Reptile Fight Club - The Pros & Cons of Field Collecting.

Episode Date: December 29, 2023

In this episode, Justin and Rob tackle the topic "the pros and cons of field collecting" with Dustin Grahn Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

all right welcome to another edition of Reptile Fight Club. Sorry, we've kind of been out of order a bit. We haven't been recording many shows lately. This is partly due to a few different things. On a sad note, Chuck is bowing out as the co-host. So I'm really sad to lose Chuck and, and hopefully he'll make his way back someday. But for now I am Chuckless again and fight club bill. But we,

we do have a, a wonderful replacement for, for Chuck at this time. And my good friend, Bob rock, Rob Stone. Thanks for being here and thanks for co-hosting for at least the foreseeable future and we'll see how

if Chuck ever decides to come back, his seat's always open. Yep, just keeping the seat warm for him. Should he change his mind or circumstances or whatever, no worries at all. Yeah. But Rob comes with a wealth of experience, very smart guy, good herping buddy. So it'll be fun to fight a bit with old Bob Rock. Old Bobby Pebbles, as Schmitty calls him. I think that's still my favorite nickname for you.

I hope you like it. Anyway. Yeah, it's not too bad. We've also got a returning, recurring guest tonight, Dustin Grahn. Welcome back. Hello. He's another of our herping buddies. So I thought we'd start out with a nice, easy show with friends and get another episode in the queue here and hopefully keep these going again. You know, we'll see how the dynamics shift, or we won't have Chuck's witty humor for the show,

but I'm sure Mr. Stone can fill in well there as well. So, yeah, today we're going to talk a little bit about field collection. But, I don't know, how are you guys doing? How's everything going with the collections and stuff? We're going to talk a little bit about field collection. I don't know. How are you guys doing? How's everything going with the collections and stuff? Dustin, how about you start? How are you doing? Things are going good. Finally slowing down a little bit. Trying to spend every waking moment herping or cleaning reptiles. Yeah. I imagine you have a little more free time in the winter.

Yeah. When the field is not calling. Yeah. I know how it feels, but I'm, I'm itching to get back out there already, man. I don't know. It's, I miss it, miss it already, but it is kind of nice to have that break. Yeah. It'll be, it'll be back soon enough. Yeah, for sure. How was your season? Pretty good. Herping season last year. Yeah, it was, it was pretty good. I mean, Utah was a blast. Yeah. That was a good, good trip. That's a big highlight, you know, a little, little lighter this year,

but still got out with some good friends, saw some cool snakes. What was your highlight in arizona oh oh probably the oscurus or not oscurus sorry sorry i don't know why is it that i'm like wait you found oscurus oh no that's a saga that's a saga yeah that's pretty cool yeah i've been looking into some obscure stuff Yeah And you didn't get your car taken away Or anything so that's good Yeah You made it out there safe and made it back Finding Massasauga and not losing Any equipment in the process

So that's good It was fun to hang out with you In Chicago It was probably a little too late in the season But I was thinking man it would be Wouldn't be too far to drive out and look for Massasaugas, but I didn't, uh, end up doing that at all, but that would have been cool. It was kind of a short trip. Yeah. There's a little, little pond behind our hotel. So we went and looked for some garter snakes, but we didn't see anything. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's hard when you don't really know the area very well, but,

and it's kind of late in the season, but yeah, someday it'd be nice to go out to snake road or something. That'd be cool. Oh yeah. Yeah. One of those things you got to do it at some point. Right. Yeah. Um, yeah, that was, uh, it was definitely a great trip in Utah. That liar snake you found was, was pretty big highlight. And yeah, we, we, we had a good, good trip with a lot of the rare stuff. I can't believe we didn't see any gopher snakes. That was really weird.

No, no gopher snakes to be found. And we were in their habitat pretty much the whole trip. They're one of the almost gimmies and i just can't believe we didn't find one i know i really wanted to see one too yeah well we'll give it another shot i'm sure sure we'll have uh plenty of chances to yeah we gotta find more uh pyros up there anyway so yeah exactly you gotta find one when i'm there or or another pair. That would be cool. I wouldn't mind seeing that.

Yeah. These guys found a pair of pyros breeding in the middle of the trail. Well, I was still at home. I hadn't left yet. So Rob called it. He's like, we're going to find a pyro while you're sitting at home. And he called a shot and they found him. So, yeah, just more reasons to get out there, but yeah, I'm, uh, I'm already, uh, making plans, get getting out there. So hopefully I can, uh, do, do a good bit of herping this year. Um, me and, uh, my wife are going to go out to, uh, Baja in, uh, January kind of towards the end of January, go look for whale sharks. So not quite herping, but it should be cool. It's kind of a bucket list item. La Paz. So yeah, we'll be on

the Baja side. So I don't know. I'm curious to see, like I need to scope it out a bit and find out if there's many records during the winter. But yeah, hopefully I can sneak in a little bit of herping. We won't have cars or anything, but yeah, it's, it's down there away. So you'd think it would be somewhat, but it looks like the water's a little chilly, especially considering we were on the other side on the mainland side and it was like bathtub warm in October. But I think it cools down a bit between October and January. So unfortunately, we won't have bathtub water, but it should be cool regardless.

Yeah, looking forward. Luckily, Heidi's passport came through really quick with no issues. So she's set and we're ready to go. So I'm about ready for a passport update. It's kind of crazy that how fast that comes around. But, you know, I'm missing Australia, too. I got a notice from Luke on or a messenger message from Luke over in Australia. He just did a South Australia trip and found a bunch of cool stuff.

And he's showing me all the Delaney nob tail geckos that he found. I'm like, come on. I was right there. And it was just cold. There was nothing moving. So that was kind of a bummer. He found like five or six of them, you know, just sat on the night of looking. So I guess they're pretty easy to find as long as it's not a 15 degrees Celsius. So

give it another shot. Yeah. That was a cool, cool place. It'd be, be a good one. I'm still now I'm waffling on the, the, the, uh, 50th, my, my 50th birthday trip over there. I'm thinking central Australia is kind of calling my name. There's so many targets over there. I don't know if you guys would be up for Central Australia or you like set on Western Australia. I mean, Australia is Australia. No, I think that's pretty good. Yeah, Central has got some really cool stuff. Cool scenery, cool reptiles in general. So a lot of my favorites. I need to find a bread lie and, and, uh, uh, several, uh,

multifaceted and a Western, uh, occipitalis a bunch of different, uh, yeah, the, the Western Centralian blue tongues, the, uh, Centralian knobtails, Centralian pythons, so many Centralian things I need to find. Yeah, but I don't know. I love the canyons of Central Australia. It's a pretty

cool spot. So I think it'd be a good trip all around. A little more logistically difficult, but feasible. Yeah. Easier to do. Not quite as far as flying over toult, but... Feasible, yeah. Yeah, but not too bad. Easier to do. Yeah, not quite as far as flying over to WA, but... Yep, so, I don't know.

If you feel strongly the other way, let me know. I'm sure you can talk me into something else if you really want to. I'm thinking Central Australia is calling my name. Especially Matt Teejan was just over there. Yeah, that sounds good. Oh, I saw his pictures. I know. He found so many cool things.

He got, like, what, three or four Glebo Palma? That was pretty sweet, you know. That'd be a good one to see. And the Gillens. Gillens, yep. And he found some Centralian nobtails. And I don't think he got a Centralian Python, right? He didn't get any bread. I don't think so.

Yeah. But yeah, cool spot. So I think that's, that's kind of what's pulling me at this stage. I haven't been since 2010, so it's been a little while about time to go back. Um, yeah. So anything else exciting in your reptile lives? I don't think so. Just planning out trips, man, you know, getting, getting excited for it in the downtime and all good at the Florida trip you missed out on cause you had to go to Australia. You know, well, you guys went to the gecko thing and then, uh, you know, had to go to australia you know well you guys went to the gecko thing and then uh you know had to go to australia i guess but uh yeah that was a good

trip fun to go out you know always fun to be with nipper and uh nipper and eric and phil you know it's a good group but uh and then yeah a lot of time with kj meeting kj and then hanging out with him quite a bit and um yeah so that was really good. That's cool. Yeah. I don't think I've met KJ that I can remember. Sorry if I've met you before KJ, but if you listen, but yeah, it's, uh, that pine snake was pretty sweet. Yeah, it was. Yeah. That was, that was definitely a, uh, you know, that was a perk. And then the, where we were at for the most part, we didn't have service, but, uh, at that point, and we were supposed to meet K part we didn't have service but uh at that point and we were supposed to meet kj out there like he was going to come up later in the afternoon and

um we were so out of you know out of pocket on the the service that uh we just weren't able to connect so it'd be into and out of service and trying to figure out where we were at based on texts and all that and uh phil's service came through when we were at the Pine Snake. And so Phil answered the phone and KJ said, where are you guys at? And the answer was, we are at the Pine Snake. And you can imagine even a jaded Central Florida herper, KJ was definitely excited and excited for us. So that was really good. Yeah. It's nice to knock out those more difficult targets for sure. So, yeah, I guess I'm curious what your highlight of the year was, Rob, for finds in this last season.

Well, yeah, I don't know. That's tough. There's been a ton of cool stuff, as you guys mentioned. And the Utah trip was fantastic. That Gila monster that you found, just in terms of, I know, well, for all of us, right, the photos that we were able to take, I know, are special to all of us out of that one. That was a stunning animal and really able to take special artistic shots of that animal and stuff. So that's definitely up there for sure. Yeah, you can't beat that backdrop of the red rocks.

Like, I mean, the first one's definitely cool, of course, but it was in like under a sagebrush or something kind of in the dirt, you know, it's not really as photogenic as one sitting on the slick rock, you know, the red rocks. So I'd agree. That was one of my highlights. And the time that went into that, right. You know, how much we were out there for it too was really, was really cool as well. Yeah. It's funny how they, yeah, they just sit and walk, walk right over your tracks and we're sitting there scanning so intently and missing the ones that are coming out right as we

leave or something. I don't know. I get, maybe they're just, you know, they, they know what they're doing and they wait for the big monkeys to leave before they start cruising around. So, uh, Yeah. And then the price, I guess we're cool too. And I was glad to just not die. That was a, that was a crazy adventure of the first slash second one yeah like i came we right so you guys had taken off and then i thought well it can't be harder to go over the top and then that was not correct uh yeah at least with the line of approach that Tom and I had taken that, that wasn't right.

So yeah, definitely reached the point in the venture where like surviving in one piece was the primary mission. Yeah. It was a little, little sketchy, but what a, what a cool, I mean, I don't know. I just love going to a spot that, you know, I guess is close to where you'd expect to find them, but far enough away that it seems a little more novel. Is that cryptic enough? But yeah, just kind of saying this looks like good habitat and checking it out and being right, you know, I guess finding one. So that was definitely a thrill. I think Rob and I also have an honorable mention of the Arizona pyro. Yeah, that was, Oh yeah, that was super fun, man. That was super fun, man. You got double experience around the whole thing. No broken arms, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeahashed heads. Yeah. Seemed dodgy for a second. Yeah. Yeah, that story of you guys lifting the giant rock or stump or whatever and, don't let go. I've got the snake. Don't let go. Don't squish me. Don't squish me, bro. All of our arms and your head and, yeah, it was pretty good. It's like.

The things we do. We don't need to see what happens if you drop a 250 pounder act or whatever. A bunch of bones. Yeah. Well, I ended up going back down to St. George kind of later in the early fall, I guess, and taking a couple of those California Kings back down to close to where we found their mother and releasing them back into the wild. So that was pretty cool. Um, I met a, another friend on the way down there. Um, it was, it was, uh, no, I wasn't down there

for very long and I only had like maybe an hour. I mean, yeah, I saw a side botched lizard, which is a pretty much a guarantee. If you, if you walk anywhere in the area, you know, you're going to be a side botched lizard. But yeah, I, I, I went out in the middle of the day and, you know, kind of released them into a nice crack or burrow that, you know, that would at least give them some security in the immediate future and let them kind of get their bearings and stuff. So hopefully it's a good spot. One was there. So it wasn't quite the same area that we,

we found them in. It was a little, little bit away just because, you know, where we found them was kind of in a neighborhood almost, you know, really close to people. And so I,

I put them a little closer where we found the helis. So yeah, in that area. So yeah, I, you know, I, I kind of want to see, uh, uh, Cal King in that red rock habitat. That would be cool. So maybe, uh, releasing a couple in that area. So we'll just have to check in on them. Yep. Yeah. So pretty, uh, pretty nice experience, I guess,

to be able to put some back, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. That'd be great. Yeah. But man, what a,

what a great year. And I'm looking forward to, to more, I think the, for, for me, um, I really enjoyed seeing those Gidgee skinks. That was

kind of a, a lifer for me and seeing those walk around, crawling around on the rocks and stuff. And especially since like the conditions weren't great and we were almost left because it was kind of cold and we could kind of see the sun trying to make its appearance. And, and then it ended up coming through and they started, uh, coming out a little bit to bask and so we Jordan spotted one and as I was going over to look at that one there was another one just on the next crack over so it was pretty cool those conditions sound kind of like our labor day

kind of waiting will it come through and peek on us and all that exactly that's very cool and 40 shingle bags holy moly yeah those they were all over the place it must be uh prime time for shingle bags so might not find geckos but we saw about 40 shingle bags yeah it was uh it's crazy and we stopped for every every stinking one of them. It was like they just don't get old. I don't know. It was so cool. And I know they're cool. I can't even imagine one, let alone 40. Yeah. And I talked. Who was that? Somebody on the message board was like, you know, I drove up from this spot to this spot in South Australia and I saw about 20 shinglebacks, you know, on my drive and I'm like, okay, is that like exaggeration? And no, it was not exaggeration.

It was, it was actual 20 shinglebacks, you know? So yeah, it was pretty cool. But yeah, there's something about seeing one of those things just making its way across the road. Sorry, go ahead. A hundred percent. The part that's so crazy about that is just they're given their low fecundity, right? The number in the population to support seeing that must be insane. Yeah. And they must. Which is awesome. Yeah.

They've got to have a pretty long lifespan, and they've got to have pretty low predation rates, I'd imagine, especially where they're out in the middle of the day, just cruising across the road. They're pretty tough. I mean, they've got some pretty thick scalation and, and, uh, you know, they can get, get a little, uh, defensive if, if they need to. Yeah. Yeah.

So they're already kind of starting out with, uh, you know, in, in good, good condition. So they, you know, it just must be a factor of them living a long time and being able to produce and, and just have a good, healthy population and maybe low competition from their cohorts. I don't know. Since they're vegetarian and that Moloch, that's another, well, maybe the central Australia terrible could be able to take that one, but yeah that's such a cool animal yeah yeah it's and it's always nice when you kind of do your you know do your due diligence you find a spot where they've been found before and you're like

okay let's hit this and nobody really um i mean they they checked our work i guess that you could say but nobody really told us where to go. But they saw, OK, you're going there. That's a good spot to go. And so that gives you a little more confidence. But, you know, where we'd struck out on some of the other targets, it's like, ah, you know, maybe hopefully we'll find one. And sure enough, you know, it's unmistakable, like that little gate they have and, you know, kind of that chameleon walk and the, the tail kind of arched up a little bit. That's yeah. You see it from a mile away. It was pretty, pretty exciting. So

yeah, it was pretty cool. Yeah. And that's super fun too, to be in, uh, you know, at least the way I like to do the trips, right. Is to exactly that process you just described where it's, it's not saying, Hey, tell me where to go. It's instead trying to figure it out for yourself. And then, yeah, if you can have a little audit on that, that's pretty good. You know, and that was basically our Florida situation as well, you know, in terms of and I think I'm sure, you know, everyone who has a local area, you know, or whatever that they're known for, it happens. But I know KJ just gets hammered for that stuff. So that initially he was,

you know, I told him we were coming and he was like, oh, okay. And I think it was clear that he wanted to vet the preparation that I had done. And that made a huge difference. And then the amount that he wanted to talk about and come out with us and, you know, all those things. And I totally respect that. You know, I think that makes a ton of sense that it's like, he doesn't want to just, you know, it's that it's fun if you just get spoon fed, all that stuff, half the fun is putting in the work. I agree. I think we, we think on a same, on the same wavelength in that regard, because, you know, I, I just can't imagine like going on a tour and having somebody like, here is this and here's this.

And now we're everybody getting the bus. We're going here. You know, it's just I don't know. I guess I'm too selfish with my time. I want to do it my way or something. That's another. Yeah, that's another fight future. I'll stake it out here now.

So we have to do it. But that'll be a future fight club topic is sort of the notion of notion of these, the, the grand tours or these big groups versus, uh, more so the way that, uh, we, we tend to do these things, you know, in terms of, I just, honestly, I get that there are some places where the feasibility is really hard. If you're not kind of the logistics, right. Like a Texas situation. I can't imagine going on. Yeah. Yeah. I can't imagine going on. Yeah. Yeah. I can't imagine. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I guess I'm one of these like, oh, I'm a group of 20 people, you know, and then it's like, well, did you even see, you know, any notions around, well, were you the person who saw it and that extra joy that

comes to you? If, if you're totally divorced from the process of even figuring out where you're going, you're just along for the ride. For me personally, it wouldn't bring me any joy. Yeah. Now that said, I mean, I was looking, Oh, well we can save it for the debate. So I'll save that. I'll put that in my pocket for when we do that fight. Yeah. Maybe that can be the next one. Take that forward. Yep. Yep. I agree. But yeah, regardless that's, I, I think, uh, and, and I think this last trip kind of sealed it. I mean, I did have fun going out with some of the locals and having them show me around, you know, it was really a nice time, but in, in Australia and kind of the Sydney area, but, um, there was something about getting in your rental car and just driving

and trying to find, you know, the stuff that you researched and tried to look at finding. So and then when you find one or two or three of your targets, that's a that's a great feeling. All right. Well, we ready to fight? Yes, we are. Okay, let's do this thing. So today we're going to be kind of talking about the pros and cons, the ethics of field collection. And I think we've probably all been there, all collected something in the past.

So, you know, I'm just curious to hear your thoughts on, on this topic. And I thought, you know, Dustin, he's a great field herper. He probably has an opportunity to, to collect a lot of stuff if he, if he wanted to, I know he's got a, uh, you know, the collection permit to make everything legal and all that good stuff. So, but you know, I'm sure he doesn't collect everything he finds or he'd be overrun with, uh, animals in his home. So, but, uh, yeah, I thought, uh, Dustin would be a good one for the, for this fight. And, uh, um, Rob has volunteered to, uh, um, moderate this one. So we'll, I'm sure we'll have some good insight from him on both sides. So, um, but, so we'll go ahead and between Dustin and I will flip the coin to see who, who takes what side either, you know, yay. but so we'll go ahead and between Dustin and I will flip the coin to see who,

who takes what side either, you know, yay. I think we should all field collect or nay, probably a bad idea or something. So, okay. Go ahead and call it. It is tails. Yeah. Um, I'm going to take the, the, uh, uh nay you shouldn't really field collect so um i'll take that that side of it and um i'll let you uh give give us a start i'm gonna pull a chuck on you and let you start it out all right um well as we are all uh or I guess pretty much everyone listening to this podcast is a keeper of reptiles. All of those had to have come from wild-caught animals. We don't just automatically have these animals in captivity. So, I mean, look where we're at now, some of the crazy animals that we have.

I will say that I don't think you should collect everything that you find. I do have some, some animals that I collected. Maybe 1% of what I've seen in the wild, you know, nothing crazy. Yeah. And personally, I don't collect to resell or anything like that. I'm not, uh, not looking to make make a dollar just an animal that i really enjoy and usually in a situation where it's beneficial for the animal yeah i think i think that's the one thing that really just rubs me the wrong way is kind of that collection just to flip them just to resell them for a quick buck, you know? And, uh, I, I just, I think it was, it was made very apparent on that trip to Texas,

uh, back when was that several years ago, a few years ago, 2019, 2020, somewhere around there. Um, yeah, June of 20. Yeah. Yep. And, uh, we, we were, we were, there was some other group out there. They were about, you know, there were a couple carloads of people and we kept running into them. And they just were leaving a spot and we were just getting there and we were looking for copperheads and rock rattlesnakes.

And they had collected a copperhead and a rock rattlesnake. And they were basically on a collection trip. I think we probably interrupted some of those collection of some animals because we were At the previous spot. Yeah. We were in a state park. Because we weren't supposed to collect. Exactly.

That's where that lepidus, I'm so confident. We had a weird interaction with them. They left us with an animal and then they let us pass them and they were behaving super strangely. And the lepidus that they had looked a lot like what is there and not no records from the place then that they suppose they pretended to have found it. So I'm pretty sure we could have seen that too, which would have saved me another West Texas venture in terms of the crudeless species list. But no, it had to go in the bucket because it was – had to be resold for $75 to be not properly cared for. A little salty. resold for $75 to be, you know, not properly cared for. Yeah. And the thing that, the thing that killed me too, was them talking about the copperhead. They're like, you know, it's, you

know, it's, it's technically a different one, but it looks exactly like the ones we collect. And, you know, I collected like 20 of them last week from this property near my house or whatever. And I'm just like, if, if you're going to collect 20 that look exactly the same, what do you need to take one out of the wild from here? You know, that that's just really bugs me. And then it took away our opportunity to see that animal because we were 10 minutes too late, you know, to the spot. So we didn't get a, didn't get to see it. So, uh, and it was just like, right crawling basically through the parking lot. Somebody was just hanging out in the parking lot and, and spotted it kind of on the verge next to the parking lot.

So it would have been a pretty easy find, you know, just parking the car and walking through there. You might've stumbled on it. So, um, anyway, yeah. So that, that's, uh, one of the big reasons that I'm, I'm kind of a little of a little against field collection, especially if it's just to flip the animal and just to make a buck. Now, I agree, you know, we we definitely have the animals in captivity that we have and they take out of the wild for probably a good couple decades because um they've been captive bred and uh you know from those original founder animals so i don't know that's uh my biggest uh sticking point with wild collection is flipping animals and just selling them quick for for a buck yeah um another good point would be uh adding new bloodlines into our already existing animals um bringing in some wild caught fresh blood can help uh help from bottlenecking our

populations making things a little bit healthier yeah i i hear that you know i I agree. I think it is important. But I think the bottlenecking and inbreeding issues, at least for most of the stuff we keep in captivity, we U.S. as kind of an indicator that that's probably, you know, where we've bred the same bloodlines for however many years they've been in the country. And we haven't seen too many huge issues. Although, you know, if there is a negative gene in there, it's going to pop up and you're going to lose that population pretty quick. But for the most part, you know, it seems to take at least many generations before you're going to see those effects. And with people's attention spans these days, who's taken their stuff out five or six generations, you know, especially with something that can live 30 years, you know, you can produce from that same pair for 20 so years. So, um, I think, uh, uh you know while there is a benefit of of banning your bloodlines um you know we could probably get by with with not taking too

terribly many out of the wild but there is still a need yeah and to your point, Dustin, I we're talking about a negligible effect versus exactly, Dr. J., the scenario you described in Texas, right, where it was just anything that could go into a deli cup was going into a cup. Those are really two different things. So I think fundamentally that's probably more what this debate is about because I know for the most part all of us kind of, to the extent that it's sort of personal use, are probably amenable to that to some extent, you know, at least in particular circumstances. But, you know, the thing that I just toss this in there, right, as a third party

on this would be to say, my biggest concern with animals that I encounter and have a great experience with in the wild is the fear that at some point, eventually, based on life circumstances and whatever, that that animal that I had a great experience with in the wild, right, that's necessarily temporary and fleeting. If I collect it and bring it home, I'm really running the risk that at some point that animal will become a burden based on my circumstance. And it's really, to me, a big concern will be that it'll lose, I'll ultimately cost myself that fleeting moment with the eventuality of it becoming a burden. Yeah, that's definitely a risk, I think. Yeah. And I mean, once you've brought it into captivity,

it's right. Yeah. Once you brought it in captivity, it's not a great idea to release it back into the wild because it could efforts to make sure they're clean or they're very young animals or things like that. So, yeah. I don't know. That's a tricky subject. I think a lot of us have in our minds, and myself included, that it nice to, to give back. And that's kind of what I did with those California King snakes. And, um, but you know, there is a chance that, that, that could have a negative impact if, you know, things went wrong. And so, um, most, I guess, considering, you know, juvenile animals in the wild, um, have a very good chance of being picked off by a predator, especially if they're dropped into some area that they've never been before, you know, from the safety of a nice cushy cage.

And then they're put back into the wild. That but, you know, I guess they all have that chance when they're when they hatch out in the wild as well, and that's probably why you don't see a lot of juvenile animals in the wild. And they're pretty good at hiding out and avoiding those predators. Yeah. I don't know. What other – Or even being hit by a car, right? Yeah, exactly. That's part of the notion of taking one or a pair that probably makes it fine is that it's – particularly if you road cruised it, it's like, well, all I've done is sort of move the timeline, right?

Or move the eventuality. I guess you've cost a meal for a scavenger, right, that would pick it off, and that's about it. Yeah. Well, and a lot of the scavengers down there are kind of out of proportion to what they probably should be or that they're invasive, like the ravens down in southwestern Utah, where they just sit along. I mean, you can find rows of baby tortoise shells from the ravens that pick them up and eat them and drop the shells. You know, um, it's pretty, pretty tragic. They're actually trying to control those cleanup crews cause they have, they're, they're taking too much of the, the resource, you know, and they're artificially, uh, supported from humans, uh, down in the area. So it makes it a little, little tricky that way, I guess, too. Yeah, I, I agree with you, um, in, in regards to the roadkill stuff.

And, and frankly, you know, I think there are some populations that could withstand some collection and, and not, not be affected too negatively. I, I think about shinglebacks, you know, where you've got 40 within a, in a, uh, uh, one week trip basically. Um, and you know, in one stretch of road in Western Australia, I counted about that many, uh, dead on the road, carcasses of shingle backs. Now they probably stick around for quite a while, you know, they're, they don't, uh, degrade very quickly and they probably have parts that will stick around for a decade or so. But, you know, that's a lot of dead animals in a short span, you know, like a what a half mile mile area. So if they can take that much roadkill and we can still find four or five pairs, you know, in the, in the immediate vicinity,

um, they're probably doing okay. Uh, you know, and they could probably withstand a collection of a pair or two, but of course we didn't do that because it's illegal, but I'm just thinking, you know, and, and over there, you know, they're a very low dollar animal, but over here, that high demand and high dollar drives that illegal wildlife trade so you know the the they say we're trying to stop this but then you know kind of keeping the demand high and the and the supply low they're they're kind of promoting that in some ways i think especially if they could release captive bred animals. Definitely.

That's a whole other topic, right? To your point, Dustin, too, I do think, as you hit on that, to some extent, right, this is just a situation of us externalizing our costs upon people elsewhere in the world where there are a ton of wild-caught reptiles, but it's sort of treated as one thing if it's collected in Indonesia as opposed to, you know, you collecting it yourself in Arizona, you, Justin, in Utah, you know, that sort of thing where it's like it might be permissible. But it sort of feels different to go to either, you know, at a show or, you know, dealing with an importer or whomever and saying, oh, well, this is I feel totally fine about this. But in a way that you would not feel totally fine about this but in a way that you would not feel totally fine about if it involved you actually finding and then picking it up that sort of thing i do think there's something to that where we're sort of creating an artificial

distinction between those two things that doesn't actually exist yeah i think putting a dollar sign on an animal can also be sort of beneficial for them um i mean in indonesia it's uh it creates purpose for these animals i guess other than just killing this snake you know i can catch it and sell it or i can catch it and export it to uh to america where these things are sought after or at least these things can uh or even promoting conservation ethic. Right. In that same way of saying, like, I don't want to rip down the forest if I can get a sustainable use by a small take. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's another tricky matter. You know, if turning I guess turning animals into commodities usually works out poorly for the animals because either they,

you know, they're sold into, you know, pretty poor conditions. The collection methods are pretty, um, primitive or, or damaging to the animals, you know, they're noosing them and ripping them out of trees and stuff. So, you know, they see them as a commodity rather than, than, uh, an important part of, of nature. And so they're not really gentle in their collection techniques. So, you know, the animals often don't live very long, especially some of these wild caught stuff from Indonesia that may be heavily parasitized or collected improperly or stored improperly before they're shipped out. And so, you know, that, that results in, I don't know, it's, it's a pretty bleak situation. Rob would probably know best where he's worked for some of these

importers or been closely associated with some for, for a number of years. But, uh, I don't know, I guess from the outside looking in, it seems like just like a steady rolling death march, you know, for a lot of these animals, it's pretty tragic. So I think, you know, promoting that and being involved in the, you know, you see those sketchy dealers out there and they're still in business and you're like, why are they still in business? Why don't we take a stand? Well, because they imported some rare reptile that some somebody has to have so they're going to look the other way at how sketchy this guy is and buy it from him anyway you know we're we're promoting this uh nonsense to to persist well that's why we got a

but with their dollar unfortunately i think the price point drives that. Yeah. Like what the value of that thing is. You know, if you're talking about wild tokay geckos, the sort of conditions before importation and the conditions of importation left so now, I think it's improved dramatically from, you know, certainly over the last half century in terms of survivability and intentionality in terms of sending them safely but there's no disputing that there's a pragmatism a um you know cynical pragmatism to the care that goes into something based on the price point sorry dustin i didn't mean to cut you no you're good yeah that's what i'm saying we just need to vote with our dollar and you know dan millery is an example of a great importer who brings in you know hand-picked animals and top-quality animals that are in good conditions over there once they come over here. Yeah. Yeah, unfortunately for every Dan Mallory, there's two or three of the others.

Well, maybe that's an exaggeration. Hopefully, that's an exaggeration. Hopefully, there's more good ones out there than, than sketchy ones, but I don't know. It's hard to, hard to maintain a positive outlook when, you know, you see some of these tables with just poor quality, you know, animals that are just going to die as soon as they, they make it out the door, you know, that kind of thing. And where they, they have no regard for the health of the animal. Now, you know, I'm, I'm probably being a little dramatic and there's probably one of those that maybe, you know, a big show or something, but, uh, you know, unfortunately the, the

why our, our whole, you know, her, not necessarily herptic culture, but like the pet industry is pretty tied to wildcats and cheap imports. So they can, you know, appease the soccer mom whose kids whining for some lizard. She can buy it. It will live a week and then she can not have that responsibility anymore. You know, it's almost like a win-win for, for the, uh, the death trade, I guess, looking at the bleakest aspect of it. But that's hard to stomach sometimes. Yeah, it makes it a little hard to fight for this side. I mean, that's probably the strongest argument. Yeah, I mean, I think a key factor too, right, kind of as to both sides is saying if you're talking about collecting and trading things that are either dietary or conditional specialists that are 95 out of 100 are not going to be set up or not going to be sent to a situation where they'll be able to thrive based on either their dietary needs or the conditions that they require relative to the average pet situation that's a whole different

deal than saying a singular pair of it i think dustin will forever be salty with me based on our perception of uh of you and our hosts and things when you find a pair of meeting pyros uh doesn't get more locale specific than that so i think he's always i think they'll always kind of stick with them a little bit yeah but there's also a good feeling you know knowing that they're there they're supporting the next generation yeah and you might be able to go back and find some yeah yeah yeah that's it yeah that's you know where they are for sure and they they, you didn't, you know, they weren't in the middle of the road,

so there wasn't risk of them getting run over. They were well, you know, well within their habitat. And so, yeah, I, I think that was a good move.

I would have struggled to, I admit it like that would have been a hard, hard thing to pass up, but, uh, you know, I don't need more, more,

uh, animals to care for. That's for sure. But, um, yeah, that's, I, I do like the idea of that. you know, I don't need more animals to care for, that's for sure. But, yeah, I do like the idea of that. You know, I think that's probably a strong argument on your side is, you know, that locality knowledge is kind of a fun part of herpetoculture. Yeah. Being able to propagate a known locality is cool. You get a little keepsake from a greatulture. Yeah. Being able to propagate a known locality is cool. You get a, you know,

you get a little keepsake from a great memory. Yeah. Yeah. It reminds you of, you know, kind of that, that memory in, in a lot of ways, but, you know, again, I think, you know, that responsibility to be able to let something go is, is can be very rewarding, you know, to, to not collect is, is, uh, can be very rewarding, you know, to, to not collect is, is almost as rewarding as collecting sometimes. And then, uh, I mean, uh, you know, there's, there are definitely times where it's probably just fine to collect and I, and I don't have, you know, any issue with, uh, proper well thought out and, and kind of targeted collection. I guess another downside in my mind is kind of the ignorant collection or, you know, I, I, uh, several years ago, um,

somebody called me cause I'm, you know, the reptile guy in the neighborhood or whatever. And they said, Hey, we collected these cool lizards, but they're not doing great. Can you take them, you know, and see if you can do better with them? And it was a pair of desert horn lizards, you know, that are not going to thrive in captivity and it's going to be very difficult. And, you know, I took them. I didn't know where they collected them or I wasn't able to get them back out before it got cold.

And so, you know, and I had a source of ants and I was actually trying to, um, try my hand and try to keep some, um, some of the Hernandez side, the, the short horned mountain horned lizards. And, uh, they were doing pretty well and eating well, a couple of the females had babies. So, you know, it was, it was kind of a fun, fun little project. Um, but, uh, in, in the end I, I messed up on their hibernation and didn't, didn't do very well during that time and ended up losing, uh, those animals. So, you know, and in the end, my, my failed experiment resulted in, you know, the loss of a couple lizards lives so you want to be able to I mean obviously we can't win them all I guess you could say

but as long as you're going into it with forethought and planning and not just saying oh those are cool I'm going to take them home I think I'm okay with, with collection, but if you're just going to say, oh, I like that lizard, I'm grabbing it and taking it to my house. You know, I think you probably want to rethink that and not, not do that. And, and how do we educate the public, you know, to not just grab and take it just because they like it. Now that said, when I was a kid, I would do that all the time. Please dad, let me take it home. And, and I had really great parents that said, yeah, go for it. Take, bring that rattlesnake home and, you know, and, and that kind of thing.

And I, I had no, um, I didn't even realize that people made laws that said you couldn't keep a snake at your house, you know, that you found in the desert. So, you know, it was just the ignorance of youth, I guess. Um, my, my dad, uh, probably was too nice, you know, in some, some instances, but, uh, and you know, he, he probably had maybe an inkling that some of them weren't, uh, technically legal or whatever. I do remember him asking like a ranger when we were on a state park, if we could take one home and the ranger said no. So he told me I couldn't bring it home. And it was a really nice look. I'm pretty sure it was a con color. It was really beautiful, like faded pink, but, um,

I got, I got another one down the road. So like, uh, off the, off the state park at a different place, but as a juvenile and it did great. I had that thing for probably, uh, uh, five to 10 years and ended up giving it away when I realized it was illegal. So, but yeah, so I, you know, I, I don't have a problem with it as long as there's thought and planning involved. Yeah. It's kind of my thoughts. Exactly. You need to be responsible for what you're doing. Yeah. Well, any other, uh, cool insights in the field collecting or great, great aspects of it, or have we covered, uh, what you had in mind?

Yeah. I think maybe just, uh, uh you know for the most part don't do it yeah but it's a little hypocritical i think yeah i think i think the first uh first step is to look for captive bred animals like you can usually find most of the stuff that's available in the wild now i will admit that the the morph craze has kind of ruined a little bit of that. And, and usually localities go away when there's a morph produced because they just want to produce more of that morph. And so I'll, you know, I'm not, I'm not saying everybody does that, but that seems to be a common problem sometimes is finding those locality or even, you know, species pure animals if there's a morph involved. So it is nice to, I do have that. I've been promoting, you know, having a project that

doesn't make you any money. That's just a cool animal that you can appreciate, not because it brings you hundreds of dollars, but because it's a cool animal in its own right. And you take the price tag away and even give those away to, you know, friends or family or, you know, other people who are interested. So then they're not collecting from the wild or, or promoting that. So. I think the biggest thing is don't do it because you think it's going to be cheaper because a, that might not be true and b you're certainly not uh sort of acknowledging both the actual costs that you're probably going to face in terms of challenges with acclimatizing that animal and b your x the externalized cost on

the environment right so if you're doing it exactly as you both have said with the intentionality and that intentionality not reflecting hey i don't have to go pay someone money associated with this purchase. As long as that's not the motivation or much worse, as you as you laid out, Dustin, that like, oh, I'm going to collect it and sell it or whatever, which is the double I'm paying for. I'm not paying anything and then trying to get money from it. Then yeah, I think we're all kind of on board with that. Yeah. Conscious use.

Yeah. Cool. Well, and you know, I, it may be, we should have got somebody that had kind of an opposite view. Cause I remember going on a,

on a trip to Australia with Rob Roy McGinnis who worked for Glades Herb and was one of the owners, I guess, of that import business back in the day. And man, that guy could find just about anything. Like he was a top-notch herper, but always in the back of his mind, like, I wonder how much I could get for this. You know, it was like everything had a price and everything, you know, and I was worried he was going to bring stuff home from Australia or get caught, you know, something in his bag. And then we'd be labeled some, you know, collection trip or something. And we were like, no, nobody else in the group had any desire to try to take anything home or, you know, think about the, how much we could get for it or something. But that was always in the forefront.

You were happy at a different place, right? Yeah, exactly. But man, you could find stuff like we'd be going 70 miles down the road and he'd spot a frilled lizard on a tree that was 20 feet off the road, you know, frilled lizard. And we'd stop and run, you know, a quarter of a mile to where he saw this frilled lizard hanging out on the side of a tree. It was pretty, pretty amazing. And like, we'd stop to for a pit stop or something. And he'd run out into the bush and come back with a couple of geckos or something. Look what I found, you know? So he was really good at finding stuff, but yeah. And I'm sure,

the other big caveat, sorry, go ahead. Oh, I'm sure he, you know, the other big caveat. Sorry, go ahead. Oh, I'm sure, you know, he had a genuine love for the animals. Like he really cared about the reptiles and he was really interested in them. But, you know, there was always that caveat of, ooh, I bet I could get a bit of money for this. Right. I think the other big caveat is at least within sort of this whole conversation, I think we've been assuming we're talking about things that are within their native range. If we're talking about something, you know, so when you were talking about Rob Roy, that reminded me of, hey, what are we saying to Ron right here? And, you know, the answer is that if we're talking about an invasive species to be sold into the pet trade so that a teenager can support themselves by collecting Cuban nightingale, that sounds all good to me, man. You know, that's no worries at all.

Yeah, and the laws that say you can't collect like a Burmese python out of the Everglades or something seems just ridiculous to me, you know. It's a little backwards. Right. You can kill it, but you can't. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. Yeah.

And, you know, I guess that could potentially lead to people, you know, releasing veiled chameleons on their property so they can collect them and sell them to the pet trade, you know, down the road, which is probably not the... Or another people's property is more of a herd style. Yeah. But, you know, I guess I can't say that I haven't been tempted to release some monitors down in the southwest to see if that would be terrible. Okay. Yeah, I would never do that, just for the record. How cool would that be to have a spot where you have Perentes running around out in the wild in the U.S. that you could go check them out. But anyway, I guess that's the point.

They belong where they belong. And if they're invasive, then yeah, go for it. Collect them. Get them out of the environment as long as you're not releasing them so you can collect them, I guess, is the point there. Right. That is an added complication for sure. Yeah.

But that is – I mean mean that's a great point i mean uh yeah ron definitely was doing the right thing removing those invasive species out of the wild and if he could support you know his his reptile habit all the more power to him all right any other uh cool uh thoughts in the back of your mind there, Rob? No, I think I'm pretty good. I just feel bad that I think I've kind of stepped on you both and throughout this thing. But we'll get better as it goes. And all thoughts to Chuck, you know, and, you know, just keeping the seat warm. So whenever he's good to go, it'll be good. good but in the meantime we'll try and have some fun here yeah for sure yeah no you did great and you had brought up some really good points so thanks for uh for doing this and being here and yeah this is great i know uh dustin's got

a got to work he's got to go to work in the middle of the night so we won't keep him too much longer so he can get some rest or finish cleaning his reptile cages there. But it was good to have you on and good to chat with you again, man. Yeah, it was good to talk to you guys. Yeah, always good. So looking forward to herping with you in the near future as soon as things warm up. All right. Any cool things you've seen out there in regards to herpetoculture? Any exciting finds in the world of reptiles?

That's off the top of my head. That Matt teaching stuff is cool. Yeah, all his trip, man. I think we're going to have to try and have him on here to less so to fight, you know, less about fighting, more about hearing all that stuff because, man, super jealous. Well, the fight is how jealous we are of what is true, you know. That's the fight. Well, it could be another revisit of the Justin method versus the Rob method of covering. And I'll be ready for that fight, too. There you go. Thousands of miles versus, you know versus a couple hundred miles or something.

So, yeah. And he did a big drive. He went from Northern Territory all the way to Central Australia. Kind of both, though, right? So, to me, that was a combo because it's like the solid stay in two different spots with the big venture in between. So, maybe that would be a good topic if we can get him to go for it. Yeah. the solid stay in two different spots with the big venture in between. So maybe that's, maybe that would be a good topic if we can get them to go for it.

So, yeah. And I'm looking forward to the stuff Luke will be releasing soon too, from his trip to South Australia. They found some cool stuff. He had some, I mean, he's already posted a few little snippets, I think pictures of the Gillens and did he post some videos of that? I'm not sure if it was just just hanging out like the actual video. Yeah. Yeah. Um, that Gillens was just like hanging on the side of the tree and they're like taking pictures and videos and it's just like hanging out. And that, that was my experience too. The first, uh, lizard I found when we, well, I guess it was the second technically, but we were driving from the airport in Alice Springs into the town. And there was a Gillens hanging out on a fence post. And I

walked over and like, I thought it was going to bolt at any second. So I'm taking pictures, taking a step, taking a picture, taking a step. And I just, I got right next to the animal. I reached over and picked it up and just sat there, like, let me pick it up. Wasn't trying to bite or anything. And I'm like checking it out and put it back on the fence post. And, and then it took off after I put it back, but it was, that was a killer looking animal. It was so beautiful, but yeah, there was just bold. Same, same thing with, uh, a lot of the Eastern collared lizards too. Like you can just walk right up to them and pick them up.

And once you get them in hand, they're all like trying to bite you and freaking out. But before you, before you get them in hand, they just kind of let you approach. Yeah. Especially those males, they'll stand their ground. It's pretty cool. All right. Well, get some sleep and we'll we'll have you back again sometime soon. So, uh,

thanks for being here and thanks to Rob and, we'll catch you again next week for another reptile fight club. Oh man, there's some empty space for a, uh, Chuck quip there. We'll just, we'll just have a moment of silence.

See you later. See ya. Thank you. Outro Music Bye.