Reptile Fight Club - Should You Herp To a List? With Nipper Reed

Episode Date: December 8, 2024

In this episode, Justin and Rob are joined by Nipper Reed to disucuss if you should use a list of species to go herping or just go and see what you can find? Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comIGFollow Rob @ https://www.instagram.com/highplainsherp/Follow MPR Network @FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQSwag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

all right welcome to reptile fight club welcome back we're i guess we're i was looking back at our old episodes we've done recently, and it's kind of sparsing, thinning out a little bit. But that's all right. We'll press on. I'm here, and with me as always is Mr. Bob Rock. Rob Stone, how are you doing? I'm doing great. Yeah, I think we'll pick back through it. I think it was the trip kind of, right? It got things adjacent. And that's sort of how it always goes, right? I mean, that's the thing that Eric and I had talked about, you know, for the, what, going on 13 years that he's been doing it, is that it's the, whatever that schedule is, it's sticking to the schedule that then basically reflects whether podcasts continue or not.

I mean, either way, you're well past the average length, seven episodes or whatever of most podcasts. That's true. Past that point. But yeah, I mean, that's usually the problem, right? It's actually the schedule. And even if it's asynchronous, that at there there is a plan and it's sort of the consistent schedule and they make a plan so i think we'll get back towards that and yeah be all good yeah yeah we've uh got some great guests lined up so i'm excited for some and speaking

of which we've got a wonderful guest today our uh tea drinking compatriot nipper welcome welcome to the podcast never oh you gotta unmute yourself though i was i was just saying it's about bloody time you had me on here quite frankly you've been running for years um but it's lovely to be here today yes now you've been on you did our intro one at one point so i did i did do an intro when we was in the car yeah but uh yeah not in person we yeah we have neglected you and we apologize profusely and hopefully we'll make it up to you today okay we'll go with that we'll go with that that's good it sounds good well yeah it's good to good to see you i guess we get to see you not the the listeners but they get to hear you your wonderful dulcimer tones great voice but yeah well it feels like we haven't spoken for a long time everyone's been away doing

herping stuff which is great um but we've all been at the four corners of the globe yeah you've had some pretty exciting trips lately as well and i've been yeah i've been i've been quite blessed with some trips which has been good finally got the lizard that i needed which leaves me with one species to see and then i can and i can concentrate on uh the american stuff yeah now that was a snake or a lizard species that you still need it was i need one i had two lizards left, so I completely missed. I went out to Zamos, which is a Greek island, but it's actually Asian. It's very weird. Geographically, it's kind of Asian, but it's still owned by Greece. The species is an Asian species, but it still counts on the Euro list.

It was super hard to find, but we managed to get it in the end which is good and that leaves me just one very large green lacerted lizard to find which is the uh cyclades green lizard okay what makes that one so difficult uh it's just it's not massive um densities and it's quite hard to get to where it is um it's only it's only on the cyclades islands or cyclades depending on how you want to say it um and yeah even on those islands it's not in large densities and it's quite a shy lizard okay yeah i i mean i i enjoyed you guys talked about this on venom exchange radio right your we did we did podcast oh thank you we did briefly yeah we uh yes we did um i'm just looking forward to finishing if i'm perfectly honest yeah just send your your uh your significant other over there i'm sure

she'll find oh she does way better than i do i think i think there's something to be said for having no uh investment in what you're looking for yeah and then it just i think that it just comes to you if you're really invested in what you're looking for i think uh there's some vibes that you send off and you may not find it right yeah that desperation man it just scares the reptiles away 100 100 yeah yeah it is funny though i i think um i was talking to jordan parrot my buddy he's over in australia now, herping with his family. And he's like, man, I think we wouldn't have found half this stuff if it wasn't for my family with me. It's funny how...

The number of... Ali, my partner, doesn't have a reptile list. Yeah. But if she did, it would be exceptional. Because she's found so many really rare species. And she can, you know, it could be the most commonest thing in the world to her. She has no care about it whatsoever. Yeah, that's fun.

Yeah, I've had some fun experiences with my wife herping. You know, I'm telling her, oh, we're not going to see a snake. This is just too, you know, too many people traveling through. And then she comes across the snake. You're like, okay, I was wrong. You're the good luck charm. It was less about that actually being true than trying to persuade her that it wasn't about idea to do what you were doing. Maybe so. Maybe so. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point.

Yeah. Or to reassure her that we were going to get out of there without stepping on a you know mulga or something so i think that's what she was more worried yeah it's getting dark we got to get out of here we're going to step on no no snakes left and right oh no no you won't see one of those oh oh there it is yeah cool all right well yeah we yeah, we're glad you're narrowing your list. You got one more to go and you'll see all the species in Europe. And that's pretty incredible. Yeah. And then there's America. Yeah. We've got you over here a couple of times, right? You've done a few trips and i've done a few trips there's a long list um this is obviously there's obviously the venomous list yeah but i was uh looking at that chap that is trying to find all the reptiles of california isn't that cool yeah i really like it yeah i love

that i love the way he flicks through the guidebook and then he goes, right, I'm going to go find this. And the one I saw today was the Californian giant salamander. Ah, yeah, yeah. I saw that one. That was pretty sweet. And you know I have a weakness for salamanders. Yes. Yeah. So, yeah, I want to see that.

So when Rob takes me to see rattlesnakes in California, that's definitely bycatch, 100%. That would be a pretty exceptional bycatch 100 that would that that would be a pretty exceptional bycatch it would yeah that deserves a focus yeah yeah cool yeah well yeah we're excited for your next trip over here are you gonna make a carpet fest and um yeah i'm pretty much booked up for 2025 now i've got all my trips planned so obviously earlier i'll go into the canary islands because there's a few species i still need for the canary islands although that's not europe i still want to see everything on the canary islands so got a few species left there um then obviously out to naxos when the weather's right for the lizard i need and then out to yourselves to do a little bit of

pa herping hopefully see some hellbenders and some timbers and attend Carpet Fest. And then, where after that? Oh, hopefully back out to you again to look for some rattlesnakes in warmer climes. And then Portugal for a newt. And then we'll see after that. Very cool.

Yeah, sounds like a really good schedule there. Yeah. I just need more time and more money. Right. Same as everybody. Yeah. That's the tricky thing, right? Yeah.

Well, it seems like you get out there quite a bit. You're a very experienced and well-traveled field herper, and, yeah, it's been great to be with you on some of those trips and to see you in action, I guess. See me tired and confused because of the difference. Yeah. That does make it a little more challenging. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. All right. Well, um, as such an experienced and accomplished field herper, we're going to talk about a topic in field herping to a list or, you know, just kind of going to an area, I guess, and field herping to an area.

Would that be the, the, some, some, a good summary of the topic? Yeah. A hundred, a hundred percent random, random herping or specific lists. Yeah. Alley field herping or nipper field herping, right? Oh yeah. My field herping. Yeah. All right? Oh, yeah, my field herping. Yeah. All right. Okay, well, we'll go ahead and do the customary coin toss.

We'll go ahead between me and Rob to see who gets to debate you. All right, go ahead and call it, Rob. Tails. It is heads. I'm sorry. But as this has been a topic between the two of you, I'm going to go ahead and fill the moderator seat. I think this is kind of a topic that you guys have kind of come up with and worked out a bit. So I think I'm interested to hear what you both have to say. All right. Well, let's have Nipper call the next one. I'll go hex again it is tails so rob we got uh two missed calls today man i know

well fair enough what side would you like to take rob um well i think just for the form of the thing to give the give the best content because i well step one will be right there's kind of definitionally the the there's a value or utility to um herping to a list but when we say that do we mean solely like divining the mission of the trip or is it kind of giving ideation about where to go generally? Right. So you had a great phrase for that, Justin, in terms of sort of right. It might drive being in a given location, but you just said it this morning, but I can't. It doesn't come to mind. Regardless, I will let Nipper play to his play to his preference. I'll try and fight the fight, you know the offhand here, and we can go ahead.

Okay. I'm going to temporarily go, although it's very hypocritical of me, I'm going to go not herping to a list. Okay. Okay. All right. I see. I see.

You know that I know that you know. Exactly. Beautiful. Okay. Okay. All right. I see. I see. You know that I know that you know. Exactly. Yeah. Beautiful. Okay. Well, Rob, as the coin toss winner, are you going to lead us out, or are you going to defer to Nipper and chuck him? I will chuck him, and let's see where this goes.

I love this. So many back-footing, so many different ways. Okay. Let's see where this goes. I love this. Backfooting so many different ways. Okay. Okay. Well, if you will, I would like you to close your eyes and imagine you are on the south coast of Bulgaria in beautiful wetland habitat. It's the migratory season, so all the birds are there,

the orchids are all out, and all the flowers are in bloom. And you're spending a whole week just walking around herping. And then I would like to imagine that you drive a few hours, half a day, and then you're in the beautiful Evros Delta, another massive wetland with all the flowers blooming and all the birds are out. And both of these are world sites for wildlife and you are just a miserable old fuck because you cannot find the species you're looking for you're seeing

hundreds of herps you're seeing butterflies you're seeing dragonflies you're seeing orchids in bloom and you're walking around with a face like a smacked ass because you cannot find one long brown snake and that gentlemen in a nutshell is why you shouldn't hurt to a list you should just go and appreciate everything and not be so focused that it stresses you out if you can't find one horrible annoying snake compelling compelling i like that what you got rob yeah so certainly uh the passion that you're bringing on that is I certainly understand that and relate to it, even in the smaller sense, right. Of saying being in a local area and sort of the pressure of, you know, trying to find Eastern Diamondbacks.

I know we felt that on the trip together and then certainly that I felt it even more pressingly when I'd gone specifically for that to a very specific place in a short window of time. And it was getting to the 11th hour of the trip uh yeah absolutely i understand that i think to me maybe the lists are most effective herping to a list is most effective paradoxically when you have checked off nothing right that you the entire world or the entire area, whether it be at that state, that region, whatever. That's when acting to the list has its greatest benefit because it actually can cause you to appreciate anything and everything.

Right. Everything is new. Everything is special. Everything's a tick, you know, if you want to count it in that way so um that's when it has its greatest utility it has its least utility for both your experience your enjoyment of the thing and uh embrace in the moment when it is that singular thing until you take the singular thing and then then it's pretty okay so there's it a hundred percent of hundred percent utility on the front end for an area that gradually diminishes until it's complete. And that moment of completion, you're, you know, probably even exceed where you started from. I would agree in principle. That's as far as I'm prepared to go. I would agree in principle. And I do, you know, joking apart, I do get it. When you first start a list whether it's your i'm going

to do a backlog backyard list or i'm going to do a state list or i'm going to do all the asserted i'm going to do rattlesnakes or whatever you're going to do when you first start it's easy enjoyment because you're probably going for the more common species um and you can get you know it's like when I come to America, I'm literally like, as I said before, I'm like a child because everything I see is brand new and exciting and shiny. It's lovely. But as you say, as you move on through that list,

it becomes harder and harder. And what started out as a jolly wheeze suddenly becomes very, very stressful i'm looking forward to going with rob when he's looking for obscurus because i think that in terms of american stuff is probably the most stressful thing to find and you know it's something that you're going to have to chuck money and time at and our time and our finances are valuable. We all have families and other hobbies and we work hard and we get a certain amount of time off work.

And we want that time to be successful. And if we've driven hundreds and hundreds of miles or flown hundreds and hundreds of miles and we walk around some scrub land and nothing happens it's going to be very frustrating but if you didn't have a list and you was just walking around scrub land you'd be looking at cacti and lizards and mammals and all those things that you just run over in australia because you're looking for snakes. Yeah, I mean, I think there's something to that.

On the other hand, I well, so two thoughts come to mind out of that. The first would be that I think just going to the places associated with a specific list. Right. Maybe this is the benefit of what you're consistently preaching of saying areas rather than types of things. So to the extent my, you know, post or COVID induced list became U.S. crotalist forms. Right. And part of that then becomes, well, what's even what am I even counting or not counting? And there's some personal feelings to that. But or feelings, dynamics, however however we should frame it but um you know it also has caused interactions with all sorts of other things and so that list has naturally expanded to be u.s rattlesnakes so including cisternus u.s venomous as we dr j popped us that first coral snake then i saw a florida one but still need to get a photo you know that becomes its own um and then into well let's try and find all the pitufas because i've seen the seen the forms in california arizona utah hold on a minute hold on a minute when did this when did this list come out

why am i on this list well mostly because you refuse to be included on the heterodon list. Oh, talk about pieces of shit, snakes. I've had enough of your hog nose splashing. Yeah, picture opus is cool. So as a part of that, you know, like, so that's one aspect, right, is actually maybe is the benefits rather than having a regional list, is having a specific list is then you can just expand the list as it gets to as you're hitting that nadir in your experience using the list you can then approach it and say okay well let's expand the list it includes this now you know that those sorts of things as opposed to your i think it

really fundamentally is your herculean task of saying let me find all the species in europe has really prejudiced you against this because there was no no way to manipulate the list you didn't start with you know a more narrow list that as it as you as your um capacity to to achieve the list went down you didn't have the ability to just expand the list thereby sort of reinvigorating the character of the thing um so to me within its defined list uh you're talking about obscurus and i don't doubt that when i'm on the 12th trip i won't have this enthusiasm uh on the you know on the first trip there won't be negativity around not finding it because it's this really cool habitat that i would not otherwise be in and uh

i don't anticipate on the fact that i'm coming to the party with no expectation of finding it, despite trying to align all the things to give it its greatest chance. I'm not nearly so optimistic that that I would actually see one to the point where if I, you know, if we do, I would just be, I think, certainly I'd be excited. I would just be shocked, right? You know, well, there's dumb luck for you. Okay, cool. I guess I've been saving up to get that. To quote Shakespeare, I think she doth protest too much. I think you will have a proper sad on if you can't find it quite early on i would i'll be

put my hands up to it straight away there is such it's i mean we're all guilty of it uh i would say probably you and justin are more guilty of it in australia than you are in america but we're all guilty we all have stuff that we really want to see and it becomes so addictive i mean if anyone's pretending that it's not an addiction and they're happy just to wander around and see stuff i think they're lying everybody has stuff that they really really want to see and if you plan to trip around that particular species and you don't see it i don't care how zen you are and i know you are proper zen but you're still going to have a sad on i do i do think you

you kind of stratify your list in tiers you know you have your top tier finds and as rob said you know if you haven't found a lot of those then you know finding one makes the trip worth it and you can kind of justify the other two but also not finding gives you a reason to go back to the area and whether that's a you know 12th trip might be pushing it a little bit and might be a little rough unless it's a local thing you know traveling thousands of miles to go look for one specific thing on one specific rock might be a little tedious after that you know i had six trips for the block snake and i don't even want to add up how much money that costs to find a small or a medium-sized snake that lives in a pond do you know what i mean but um which brings me to my i i do think that's kind of the that that when you're driven to

complete a list that's probably when it gets to, that when you're driven to complete a list, that's probably when it gets to the ultimate tedium. When you're starting a list, as Rob said, it's all, it's all great. And even in the middle, I would say it's, it's probably fantastic. I'm sure on the third or fourth trip, you were still enjoying everything and there's much more to see than that specific target. So, you know, you've led me almost in a perfect segue to my next point

which is i and i'm going to use um bulgaria as an example again um purely because that's where my frustrations were at their worst we was out with a group of you know a group of chums that i hurt with regularly in Europe, and some of them were new. They hadn't been to Bulgaria before. My friend Trev has been with me on all but one of the Bulgaria trips. And we found, or I found, with a particular location, which is arguably the rarest snake in Europe,

which is the reddish whip snake. Very gracile, long, cool-in-bridge snake, like bottle green, but with a bright red head and collar. Really nice looking snake. And it's super, super rare. I mean, in Europe, its distribution is tiny, just a little tiny part of Bulgaria and a little tiny part of Bulgaria and a little tiny part of Romania on the coastal. And we went to this location to look not for that,

but to look for something else. And I flipped a log and there was one underneath. And everybody is losing their mind. And I'm like, yeah, it's not the snake i'm looking for i've seen it before and to see something so rare and just because i'd seen it before that was devalued that shouldn't happen that's what's wrong with having a list and we saw we saw a ton of ammodytes vipers iconic venomous snake yeah and always different the patterns on every individual are different it's just a beautiful beautiful thing um and i'm literally finding them and i'm just like oh for flip's sake another ammodytes that's

wrong every one of those should have been a gift that i just sat down and went wow i found a wild amydites but because i'm working to a list that was just time taken up where i wasn't finding what i was trying to find so two two things here this leads me to so i have the positivist direction relative to herping to a list. And then perhaps more cynically, I would point out that's just the problem with herping in Europe because you're just flipping everything. And so it's all about this manual toil of flipping rocks to then find these snakes. And really, if you just encountered them as you're, you know, on walkabout, that's the cynicism associated with this is actually just the manual toil. And you're just like, what, if any, is the prize under the rock?

And then it's the wrong prize. You're completely right. I mean, I wish we could at American Hurt, which is sit in a nice air-conditioned car and just drive up and down and listen to music and chat shit and go, oh, there's a snake. But unfortunately, in Europe, that doesn't happen in australia too you know exactly we have to work for our snakes imagine how many snakes you find in america if you flip some rocks yeah well and so certainly we do i'm just saying that we also find them just you do you know out and about doing doing their thing. And so I think, yeah, no, it makes your accomplishment relative to Europe all that much more impressive, right, is part of it to me.

Even finding stuff on the East Coast here is really impressive to me, or the Midwest and things like that, because it's entirely different. I think we all have a – our love for the desert is not only the environment generally and the creatures it's that uh it's a lot more convenient you know when uh views go on forever and there's not a ton of leaf litter and you can just sort of things will be out and if you particularly if you can train your eye for uh the cryptic features within that environment or i i do admit right on our first utah trip where we were trying to find con color and i checked uh you know a thousand several thousand perfect nooks awaiting a rattlesnake and did find one uh appropriately well yeah or was that uh that blacktail that was a different trip right the blacktail and the neck was a different one so yeah so i was one for 1500 or something on our first utah trip

yeah and it was a leutosis not a conch collar you know in that different habitat that was you know doing better you know so meaning the conditions were more favorable to finding a snake in that area relative to what we had seen previously. I think too, a big factor that you don't have any control over, but has much control over reptile activity is the conditions. And when you're booking a trip months in advance, you have no clue what the conditions are going to be that week. And so I think just a piece of advice for anybody herping is don't get to that point where you're so focused that you can't appreciate other things other than the number one on your list or the last thing on your list in the case of nipper, um, you know, be able to appreciate, dare I even say the B word, uh, birds, you know, other, other animals, you know, like you were saying, the orchids, the, the bird life, the mammals, you know, there's all sorts of things

out there that are, that are really exciting. And also I think we've hit on this quite a bit on our, um, in past, uh, recordings, but, um, the fact that you kind of get that, uh, well, I've seen that. So, uh, it's just another, it's just another X or just another Y instead of like appreciating every, you know, reptile you find, because even if you're finding common species, at least you're finding something, you know, you're not getting skunked. And I think that's a, uh, you know, reasonable way to look at a trip is just, hey, I found something, you know, even if it's a bug or a cool bug or a bird, because there are some days you're getting skunked, you're not seeing anything. So that's been, that's kind of the challenge of herb trips, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. And in terms of the Obscurus, you know, for that trip,

Nipper, two advantages, right, are that they, at least at this point, again, trip one rather than trip 12, is the ability to combine it with other habitats that are very close by where I still have other things that are on list, to Justin's point about sort of tier tiering and things is I'm not super worried about trip one because, uh, as part of the broader trip venture, we're going to be days out of seeing, you know, things that are similarly, uh, you know, in certain ways, right. I, I probably am more interested, uh, intrinsically in seeing a Senna Col than i am i'm like justin here at this point than i am yeah old news wouldn't be exciting if we see one just kick it off the trail right i haven't even seen a you know an arizona form gila monster so that you know that similarly is part of the trip you know that uh i'll be super excited for those in some ways.

And maybe this feeds to your point. So then I'll circle back that to give a pro point relative to herping to a list is Obscurus. They're interesting snakes. They're probably just northern Silas. I was just talking on steven cush's podcast about this a little bit right if if you read the species the history of the species description of obscurus it seems like there's a lot of uh herpetocultural politics around it in the 70s with maybe someone had access to that population collected a bunch of them and then wanted to name it and get it protected to avoid allowing other people to similarly access this resource that that person had already sort of made their niche.

Right. So it's interesting. They certainly are a form that exists in the US, so they apply on the list and whatever but when i say intrinsically i don't know that uh that other than being rare and being willard eye which are really cool anyway uh you know a variant of willard eye that it really would matter a ton to and well just sort of feasibility questions that it would make a ton of difference to me to see it uh see a silas in mexico than it is oh i have to see this thing here i'm, really, the value is the fact that it's hard, not the animal necessarily intrinsically. So, you know, if you said on this trip one, you could see a Senicolis and or a Gila, or you could see Obscurus. If I found Obscurus, that would totally be sort of the avoidance of a negative outcome, right? It's the relief. Oh, that's done. You know, there is an intrinsic excitement.

But in that relative paradigm, I think I honestly might be more excited to see a Senekola Surahila in my deep down, right? Now, because as I say, I think that's really a point for you. To me, the beautiful point of a herping to a list is the ability to say, give ideation about where we should go, right? That was the whole point was in October 2020, we started creating, you know, we didn't have a list at that point. It was, well, people go to West Texas. I've never been to West Texas. Let's go to West Texas because that's the, you know, a place in the United States that certainly will be accessible. Definitely don't, don't believe, get or believe in COVID down there, you know, whichever line you want to take. So we knew that would be super

accessible and we could do it and we wanted to give it a shot. And then after that, right, so we did see, it was very heart-hurting relative to finding stuff. We, mostly lizards, again, being open to different things. We did see one, one beautiful, uh, beautiful in the sense that it existed at, you know, certainly when we posted photos, people were not impressed with the eight tracks that we turned up, but it was beautiful to us as a, you know, a sign of, uh, achievement. And then that became, well, I've seen prairie rattlesnakes having lived in Colorado and I've seen eight rocks now based on that trip. I'm at two of some number. I don't even know what that is. Let's try and find us grottolus

forms. And now here we are for, you know, just over four years later and I'm sitting in 24, 27 and feel, feel pretty good about seeing 26, 27. Right. So really the, the utility to me is saying it's put me in all these different spots and And then even family trips and things, it's, well, hey, let's maybe shift the area an hour this way, and that will give us a shot that when we go and walk about, we can try and find this thing. Yeah, I would agree. I still think if you see Obscurus in Mexico, you won't have the same excitement as if you see it in the States. Oh, absolutely.

No, yeah. So maybe, you know, as ever, right? So much of my mind that I'm failing to convey properly. You will not be able to count it on your list because I will haunt you. So let me bring up another point then. Again, I'm going to ask you to use your imagination so imagine you leave your house and you drive for two and a half hours and then you get on a plane for four hours and then you drive for six hours and then you catch a ferry which is going to take you a couple of hours and then you arrive on an island which is small but not as small as the island you need to get to so you have to hire

a fishing boat so you hire a fishing boat and you go two hours out into the sea where you can't see anything all around you except for one sea stack and then after an hour of circling the sea where you can't see anything all around you except for one sea stack and then after an hour of circling the sea stack you finally manage to jump from the boat cling to the side of the sea stack scramble up it and the top of the sea stack is about as big as an american football field and that is the total world distribution of a certain type of lizard which is the poriwool lizard um which is on the european list uh-huh yeah so i the the multiple thoughts i have out of that is a amazing b um you you know really then again we're talking about problems with the particular list you chose to fulfill, which, you know, puts us there.

And or taxonomists who decided that the C-stack is, you know, a reserve species. Sorry, my point is the amount of efforts to see one six inch brown lizard and the finances involved to see one six-inch brown lizard, I could have had a lovely relaxing herp trip to Costa Rica and just wandered around and seen so many beautiful things. I could have herped in England and seen every european herp sorry every english herp in that time easily twofold we only have a few but if you're going for a list it increases your logistics and it increases your time and outgoing for a single species yeah absolutely but that the adventure i mean that what you described right that's that's the adventure you know anyone whether they're interested in reptiles or not when you're telling them that story i'm sure they find it compelling and i know you have

plenty of stories like that both in and out of reptiles but nevertheless right that that's part of the fun of the thing you know so yeah i i think it also speaks to the beauty of my list which is not all of the x of y it's you know what what creatures do i find compelling and that that drives the list you know and then as it gets closer maybe then it expands to be you know again crotalist forms turned into rattlesnakes turned into all u.s venomous based on based on the trips based on conversations with you right and maybe i accepted too much your your ideology on this point because in reality my you know my list was grotolus forms and then oh and then heterodon for not just all the potential animals in this area you know it's what are the what are the things that really drive you drive in

of interest to me in australia it's pythons and uh goannas principally and then it's now it's becoming geckos based on the oedura that we saw you know but it probably wouldn't be geckos it'll be um oedura or neferus you know and then saltuarius what you know working through those things and then sent maybe it's only as that list gets closer that it might become all the top-end geckos, the Saxicolus geckos or something. It could be more broad, but I don't know that I'll make it unless I move there. I don't know that I'll ever get to that point. It's more likely that I would say from the US going to Australia, there'd be all the Neferuris and driving to that. And then, yeah, as you say say hopefully there are so many lists there between pythons goannas and geckos that in reality that that gives me a ton of exposure to everything all right firstly i'm going to pretend

that i'm not really excited about all the lists that you've just mentioned because they sound generally sound amazing uh i'm actually fitting for them. But from my perspective, contrary to making lists, if you keep adding to the list, you're still challenging. If you're going to say you're going to do all the Oedura or you're going to do all the Varanus, you're still limiting yourself to where you are going to do all the oedura or you're going to do all the varanus you're still limiting yourself to where you are going to go because by the nature by the nature of your list i mean

let's not forget i'm a fat old man and you nearly killed me making me go up and down the grand canyon just to see a maybe species of rattlesnake sure this is definitely a form it's definitely a form to be fair it was absolutely stunning but this is what your obsession has led to rob this is your but otherwise i mean that's sure but and you're the we're all the better for it right i'm certainly the better for it i think great story at least it was one of my favorite herping stories but that's not the point i'm trying to make. My point is we started that walk down the Grand Canyon and Justin found a lovely pyro. Stunning.

We could have turned back at that point, gone and had some hot chocolate, caramel chai latte, got some burgers, just sat and watched some strange films that you show me when I come over. And instead we walked all the way to the bottom of the Grand Canyon to see a rattlesnake because it was on your list. Sure. So I forget if it's alpha or numerical, right?

But Justin, you were talking when we were on this, it was the backside of that trip, right? Where we were talking through, you know, either whatever it is type two or type b fun right the yeah you know and i think you know embrace our sure it takes a certain person fortunately you know as as part part of these the joy of these trips really the joy of these trips is interacting with you guys and the experiences that we get to make together associated with that. And it turns out the people that I most enjoy being with generally are people that have an appreciation for that, you know, type two fun, the, the list pretty much divines itself as to who we wind up going with, because, um, you know, if, if people try and do it, who really aren't, aren't, uh, interested in that,

you know, they, they don't ask back, you know, and that, that's fine. That's totally fine. And even maybe, maybe the answer is I need to be a little more permissive of that because maybe it was in that moment. They weren't, uh, yeah, I, I see a nipper, but I try to be accepting and say, like, you know, maybe it was an off day or whatever. And there is that reality. And sometimes maybe I feel too harsh about that. But it really is about the people and the experiences that we get to craft together. So, you know, and the realization that, yeah, we have this shared common experience that was that is now so rewarding because it was hard. It was really amazing. I almost think that the pyro was that more exciting because,

you know, you're so focused rattlesnake rattlesnake. And then all of a sudden you look over and you see a pyro. You like whoa whoa i didn't even think about that you know and you get very excited and also i hadn't thought about it at all yeah right to your point never there was one snake that was on my mind it wasn't oh there can be nothing else here but it certainly um you know especially that that form definitionally right the. The Northern side of the grand Canyon, that's the Southern terminus of that species or subspecies or what, you know, and now not even taken or whatever, but that's the fine Southern terminus of that is where we were. And if I was thinking about it as the area, I probably could have realized that.

And that, I think that makes it all the more, you know, exciting. I guess it can go either way, right? You can be like, oh, well, that's not my target. So I'll take a couple pictures and move on my way to find my target. Or you can be overjoyed that you weren't even thinking about that as an option and it presented itself. So I guess a lot of this is in the eye know, the eye of the beholder. However, you're going to the I like the Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance. You know, that aspect of it where you're you know, the journey is part of the reward and not just the destination. So you've got to be able to enjoy as you're going, whatever you're you happen to find.

And I think as long as you can be a little Zen about it, you're, you're going to have a good trip regardless. I never saw myself herping Pennsylvania. Like I never thought of Pennsylvania as a cool place to her, but hanging out, you know, um, uh, in the Poconos and seeing all those water snakes and, you know, the snakes and the crack and stuff. I thought that was a cool experience that I never would have had because I wouldn't have thought of going to Pennsylvania to her. So, you know, that was kind of one of those moments that you didn't know were waiting for you. I think South Australia was kind of similar where I went for a specific,

you know, had my top tier not pan out at all, but all of the other things that we saw were fantastic. The scenery, I mean, just, just the scenery was kind of worth the trip in, in a lot of ways. So, um, and gives me a reason to go back and enjoy that again, because it was hard herping. And I think if we would have found all the top targets, you know, maybe I wouldn't have gone back, you know, for, to some extent, but I think, you know, it gives me another reason to try again and to experience that landscape again. Well, and what you speak to there, Justin, it does, you know, remind me, it is an important point to highlight that finding something definitely changes the experience, right? So the places that I've found, when there are additional difficulties, be it physical, right?

So say our Grand Canyon experience hadn't been well, we didn't have the crack team that we did, and we don't turn it up. Yeah, that's probably a pretty rough day out, you know? So it is the beauty in finding the thing, you know, yeah, absolutely. You know, and my experience, you know, in the Pine Barrens would kind of speak to that. Pine Barrens and even some of our Florida experience, there has been that, like, in those habitats where densities are so low, and it's sort of everything is special just because everything is a challenge, right? That's kind of the Florida thing.

Also driving those sand roads that are, you know, the pile will feel it and all. And, you know, certainly the pine barrens. I mean, there's the places that we're going, you're going to be scratching for three weeks, regardless of what you do coming out of that thing. So, you know, that and probably to have seen nothing, you know, hands over your ears, you know, mittens here. But, you know, an Eastern, my life for Eastern hognose snake, one snake for 16 miles, though, not excluding things. Right. So that would be a list item. It wasn't the top priority. It would probably be priority number two or three for that area. And especially being new to me that that was fantastic but that's that's really really tough really draining and

especially on that one that was probably five or six miles into the thing and then you got 10 miles more over the next day and a day and a half, day and a few hours for, uh, to see genuinely nothing, or at least genuinely nothing. If, if your list is defined to, to snakes and non, you know, sort of scoloporous type lizards or whatever, which, okay, we got one speed, a couple of individuals of one species. That's pretty, that's pretty rough. And that, that maybe makes, you know, the area a little less welcoming as opposed to southeast Arizona and stuff. And a lot of your rock hopping and things sound like they fall more into that category. So I understand then, you know, and are much more difficult logistically to do and expensive in the first

place right so it's not only the sort of the experience that i'm describing there it's also the constraints that they're associated with it i understand how things could look a little grim indeed so i understand i agree with what you're I'm going to try and turn that around a little bit. Where do you live, Rob? Colorado. Colorado. You have got some awesome species in Colorado. Absolutely.

People would travel miles and miles to watch some of the stuff that you have in Colorado. And you don't you bugger off to loads of different places to see pythons and mollocks and irregularities and all that sort of stuff you could just be wandering around in your backyard having a lovely time and really getting to know your local species but because you've got a list they are nothing to you they are like a cup of cold sick that you drop as soon as possible once you've seen it in your backyard you're not interested you want to go and see the sexy exotic stuff on a different continent to tick your list or if it's not got a buzz tail you're not interested because it's not on your list you're

not appreciating your local wildlife, Rob. And that's all to do with you having a list. Well, you know, I think this is where we need to work on our zen because I would dispute that. So the most common snake in Colorado, for sure, both in terms of actual abundance and rate of encounter, is the Western Terrestrial Garter Snake, which to me is perpetually one of my favorite snakes. I love seeing them. And you guys can attest to it in the group chat. the western terrestrial garter snake which to me is perpetually one of my favorite snakes i love

seeing them and you guys can attest to it in the group chat how many photos of me you know oh check out this one no it's cool it's got this one white scale on its belly you know or whatever and you guys are like seriously and you've actually well certainly i know justin you see them quite a bit because it's it's probably at least within your part of the state. Equally true there. And Nipper, you've seen them as well. When I said, hey, let's go to my favorite spot in Colorado. We did see one there. So, yeah, it's a nondescript, but, you know, between four inches, something like that as a baby and a big female might be a couple of feet long.

But, yeah, they're still one of my absolute favorite snakes and um when we go to take my daughter to the ice arena and things i invariably will go flip you know there are a couple boards there and i'm every time i go flip those boards to see if they're there i i will say too yeah same same thing they're very common around here i i love to see them i don't love to handle them because they stink. But I did. I found this huge female, gravid female sitting on the side of the trail sunning, you know, in the early summer. And, you know, if it was like, ah, it's just a garter snake. No, I stopped and looked at it. And I actually was taking some video. and it did this weird tongue flick thing where it was circling its tongue around in a, in a kind of a broad arc and circle. And I thought I have never seen that before. That's a weird new behavior that I didn't know existed. And if I wouldn't have spent the time to look at that garter snake and, and, and mess with it a little

bit and take some pictures, I wouldn't have seen it. So, you know, I think there, there is some, um, of course, you know, we get that, uh, you know, oh, it's just my local garter snake attitude. You know, it's, it's hard to not get that at times. And frankly, if we weren't working on a field guide, I probably wouldn't have spent so much time in actuality, but you know, it was a cool, very, very large female, probably the biggest garter snake I've ever seen. And so that kind of added a little bit of excitement to it. But, you know, I think we don't want to get too burnt out on our locals. And I think, you know, if you can maintain that excitement and joy in the common species you're going to be a happy herper no matter where you are indeed so i'm going to get you to use your imagination again your imagination is going to be well worn out by the end of this

imagine you are about seven and a half eight thousand feet up in the air in the mountains of Montenegro, which borders Greece and Macedonia for the geography challenge people in America. And you have on your list of species, which is found there, which is subspecies, but very striking subspecies, Vipira berus bosniensis lovely barred venomous snake and there's a few of you there and some of them say oh i'm not really that bothered about seeing that we're gonna go and have a look over in this habitat that we've not heard before or do you want to stay in the habitat where your species for your list is? And I stayed to look because I'm dedicated to the list. And I didn't find it.

They had a fabulous time and they found amylinistic newts. They found beautifully colored viper amiditis i missed oh and a leopard snake um which is one of the most photogenic european snakes i'd seen it but it's always gets good to get photographed so i just wandered around on the side of a mountain looking in thorn bushes and i missed out purely because i was stuck to a list why were you there why was i there to find the purpose of the trip was to find that thing your companions just decided based on what the condition that so was exposure to the other site, the unplanned site or whatever, and saying, let's check this out because that's a prioritization. Yeah, I mean, that sounds like that's really painful.

And, you know, it's really associated with like, OK, what was the it's almost, again, getting back to the idea of the experience with the group of saying, like, why is it that I'm here with this group at this time? The preplan, you know, all those things. with the group of saying like why is it that i'm here with this group at this time the pre-plan you know all those things that yeah i mean that that that's incredibly difficult right because that really at that moment was about well am i going to stick to the list or am i going to go with my companions and do this or whatever that's not to say that there aren't times within a trip where people split off and things but that sounds pretty fundamental and it's you know if everyone else on the trip is like yeah actually i'd you know could take or leave finding that particular thing um maybe in that moment as you're alluding to based on how it played out right all of this is post-facto but i would say that the what i would

the approach i would have in that moment is probably and would like to say that i would take is okay i need to come back here by myself because the rest of the group doesn't have that same passion as much as we're framing it as saying i wanted to go to the bottom to find the grand canyon rattlesnake everyone on the trip wanted to find the grand canyon right there was no other no other place they'd rather be you know i'd like to i'd like to lie and say that wasn't the case but we was all absolutely choking to find that snake i mean we did we did question the sanity a little bit we knew the the tall order that it was but we were on board yeah and i mean as a a credit to both of you and Justin as well, I would say that you successfully, you know, my respect for you guys and your ability to assess and effectuate a task made your questions about that sanity more apparent to me yeah maybe maybe consider it uh didn't make me change my mind but nevertheless did make did make me assess it again and was was disconcerting it

wasn't wasn't the full you know full-throated support i was hoping for for sure and why didn't you change your mind rob because you were fixating on the list you're obsessed it's become an addiction it's because that's why we were there i mean that's the thing you know that's what i you know so yes applying it right to the montenegrin situation right i would then say like wait i thought this was the ideation of the trip the reason we are here is this not just to hurt. Right. And that's where then would become, OK, I need to assess where we're at on this trip. You know, fundamentally, the point of this venture, all of this is a fancy way. Well, with a couple of other sidebars. But realistically,

hey, this is the opportunity to do this thing. This is the thing that we're doing. I thought we were aligned on that and if there's a misalignment okay lesson learned and we probably all need to reassess you know and that that doesn't mean oh we can't do anything you know or whatever but it's like oh we won't be you know i will put on the list let's go to the grand canyon and try and do this which would be a real shame because it was you folks being there that made it seem possible to me, which again, then put us in a context where you're, you're having doubts about the sanity and veracity of the thing made me, um, you know, was all, was all the more, uh, disconcerting. Yeah. To be fair, no fun story starts with a health and safety briefing, does it?

So that one might have yeah but i i appreciate the point nevertheless i certainly do and that that is a huge bummer i mean that being said right so say that situation plays out just so slightly differently i mean the result is entirely different but say you then found what you were seeking and they had had that same experience so that the only thing that changes is that you happen to see one then what's that story they probably you know then it's it's just the the perfect mixed bag right and that's sort of our ut Utah first trip. Justin had family obligations, had to come a day later. Mrs. Literally that same, you know, form of pyro. This is a mating

pair of pyros on the trail. Right. So but because of and I'm sure if then that as it was leading into if we then spent, you know, a bunch of time looking for other things and failed as we did, you know, and didn't have the spectacular end that we did at justin's probably having some serious questions about about that deal but you know those later successes and all these different things come through and then you know it gets you know the additive experience of the grand canyon forum you'd already see you're gonna okay i need to knock this out by myself then. This is no longer a common goal. This is now

a goal I need to effectuate by myself. You know, when we were back in Matt Habitat, we don't see him at the same spot that he had found them previously. Yeah, I don't know. It just sounds like a bummer that the snake wasn't sitting out that day.

I've seen it now. It's fine. It's actually fine. It's just to illustrate a bummer that the snake wasn't sitting out that day more than anything i've seen it now it's fine it's actually just just to illustrate a point i do think there's a point here too is you know sometimes you have to choose you know one thing over another and and if that's i'm going to choose the list over herping with my buddies then that's the choice you make you know you got to live with the choice or you're saying no no, I'm going to, I'm going to skip my list for now. I'm going to put that off till another day. And like, you know, Rob said, maybe that's a solo venture rather than a group venture. If not, everybody's on board, you know, sometimes, uh, you have a, the conceptualization of something and, and when you're actually going to carry it out, it seems, oh, wait, this is a little more daunting than I thought. You know, for example, when I was in Australia on my own, there was that road leading to the lost city where you have a good chance of

seeing Glebo Palma, but it had rained and the road was pretty crappy. And I was by myself and I was thinking, yeah, it's not worth the risk. I'm not going to drive out here because I probably won't see one either, but, uh, you know, I'm going to make the choice to, to go somewhere else and see something that I've already seen, but have, um, um, a better experience, uh, potentially in the long run and not have, uh, the stress of trying to dig myself out on my own. So that's the choices we make i suppose but yeah nevertheless i really do both both relative to the list and sort of that experience that you're mentioning there nipper i do uh i can't lie that i am super jealous of keith and him having seen global the same level

palm presumably twice and we were literally this wasn't a, you know, a question of having made a different choice. It was just exploring different areas. And, man, it really speaks to how secretive and cryptic they are. That, you know, he his his experience over two instances was probably a combined 10 or 15 seconds and that was it you know uh i spent hours you know staring at the wall fixed on it with a camera um looking into the the viewfinder you know and uh missing the the native experience that justin got a native european anyway experience that justin got in that same place i don't think you missed out much but yeah yeah i mean that's but that's half the joy of the thing if you know it's uh it's called fishing not catching you know it's called herping not finding you know and it would be less i i think we would care less if it was easier yeah 100 100 i mean this i find this exceptionally difficult

because if i'm honest i can't imagine herping without a list i it is a total anathema to me anyone that hurts without a list is a much better person than me that they are that chilled because i literally it doesn't matter where i am you know i love to be mission focused on a list and the sense of achievement i get when i find that species and you know i know both of you organize your own trips and do the same thing when you sat for hours looking at photographs and trip reports and scientific papers and you narrow down where you think that species will be and then you go there and then you find it there is nothing like it and that is why it's so addictive you know yes it's nice to want i'm out arguing myself now i

appreciate that but um it's lovely just to walk around in nature and see lizards and frogs and toads and everything. But it's not. Whilst there is an excitement and an inverted commas, a high from doing that and finding something, to actually track down a specific species, which, you know, the chances are so minute. You've got to be in the right place at the right time with the right weather. You know, if you took all the different factors to find in that one species and then you actually find it, it's just incredible. And that, for me, that's what makes it so addictive.

But I need the structure of a list. That's just my personal. I need the structure. I need a mission focus. Right. I want to find all of it. I don't care what it is. Because I know Rob, Florida was not his favorite trip.

I love the Florida trip. I really really did and i know it wasn't your thing and even though it pissed down with rain for so long um so then suddenly realized that we'd seen the majority of the florida toads and it was just a matter of finding three more suddenly it galvanized feel a nice so much you know that was new list new list yeah it was oh it was that was brilliant i loved the florida trip it was really good fun i mean you know sad about the snake and everything but it was such a good trip in terms of the excitement even though the weather conditions weren't optimal and even though we were tired and wet for a lot of the time and there were strange people it was still a really good trip because we just smashed that small list and you know your list doesn't have to be a massive thing it could just be like eric's doing i want to see all the snakes in my state which for some

may be a relative you know if you live in ari, it's probably a harder task than if you live in, I'm going to pull a state that I think is quite small, New Jersey. I'm not really sure. Yeah, there's more diversity there. I would have said something like Maine. Montana. Forgive me. I mean, to be fair, I think I could probably name about five states so I was doing well

but you know or you could say I want to see as Robbie's doing all of the venomous reptiles of North America a bigger list or you say I want to see every lizard or the best list for America has got to be I want to see every gecko

in America you know that's an easy tick. What have you got, five species? Six? Maybe six. But, yeah, just for me, I find it genuinely, genuinely addictive. The rush you get for flipping that 400th rock of the day and then seeing the thing that you've traveled hundreds

of thousands of miles for it's unbelievable now i want you to close your eyes nipper and imagine use your imagination so you've just ticked off the last species on the list you found all the reptiles in in in europe yeah and now you just get to go somewhere in europe and herp for fun you don't have a list you just want to go enjoy all the nature all the all the surroundings and herp as well um where are you going what you looking for you know be perfectly honest i've got a sub list so once i finish the european list it's mainly salamanders okay um there's a few high altitude salamander species which i've seen technically because i've seen the nominate forms but localities is a better word there's some localities that look much better than others if that makes sense oh there's some beautiful salamander over there i'd love to see some of

those so um i've seen all but i think i've seen all but one of the fire salamander subspecies in europe yeah but that's still one to go for and you know um i want to go i mean um some of our vipers particularly uh vipira suwani the locality difference in colors is incredible it's a bit like um some some of the routes, like the rosy boas or even... Oh, you're muted. So some of the Monsane rattlesnakes, like Stephen's eye, depending on the rocks, or clouberi, depending on the rocks, their variations will be different. And there's certain species in Europe that are like that,

which I'd like to catch up on. I've seen, do you know Cyprus, the island of Cyprus? So Cyprus doesn't actually count as Europe. Massive island. It's not on the European list. But it's got phenomenal herps. It's got about 30 species of herps on it. And I've only got one of those left to see, so that's something else.

And then we've got the Canary Islands, which is an island chain. It's off of Africa, but it's owned by Spain. And each island has got an endemic lacerted, an endemic gecko, and an endemic skink. And it's great because you can take your other half with you and they can just sunbathe and then you can just you've only got three things to find it's not like you're doing an epic trip so there's a lot of europe what i would call air quotes european options for me left now you're oh sorry you're so less focused that instead of answering the question you went on what list you're going oh, sorry. You're so list focused that instead of answering the question,

you went on what list you're going to go on next. Instead of what relaxing, beautiful place do you want to herp that you've herped before and you've seen everything there. Oh, okay. Relaxing just sounds like weakness to me. There's lots to be done. No, I will do Spain. I will do a lot like weakness to me. There's lots to be done. No, I will do Spain.

I will do a lot of trips to Spain. Spain, if you like vipers, Spain is the epicenter for vipers. And Suwanai and the test has just been revised, so there's a brand new subspecies that I haven't seen yet. So Spain is lovely. The food's great. The scenery is incredible. If you imagine, it's a bit like Arizona with bigger mountains

and slightly greener, but not much greener. So, yeah, it's just a beautiful place. But my focus will probably be, after that, the US, I think. Okay. And I'm really, really keen to get out to japan yeah yeah i i think you know this there is kind of some a little bit of overlap you know where you you love an air like rob was talking about earlier with the desert you love the desert you it doesn't matter what desert you're in necessarily you know and it only sweetens the deal i mean that was kind of the draw for central australia for me is desert but with red pythons well maybe not red in your opinion but yeah

brownish brick brick pythons out in the middle of the desert. Just filled my wildest dreams, you know, because I love the desert. I, you know, I love the deserts of Southwestern and I will keep going back to the deserts of Southwestern Utah, regardless of what herps I seeile species or a target, but just to get back to somewhere. I think that's important to have that go to or that piece of being in the desert, you know, regardless of what you're seeing or where you're at, what continent you're on. You know, that's completely agree. I mean, I will always continue to go to the greek islands because you know you've got beautiful mountains you've got crystal blue sea phenomenal birds great food and you can do a bit of herping at the same time so yeah why wouldn't you yeah exactly oh good stuff sorry i didn't mean to cut you off, Rob. That's okay.

All right. Well, and we need to be respectful of Nipper's time. He's all dressed up for our podcast, but I think he's got somewhere else to go as well. So how much longer do you have, Nipper? Are you going to do it again? Well, good for about 20 minutes okay okay cool any other topics you guys uh haven't hit on yet any other aspects of list herping or i genuinely found that really difficult because there's so

many points that i wanted rob to raise about how good it is to have a list. For me, one of the, you know, playing devil's advocate for me, one of the best thing about having a list is I've been to so many places that I wouldn't visit unless I was going there for a specific reptile or amphibian. You know,

a lot of the places in Europe, you wouldn't necessarily go there for a holiday um albania apologies if any albanians are listening to it but it's it's not the uh most picturesque or safest place to go um and i wouldn't have i wouldn't have chosen to go i went there it was fabulous really enjoyed enjoyed it. A lovely country, but it's not somewhere that is at the forefront of, you know, where you think of to go to holiday. Um,

and yeah, some, some of the, um, trying to think of some of the other species that have taken me weird places. Uh, um, the,

uh, one of the rock lizards, I drove to a very obscure mountain range in the middle of Spain, miles from anywhere that is touristic at all. It's Pene de Franca Mountains, if you want to Google it. Not a massive mountain chain, literally in the middle of nowhere. And I sat there for three days with binoculars, just looking for, again, a little brown lizard to come out which you know you'd never

visit places like that unless you had a specific list um or um one of the other european asserteds they're just on sea steps off the coast of italy so you have to get if not not the pori wall is it but a different one you have to get to get a hydrofoil to somewhere like Stromboli. And that Stromboli is beautiful. It's a little Italian island built, you know, obviously we know about the volcano and all that sort of stuff. And, you know, thousands of people were on the island with us all walking around.

It's all typical whitewashed walls and very quaint and beautiful flowers growing up the walls and old ladies selling you honey and all that sort of touristic stuff and everybody's there just for that and then my chums and i we're walking around going look at that lizard this is the only place you find it no one else gave a shit um but i wouldn't have gone there probably unless i was looking for that particular lizard and i mean little some of the greek islands like um castellarizo castellarizo the population of castellarizo i think is under 3 000 and you go there it's got one ferry in every x amount of days it has one flight in a week

and it's one flight in and then you have to wait a week and get a flight out yeah and it's got a salamander that only lives on that island and it's tiny it's incredible but i'd never have gone to castillo or carpathos i've never gone to carpathos if i wasn't doing the list yeah you know it's that's for me that's part of the joy that if you've got a i mean like rob doing the the the bus tail list i doubt there's areas on that list that you'd have chosen that you would choose to hurt if you was just thinking of doing a i want to go and look for snakes type trip because some of them there's not that many species in those areas you're going specifically for that snake but when you get there i mean for, for me, New Mexico I thought was stunning.

But, you know, it was never on my radar to go to New Mexico. It's not, you know, a touristic place particularly. I mean, Utah is obviously a very touristic place. It's famous for its scenery. And even Nevada, because you've got Vegas Vegas is a touristic place Colorado's you know a very famous holiday place but when you start going out towards Arizona and New Mexico but it's still I mean the sunsets and the cacti and it's just stunning it's just amazing yeah Yeah, Sky Islands. Sky Islands are one of the most beautiful places on Earth. And, you know, I guess I had such a desert-centered focus that I didn't consider montane species.

And so, you know, I rob's list of buzz tales and seeing you know some of those and seeing the twin spots and the i mean uh willard i are probably my favorite rattlesnakes now just they're just so cool and you had to bring the twin spot up didn't you i knew you were gonna do it you had to bring it up yeah but you know i didn't think i'd appreciate those as much as I do. And also appreciating my own state as well. I think that's that COVID lockdown has kind of really helped in that regard, too, is I appreciate what's in my backyard a lot more and have that drive to go see, you know, everything in my state as well. I mean, to be fair, out of all of us, I'd say you are without doubt the most fortunate in terms of herping where you actually live.

I mean, the species are so iconic that you have in Utah. And the scenery is incredible. Absolutely incredible. It's a win-win all around. It really is. You know, literally we have somewhere in the region of natural species. In the UK, we have around 12 species. That's it.

You've probably got more than that in your backyard. Yeah. Well, and I look at my area as kind of the, you know, the small diversity area because we're up in the north. But there is quite some nice species up here as well. Yeah. The only thing against Utah is you've only got one salamander species yeah yeah but it's easy to make the list you know yeah you've seen all the salamanders yeah yeah yeah yeah totally no i think you've hit on it to me that fundamentally is the point right it's the and that was why we followed you to the extent that we did, right? Or, you know, I did in terms of saying, okay, well, what's the thing?

Well, I've done two of 27. You know, let's turn this into a thing to ideate. Where do we go? What do we want to do next? And actually, the next thing we did is we went back to West Texas, you know, in the conditions that were supposed to be more favorable. And they certainly were, but it still wasn't good enough, depending on what we were looking for or whatever. But so I had to have a V3 that, you know, just happened. But, you know, that was the whole thing is having ideation to go to these places. I would say that the funny part to me is given my own predilections, my aversion would be to go to the tourist places you know where i would you know my natural inclination would be to go someplace off the beaten path i absent uh trying

to find abysses the grand canyon holds essentially no appeal to me you know and i realized that that then that's that's not the case. Yeah, I have no idea to climb to the bottom of the Grand Canyon. Zero. I'll disagree with you there. Sure. Again, that's my own, but that's my own. Snake or no, in terms of the physicality and in terms of the scenery,

I thought that was awesome. The physicality, for sure. and the scenery to some extent uh i just said you know we all have our own taste right and saying like okay where where is it that we would want to go what would be on our list or not on our list i know the grand canyon is a life's goal for a lot of people i'm i'm the weird one i i don't you know don't dismiss that reminiscing about that trip and i think it will illustrate a point for me obviously the finding the snakes was incredible but for me one of the most enjoyable memories for that trip which was an absolute gift was the fact that i got to sit in the dirt with a friend and just dig for fossils and for both of us we were giggling like children at the fact that we could actually just sit there

and there was you know million year old fossils everywhere that was insane and that wouldn't have happened if we wasn't doing the list because that's not somewhere we'd have been anywhere near if we wasn't targeting a specific snake it's that's you know it's quite off the beaten track or it wouldn't have happened without the specific uh person that you're talking to without having dustin on the trip yeah that wouldn't have that wouldn't have been the case because i was i mean i i appreciated him i got excited but i wasn't gonna sit sit in the dirt i'll look at him and say oh cool and then i'll say i'm i'm gonna continue on looking for reptiles now but you know i i did appreciate you know the the native american aspect the the ruins there that was really cool i i love that kind of stuff as well as as rob and

and you and the rest of the group but yeah i think my my focus on the reptiles was yeah kind of took me away from the dirt digging yeah i think well and that's you know just goes to show personal taste right so that place is one of my favorite favorite places um ever you know, and I knew of that place. And to me, that place, given my own taste, is far more compelling than the Grand Canyon, you know, absent the snake, you know, that place to me is much more special, you know, and so that's, again, just to each their own, but the list allows you to really, you know, it's this, it's sort of the interesting thing, right? There's a lot of conversation around, should you try to keep different things? And, oh, this person, you know, they just switch from one thing to the next or whatever and all those things within herpetoculture. And the answer is, well, if you haven't tried it, how would you even know?

How would you know how you react? How would you know your taste, what your flavor is? So there is some aspect of that as well. I'm curious, Rob. Did you know about the fossil aspect of that site or had you ever noticed? Yeah, I was, you know, I did. I knew of it. And but I it's I find it compelling right in the context of of anything right of saying it's I probably find it a little less compelling than both more and less than I should. That it's just amazing to

me that yeah they're these million year old fossils but that it's one of those things that like yes intrinsically i have an understanding of that in the scale of time but i also don't right that that's beyond my capacity to comprehend right what that actually is and looks like um and so it's it's not something that to me – the interesting thing to me about that is the site. It's not – it's because we're Americans, Snipper. Our sense and context of history, right? It's 300 years old. Yeah. Even when I'm in Ghent, right, and there's the thousand-year-old monasteries or whatever, they're just intermixed. They're still being actively used and things. Our context is so dramatically different from that, that just the idea of, okay, well, that similarly aged thing is, to me, is the part that is motivating and driving. Yeah, I knew that that was there, but that's not a driver for me.

But it turned out to facilitate this profound experience for you guys. So, yeah, it is amazing. But again, to Justin's point, that wasn't even where we were going. We were trying to go to a different place that was closed because they've limited access, save for days of the week that that wasn't or whatever. And then it was like, well, I know this place that i really enjoy for my own purposes you know that's an hour this this other direction or whatever so at least we can do that and then we can see and it turned out um just by chance to be this really compelling thing for you guys i just feel sorry for you rob because i have no idea

how you're going to top that grand Canyon experience and the fossils on the next trip. I'm expecting, I don't know, Scandinavian volleyball team to turn up or something like that. Well, you should have been in Australia. Oh, boy. All right. Well, I think we've done it. That's some great points and some great discussion. And I knew it was going to be the case, have a nipper on.

So thanks so much for coming on and really appreciate you. Any information you want to put out there about where people can find you and see your adventures and and stuff yeah if anybody wants to get in touch please get in touch through instagram i do have a facebook account but i very rarely check it so please don't think i'm being rude if i don't reply to you on facebook but if you send me a message on instagram i will reply as soon as possible is it uh nipper read on on instagram nipper reader instagram yeah yeah cool and yeah yeah let's oh yeah don't forget to listen to venom exchange radio um we've got a crossover episode coming out with the nature for you pipers um we did a chris we did a christmas episode for them on their australian uh podcast and then they've given us the feed, and we're going to put it out on Benham Exchange Radio.

So that should be out in the next few days. Nice. But, yeah, follow me on Instagram. It would be lovely. Get me over 1,000 followers. Be nice. All right. Cool.

Well, I mean, whenever you need to run, go ahead and run. I think we're going to keep, keep chatting a bit, but if you, if you need to leave or feel free to stay and join, I'll stay for a little bit, but I might, if I just disappear from screen, you'll know that I've, I've gone boxing, but it's yeah, definitely lovely to have you on here and we really, really appreciate your time and I cannot wait to see you both in person as soon as possible yes yes yeah i'm excited for that yeah yeah i'm excited for it to get warmer too so we'll be herping somewhere yeah that's gonna be great yeah all right well um we kind of

go through and see if there's any uh compelling or interesting things you've seen in the week as far as herp-related media or whatever in regards to reptile findings or interesting things. Any cool things you've seen this last couple weeks? Right. Yeah, I was trying to think. I think, again, I'm still kind of in that same space of I'm so intrigued by all the different success, particularly this is happening mostly where we are not right in terms of Southeast Asia and Australia. Those seem to really be heating up and they both video and, you know, the Australians are know that I have one specific one to hand to single out, but it does seem like there's been more. People have been having more success on the black soil plains, certainly in the last couple of years. And I'm still seeing some of that stuff in terms of Spencer's monitors and the lapids and things that are that are really difficult.

Yeah, exactly. And I guess a question that i have and doubtless vectors but my my question is sort of is it since it's such difficult habitat both logistically to get to and um and uh low uh low abundance and things that I do wonder, is the greater success we're seeing a product of particular conditions that are happening right now, like this year, last year? Or is there, to some extent, is it a reflection of the fact that people are seeing other people have success, so they're putting in the effort to go do it rather than viewing it as

something that's not possible. And that's just always sort of a question. And it certainly is in this context. Is it like, is there something different that's happening now? Or is this good year, bad year, you know,

or good couple of years compared to a decade of bad, you know, or is it because people have had success, other people are viewing it as worth the trouble? I think, obviously, you know, there's a lot that goes into it, you know, and that makes that speculation and wonderment all the better. But I do think, you know, they have had a lot more rain out there. I remember at least last year seeing a lot of that and, and where we've

seen, you know, kind of the lasting effects of a good year in an area like that, you know, could go for several years, but obviously last year with a lot of rain and then this year with people finding cool stuff, um, in good shape, maybe that those are tied together, but yeah, very, very cool to see people finding those species. And, I mean, I think I'll wait, of course, to talk about this, but we're going to have Jordan Parrott on here, hopefully in a few weeks after he gets back from his trip. But kind of some related topics in that regard and what he's finding out there. But I do, you know, we kind of hit on this a little bit in the context of, you know, planning a trip and several months before you go, especially if you're going overseas or something, you know, and trying to plan it so you have good conditions never really guarantees you're going to have good conditions, but, um, sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. Um, but you know, thinking, I, I thought about this topic a lot with, uh, Owen Pelley's because, um, the year you guys found one seemed like everybody was finding an Owen Pelley, you know, it was like that, that was the year to find an Owen Pelley. And, uh, you know, and in hindsight, if I would have

understood that I might've booked a ticket and gone out there and looked again, you know, just to, just to try to capitalize on, on a good year for Owen Pelley's. And I think that was borne out by, um, some of the searches that, uh, Dr. Gavin Bedford was doing, you know, when he was looking to build up his group of Owen Pellies and struggling to find anything and all his friends and people who were out there looking as well had had very little success for a few years. But then all of a sudden they find one and then another one and another one all in the same year. They just kind of start popping out now. Is that because they got better at finding or better at looking i don't know i think it might have been more the conditions or were right and things uh developed that way so it's hard to say

yeah absolutely right and obviously some of it's an access question too as we saw yeah for sure you know that our own experience of it um in 19 wasn't exactly replicable although i think i don't know the interesting part to me i think and in the same vein of what we discussed earlier with nipper was saying i do think now we've learned lessons that we can take and apply. So not only is it not checked off, so we need to go back. Yeah, it's there's an advantage to doing that again in the context of saying, OK, so the situation was pretty different five years on. And to the point where saying I definitely felt like I uh i knew much more than i did the first time but now i still need to go again to take kind of the updated information and say okay now what's what's practical and possible um that i couldn't learn from afar right and some of that was our experience

of it some of it was talking to different people um You know, some is sort of a mixture of both. We found a lot of interesting color that we didn't couldn't understand or know from before, well, I didn't know things like that. So this last trip was fantastic. And I, you know, I, I, I had some frustrations because, you know, the best laid plans, you know, can often be, um, so, and, and also things that you don't consider, like, is the area that you're going to on fire currently? And so that that plays into it as well. And having a good backup plan that was made very clear and abundantly clear on this last trip. But I do now I'm more excited to get back there. And, you know, especially knowing what we know now, having done the second trip and, you know, building on past experiences is really a and just the difference. You know, what I anticipated, especially in regards to like simple things like seeing geckos, we saw very few geckos on the road.

The strophurus is what I'm thinking of. But we also saw some rare and unexpected geckos. I know that that marmorata, I was not thinking we were going to find one in Kakadu. And most people probably wouldn't. And I didn't realize that was even an option. I knew they were in other areas that I was going to be looking. So I didn't even have them pegged in Kakadu, but then having you guys find that one and seeing that and, and then hearing retrospectively that those are a little hard to find or a little more rare in that area was pretty cool. And, you know, um, so,

you know, it's hard to plan for certain things and some things it's like, well, if you go to this area, that's where they are and you'll are and you you you'll have the best chance of finding them and others you know it's a little more difficult planning a trip to find you know a blue-tongued skink is is a little right different than planning a trip to find an endemic you know gecko that only appears in this habitat or something so yeah that goes into it for sure but yeah it is it is oh go ahead yeah yeah no i was i was gonna say you know in that same vein it's sort of uh in some in some ways i'm jealous envious right of your top end python list because well you're you're missing it's sort of an obscure situation, right? You're missing the hard one. Simultaneously, yours is very defined, you know, in the sense of the rest of us.

We're missing one, you know, seems to me. And maybe the answer is just go to Catherine and below and whatever. But at least within that area, the answer becomes they're sort of they could be anywhere, but they're probably nowhere. You know, which is difficult, right? It's not it doesn't have that. It's not intrinsically tied to one thing. And so, yeah, it's fair that the the real answer is, OK, if you if that's really the goal, you need to expand the place that we were trying to look that circumstances turned against us is just probably in terms of reliably finding them is the far northern end and if okay if that really is your goal then you need to go further and so i guess

you know relative to herping to the list the question because i would say that we didn't the trip was not it was a let's go to it was a kakadu trip rather than a trip to tick off that python that were that the rest of the group was missing, right? You had already seen it, you know, whatever. But that, yeah, the trip, despite hoping to see it and maybe ideating going back there based on, hey, let's try and do this one or whatever. In reality, it was more about a trip to fill your list than it was to fill ours because we weren't going to the places or certainly not maximizing our odds of finding the one that we were missing yeah that's true and i really appreciate that you know and i think you know those areas of course are beautiful in their

own right and going to kakadu is kind of a i think what struck me too is is my you know memory was had faded and i didn't i didn't remember the distance between the different sites. You know, it's like woodland for, you know, hundreds of miles and all of a sudden you see it or, you know, not hundreds of miles, but many miles. And then you see a rock out crop, you know, and like, I mean, obviously there's a lot of rock out crops through that area, but the access to those, I mean, like we were discussing there, there was a spot where we could have jumped off the road and hiked a few miles and gotten into some really cool escarpment country. But there's no road going in there. And, you know, hiking in there would have been pretty miserable in the heat of the day or in the light.

And going in after dark would have been kind of sketchy, too, not knowing, you know, not having a trail or not having a clear access point. But seeing that there had been some studies there and there had been records of, you know, cool animals, it would be neat to go explore those areas. But that would take a little bit more planning and, you know, thought and research to make that happen. You know, I kind of did that on my own and I didn't really bring it up to you until kind of last minute. But, you know, I didn't think it was going to be a realistic goal. But, you know, and in other areas, like you're just prohibited from going there. Right. So, you know, yeah, you could park and go.

But there's like signs that say do not get off the road and which you know is frustrating i guess that's kind of east coast herping versus west coast herping a little bit you know where in certain areas you're just not allowed to go places and you know now they're starting to put up gates and you know all sorts of things to prevent that so that can be uh difficult when you've planned something and then come to find out, oh, that plan is not achievable because of this or that or the other, or they tell you not to walk on the rocks. So you're limited in your searching to a trail that goes in a loop and you kind of walk the loop how many times and you go, okay, we didn't see it,

but was it waiting for me just on top of those rocks or, you know, that kind of thing? Absolutely. I mean, and that makes me think in a way that I hadn't hadn't conceived previously because the paradigm is so different. But maybe so Kakadu, it's, you know, all this national park, but there is still access restrictions and things in some ways. You know, when you're talking about the distance between things all this feels very west texas right you know which is very odd because it's you know all private land as opposed to all being this national park but in terms of um the actual practicalities of it that it actually really reminds me of that of like well we're in place x and the distance to go to place y to do an alternative it is pretty profound limited access for an entire for entirely different reasons all this stuff but yeah i wouldn't have put those two

together because they seem so different in terms of these but in terms of the experience um yeah i appreciate that yeah yeah and and i think too like uh you you know, Western Australia seemed a little easier to be able to do some of that, get off road or get, you know, although, you know, of course, by the cities, there's more eyes and people. But, I mean, I was up in, you know, I don't know if it's if you're not allowed or if it's even against the rules. You probably can go up there at dark. And I was, you know, up with a flashlight kind of just on the edge of town, up in the rocks, looking around for stuff. And, and, you know, somebody could have seen me up there and reported me or whatever. But, you know, I didn't have any issues that way. But, you know, you don't know if, hey, should I be doing this and in view of all these people, they're gonna, you know, come and question me or maybe and in the context of some of the experiences that Corey had on her trip over there and crazy. We had to have her back on to talk about that. I'd love to hear that. you know, that, that kind of aspect of, you know, there are some pretty serious consequences if, if people are allegating that you're collecting or, you know, handling reptiles when you shouldn't

be and things like that. So I don't know, it's a, it's a tricky kind of a fine line. You got to be careful. And so getting out into remote areas where there isn't anybody, you know, and you can kind of go hike off the side of the road if you want, and nobody's going to question you or come, come checking on you or something that there's some, there's some nice aspects of that, you know, and Western Australia surely lends itself to that, I think. And aside from a few, you know, more heavily visited areas, but yeah. Absolutely. Well, what about you? Anything? Yeah. I mean, I, the same kind of thing. I love seeing the season kind of come, come alive over in Australia and see, you know, all the posts and things like that. That's been really nice. Um, I, I think what I had a thought earlier, but it's left my head. So I think getting up early is not advantageous to me, especially staying up late. But yeah, I think same kind of thing. Just seeing the cool stuff that people are finding has been nice. Seeing some friends have some really good success over there is, is really exciting. Yeah. Oh, there was that, uh,

um, who found Alex, I think found a black headed Python. Um, was it Alex? Um, no, no, it was not. It was, um, Ryan Hart, um, posted a, uh, black headed Python that he found up in far North Queensland that was kind of aberrant looking looking kind of a different looking pattern and stuff. And so I, I asked him, is that typical for that area? And he's like,

no, these are, it's kind of weird looking. So that was kind of cool. Check out, uh, Reinhardt's find, uh,

Python find. Um, that was one that kind of stuck out to me. And then just some other, um, fun things that I'll probably save for future episodes because they involve some of our guests and some of the things that I've been thinking about since we're going to have Joe Mendelson on here soon. And he was a herpetologist at Utah State, and then he moved to Zoo Atlanta. And so kind of that move. And we're going to have him on more of a less than a reptile fight club context and more of a student of the serpent

context where we can kind of talk about his career and kind of some of the main things that he's found. He's really, really involved with amphibian declines and things. So I don't know how that's going to work out. I guess we still need to work that out with Eric. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of overlap,

but I will recommend listening to that once it comes out, if we can make that happen. He was very willing and had a date in the next couple of weeks in mind, but we're going to be gone now that I'm going to be gone with my family. So we're unable to make that work, but we'll get him on here soon and have a nice discussion. He's like the coolest herpetologist I've ever met. He's like, just like a rockstar, fun, you know, Ramones type, like cool guy. So should be a good discussion. So I'm looking forward to that. And then hopefully we'll get Jordan Parrott on here soon. I'm, I can't believe we haven't had him on. Yeah. He's, he's, uh,

really accomplished and cool field herper and just a great friend. So looking forward to having him on once he gets back from Australia and settled back in. So other than that, I, I think we can wrap it up and thank, uh, uh, um, rally pythons radio, uh, umbrella for hosting us and letting us put out this content and thank you guys for listening. And we'll catch you again next time for a tough.