Reptile Fight Club - The Recap Episode.

Episode Date: July 23, 2021

In this episode, Justin and Chuck review topics from the past 10 podcasts. What were the takeaways and have our opinions changed? Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland @-FBIG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to thetile Fight Club. My name's Justin. I'm Chuck. We are your hosts. And today we had an idea. So we've done 10 episodes and we thought maybe today we'd talk about kind of the things we shows and, you know, we we've also in, uh, gotten a lot of feedback from the listeners and we really appreciate that. And thank you guys for listening and thanks for contributing and being involved in the discussion. And we've got some more people lined up to, to fight. And so, um, hopefully we'll get, get more, uh, in that pool as well. If you're interested in debating a topic with somebody, let us know.

So first off, I thought, you know, let's talk about what this show is trying to accomplish, right? Because we've gotten some feedback about, you know, we're not really generating fights. So, you know, do we change the name to, what was your suggestion? Mild Disagreement Club? Yeah. I think that's a less appealing name. So I guess the purpose of this is not necessarily to get people up in arms and fighting and yelling and screaming matches. Those usually are not very productive.

What we want to do is cover two sides of an issue and so you know that's tricky in some ways like there you know the UV debate or the UV discussion that we had between Ryan McVeigh and and Zach Loeffman Zach Loeffman my brain not working anyway yeah so like we want to have some flights so mine's not either we want to have them debate or discuss both sides of the issue. Because, yeah, obviously, it's probably a good idea to use UV with a lot of reptiles that we keep. But, you know, there's arguments against it and there's technology. So we'll get into that when we talk about that one. But I mean, I think that, yeah.

Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, no. Yeah, the purpose of this is not necessarily to have people on that are diametrically opposed to yell at each other and actually fight. It's to discuss a topic, to present both sides of an issue, because nothing's simple. Nothing's just black and white.

You do this, you don't do this, right? There's a lot of gray areas, especially with reptiles. And we're ever increasing our knowledge. We're developing new products. And sometimes, you know, those products may not be the best products, right? You know, just because it's innovative or new doesn't mean it's always great. I'm sure at the time, hot rocks were probably heralded as the next big thing, you know, in herbiculture. And now we look back at them pretty,

pretty, uh, aghast, but also, you know, maybe there's a purpose for them and maybe a different method of making a hot rock wouldn't be a bad idea. So, you know, there's lots of, lots of things to consider. It's never just a, yes, hot rocks are bad. You know, there, there might be a way that we could use that. And I've heard of people using those things. They'll run heat cable through. I mean, heat cable is basically a hot rock, right? Same thing. Hot rock's just a heat cable with a giant heat sink on it.

Exactly. And I think in an appropriate environment, hot rock might not be the worst thing in the world to use as long as you're covering some other bases bases so we're we're generating discussion um but the reptile discussion generator podcast was not as catchy a name and so we went with the reptile fight well and i mean come on man you remember back in in the old mp days where i mean guys used to get into it and there were guys who legitimately hated each other at that time and you know as interesting as that is to you know kind of like holy crap it's going off today these guys are oh man it's just straight name like you know there's a drama around it

right and I get that people like that drama and I get that that sparks an interest but at the same time like you know if we went on there and just did that that sparks an interest, but at the same time, like, you know, if we went on there and just did that and, you know, promoted a name calling mud slinging, dragging people down one, no one would want to come on this show. Cause it would be risky for them if they ran a reptile business or had a, or we're trying to make a name or had a name for themselves. Um, so, you know, you have to be able to employ some tact and professionalism when you're, you know, hopefully when you're doing anything out to the public. And, you know, I think our message is one of education and, you know, something of thought

provoking. And so getting down in the weeds with how we do our show may not really be very lockstep with that message that we're trying to portray. So I get people's frustration. Everybody wants a good, you know, fisticuffs. But I just think that, you know, we do it where we can. And, you know, I have no problem saying things that, you know, might not be considered nice, but I'm just not going to say them in a not-not-nice way. Right? You have to listen subtly for the points that are made here and take away your own conclusions.

We're helping people draw their own conclusions based on back-and-forth conversation here. And if it doesn't sound right, somebody says something that doesn't sound right or whatever, and maybe we touch on that, but we don't like jump on top of them for that. Well, there's a reason why we didn't, but it's not because we don't recognize that maybe they're full of shit or whatever. Yeah. Yep. So, um, I guess I, I do remember those days when people would be throwing, you know, yelling and screaming and calling names and it just wasn't productive. You know, nothing came of that. Nobody changes their mind or considers the other side because it's a cult of personality more so than a discussion and sharing of ideas. Well, and that's what it felt like it felt like a

power struggle right yep you kind of sided with the guy that you thought had a better argument or that was that had nicer animals that you wanted and so you aligned with your idea i don't know you know there's lots of reasons for people jumping on board and you know um there was some discussion of that in one of the episodes i think it was the NPR, I think Eric brought it up, where people want beef. People like that and like the drama. But I think that's kind of the lowest common denominator. I don't want to have this show be about beefs and be about personal vendettas against other

individuals. So we want to keep this professional we want to keep it uh educational we want to keep that well and i mean hey man hopefully hopefully if you do have a beef with somebody like a beef and you want to come work it out here cool cool come on come on over come on in but i'm not gonna sit here and try to push it over the edge to make it you know some something crazier i'd like to it, you know, some, something crazier. I'd like to bring some, you know, some, some resolution out of it. So, you know, if, if all we're doing is, you know, just inciting people to name call and yell and whatever, I mean,

in the end, I don't, I don't see, I don't see where that takes us. And, and I feel like we need to have a way forward, um, in the forward in the industry, in the podcast, whatever. So, you know, I just maybe that was the young me that liked that drama. And I still, you know, I enjoy a good argument. And I want to make sure that, you know, it does. It drives me crazy when people say some bullshit. And it's like, man, nobody calls them out for that like nobody like stops and is like really can you can you substantiate that claim you're making there

all day no okay cool thanks man you know yeah i was listening to carpets and coffee and those guys kind of uh went over some of those topics you know and and eric mentioned that he kind of questioned one of their you know interviewees that you know then and he kind of questioned one of their interviewees and kind of pushed them for a little more information on some of the claims they were making. And as a scientist, I'm always skeptical when somebody makes bold or absolute claims. That's kind of like a warning sign to me. If they have everything figured out and they know all there is to know about it, you're like, well, do you really? You know, or do you know just enough to be dangerous? Because people with a little bit of knowledge and not the best intentions can make a lot of bad, negative inroads. You know, they can convince people that they know exactly what they're talking about. And,

um, you know, and, and a lot of times that's people just trying to sell you something. So, you know, be careful of what you, what you believe. Well, there's a lot of smart people out there who can take a little bit of knowledge and lay it out in a certain way that, that looks good. And what they don't do is lay it out in a way where it's like, here's everything. Here's my rationed argument across the table. Here's all the research. Here's all this. I found this, this, this. Look for yourself. Go ahead and look for yourself. While there are two sides to every coin, I mean, there's some issues. As a virologist, I hear a lot about the COVID situation and the vaccine and things like that.

And I hear these so-called experts or doctors getting on and talking. And they sound like they know what they're talking about to somebody who's not in the field. But if you're in that field, you look at their arguments and you're like, oh, there's holes all through that, man. You're coming at me with a sieve. It's ridiculous ridiculous some of the things but then people eat it up because oh i'm a doctor you know you should trust me you know it's like well what are you a doctor of and they're like an ear nose and throat doctor what you know it's like you have no basis in virology you and you're the ideas you're promoting don't don't

hold up in immunology or any other, you know, it's just ridiculous. Well, I mean. But it's hard because they're the experts. They're the doctors. You should trust your doctor, that kind of thing. But in that regard, no. You know, maybe they're a great ear, nose, and throat doctor, but they're not a virologist and they're not an immunologist. And so their concepts are flawed in a lot of ways.

Yeah. And it's especially scary when they're trying to promote something that keeps people from being vaccinated. Because right now, I mean, that's the best thing we got. Is there risk to vaccination? Sure. Is there risk to getting in a car? Of course. But we do the things we need to do. There's a lot of diseases that we are not aware of or even care about anymore because they've been eliminated through vaccination. Now, some of those are making inroads back because people aren't getting vaccinated. And I guess we shouldn't get me started on the whole vaccine thing because

I'm a firm believer that vaccination is the way forward to get rid of some of these deals. And maybe you're a Darwinist who believes that believes that yeah let's just let these things run their course and bump off a few people and that's fine but you know i i don't have i mean attitude about it so like you know let's protect statistically statistically speaking if you don't believe in vaccines it seems like right now that's working itself out you know yeah right i mean to some extent i mean 99 of the people who are dying or have not been vaccinated yeah anyway this is not the vaccine show this is not no this is not virology fight club let's uh move on with some reptile topics but um you know just just a an uh a kind

of an an example of people buying into things based on an expert, a so-called expert who is giving completely wrong information. How do we know truth from fiction? And it takes a little bit of background work. And I think people like to hold people to their previous views, right? Like if you believe something back in the early 2000s and you kind of learn more and change your attitude about it or, you know, you changed your position,

people are going to call you a flip-flopper or whatever, but that's how this goes, right? We don't have to be held to the belief that first popped into our head. We can continue to learn and grow and develop. But I will say this, that there are those people who espouse certain views that I know from back in the day, and they've changed some of those opinions, but they never go back and are like, yeah, I might've not been right about that. Or, you know, it was just kind of like, they just kind of gloss over it and that's kind of like

hey I will never hold anything against you as long as you own it as long as you're like yeah I thought that back in the day I don't know why I clearly I just I was wrong or you know I've changed my opinion or

I've come across new things have come to light, man. That's true. But the whole, I had this stance as my tact towards maybe selling animals, or whatever I was using to promote my shtup then, and then now it's something different, but you make no apology for it, and it's completely against what you were saying back in the day.

It's kind of like, that comes off as a little disingenuous. Yeah, for sure. But at the same time, I totally agree with you. Even if you can't own it, I know, and other people know. Most things are documented these days. Yeah. Some record, or maybe less so than back in the day. You could go back to their old thread and say, here's what you said five years ago.

Yeah. And so, I mean's it's still out there whether you want to admit it or not and thankfully you're changing your tune for the better hopefully yeah but you know it is what it is so yeah and we welcome people to change their attitudes and ideas and you know they're hopefully so you know let's let's look into these things so that's what this is for so I guess we came in a little yeah came in it's hard to do that yeah yeah yeah you know got got into the meat of things no no chit chat but

how are things going for you man you look sounds like you had a nice uh i did yeah i had a great trip out to visit my family air travel's really crazy right now. A lot of people are traveling. Very crowded airports, late airplanes. It was crazy getting into Indy. It was crazy getting home. I'm finally home, thank God. Had a wonderful time. Caught an Indianapolis Indians game. So they're a farm league team.

And great game um so just hung out with my family yeah just just a really nice time man but yeah you know like like any nice time it's always good to be home and sleeping in your own bed and um you know I got got stuff to deal with back here animal wise so. So it's like, you know, that worry always is like, I hope everything's going okay. So everything's fine. That's good. That's good. Yeah. I mean, despite the hassles of air travel, it sure beats driving all the way to Indianapolis.

Yeah. For sure. Yeah. So it's nice to be able to fly again. I'm really looking forward to getting to Australia again. Yeah. Can't wait to get back there. for sure. Yeah. So it's nice to be able to fly again. I'm really looking forward to getting to Australia again. Yeah. Can't wait to get back there. For sure.

Hopefully 2023, maybe at the latest, hopefully they're letting people back in. I don't know, with all this Delta variant and places shutting down again, man, it just keeps pushing things back. It's nuts. And there is now a lambda variant oh yeah yeah did you see that i i haven't seen that i i just they had the the the like the the parody off of revenge of the nerds like the lambda lambda oh yeah and so they were like oh it's the lambda variant and uh yeah but uh there there's gonna be to be more, I'm sure, that will come out. And some are more important than others.

It seems like this Delta one is pretty important. And, I mean, it's causing a lot of the disease and mortality right now. So, yeah, be careful out there. Well, it's well over, I think it's 80-something percent of all positive cases now are Delta variant cases. So, it's definitely becoming the dominant strain of COVID-19. Yeah. And with viruses, I mean, that's kind of what it is. It's an arm race against your own immune system.

And so if it can change a little bit and not compromise its own replication, it can come back and cause infections again, even though people have been exposed to it luckily the vaccine seems to work pretty well against the Delta variant as well as the original variants and hopefully future variants that's always the question but again back to reptiles

right? Yeah I was going to say I just checked the incubator and I've got a clutch of western Stimson's pythons hatching out, so that's always nice. Nice. Yeah. I had to make some more hatchling racks because I was running out of room. I didn't even get any carpets or anything. I think I just have too many holdbacks, and I need to get some ads out. I'm trying to train my daughter how to take pictures and get the ads out. Yeah. Sell my snakes for me. We've got a couple of reptile shows coming out. There's a new show coming to, um, Utah. So that's

nice. We'll have a, another, uh, reptile show we can vend at. So when's that at? When are they? Um, it's in August. I'm trying to think of the name of the show. August is a good time frame. Yeah. That's cool. I should have prepared for this, but let me get the name of the reptile show. But, yeah, we're pretty stoked for another show in Utah. So it's Reptile Nation Expo or Reptilian Nation Expo. So they've been doing shows in Colorado and some other states.

So I guess they're, yeah, Reptilian Nation Expo. And it looks like it's shaping up to be a good show. Nice. It should be fun. Yeah. I'm ready to get back to a reptile show. I know. I haven't been. you kind of miss it

right it's like yeah i do well and it's funny because i hear other people being like yeah i don't want to go i don't go back like i'm over it so i don't know i mean i guess all things in their place but uh but yeah i definitely miss walking tables and talking people up and you know yeah yeah it's almost more like less less to buy animals or to sell animals, but more to see the community, you know. Yeah, no. I do enjoy the local shows for that reason. I feel like if I'm going to get an animal, I've already got that lined up.

But most of it's just, you know, hooking up with old friends. Yeah. So the Reptilian Nation expo is in salt lake city and august 28th and 29th at the mountain american expo center so should be fun right yeah you heard it now you heard it here first from the doctor yeah the wasatch reptile show has been going on for years and years and it's it's a good standard you know we we've always supported guy and and that show and it's it's always a good show so we enjoy the local show so hopefully you know we we've always supported guy and and that show and it's it's always a good show so we enjoy the local show so hopefully you know there's you know there should be room for

another show and uh it's it's a few months before the uh wasatch reptile expo so yeah i uh i think people will be happy to attend both i don't know why why they wouldn't, but we'll see, we'll see how it goes, but I'm excited for that. Um, yeah, I got my, my buddy Brody. I sent my ball pythons to him on breeding loan and, and, uh, he produced a bunch of them. So I get to go pick some up, some babies up today. So I'll have some ball pythons or Royal pythons, if you will. And it should be fun to have some baby ball pythons again. You know, I really did enjoy keeping the different morphs and producing a bunch of different color variants and stuff. That is kind of a fun thing, you know, hatching out the eggs and seeing all these crazy color patterns and stuff. I get it, man. I i still i mean i ball pythons was one of those snakes i kind of started

out with and i've i've had and i got i don't anymore when i slimmed down but uh but i still like i mean i don't know man i just i i get that people you know it's not the most interesting it's not the most cutting edge you know not the most cutting edge, you know. If you're not in the front of the ball Python game, you're not in the game, like whatever. I just enjoy them, and I do. I love how those babies, you know, a lot of those morphs come out of the egg just looking slamming, dude. Yeah, yeah. And they're fun.

They're fun. You know, screw anybody with a negative opinion about it. If it's not for you or, you know, like use it, like, you're like, Hey, I got, I want to focus other places. I can find a home for these and work something out. Like, cool, man. Good. Yes.

Awesome. You know, but, but like just that whole, like, you know, uh, by ball pythons or the, the, you know, the ruin of this community. Like, whatever, dude. Yeah. Okay. Maybe we have to have a topic on that, you know. Ball pythons, the ruin of the reptile industry.

We'll have a future episode. But, I mean, obviously they're very popular. And there's a lot of fun stuff. And people, you know, some breeders made a lot of money off of ball pythons. For sure. And, you know, you got your pluses and minuses there, but you know, I enjoyed them for what they were, but yeah, I had other projects I wanted to focus on. I wanted to get those, uh, Western Simpson pythons kind of established and, and out, you know, to as many people as possible. And we've done very well with those. And so, and you know, I'm, I was just

running out of room and running out of time and I wasn't really doing much with them. So I had some, you know, pretty fun, um, morphs and some, some, I think I even had maybe a world's first. It's I, I, as far as I could tell, I don't think anybody else had proven that. Not that that's a big accomplishment these days with so many combinations you can make but yeah um so you know it was it was a super pastel sugar mojave or something like that and it was pretty nice looking animal you know it was pretty fun so um and and brody's you know he's he's a great guy he he he's got some a cool collection pretty diverse collection. And he's had some room and decided to take those on on a breeding loan. And he did very well with them.

Got most of them to produce. Even some that I've had for a long time that never produced for me, he got a clutch out of them. So more power to you, Brody. Thanks for making that work. Teamwork making the dream work, dude. Yeah, right? A lot of times breeding loans don't work out so well. Brody's the real deal.

It's fun. We've been vending some shows together out here, too. It's really fun to vend with him. He's a good guy. Does good work with the animals. Cool. Yeah. So anyway, things are going well

here waiting for some amia eggs to hatch and that's about all that's left in the incubator right now um just trying to get all these babies feeding and like i said last time we got some you know the pygmies and some of the pygmies this year started eating from right off the right off the bat so So that's exciting. And I get more and more feeding. Now, the downside is during this time of year, and especially this hot year, the mice kind of slow down in their production. I still haven't figured out how to do very well during the summer with the mice. I need to get some heavy-duty fans in the mouse shed or something, try to. So they, they keep being productive during the time when I need them to be productive.

Yeah. It's almost, you almost have to either put them in a climate controlled environment or, you know, you're, you're just kind of live with that, that lull in, uh, lull in food production. Yeah, for sure. Luckily the wild mice have slowed down in their production haven't seen any uh wild mice for a while and that's uh what a frustration that's been you know trying to figure that out but it's nice they finally have kicked off or i poisoned them enough

to not see them anymore but yeah so yeah things are going well just gotta sell some animals so if you're looking for some nice anturesia hit me up you know um all right man well anything going on you yeah we need to discuss or we're ready i mean i think i think i think we should dive into it um i've got that simpsons uh song they did a a clip show in one of their episodes, and at the end of the episode, they kept singing, Sorry for the clip show. You know, so we wanted to keep the ball rolling, keep the episodes coming out. And I thought this was a reasonable thing, because there's a lot of things that we missed and probably thought about afterwards. So, well, let's go through them.

Should we just kind of hit them one by one? Yeah. All right. We started off with professional versus hobbyist breeders. I think I was on the side of professional breeders and you were kind of on the hobbyist side. Yeah, I'm still on the hobbyist side. Yeah, me too, actually. Well, and I am a hobbyist side. Yeah. I'm still on the hobbyist side. Me too, actually. Well, and I am a hobbyist,

you know, I kind of forewent, you know, going down that route and becoming a professional breeder because I, you know, some of the things that I saw that were not, now, can you make it work and can you have a great business? Of course you can. And I think there's a lot of people that have, that have proven that, but you know, there's not a huge amount of room, and it is a lot of work, and it does take – I think the big reason that I didn't do it was, one, I didn't want to make my livelihood dependent on selling animals. I didn't want to have to make compromising decisions or things based on that. So, two, it seems like the bigger you get to do a professional business that's viable and that makes you a lot of money, you tend to work with the animals less. And you have to hire people and have them do the actual work with the animals. And, you know, maybe that's okay in some ways.

But that wasn't for me. I wanted to kind of say a small batch breeder. So, that's kind of the the ideas is behind that but yeah i like insights no i like that idea that that as a professional breeder you're you know you're you're more running a business than than you are you know working with your animals in the long run um i mean you can you know they're your animals you can go you know mess with them when you want to or whatever but i'm just you know i think as a hobbyist breeder you you kind of do more of the all of it um yeah and you're not running it like a business and

you're not your livelihood's not dependent on it and so it just it just frees you up to to be a little less you you know, um, decision and business oriented and in your, in, in the things that you do. And, and, uh, I think it, it keeps me more plugged into the animals is why I like it. And, and, uh, I just, I would hate, I would hate to do it and wake up one day and just be like, man, you know, I, uh, I make money off this and i support my family but i'm not really happy with the way this went you know what i mean yeah i don't know that any any

professional breeder is ever going to turn around and be like yeah nah i don't like this and you know it's it's bad but uh certainly i think you know everybody has to have their their time when they look back in retrospect and i think we can think about professional breeders that that you know um i don't want to say have a bad name that or like but that uh how do i want to yeah i mean you can't really slip up when you're working with live yeah yeah exactly you know if you if you mess up and you're mess up or if you have a bad month or something and your collection goes downhill and then that affects your livelihood which affects your

mental state it can be kind of a snowball thing in your reputation. It can be a death blow. This industry, more than any other it seems is pretty, pretty heavily dependent on your reputation. You know, if you have any, you know, and I think that shows with,

with a lot of people's attitude towards keeping the animals, they don't want to say, Oh, you know, I, I had a NIDO positive animal or something because then nobody will buy my animals. And so, you know, they just either don't test or they don't care or they think, ah, it's not a big deal. And maybe there's an argument for that. And maybe we discuss that on a future episode. But there's choices and decisions that go in. And maybe sometimes that stifles our research in some ways or our learning. Or what I hate is when people consider things trade secrets. our research in some ways, you know, or our learning and, and, you know, or, or what,

what I hate is when people consider things trade secrets, you know, they're not going to tell you how to breed an animal because it's going to give away their trade secrets. And, you know, maybe that if I think if your business is that tenuous and you can't, you know, tell somebody how you produced an animal or whatever, then yeah, you're probably not fit for being a professional breeder but yeah anyway that's uh i guess that's not for me to side but that's my attitude on it you know i know it's kind of silly to have that attitude yeah well i i mean you know the success that we all enjoy uh with different animals that were actually really hard to breed, you know, a decade or two ago. Um, it's not because people were like, Oh, I'm keeping this to myself. Wow. Ha ha ha ha. You know? So I, you know,

it's, uh, I've also heard some, some horror stories of, uh, people that work for professional breeders doing things like swapping normals for heads and things like, you know, kind of shady things where then it looks bad on the breeder, you know, because their employee did that. And then people are thinking that the, this company is, you know, out of whack and, and, and, and maybe that's just, maybe that's just employees that screw it up and, you know,

are moving too many animals around and they lose track of what's what and the wrong thing ends up in the wrong tub. And, you know, I're moving too many animals around, and they lose track of what's what, and the wrong thing ends up in the wrong tub. And, you know, I mean, I don't necessarily think that always happens maliciously, but you sure did hear about it, didn't you? Yeah. And I'm sure it's still out there. But, yeah, I mean, it's a tough gig. It's a lot of working parts, I think, to a professional breeder's operation that lends itself to problems that really can sink your name. Yep, yep, that's kind of our blacklisting versus forgiveness episode where we talked about some of these guys persist despite their repeated abuse of their customers.

Sending out poor animals or half-dead animals or not having a good business practice. And it's amazing how some of these people survive, but, you know, I think if you're, if you've got a passion and you really, I mean, that's the only thing you want to do is work with animals. I think being a professional breeder is a reasonable option. You know, it gives you the freedom to work with the animals that you want to work with to some extent. Although I do think that professional breeders do have to kind of choose animals that are more financially viable you know projects like you know you don't see a lot of professional breeders getting into like shingleback skinks because you know you have like one or two babies a year and you got to hold them back to have a big group or whatever you know they're just not really a viable project for that

and but you know at the same time a lot of times professional breeders can get some of those pet projects that they don't really make money off of that they can fund with you know the yeah and i can see you know i can see professional breeders that have their their own little private interests off to the side sure you know it's it's uh you know it affords them the ability to do that and and if they're you're running a business like a business and it's like a job and you have employees and you have your own little thing, I could see that. But I agree with you. I don't think that some of that rare stuff that doesn't make sense in more of a commercial setting, you're not you're just, you're not going to see it, which sucks. And it sucks.

Like, so, so once again, why I'm team hobbyist. Yeah. And I think too, like, I think a lot of us have, have that attitude of, well, if I'm going to have one snake, I might as well have a pair of snakes, you know, and breed them. And, and I guess, um, I'm bad like that. I think, yeah, I am too. And I think, I just look at it like, what am I going to. And I think it doesn't make sense to me. I just look at it like, what am I going to do with one?

I can't, you know. But I mean, you can enjoy one. You can set it up really nice and have a cool, you know. But I think, you know, a lot of us like to. But you can set up two real nice too, right? That's my mentality. Like, I'm just kind of like, hey, if I can, you know, all right, all right. So having one and setting it up nice, that's, that's a win. But, but if I had a pair and I set them up really nice, that's a win

win. So, you know, two wins are better than one win. That's just how my, that's just how I look at it. It's true. I mean, yeah, I can't deny that happens in my brain as well. You know, it's like, I've got one, what am I going to do with that? You know, but I think if you're, and I think a lot of breeders, and I think it's still the case today, you know, they're pushing, you know, oh, you want to be a professional breeder. You want to keep a bunch of animals. You want to have all these projects and you want to, you know, make a lot of money. And that's kind of, it's almost like, I almost see it like an Amway or, you know, one of those multi-level marketing things where it's like, really? And it's kind of funny because when you sell animals as pairs, you're kind of funding or starting up your competitor's business. Are you talking about the morph market pyramid scheme?

Is that what you're talking about? It's a fine line to walk, isn't it? So I guess that multi-level marketing idea kind of pushes everybody into the idea that they need to have a giant wall of rack systems and have 200 animals or else they're not really viable in the hobby. And again, on Carpets and Coffee, Eric and the guys kind of discussed that, you know, idea. Like, you know, Eric kind of was saying, I'm getting back to just having a few pairs of animals that I really enjoy keeping or that are important projects. And so, you know, that's kind of, I think we need a revolution back into that kind of idea, you know. We can be keepers. We don't have to be breeders. And kind of when you straddle the line, a lot of times it's going to end up painful.

You're trying to be both a professional breeder and have a full-time job, and that's difficult. I'm realizing, well, I've realized this all the the time not that I do anything about it but I probably have too many animals you know I need to slim down my collection and and move on but you know it is what it is I guess we've all got the disease right well and we it's it's easy to vacillate because there's just you know there are so many you know in keeping there's the ups and downs the easy days the hard days of like you know you had a long day at work and then you gotta go home and clean all those cages you're like ah damn dude what am i like this is too much like why am i doing this to myself but then

at the same time you know you you have a great success and you're like ah damn that's what you know so there's too many cool reptiles that's the problem man they're just so cool so i mean you know i i don't think either i don't think either sentiment is wrong um i i certainly can can live in the duality of my situation um so yeah it's a balance and you gotta find that balance you know even if you're a professional breeder you can't just like continue to expand and expand and expand you know there's some growing pains and absolutely you know and i think to everybody's point like you as you grew and you learned you realized that and and and as eric grew and eric learned eric realized that it's it's just you you know you have to kind of figure that out

for yourself where's your line where's your level what are you doing what's your you know i mean it's you know it's your journey too dude yeah so you know i mean yeah and i mean we always you know i i guess that was kind of my first when my when i started breeding animals i was like okay i produced some animals and i sold them and i made some money and you know that kind of thing and then you're like oh well now if i had 100 animals, maybe I could make 100 times that much. And it rarely, rarely works that way. No, it doesn't really. Just expanding the number of animals you have does not necessarily, literally expand the amount of money you're making from those animals.

So I think that's kind of a dangerous thing, especially when you're starting. You have that excitement and everything's cool and everybody you know talks a good game about their projects that they're passionate about and so i think a lot of times we all start out kind of with the same projects and the same kind of you know everybody's like got a ball python boa you know that kind of thing corn snake and i remember because that's what everybody's excited about and that's what everybody breeds but you know yeah i remember when i kind of first met you and and when we were kind of you know becoming friends like like you i i you had this and i kind of had that like oh man if i had a bunch of snakes like i can breed a bunch of stuff and that would be good but then i kind of

like pay attention to how you would just, you would work very slowly, very methodically and like not, you know, not buy a ton of animals at a time, but, but get in on, on a specific project or do this or do that and, and, and do it very rationed and, and very logically. And I, I, you know, that was the, the first instance where I was kind of like, oh, I, that makes way more sense to me than the whole jumping in with both feet because you're leveraging your risk when you just start buying tons of animals and trying to do all that versus slow and steady wins the race, I think, is probably the –

and if you – and I you, if you, uh, and, and, you know, I know it's hard to, uh, you know, when you get all geeked out about something new like that and, and it's just like, oh my gosh, the sky's the limit with this. Holy crap. You know, I get, you know, like I, I don't fault anybody for jumping in with all the, all, you know, both feet, but, uh, but definitely that, that, uh, you know, that measured, slow approach probably is the good way to go.

That's interesting. I guess I probably learned the hard way and got into things too fast. Well, I think everybody does. Yeah, exactly. And so that's probably where that came from. Like, okay, maybe jumping in both feet first. I was behind the

curve i caught you ahead of the curve so you know i mean and we we all learn from each other so yeah and i think i came came from kind of like i mean i think i was i was an adult before i had that realization like oh you can breed these things you know you can keep a pair and produce babies and sell the baby you know that kind of idea didn't really hit me until I was an adult, you know? And so, and, and I think I was kind of forced to do things a little slower because I was a graduate student, you know, it wasn't a lot of time to be producing animals and things. And so, and, you know, having a business partner like Ben Morrill, that helped a lot. And Ben's a great guy and continues to produce some really neat animals and do some cool things in herpetoculture. So, you know,

there's a lot of good things that come out of that and working with Steve, you know, trying to have more lizard projects. I think that just ruined me and made me want more lizards instead. So, and snakes, you know, are a lot more conducive for my schedule and things like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I, okay. I think, okay, I think we've covered that topic. We'll move on. We killed it.

All right, man. So sensationalism. Yeah, sensationalism. This is interesting. I, you know, it just seems like sensationalism and influencers and all of that has been such a front and center thing. And I just have to really be honest and say that I'm just not into that shit. Your comments about, oh, you must not check out YouTube. No, you're exactly right, dude.

I don't. I stay away from it. It's not how I choose to spend my time. And consequently, I probably have a little bit of a gap in my knowledge about what the heck's going on in the hobby on social media. But I definitely can say, and there was a, I think it was a Carpets and Coffee episode recently where one of the guys really, really went off on, uh, on Brian. Maybe Riley. Yeah, maybe it might've been.

And, you know, I, I mean, I, I, I didn't disagree with anything that he was saying. He really laid it down and, but you know, at the same time, I'm just like, ah, the whole thing is so is so you know kind of a a big barrel of fish you know and and it's like shooting fish in the barrel and you can find something wrong with what this guy's doing or that guy's doing or you know and it's uh you know and i i'm i certainly am not a big fan of brian and and all you know his trajectory and the hobby. And, you know, but at the same time, like, I don't know, man, you know, like, yeah. Does he care about his YouTube channel? Yeah.

But I mean, are you going to talk shit about a professional breeder who just cares about his his business? Well, yeah, he built that. Like, that's his source of income. Like, that's how Brian pays his bills. Like, yeah, he built that. Like that's his source of income. Like that's how Brian pays his bills. Like I get it. And that's how he has more animals and keeps, you know, those animals in better conditions and things. I mean, and so he does have to protect, yeah, he does have to protect that. And I can see why, you know, and,

and so I guess it gets back into like the, the, the subtleties of people's motivations and, and on the surface, it's easy to criticize, but when you peel that onion back, you know, it's, there's people are complex and, and, you know, Brian's had some real success and some real challenges. So, you know, it's just one of those things where I was like, man, what a, you know, tough, tough, tough, because, because you could, you know, if you want to point the spotlight at anybody it's probably easy to start picking them apart oh yeah yeah i mean i've i've met brian i've hung out

with him on several occasions and i will say he's the real deal like he loves animals he he loves reptiles and he's passionate about them and he and he has dedicated his life to him and i don't he's a personality like yeah when you're a personality and you have a platform and an audience like I just think the YouTube channel for him was probably a pretty natural progression oh yeah yeah and he's been doing it for how long I mean this is not a new thing he's had a YouTube channel you know from basically the start of YouTube it's been a long time so I you know I I think he you know, I, I think he, he deserves that success. I think he's, he's worked hard for that success. And, and I, as far as,

you know, I, I mean, yeah, I've heard stories about people who've gotten the wrong animals or things and I, you know, maybe that's that big breeder thing where he was just too big and wrong animals got sent out or employees were doing silly things. Who knows, you know, it's hard to say. So I'm not going to necessarily, you know know judge him or condemn him for that but i i really i i like the guy i don't know i you know and maybe that's not a popular opinion with some but i i think he's he you know the things he's done have been mostly positive yeah i i thought that venom hunter show was the most ridiculous thing i've ever seen you know and it was just it was just fake and i think scott eiper kind of touched on that a little bit

on that coffee and carpets with um where he was talking about how you know just be honest there you're not out hunting venom you know that's not a thing people don't do that you know so and and that sensationalism trying to make things into things they aren't. You know, I like that honesty. Like, you know, that's why I like the planet Earth. And, you know, I think to your points on that episode, you know, those nature shows, they show the most dramatic, exciting things in nature, you know. And maybe, I mean, the life of a python is probably not that exciting. You know, they probably sit around for most of their life. We catch them out crossing a road or something or traveling through the bush.

That's probably a very low activity, low percentage activity that they perform is being out in the open, moving around, maybe looking for a mate or a food or something like that. So we do sensationalize a little bit the most exciting events in nature. And then everybody maybe thinks, oh, that's what nature is, is exciting. And they go out and they're like, well, I don't really see anything. I don't see these amazing natural events. And so I think that's, to me, that's part of it too. You have to get out and have, get struck out, not find anything and have to like sit back and just enjoy the rocks or the, you know, and find the beauty all around you without

having to hype it up and get you excited. I mean, I think we've seen a dramatic increase in the number of people outdoors. I mean, I'm in Utah. We've got national parks here. And, man, the national parks are packed full of people. And, you know, that's kind of hard for me because I was, you know, used to going down when I was a kid and being able to not have to stand in line to go on a hike, you know, that kind of thing,

where I'd just go and have the whole go on a hike, you know, that kind of thing where I just go and have the whole place to myself almost, you know, and not have to have 50 other people sharing that event with me. And so it's harder to get out and kind of be alone in nature anymore, especially in some of these more popular spots. Um, I will say if you're in one of the more popular spots, if you go about a mile away from one of the main trails you're probably not going to see very many people you know especially if it's a more difficult route or things like that so there are ways to get away yeah i think or to find little niches where you can i think that's a very astute way to say that but you know sensationalism i think it we're we're

kind of trapped into it and you know the youtubers they have to go with the way YouTube works. And YouTube works off of the sensationalism. It works off of those, what's it called? The titles that are misleading, that annoy the heck out of me. What's that called again? I'm not thinking straight. But anyway, the catchers the the attention grabbers what's that called when they do that maybe i don't know it's the bait

and switch but yeah yeah the clickbait clickbait oh yeah oh wow i should have came with that yeah my bad i did not support you well i hate the clickbait but they they have came with that. My bad. My bad. I did not support you well in that moment. I hate the clickbait, but they have to use that because that's what the algorithm calls for. And that's why people click on these things. I guess, I don't know, maybe those sheeple out there clicking how it should be represented and, you know, the way people should work forward. And are there better ways that we should do things? And yes, but we just don't we don't get to make the you know, the best thing you can do is be involved and be a positive be a positive contributor in the way that you contribute but you're never gonna you know control the way other people can contribute in a free and open society you know what i mean so it is what it is yep yep that's for sure all right huh how about high-priced reptiles any

additional thoughts on that he's still like the high price yeah i mean again it goes back it goes back to our uh zach and and ryan uh uv topic about how you know ryan was basically saying that um you know he was talking about people going in and and buying their first reptile and you got to set them up right. And, you know, they just go in and they buy whatever crappy equipment and they don't really learn how to take care of the animal. And, you know, and I just couldn't help but sit there as he's saying all this and think, yeah, but if the animal was really expensive and it was actually a purchase that you know that that mom or dad or whoever had to take pause and really think about you know would you

know if and and you know Ryan was saying like oh you can go on the internet and you can find you know something saying this and something saying that and what you know this person has this opinion this person has the opposite opinion and what's right and it's like well yeah that's always out there i mean we don't we don't incentivize the correct opinion and or the correct information in our society you can you can find the right on both which is why we have a hard time with you know fact from fiction and science, because there's people who are allowed to push bad science to make a counter argument. Right.

So I just kind of feel like, you know, and as I said in the podcast, like that mechanism of that higher priced animal making people like, oh, man, maybe I should like I got to think about this. And, you know, it's easy when you don't pay shit for something and you can buy just cheap equipment and you just slap it together and if it doesn't work out it doesn't work out but if if it was if it was really an investment then you wouldn't just settle for well this guy says this this guy says that maybe that sounds right like you would actually go through and figure it out for yourself so like I said you know I think that that that whole idea of sifting through the

opinion and stuff happens because you're invested whether you know and maybe in a new a new keeper they're not as emotionally invested or they're not you know that's not like their thing yet they haven't really latched onto it, but maybe if they're financially invested and it's that idea that, you know, maybe the money helps drive the good decision. Sure. Yeah. And, and frankly, I don't think any animal should be, you know, inexpensive to purchase. You know, you look at like the poor goldfish or beta fish or whatever, you know, just because

they're, I mean, beta fish are some of the most beautiful fish out there, you know, but then they're kept in squalid conditions because they're cheap and people don't care if they live or die, you know. And I think when you equate an animal's existence to its price tag, then, you know, you're running into problems there. But at the same time, I think once you get past a certain point, it just becomes ridiculous. You know, like I don't think anything should be, you know, tens of thousands of dollars unless, you know, it requires. Like I almost think iguanas should be, you know, several hundred or thousand dollars, you know, because the level of care that they require to keep them suitably is very expensive. And so maybe only people who can afford their care should be able to keep them. Should a Komodo dragon be $50? Of course not.

That would be tragedy. So yeah, I kind of agree that higher priced animals make you think twice about how you're keeping them. You're going to do all you can. You're going to take them to the vet when they're sick. If you have an animal that's worth $30 and you've got that in your head, like this is a $30 animal, are you going to go to the vet and spend $100 to have the vet check it out? Probably not. You're probably going to go, well, I'll just buy another $30 animal. Or three $30 animals for the price of that vet check.

And so that's where it becomes difficult. And you make these ethical decisions based on, you know, your money, your pocketbook. And that should not be the case. So, but that's a tricky thing. I mean, as long as there's imports, we're going to have cheap animals and people are going to value them less because they're cheap. Even though some of those cheap animals are some of the most cool animals out there. Some of those popular animals out there.

And it goes to, you know, like I'm into shooting. I'm a sporting enthusiast. And the price of ammunition right now is absolutely crazy because you just can't get it. It's a supply and demand thing. So, you know, if we're talking about, um,

you know, turn my phone down here. Sorry, man. I think it's so funny. Like I'm surprised more gun stores don't vote Democrat because it seems like every time a Democrat gets elected, gun sales go through the roof and ammunition sales.

Like I'd be, it's such a silly, it's such a's why it's such a silly it's such a silly it's such a silly thing it's really ridiculous the best thing for gun sales are democrats i don't know why that where where that like yeah because they're gonna come take your guns well and you look at it it's like they started talking about that and then and then it gets brought up and like nothing happens because every politician knows that's a loser you don't want to be on the bad side of that and yeah you know politicians are not stupid they know what topics not to touch yeah and i don't think that we need to take away gun rights i think we just need to make sure that we make good gun laws that make sense and we just have some holes in what we do now that doesn't make any sense hi so that's a that's the most complex topic you know of course it is we don't

want to discuss it you're tackling here but you know like uh i i heard a joke yesterday i was listening to a podcast um my brain is not functioning today but anyway he said something like there's nothing that can be done says This is the only country where the problem happens, you know, like the, the number of mass shootings and things like that is ridiculous. And, you know, we should be better. There's just a lot of issues underlying firearms in this country that have nothing to do with fire. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, it's definitely, that's, that's a big, that's a big part of firearms. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's definitely... That's a big part of it.

And, you know, anyway, back on topic. But, yeah, my point was that, you know, when animals get as hard to get as ammunition does, prices will come up. Oh, yeah. And, you know, the coveting and the value of that just through that mechanism of supply and demand um but since we have this flow of easy cheap uh reptiles i just i don't think it always leads to the best of outcomes you know what i mean and a lot of those you know kind

of that pro versus hobbyist debate a lot of those negative things that occur often happen through the importers because, you know, the animals come in in worse health. They have parasites. They have issues. You know, they might be on death's door, but then the person has to make the choice. Do I sell this anyway or do I, you know, be ethical? You know, that's the trick. And so, and, and you see, I mean, a lot of examples of animals that used to be dirt cheap and used to come in all the time and huge abundance. And now we, they don't, they stopped that export of those animals. And now the price just went through the

roof. You know, a good example is the Crucia zebrata, the, um, monkey tailed skinks that were, you know, basically considered garbage animals you know they were just 50 lizards i mean they're pretty impressive and cool garbage anymore now they're now you're lucky if you find them for under a thousand but now yeah you know an additional import uh occurred and so now they're starting to be more reasonable you know down to five six hundred dollars an animal but still you know that down to five, $600 an animal, but still, you know, that's a good chunk of change for most people. And so they're not gonna, you know, if they really want that animal, you know, that's, and that's a, that's a good thing.

So I think we're, you know, pretty much on the same page there, but I really think there's a limit to it. You know, once you get, start getting into the tens of thousands of dollars, it's like, okay, unless this is an animal that, you know, is, is so specialized and maybe that's the case. Maybe I'm, I'm off on that. You know, maybe Bolin should be $10,000 a piece. Maybe people should, you know, it's, it's hard to say. I mean, it's tough to, it's tough to say they should be $10,000 a piece when nobody can reproduce them that's the thing that's the hard thing I get it

if somebody could figure it out and we say that if we could have a path forward where we could reproduce these then maybe $10,000 an animal makes sense at some level right yeah but right now it just doesn't even make sense like nobody's reproducing these they're all wildcats that are coming in as you know captive hatched um a few people are reproducing them but not enough to

keep up with the demand you know that's exactly the key I guess. I don't think they're being reproduced in numbers enough to say that the captive care of them is actually moving forward. I just think that people get lucky every once in a while. No one's quite figured it out. Seems like there's been a few people that have had repeated success. I think there's definitely some people who have made some good insights. And I think it's one of those things that will be coming along in the coming years. More and more people will start to, as everybody starts to do those little things, that this person had some success doing

this and try that try this then everybody's it kind of just kind of moves it all forward and and and gradually more and more and more and more people have success with it so um it's that shared that shared knowledge stuff yeah and i definitely could see like having that having that high bar having that high bar probably only keeps people in there that probably should be investing that much money in animals, you know? And so, but I guess I just, I wonder how many people are out there that have a lot of expendable income and are really good at breeding animals. You know, that's kind of, you just reduce your pool. So I guess people that do have success might be the ones to. You know, that's kind of, you just reduce your pool. So I guess people that do have success might be the ones to, you know, yeah, maybe they sell a few bullens for

$10,000 each, but maybe they place some bullens out on breeding loan or whatever with people who are capable, you know, that just need a chance to work with them and can do fantastic with them. I think that would be a really smart move, but you that's tricky you know to tell somebody what to do with their animals is not not our place of course okay yeah we can move on moving on moving on um hybrids and integrates from morphs we talked about the pros and cons of you know having integrates and and hybrids this was an interesting one and i i still feel really strongly about everything that I said about that. And interestingly, this was brought up on, I don't remember if it was brought up on Carpets and Coffee or NPR, but Eric was just like, yeah, you know, Chuck was kind of talking about this,

and this is kind of what he said. And I guess I was really kind of surprised that it sounded like the idea that, that just valuing the animal for the value of, of, of the animal got dismissed very quickly. Yeah. And, and, and from what I heard and I,

you know, not but heard about it, but it is kind of like, huh, all right, well, you know, we're,

we're very, we're definitely very caught up in the name and the, you know, the outward view of what that is, you know? Yeah. There definitely needs to be a revolution to appreciate an animal because it's, because it's there, you know, not necessarily because what, what morph it has or what value somebody's placed on it, you know?

And, and I think there's's you know definitely um beauty in every animal you know even the the dirt ugly ones have a reason they're dirt ugly and blend in nicely with dirt you know so that's kind of a cool thing too some of the most cool reptiles are those ones that are very cryptic and blend right in with their background. Um, yeah, that's a, that's a tricky one. I don't think that's going to stop and people are going to chase the morphs and morphs are still one of the first questions people ask what morph is that, you know? And so, and nobody wants to look at, you know, something, you know,

they want to look at the best example they can and, you know, and I mean, it's just kind of like so you either you either say all right in carpets morphs are bad uh integrates hybrids they're bad um we don't support any of that but that's not what people do they sit there and they say like well morphs have their place and and I like to look at a pretty snake or whatever. But then they're like, but I don't like hybrids and I don't like integrates. And it's like, well, then you're just stuck in an argument going two directions then. Because they're inexplicably linked to each other. You're not going to do one without the other uh and and to try to say like ah this this this morph is okay

because it doesn't produce a lot of uh problematic stuff uh but this one is totally not you know you're not going to control that argument that way and or nobody's going to listen to you and people are going to do so either you know morphs are bad integrates are bad, just because of the way carpets are, or they're not. That's kind of how I see it. The best point that came out of that, I think, is that why do we value something or devalue something because it lacks a gene, a mutant gene? I think that's really the downside of it. Or it has a couple of names thrown onto it. You know, it's just, I mean. Well, and we, you know, just to say like, oh, this one, because it has this, you know, mutated gene is worth, you know, 10 times or a hundred times the one that doesn't have that mutated gene. And then it just gives that perception that the one without the mutated gene is garbage and just kind of byproduct.

And you just feed it off to your cobra or you euthanize it or something. And then you're just, that's a business. You're just making business decisions rather than you care about the animals. So I see chasing that morphs and devaluing the intergrades or hybrids as kind of that attitude. I thought that was a really good point you made there. So right on. Zoos and hobbyists. I thought that was some good information from Steve and Ryan.

Good discussion about, you know, some of the downsides of working with the hobbyists and maybe some inroads for hobbyists to work with zoos. Maybe, you know, hobbyists don't care that much. I don't know, maybe, uh, I, I like the, the idea that you could be involved in, in potentially like a, you know, stud book or, or having, you know, adopting some of the, I thought that was some of the best, uh, advice that came out of that show was to adopt some of the methods that the zoos use. And I think that kind of got revisited in the UV discussion and some of the methods that the zoos use. And I think that kind of got revisited in the UV

discussion and some of the naturalistic discussions and things like that. Zoos kind of have the opportunity to pave the way. And I think a good way that zoos and hobbyists can work together is that we can learn from how zoos do things. And if they were more apt to share that information you know how to build a big naturalistic enclosure or how to make that work successfully or share technology ideas on how to you know make the sunrise in your cage that kind of thing or how to do things you know in an economical manner because you know that's what zoos become good at, I think. Well, there are,

there are a lot of smart keepers out there working for zoos and they're, they're networked. I mean, you could obviously see that Steve and Ryan were kind of networked. They knew each other. They, they, you know, obviously when they do, you know, inspections for other keepers and stuff, they'll go do it for each other. So, you know i i just think there's that that that that great network that you know you gotta find a way to plug those couple of things in the to the private hobby and and uh and you know figure out ways we can benefit each other

yeah that was that was my biggest takeaway was to to try to adopt some of the things that zoos are doing and then you know i'm trying to do that with my collection get bigger caging for the animals make them more um you know naturalistic or or you know those kind of things i i like that idea i like the idea of going into my reptile room and having part of australia or whatever in my reptile room you know and uh that's of course if you're breeding animals you probably need to have some rack systems for the babies because who has you know room for 20 naturalistic cages for 20 hatchlings you know and if you have more than one clutch you know you're you're out of room real quick and so yeah well and i think that was one of the things that came out of the

naturalistic versus sterile you know conversation as well as is that there's really nothing wrong with doing both you know that that i think you know the idea that that uh racks are are wholly lacking and it's not a good situation or you know you but somehow you're you're you're doing a disservice to your animals by keeping them in racks well there could be a case made for that but at the same time there's a good argument against it and i think that you know that that flatly just saying like uh racks are bad naturalistic setups are are good everybody should do that as a yeah it's a stupid it's a stupid argument yeah yeah and i mean we'll hit on that in a minute it's a stupid it's a stupid argument yeah yeah and i mean

we'll hit on that in a minute but yeah there's there's a lot of um kind of in between as well you know it may not just be one or the other um anything else for zoos and hobbyists i think that was you know some good information good to hear it from perspective of zookeepers and you know i i would listen to r Ryan did another interview. I think it was Reptiles at Home podcast. And it might even have been before this one that we did with him. And just some great information. You know, Ryan and Steve are really knowledgeable and do a really good job.

And have been really good in herpetoculture. And I think that's what makes them such great zookeepers is they know the animals. They know what they're doing in regards to animals. They didn't just get into it because they wanted to work for a zoo. They got into it because they wanted to work with reptiles in a zoo. Yeah, I think that definitely both of them are shining examples of people that come out of the reptile industry or are affiliated and go on to work with them professionally and oh hey happy birthday to terry phillip it's his birthday yeah so i wanted to give him a shout

out i i popped into my head and we were talking about great reptile people and i'm like dang man happy birthday dude so i hope you're having a good day that Terry. That is a little random spot for it, but yeah. It is random. Now you see what kind of squirrel is in my brain. But I mean, speaking of zookeepers, Terry is the man. Yeah, his venomous experience. He's just been dedicated to that field for a long time. And it's a little different. It's more of a private zoo rather than a city know city funded zoo or whatever you want to call it so um but he he does some amazing work there has some uh fantastic animals i mean he's done some he's

bred parentes you know in his facility and and all these different things so the guy is is the real deal and oh yeah He's a great friend. Yeah. So I think that's a good spot for it. He's a very good example of a zookeeper that works well with the private hobby. He bred a lot of animals himself for a while in his private collection. He still does, but less up front in the private sector. I wish we could get him on.

I hope maybe we could goad him into coming on and doing a mild disagreement club podcast. That would be fantastic. I love listening to him talk, and the times I've just sat and chatted with him, the conversations we've had have been fantastic. He's very insightful. Very insightful guy.

Smart dude. Well, maybe that leads us into influencers. I think Terry's one of my big influencers. And a great example of a positive influencer. Exactly. If you were an influencer, that's the kind of influencer I'm into. Yep, and I think that's why, you know, a little bit why he kind of left the hobby is because he had so much attention.

He had both positive and negative people trying to ascribe negative things to him that just really weren't true or there, you know. Yeah, to watch people come at him. And the drama and stuff. Yeah, it was ridiculous. Yeah, and it was just like, man, you guys are's just it was really douchey you know what i mean and to see him sour over the community a little bit because of other people and they're just fuckery i think that bothered me i mean influencers i i think we kind of quantify that and say oh if they have this many followers or

this whatever but I think real, you know, real influencers don't need any real platform. I mean, you know what, Terry did a couple, you know, NPR interviews or things like that. And man, he just, everybody was so keyed into whatever he was saying. And, and, and rightly so, I mean, maybe it wasn't necessarily ideas that everybody needed to adopt wholesale, but, uh wholesale and maybe kind of incorporate some of those ideas into their collections. But I think regardless, I mean, he's brilliant. He's done this for a very long time. He knows the animals.

He changed my game for sure, dude. I mean, some of the stuff that he said and and and things he did i was just like man this is this is what wow you know i blew my mind just blew my mind yeah he's one of my big influences in in the reptile uh hobby um there's you know others i i really like early on you know casey lazik uh pete coon python pete um frank reedies you Pete, Frank Reedy's, you know, all these, Alan Rapashi, like, you know, getting to know these guys and meeting them and talking with them and hearing their, the information they've gleaned over a lifetime of keeping reptiles. You know, it's just, that's, there's so many just great keepers out there. I got to hang out with Keith McPeak a little while back. Yeah.

Yeah. He's just, you know, these guys are the real deal, and they know a lot about what they're doing. And they don't really, they don't seem to have an ego. I mean, maybe Frank a little bit. You know, they're pretty good about sharing information and building the hobby and just being that positive influence, you know, doing things for, for the animals. Um, so yeah, I, I think there, obviously, you know, this, this, uh, debate between, uh, the NPR and the THP guys, um, it was, it was fun to listen to, and it was even funner to be there in person, you know, watch the, watch the round table around a round table, you know, and that kind of thing.

So it was pretty fun. And I just really enjoyed hanging out with those guys and getting to know them. And Justin Smith is hilarious. He's really a funny guy, you know. I wish he talked louder. He's kind of a quiet talker, so I missed about half the things he said. But I really enjoyed getting to know those guys. Phil is very knowledgeable and just an all-around nice guy. He was fun to hang out with despite his driving challenges.

Sorry, Phil, I had to throw that in. Oh, yeah. We got to tease him quite a bit about that. But, of course, Eric and Rob, they're just great friends, and I really just enjoy hanging out and herping with those guys but you know good insights there I think you know there's a lot of negativity that's you know like we were talking about

Brian Barczyk a little earlier you know there's a lot of negative things that surround him and a lot of people have come at him but I think overall I mean his heart's in it he's trying to do things for the right reason I think he gets people excited about reptiles in general and I think it's people excited about reptiles in general. And I think it's a good thing to have.

There's so much that you can criticize people for. And I get it. People who criticize him, it's not lost on them either. It's not just a, you know, they may not agree with it, but it is what it is. And even they'll say like, hey, it is what it is. And I think that's kind of the point. There's definitely a place for constructive criticism too. I mean, like the video they were discussing on Carpets and Coffee,

they were talking about this guy put out a video saying, hey, you know, here's maybe some way you can take a stand on one or the other. You know, either be a rat guy or a naturalistic cage setup guy. Don't try to straddle the fence and please, you know, the big breeders while trying to reach a handout to the 99%, you know, reptile keepers, whatever. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. No, no, that's fair. A coherent message, right? Like if you're, if you're going to put things out there, have a fucking coherent message.

Like, so it doesn't just look like you'll say whatever and you really don't. I mean, you're, you know, I agree. I definitely agree with that. Well, and again, we talked about, you know, holding people to their, the things they did when they first started out. Nobody wants to be held to that. And we all develop and gain new insights and change things. And so, you know, I think for what it's worth, there are some good influencers out there. Of course, there's others that are doing very stupid things that could bring down

legislation and things on us. Who was the, who was the, who was the kid who, who's Cobra got out? Yeah. Right. And man, so going back to that show where I said, and I don't remember what, Oh, that was a, that was the pros and cons of regulation, I think I said, that basically I didn't think that events like that moved the needle very much. And I think that's clearly, I think this guy was on YouTube, too. It's like he had, he was out there with you know, clearly it moved the needle.

So I retract my previous statement. Thank you very much, buddy. Yeah, right. Thank you. Sucks. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, we've got to know those things are going to happen.

There's going to be people out there. I mean, what is crime? It's just people doing things irresponsibly and not according to social norms. And so, you know, he probably thought he had the right to do whatever he wanted to do with his animals, but clearly whatever he was doing ended up poorly, you know, and now the rest of us may suffer because of that, at least people local to him. So yeah, influencers have to be very careful with what they do. And, you know, I don't know, that's, that's a, I, that's a tough place to be in, I think.

But I think we can all be influencers in some way, you know, be a positive influence, really help promote responsible keeping, help promote people, you know making good choices in in the things they're doing and considering the different uh uh facets of herpetoculture um absolutely it's about all we can do right any other thoughts on that no no moving on okay um we touched on this a little bit naturalistic versus sterile setups i mean obviously there's there's in-betweens and i think just because you keep in a rack doesn't mean you have to have everything you know completely just sterile you know paper towels and a water bowl and that's it you know you can incorporate perches and hides and different things into a rack system and you can you know a lot of things are

more uh better kept in in a rack system in some ways. You know, like I gave the Gila monster example where they tried keeping in the zoo in a very naturalistic setup and they just didn't produce, didn't do anything. Yeah, didn't do, didn't behave naturally because they weren't being kept necessarily naturalistic. I think a lot of times we have the idea that if it's got rocks and plants and and you know isopods and then it's naturalistic but yeah you need to understand the animal's natural history you need to understand what they do in the wild so you can replicate those important features like terry said you know just because he keeps prairie rattlesnakes and it snows in their you know natural habitat he's not shoveling snow into into their enclosure absolutely yeah so well and i think you know you you see like um i don't remember who this person was but they were they

were like an ecologist and they were basically talking about how you know humans are changing the landscape so much that what what is a natural landscape anymore is is changing to the point where like large raptors are actually making their homes on skyscrapers in cities and things like that. So this idea of what a natural environment versus an acceptable environment for animals, you know, whether you're talking about a naturalistic cage or a tub, or whether you're talking about a nest in a tree versus a nest on a skyscraper clearly those things aren't the same but at the same time here you see animals doing their natural behaviors in artificial not normal environments and carrying on with their life. So I think it kind of goes to the idea that all animals have this

plasticity in their life where, yes, it may not be a naturalistic environment, but they can still adapt to that environment and succeed as long as they're given the resources that they need to do so. Well, again, I mean, there's some species that do very well. I mean, you see like what the blood, blood pythons, I think, have just exploded because they do well in those palm forests. That's because they shit all over everything. Oh, you mean, oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.

They can, they can make their home in these, in these modified environments, whereas other species disappear from those areas. They don't do well in palm plantations at all, you know? And so, um, it depends on, I mean, we can have a monoculture like, you know, in these, in these cities, you'll see a lot of pigeons, pigeons do great, you know, in an adapted environment and, and different species, you know, uh, can, can adapt well, others can't. And so I think, you know, it depends on the species. Sometimes you have a species that you could keep in a sterile box

and would do just fine and not be affected at all because it can invade, you know, a human-modified environment and do great and not be affected at all. So, you know, it depends on the species, I think, in some ways. And in other ways, you know, we just really need to understand their natural history, what's important for them. For a gurney, you know, like the spiny-tailed skinks, you need, like, rocks and cracks or trees or whatever. They like to hide in those cracks. So if you're meeting those needs, they're probably going to feel secure and happy, regardless if, you know, the rocks are fake or the rocks are if it's wood or whatever

you know you're using a reed stack or something you know there's different uh things so i i think and you know we go to a lot of times when we're out herping we go to junkyards and flip over tin or flip over boards and and you find reptiles under there you know it's a lot easier than flipping rocks you know rocks can be a back-breaking laborious laborious work but you know so a lot of things to consider there but um i i don't think there's you know a definite yes you have to use this or that every time and there's some middle ground and you can make a rack setup in some cases better than a and than a naturalistic setup. And I think it's just a situationally based thing. Sure.

Yeah. So, you know, good things to think about. You know, don't be hassling people because they don't keep animals the way you think they should. Right? I mean, unless they're grossly neglecting the animal's well-being, then, of course, say something. I mean, you know, a lot of people think, oh, a naturalistic cage. I'm going to put a light bulb on top of the cage because that replicates the sun. I'm going to have a screen top because that represents, you know, they can have some airflow and then, you know, I'll just stick them in there on some dirt, you know, and put some isopods in.

Well, you just made a beef jerky machine for some species, you know, if you're keeping a ball python in there, they're going to have shedding issues, they're going to dry out, they're going to be dehydrated all the time, you're going to kill them. But for other species, you know, if you're keeping a ball python in there, they're going to have shedding issues. They're going to dry out. They're going to be dehydrated all the time. You're going to kill them. But for other species, you know, that's probably exactly what they need. And they're just fine with that. And maybe throwing a UV light in there as well. And you're good to go. But, um, so, you know, I think our ideas of, uh, how we design and how we build enclosures needs to be based on the natural history of the animal, or else you're just kind of spinning your wheels, I think, or making it for you. I think there are a lot, like a lot, I would think this applies to zoos as well. A lot of zoo enclosures are not necessarily for the animals,

because most roast reptiles displayed in a truly naturalistic environment, you won't see them. Right. You know, except certain times of the night you know and so um they they need to consider the people coming to the zoo want to see the animals and you know there there may be changes in that regard too maybe you go through a zoo and you have a guide like steve was talking about on on the uh zoo and hobbyist episode um where you might just be guided through the zoo and the zookeeper points out, oh, you can see a portion of the animal there or something.

And it's funny, too, when I go to the zoo and I might find an animal and people walk by and miss it completely and they just move on to the next cage. So as long as there's enough cages and there's some animals out, you know, I don't think that's the biggest deal. But I like to kind of search for them myself, you know, and try to see if I can see them displaying natural behaviors. But that's tricky, you know, with snakes that spend a lot of time in a hole, you know, not moving for months at a time sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, that can be tricky.

Well, and that's why not everything makes it out for display, right? Yep, exactly. Not all animals make good display animals. Some animals are happy to be underground 90% of their life and never see the outside world. Okay, reptile regulations. I think we hit a little bit on that earlier. We did hit a little bit on it.

I mean, I think that's kind of made my point is uh you know uh regulation is one of those things that's probably coming to us uh whether we like it or not and uh you know again support not doing stupid shit yeah support us and being active and and uh you know making sure that the the the you know that the the type of legislation that we see is the type of legislation that we want. Yeah. But if we're making bad decisions and we're doing dumb stuff and we're not following, not making an effort to follow the rules and act recklessly, that's just not going to work out good for us. End of story.

Yeah. It's not. For sure. recklessly like that's just not going to work out good for us and the story yeah it's not for sure so we got to be careful with the way we're keeping and make sure we don't get you know bring as less uh heat down on us from opposing groups as possible but oh yeah that's impossible i mean that's impossible there's always going to be some regulations that come out because some politician gets a wild hair or hears a story about a giant python in a drug dealer's living room or something, and they're going to do it regardless. So we need to support groups like U.S. ARC to defend our rights and things to keeping reptiles. Now, some of those rights maybe shouldn't be as non-negotiable as we think they might be.

Sure. And I think a lot of places are, like my home state of Utah, they're making really logical and good changes to the reptile regulations in Utah. And it's been really encouraging to see. I'm curious to talk to some of those wildlife officials and see how that's working out and see if that's improving the state of things. But I think it's a great, great thing. All right. Blacklisting versus forgiveness. That was another one that they hit on on in the carpets and coffee

and i think i made a good discussion there so maybe maybe check them out and listen to that discussion but yeah it would be a nice to have a list of shitheads like i agree i'm just you know being honest yeah no it's it's a it's a tricky tricky thing but i think you know vote with your dollar make make good decisions. Just, I don't know, we have such a hard time when somebody has an animal we want. We're willing to take a lot of risk to get that animal. And a lot of times it doesn't work out, you know. And maybe it works out for some people and not others.

Maybe you get lucky and maybe it's worth the gamble. I don't know but we kind of have that bug in us that we want to take risks if it if it's you know we can acquire a certain type of animal that we've always wanted or something like that but a lot of times that you know it comes back to bite you so just be very careful in uh your dealings in the reptile industry for some reason there seems to be quite a few kind of shysters out there that try to you you a bill of goods that's not worth your money. Yeah, for sure. For sure.

All right. Yeah, I don't know what else to say about that, I guess. I guess we shouldn't hold, like we were saying earlier, we shouldn't hold somebody to ideals they had 20 years ago necessarily. But we try to let people move forward and redeem themselves, I guess, by showing that they're not going to do shady stuff anymore. The UV debate. That was a good discussion. And I think a lot of good topics were brought up you got something else to bring up in that regard no i just uh it was an interesting debate i i think um you know just being a plant guy and uh working a lot with plant lighting and

and just some of the you know I was kind of heavily into plants when LEDs kind of first started coming out. And I just, you know, have seen a lot of issues around LEDs and most of the time, and, you know, it's interesting. It's interesting what Ryan's doing. I would like to see his spectral curves i would like to see a lot more of this data that is out there because my experience around leds is that they don't do so a lot of times what a lot of plant keepers are doing when they're growing indoors, they're using LEDs for their full spectrum light, their visible spectrum light.

And then they're using like a ceramic metal halide or they're using a high energy discharge bulb to get into the UV spectrum. to the the uv um the spectrum so not saying that um you know led can't produce um uv in in the proper wavelengths or um you know it's just i i would just like to see more information around that technology before i buy in i really you know um I own all Arcadia bulbs. I think mixed gas tubes, plasma tubes are kind of a nice way to go. And they do, Arcadia does a really good job of putting a lot of information about their products on their page. So I hope Ryan kind of follows suit with that and really starts to push the, you know, put, push the data out to people so that they can see for themselves. And, um, you know, that there's, there's definitely some, some questions in my mind and I, I really like a lot of what he said and where he wants to go. And, and, you know, I like his

thinking around the, um, where he wants to push products and, and, you know, I like his thinking around the, um, where he wants to push products and, and the, uh, the industry. Um, I just, you know, I'm a show me kind of guy. Yeah. And it sounds like he, he understands the challenges with the LED UVs and I think he's thought about those things. And so, you know, I I'm encouraged by that discussion that, you know, he's not just trying to peddle his wares and get money and move on to the next town. So I think I'm looking forward to that as well. Where he bought a UV spectrometer, he's considering those things and he understands the importance of that. And it sounds like they're planning on putting lots of information on their website, which is helpful, you know, different studies and things. So I look forward to seeing that and hope and, you know, wish him the best of luck in that regard, because it's nice to push that envelope forward, you know.

And I listened to another episode. It's the Reptiles in Home podcast. Is that what it's called? Oh, yeah. Reptiles at Home. I think so. Yeah, Reptiles at Home podcast. It's really insightful and a lot of good information on that podcast. I'd recommend listening to that. And he's

had some really good discussions on UV and I've been going back and listening to those. And one was kind of the dangers or the shortcomings of UV LEDs by one of the Arcadia folks. And so, you know, that was a really interesting topic and I learned a lot from that, but there was another, um, discussion on, there was some, uh, uh, keeper, I believe he was a zookeeper as well, but he was looking at moving forward um like a uh design where you know as the day progressed you know it was like the sun was coming up in your reptile room so like different uv lights would come on in different spots of the cage and you know over time it was

really cool and i think that's yeah that's a fantastic idea yeah yeah that's a fantastic idea. Yeah, yeah. I think that's a fantastic idea. He was controlling everything with a computer system and stuff like that. And so I really think we need to move things forward and try to advance what we're doing in the reptile hobby. I think if we can continue to push the envelope and develop new technologies and and i like the idea of you know ryan moving forward with a new led bulb and hopefully he can overcome the the challenge the the challenges and use new technology to move that forward i think that's you know what what needs to happen and as soon as we say oh you know it's good enough as it is that's when we stop progressing and that's when we kind of fall behind

and and and the animals are the ones that are going to lose out so we need to oh the well the guy that that talked about his uh development of advanced lighting systems was Sam Parrott, another British guy, I believe. But really cool insights into UV lighting and lighting for reptiles in general. So good stuff, good information. Yeah, I think it's a good, like Ryan was saying, it's a good time for reptiles, and we're actually starting to see technologies that, you know, are being targeted towards reptiles. I think that, you know, anytime there's, you know, a lot of our lighting technology comes from plants, right?

And then, you know, as somebody who creates a technology says, well, how do we grow this market? What are our other applications? What are our off-label applications for this? Just like pharmaceutical pharmaceuticals right and and that's where some of this stuff comes and and it takes those individuals to take that technology and say you know this does good for plants but it's it's not really set up for us we need to do this we need to do you know and and goes in and does that work that that that, that really specific, like, like, again, I bring it up Arcadia where they've really gone through and, and done different percentages of UV bulbs and, and done a lot of the informational work for people to show them,

you know, what bulb to buy, how to use it, what animals will it work for um and i think that's you know that's one of those things where you gotta lay that groundwork because you know like we were talking um you can really fuck an animal up if you just give somebody a uv bulb and tell them to stick it in their cage and run in all day long you know yeah i mean that that zach made that point very clear i think um so so it's definitely not a, you know. And I heard guys, you know, after Ryan did some other interviews who were like, yep, UV is the shit. Like, I'm going to use UV on everything. And it's, listen, I'm not saying that not using UV, that UV is not necessary or you shouldn't use it on everything.

But it's all in how you, how you use it in application. Right. So, and I think, you know, I think that message got through. I think that is loud and clear, but I think, you know, again, it's, it's a, it's the education piece that we need to make sure happens there. And it sounded like Ryan and Zach were both very much on that page. So hopefully, you know, that, that, that, uh, that we continue to push the education piece of technology because, you know, a bunch of idiots using technology is never good. Yeah, exactly. Well, and, and, you know, I've, I've kind of gone to some different, um, you know, I've kind of gone to some different, you know, had some different ideas on how to improve my UV exposure for some of my animals, especially the diurnal lizards, you know.

But I have noticed like a lot of my agurnia, they're not out basking all day. You know, they're out for maybe a short amount of time in the morning. So I'm setting up video cameras so I can kind of track and record when they're out basking and how long they're out. And so then maybe I can set up the UV lights to come on for a certain amount of time, give them some exposure. And then, you know, if they don't like basking with the UV, they can come out at a different time and get, you know, the, the, just the normal lamp or whatever. And so, you know, they have that choice and they can escape it if they need to. So, you know, that's, I guess that's the challenge is with the technologies we have, we have to find ways to, you know, give the animals the choice or the exposure.

You don't want to just have a big UV light over the top of your cage, turn it on for eight hours a day and say, okay, I'm good. I'm using UV. You know, that's not the way. Yeah. And nobody's, nobody's, nobody's set up surf set it and forget it. You know what I mean? You need to be checking in on your, you know, on your timers and on your, you know, on your animals and your bulbs and track, track when you put your bulbs in, track when you pull your bulbs out, because I don't care what you're talking about. There is degradation in all bulbs and, you know, it, you know, is it, is, is efficiency, is efficiency and longevity, uh, uh, an engineering

factor in these, in these bulb creations a hundred percent, but you know, um, at a certain level, you just got to pay to play. And so, um,. And so changing your bulb every year or two years or whatever, that may be necessary. It may just be unavoidable because technology is only so good. We cannot create things that last forever. And I'm going to invest in a UVvometer the or the what are they called the the um i asked i asked zach i said you know what should i what should i be using to monitor and he said i you know suggested investing in uh in one of the um uv meters um that you can get on

amazon you know for a couple hundred bucks or whatever. And, and I think, you know, I'm, I'm, that's, that's the direction I'm moving in, you know, so I can monitor the output and, and kind of figure out which, which kind of, oh, I, I got a bunch of advice from Ryan, uh, as well. Um, and, uh, um, Ryan Dumas. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, he, he was very helpful and spent quite a bit of time kind of telling me what bulbs they use and how they use them and their applications and that kind of thing. So yeah, very, very helpful. Um, so yeah, talk to as many people as you can. If you're, if you're looking at moving into different areas or, you know, utilizing UV and getting different

insights and input. Don't just listen to one podcast and go, okay, now I know everything. I'm just going to move forward with it. You know, we need to do things. Well, I think everybody needs to be a discerning consumer of information, right? And if you get all your information from one spot, all right, that sounds good to me. I take that. You're doing it wrong.

You're setting yourself up is what I think. I agree. I have been well served by getting the things I listen to across a wide path of people and informational sources.

I think that's probably the best way is to, you know, cast a wide net. Yeah. And in your knowledge, you know, you gain from working with plants, that's, you know, very useful and can help you kind of say, okay, well, how is that similar? How's that different to reptiles? And how can I implement the things that I learned, you know, working with my plants into keeping my reptiles? So, yeah, any knowledge can help you advance if you use it appropriately. So keep learning.

Keep developing your ideas. UV for plants is a bad thing, right? a reaction which actually works towards the plant's immune system where it spools up repair and and creates metabolites that actually work to help the plant you know uh repair itself and and um you know so it's so it's it's you know it's not the same thing but but at the same time like that's kind of the point right like well i mean uv in plants works differently than UV in animals does, right? And you have to, you have to, you have to articulate that. Otherwise you just missed the whole point. Exactly. I mean, if you just went and assumed, oh, I know UV in plants, so I know UV, or I know lighting in plants, so I know lighting in reptiles. Yeah. You're dead wrong, but yeah.

So that's, yeah, it's definitely um not everything is is you know just applicable across the board you got to consider the the situation you're in and also um you know like different when we talk uv uv is a complicated issue it's not just certain i mean there's uva uvb uvc uvc is dangerous if you have too much uvc you're you're doing your animals a disservice and and if you've got just certain wavelengths like like animals use different wavelengths for different purposes and so you know there might be a you know they might be exposed to some uvc and they might have that be beneficial to them and but it's the balance and it's the duration and it's the choice they can go down a burrow and get escape that you know you've got to give the animal a choice to get out of the uv it sometimes as well

and and you know i don't necessarily know that animals can sit there and you know they're not they're not uh they may be able to see certain wavelengths but they don't they're not spectrometers right they don't they you know they they understand what they're but but you know they may not be able to see it nanometer for nanometer right so if in your manufacturing process you have a problem where you should be producing you know uva but you're through a defect in your manufacturing process, you're producing UVC. Yeah. How do you figure that out?

The only person who really has the tools to figure that out is the manufacturer who's making that, right? Because the customer is going to stick a UV meter under that and be like, all right, well, I'm getting this much discharge, so I'm still good. They don't know what that nanometer discharge looks like, but they know that it hasn't lost 30% of its initial value. Oh, yeah. And we know that manufacturers make mistakes and make changes

based on their bottom line in a lot of ways. And so I had an example of a falcon breeder that was purchasing their quail or something from a big commercial breeder. And the commercial breeder changed, or it wasn't even the commercial breeder of the quail. It was the quail food manufacturer changed one component. And then downstream, it affected the reproductive viability of the falcons. And so they had to trace that back and say what's going on what changed what's different and then they identified the problem and they

had the quail food manufacturer correct that issue and it corrected the issue in the falcon so some of these things are not simple and not easy to track down and both the the quail breeder and the falcon breeder both lost revenue because of a change at the feed lot. So we could be having issues that may be not even related to UV. Maybe it's the feed that our rodents are getting that are causing issues. And so these things are very complex and very difficult to track down. So consider a lot of different things. That's, you know, that's the, nothing's very simple. And you need to work it out and think it out and make, you know, best decisions by what you learn.

Yeah. Well. Well, this is, yeah, I like the idea of kind of revisiting some of these topics and filling in maybe some of the gaps or discussing some further issues that have come up in our little heads here as we think about these topics. If you've got any insights that you'd like to share with us, feel free to share those through the Facebook page or get in contact with us individually. Happy to hear any feedback. And we appreciate those who have given us feedback in the past and hopefully we've covered, I need to be better about writing those things down so we can discuss them in

these, um, revisited shows. But yeah, hopefully this was a educational and useful to you and you enjoyed it. Um, uh, revisiting these topics. Um, thanks. So do you, do you remember when we were saying that we only had two listeners? So I was telling my daughters, like, yeah, Justin and I were joking that we only had two listeners. And, and my daughter, Sophia is like, Hey, I follow your podcast. That means I'm one listener. And then my other daughter, Maya is like, yeah, I follow too. So where are your two listeners? I just thought that was the funniest thing, dude.

Yeah. So. That's great. At least you know your audience now. There's some quality listeners for sure. No, no doubt. No doubt. And we love you guys.

Yep. Yep. All right. Yeah. My kids were talking about listening to one of the episodes. They were discussing some of the topics that were brought up or asked some pretty interesting questions, so that was fun. I like that, man. That's awesome. My youngest daughter, Summer, she's getting into reptiles a bit more.

She wanted a snake, and so I said, well, I've got a few holdbacks. You can choose one of those to be your snake, and you can take care of it and get it out and hold it and things like that. So she chose a Woma and a Western Stimson. She couldn't decide on one. Nice. Got both of them. So, yeah. But she's starting to take some pictures of animals.

So hopefully I'll get her to sell my animals for me. That'll be best of both worlds. Man, if you can get an in house marketing and sales associate you're kicking dude that's my I hate having to sell animals but I sure like keeping

them and reproducing them exactly cool well thanks for our listeners both you guys. Yeah. And keep listening, and yeah, we appreciate it. So yeah, thanks for listening, and we'll be back next week with another episode.

Bye. Fight Club. Thank you.