Reptile Fight Club - The Pros and Cons of Reptile Regulations

Episode Date: July 2, 2021

In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the topic of the pros and cons of reptile regulations.Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland @-FBIG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Thank you. Welcome to another edition of Rept fight club good evening and i'm chuck colin we are the hosts of the show you didn't know that already all right well um how's it going my my friend chuck good dude good just uh you know staying busy uh like i uh said earlier i i had uh some new windows put in my house so i we did the downstairs first and we just did the upstairs so now we have all new windows so that's something uh feels just fantastic having new windows so that's been that was nice um work's been busy. Um, you know, the, uh, just waiting on, um, some Felsuma Grandis eggs. Uh, the ones that I got right after our first show are on day like 43, I think. So expecting some hatch hatching action next week sometime hopefully um so that'll be yeah so that'll be the first day

gecko eggs i get uh and uh right hopefully hopefully not the last you know yeah it's always fun to hatch out a new species that's for sure absolutely absolutely how about you dude are you are you worried about those tiny little uh baby geckos oh dude yeah well i mean if i can if if i can if i can get those uh williams eye back in the in in their enclosures after them getting out uh i can i can probably handle these grandest babies but uh but yeah they're they're pretty small man i mean, relatively speaking, uh, they're definitely the smallest lizards, uh, the, or geckos that I've ever worked with. So, um, you know, fun, fun, fun. Um, but, but yeah, it's definitely a kind of, uh,

got to have a little finesse when you try to try to catch them and, and, uh, handle them if you, if you so dare. Um, but, uh, yeah, you know, good times. Well, yeah, I've, uh, same kind of thing. I just had some, uh, eggs hatched, uh, this week. So it was a little bit of surprise because I got some eggs from a pair of, uh, spotted pythons. They're Cape York spotted. I've had them for a while and all the eggs I've gotten in the past have just gone bad. So I thought maybe the pair just wasn't compatible or the male was a dud or something. But finally I got some eggs hatching and four of the five are granites. Yeah, that's not good because that means they were crossbred with

normal spotted and they're not pure Cape Yorks. So I thought they looked a little different and kind of liked it looked a little neater or, you know, kind of, uh, a little different than a lot of the Cape Yorks that I, or that I'd bred or seen or whatever. And so they had kind of a more reduced pattern look and I was assured they were pure cape yorks but i'm beginning to think i was lied to yeah sounds like yeah that sucks yeah and i guess i mean they're still spotted well i don't know now the new species of spotted python maybe they're they're hybrids or integrates at least so um yeah if you if you buy into that that answer use your paper which i don't yeah i don't know i mean you know they're somewhat different the the cape yorks

versus the southern spotted are fairly different in appearance yeah well i i don't think you uh you definitely want the uh the paper to make your case for you having spotted, you know, I guess that's, that's really not how you wanted that to work out, but that sucks, man. That's a, but yeah. What do you do? I guess I'll represent them like what they are, but they're, they're cool looking. I mean, it's kind of like a shock, like what the heck are those? I did not expect to see those, you know? So we'll see how they do. But, and then I, I don't know. I went out herping

last night and I, I got a text from a buddy down and, uh, he's about, he's a couple hours south of me and he's like, Hey man, you want to go herping tonight? I'm headed out there. I'm like, sure. And so I jumped in the car and drove a couple hours, took my youngest daughter summer and we went out herping with him and got home about three 30 in the morning so i had a little bit of i slept in a little bit today which was probably important and necessary but yeah um yeah i'm a little a little tired but hopefully i'll be able to fight today keep my wits about me but yeah it was fun we we saw a couple uh gopher snakes um a beautiful uh long-nosed snake that had just been hit by a car so it was still alive we saw a couple uh gopher snakes um a beautiful uh long-nosed snake that had just been hit by a car so it was still alive that was a bummer it was really a pretty one and then uh

a crotalus uh orogenus lutosis one of the great basin rattlesnakes had been hit by a car as well so that's the downside of road cruising as you're gonna see yeah road kills yeah so yeah that's it was fun to get out my daughter was really excited and we had fun so it was fun to see her get excited about some um species you know they're fairly common around here but it's always fun to find um snakes i've always liked gopher snakes quite a bit they're one of my favorites one of my first pets was a gopher snake so they have a special place in my heart nice

it would have been nice to see that longnose snake alive though that would have been cool it's been a couple years since I've seen well yeah it's been a couple years since I've seen a longnose out there but it's been a few years since I've been out there out in the central Utah period. Yeah. So, um, but it was, it was fun.

Good times, but cool. Yeah. Um, what else? Uh, yeah, things are just, I'm still trying to catch up after that West Texas trip and hopefully everybody enjoyed the discussion of the, um, guys on, when we were out there in West Texas, that was kind of a fun one. So hopefully you guys enjoyed that. The THP NPR guys. Yeah. Yeah. That was a good, a good discussion. It was a good discussion.

It would have been better if you were there. You know, I was not going to mention this, but I, I, I, I was sad. And you know, We got to get more cloud. We're still newbies in this game. That's fine's that's fine that's fine yeah yeah i i i'm working on some uh 3d prints as well so they're they're just finishing up so hopefully that's not too noisy you can't hear that in the background but i don't hear anything okay that's good my 3d printer is running there so we'll see if that uh hopefully

doesn't come through but what are you making i I'm making some food bowl holders for my blue tongue scheme. I had a previous design that you drill a couple holes in the side of the tub and then click these little tabs through the plastic. And it has two little circles circles one for food and one for water kind of to hold it up so then they can kind of go underneath it and it's not quite as bulky as a water bowl in the middle of their yeah tub and so you know when you got 30 baby blue tongue skinks you got to get a little creative to do i've been housing them in a rack system your skinks jack up like if you were to put like um like water bowls and stuff like they do they knock them around and they just fill them up with

with the substrate yeah so it's kind of obnoxious that way so this kind of puts them up a little bit higher but also so they can get underneath them and have more more uh cage space uh to get around and stuff so now it's not that really nice then, but then they would bend down a little bit or, you know, they're kind of awkward. So I'm putting a, uh, an, an edge on the that goes against the back wall. So it's kind of like keeps it from pulling down. I was going to say floozy, but I think the word was flimsy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're not floozies. Yeah. That's, that's not,

that's not the right word. Hopefully this will keep it from either breaking those tabs off or pulling down too far, give it a little more stability. So it's just finishing up on those tabs. Has that 3D printer been pretty clutch for you as far as just doing just doing doing little you know like i mean i know you've got um yeah a lot of different stuff so i don't know why everybody in the reptile hobby doesn't have one i mean it was i think it was i paid 250 bucks and a spool of plastics like maybe 30 bucks and it lasts quite a bit so and i've just i've just printed out fun designs you know printed out an egg egg separator little round disc for for you know gecko eggs to sit over suspended

over water or you know substrate that's saturated to give me that you know humidity or whatever i've printed out these you know water bowl holders i've printed out another one for the carpets that's like it's basically like a circle for the water bowl but then it's got some perches that come off it so i don't know just for like whatever for like babies and stuff or yeah yeah so they so they can climb up and um for all my anturesia i've done like a little shelf with the water bowl holder so they can climb they have you know additional space in their cage so yeah it's it's a it's great like it makes a lot of sense for babies and like small small species and stuff like that that i i totally see the the uh so it's the awesomeness in that yeah it's been uh indispensable and it was only a couple

hundred bucks you know so yeah yeah it's fantastic and yeah it does take a little bit of i don't know i i just use an online program called tinkercad and i can design my stuff on there and then just export it to through these other programs i just learned everything online it was pretty simple you too pretty much yeah so um as far as uh you know printing stuff and coming up with ideas and then seeing them you know come come to fruition is kind of fun it's kind of nice yeah yeah i spent spent you know most of the day out in the reptile room kind of cleaning and setting stuff up and getting things going. And I got a few of my Western Stimson's pythons that ate their first, you know, offering. So that was nice.

It's always nice to see those things without much hassle. So I, you know, I think about like, you know, this is I think I still, I'm still, these are my still like second generation captive bread from the ones that I got, you know, which were also captive bread and imported from Europe. So they're probably fourth or fifth generation captive bread. And they're starting to, you know, the first generation I had, the first babies were a little tricky, but these are a little easier. Now, would you say that your tricks got better or they're just getting a little, they're just getting less finicky? I don't know. Are you still throwing your best moves at them or what? I just threw pinkies in the cage and they ate them.

So no tricks involved. All right. That sounds pretty good. Straight off the bat, eating a pinky. So, you know, maybe I let them stay a little longer. When I get a clutch that hatches, I put them all inside a tub within a rack system just to let them shed out. I think in the wild, that's kind of what hatchlings do as well. They hatch out and they kind of stick in the place where they're hatched to some extent.

But I don't know. Nobody really knows. There's not too much data on that. But it seems like the babies will hang out near the nest site a little longer until they get their wits about them shed out, that kind of stuff. That would make sense. They've got their yolk. They've absorbed. They're not needing to go anywhere and if yeah

it'd be really interesting to follow around a you know baby uh python hatchling python see what they do and it would be it i mean that would be something that that could be done uh for sure yeah it's tricky i mean if you're radio tracking them you know to get a yeah tag small enough to well i think you could you could probably find a nest and and put a put a camera in it and and just see like what you know i mean maybe yeah i think radio tracking them would be a little tough um yeah that'd be cool i i heard where did i hear this i heard probably on a reptile podcast where they're talking about a new type of transmitter that has like a cell tracker, something like that. Like it's got an antenna that's... It like monitors their cell phone signal?

I guess, yeah. But it can track them over quite a large distance. Interesting. It's still in beta testing i don't know how well it worked and i think it was um solar powered so it didn't need a battery pack which that's the battery pack is the most bulky part of any of those kind of radio transmitter devices so do you have to have a cell tower in the area i mean i i think that's part i don't know i can't remember the details.

I'll have to go. I think it was on maybe on that snake talk podcast, but I can't remember. But it was a researcher that was using these for, you know, kind of as a beta test. So, you know, hopefully technology gets better and we can see more into the lives of these animals without being too intrusive and sure. Making them wear a giant backpack or something. Here, put this on. Yeah. It's a little harder to the snake. Yeah.

Yeah. More, more. Well, yeah. Anything else going on? Uh, no,

not really. Um, just, uh, going as usual. Yeah. Going back home, um, in a couple of weeks with my daughters to see, uh, see the family, uh, girls haven't seen grandma in a while. So, um, I see my sister and, and, uh, her husband and, uh, And you're from Indiana? Indiana. Yeah. Indianapolis, Indiana indiana so okay um get back to uh to the land of corn so shout out to the poland family yeah yeah so it'll be fun we always have

a good time my my family's pretty pretty uh pretty fun uh so i should be good um but you know as always like going on a trip um you know my wife's not horrible with the animals, but she's not really trying to work with them either. So, yeah, it's always stressful. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah. So, you know, like I just don't want to get a phone call like, oh, one of the littles i got out because you know yeah like so um you can't get mad because it's no you can't get mad exactly exactly just get a smile and say thanks honey yep yeah i do that's what i did experience when i went to australia and

heidi was watching the animals and she was telling me how she was fed the green trees a rat and the walma is a mouse and i'm thinking or centralians a mouse and i'm like okay yeah thank you thanks for getting in oh no i hope i'm not coming home to a dead uh chondro and a starving uh centralian so but yeah it's it's nice when the wives can help out that's i mean it's definitely i definitely i mean my wife is not a reptile person i mean she likes she likes the lizards better than the snakes but uh i appreciate all of her support so um you know she she got out to the wires yep for sure for sure you know if you're uh if your significant other doesn't support it it makes it tough so um so i appreciate the support right on man well should we get into it you ready

to to throw down yeah let's uh let's let's do this okay so today our topic of choice is the pros and cons of reptile regulations yeah if they are helpful or beneficial or in what ways they just kind of fall short so um we'll go ahead with the uh coin toss and sure we'll let you call it in the air here we go uh let's go tails. You got it, man. Yes. That's amazing. You won one. I did. Incredible. All right.

My father used to say that a blind hog finds an acorn once in a while. And I have no idea what that means, but I feel like in this situation, that's what he meant. Way to go, you hog. Yeah. Yeah. All right. You got that acorn. Where do right way to go you hog you yeah yeah all right you got that um you know i will take the pro legislation side here i'll throw you a bone yeah well you know i'm prepared to not be quite popular so um right on well there's you know there's something to be said and i guess with with anything you know like we we may not i guess that's the disclaimer for all of our episodes is we may not necessarily

espouse the views that we uh argue so just keep that in mind when you're listening so don't hate don't hate don't hate my words don't hate me just because i'm uh yeah yeah just because i'm on the con side doesn't mean I hate the government and want to have no regulations at all. Yeah. Okay. Well, you get the option to lead us out or to... I will defer. Go ahead.

I figured you might. Of course. You know my modus operandi. I know your strategy. Yeah. All right. Well, I'll take you down regardless here let's see you proceed okay so i i guess the the main and probably the easiest argument is that most of the regulations come from people that are ignorant to reptiles in general they just see them as something bad and scary and

dangerous. And so they want to kind of give something to their constituents that makes it look like they're doing something. So they're like, oh, let's go after the reptiles. That's not many people like reptiles. So that'll be easy, low hanging fruit. So let's go ahead and take them down a peg or two. And so it's, it's a little easier to get that legislation enacted. Not many people are going to fuss about it too much, except for reptile keepers. And so, you know, what's the point of having legislation and laws in place that mostly and most generally are, are unenforceable. They don't have the manpower to enforce them. And second off, they, they don't do anything. They're not, I mean, like banning, you know,

Burmese pythons in Florida after they've established themselves in the wild. What is the point of that? You know, then you're just maybe contributing to more being released because, oh, all of a sudden now they're illegal and you got to get rid of them. So what do you do? You know, they might, irresponsible keepers might let them go in their backyard in Florida. So just contributing to the problem more. So I would, I would lead with that, that regulations typically are not made by people who understand or, or even care or like reptiles. They're not necessarily to help the reptiles, but more so to help their political careers. Yeah. I mean, that's an unfortunate truth. But I do think that even though a lot of these politicians that put these legislative laws and regulations out there to be to be adopted and voted on, they're advised.

And hopefully they're advised by people who are experts in, you know, their field of expertise, and hopefully they're getting some input. And I think, you know, in any type of a legislative thing, you definitely have two sides to it. And hopefully you have informed individuals who are coming in to lay credence to, you know, your, you know, your side. And I think it is unfortunate because, you know, we can all look back to the first time they tried to ban large constrictors in Florida. And, you know, the USGS put out that absolutely crap survey about, you know, rising temperatures in North America and, you know, large constrictors spreading across the, you know, the continental US. And it's, you know, large constrictors spreading across the, you know, the continental U S and it's, you know, that's just, which we've seen, right. We've seen, yeah, they're all over

the place now, man. Yeah. I swerve on the freeway. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. So yeah, I mean, obviously a bunch of crap. Um, and, and, you know, I mean, I think I would i mean it you know that certainly uh you cannot have people out there just doing whatever they want if if everything was legal then people would be out just destroying habitat and pilfering and you know there needs to be and and i think you know you you see fish and game. You see, you know, you see, you know, CITES laws out there or CITES lists out there. And those actually are there for a reason, right? I mean, you know, a lot of the animals that are on these CITES are elevation, elevated concerns for their countries of origin or their, you know, their population. And so, you know, the people who are creating CITES, they don't pull that out of nowhere. It's not just somebody making that up now do we see sometimes

you know maybe an old um you know an old taxonomical name that's outdated end up onto societies and you're like what what what are you doing like that's not that's not even current do you guys know what you're doing well you know just because they're not using modern terminology or modern taxonomy names doesn't mean that, you know, the point that they're making isn't there. So I would say that, you know, there are agencies out us who are good actors in the reptile industry. And it also sets up a consequence, hopefully, for those people who are bad actors. And, you know, I mean, I do think that it gets into a dicey thing because, you know, I know people who are smugglers, like I know people who smuggled. And do I think that they're bad people? No, they're not. Not at all. Did they do something illegal? Yeah, they totally did. But, you know, they didn't they weren't smuggling in suitcases and suitcases of animals,

you know what I mean? And so I think it's, it's, it's, you know, it's all in context, right? Um, did they break the law? Yeah. I guess I want to hit on that point that you, you mentioned, um, regarding, you know, protecting of species. Now, um, you know, one of my favorite native species in Utah is the Gila monster, right? I really enjoy those and they're really cool animals. Now it's

prohibited to own one of those in Utah, unless you are one of the lucky few that gets some kind of educational permit or something to keep those. So they're illegal to keep and breed within Utah. So, but they'll hand out permits all day long to, I mean, St. George is one of the fastest growing cities in America, you know, per capita. And it's just exploding. They used to have, so the state park, Snow Park or Snow Canyon State park that had this long road

through you know prime desert habitat and you drive for a while until you get to the gates and then you're talking about they're handing out building permits right is that now okay yeah now their houses the entire length of that they paved over that entire habitat where gila monsters would roam so you know they're not going to give me a permit to go in there before they just just destroy and demolish and pave over the habitat to collect any gila monsters are there so they'll kill them all day in the name of progress in the name of growth but then they're going to say oh no you know let's have this law to prevent you from owning one responsibly within the state. So I just find that hypocritical. You know, they say, oh, we care about the Gila monsters. We want to make it illegal to own.

And I get it. You know, I don't want to see them over collected. I want to be able to see them in the wild. And frankly, you know, they're not very active through most of the year. So you only have a short window to even see one in the wild. And I've been trying. I've only seen two in, you know, they're not very active through most of the year. So you only have a short window to even see one in the wild. And I've been trying, I've only seen two in, you know, 16 years. I should have doubled that on my last trip, but I was an hour late to see the two that they found this year. What do you do? And, you know, I've seen a few others that have been observed and that's probably a consequence of all this development is you're going to have more interactions between people and those animals. Now, I would submit that is the population getting stronger from these regulations, from prohibiting collection? I would counter, no, they're not.

The populations are being reduced and reduced, especially in these areas where they're just maybe. But not because of the regular, not because of regulation, because of urban sprawl and, you know these rules only apply to the poor little reptile hobbyist and not the big corporations? You know what I mean? Like, why do they make regulations to stop something inconsequential, like perhaps a few get collected out of the wild versus, you know, big business destroying the habitat of thousands of animals. Sure. Well, and I think it's simply just a function of money and, you know, an industry. guard are not doing a thing to protect the animals because they don't necessarily care about the animals as evidenced by their issuing permits to pave over their habitat and just, you know, make local populations become extinct in those areas. I hear what you're saying, but I think you kind of, so I kind of think you're conflating

two things, right? You're talking about, you're talking about, um, you know, the destruction of habitat, but then you're also talking about how that destruction of habitat displaces those animals. And because there's a regulation there that you can't collect those animals. So first, firstly, there's no evidence to suggest that those animals just die when that construction happens. So they're displaced for sure. Hopefully they don't die. There's plenty of evidence that animals that are relocated die pretty quickly.

And if you're paving over their habitat with them in it, are they not dying because of that? And in Southern California, there are areas that are protected wildlife areas. And I'm sure the same in Utah as well. So, I mean, I do think and granted, you know, they're not big enough. Open space, BLM land, there's not enough of it out there. And so, you know, that that shouldn't be the sole refuge for wildlife is federal property. But nonetheless – Now you're conflating things, right? Because we're talking about if we could collect an animal, if there should be precedent to collect animals and to – I'm all for protecting habitat and giving them somewhere to live in the wild.

No, no, no. I understand what you're saying. I understand what you're saying i guess what i'm saying is that in our conflations does protecting the does putting that protection on that animal hurt the animal um versus so does taking it does allowing you to take it out of the wild and keep it in captivity, does that help the animal as allowing, you know, urban sprawl are, you know, 10,000 to one as far as I'm concerned. Like if you if you allowed a few to be collected, not going to impact the populations at all. But if you allow their their habitat to be paved over, it's going to it's going to's gonna decimate you know as compared to sure it will be much more damaging and then you know there are some forward-thinking individuals that that set aside quite a large uh area of land for for the animals to to remain and to have stable

populations and that's that's very you know that's that those efforts are to be applauded. And those are the more useful, you know, areas of regulation, regulating against businesses or regulating, you know, the protection of lands. I mean, I think, you know, you're probably talking about something like eight billion people on the planet. And and, you know, like you said, when you were herping, you saw a lot of dor snakes and it's just when wildlife comes into contact with with modern human societies you know there's uh there is carnage uh for for for wildlife uh and that's unfortunate and and it's it you know it's something that as humans we should be taking into consideration doing more wildlife bridges and all these, all these things that we've seen were actually work to help protect wildlife. But, you know, fundamentally, the issue is that as a society, we just continue to grow and grow and grow and grow and grow and grow, and grow, and grow, and grow. And that, you know, in that push between animals and humans, the animals are going to lose because we're just out-competing them. We're more successful. We're

more technologically advanced, things like that. So, you know, I think that is kind of why you got to have, and so this idea that their habitat is getting smaller, they're being stressed by humans. So is putting those regulations that is meant to try to help them in the best way under our system of expansion and development and consumption, is that the best thing we can do, right? And I think the answer kind of is yes. I mean, if you look at no laws, no regulations versus having some regulations, you know, you have to, yes. Is it fucked? Yes. It's totally fucked, but you can't just be like, oh, well, it's fucked. We might as well just let everybody do whatever they want because you can't do that. You have to put in laws and regulations as a mechanism to try to control some of the downside, you know, and I think, you know, as much as Californians hated it, when the, you know, when the governor pitted almond farmers against residential people for water use, that was a tactic. That was a tactic that he used to shift blame for the price of water.

And it was so he could raise water. Well, what does raising the cost of water do or raising the cost of a resource? It causes people to have to think, okay, I cannot waste this resource like I had been because I have to pay so much for it. So it's a mechanism to incentivize conservation, right? And that's basically, you know, I mean, look, DUI, it's a law, right? If you go drive your car or you're drinking and you get caught, you get in trouble for that. Does it stop people from doing it? No, but it's there to disincentivize people

from doing something. So, you know, regulations and laws have intended benefits. And do those benefits always work out that way? No. But are we better for a seatbelt law? Are we better for not letting people drink and drive or drive under the influence of drugs? Yes. Sure. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. I didn't know we were getting into all laws. No, I'm just saying what I'm trying to talk about is functionally how laws and regulations work. The rule of law is important.

But I would say in a lot of these, they're just not well thought out. And I mean, there's plenty of examples where you can legislate an animal into extinction. And that's, you know, I think there's some good examples in Australia where the problem is not necessarily that they don't have land because Australia has plenty of natural habitat, right. And, you know, maybe some, some localized extinctions or something due to mining or due to, you know, some some some kind of farming or something out there might occur but for the most part um there's there's a lot of place for these animals to go now the the problem that i that i've seen where they've legislated animals into extinction are things like feral cats you know you've got feral cats now they have bro you know they say oh this animal's rare we're prohibiting any any person from working with them

unless they're a zoo or some other institution. But there's private individuals that care passionately about this small little rodent or marsupial species out in the middle of the desert. And they would gladly give their time and energy and money to protecting this know, a captive breeding population of those animals. Yeah. They're not allowed to do that because the government says, oh, you're not a zoo. You don't know what you're doing. You don't, you don't have enough knowledge to make this happen. Whereas, you know, that, that could potentially result in a, uh, uh, you know, an arc species, if you will, or an arc, uh, for these animals to, to weather the storm or to figure out something in the meantime to get rid of the cats, you know, and then reintroduce those to the, to the lands. And, you know, yeah,

zoos are a great place for that, but zoos have limits. I think we learned that, you know, you can't, the zoos can't breed everything. And, and a lot of times they are, they want to have flashy, you know, different species that everybody cares about or wants to see in captivity. They don't care about some little small marsupial, maybe. So it becomes difficult. And it's a very complex matter, of course. But if they just make a blanket law, says, nope, sorry, nobody, and they don't consider any alternatives, then we wind up with things like animals becoming extinct because they're protected from anybody other than a small number. the loss of native species leaving the continent and you potentially hopefully reduce the invasive

species coming into the continent now you know you know governments have done intentional releases of non-native species which have never worked out well and they still do it and i don't understand why they don't get that but But, you know, nonetheless, you know, these animals, I mean, continental boundaries are huge barriers for dispersion of animals. So, you know, the idea that you would say, hey, we don't want our animals on every continent in the world. We want our animals here and we want to manage those animals here. Now, while we make some exceptions, while we work with zoological institutions or educational institutions to permit our animals to them or export our animals to them in a documented, reasonable fashion for certain things. Yeah, they do that. They do do that. So I think what we're kind of

talking about is the average keeper just gets screwed. They're like, hey, listen, at a global level, we're not worried about Chuck and Justin's ability to keep carpet pythons. That's not our concern. As somebody who runs a continent, we're worried about our wildlife. We're worried about our native wildlife. We're worried about what happens to our wildlife when it goes other places and the damage that can cause. Because, I mean, while nobody is saying, oh, damn you, Indonesia, your freaking retics are loose in Florida now and you're screwing up our ecosystem. They certainly look at that animal and say, dang it, that thing's loose and breeding in our ecosystem, Burmese pythons, whatever, and it's causing us havoc. So I definitely think that when we talk about legislation like that and importation, exportation rules, they're there for a bigger

reason than the average keeper. And I know no one wants to hear that crap, but it is kind of true. Well, I mean, I think, I think that's pretty out, outdated and outmoded way of thinking and on their part. And I think, you know, most people who keep Australian reptiles would agree. I look at, you know, that, that actually has,, promoted smuggling. You know, you see a lot of, of these cases where people are getting caught smuggling animals. And, um, for example, you know, shingleback schemes, you're seeing so many, uh, you know, exports to China and other, uh, you know, Asian countries being interrupted or caught, you know, you wonder how many get through because these guys are sending through, you know, 30 or 50 shingleback skinks in a single shipment. And it's just ridiculous. And of course the animals suffer. So, you know, they're not, not necessarily

stopping this and it's actually getting, it seems to be getting worse. I mean, you see it pretty commonly where they'll find, find these smuggling rings or, you know, catch people getting ready to send things out. And, um, so, you know, I, I get that they care about their wildlife and that's good. Um, and I get that they want to keep that. I think the main thing is they just want to keep that their thing, you know, so you have to go visit Australia. It's kind of a tourism tactic or something to say, if you want to see these animals, you got to come to our country to see them. Now, I, you know, I, I enjoy seeing an animal in the zoo or in a cage or whatever, but you know, I'd much rather see it in the wild. So I think keeping it in, in, in my reptile room actually motivates me to want to get out to Australia.

Now, are they preventing these things? I would say no. I mean, we can get pretty much most of the interesting or exciting or species that most people want to keep. They're already available in Europe or the United States. We can actually keep some species that the Australians can't even get a hold of and keep, and they're bred commonly in the U.S. I would say one example is the leaf-tailed gecko, Phyluris amnicola, the riverine leaf-tailed gecko, which Australians are not allowed to collect or work with. Now, over here, they're bred very commonly. They're a couple hundred dollars. They're not allowed to collect or work with. Now over here,

they're bred very commonly. They're, you know, a couple hundred dollars. They're not that expensive. And there's quite a few of them, at least at the last reptile show that I noticed, there were a lot of them available for sale. And yeah, I mean, the original ones were most likely smuggled through Europe and bred there and then imported into the United States. But guess what? Nobody else is going to need to go into that habitat and smuggle the riverine leaf-tailed gecko out of Australia because there's no incentive to do that. They're already available here. They're relatively inexpensive. So why would anybody risk, you know, jail time or, or, you know, bad PR or whatever, uh, whatever, uh, stops smugglers from smuggling, you know, why would they do that when

they're an inexpensive animal here? So I think, you know, once the, the, the regulation, the strict regulation that Australia has, um, actually promotes smuggling in the first place. You know, maybe it has the intended effect where people that work with these things that have been smuggled at one point say, oh, these are really cool. I want to go see them in their natural environment. And then they, yes, smuggling still happens. It still goes on. But I think by frequency and by instance, you don't see smuggling on a grand scale. I mean, you're talking about – and they go to other countries, but we're not getting stuff from Europe anymore. Maybe not in the U.S., but Asia is grand numbers. I mean, I went to Rottnest Island, and I was hoping to see the endemic shingleback skink,

the Rottnest Island shingleback there. It's a subspecies of rugosa, but I went out there and I saw one, which was cool, and I was excited about that, and I was thinking, man, I thought they were, they were, you know, they were all over the place. And then when I got back, I saw that somebody had gotten busted that had collected like 50 or 60 of them off this Island, which, you know, obviously has a, we, we rode around the Island in a day, so it's not the hugest Island in the world. So it's got a limited population and to take 60 adult shinglebacks from the island that's going to have an impact so you know it's not serving this but so you know uh kind of what we're talking about is stuff's not coming out of europe anymore why because

europe cracked down and the u.s has cracked down and so those those smuggling supply chains are harder to move through anymore. So because some Asian countries are not enforcing the other end of Australian exportation, it incentivizes smugglers to... So it has to... it has to, you know, if you're going to put a regulation to stop something, it has to be enforced on both ends. Otherwise, you're absolutely going to have people who are like, oh, cool. All I have to do is get it out of Australia and then get it over to Asia. And I'm cool. That's no problem. But if Asia is like, hey, we're not doing that. That's not cool. We're going to respect Australia's laws and Australia's regulations. Then what you see is smuggling goes down, just like that supply chain that came from Australia

to Europe to the US. And Europe and the US said, okay, enough. We're not going to do that. I don't think it's Europe. I think it's the US said, we're not going to allow anything in from Europe. I think they're still being smuggled into Europe, especially certain countries within Europe, you know, and and especially within Asia. And then, you know, Europeans and Americans may import from Asians as well. So I guess the bottom line is they're still being smuggled. And then once they get in Europe and Asia, there is some kind of drive to breed them so they don't have to go through the risks of smuggling. And once you have healthy established populations, there's no need to smuggle anymore. So I guess I just think it's kind of foolish of the Australian government not to say, hey, let's capitalize on this. Let's legally export certain things,

you know, that are have healthy populations. We can do an economic or environmental impact study and make sure that we're not over harvesting something, but something like shinglebacks, where over there, you know, they're they're not very expensive. They're kind of looked on as just like a lower starter beginner animal, whereas beginner animal. Whereas over here, people are paying 10, $20,000 a piece. If the, if the Australian government said, Hey, okay, we're going to allow the export of these bonded pairs of shingle backs to the U S and Europe. And we're going to send out, you know, uh, 60 pairs each, you know, that would, that would start something going in, in Europe and Asia or in the U S and, and, uh, potentially would result in the need to not smuggle them anymore, you know, and, and would definitely, um, uh, slow down the ability of

smugglers to say, Hey, let's make a lot of money off of these animals because then they can't, they can't sell them for 10 grand anymore when you can get them through australia legally for you know a few hundred dollars well and i think you can see the the exportation of green tree pythons uh as as kind of an example of that right so you know if there was no if there was no rules around that and they just let whatever you know however much you could take out over here, that obviously would not be good. That would be probably over, you know, it would be too much take from the environment. Now, and I know there's been argument around that, and maybe it's an inconsequential, you know, amount of animals, you know, but the fact of the matter is, as these animals lose for, for export,

which is, which was revealed by Natushin and his colleagues to be, um, completely, uh, fabricated on most accounts where they were just taking wild animals and marking them as farm bred. So they weren't curbing, you know, with those, those regulations weren't necessarily curbing collection from the wild, but what it did show was that- Or the way they were enforcing those regulations was insufficient to ensure that they weren't pulling the bait and switch with wild-caught animals. And most, most governments don't have the budget to enforce these laws. And so they put the laws in place, just hoping that people will be good

citizens and ignore the fact that they can't enforce them while they're enforcing more, you know, other, uh, more pressing matters like DUIs or murder. But going back to those examples, I mean, you know, uh, you, you, at some level, that's what putting a regulation or a law into effect is, is that it's, it's just a discouragement. Are you going to stop it? No. Will you always have, you know, the, the enforcement capacity to catch 100% of it? No. But when it's found, there's a mechanism to hold people accountable who are breaking those rules, right? Sure. I mean, it just seems like the mechanism and the ways to hold accountable are

woefully inadequate. I mean, I know a repeat offender within Australia who's been caught multiple times smuggling and having illegal animals in their collection. And they get a little slap on the wrist. They get a little fine. And they were making, you know, 10x more money from the illegal animals than the fine was worth. You know, so there's no disincentive to stop. And so they're multiple offenders. They keep doing the same things over and over, which, you know, frankly, is bad for reptile keepers in general and bad for the, you know, the hobby in general. So, I mean, these regulations are useless in that case.

So, well, but at the same right, you know, one could say the exact same thing about environmental regulations. Manufacturing sectors regularly break environmental laws because the fine, uh, is far less, uh, than the money that they're going to make by, by cutting their costs, by not having to properly dispose or properly, uh, you know, um, put, put, uh, controls on their emissions. So, you know, it's not, it's not just reptiles. It's, but at the same time, what is that is, is the argument, fuck it. It doesn't work. We might as well have no rules. We might as well. I never, but that's my point is not, not to say that we should have anarchy and just do whatever we want, but that we need to have effective. If we're going to go to

the extent of making a rule it shouldn't be for somebody's political career it should be to actually help the problem because the people making these laws that you know the the big businesses just break because they can easily afford the fine it's it just kind of you know what's the point it's not doing what it was meant to do so why have that but that's but that? But that's not the, that's not the, the regulations fault. That's the enforcement of it. And that's, no, no, it's the regulation fault because when they put it in, they didn't have enough forethought to say, okay,

when we catch somebody doing this, we're going to find them tenfold what they made from their illegal activities. You know what I mean? Like, it's just like you put some blanket fine on it, and they go, well, if we're going to do this illegally, we just got to make more enough money to be able to cover the fine, and we're good to go. You know, they get it's basically amounts to just a slap on the wrist. And so, like I said, these repeat offenders are allowed to keep a repeat offending. You know, I had a wildlife regulator from Australia come to me and interview me because I witnessed some firsthand illegal activities

involving animals. And I thought, oh, this will do it. This will put him away. You know, this will put him in jail or or stop him from doing this. And I heard not too long after that, he was back at his old games making, you know, doing illegal activities with animals. It had no effect, no impact on him. He's still basically at large and doing things to cheat people over, to bring in illegal animals, to, you know, all the things that these rules are supposed to protect from or to prevent. But it does nothing. So what's the point of having that? So we have an issue around a weighted set of consequences, right? When it comes to wildlife and animals, those consequences aren't the same thing as if you do, if you human traffic people or you, you know, you abuse people,

there's, there's real hard consequences. Or you have a little marijuana on you, you know, you get 15 years in jail for that. Well, I don't know, not in California anymore. Not anymore, but I mean, it used to be, oh, and those, those rules were made to, to basically to pick on, you know, black people or, you know, the minorities because they say, oh, that's a, you know, that's those, those early laws were basically racist laws for the most part. And so, you know, it was a way to target people. It's a cheap way. If you don't have the correct or the, you know, the real motive in mind. If you don't care about the drugs, what you care about is pushing down a race or a people,

then yeah, the law is flawed. And that's my contention with these regulations that are in place, is they're not necessarily to protect the wildlife or to do anything about that. They're just there to make the politicians feel better about themselves or to get reelected. That's my take on a lot of these laws.

Now, are there some wildlife laws and environmental laws that are useful? Most politicians don't say, hey, I stopped the exportation of carpet pythons. Sure they do. Oh, come on. They don't give a crap about that. Maybe in Australia they do they you know we will prevent those you know americans from keeping our reptiles well i think they'll be like hey we their original intention was but whatever their original intention was is not working because

we have access to just about any you know australian reptile that we want to keep over here for the most part that are you'll say well, we had a, we had a shark that, that killed somebody. And so we went and found that shark and we killed it. So you all can feel safe. So, I mean, I don't, I don't necessarily think that they're looking at the conservation piece of it at, you know, and touting that as they're now, certainly that's, you know, I get it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's not their mainstay of their campaign. But necessarily, I just... I don't know, man. I hear what you're

saying. I understand what you're saying. And you're right. What I'm trying to defend is a flawed system. And I would argue that if you want to talk flawed systems and regulation, it's across the board. It's everything that we talk about is a flawed system. So you have to do the best that you can. And if you have lots of money and you can buy off your financial regulators or your environmental regulators or those government agencies that are set up to watch you and you have that much money, then you're going to win that. And that's what you see with polluters. That's what you see with financial institutions that cheat consumers and get away with it. And you don't necessarily see that with sm you know with smugglers you don't see them getting in

trouble for this because that's not where the focus is it's not it's not and and so you know again they don't they don't really care right it's not about the animals it's about you know whatever you know motivation they had in the first place which was either re-election or you know i gotta do something and this is an easy thing to do i don't know like i don't i don't honestly know why the australian government doesn't allow some limited export of you know animals that are that are very stable populations across the country yeah and i mean it it is kind of interesting because you know you can get permits and and you can be properly uh permitted to own very dangerous animals here in the united states uh large cats you know uh and i mean really any depends on your

state but really anything right um so you, there's definitely depends on where you live. Right. Right. Depending upon, right. That's what I was saying. But, you know, does that, you know, that's, there's, there is a process in place for that. There is a legal way to do that. And, and as we've seen, you seen, people who don't follow those processes, people who don't do it legally get held accountable for that. And yes, is the wheels of justice when it comes to animals slow and flawed and probably not as good as it should be? Yes, absolutely. But that's not where people's focuses are. And, you know, just like for environmental regulation, the EPA is not funded the same way that trade and commerce is, right? And it's just a function of focus, right? Focus

and priority. So, you know, I mean, I do think that, you know, every, and when you're talking about laws and regulations, shouldn't states, countries have the right to put forth legislation that they think will protect animals? Now, do they always do it right? No. Do they always focus on it right? No. But can we agree that regulation should be there for them if they need it? And yes, as things get worse, those regulations need to have some teeth. They need to work work they need to have some function um the problem is we're just not doing it right right now we're not doing it well um and and i think some of it like australia's you know no exportation kind of rules is is just kind of silly but i i definitely think having those rules is important right uh And they just need to make sense.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's, that's for sure. And, and, you know, having a nanny state, which, you know, Oh, we know better than you do. And when there's, I guess I have issue when there's no way to do the things you love or the things you want to do, as long as it's not, you know, impacting somebody else's life. I think, you know, there should as long as it's not, you know, impacting somebody else's life. I think, you know, there should be a way to do that. You know, if I want to keep venomous snakes in Utah, there should be a legal way for me to do that. Yeah. Should there be a license or should there be some kind of check and balance? Of course, you know, that's not a problem to me, but when they just blanket say prohibit, you know, prohib's not a problem to me. But when they just blanket, say, prohibit, you know, prohibit everything, yet you can open, you know, carry a gun around and there's no consequence for that. I mean, you know, that's a strange thing to me, you know, where they care so much about, oh, you know, you can't keep a venomous reptile, but go ahead and keep these guns in your house. No, no big deal. That's just fine.

So I guess I just disagree with the hypocrisy and kind of those motivations for a lot of these legislative actions. We're just not equitable. We're just not equitable as we regulate danger in our society. So you can get in a car, but you can't, you know, you can't own me shit you shouldn't tell me shit there shouldn't you shouldn't be putting rules you shouldn't be making laws we should be able to do and keep what we want it's like the gun argument if i want a rocket launcher i should be able to have one but why but why you don't need one like i get it i get it rocket launchers are cool i think they're fucking cool too but but you don't need one. Right. Um, and so, you know, I, I do think that the part of the problem is that people, and, and, you know, rather than get engaged and I, and I'm, again, I'm probably

going to get jumped on for this, but you know,, everybody loves U.S. ARC because they're fighting for us and they give money to them. And, you know, but people want the easy, right? They want to say, like, hey, I donate to U.S. ARC and U.S. ARC is going to go out there and take care of my right to do what I want. And I think, yes, that's true. But at the same time, like, you know, you also have to be willing to get involved because not all legislation is bad legislation. Not all things that we do as a society, you, laws that actually make sense and, you know, group like U.S. ARC that, you know, they're a handful of people. They work off of a limited, you know, donated budget. And here they are running around all 50 states trying to put out all these fires. And that, and, you know, it's tough. And I'm not saying that people don't get engaged. I'm not saying that there's not people out there doing things. There are. I understand that.

But at the same time, we have to understand that not all regulation is bad regulation. But we see so many examples, like you've talked about, of people just doing it to do it. Not real regulation, but just saying, yeah, Burmese pythons are in the Everglades. We're going to do this so that I can say I address this so it's a feather in my hat for reelection. Not necessarily really addressing those issues. I mean, if wildlife regulations are done properly, I think they can definitely have a big impact. Do I think animals should just be stripped from the wild, you know, irregardless of the consequence? No. And do I think habitat should be destroyed looking for animals? Of course not. You know, there should be rules and laws. There should be something, but they need to have the intended effect and they need

to be enforceable to some extent. And granted, I mean, yeah, governments have limited budgets and we don't want to pay extra taxes so they can go, you know, sniff out the minor crimes. We don't want to have an anti-state necessarily. And I do think we kind of need to police ourselves. And that goes a long way. You know, if you're, if you're not supporting people who are obviously engaged in illegal activities, you know, if you're, if you're asking questions, you know, I want to see pictures of eggs hatching now, you know, reptile people have a hard time when they see something that they've wanted their whole lives and they see it available and they're like, well, it's probably smuggled, but I really want it. So I'm not going to think

about it, you know, and that's, I think we have a responsibility to uphold that law. If we really care about these animals, we need to be able to say, okay, that looks fishy. I'm not going to go for that. And I, and I've been offered, you know, some, um, Australian reptiles that I was told were smuggled. And I'm like, uh, I think I'll pass on that. I don't want to be involved with that. You know, do I think, do I fault others if they do that and then captive breed them and make them available? I, no, I don't, you know, but it's just something that I personally, and that's probably hypocritical, critical too. Cause if, you know, if I'm willing to take the benefit of it and be able to work with the animals, but I'm not,, and that's probably hypocritical too, because if, you know, if I'm willing to take the benefit of it and be able to work with the animals, but I'm not. I think that's your moral

constitution, right? Like you're kind of talking about, you're talking about you and you don't, but, but, you know, in the larger scheme of things, you realize how silly some of this stuff kind of is. And so, you know, um, my moral constitution is not, yeah, I don't necessarily fault others for doing it. Now, it depends on how you're doing it. If you're doing it recklessly and you're doing it, you know, to an extreme, like, yeah, problems get bigger, you know, more legislation is going to be proposed. That is just, you know, laws and rules and, you know, are the way that the framework of our societies feels like they can move things, you know, into the future. Right. So we're, as things get tougher, as problems get bigger, we're going to see potentials for more legislation, more laws, more rules. And I think rather than have this attitude of like, ah,

you're not going to fucking tell me what to do with my animals. I have every right to own anything I want. I should be able to get it. Understand that if that's going to be your attitude, they'll just make that decision for you and you won't be a part of it. But being at the table, accepting the fact that, hey, it is these agencies and governments' rights to enact these laws. And it's probably your obligation, if you disagree with those laws, to get involved

and make sure that you're giving valuable input, giving valuable knowledge, contributing, not just sending money, but also being involved. Your money works, but you yourself are probably more valuable than just your money. Well, and that's definitely the value of USARC is they're out there alerting people to things that are happening in their state so they can contact their congressperson and say hey this is not cool with me you know i'm i'm your i'm your constituents and i disagree with this and here's why you give them a you know a rational logical well thought out answer they're going to have to listen to that because they're and and the more of you that you can gather and the more power you have. And so we need that USARC to protect our rights and to prevent

silly legislation that has no teeth, that has no impact on what, you know, what they want it to do or what they think it's going to do. If we have well thought out responses and we have people in our corner, you know, that goes a heck of a long way. And so, you know, we need to support that. And then I guess that's my kind of final thought is I'm just against useless legislation. You know, if there's rules that actually protect the animals, preserve habitat, but also provide some kind of, you know, way to be able to work with some of these things, if, you know, somebody's so desires and is willing to go to the effort and jump through hoops to be able to work with some of these things, if, you know, somebody so desires and is willing to go to the effort and, and jump through hoops to be able to do that, there should be a path for that. And, you know, granted, some things may not fall under that. But I think there's very few

exceptions to that, where if you're responsible, if you have the correct setup, if you have the correct, you know, way to keep them. And if you have an outlet in case you lose that interest or you move on to something else, I think that, you know, there should be no reason in America why you, why you shouldn't be able to do that responsibly. So that's kind of my, my, my final thoughts on that. Nice. Yes. I mean, and, you know, I think that, you know, laws and regulation have their place. And I think ridiculous, you know, rules and regulations that don't address these issues. But when something is really a problem, I think it's important that every reptile keeper be honest and say, yeah, you know what? That is an issue. We do need to do some stuff. I think, you know, hunting permits for the Burmese python are probably a great idea.

Let people go out there. Let people take those things out of the wild. Sure. No problem. You know? Yeah. And if they only find, you know, if they only find five, great. You know, if they find 50, great.

Like, it's just, you know. Unless they're a redneck saying, hey, that yellow rat snake, that's a Burmese python. I got to kill it. You know, there's always some danger that's a Burmese Python. I got to kill it. There's always some danger to that, that attitude as well. Sure. I mean, yeah, hopefully you're not that willfully ignorant, uh, to, to, as to, you know, what you're hunting. Um, and, but I would argue that, you know, um, there's plenty of hunters who are conservationists who really get that piece of, I think, I think, unfortunately, a lot of hunters and not that there's not a lot of redneck ass hunters that, you know,

just want to get drunk and shoot guns and are dangerous when they're out there and, and probably reckless. But I think the vast majority of, you know, wildlife, uh, sporters are, you know, environmentally conscious conservation minded people, uh, just to put that out there. Um, and you know, I just, I think that, um, you know, laws and regulations have their place. And I don't think we're going to be in a place in the future where we can afford to just blanket pushback off of everything that comes our way. Because, you know, Fish and Wildlife and other agencies, they don't really have to listen to us. They can enact all that stuff really without us. And if they decide that it is such a gross problem, they'll just go ahead and do it. And we can fight it.

And in the end, if they can make the case, then they will win. And I think when it comes to stuff like that, we have to be involved. We have to be, like you said, the dumb legislation doesn't make any sense. And so let's not, let's not, let's not let dumb legislation go through because, you know, if we're there and we're involved, let's get that politician who just wants the W and he doesn't care how he gets the W or what it looks like. Let's get him out of there. Let's, let's make the W a W for the animals and a W for reptile keepers. You know what I mean? So- Well, and again, you know, USR can play a really great role in that where

they can, you know, propose changes to legislation. Absolutely. Maybe legislation is good, but it's flawed in some way that's not going to actually protect the animals. If they're in there giving suggestions, hey, that's a great idea, but maybe you would consider this. So I think that's another way that organizations like USR can play a positive role in putting forth reasonable and well-thought-out and good legislation that actually protects the animals. I think zoos, I think educational institutions, scientifically based research, um, you know, and, and, um, well thought outspoken individuals in our community can support that effort to create positive, uh, outcomes around legislation and, and reptile rules, you know? Um, so yeah, I think that's

probably where I would go. I, you know, do we have a long way to go? Is a lot of it just, you know, that low hanging fruit you talked about earlier, Justin? Yes. Yes, it is. And that's, and I get, that's why people are frustrated. I get that's why people just completely are like, nope, 100%. Nope. Not doing this. Don't, don't care. Here's my money, USARC. Fight these people all the way. I, I get that. I do get that. But as somebody who, you know, is, is an, is an environmental science, understands what's going on with our environment and, and, and has kind of a, a bigger idea of, of the, you know, the impact that we're having on our environment. I think we need to consider well thought out, you know, well,

well done legislation that we can contribute to. So it's not just a ridiculous car wreck. So that's, that's, that's where I'd end. All right, man. Well, you know, there's probably more things we missed and things we didn't consider. So if you guys out there listening, you know, have other aspects. I think down the road we'll probably put out a show where we kind of talk about some of the stuff that we did miss. So if you've got some ideas or if you're listening and you have a good idea of a topic, you know, let us know, get it,

we'll get you on here. So if you, if you come to us with an idea for, be prepared to have somebody you want to fight and, and bring them on. I had a, a funny experience. So, um, I, I was approached by somebody to be on their podcast. It's um and and you know well that'll come out in a bit here but um so i said well yeah come on our podcast too and i said you want to fight anybody he said yeah i got somebody in mind and so i said yeah go ahead and invite him and so uh in the meantime this individual was like was it a a reptile show and he showed some pictures he bought some um darwin crossed with inland right to make you know inland albinos or whatever the darwin cross albinos and and i was like oh you

know what what did they but they they somehow produced 50 heads so they were like 75 inland 25 darwin possible head for albino and they were like 100 bucks a piece like what is the point of that so i was kind of like you know be poo-pooing the why did they even make those like what's the point of that and i was a little upset about that and so he's like oh you know he thought i i got upset i'm like it doesn't matter you know know, they're, they're snakes in a box, but I, I wouldn't have made those and I don't know why they made those, but anyway. And so he was thinking I was a little upset. And then all of a sudden this guy comes up to him at the reptile show and he

says, Justin Julander said to fight you. He thought it was because of the, uh, the, the integrated carpets, but it was to be on the podcast so i thought it was just perfectly timed really uh so i got a good laugh out of that i thought it was pretty funny so we'll have those guys on the show here soon we have a few more guests lined up um next week should be pretty fun so stay tuned for that and All you out there, don't have to listen to the windbag co-hosts go on and on and on. Mostly that's us going, oh, crap, we got to get a show out. So we'll throw something together.

No, you know, I do enjoy debating with you. We literally picked this topic right before we went on. So hopefully that didn't show too badly. But we're trying to get more guests on so yeah like you didn't like chuck said you don't have to listen to us the whole time but yeah we're enjoying i enjoy i enjoy these topics and it's good to kind of think them through and come up with some you know ideas and even if people are like gosh these guys are idiots i mean i would have said this and i would have said that like, Hey, cool. As long as people are thinking about it and people are, you know, engaged in, in kind of the ideas, uh, that that's the important part to me. So, yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. All right,

man. Well, um, hope you guys enjoyed and we'll, we'll catch you soon for, for another episode. Um, check out all the podcasts under the Morelia Pythons Network umbrella, and you won't be disappointed. We'll catch you soon for another episode of Reptile Fight Club. Have a good one. Later, everybody. See you. so Thank you.