Reptile Fight Club - The Ethics of Field Collecting

Episode Date: September 22, 2023

Justin and Chuck tackle the most controversial topics in herpetoculture. The co-hosts or guests take one side of the issue and try to hold their own in a no-holds-barred contest of intellect. Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the topic of the ethics of field collecting.           Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:Cold-blooded Cafehttps://www.coldbloodedcafe.com/Use the code MPR10 for 10% off your order. Texas Carpet Fest Swaghttps://texascarpetfest.printify.me/products?fbclid=IwAR3C0-K_pZGSGXbhbSJXibKi1Z0a9QEg_MrFKm1aZr7KALZaRvCM-6XlDUYCold Blooded CaffeineWe now have a referral link https://coldbloodedcaffeine.com/?ref=9wLRgXGdAnd if you use the code MPR to get 10% off your order.Follow us @MPR Network:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQWebsite: https://www.moreliapythonradio.netEmail: [e-mail] store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

🎵 Happy birthday to you! Okay, welcome to Reptile Fight Club. On a special day, unbeknownst to me, it's Chuck's birthday. Happy birthday, man. Thanks, dude. I thought it was beknownst to you, I swear. You would think I would know, but I'm a jerk like that, I guess.

No, it's okay. Okay, I just clicked on Facebook and I saw your 47-year-old shot there. Yeah. I am honored to spend this day of my birth with you, sir. It is fine. It is fine. Cheers to you, man. Cheers to you.

Thank you. Cheers. Glad you're alive. Glad you were born. Me too. Me too. Me too. It's been a good ride.

Have you had a good day so far? You went to the gym? Why didn't you say it? I'm like, hey, you want to record and say, hey, it's been a good ride. Have you had a good day so far? You went to the gym? Why didn't you say it? I'm like, hey, you want to record? Say, hey, it's my birthday. No. Well, first of all, I thought you already knew. So I'm like, all right, this guy's asking me to record on his birthday.

He really feels like we need to record. We probably do need to record. All right, we're recording. That's fine. So it's fine. That's good. That's all right. Okay.

All right. Well, thanks for doing that. Yeah. But I got got my gym in i had a great day at work um and wow you know i'm not a person to like put out oh it's my birthday or whatever but you know i've worked really hard this year and a lot of changes in my life and just it's it's been a really positive year so i was like you know what i'm just gonna be like hey it's my birthday yeah you, it's, it's been a really positive year. So I was like, you know what, I'm just going to be like, Hey, it's my birthday. Yeah. You know, it's man, so many people, you know, wish me happy birthday. And it was just really, um, you know, it was really awesome. So, um, thank you if, if you wish me a happy birthday in snake land, but, uh, yeah, man, I, I live in the dream. That's awesome. Yeah. You're looking good, man. Thank you. Yeah.

You don't look 47, that's for sure. No, I don't feel 47. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah, that's the way to be. I think that, and then I look in the mirror. I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm a fat old man. Well, you know what, dude?

That's the only place you should be able to see it is in the mirror. You know what I mean? Yeah, right. Yeah, I do get to swim in a couple you know times a week uh you're still a beast dude you just you know you're good yeah much better you just don't do dumb shit like me and try to train like mixed martial arts and are in the middle of our you know like in the latter half of our we're over that hump you know what i mean like yeah yeah you know i will say when i'm swimming like if i see some young punk trying to yeah of course i keep up and like you know pass them or something like yep yeah but then i have a headache and i'm sore the rest of the day

you know i pay the price i'm sure he didn't not the point. Exactly. As long as he didn't know that shit, you know what I mean? You know me. I'm not really competitive. No, not you. Not you. No. You know how mad I'm going to be if the next time we herp, I can't fucking pass you up? You know how mad I'm going to be?

I'm going to tackle you, and I'm going to put you in an arm bar. You're going to use that and I'm going to put you in an arm bar. You're going to use that mixed martial arts to stop me. Why is Justin choked unconscious on the trail? I don't know. I don't know. But Chuck found a snake. Let's go over there. I would never, sir.

I would never. Yeah. Right on. I'm getting a call from Australia. Yeah. Right on. I'm getting a call from Australia. Yeah. Speaking of which, I got my plane ticket. I'm going. Nice.

That's it. Locked in, huh? I was a little nervous there for a minute because it was getting close and I didn't see a ticket. But, yeah, they came through and, yeah, very excited. A little less than a month left to go, and I'm heading out. Are you doing the full prep, you know, go here, do this? Yeah, trying to work out a – trying to figure out when I'm here, when I'm there, when I need to be on my own, that kind of thing. So I got the final word on the you know, the timeline. So now I can start planning. So as a, as a man who has learned and experienced, but has never had the privilege

of doing an Australia trip like this, is that something you like? So you plan the whole thing out and then, and then like things kind of change a little bit. So you're, so you have like your plan, but then like you, you kind of expect some fluidity in that. Is that kind of how it usually goes down? Yeah. I think, I mean, it's, yeah, it's just, you know, uh, you, it's nice when you have an alternative plan in case the weather's bad or things are right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. You got so many factors that you're, you, you can kind of plan for, but now really, you know what I mean? So it gets, it gets tricky with, you know, when you have other people in the group, you

know, cause I'm going herping with old Birchie. Um, and, uh, so, you know, like, yeah, he's not difficult though. No, I think he's, you know, he's pretty, pretty tough. I'm going with Steve Crawford as well. So that should be nice. So tough. So some, some, yeah, so it'll be nice and so tough so some some yeah so it'll be a little bit of a road trip but i i don't know you know like if if they're gonna sleep in a

tent or if they're gonna i see i see or something like that so i i don't know what to plan for there i need to chat with them a little bit more so you haven't had the julander rough rider talk yet i see i see that's fine well listen that's i That's fine. A little bit. I don't give a crap, dude. I'll sleep wherever and do whatever. If it's a good time, sign me up. But I do recognize that some people

are like, that's not me. I don't do that. I will admit it is nice to have a shower in the morning. Oh, definitely. That's for sure. I had an amazing time in Arizona, do that. So I will admit it is nice to have a shower in the morning. Oh, definitely. No, that's, that's for sure. I mean, I mean, I had an amazing time in Arizona, but, uh, when I got home, I showered long and hard cause I was good and funky, you know? Yeah. So, and that was kind of, I mean, I don't know. I kind of like to break it up a little bit, maybe with a stay here and there, you know? Um, Yeah. Again, that, that reduces your flexibility.

So you're kind of stuck with an area. So yeah. Yeah. If you're, if you're camping, you can go, Hey, we're going here, we're going there. And, and, and, you know, I'll be honest, man, as a, as a guy with a family and stuff who never does shit without a plan anymore, it is kind of nice to be like, yeah, I don't know. We're, we're just herp till we get tired and then we'll camp and then, you know, we'll wake up and we'll start herping again. Like that's kind of a, you know, it takes, takes me back to the days where I'd be like, I don't know, what are we doing? Okay. Yeah. Let's go to Vegas, you know? Yeah. So we, we had to have that debate. I know Rob, uh, he, he does the Airbnb route and that's, you know, it works out well. And speaking of which, we just had a nice trip down to Arizona. So yeah, we, uh, we bested our record of, uh,

well, we can talk about that a little bit. Yeah. I feel, I feel like you have that, that, that, I feel like you need to talk about that. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. It's, it was, it was a great trip and, and Rob, you out. Better than our trip? I don't know. Different? It's hard to say. Different for sure. But I did get a lifer, so that's nice.

Nice. We didn't see that. We were on the same road looking for the same snake, but we didn't see it when we were up there. It was pretty dead that night. You went up in the mountains for montane stuff? Yeah, we did. We went up and looked for price i because rob hadn't i thought i saw price i in your yeah we got three of them yeah so fantastic so you know we got there we we uh

went um out to kind of the you know that bob's area basically yeah kind of that that down that area and we stayed kind of similar spot near portal arizona so we had an airbnb out there um stayed there a couple nights, but, um, you know, went out herping the first night, saw a couple, uh, rattlesnakes, got a couple of Mojaves and, and, uh, I think a diamond back, I think in total, we saw like 16 rattlesnakes total. Yeah. Now, now did I see a melosis on there? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was a pretty one too. Right. Really nice. Right. We didn't see a melosis on our trip. Did there? Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was a Melosis time. Yeah, a pretty one too, right? Really nice, right? We didn't see a Melosis on our trip, did we?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, we did. Yeah, we did. Me and you. We got that over in the Huachucas. It was me and you. It was road cruising. Yeah, that was when we were road cruising that – where the guy got stuck.

In Huachucas, yeah. Yeah. Where the idiot – Yes, I guess I don't get to say where we were road cruising. I mean, we were there. We were in that area. Yeah. Yeah. We're the idiot. Yes. I guess I don't get to say where we were. I mean, we were in that area. Yeah. Yeah. So we, we got, you know, got, got a couple repeats that night and, you know, nothing too surprising.

We saw, you know, a couple of toads and stuff like that. Then the next morning we got up early and went up, up looking for price. I up in the mountains and stopped at a little spot on the way up there. Didn't didn't see much there aside from a few spiny lizards and then went up on the mountain. It was like a did you go up the same kind of spot we went? Yeah. Yeah. OK. Looked around. So you guys stopped like like halfway up or like in that that in you know on the way up from that ascension to where we were well kind of we went the opposite way though we went oh interesting yeah okay we checked out some new spots and nice kind of looked at them you know on on google earth or whatever

and said that looks like it might be similar to where we found the one so we uh dustin and i were kind of so you were doing kind of like comparative habitat stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Looking at similar habitat, maybe a little rocky. Yeah. But not talus.

The talus is closed. So we were going over this spot that we kind of saw across the valley and said, oh, that looks good. Let's head over there. So we were walking kind of over to that side where we found the price side, but further the other way, the opposite way we were heading. And there was a giant Molossus, just this huge yellow montane. He was up at 80, 200 feet. He was way up there. I'd forgotten that they were up there. And they're really nice, 200 feet. Like he was way up there. I, I'd forgotten that they were up there,

you know, and they're really nice. Big yellow. Yeah. Didn't hardly get a lot of us. They get pretty, they get real pretty up there. Right.

Yeah. They seem to, he was real chill. Didn't mind riding a hook. And it was like one of those impressive, you know, big, big.

So I think that was fun. I mean, obviously price. I, when we went like, that's like the rarest you know yeah but man i that melosis really was like a just an amazing um you know that diamond back we found was pretty incredible too but yeah melosis was pretty man i like those. So when we found it, it was me and Brandon. He's Dustin's buddy.

Got it. Dustin and Rob were way over the hill on the other side of the valley somewhere. We'd kind of split up a little bit, but we found this thing. So we called them over on the walkie talkies. And so they had to make their way over from a little ways off and so then um when we finished photographing that that beast and tom tom was there tom weaver i don't know nice tom but i don't think he's one of the rob no i don't think i've met back he works down at the desert uh the tucson desert museum um yeah okay i think that's what it's called i might be getting

the name wrong but anyway it's, he used to work at the Denver zoo. So that, and he and Rob have kind of teamed up on projects for in the good old days or whatever. So they go way back and Tom's Tom went on one of the, Oh wait, I think I met Tom. He went, he was, he did half of a trip. Oh yeah. In California. Yeah. Right. That'sifornia yeah right that's right yeah yeah

okay yeah yeah okay um so uh we you know once we finished photographing the black tail um dustin and i had seen a place across the valley so we're like let's let's check that out it was a little hard getting there you know kind of over of over a rise and a little bit steep and kind of sketchy. Oh, yeah. And so we are walking down kind of parallel. And all of a sudden we heard, you know, Dustin heard rattling. Uh-oh. Pete Call is in the building.

Pete Call. Yep. So we're walking kind of parallel down this hillside and, and, and Dustin heard rattling. And so he's like, I hear something. And so, you know, we, and there was one boy how to do it. I taught that boy how to do it. This was a big one. That's the only person I, this is the only thing I could ever say about that with him.

Cause he, he would teach me how to do everything else. So that's the only thing I taught him how to do is. Yeah. So he, he heard it it but i got eyes on it first so you know kind of like one of those shared oh my gosh i could see you too i chalked that i chalked that up to dustin and then uh so it was a nice one so we sat and photographed that and then we we radioed the guys and so they're heading towards us and all of a sudden brandon's like hey there's one right here it's like in a rock crack just like on his way over he saw a little juvenile too it was like kind of a miracle he saw it especially since he was beelining towards us you know so he found it um i think it no it was just sitting there he just happened to look right where it was

yeah right just just very uh so so then uh Rob, Rob was clear over somewhere else and he was having a hard time. You know, he had to go quite a distance to get to us. And so it was it was kind of funny, you know, the kind of fortuitous that we both had found one. So Rob made his way over across the valley and was photographing the smaller one. And so Dustin and I got to spend plenty of time with the other one, just kind of sitting there watching. It didn't really try to move. It just kind of hung out there where it was. I believe it thought it was probably pretty unseen. It was cryptic still because we didn't really harass it too much.

So it was like just taking pictures, trying not to get too close to spook it. So we could leave it kind of natural, you know? And so we, uh, we waited for those guys and kind of swapped so we could both see, um, the, the two, uh, price I. And so, um, we, you know, it took them a while cause you know, Rob, Rob takes, uh, he takes his time with pictures and that will come up later, but you know, he, he takes really good shots. And so he, he takes his time with the animals. And so we sat and, you know, I, so after, after that, I, I walked back or Dustin went back over the hill and I I stayed with the price eye just to kind of keep an eye on it until the other guys could get over there. Then they made their way over, so we swapped and took pictures of the other one.

So then after I got done taking pictures, Dustin's up on the hillside, and we've kind of, I don't know, we've discovered that we make a good herping duo. We call it the Power of Uston. Yeah. discovered that we make a good herping duo we call it the power of ustin and uh yeah we find no i seen the power of ustin when the the first time so i believe in the power so so he thought he heard you know another rattle so i start heading up the hillside toward him and and and uh he he said it either wasn't a price i or a dip down a hole or something like that so he didn't and so i'm like see you can't leave me behind we got to use the power yeah yeah and so we walk a little bit further and there was another big montane molo you know so we got another blacktail rattlesnake another huge one like it was kind of funny because you put like your hat over it to try to get it to

coil up calm down and it lifts the hat and like the hat and crawls away with the hat over it to try to get it to coil up and it lifts the hat and like, and crawls away with the hat on. It was pretty hilarious. So that was pretty cool to see just that big, powerful snake, you know? So then we put both our hats on top of it and kind of held it down with the hook. And we're like, there it is. The symbol of the power of the Estons, you know, two hats with the, and a molo tail sticking out of the bottom like that's the like the bat signal for the estons but either that or the or the or the was that

ace of base it takes two to make things go right somebody oh yeah yeah was it ace of base i thought i feel like it was ace of base maybe yeah we'll have to look that up. It's like, I've got the power. That's not Ace of Base, is it? I think that's the same song. I don't know. Anyway, while we were sitting there waiting for the guys to come see the molo, I don't know if they ended up making it up because we were up on the hillside and they were clear down.

Rob had taken off in the opposite direction again, so he's like, where are where are you? We're like, uh, clear up here. He's like, I guess I've seen one today. So maybe he came up. I can't remember who all made it up there. But, um, while we were sitting waiting for the guys, uh, there were raspberries, wild raspberry bushes. So me and Dustin are sitting there snacking on raspberries, watching this big molo so it was pretty great uh freaking heck that's living the dream right right so so by that time it was two molos two pricei a real cherry cow a treat get the hell out of here man that's and so we uh

this is too good so we thought well let well, let's go check our original spot. Let's go check our original spot where we saw the price eye, where you found your price eye, right? And so we headed over that direction as we were making our way through this one area towards where you found yours. I got buzzed and i spotted it so i got my uh official like i found i found it kind of deal price i so nice yeah it was pretty cool so um you know it's cool to see one for sure, but, you know, there's like kind of a two-list system where, you know. Yeah, for sure. You find one and it means a little bit more, I guess, to you. Findings are always graded.

Yeah. For sure. So, yeah, I mean, how can you beat three price high and two big malls on the side of the mountain? I mean. It's pretty cool. I think you're starting to nail it down. That's what it sounds like. Well, it was interesting, too, because, I mean, I don't know if it was the weather.

The day was perfect. Like, it was overcast the whole day. You know, sun would break through once in a while, but it was, you know, relatively cool. You know, when we were up up there it was pretty scorching you know it was warm warm up there so this day was just like a snake day you know a snakey day so felt perfect for it and it worked out it was pretty perfect up there and because we uh i guess one of dustin the guy dustin knew or something that was up there somebody knew him up there herping they'd been there for three days and they hadn't seen one.

And so, you know, then we go up and one day get three of them. So they just needed the magic man to go. I don't, I, you know, you never know.

It was a day or was it the, you know, the experience or was it, you know, you taught us how to find them. So we learned from the master. You're welcome. You're welcome.

What can I say, man? I appreciate it. I really appreciate it. I welcome. What can I say, man? You're welcome. I really appreciate it. I love you guys. I'm glad to give back. Glad to give back. You're always giving.

It's just your nature. Except for the coin tosses. I don't know if I'm giving back for the coin tosses. Oh, I'm giving to you. I mean, I don't know if I'm, yeah. If loss is a community pool, I'm definitely giving to that. Right. This kind of goes back to our discussion of skill versus luck or timing, whatever.

Yeah, definitely. But we'll take it either way. So Rob was very happy to have a few price tags. Well, gosh dang, what I want to know is, does Rob feel like you finding those were skill or luck? Right. Like the guy who missed out, how does he feel about it? That's what I want to know.

Right. Well, and I think it's, you know, because he's spending so much time photographing, we're off finding the next one. Yeah. Moving on to the next animal. Well, truly a team effort, right? Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.

You know, I don't mean to make it sound like, ha, ha, ha, Rob missed out. You know, like, no, it's not like that at all. I'm just saying, like, man, it's, you know. Right. But it is nice to kind of find that target. That was the big target for Rob. Yeah, for sure. Was finding a price high.

And that sucks you guys were far apart when you found it and all that, too. But, I mean, you know, i guess seeing one in the wild is probably better than not seeing one or you know seeing one having to walk a ways over kind of treacherous landscape is better than not seeing one so yeah having something to hike towards is is probably exciting anyway um and then you know we headed back down went got a celebratory uh dinner at the i think we went over to's, but he had left for the day. So we went and got some dinner at the one – that one spot. The place we stopped at.

The rodeo. Had lunch. Yeah. Nice. The bigger diner area. So good food there. It's a good place. And I think the waitresses are getting to know us.

They're like, hey. Hey. I recognize you guys. You guys like reptiles, right? Yeah. The one waitress is showing us the snake that she found that morning on the way into work or something. That's awesome. That's cool.

So we headed out that night to go road cruise and we saw, yeah, several different rattlesnakes we got the mojave's diamondbacks and then we got the hybrid the um uh prairie uh mojave hybrid nice it's like that spot kind of yeah yeah up from bob's place that is notorious for those we saw we saw a dor right was that with was i think that was our the trip we were you were on no i don't i don't remember oh it was on the side of the road and i'm like this looks like a hybrid it was in the exact same area as this baby and they're like yeah and then we showed a picture to bob he's like oh yeah pretty much all of them in that area are hybrids so kind of cool i feel like i was there for that but i don't remember that i feel like that was the time we were there, but I don't remember that. Okay, whatever.

So we didn't spot a prairie, but we saw a few other things. And I think there was something else in there. But I think a baby patch and all that had been hit. And anyway, yeah, it was pretty decent. We were surprised it was, I don't know, I guess you never know if it's going to be hopping or not. But it was a decent night of road cruising for sure. I mean, you're definitely not going in monsoon season, right? Well, I mean, it is technically somewhat monsoon season so are they

getting are they getting monsoonal moisture somewhat yeah we did see a night snake that night too so night snake a mojave a diamondback and the the hybrid um so then the next morning we went out to that spot where we looked for the hognose kind of in new mexico and there was a big uh texas horn lizard on the side of the road like cool it was just big old thing and i i saw it and i'm like and and we you know i'm like oh i think that was a lizard and and then i look back and dustin didn't stop and so i'm thinking well maybe it's not but but let's check. You know, it looked too good to be, to not be one.

And so we went back and it was a nice, safe. Yeah. Good. Safe. Yeah. And then we kind of herped around that area, kind of that, that boulder spot, you know, looking for the hog nose and saw a giant uh whiptail that was pretty cool nice cool but no hognose yeah yeah and then went over to uh that spot where we saw the big old pink

diamondback oh yeah the rocks and stuff and looked poked around there um we were kind of dust and i kind of went and scoped out to, apparently there's clobber eye records out there. So, um, banded rock rattlesnakes out there that you could find. And so we were looking for maybe where we would look for those in the future or something. And then, um, Rob found, uh, another molasses, another blacktail rattlesnake. So he was down in this cool crack. He's like just right where it should be. You know, that's where, where, where self-respecting rattlesnake so he was down in this cool crack he's like just right where it should be you

know that's where we're self-respecting rattlesnake would be right and that's the perfect spot for any self-respect yeah so then you know we we took some pictures that got a little hot so we headed over to dustin's place to kind of um grab some food and you know we grabbed some food on the way hung out at Dustin's took some pictures of his collection he's got some fun stuff over there

and then we went out that night looking for tigers so we went up the same spot we found that green rat snake

on that road yep and so we were heading up there and right on the way up there was a big another molossus getting ready

to cross the road. And so, you know, black tail. That's such a cool spot, dude. Four, yeah. That's a cool spot. Pretty cool, yeah. So we took a few pictures of that and then headed up right on sunset. And sure enough, Brandon spotted the tiger coming up onto the road, you know.

We're like, yeah. And it was a nice looking tiger too, really kind of light colored with some, you know, the dark banding, a little bit of yellow on the tail, but really crazy how tiny their heads are. They have these tiny little heads and apparently they pack a punch. So, you know, you want to be careful with the tiger rattlesnakes, but, um, so that was pretty thrilling. So we sat and took pictures of that. And this is what I was alluding to.

Rob's like, just leave me on the side of the road. I'm going to just spend some time with this thing and take some pictures. And so we left him with the snake, you know, and you could see his light, you know, illuminating the hill or whatever it was. And so we're like, we know, and you could see his light, you know, illuminating the hill or whatever it was. And so we're like, um, we're, we continue up and down. So we passed him once and went down to the bottom of the hill again. Um, and then we came back and stopped and he was done taking a picture. And apparently, um, this other car, you know, when we were taking pictures of the tiger, this other car pulled up and they were herpers too.

There were like two other cars of uh herping that night and one of them had like a liar snake that they'd found on the road that they'd collected under permit or whatever and so we you know took a look at that took a couple pictures on the rock or whatever and then they took off um the guy was like kind of weirded out that we wanted to take we were putting it on the right don't don't let it get loose don't let it loose like i'm gonna let it get loose dude where um the guy was like kind of weirded out that we wanted to take we were putting it on the right don't don't let it get loose don't let it loose like i'm not gonna let it get loose dude where's it gonna go so he was all freaking out but um so we so we kind of snatched it you guys done okay he grabbed it you tell him quit being a bitch yeah and so so well so they they stopped right

before we got there. They were stopped by Rob and they were out of the car kind of talking. And they're like, is that your camera equipment in the road? What's that in the road? And they go over. There's a liar snake, a baby, like a young one that had been hit. And it was right like coming up towards like it was crawling towards rob so we figured that it was you know one of those cars that was coming you know probably watching rob to make sure they were far enough away from him

they didn't hit that's kind of a narrow road and hit this liar that was coming right for rob like it would have probably crawled right up and nuzzled up against him or something probably would have scared the crap out of him while he's photographing a tiger rattlesnake you know just kind of one of those weird yeah what a weird one-off right yeah so it was it was unfortunate that got hit because that would have been cool to see a liar that would have been cool to see without being shown one by a paranoid dude but so we we went down from that road and we were heading over to another road and saw a big Western diamond back at kind of the base of the hill and got him off the road. And then we kept going. And there was this just gorgeous king snake sitting, sitting in the road and grabbed, you know, got it off the road.

Man, this thing was just brilliant yellow just beautiful uh snake so that was pretty cool nice um so we i i mean just it almost seemed like one of those like uh mixes but the whole like the whole sides of it were just bright yellow you know it was a really nice one kind of looks like you know like uh like uh like it like it would have been a like a captive bred snake that had been had a couple years under them you know and selectivity looking amazing wow that's such a that's such a cool find when you find stuff like that right that's like nature damn i know yeah he did they did that one right.

Yeah. And then we got a Dior Longnose, another Diamondback, a young one. Or maybe it was a Mojave. I can't remember which one that was. And then Colorado River Toad. And then back to Dustin's. In the morning, we went out to down by the border. What's that? Oh. Where we saw the garter snake and the pastiles when we went that's that that's that that's that snake where we that's that area that was like uh you kind of take the back it's like a back way through but

we hit like yeah yeah yeah yeah and you can kind of almost see down into Mexico, right? Yeah. Yeah. That place. Yeah, there's canyons you can hike and get to Mexico. So we hiked around the lake up there. Yeah, we're almost done. Hang in there. Oh, my gosh. Hiked around the lake.

Didn't see too much. Both Rob and Dustin spotted Sonoran whip snakes, so that was cool. Nice. I didn't get to see it. Dustin said it was eating like a lizard when he saw it. So that was kind of cool. But unfortunately they're, they're really nice. I really like this sort of snakes. They're beautiful. But, um, and then, you know, went looking for vine snakes, which is always like just staring at trees.

Wow. Wow. You were like, you know what? Yeah. We're going to, we're going to really test our – I just want to punish myself. The power of us. The power of us does not extend to –

That's when you thought you guys were feeling yourselves. You were like, we're going to find this. Like, let's get – And then three hours later, you're like, we're not going to find this. We're not going to find this. Yeah, those things are freaking hard, man. Yeah. But it was a great trip. it was a lot of fun and

um had a had a good time with the guys and um saw some great stuff so yeah that's the trip in a nutshell cool good one yeah good one i i i'm not gonna say that i'm jealous and I'm sad that I missed it or anything, but it sounds like a really great trip. Yeah, no, it was fun. It's, it's hard. Like I wasn't going to go. I told Rob, I can't, I can't make it, you know? And he's like, well, I've already paid for the Airbnb. So if you just get yourself down here, I'll cover the Airbnb airbnb i'm like okay it's hard to pass up you know an offer like that that's pretty legit and and i you know i

looked at the tickets you kiss rob's ass for that because that's pretty fucking legit man oh yeah no that is all right he's he's a good one to her that is is on one knee, you know, both hands on the cheeks kissing booty right there. That's pretty cool, man. Yeah, that is cool. That was pretty cool. You didn't kiss his booty like that, I can tell. Well, yeah, I tend not to do that kind of thing. All right.

That's fair. I'm just saying that was very booty kiss worthy. It was. If I was a nicer guy i might have done i'm too big of a jerk i don't even tell my buddy happy birthday when it's his birthday well i mean apparently who knew all right how there's no way to know in this i mean other than fucking social media and all this stuff that that the one guy whose birthday it is is like get off my lawn you bastards and and you're the social media guru who didn't get the message when i put

it on social media i got stuck in the lab today so i was like stressing trying i was like worried i was gonna get home on time right we had to push it back. So yeah, it's fair. I'm sorry. It's okay. It's all right. No. Hey, Hey, Hey, no, no, man. I just really want you to know. I'm sorry. It's okay. All right. Well, um, you know, being out and out there and seeing, you know, some of these snakes makes me think, ah, you know, it'd be cool to have some of these in in my living room to to remember these cool experiences and see them and that's kind of why you know we do these things then i'm like well you know i don't need to collect them i can just have those memories have the pictures that kind of thing and so i got to thinking about you know the ethics of of catching and bringing home snakes. And we did have a listener suggestion, um, to do that as a,

as a topic. Um, and that was, uh, brought to us, uh, by Elias exotic. Um, he posted in the old school herpers group, um, and, you know, I was wondering about those attitudes towards field collecting and, you know, it was kind of funny when we were out in, in Pennsylvania and, you know, was wondering about those attitudes towards field collecting. And, you know, it was kind of funny when we were out in Pennsylvania and we were herping the pine barrens and, you know, we didn't see much the first day. It was pretty slow. Me and Rob and Eric were out there getting ticks and chiggers all over us and not seeing many reptiles for it. You know, we saw a fence lizard

and and that was about it and so we're like you know it's clobber he already not wait is it it's not clobber what's his name gosh dang it what's his name tell me his name um snakes the keeper and the kept caulfield sorry yes clobber caulfield iept. Caulfield. Sorry. Yes. Not Clobber. Caulfield. I'm like, Caulfield just collected everything. You know, and in his books, he's like talking about all these snakes that he's, he's like collecting five and six, you know, timber rattlesnakes or whatever out of these places. And I'm like, ah, yeah, you know, Caulfield just collected everything. That's why we're not finding anything. And, you know, he used to frequent the Pine Barrens.

And so that's kind of, I think Rob is retracing some of his steps and kind of, you know, seeing the areas he's talking about in the book, which is really kind of a cool experience to be in these places where he writes about and you can see it firsthand. And in a lot of cases it hasn't changed much. So that's kind of cool. And other ways it's changed a lot. So, you know, but, but we're like sitting there going, yeah, uh, Caulfield wrote about this spot. Caulfield wrote about that species that we're looking at, you know? So I thought, you know, back in the day you could collect all day. There was basically, it was kind of free for all no rules, you know? And he was probably out on a, I didn't even know if you had to have permits back then people would just kind of killed him.

So nobody really cared about him or something. Right. So thinking about field collecting and nowadays it seems like people really frown on it and there's some – a lot of unethical collection methods and things behind it. So I don't know. I just wanted to kind of go back and forth on the ethics, pros and cons or whatever you want to say of field collecting. So let's flip a coin. Let's do it.

All right, birthday boy. What you got? That's tails. It is tails. Because it's always tails. I don't know why I was on a head's kick for a while, but it's always tails. Well, you needed to get, you got that one on your birthday. So that's –

So, okay. So we're talking about – Should you collect them? Should you not collect them? Should you collect? Should you not? Well, clearly I'm on the I think it's okay to collect side. All right.

Yeah. Okay. And can I – Let's do it. Can I, uh, of course you can take the horns, the bull by the horns. You're the big winner. I'm the wiener. I'm a wiener. All right. So I'm no, do not collect man. Um, obviously, you know, the easy thing to, to kind of use as an example of, of collection gone wrong is over collecting of different localities and and species and i mean you think about the the ones you you keep the electric blue day geckos you know in their natural range they're they're pretty much

wiped out or very difficult to find because they were so popular and because everybody wanted them and stuff so you know it's nice to see them being bred in captivity. Hopefully the damage, you know, irrevocable? Irrespective? Irreparable damage hasn't been done. Irreparable? Irreparable damage hasn't been done. Thank you.

Yeah, I'll get there. Just give me a few minutes. Yeah. Okay. So, you know, hopefully that damage hasn't been done and they can bounce back and have a healthy population in that area. Yeah. Right. So, obviously, cofial chondros are maybe another one where they just, you know, find them anymore because they overcollected that spot. And so those kind of things are obviously yeah the the cautionary tale of over collecting i i read something where there was a cloud of passenger pigeons that took

like several hours to go overhead you know of the person watching this just just this massive flock of huge pigeons and now they are extinct because they thought, oh, there's so many. They will never run out. And they indiscriminately hunted them or whatever into extinction. So, you know, we definitely need a balance. And that is hard because it takes scientific study. You know, you don't know how much a population can support, especially at first when you just discover it, you know, and people go out and just are excited and start collecting

and they want to get it. And, and I get, you know, the idea of having stuff in bread in captivity, but you know, there, there is a, definitely a balance in a fine line that if you cross here, it's either locally extinct or for real extinct or whatever so that would be how i would start it out okay i mean i you know i understand where you're coming from and i think there's plenty of examples of um you know over collection leading to population decline, especially in stuff like island species. Kofi Aou was a good example. But I cannot help but take the Kondro example of Daniel LaTouche

and, you know, the notion that a healthy habitat supports a bountiful population and, and that one that doesn't necessarily suffer when human collection happens. So, you know, I think, I think your point is, is, is taken, but it needs to be taken in context. And clearly, I mean, you know, obviously Kofi Ayoub is a great example of something that's been overcollected. And, you know, there's maybe like one guy I know, and I'm not a condo guy, but there's one guy I know who's working with that population and still doing it. And I know there's other people, but I don't know them, you know what I mean? But, but that's, I mean, that's a really good example. But, but I think by and large, you know, what, what we really see is that, that human take

for the pet trade is not something that is is generally catastrophic to uh any any populations unless there is a caveat like an island species which is you know highly you know specialized or unique in that area and not found anywhere else and you know but but but i i think that you know, specialized or unique in that area and not found anywhere else. And, you know, but, but, but I, I think that, you know, by and large, what we see is, is species that can support, uh, human take and, and when additional pressures of, of stuff like human development or, or climate change or things like that happen, that's when we really see the issue because it's not just human take-its. It's actually another stressor, which is driving a bad feedback loop for them. And that reproductive cycle is the only thing that

keeps them going and when you know you can shorten that window enough and they can't keep up you know and then you see population decline um so but but i don't know if i i don't know if i buy that as a solely you know uh anthropomorphic thing yeah and a lot times, you know, I think you're right on the money. There's, you know, the pet trade is blamed for a lot of things and it's probably because it's the low hanging fruit. It's the thing that can combat the easiest, try to combat, you know, development and progress, you know, building over wild lands or cutting natural forests down for cane or what's the other sweetener stuff?

Palm. Palm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Palm oil. Try to stop that, you know. Right. You're not going to. You're absolutely never going to.

So they'll slash and burn a whole country before they're going to admit that that's the problem and not the herpers out there collecting everything. And, you know, like there's like that example of the guys in Madagascar that got too close to the tortoise facility and got shot as a result. You know, who knows if they were out there legitimately or if they were up to no good. Right. You know, it's not something you necessarily deserve to get shot for. But, you know, it can be dangerous if you're herping in the wrong place. And, you know, people take there's that guy in Florida that has the land where you can find the veiled chameleons and people come on his land and he'll shoot at him and like chase him off his land and stuff. You know, that's kind of sketchy to get, to go risk life and limb to find these things. So, yeah, but definitely, you know, you

have a point that most, a lot of species can support some amount of take. And I think, you know, like with the ball pythons or the savannah monitors those kind of things it seems like they've been collected you know for a very long time at high numbers and they're still still kicking still out there still doing it and you know i don't know maybe some local populations are suffering you know it's hard to say but but it is kind of funny too like what you know and and this is not just a reptile thing but it's like you know how how long is it it's like, you know, and this is not just a reptile thing, but it's like, you know, how long is it? It's like, oh, you know, after 25 years, we found an example of this species that scientists were convinced was extinct. Like, so, you know, and I get it.

Yes, that animal was probably on the brink of extinction. But we stopped doing what, I don't know, something, whatever happened, either we stopped that pressure or maybe, you know, it wasn't as extinct as we thought, but, but give it enough time and we see a lot of these species come back, you know? And so I, I think, you know, I think we in some ways give ourselves too much credit for our ability to, you know, get rid of species off of this planet. at the same time, we feel really, really guilty when it happens. And, you know, we'll,

we will, we will do what it takes to say like, ah, you know, that's, that's not okay. We need to, we need a white rhino, the shit out of this.

Well, and I mean, this planet is notorious for extinctions. I mean, yeah, of course. The more you delve into paleontology, the more you realize how many species have existed here that don't exist here anymore.

And listen, I mean, let's be real about the universe and our planet and our place in it. Extinction or non-life or conditions that are primordic for life are the norm or are the exception, not the norm, right? We'll go through periods of terrible extinctions and catastrophic events and things like that. I mean life is rough sometimes. But life persists. Even in those times, life persists. They don't – it persists in the way that us higher order mammals are like, oh, that makes sense to us. But we aren't meant to exist in those periods of time. That's just how we are. We have our time now. Now we better figure it out and get into space and do all those things while we have that time. And if we squander it, we're screwed. Right. Like that's, that's kind of the, and I mean, I digress, but still kind of the same idea. Right.

Yeah. Well, I mean, we've got a tracker here where we've shown that we can do it. It's just frustrating when stupid like politics gets in the way of actually doing it. You know, you remember the hole in the ozone layer and the cfcs and everybody was worried about that well we reversed it you know they took cfcs off the market and they you know the ozone hole was fixed and now we don't worry about it as much and you know what all that is to me is proof and verification that when we identify and applicate ourselves to a problem, we can fix it. This idea that we, well, climate change and we don't know

what to do and we don't know about, fuck that. That is resource extraction and capitalism and all these things talking. And I understand and I support, I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with those things, but they have to be done responsibly because we have to find homeostasis at some point, right? And that's what any of these animals are banking on and whether they do it. I mean, it's interesting to me that we do it socially and other animals do it

through. Can you hear this dog behind me right now? Oh, my God. So it's interesting to me that other animals do it on a fundamental choice basis. And we have gotten so big for our britches that we do it on a socially based, like ignorant, like base, you know, like our choice. Our choices are our own. It's so it's so dumb that we are so smart, but we are still like super stupid in a lot of ways. And that will be our undoing our and it's super interesting that when a species

becomes higher order the things that drive their extinction are completely different completely different and and so you know i guess i guess this is a good part for me to heave this forward on to the next point i i really feel you know strong about in this is who gives a shit if it's legal or not legal to take when we're destroying the environment that it comes from right if it can't exist in nature anymore why are we so wrapped around the gills about bringing it into captivity right like that's the most frustrating thing for me, herping down in southwestern Utah, is that they'll pave over the habitat all day long.

There once was this long road of perfect habitat going into Snow Canyon State Park. Now it's all houses up to the gate of Snow Canyon. And that's just because they couldn't build into the park right like because they would have built into that shit if they could and so all that prime gila monster habitat but if you want to keep a gila monster in captivity oh no no no don't you even think about it that's a hefty fine and potentially jail time yeah exactly but they'll pave over habitat and they'll give them permission to do

that all day long and you know that's the hypocrisy of humanity right is is it's all for us you want to protect it but we don't give a shit about anything that we bulldoze over for us you know and really i mean if they allowed a you know a modest take then you could have, uh, those things established. And, you know, I'll, I'll use this, and this is to your argument, I guess. I, um, when we were down in, in Southwest Utah herping and, and I, you know, on a, on a previous trip, I was headed back through that area and I, I found a California King snake on the road. Right. And, and I'd seen like five, you know, previous to that had all been hit by cars. And I'm like, this guy's going to get hit by cars. I've always wanted to keep this kind

in captivity. There's a permit system in my state. So I got a permit, collected it, brought it home. Right. So then I was looking for a pair to pair it up with a female. And so I told, uh, Chris and Aspen and Lindsay, I'm like, Hey, you know, I'd like to get a female. And they road cruised a female. And Lindsay's like, hey, remember, Justin wants this. And so they collected it for me and brought it to me, put it on. I put it on the permit, brought it home, and she laid eggs. And so I got, you know, 12 eggs out of this female.

And so my plan is to, you know, of course, release them back into the wild. But I also had a few friends that were like, hey, I'm really interested in, you know, the locality of king snakes. I'd love some Utah locality king snakes. So I sent a couple pairs to some, you know, friends and they told other friends. And so, you know, there's a couple pairs out there in captivity now that can propagate that line. And I'm keeping a couple or one at least to pair up with this male that I've got. And I think if we can split hairs here, I mean to me that's an ideal situation where take from the environment also results in give back but also you know uh supports to shore up that captive population uh to to take pressure off i i think i think that's a model that makes sense to me um are are those you know released animals gonna survive they've got as good a chance of anything like you know what i mean like yeah and and yeah if we're just going to keep paving over stuff like they're going to have as good a chance as anything that that

is born in the environment so why not they were caught in a neighborhood right unfortunately this neighborhood has really you know kind of naturalistic yards they they've left the natural they've done well yeah yeah which is awesome you know they're in a safer place at least the ones we talk to they're like hey what are you doing you know we're like oh we're looking at snakes they're like oh cool i i keep wanting to see snakes but i don't see very many you know that kind of thing so they're at least excited about the you know yeah and you know now and i this was kind of interesting too i had a friend that I saw at the local show this last weekend who's like, I would like a, you know, I'm interested in a pair of those. It's like it's cheaper to buy captive bred, you know, locality than it is to go down there and try to collect them.

So, you know, that's another maybe point for my side is like buying captive bred animals is usually cheaper than going and and getting them out of the wild yeah trying to establish them all the pains and headaches it is trying to establish wild animals at some time some you know some some species like these cow kings were a piece of cake like they took to captivity like nothing else i mean they're eating great they're you know the babies start right off on pink mice like it's not a challenge at all right so but i you know others are more of a challenge and you got to be kind of have a vested interest to to give them a lot of years and there are a crap ton of wild collector reptiles that die in captivity on a daily basis and for sure this this and that's the probably the part of this that bothers me the

most is the the throwaway nature of a lot of these reptiles you know the people just have the mindset that like oh yeah you buy x you know gecko from the store or whatever it'll live a couple months and it'll make your kids shut up and stop bothering you for a little while but then it eventually dies because it's wild caught and it's parasit, you know, has a parasite load or it's stressed out or whatever. I mean, you know, I agree. OK, I agree with you. But I also just want to point out that there is people who go into pet shops and buy captive bred animals that they take home. Don't eat for them.

Fucking tank out and die, too. So sure. But I mean, they're not being removed fucking tank out and die too. Sure, sure. But they're not being removed from their natural habitat. Correct. They could. That's true. Propagate the species and things. So, I mean, yeah, I mean, it's sad either way, of course.

You're right. But, you know, one's, you know, raping and pillaging the land. The other is not necessarily, you know. So, it's good. And I guess, I guess, I guess to say that is to say that, um, I, I, I have no sympathy for somebody who wants to remove an animal from the wild, knowing full well that it's probably not going to do well and it's going to just languish and die. And, you know, I guess that, moreover, moreover to say, you know, somebody who goes out and collects something that they full well know how to take care of, they know how to breed, and they can be successful with it. I don't know that I give a crap about that. Permit, no permit. permit of course follow the law

of course but at the at this point where we are with with you know what what we call conservation and what we you know what we call um you know environmental Uh, I think it's probably, I probably care less about that, that, that, that individual who goes out and is highly skilled and collects and, and, and propagates and goes out and does it. And like, who cares? Leave them alone, leave them alone. But those people who are, you know know unscrupulous um just collecting don't care like that i i all they see is dollar signs they don't care if the animal's half dead they're still gonna try to make five bucks off it or something you know that's that's what kills me

too is like totally this thing out you know it's not doing great but you're gonna sell it anyway and you're gonna oh come on oh he's just sensitive of your time he just wants you to get off the the line but yeah i think that's the the main thing that that kills me is when we equate animals for dollar signs and that's the frustrating thing like you know and granted i mean everybody's selling i'm i'm selling animals and i'm part of the system. So, you know, I don't really have a moral leg to stand on, but there are degrees, right? I mean, like we said, if you're just indiscriminately collecting sick, half dead animals or whatever, or if they get to that point.

First of all, stop. No, I think there's legs to stand on. I don't, uh, I understand what you're trying to say. I mean if you take the extreme. Yeah. The morality police. Oh, if you participate in one, you are as guilty as any. Yeah.

Exactly. OK. Fuck that. That's not true. That's not fucking true. Fuck that. OK. You are as guilty as you are guilty.

That's it. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean if you're doing your due diligence to make sure people are getting a healthy happy and i am not a scumbag because the scumbags you know what i'm saying like i i don't i'm not gonna i will never own that part i guess i should say there are some people that make that equivalent and listen you know flesh peddler if you're yeah i mean have i killed an animal before on an accident or thing of course of course but you know that's not that's not the that's not the far cry mr jillander that is a

far cry no no i yeah yeah and i know i don't mean to you know i'm just saying like i don't want you to i don't i don't i don't think that's fair i don't think that's a good uh thing to say um you know i i mean um i yeah i i just just kind of the devil's advocate of that for sure no i and i agree i understand i just you know i think the last point i'll make too is is the nature of collection like if you're going out with a crowbar ripping up you know capstones flipping rocks not putting them back just to collect an animal to go sell there's nothing worse than disturbing the environment that you know i hope you care about it yeah i hope you hit your head on every rock on the way down exactly for sure it's ridiculous and you'll see these areas and it's just heartbreaking it looks trashed you know

it's just not not the way to go if you you are going to collect an animal, you make sure you keep that environment intact so more animals can inhabit that area. You know, if you destroy some of these cap rocks, you're ruining a spot that that generations of animals may have utilized and that they will no more longer be able to utilize. So think about what you're doing. You know, don't lift a rock if you can't put it back where it belongs. That's, that's the easy rule. You know, don't, don't mess with stuff if you can't get it back. Even if you know, there's probably a hundred of the animal you're looking for, you know, wait until it's in an easier rock to flip or you can road cruise it or whatever. Just don't be an idiot. I think people take for granted how specialized some of the very micro habitats that these animals can live in and even minor disturbances can have a huge effect. So just be cognizant of what kind of an impact that can have a huge effect. Um, so just be cognizant of, you know, what kind of an

impact that can have. And even if you don't see it, maybe it's still significant. You know what I mean? So, um, you know, I think there's no snake under it today or no lizard under there. It doesn't mean there's not going to be one. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, so it's a respect, you know, I mean, obviously like, um, obviously, hopefully you respect the animals that you keep, just like you respect the environment that you go into to find them. I think that's probably the most important thing that I think we can agree in the end of this is is respecting the environment um and as long as you respect the environment and you know you're you're trying your part to be a good steward um i have no issue with take i have no issue with as long as it's done responsibly and done reasonably. If you're a raper and a pillager and you're not a breeder, I'm not your friend. Don't talk to me.

I don't give a shit. you need to, to go, you know, you know, repopulate, uh, or populate, uh, a captive born and bred, um, you know, species do it, man. I'm with you, you know? Um, and Hey man, if stuff dies, stuff dies sometimes, but you know, that's the nature of working with Libyan. Of course, of course, but of course, ask any nurse or doctor in a hospital, you know, live people, shit happens. Yeah. Hopefully you give them their best life before that happens. You're doing your best to give them their best. So absolutely. Absolutely. All right. Well, I think this has been a good discussion. I don't want to keep you any longer on your birthday. Oh, I think this has been a good discussion. I don't want to keep you any longer on your birthday.

Oh, well, thank you, my friend. Do you have anything else to say? I don't. Thank you for everybody who listens to us. Thank you for everybody who supports us. I just, you know, it's my birthday. I'm 47. I'm reflective right now, and I'm very appreciative to everybody who listens and gives the channel love, gives my friend Justin love, and gives me love.

Thank you so much for all of you guys, and thank you for being a part of the hobby. Yeah, well said, well said. And thank you to NPR for hosting us under their umbrella. Yeah, for sure. I sure like those guys. I mean, they're not just good guys. They're also friends, right? This is a legit group, man.

You know, if Morelia Python's forum ever had a second iteration, this is the most amazing second iteration. You know, it's really turned into something, you know, fucking Eric, man, what a fucking beast. Amazing. Thanks, dude. It's so great, too, to, you know, know them on a personal level where before they were just a name on a screen and uh you know and and getting to know them personally and seeing them in action and just getting to know their good nature and stuff yeah it's for sure for sure yep oh we get we got a dog i don't know if i told you we got

a french wait what yeah yeah you said it and i'm like blah blah blah Justin said wait wait wait wait i heard that wrong you got i know i've i've done it i've always dog dog or like a a french bulldog wow i've always loved those dogs i just think they're really fun and cool so um we were at the herp show and my buddy uh that i've been the shows with uh brody, Brody, he, he saw that, you know, he's like, he saw my, uh, wheeler eye, uh, no tail geckos. And he's like, I really want those. Uh, would you consider a trade? He's like, it's my anniversary and we have this dog. It's my dream dog. I've always wanted this dog, but it's rough on my wife and she's not enjoying having the dog you know it's it's being hard on her because i'm not home enough to do the training and stuff because

it's a puppy and and would you consider trading i'm like oh man i didn't want another dog but i can't pass this up good for you yeah yeah ruby tell them how proud you are pico pico now she doesn't want to call her yeah yeah she's not proud of me but yeah so and my my kids keep teasing me uh dad's dad's hanging out with the dog you know he took the dog on a walk can you believe it he's taking a dog i'm like you should just go all in dude you might as well just go all in now but he's a great dog he's a lot cool other than all congratulations yeah it's it's a congratulations that's a cool dog i i could totally see that dog being such a hit in your family so yeah but summer loves it it's summer's dog so she's keeping in her room and you know all that kind of stuff and that's fun too good times

but i know because summer wanted a Chihuahua. Right. And I'm like, I do not want a Chihuahua. They're yippy. They're loud. They can be very aggressive and shitty dogs. Right.

And I mean, I'm sure there's lovely Chihuahuas out there. Oh, no, definitely there are, but they can be a fucking handful. And so I was like, Oh man,

I don't want to try. And she was really pushing it. So when i got this opportunity i'm like hey summer what would you think about this dog she's like oh yeah yeah that's great so i'm like okay because i know she's out of the house in you know five or six years and then it's gonna be my dog so i might as well have one i want you know yeah yeah so we're well done jewel ender well done thanks thank Brody, for the opportunity. And I think he's happy to know it's gone.

Yeah. Know where it is. No, it was good. See the dog and stuff. And he's got wheeler eye and that's fucking cool. There you go. Yeah. There you go.

So it's good stuff. All right, man. Well, thanks, man. Yeah. Have a happy birthday and thanks for being my co-host. It means a lot. You're a good dude. Oh, man.

I really enjoyed doing this. It's been an amazing ride. I look forward to more. For sure. For sure. Well, hopefully we'll catch you again soon for another Reptile Fight Club. We love you guys. Take care.

Have a good night. Fight Club. Thank you.