was talking about that where if they discovered a new species they would just collect a bunch of them breed the heck out of them and then just flood the market at the same time that they published where they were found. Yeah, I've heard of that before.

So they could stop people from going there just to collect them. There would be no financial impetus to do so. I don't know. It's a complex problem for sure. Look at Felsoma clemori, Neon Dake Echoes. And I'm only going to bring this up because I really want to brag about it. Oh my word. I actually just bred them. They just hatch Echoes, and I'm only going to bring this up because I really want to brag about it. Oh, my Lord. I actually just bred them. They just hatched out today, and I'm excited about it.

Nice. But they were discovered in, I think, 1990 in Madagascar from two tiny little endemic pockets off the west coast of Madagascar. And they imported, I think, 14 individuals. And nowadays you can find them a lot of places. They're fairly common in the hobby and they're not expensive. So there's not really a desire to go out, fly all the way to Madagascar and smuggle these tiny little geckos back in. But I had to bring it up because I was proud of it.

That's awesome. but little had to, I had to bring it up cause I was proud of it. Yeah. I remember following, uh, so we were herping West Texas and, and we were, we kept running into the same group in this, in all the spots we were going to. And the difference between us and them is they had a van full of buckets and they were collecting everything they found. And so like they, they got to an area right before we did and found, like, a rock rattlesnake, a lepidus, and found a bunch of other stuff, a copperhead.

And the guy was actually bragging about how, you know, he sees, like, 50 of them in his backyard in, you know, East Texas, and they look exactly the same as these West Texas ones. And we're like, well, what are you collecting it for? Why? It was like a $30 animal for him. And that's all he was looking at. It was dollar signs.

I think we probably interrupted their collection within a state park because we rolled up behind them. And they had found this really cool Central Texas whipsnake. Really neat banded pattern. And we were convinced they were just going to collect it. If we wouldn't have come up, they probably would have taken it home. But then we stayed with it and took pictures and released it, so they didn't get that one. Good.

Yeah, and then they left right after we got there, too. They didn't even really go up the trail or anything. So, yeah, it was kind of obnoxious. They knew Justin would have kicked their ass. That's what I was going to say. You should have just beat the shit out of them and just released them all back. Taken their buckets and gone home. What they were doing was legal.

You can collect as long as you're along the road or whatever. So what they were doing was perfectly legal so i don't know i just don't like but and then like like you were saying before like the areas where roads go there's so much more habitat beyond that road and you know so they're just impacting a tiny fraction of the available population and if you go on private land in texas you're probably going to get shot anyway so you know i don't think it's worth it to you go on private land in Texas, you're probably going to get shot. I don't think it's worth it to go on the private land to collect stuff.

Yeah, I wouldn't recommend going on private land in Texas, even to just look for anything. Texas isn't a place you want to get caught on the wrong side of the fence. Yep, they take their private land seriously out there. isn't a place you want to get caught on the wrong side of the fence. Right. Yep. They take their private land seriously out there.

Yeah, they tend to. You can't be poking around for wall lizards in somebody's front yard in Texas. That only happens in the state. No, it's different. Yep. Well, any other topics coming to mind? You got something? Axolotls. Okay.

Oh, no. No, I just... No. No, it was a last-ditch attempt, scratching at the bottom of the barrel, and Chris apparently didn't know. I didn't know it either until I was researching, and Chris read my notes, and I taught him something from it.

But I think most of us know that axolotls were functionally extinct, basically. They come from a little tiny bit in Mexico. And collecting them actually essentially preserved the species here in captivity. Whether they really preserved it or not is to be debated, though, because they were mixed with tiger salamanders. So who knows if it actually really has saved them. But, hey, we still have them, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, no, I...

Oh, we lost you. Oh, boy, we lost you, Chris. All of a sudden we can't lost you. Oh, boy. We lost you, Chris. All of a sudden, we can't hear you. No, so this is. There he is. There he goes. Oh, sorry about that.

No, I'm going to speak just more generally, really, than arguing aside, which is that herping definitely seems to have climbed in popularity over the last 10, 15 years. You run into people more often. I think social media has really upped that where people are able to share their finds and their photographs and it gets people excited and other people want to find. And I actually think that it is really cool that you're able to reach out to people who live in areas of the world that you've never been. Maybe you're flying to Australia and you're going to spend two weeks there. And if you didn't have some sort of a connection or even just that social media to help you find things, you wouldn't get the same experience.

I'm sure you'd still have a great time. And I'll throw in for my argument, I definitely don't think you should ever share really sensitive spots for sensitive species that could suffer from it. But I think there's a level within herping where you can responsibly share information with people that you know are going well you hope are going to be respectful of the wildlife and the areas they live in and i think that that's a really cool thing that people are able to do that and experience these animals in the wild. Because I think we can all agree that when you go and see an animal in the wild, especially if it's something you keep, it grows your appreciation for them.

You learn about them and it changes your view on how you keep them in captivity a lot of the time. So I would say that that's a really good thing, and it's really cool. And I'm not going to lie, as much as I'm saying I don't like sharing spots, it's really cool when people reach out and say, hey, I'm coming to Utah. I want to find this thing. What can I do? What time of year? Whatever, right?

Now when someone messages me and says, will you show me that Gila den, I'm going to tell them to bugger off and leave me alone. But no, if it's done respectfully and with respect for the wildlife, it is a really cool hobby to be a part of. So that's as much as I'll say to sort of help Aspen side. Just to echo what Chris said, basically, we kind of live in a day and age that it's unprecedented, really. It's easier than ever before to travel across the world, to visit places we've never been to hurt places that weren't

possible to hurt or not very easily possible to hurt um ever before and do your research go out there get outside look for these species but do your research we have tons of materials on our hands buy a guidebook utilize i naturalist reach out to people you might know or people that you've heard of out in the areas. Don't necessarily ask for locations. Don't be upset if they don't give you spots, but be willing to take any advice they give you and put that towards your research. In the end, it's definitely going to be much more rewarding when you find those species. To benefit Chris's point, clearly.

It definitely is far more rewarding when you research and when you've put in all this time, blood, sweat, tears, and everything comes together and you find that price I sitting out on top of a rock. It's a pretty great moment so just do it

respectfully and responsibly yeah and just one more thing on that uh aspen's not kidding about well two things aspen's not kidding about the blood part of the the whole thing i know he's had his fair share of uh cho cactus and is stabbed into his body. I won't even say it. Looking for reptiles. Now that's a good time. Yes, everyone loves Cholla. But no, I'll say that right now.

I welcome anybody listening that if you just want to learn proper herping etiquette, I may not have all the answers, but I will share every bit of proper herping etiquette that may not have all the answers but i will share every bit of proper herping etiquette that i know to try and help you to to do things in the right way if you're new in learning and want to get out and maybe don't know things about flipping rocks and putting uh pieces of habitat back where they should be stuff like that i let's i'm always happy to answer those questions let's get a few of those out there i mean just what what kind of you know maybe your top three uh pet peeves or whatever when when somebody goes out herping and does things you know what what what shouldn't they do i guess don't show spots wow there you go number one top of the list

uh i think number one is just putting stuff back the way you found it leave no trace you know the classic motto um if you flip a rock and it's different depending on where you hurt but especially here in the west where in the summertime micro habitat and moisture is so important to certain species most species species. If you flip a rock, put it back. I don't care if it's heavy. You've got to understand if you lift a heavy rock, you have to put that rock back as it sat. And we especially here in Utah like to kick the dirt in around that edge

and form a seal again because if sometimes, a lot of times, if you don't replace that seal within two or three days in 100-degree weather, that seal is gone and that rock is useless for the rest of the season. So that's a big one. Yep, and I would also urge people to learn the laws of wherever they're going. Because laws are different from state to state, too. In some states, you can go and collect certain species legally or with a permit um and then in other places um depending on the species it may

the laws may even be so strict to say that you're not even supposed to manipulate the wildlife for the for a photograph um they don't want you to handle them they so yeah so learn your laws and try and respect those to the best of your ability because um as always um the hobby reptile hobby in general is always uh under attack and you don't want to give them more reasons to not like us for doing things with reptiles so um, um, learn your laws, respect them to the best of your ability. And, uh, even if some of those laws are really annoying or frustrating or, uh, if there's private property that, you know, you can go find something on, but you're not welcome on it. Well, that's a, an unfortunate thing. Hopefully you can warm up the

owner of the private property to let you on it. Hear, hear. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, uh, I, I heard a story, uh, again from Dustin of one of his buddies that was out looking for price. I, and he was not looking to collect it or anything like that. Just wanted to get pictures of it. And he and a couple of friends were looking around and he was up on a hillside and his buddies were down in the valley, and he found a price eye, and he grabbed it and held it up and said, I got a price eye. And all of a sudden, a Fish and Wildlife officer walked out of the bushes and said, Come here, son.

They're watching. They're always watching. $5,000 fine. So that was an expensive lesson to learn. We were up there in a spot that it was a spot, and we were up there looking for snakes and whatnot, and we just

recently found a club, and we photographed it and whatnot, and five minutes down the trail we came across a group of birders, and they were like, oh, have you seen any of the birds? And we're like, oh, yeah, we saw this and that. Have you guys seen any snakes? And they're like, oh, yada, yada.

And we tell them, oh, we just saw a rattlesnake just up the trail. It was a little claw ride. And he goes, oh, do you have it with you? Can I see it? Well, no, of course I don't have it. But I'm 90% sure he had a badge under his shirt going, let's see it. So definitely obey the laws and just be cautious and mindful of that. For sure.

Yeah, no booby twaps, well, not recently, last year I made a trip down to Arizona and went to a fairly well-known spot looking for some of the montane rattlesnake species. And I'm looking around. I'm looking by these fallen logs and trees and these rock outcrops. And all of a sudden, I'm staring dead in the face a GoPro, or not a GoPro, a trail camera, and it was pointing right at a spot where people find them a lot of the time, and I'm like, oh, yep, they're always watching. It was funny because it was really well blended in. I didn't know it was there until I was staring right at it,

which is often how I find rattlesnakes too. I would say it's almost like it was a Cerberus. Cerberus, yeah yeah that was a fun time well and they'll uh put out uh decoys as well so yeah they do i hear there was a fishing wildlife guy that had a gila monster and he'd release it onto the road when you know some herpers were driving by and and just wait there for them to pick it up or touch it or have a bag or something on them, and then he'd nab them. So even if they weren't intending to collect, they just wanted to get it off the road,

they interfered with it. Wow, I guess there's no such thing as entrapment in wildlife, huh? No joke. Yeah, you've got to watch yourself when you're out there. You don't want to be doing such stupid things. They don't play games. Get that five grand fine. I don't know about you guys, but I don't think I could afford that very well.

I'd be in trouble. Yeah, no. Rather put that for a trip. It's funny because on that same Arizona trip, we cruised a dead Gila monster in the road. And the person I was with, it was their first time in that area. And they're like, oh, maybe we should move the body off the road. And I was like, nope, don't touch it. Just because it was one of those.

I'm like, I don't know, maybe DOR had a dead Gila in the freezer. And they thawed it out and threw it in the road and are waiting for me to move it. Because even moving the dead ones can get you a fine. So even though I wanted to move it off the road, it was, nope, you're not supposed to touch them, so don't touch them. Yeah, follow the laws. That's a good rule. But, yeah, replacing rocks, replacing, I mean, just for the fact that people enjoying the landscape

don't want to see some ugly scar of a flipped rock. You know, that just looks bad. So if you appreciate the animals, you should also appreciate their habitat and, you know, understand those things. Also, I think, you know, handling or grabbing an animal a lot of times will alter its, like you said, you know, with the Gila, if you bug it enough, it might try to go look for another den or something. That can be a bad thing. So yeah, we need to respect those things that we like. So yeah. Well, any other final words of wisdom on your, on this topic? Just to follow up what you just said there, handling a lot of reptiles is fine but definitely still

respect them if you're going to handle them um one more real quick story i just remember a time that me and aspen came across the coach whip in southern nevada and it was gorgeous bright pink really pretty and we're trying to get photos of it and as you know coach whips don't hold still they want to bite you and they're a very energetic species. Well, as we were trying to photograph it, we realized it's 110 out. Oh, I remember this one. We're messing with this thing, and all of a sudden it's like, wait, this thing looks like it's overheating. It's starting to show signs of that stress.

And so we promptly let it go as soon as we saw that there may be an issue. But sometimes you get excited about what you found and it's easy to almost overlook that the animal is stressed by that interaction. And sometimes the best, even though you want to get your perfect, beautiful tongue-flicking shot of the snake, sometimes the right thing to do is just to let it go

and not overstress the animals yeah i agree i i still i love that scene in walter middy where the guy's out photographing snow leopards in nepal or whatever and and he sees when it comes into his field of view of his camera and he just sits there and watches it and you know he's like aren't you gonna take a picture? He's like, no, that's just for me. That one's just for me. I think that's kind of cool to just be like, I saw it. I appreciated it.

I don't need to post it to prove that it happened. Even though they got the whole thing on film. All right. It's all set. Yeah, I got you. I got you. He wasn't a real wildlife photographer That was Sean Penn The actor

The actor? Ronald Reagan? Actor? We can't get back on this We gotta do a different movie Alright well Thanks for coming on This was a good lively topic not as much bloodshed

as I was hoping for but no Aspen's not you can only do so much when you're fighting uphill yeah that's fair Aspen was scared I might hurt his feelings so it's true I'm a sensitive soul he's already worried about the backlash

he's going to get when everyone oh I know I'm going to get when everyone I'm going to get dirty messages I already know it well our two listeners won't bother you that must be us there you go anything new exciting you've seen

in herpetoculture or herpetology? Anything cool out there? I mentioned the one. I really enjoyed the videos of that catch-it guy out in the Galapagos. Just the 4K footage of a Galapagos tortoise is pretty cool to watch. If I can. That's awesome. I think one thing I've liked, uh,

seeing recently is there's been a, uh, it seems like in the hobby for keeping at least there's been this big push lately of trying to preserve species that maybe aren't as popular. Um, maybe they're just like a boring brown gecko or a snake or something. And it seems like there's kind of been this recent rally behind, like, there's all these popular species, but don't forget about these other ones because if we let them fall off the edge and fall out of the hobby of keeping, you may not have the chance to keep them ever again.

So it's been really cool to see. I've seen keepers kind of popping up all over the place with these random species, which kind of is what helped prompt me to go buy that kukri snake, because I don't know very many people that work with kukri snakes, and the few that do are thankfully passionate, but it seemed like a species that would be fun to work with that isn't as popular so it's cool to see see that happening doesn't uh zach loafman work with kukris i feel like i feel like body did maybe it's

somebody else maybe i'm i'm bad with names i i've potentially even talked to him and I already have lost the name Sack I'm sorry Sack I I enjoyed the Reptilian Nation show in Salt Lake

I hung out with Chris a bit there and followed him around and stalked him. Chris wouldn't let me tag along. He told me no. Just a trip for him and his girlfriend. That's exactly what it was. That Herp Time booth was pretty sweet. He had some good

lesser-seen stuff. Yeah, that was cool. Spherodactyls, geckos, and some cool anolis and stuff. That was probably the best table there, other than mine, of course. I was going to say. That goes without saying. Don't forget about your own booth.

I mean, I probably lost you some sales from talking with you too much, but it was fun to talk to you while we were there. Yeah, no, that was cool. I always like to see those booth booths that have lesser you know like it gets old when every table has ball pythons or crested geckos you know and it's nice to see people working with their own little niche and their own little nipper that being said it sucks when that table with the rare stuff is a bunch of wild caught imports that are half-dead in the tubs. That sucks, but it's cool to see when it's done the right way.

Yeah. Well, speaking of that, the emerald swifts, the scoloporus, what's the malachitis or something like that? I know the exact ones you're talking about. I can't remember the species. They kind of went away, but they're like a pet store lizard, and they bring them in for really cheap. But he had captive bred babies, the Herp Time. That's cool.

Is it Armin? I'm so bad with names. He told me his name a few times. But really cool guy. I sat and chatted with him for quite a while, the Herp Time guy. But he had some captive bred emerald swifts at his table. Yeah, there was someone there with captive bred waxy monkey tree frogs too.

Oh yeah, Chris. Apparently that's... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Malachiticus. Malachiticus, yeah, that's right. Chris from... Oh, Gecko Daddy. Yeah.

Is that what it is? Yeah, I think he's the first one in the United States to breed those. From Gecko Daddy. Is that what it is? Yeah. I think he's the first one in the United States to breed those. Really? That's what I heard. They're commonly imported, but he's the first one to captive breed those. And then from his efforts, other people have followed suit. I think Josh's Frogs bred some recently as well as some others.

But, man, yeah, he figured him out and and caught him to to breed and i think he's sharing his uh success like the secrets of his success with anybody who wants to know like he's not keeping it a secret like yeah he's a cool guy i really like chris yeah he is cool yeah he had a his army of kids working the booth. People named Chris are usually really cool. Shameless plug. Shameless plug. Yeah. I picked up a couple new projects at the show.

Well, one at the show and then another. I thought about them at the show because Josh's frogs were there, and sometimes they'll have the binos geckos. But I've heard they're really cool. They're like some people's favorite gecko. I think it was Joe Hupp or maybe somebody said the binos were his favorite gecko. That's saying a lot because he's got a ton of geckos. So I picked up a group of those, and I got some collared lizards from my buddy that I vend with.

Yeah, those were cool. Brody has some cool. I mean, captive bred collards are like chill. They just sit, hang out. They're so cool. Yeah, yeah. Do you feed them lizards, or how do you go about feeding them? Well, I just got them this weekend, so I haven't had too much.

I've been feeding them dubias and mealworms, they see they're juvenile so they're not quite adult yet okay i need to get them in a little bit bigger container because they're pretty active like you need to get a pretty good size uh enclosure for them you know but the one i've got is you know not too too small but it's uh decked out with a lot of places for them to climb but man they're just jumping all over and running around. They're a lot of fun to watch. That's been nice. He's done really well breeding them. I think he's going out on a herb trip to observe them in the wild and get some inspiration for

keeping some other species and stuff. He's done well with them and produced quite a few of them so they're pretty cool well um where can people find you so they can ask you for herb spots uh the usual facebook and instagram uh just under aspen mayhem uh like chris said earlier if you guys want to talk herping more than happy hit me up more than happy to share what I feel or what I think the majority of us feel would be ethical herping

and how to target some of those species just because I argued for herb spots don't necessarily expect me to tell you where to get helas but again more than happy to talk cool and yeah if you're looking for herp spots uh just don't look me up no um no you can just look me up on facebook

as uh chris allen jensen's my facebook or um cash herps is my uh instagram or my reptile business which isn't super active yet but it's picking back up again it was more active back when I had my big short tail collection but it's there too but yeah people are welcome to reach out if they want alright well

thanks for coming on guys thanks for having us yeah it was fun it was a good time we'll give our shout out to the podfather Eric Burke and Owen Thanks for having us. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was fun. It was a good time. We'll give our shout-out to the podfather, Eric Burke, and Owen McIntyre for starting this whole thing going and umbrellening our show on their network. And check out MorelliPythons.com.

Is that right? Oh, come on. Who put this guy in charge? MorelliPythonRadio.com. dot com. Is that right? Oh, come on. Oh, no. Who put this guy in charge? Pythonradio.com. There we go. He was missing something in there. Sorry, Eric. We did it again. Alright, well.

We'll catch you again. He's just back from France. Give him a break. Yeah. Sacre bleu! Bleu! There was... Oh, never mind. I don't know why. Yeah, anyway. Check us out again next week for Reptile Fight Club, if that's the name of this podcast.

I'm all herped out. Go assholes. I'm all herped out. Go assets. We'll be right back. Outro Music