Reptile Fight Club - Stress in Reptiles

Episode Date: March 4, 2022

In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the topic of stress in reptiles.Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to the edition of Ripped Off Fight Club. I am your host, Justin Julander. And digitally by my side, Mr. Chuck Poland. Digitally always by your side. Yep. He's always a phone call away. That's right. Sometimes I gotta call you. Yeah. Sometimes I forget, like tonight. We had a set for a time and we made it, I guess.

Yeah. We may not be the best prepared, so maybe you'll have a lot of feedback for us on this one. But we will fight anyway. I'm always good for a fight, man. We must fight on. Yes, we must. Yes. Well, anything going out there, going on in her plan?

I don't know. I was looking at the Tracy aid tonight and it's, it's raining here and they're just cruising. All of them are cruising around their cage. Like they don't know what the fuck's going on. So I don't know. The female doesn't look amazing right now. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm wondering if

my season's going kaput right now, but it's still, it's still early. I still got time. Um, so, you know, it's just, I was just kind of, I'm wallowing in my own, you know, what do you mean? She doesn't look positive. Yeah. She just, I just i mean you know they all got real dark like they do about this time but she just like i i don't know man i was just like i and you know maybe she's just they're just psyching me out who knows but yeah that's how it goes this time of year you know i just gotta just gotta woosah that that right off and just you know see what hopefully they do what they do but you know like i said it's still a little you know um usually mid what i say mid-june i think is when

the eggs usually get laid so i got you know yeah i got time so um but yeah just like not cool man when you get as much little as rain as we do in san Diego and you go in there and they're all just cruising around the cage, looking at you. Like, I don't know, like, like, like a party was going to happen, but it's not what you're supposed to be doing right now, man. Don't you know, there's a low pressure system outside. Yeah, dude. Get to breathing. Yeah. What the heck? uh yeah so there's that and um let's see listen to uh listen to npr uh the eric and owen um on the way home so yeah um good good listening to those i like i like listening to them when it's just the two of them. They're funny. It's a good,

good deal. Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully, hopefully people feel the same way about us. Yeah. Once in a while, it's fun just for us to fight.

But yeah, it is good to hear that. I haven't heard their show yet, so I need to listen that way. Well, there, there, there was a,

there was herb trips and things brought up and excitement to be had. And I, I saw that they're opening Australia back up. Yeah, that's exciting. Hopefully it'll really be. It won't just be a false alarm, you know. I'm not necessarily rushing to buy a ticket, but I really hope that it's true and they'll be open again for some tourism i'm i'm itching to get back over there it's been uh rough not being able to travel to australia in the last several years i'm not sure how much longer they're going to be able to drag this coveted thing on

did you see that i saw an article saying that the uh uh that the cdc is not is is holding back tons of data that they've collected about new variants and transmissibility and all kinds of stuff. And I'm just like, oh, that's not good. That's not good. Well, what does it matter if they put that information out? You got a third of the country going, who cares? We're doing what we want to do. Yeah, well, and that third can convince another third that, that it's all crap. Like it's, I don't know. It just doesn't, you know,

it's like, yeah, I mean, I, you know, who, and, and I don't know, you know, you, you can, you can, you can have an opinion on that stuff either way and it doesn't necessarily change anything. But I mean, I think for where we are, it's, it's time to, it's time to just get on down the road with stuff. Um, yeah, I mean, they're obviously the vaccine isn't exactly going to be you know personal protections that get taken and and protocols that need to be done and if we focus more on that and figure out how to move along with with life I think that's probably the the prudent thing at this point so yeah yeah my my aunt made it over to Tasmania where my cousin lives

so she and her husband made it over but but they had to do the whole, you know, two, two week quarantine and stuff. Yeah. So, you know, I, I don't know. It's hard to, hard to follow them, but it's just, I just really want to get over there. So. Yeah. Nope. Nope. No kidding. When are you going to, when are you going to make the pond jump? You're going to go over some, I need to tell your kids you're a little older or what you are just not on your priority list.

No, no, it is. I'm just, I just, I don't know. I need to, I just need to take the time to do it. I, I, you know, uh, work's just been one of those things where there's never a good time and so it's like and you know i gotta find somebody to take care of the animals my wife's not doing that uh so i uh you know it's just one of those things where it's like aligning all that stuff um excuses excuses no one wants to hear that shit well maybe we'll have to have a reptile fight club abroad go over to oh yeah yeah that'd be good right just run around fighting aussies yeah

like that'd be good the yanker wankers come over for for some fights yeah it is it is a little rough though because once you do go over you just itch to get back so well yeah see yeah i know i watch you and i'm like ah maybe i don't need the bug no it's not true yeah that's ridiculous it is it is worth it getting the bug it's yeah it's great over there yeah i'm uh gonna head down to mexico later this year one of my buddies invited me to go out on a trip to uh kind of it's mainland mexico but just across from the baja kind of straight south of tucson so nice should be fun yeah nice may be able to talk him into doing a little herping along the you know during the house it's not it's not like a herb trip not a specific herb trip what

are you just doing like a resort or something or what this is my canyoneering buddy so we're gonna go hit some canyons swim with some sea lions or something so yeah it should be fun yeah no birding no no this isn't a birding trip i'll look at birds sure yeah you're gonna you're gonna try and roll the life list. You're going to roll as much as you can into this. I know how you work. Well, it's hard not to look for stuff when you're me. I don't know. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. When, when's Mexico? Um, October.

You boys been to Mexico? That's awesome that'd be fun yeah that's your neighbor you're you're like pretty much on the border yeah like couple miles couple miles yeah yeah yeah cool well um i don't know my uh blackhead female went into shed and she's looking nice and big so i'm expecting some eggs out of her and your fingers are crossed. Yeah. I need to, I need to make her a little fake burrow or something that she can go in and layer eggs.

I need to get her a good nesting box that she'll want to go layer eggs in because she does not wrap them up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I probably said that five or 10 times on the podcast, but I really want to get these things to hatch this year. That's one of my big goals. No, I would say that. Yeah. And that's, I mean, I've heard it enough that I'm, I'm, I want her to take care of this for you too. So.

Yeah. I've got a nice group of Southern banded knobtail geckos, the wheeler eye. Nice. southern banded knobtail geckos the wheeler eye nice and uh they're they're you know they should be all primed and ready to go this year and uh should get you know hopefully can hatch that species out get a bunch of eggs this year is that uh have you hatched wheeler eye no i've i've had synctus but i haven't not really right okay so now they're separate species so yeah i can't count uh synctus for the species i see what you did there i got you i got now i now i gotta hatch these out but i i think i like the wheeler eye a little better i think they're that face pattern is just cool they have this reticulated face pattern that's a little darker and kind of

absent in the synctus but i love the way they're pretty cool. Their heads look and they're, yeah, they're, they're cool. Yeah. Very cool. Man. I, I tell you, so I had a, I bought a group from Casey Lazzig and then, um, John Irby, he's a green tree breeder. Yeah. Really cool guy. Like really just a super nice guy. But, um, so I, I met him at Tinley when I was there for the gecko symposium and he bought a male wheeler eye there. And I was just drooling cause I hadn't, didn't have any yet. And so I'm like, Oh, that's so cool. And I'm all staring at the one he bought, you know? And then, uh, he's like, he, he was getting them for his daughter just for a fun project. And I guess she kind of grew out of them or wasn't really as excited for him or something. And so he's like, Oh, you, if you want them,

you're welcome to them. Like, yeah, I do. Yeah. Like I know you're really excited about these and Tinley. So he sent them to me, you know, just that's legit. That's super legit. Yeah. I was really just overwhelmed with, you know, the generosity. Yeah. It's super nice guy. So I'm like, yeah, if you want any, any of my snakes, he's like, well, not right now, but maybe down the road. Yeah. Just say the word. That's the, I kind of like the, the old school way of,

you know, bartering and trading. It's sure. Seems a lot funner that way. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Get it, get it, get a gift from the Godfather on this, the day of his wedding. Is hello. I'm a favorite. Exactly. No, I don't think there is. It, I mean, he was anticipating anything in return, but I just figured I'd offer it.

But yeah, that's, that's, that does your heart good in the reptile world. For sure. I forgot to mention that during my reptile love club podcast last week. So I was not part of the love. Oh, you got plenty of love. I'm sure you are. I was? Oh, yeah.

Heidi and I gave a lot of good loving to the Chuck, man. All right. All right. Yeah, that's cool. That's cool. So I'm like to the Chuck man. All right. All right. Yeah. That's cool. That's cool. So I'm, I'm,

I'm like everyone else. I haven't heard, I wasn't there for the, for the, for the podcast. So I, I get to, I get to hear it on Friday with everyone else.

So, yeah. So, well, by the time you're listening to this, you've, everybody should have been able to listen to it. Well,

I know, I know I'm talking about when, you know, not now. When is that? Yeah. When will ben be now soon soon wait where is this we're in the now this is now i love that scene that's great that's a great movie that's an all-around great movie if you haven't seen space balls get out and check it out. Yeah. Get out from under your rock. Yeah.

I'm really hoping for some agurnia love this season. Are you ready? Yeah. Your agurnia are like adults now, right? Yeah. They should be ready to go. So just got to feed them up and keep them happy and hopefully they'll reward that. I'd like to revamp their cage, put in them happy and hopefully they'll reward that.

I'd like to revamp their cage, put in some nice fake rock and stuff like that. I just need to make the time and do it. You know, I, it's been just ridiculous. Today was ridiculously cold. It was just windy and just this icy wind. You know, I, I know you don't understand this. Yeah. I was going to say that's my favorite part of living in southern california the icy winds or not having any icy winds exactly yeah it's all the icy winds we get in southern california that's why i love living here

yeah you know it's you know it's a cold winter when it warms up to 32 and you're like oh it's really warm out today yeah yeah. 34 degrees. Nope. It's all relative. I mean, if it goes down to 70, you guys are putting on sweaters and jackets, like it's cold outside. And we, I, I drove my daughter to the bus stop today and, and, you know, kids are walking down the road in shorts and t-shirts and no coat. And it's like, you know, 30, 30 degrees or less outside i mean i hate to tell you this i hate to be the person who breaks this to you but even though if i wear a sweatshirt when it's 70 it doesn't make 32 degrees any warmer what i'm saying is it's all relative

it's all right so what to zero to freezing yeah when it's zero and you go up to 32 you're like this is nice and toasty oh my gosh it's crazy that's that's that's silly yeah it it is but you know what you know what you can't get in san diego frostbite my friend frostbite or or vitamin ski that was a vitamin ski for you guys whatever we got big bear oh big bear mountain get the hell big bear come look dude don't take your elitist ski take your elitist ski mentality out of here you all things are in california all things yeah well same with utah we got deserts we got yeah that's what i'm saying and that's a that's a definite selling point right yeah you're you're your ski is better than our ski but our

beach way better than your beach i don't know have you ever been to the beach on the great salt lake oh it's fantastic yeah see i i've been out to the salt and sea the brine flies are really fun it's not awesome but actually the the beaches of the great salt lake they they're they have round sand particles so the sand is really soft and like cushy almost it's really weird much different than other beaches yeah yeah i i heard it wasn't you know why and it's like you know why because it's not really a beach there's no ocean water yeah it's not the oceans it's an inland nobody's like the beaches of lake michigan nobody says that right they're like the shore that's the shore it is the shore but it is sandy so, but it is Sandy. So I mean,

I'll give you that. I I'll give you that, but I think it's like some dead animal, like with the calcium carbonate shell or something, you know, I don't know if it's real sand or not, but it's cool. It's cool.

It's an amalgamation of dead bodies. It could be nice. Yeah. But then there's Buffalo. You don't get Buffalo on your beach do you or bison i mean we get some strange in california but i haven't really you haven't seen i heard i haven't seen that one not yet see that's what you see on the beach of the on antelope island in the great south lake it's pretty cool yeah me and my dad went out there birding the other week and saw some coyotes like

walking across the ice that was pretty cool bunch of birds some great horned owls and stuff so it was fun some waterfowl there were like thousands or millions of these green wing teals and shovelers out there pretty crazy it's a good spot and then this last weekend we went out to the the bear river bird refuge and saw a bunch of cool we i think we saw 28 species it was like the backyard birding day where everybody gets out and goes no wait is this 28 species to your species count and oh by the way let's get a little update for the fans what is your bird species count now up to oh i started over this year but it hasn't changed in new species so the 28er ones that i've already seen but were new for this year not no i those weren't all new for this year there were a few new ones that i hadn't seen yet but

so do you consider it a bad year is it a bad year if you get less species than you saw the year before since you're starting over well so i'm kind of like not as heavily engaged in the competition aspect of it this year why because you dominated last year and you just dominated you hung your record book up and you're like yeah another record that cannot be broken like 50 species more than no than my cousin my dad but no it's you you you whooped your dad pretty good too oh yeah yeah i think the well there was a woman in uh in england that was in the competition somehow so and i think they have West over there, but she got second place and I think she had 230 and I think there's probably only like 260 species

in, you know, England in great. Are you saying that she might've been fluffing her numbers? No, I'm saying that she was a good bird. She was a real bird. So this year I'm, I'm a little cocky and confident, but I, you know, I still, there's still some out there that are probably pretty easy to find. I did go looking for a few new species and I missed out. Like I, I may have seen them, but I didn't get a good ID on them. They just, this, these little birds flew through the canyon so quick. I saw them, but I couldn't get a good picture or a good ID on them. So I may have seen a new species, but I didn't get a picture. So I can't count it. But I thought I found a new species out in the Bear River.

It was a little sparrow, but it turned out to be a swamp. I thought it was a swamp sparrow, but it turned out to be a song sparrow. So they look very, very similar. So I was kind of bummed out. And it was singing. So that should have been a clue. Like had this really intricate song. So that might have tipped me off but you know yep so now my species count remains the same as it did at the end of last year so all right all right just you know

thanks for rubbing it in congratulations on first place for last year good luck good luck this year this year yeah i'm taking a little milder approach and a little calmer this is why you need australia right yeah because you last year was the birds this year must be australia yeah yeah no i i don't think i'm gonna hit australia this year unfortunately, um, I think the NPR guys might be headed over there at the end of the year, but you're not, no, no, no, I can't make it. Well, I'm going to, I'm going to Mexico around the same time they're going to Australia. So, Oh, okay. I didn't, I guess I, yep. Oh, yeah. I'm headed out to your neck of the woods.

We're gonna go. Yeah. Yeah. That'll be cool. Yeah. Southern California. I, I still wanna see those, uh, geckos, the, I think they're leaf toed geckos that are out on the rocks out there and in the, in your neck of the woods.

And then, um, I still need to see a California King snake in the wild. Isn't that sad? That's so funny. It's weird yeah and i've looked i mean i've looked i've seen them dead on the road plenty of times just yeah why if it's driving me yeah i need to find a way to scam in on this but uh oh you know you got away i got cash i got cash to throw on it uh if i if i can find it you just got to make the time yeah dude i'll be there i mean all right hey listen i'm not

i'm not crashing any parties so if i don't get it no no i don't get a thumbs up then i'm not i'm not trying to no no you're in man i'm not trying to be a weird third wheel not at all not at all then i'm down the guiding wheel i'll be there end of march right end of march right yep okay i'm. I'm down. I'm down. I'm doing it. Sounds good. I'm counting on you.

I won't let you down this time. All right. Yeah, I was a little disappointed. I know. I never heard the end of it. Still coming up. Yell at me down again or it's going to just continue full force. All right.

Oh, you've never been busy. Hey, you got to make time for Herpin. I got that. No, listen. Man. Tough crowd. Yeah. I'm glad I got love in the love club.

Yeah. Because that show is over. It's over. It's done. You'll have to listen to it over and over right all right well what are we fighting today you're gonna talk about what was it i don't remember i was trying to you had the list didn't you didn't you say can we talk about

yes oh my gosh all right well let's let's debate stress is all stress bad is there good stress so I guess we'll take it from the whoever wins the coin toss can pick if they want to

talk about good stress or bad stress and we'll go talk about stress the pros and cons i guess of stress you're stressing me that's not good yeah i'm stressing you well you'll know you'll know the topic well so oh my god all right you're ready to win the coin toss yeah okay let's see yeah let's go ready let's do this do it tails oh man it's tails this is your year telling these people i know it's up crap okay well what what side do you want so wait wait pro stress so stress is good stress is bad well see uh there's both sides listen listen listen listen we're gonna have to define this topic a little because it's not as simple as just stress is good stress is bad i i will say i will say i am pro for the for the good stress okay i think there's good stress and i think there's bad stress

so maybe i'll say well you promote the good stress and i'll promote the bad stress how does that sound that sounds unfair for you but let's do this oh no i i can handle it i can handle the stress is bad side that works for me is that what you're saying? Pro bad stress? No, I'm saying that some stress is bad or that's what I'm saying. Okay. So you're saying some stress, some stress is bad and I'm saying some stress is good. Yeah. Okay. All right. I'm just trying to get this straight so i don't just start talking like an idiot and well we again i was i was a little ill prepared for this one i

clearly set up a time and i was like oh i'll be there and then i wasn't there and chuck's calling like where are you i'm like oh that was we talked about that an hour ago my unpreparedness is on display right now i don't think you're getting to see how the sausage is made. Yeah. Yep. We're going right through the meat grinder right now. Not pretty. Not pretty.

Yeah. Okay. Well, let's try to make a decent conversation out of this. Hopefully, I didn't turn off everybody talking about birding and COVID restrictions, but let's get into it. So- I'm curious. Would you like to go first, Chuck?

I believe that is, as the Cointos winner, I believe that is for me to decide and you can go first, sir. I should have known. I should have just launched into it. What am I thinking? Giving you the courtesy of being a decent human. Listen, listen. Using your luck to your advantage is just not, man.

I like that you're apologizing as the coin toss loser, but no need, no need. Excuse me. Excuse me. I have my fork. Carry on. All right. So, of course, we know stress can be a very, um, negative thing in our collections. We see this all the time. Um, you get in an animal and from, you know, it could be a captive bred animal from a nice collection and you get it in and all of a sudden it's got issues. And that could be, you know, it's mainly due to the stress of shipping, you see stress when an animal is shipped. And especially if it's like an import, you have very low success rates with imports that are shipped over the course of, back in the day, over the course of months sometimes, and now probably over the course of weeks or hopefully days, hopefully they're a little less stress involved with the shipping, but nevertheless,

they, uh, tend to take a long time to recover and to get into a routine. So having that stress can definitely negatively negatively impact. And so, you know, obviously it's, it's much better to get captive bred specimens in your home country, um, rather than trying to import something from the wild, you'll have a much better success rate if you avoid that stress of shipping. Over to you, Chuck. All right. Well, um, I mean, I think that you're potentially overlooking, you know, some things. I think that, you know, while stress is generally an issue, it's often accompanied, let's say in the example of imports by things like dehydration, poor health, parasitic infections. So, you know, I think that, you know, when you have an animal that is nice and healthy, it's being well taken care of, it's well hydrated,

it can manage stress much, much better than an animal that's being assaulted on either front. Now, you can see the reverse of that. We all say like, oh, well, you know, once there's a parasite load or once they're dehydrated and stress sets in, they go downhill. Well, if that's the case, then the inverse is also true, right? So if the animal doesn't have a parasitic load and the animal is well taken care of, then the stress is more manageable, right? And stress is just a properly managed, um, I think, um, you know, uh, I think there's all types. And I, I personally think that, that, uh, resource stress can be a trigger for breeding. Um, so I think certain, certain stressing animals in certain ways, uh, often elicits behaviors like reproduction, if they feel like, you know,

the the environmental conditions are okay, and maybe they're, they have enough stored resource, and, and they say, Okay, I can do a reproductive event. You know, because, for whatever reason, resources scarce or at the time, they may go ahead with that. Right. The idea of, oh, gosh, I got to reproduce. Or if I don't, this might be something that takes me down and I never get to reproduce. And that's the end of it. it yeah i you know i can did you just say yeah like like you're yeah i can i can see where that might be you know the case to some extent but i'm sorry what was that i wonder why uh you know was that the case maybe it could that's the case but you know more importantly you know you see you see animals in the wild that they have parasite loads and they're doing just fine you know sure so so bringing them into captivity you know and stressing why but why is that because monkey poking them yeah but is that because they have uh access to resource that they need or is that what do you mean well like i.e that they may have a

water source or or they may be able to be hydrated or they have food uh you know i.e they're not leveraging multiple factors whereas when they're put in a box and then they don't have the ability to make resource decisions uh or to meet their needs that that stress compounds with the other shortcomings that they have going on. And it causes kind of an amplified issue. Sure. Yeah. And, you know, I would say that there are definitely negative stressors in the wild because you do see animals that, you know, I, I, I would say that there are definitely, uh, negative stressors in the wild because you do see animals that, you know, go through drought or go through a long time without food and they get very skinny and, and may not be able to mitigate the, the, uh, negative effects of the environment. And so you'll see animals out that are just

emaciated and, and then maybe the parasite load takes hold and things. But I mean, I think having a hairless ape poking you, you know, or trying to get you out of the cage and hold you. I am not hairless, sir. Yeah. My buddy can comb his whole body in one stroke. Oh my gosh. But anyway, yeah, that's. Don't let Owen know that.

Yeah. He's looking for Yetis. He, he, he, I, I figured that out by the way. So I figured out when Owen is part Bigfoot, that's why he doesn't want to be discovered. So that's why he's, you know, he's hiding in plain sight kind of idea. So I think he shaves part of it, you know, shaves his face or something. Anyway. Yeah. So, and he won't hear that cause he didn't listen to the podcast. That's correct.

So yeah, having, having somebody, you know, manhandling you, that's, that's probably stressful for most species of reptiles. They, they aren't used to, you know, being grabbed or now that's a huge stressor in their life and will increase those cortisol levels and, and negative things can occur as a result of that. Um, so I would say the, the, that act of, you know, being put into captivity, being poked and prodded by the hairless monkeys and so forth would be a very large contributor to stress in a captive environment. I do think the things you mentioned are also stressors, but I think they're maybe less so. I think probably the human interaction is probably one of the biggest stressors that they can go through. Sure.

Well, I mean, I think that they are subject to predation out in the wild, and that's a huge stressor. And they seem to manage that just fine. I mean, unless, you know, you have all these traci just dropping dead in the wild because they're potentially preyed upon by something that that doesn't doesn't seem to be the case. So certainly when you get them into captivity, they can become stressed. And and oh, by the way, I mean, I. Far be it from me, I may I may support say something that I don't totally agree with, but there's really no objective evidence that it's stress that's killing this. That is the magic killer of all these animals. I think that it probably has something to do with it. But is that the primary reason that that, you know, we have animals drop dead?

I don't know. I mean, there's, there's definitely studies performed that kind of measure different stressful activities on cortisol levels in, in animals, including reptiles. And so, you know, some of this has been quantified. Of course you're right. It's hard to, hard to determine what a healthy level of stress and an unhealthy level of stress is and where that but you're also doing that in i mean okay so in in captive bred animals that are probably overheated and overfed and then and then they're stressed is it is it the stress that gets them or is it being fat and and and having their metabolism ramped way up because they're kept too hot all the time. I mean, it's obvious if they're crapping out their intestine that that was probably the

cause of their demise rather than stress, you know, and cortisol levels. But, you know, obviously you can have, you know, if an animal goes without water for an extended period of time, that's used to a humid or a, you know, water full environment and they go without water for extended period of time that can be lethal to the animal and then obviously it wasn't the stress that killed them it was it was going without water same with us you know we can be stressed or or we can you know die of thirst but right so pretty quickly so yeah so again so again it's to me it's not necessarily always about the the stress being so we talk about stress like it's the primary killer of animals and i don't think that that's the case because stress is a natural environmental

i'm not trying to put words in your mouth i'm just i'm just saying uh, you know, that, that, yeah, we mess up a lot worse ways than stressing our out. Well, and just sit there and say that, and to sit there and say that, yeah, oh, it's, you know, stress is the big culprit. That's, that's what it is like. Well, really? Okay. I mean, yeah, I, I, I think stress is a factor, but I don't necessarily think stress is. I mean, you we would not be successful as animals, anybody, anything on this planet if stress was the primary reason that we all died. Yeah, I want to go back to something you said that about the predator stress of predators. Do do animals. You know, I'm just asking this in general, do animals have that attitude of all the time that, Oh, I'm going to be prey

for something, you know, I'm, I'm sure they're keeping a lookout, but like, you know, those kinds of things happen quickly. So they have adaptations to stay out of sight of predators. You know, I think they said that green tree pythons, the reason the babies are colored differently is to be kind of invisible to avian predators when they're younger and more diurnal. And then as they become nocturnal, you know, they change to that green.

And, you know, a lot of shifts occur with that where they move into the forest a little more and they're more nocturnal in their behaviors and things. So obviously most reptiles have some way to evade predators kind of built in. Right. And I mean, anytime I would take out my Rankin's dragons out to an outdoor enclosure and put them out in the sun. And I mean, they'd have their eyes on the skies and they'd be stressed out. And if you walked over a shadow over them, they'd gape and freak out, you know, and try to hide. So, you know, they know, like when they're in a cage, they're not doing that. And so,

you know, they know certain environments may, may pose a greater risk. Um, if you, if, you know, if that fits or maybe it's just exposure to that UV light, lets them behave differently or more naturally. I don't know. I'm not exactly sure what that is, but I, I don't think they're running around their whole lives with some huge cortisol spike because every day they're afraid something's going to eat them. You know what I mean?

Like, I think it's just kind of inherent in their DNA that they're, they have adaptations to hide from predators or to be undetected. But I imagine once a predator grabs them, the stress levels might spike, you know, and they might get away. And certainly lots of reptiles have defense behaviors like the frill and a frilled lizard or the blue tongue and a blue tongue lizard, you know, those kind of things to ward off predators or to try to give them a chance to escape, you know, predation. So what do you think the natural mechanism of young snakes tending to be nervous is about? Well, and I think they just adapt behaviorally, right? So younger animals, you don't, you don't see them out in the open very often. They're usually hiding, looking for prey undercover, maybe most of the time, whereas it doesn't mean that they don't

recognize themselves as a meal. Oh, that's what I'm saying. But I don't know that they're walking around full stress all the time because they could be a meal at any second. You know what I mean? Like, I think there's some, there's some balance to that or there's some, you know, they can't go around full stress all the time because they could be a meal at any moment. Right. So there has to be some, you know, I'm sure the, you know, they, they get stressed when, when a predator comes near or if there's a close call or if they have to fight, you know, fight and flight kind of thing. But for the most part, they probably low stress because their natural adaptations keep them out of sight, primarily from predators or their behavior, you know, living undercover things or being nocturnal. It's just a guess. i don't have data to

back that up maybe a future episode we can dive more into the weeds on this and yeah i mean i all levels and things i think talking about what a a young snake experiences uh might be a little premature but i mean i i definitely think that you can look at the difference between young animals and older animals and you can see a big difference in behavior and i think that behavior is born out of a uh you know uh uh an epigenetically past or even a genetically past fear of predation. And I think, you know, cortisol is a hormone that's used to enforce that kind of fear. That stress is a mechanism to keep them. I mean, if they didn't have it, they would not, you know,

I mean, how do humans't have it, they, they would not, you know, I mean, how do humans behave when they have no cortisol? But as awareness stress, that's a, I guess that's my thing. I mean, you can be aware that they're, you know, I guess we have a huge, you know, kind of a natural, um, uh, reaction, whatever to that, you know, rattlesnake rattle or something if if you know you've for some reason you hear that rattle and it kind of makes the hair on your neck stand up or whatever now the same way that a rankin's dragon outside sees a shadow and is like yeah it could be a bird overhead or something yeah so so there are cues to kind of give you warning. Stimulus input. Yeah. Or I mean a bear, you know, growl or, you know, something, you know, those kinds of things can, can really,

so that's what I'm talking about is like, I don't think they're walking around full on stress, high cortisol levels all the time because they could be a meal at any moment. I think they take evasive maneuvers or they have certain behaviors that keep them maybe out of sight of the predators but but then when there's a close call like a shadow overhead or you know some cue that a predator is near um you know smell or sight or whatever then all of a sudden they're gonna maybe have a have a spike in the level and. Yeah, and I think it's pretty well documented that, at least in humans, that we have a certain level of cortisol in our system at all times. And when we go through traumatic events, those cortisol levels spike. And if we have a long history of traumatic events, that those high cortisol levels can actually be transmitted through epigenetics to our children, i.e. we live in a stressful time,

we are going to deliver that high stress hormone to our children because they're going to be born into that. So, I mean, yeah, you know, I, I think that for, for what it's worth and, you know, I, I, I think that, so one, you have to be able to manage that, that, that has to be something that has to be able to be managed. And, you know, frankly, if you're in a captive environment by kind of what you were saying, if, you know, and if the food monkey's not grabbing you, then you shouldn't, you really shouldn't have a high stress level, right? You're not, you're not subject to predation. Older animals can sit out. They pretty much know when there's food coming. They know they're not, they know there's, there's no predators there. So, so where's the stress? If you're not handling

your animals, where's their stress? But, but yet they fall over dead from stress. Sure. You see what I'm saying? Like, I don't make sense. Yeah. I'm not saying that they fall over dead from stress. I'm saying stress contributes to things. And, and, you know, if you, if you have a, if you have a high cortisol level, you're less likely to fight off infection. So any opportunistic bacteria or virus might take hold if in a stressed animal versus an unstressed animal, you know what I mean? Like you always see, um, you know, background bacterial or viral infections kind of pop up during the breeding season when you're introducing animals to other animals. And we know that, you know, reproductive events increase cortisol levels.

And there is some stress associated with breeding. And that's a basic primal, like, you know, basal function of all living things. So, I mean, the fact that stress is inherent in the most kind of a survival of the fittest. If you don't have a background, you know, viral infection or bacterial infection, maybe, you know, that stress isn't as big of a factor, you know. Sorry, I'm getting texts for some reason. Settle down people. If you've got, you know, kind of that background infection, the stress is going to bring that out. But if you don't have that, then that gives you an advantage. I don't know. You know, maybe your immune system's a little stronger. But you're talking about like, I think, I think you got to separate out the, the, the, the, you know, the infection from the stress, right?

If the infection's not there. The infection or the stress. Right, but my point is if the infection's not there, the stress doesn't matter. Yeah, potentially for normal events, yeah. But like saying getting shoved into a crate or, you know, that kind of thing. So, so my thing is like, it's not stress that kills, kills imports. It's people not taking care of them and bringing them in under shitty conditions for long periods of time. And yes,

they get stressed, but what fucks them up isn't, isn't necessarily the stress. Now is that, is that whole shot true? No, but I would argue that if they were healthy and that they were well taken care of, I mean, what's the survival rate on, you know, like Dan Mullery's stuff that he brings in versus, you know, some of the flesh peddlers of the industry? Yeah. So probably night and day. And is that because they suffer different levels of stress or is it because of how those, the conditions in which those animals are imported? Yeah, obviously there can be, you know, those things are a great factor for demise of, of imported reptiles, you know? I mean, let's look at Tracy, you know, everybody talks about them just dropping dead out of nowhere. You know, what's the cause of that?

Are they just weak snakes? No. Are they dropping out of trees in the wild? No way. I mean, is it partially because of stress? Well, I think it has to do with, I mean, are you asking my personal opinion? Yeah. All right, I'll give it to you.

You think stress plays a role? No, I think people used to keep them hot and moist and and now i keep my animals cooler and i'm not saying that they don't stress out because i see stress in them but when you're not keeping them moist in a high bacterial environment and you're not heating the shit out of them so you're not rubbing their metabolism and then stuffing them full of food like you're you're unloading all of these things that that that actually contribute to making that stress uh something that that is more of a tipping point where the stress is not a problem if you're not overloading them yeah if you're keeping them how they are used to being kept if you're not changing their environment. Yeah, if you're keeping them how they are used to being kept,

if you're not changing their environment. So I guess that's the point. So i.e., they can manage stress unless you put them in environmental conditions that leverage that normal stress. Yeah, which also occurs in the wild. I mean, if there's flooding events or, you know, there's adverse winter events or something, you know, something that can, can really swap things up or change things up for reptile population, you know, um, now is it the cortisol levels that are killing them? I don't

think so. You know, they're not that acute or whatever, but is it a contributor? I would say most definitely I'd say, you know, if you have these things occurring, that will increase your cortisol levels, therefore increasing your, you know, stress as we, we name it. So, so I was, I was in, you know, the other part of this, like is, you know, how we keep in captivity, uh, you know, you're, we, we keep looking back to these wild populations and saying, well, they're not just falling over dead in the wild. Well, how different are they being kept? Like, so example, I actually went and got weights on my three-year-old Tracy A.

And I don't have a single animal that's over 400 grams. And I think if you were to tell most keepers that, they'd be like, what the hell? Like three years old and 400 grams. That's ridiculous. But you know, the three feet long and they're lean and they're really, they look really healthy to me. So, you know, I, I, again, it goes to like, you know, what's happening in the wild versus what's happening here and i i think if you were to shove tons of food into those animals and and heat them really uh you know a lot they'll grow but that it's that's not i mean you're just you're saying that negative stress of increased feeding and increased heating

is contributing negatively to their no what i'm saying is that when you overfeed them you overheat them and you make them you live in a bacterial incubator oh so it's a long area that's killing them well i mean that's could be one it could be a it could be some weird virus it could be It could be a lot of things. But the point is, do you believe that my Tracy A are any less stressed than anybody else's Tracy A? Because my animals are how old now? You don't mess with them? I don't mess with them.

It's young animals, so maybe they adapted. Were they not stressed then? I mean, they didn't eat when they came in. I had to drop feed them and get them to start eating. And I never gave them hides. I just let them sit in the cage and live in that normal background of stress. But I didn't add to it by being the food monkey grabbing them. Do you believe that because I did that, my animals were less stressed than anybody else's animals?

I mean, obviously, you're reducing things that stress them out, right? You're reducing the things that add stress to their lives, like high heat. And, you know, for something that doesn't come from a high heat environment, it's going, oh, crap, you know, it's too hot. I'm stressed. You know, the cortisol levels go up if it's too wet. Oh, what is going on here? It's too wet. I don't live in a wet environment. So that's increasing my stress. All these things kind of compound to a point where it's like a tipping point and they just can't cope with all the things that are thrown at them and they drop dead,

you know, no obvious like tumor or viral infection. They just. But is it the stress that does that? No, it's not the stress. It's not the stress one bit. It's the keeping. It's the environmental. It's not the stress at all?

No, it's not the stress. One bit? No, I don't think it is. Oh, I think you're out there. Because my animals have the same stress. They have the same. Well, they don't. They have the same stress.

Because they don't have the high heat. They don't have the same stress. Well, they don't. They have the same stress. Because they don't have the high heat. They don't have the high humidity. They don't have the things that you said were contributing negatively to their survival, which is stress. So I don't look at an environmental result, i.e. high heat, high humidity, that's a source of stress, potentially, right? So they can be stressed. They can have a stress level, right? And that stress level is a baseline, right? And then when they get heated and that revs up their metabolism, right? Sure. And now that baseline of stress plus that revved up metabolism plus that extra food,

it doesn't necessarily have to change their stress level, but you're taxing their body. But it does. That's what I'm arguing is it does increase their stress levels. I get what you're saying. I get what you're saying. I get what you're saying. But for the sake of this argument, I'm not going to be like, yes, that's what increases the stress level and kills them.

Because for what I'm saying, listen to what I'm saying though. What I'm saying is that anybody else's tracier has the same stress level as my tracier. I have done less to make them comfortable in their environment i just did things differently like i didn't you know overheat them and i didn't over you know over moisture you know over moisture the cage and i didn't overfeed them i think all of those are contributing factors to pushing them over the edge. And when

they drop dead, when they drop dead, is it because they were stressed or because they were in the wrong environmental conditions? I don't know that we can make that call. That's, I guess that's my argument is, you know, obviously we can measure cortisol levels, but you know, it's very difficult to diagnose why animals are dying. Like we have this problem in our virology lab, we infect them with a virus and the virus, you know, has impacts to the, to the system, but to pinpoint what is the cause of death, it could be a number of different things. You know, their heart could give out because it's beating more rapidly, or it could be a neurologic thing. You know, they kill too many neurons or something.

So they can't send proper signals and they get paralyzed and, you know, end up dying because they they can't breathe right. You know, the nerves to their lungs aren't functioning correctly. So, I mean, it's very difficult to say what is causing the death. And yeah, there could be a number of things like, but, but I, what I'm saying is like, so you're, you're maybe saying that each, each thing has, has like a, an equivalent unit of stress, but I'm saying think some things are more dramatically stressful and damagingly stressful to animals, such as an animal that comes from a relatively cool environment being thrown into a hot box, you know, and being pumped with food, um, that could be a much greater stressor than being,

well, you see overheating around the food monkey. Yeah. But you see, you see, we got to pause here real quick, real quick. I got a shout out to Mike Stefani for the food monkey. That's such a great reference, but anyway, I, I didn't want to neglect that giving Mike credit for that one. But, um, those things, you know, we, we don't know like necessarily how much those things increase stress. So what I'm saying is there could be some things that are much more stressful and could contribute to the demise of the animal more so than others. So maybe being around a human or, you know, and realizing, wait, this thing's not trying to eat me. It's actually bringing me food and it's bringing me water and it's, you know, whatever.

Then it starts, those cortisol levels may plateau or maintain, you know, at a reasonable level where it's not damaging to the animal. So they can get used to or, or adapt to those higher, you know, in the beginning they were high stress environments or high stress interactions. And later they kind of plateau or mellow out to a manageable or, or baseline or background stress level is kind of what I'm saying. Whereas other things like, you know, throwing a, a cooler animal into a hot box, that's just a stress they can't overcome. And so whether it's the, you know, the combination of factors like the stress, the high cortisol levels can, can, I don't, I'm not sure, you know, what the physiological mechanism is of, of their death, but, you know,

definitely that stress was not helping the, you know, the animal, the things, those stressors increase the negative impacts of, of their environment? You may speak. Give me the silo tree. That's not going to win the argument. It's just, I mean, whatever. Whatever. Does that not sound reasonable? I mean, I guess.

I mean, okay. Okay. You know, who wants to argue with a doctor anyway? God got it all figured out. Oh no, no, no. I don't know. I mean, I hope you can tell Jack about the subject, but yeah, I know that was, that was an eloquent shoot from the hip, but, um, no, I mean, I think there that, that I look, I think that, you know, what you're saying is completely plausible, but we don't swab cortisol levels to, and quite frankly, what an unsafe cortisol level even looks like in a reptile. So, I mean, you know, and, and, and quite frankly, there's enough that I think, I mean, look, how many, how many reptiles that are perfectly healthy only live like eight nine ten years is and and their their

lifespan is you know something like twice that and we're like oh yeah no that that's about right no so i mean to be like well it was probably stress it could have been a lot of shit so is stress a factor in it yes but i think oftentimes we want to turn around and we want to just like you know the great sir isaac newton uh who you know on his summer um you know invented algebra smart. Um, but when he couldn't explain something, he chalked it up to magic. So even the smartest humans on the planet, uh, are, are often, you know, relegated to mysticism when they can't answer questions. Uh, and so I think it would not be behoo of us to give stress too much credit. need to eliminate before when your animal drops dead for no unseemly reason to say, well, that was stress. Okay. Was it? Yeah. I mean, obviously, yeah, we don't have the design, but I mean, there are definitely studies that have been performed to look at those kind of things, looking at cortisol in the blood and things.

And I mean, obviously, I mean, that's fine, but that's like, what is the what is the what is the what is the what is an unsafe level of cortisol? Yeah, right. Yeah. There's a study in green sea turtles or green turtles that talk about, you know, they measured cortisol levels in healthy animals and those with those fiber papilloma, the nodules that sometimes those sea turtles get and compared the levels and looked at, you know, how, how that affected them and stuff. So obviously, you know, your cortisol levels are higher in the animals that were affected by those papillomas versus the control or the, the normal animals that are out swimming happy in the sea without them. So obviously you can say, well, they've got a disease. They've got some issue and that's impacting them in some way. And so the cortisol levels are going to be higher.

It makes a lot of sense. And so I guess taking that, you know, so higher cortisol levels are accompanied by disease is that something we could say yeah we would i mean disease causes higher cortisol levels that's that's kind of the idea i guess and so that's maybe the issue maybe the issue is more around disease well this is just one study i mean i imagine if you if you took cortisol levels in your tracy and stuck you know half of them in a hot box and the others in in more naturalistic conditions they would be like oh you know my cortisol levels are higher you know in the in the hot box ones um versus like a if you had a uromastyx and you stuck uromastyx in the hot box

it would probably have great cortisol levels and the ones that were in the cooler areas. But I guess, and I guess my point is, is let's say we did that study, right? And we stuck, we stuck half the Tracea in a hot box, a hot wet box and the other half in a cool, you know, cool dry box. And then we- Now you're, now you've got two factors. Just do one factor. Okay, fine. Then you can compare the box and then we now you're now you've got two factors just just whatever one factor okay fine then you can compare the two and see if it compounded you know what okay so then then all right captain scientist you get your results so you get your results

and what you find out is that the animals in the hot box had higher cortisol levels okay so what you say they're stressed that hot you can say keeping them in in an incorrect hot environment when they don't come from the hot environment causes stress the stressor causes stress and so to to keep your animals at a healthy stress level don't keep them too hot you know so so yeah if you keep your animals at a healthy stress level. Don't keep them too hot. So if you keep your animals correctly, you reduce their stress. I would say so, yeah. I mean, yeah. But I'm curious, too, about where you said you kept your Tracy A with no hide boxes. I mean, what did you do that for?

Just because I'm a mean person. You just wanted to watch him squirm. Well, I mean, I, so first of all, I like, I think, I think that, that come on now. He knows, he knows. So, or she, yeah, that's he. Yeah. She will start here in a minute, but, um, I, I think that you, wow. Um, you have to be able to, uh, I, I once had a, my cousin had a, uh, veiled chameleon, right. And they would handle it all

the time and like, take it out and like, let it walk around the house and stuff. And I was thinking, man, this chameleon is going to be dead in a, in a couple of days, you know, with all the handling it's getting and all the carrying around and stuff. But that thing lived longer than most chameleons in captivity do. Like it was just fine and lived a long and healthy life. So, um, you know, there's, there's something I think they can kind of normalize. So, so back to my original statement before I was really interrupted by my dog. Um, no, I, so, I mean, when they came in, they were obviously super stressed out. They were, you know, they weren't eating, they weren't, you know, like,

um, so my thought was get them comfortable in their environment. And I think you see a lot of people who get, and, you know, maybe this is, this is a, you know, more like dog training that I am in my mentality than, than reptile keeping. But it was like, Hey, if you, if you make them secure in the environment that they're in, you know, you don't have them hiding in all of these places, you kind of show them, um, Hey, that, you know, you don't, there, there's nothing there, there is nothing here. That's going to, to get you. I'm going to leave you alone.

The there's no predators here. You're out in the open. You're fine. Nothing's happening to you. And, uh, Oh, by the way, after a while they were like, yeah, I'm fine. There's nothing happening to me. And oh, by the way, after a while, they were like, yeah, I'm fine. There's nothing happening to me. Okay. And then they started behaving like, you know, every average scrub that you've ever come across. So I think, you know, my mentality around that was that they're stressed anyway. They have a level of stress to them that's just, it's there. And you

can manage that stress as, you know, in the most logical way possible, but you're probably not going to eliminate it. And so the faster they can come to terms with the idea that they're fine, there's nothing going to eat them, they don't need. So it's kind of like with monitors, right? Like when you socialize a monitor, right? It realizes, okay, I don't have any reason. Like this isn't what I thought it was. It's okay. This food monkey is I thought it was. It's okay. This food monkey is just bringing me food,

and he's not going to hurt me or whatever. And I'm not trying to say that monitor lizards and snakes are the same. They're not. But I think if you're able to show them, hey, you're good in these four walls, then all of a sudden they, their stress level comes down and, and they operate at more of that basal stress level. Whereas if you're giving them all these hides and all this like shit to hide behind and all this, you're to me, in my mind, in my thought press, you were perpetuating that idea that there's something to hide from. Why? I mean, like if you just out and out, show them there's no reason to hide. There's nothing,

you know, nothing's going to get you. Here's food. I leave it right here. I don't mess with you. You know, they get over it faster than if you were to just perpetuate the idea that, oh, I put lots of cover here because you need to hide. Here, there's all these places for you to hide, so you need to hide. Yeah, and that would be an interesting study to see kind of how those cortisol levels normalize or go down. Or if they remain high and the animal just gets used to it or, you know, what, how that works out. Because I do think there is kind of a tipping point. There is some level of good stress where, you know, where they can adjust, you know,

do their thing and not, not get, you know, fall to, you know, opportunistic infections or, or they don't shut down and not reproduce because they're stressed, you know, those kinds of things. So I think there is a level that, you know, of course that they're used to and they can handle. But, you know, once, once they, once you add, add up the, the negative stressors that can definitely negatively impact the animals. And, you know, I mean, again, I really think that it's those physical environmental stressors that are the things that are really the ones leveraging negative outcomes. I don't think an unreasonable lack of security is what is driving their stress level high.

I think those environment, you know, those missteps in and keeping that drive that those stressors. I think that's in my mind, that's what's causing a lot of the issues. Sure. Can I back that up? No, other than my animals have been fine and I don't keep them hot or wet or, you know, like, you know, it's just, it's just worked for me. So I think in captivity, you need to be looking for those clues, you know, those cues that say, this is probably the, they're not enjoying this environment. You know, like if you, if you've got a too hot and they're always away from the basking light, they're, they're in the coolest part of the enclosure. Um,

I had a friend that, uh, was, uh, walked into, you know, this collection and there was a cage that had a Womas in it. And the Womas were like, would never eat. And they were like, wait, you know, they were always in certain area of the cage and there was no you know no documentation on what was going on with them and stuff and so he went in and he measured the temperatures in the cage and like it was like the coolest part of the cage was like 92 degrees and he's like why is this so hot and they said well we had some ackeys in here and the ackeys you know we got rid of them and and then we just put the Womas in there. Cause they kind of come from the same environment, you know, it's like, oh boy, that's, he's like, okay, first off, you know,

that's a failure to articulate. Exactly. And I mean, obviously the monitors do great in that environment and they were just fine, but the, but the WOMA is not so much. And so, and they just weren't paying attention to the behaviors. Like, you know, you're not keeping feeding records, so you don't know that the animal or no, they were keeping feeding records and, but they didn't put two and two together. Like, oh, there's something wrong here. It's only eating, you know, a couple times a year and it's when temperatures go down the most, when you'd expect it to not be eating, you know, because it's, it's cooler or whatever. But that's when it became bearable.

And so they're like, okay, I can eat and digest and things are good. You know, it's, it's amazing the animals survived, but I guess the enclosures were large enough that they could kind of get away with keeping them so terribly. But, you know, so he fixed it up and made it better and they were just fine, you know, so. Fucking Woma jerky. Yeah, exactly. That's I don't know. That's, that's an old, what Reeds thing, Frank Reedy's the, the jerky machines, you know, the screen top cages with the bright light up top, you know? So we need to be watching for those cues in our captives.

If we're going to do this responsibly, you know, give them. And just because you give them a giant cage and all the, you know, branches and stuff, you know, make it all fancy looking. That doesn't necessarily mean you've met their needs because these Womas were kept in a very naturalistic enclosure with lots of rocks and hide places and stuff like that. The problem was the temperature was really hot. And I actually had a similar situation, went into a local pet store and they had this bearded dragon baby that was acting off. You know, it looked like it was weak and it could hardly keep itself up and stuff. And, and I was like, oh, you know, is it sick? Does it, has it been showing any,

you know, these, well, no, not really. It's just, and I'm like, well, show me it's cage. And so I went over the cage. I'm like, you got a temp gun. They're like, yeah. So I measured the cage. The coolest spot in the cage again was like in the nineties. And I'm like, you're cooking the poor thing. You know, it does not belong in this cage stick that uromastyx in the cage don't put this baby bearded dragon yeah it's just heat exposure it's heat exhaustion yeah and they put it in a better cage with the hot spot of like you know the maybe a basking light but cooler areas where they could escape to and it was just fine you know it recovered just fine, you know, it recovered just fine. So, you know, we need to, we need to watch for those cues and try to base our husbandry off of their natural history, you know, taking in mind where they come from. I, I, I heard, uh, was it, was it on one of the

podcasts with the NPR guys where they were talking about, um, Rob was talking to Eric saying that, you know, how Mahara has about, you know, it rains more in Pennsylvania than it does in how Mahara, you know, the, so you gotta be aware of where they're coming from. And that was one of the big eyeopening things, right. In the green tree book is like looking at the, actually being in their environment and knowing that in the jungle, it's like 70 degrees. And you look at the temperatures up in new Guinea and knowing that in the jungle it's like 70 degrees and you look at the temperatures up in new guinea it's like pretty stable like there's not much

fluctuation in temperature throughout the year and look even even if even if you know pennsylvania and the home of harrah islands got the same amount of precipitation it does not mean that putting that's that amount of precipitation in a box and then turning the temperature up is the same thing. It's not the same thing, you know. You're doing two totally different things. One's a Petri dish and the other is an environment. So, you know, I mean, it's tricky. I mean, I'm not saying that it's not challenging and, you know, I don't fault the people who kept their Tracy that way, you know, maybe the resources weren't there to know that it's not, you know, 90 degrees in Alameda. They just thought, Oh, they're tropical jungle snakes.

So you got to start somewhere. Right. And you read, you read weather data and you're like, all right, I kind of get what the, it says the the climate is so that's where i'll start but it but it does it does kind of speak to the sometimes we we get lazy and we look at care sheets and go oh this is how they've been doing it for the past 50 years so that must be the only way i can do it and sometimes you know it's scary when you get an animal and you want to try to keep it the best you can and you see oh everybody keeps them this way that must be the way you have to keep them because and look i think the story about this too and especially with tracy a is is that

older animals were all older animals were all older animals right the the whole idea of getting young animals is fairly new so yeah that is that is part of it but i also think that the that that you know the the husbandry issues is is is another part of the story too you know and i mean i i think it's more than than than just that and and you know i i think that older animals while wild caught animals are just tougher like you have potential for you know way more stuff going on with them because they've just been in their environment so much longer so um you know yeah yeah yeah i mean i think younger animals are also a little more adaptable to different environments you know so it makes sense maybe they're maybe

you know wild juveniles aren't don't have as high cortisol levels because they they're just kind of dumb you know getting through their environment to do because a lot of juveniles get eaten you know they don't make the best decisions a lot of times and sometimes they have to learn you know through uh trials and i mean you do see a lot of scarred up um py to learn, you know, through, uh, trials. And I mean, you do see a lot of scarred up, um, pythons out in the wild, you know, so they, they don't have necessarily the easiest life. And, and, you know, you wonder if, if some levels and, uh, of, of stress or are useful or important, even in the wild, you know, I don't wonder Chuck knows. So, you know, that's, that's definitely, but you know, overall, I think, uh, there can be definitely examples of negative stress. And like you said, all these, uh, negative

environmental, uh, if you're keeping them wrong or, or keeping them outside of their areas where they need that can increase their stress and contribute to their mortality. So that would be my finishing statement, I guess. My death blow, as it were. You got anything to finish us up with? Oh, no. To end on that statement, I think is perfect. Oh, okay. All right. All right. Well, you're just rolling over, aren't you?

Yeah, clearly. The level of performance that you gave leaves me speechless. Oh, come on, come on. You, you've, you've got some fight in you still. It is late, but we've waxed a little long and long winded here. That's all right. I feel lucky to just be here. Oh boy. Now you're just laying it on.

Now you're just hitting below the bell, buddy. All right. Well, and I think, I think there's a lot of, um, a lot of, uh, improvements that we could have on this discussion with a little more preparation. So we welcome any comments or any takers. If you want to get in on the stress, uh, argument, we want to do better. We can do this one again with a little more preparation,

maybe somebody smarter than we are. So, uh, you know, I, I, uh, I follow the centers for biodiversity, uh, on, on Instagram and, uh, they are suing fish and Wildlife in Florida for dumping pollutants. Oh, yeah. I did hear about that. Did you tell me about that? Maybe you told me. Yeah, I might have. I think I might have sent it.

I think I – did I send it? No, I sent it to Ron St. Pierre. Okay. I don't know. Oh, he was telling us about that. Yeah, he was the one telling us about that. He was saying that you'll hear more about that soon and and there you go so yeah i i sent i sent i saw that and i sent it to ron and i guess i didn't send it to you i don't value you or something i don't know what's happening

i don't count yeah i don't live in well i told you now florida's problem don't bother me with that person yeah yeah well apparently florida is trying to sink us all. At least Florida Fish and Wildlife is already Florida people. Lumping you all in. Yeah. Florida, sometimes they've got a lot of issues, and that's a rough deal. But what do you do? Wow. Sounds like that's a good move in the right direction though if they're trying to

stop throwing pollutants in the water that's well i mean that's i mean it's good but they they have an invasive plant problem that yeah that that now they're you know i mean they have an invasive plant problem that they're getting sued for the, how the way they're managing it. And in response, they're going after reptiles as the next boogeyman to fund their agency. So I don't, I don't think it bodes well for Florida. I don't think it bodes well for fish and wildlife.

And it certainly doesn't sound like it's going to bode well for us. It, you know, unless, unless we, you know, make a lot of noise and even still, you know, I mean, it, it, it, you know, unless, unless we, uh, you know, make a lot of noise and even still, you know, I mean, it, it, I, I worry, I worry about agencies like fish and wildlife because they are hooked into the mainframe system. And, you know, when they, when they want money and, and they're an agency that needs to exist and no lawmaker is saying that they're they're not they're not needed and we don't need to fund them they're gonna fund them and you know do you think a lawmaker gives a crap about reptiles nope that's just a way to fund them cool that's how we'll do it and you know screw us in the process and you know yeah so i mean that's

you know it's a it's's a valid, valid concern. Well, and haven't they put like the legislature, didn't they go on break for a bit? So they won't be voting on the issues that are, you know, that we're facing right now in regards to the, the proposed legislation to again, try to ban interstate commerce of reptiles for a while. So we don't want to let the politicians fall asleep on the issue. So keep the letters coming, keep pounding them so we make sure that they don't let this pass. I did get a letter back from one of my congressmen. Um, and it was a typical like politician BS of like, Oh yes, you're you're, we appreciate your letter. And yeah, there's lots of issues with this bill, but he didn't say I will vote against it or I will fight it. He just said,

yeah, you're right. There are issues with it. It's like, dude, tell me what you're going to do then. Tell me that you're going to fight it. You know, like I want an answer. What he said was I'm not going to alienate my constituent, but I am going to fail to answer this to the point where I am not going to make anybody mad and give you the political answer. And I'm going to do whatever I'm going to do later. And I mean, this is a failure of the American system of tacking all these other things onto a bill that has nothing to do with those things.

That drives me nuts. Well, it goes to the paralysis of our policy. It needs to stand on its own. Yeah. Yeah. You know, when they have to lump all this shit together to get, know to get crap past it you know it just yeah it doesn't oh god forbid you would have to actually address issues you know one-on-one without just rolling them on their own and you know yeah i mean and it exposes them to lengthy

you know suits and and having to reverse things down the road and having all, you know, spend money and time to to try to weed out the things that were in there in the first place. It's just it's just a mess. It's just ridiculous. But, you know, we need to fight. Nevertheless, we need to go after these things. And hopefully that sends a message. You know, if enough people get riled up and send those letters and say hey knock this off you know maybe they'll listen maybe they'll get get afraid if if enough of us show up and that's

the thing i mean you just don't don't let it lie don't don't neglect to to join the fight because we need all the fighters we can get well said man well join the join the club join the reptile fight club fight against this crap all right well we uh we done fighting for the for the evening i'm over it i'm going to bed yeah i gotta work in the morning i'm dragging as well i think we're going in early tomorrow so heidi's probably already asleep by now, but all right. Well, thanks to Moralia Python radio, check them out info or you can email them at info at Moralia python.com. Check them out on Moralia python radio.com. Everything you need to know, follow them on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, all at NPR network. So thanks again to Eric and Owen for hosting this show

and for making it possible to listen to us banter and fight one another. Well, thanks for listening and join us again next week for another episode of Reptile Fight Club. Y'all stress me out. Thank you. Outro Music Bye.