Reptile Fight Club - To catch or not to catch, that is the RFC question!

Episode Date: March 18, 2023

Justin and Chuck tackle the most controversial topics in herpetoculture. The co-hosts or guests take one side of the issue and try to hold their own in a no-holds-barred contest of intellect. Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the question To catch or not to catch; that is the RFC question!      Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

🎵 So to wrap it up, Fight Club! Ready to fight? I know I am. I'm Justin. With me here is Chuck. We're going to fight. What's all about?

Fight me. What's going on? Fight me. I don't know. I'm ready. I'm ready. Ready? I came prepared for something.

You came prepared for this one? All right. For something. No, I came prepared for something. I don't know if I'm ready for this one We'll see That works Got a prelay shed From my black headed python

What the heck That's exciting Countdown the days now They look like pretty big eggs in there Fingers crossed for you, dude. Thanks, man. I think I'm getting it down a little better these days, so hopefully the incubation will go well and figure it out.

I'm going to try a couple things. Like cutting the eggs early? Yeah, yeah. I'm going to cut all of them all at once All of them very early No I'm going to try a larger incubation container Venting or no venting?

I don't think I'm going to vent Maybe once a week I'll open it up Pop the top and do the air exchange. Yeah. I like to use the Barker method. I don't know if it's the Barker method, if they originated. But they have, like, the styrofoam boxes with, like, not a box, but, like, you know, a styrofoam container with a sheet of painted glass across the top of it.

Or, you know, that's kind of what they use for their incubation. And I think Jordan was telling me that's the way he incubates his black headed eggs. And is that, is that like, like when you, I don't know if you don't, you don't buy frozen rodents, but usually when you, when, so when I buy frozen rodents from what they're shaking, they come in like the styrofoam, like, you know, cool, like,

uh, cool boxes. Yeah. You just kind of, and then you just half it and put a piece of glass over the top of it. Cool. I need to see if I can find one that'll fit nicely in the incubator, you know,

so I don't have to, you know, fine. I don't know. It's like, what do you do? Yeah. I,

what do you do? Yeah. I would like a bigger incubator Like a walk-in would be nice Like some of these guys have But I don't think I'd ever make a use of a walk-in incubator It's just too much space I don't need that much space I did see there were some new incubators

Being advertised at one of the Shows Who was it Mike Wilbanks I think was making incubators now. They look pretty sweet. It's cool. What do you call them? Some kind of, I can look it up real quick.

But, yeah, they looked pretty nice. They were a little out of my price range, I think. Plastic or metal? They looked plastic. Yeah. But they looked like they were designed for reptiles. He has a bunch of different sizes. He calls them Wilbanks

homeostatic incubators. And I haven't used this product, so I'm not necessarily endorsing it, but I just thought it was interesting. Interesting. He's got some that'll hold a couple clutches all the way up to, like, more clutches. Yeah, all right. I think the smallest one holds five ball python clutches, and the largest one holds 64 ball python clutches.

Holy shit. Yeah. That's a big incubator. ball python clutches and the largest one holds 64 ball python holy shit that's a big incubator it's like I guess it doesn't say the size on the um the size anyway I don't know why we're doing brought to you by

Wilbur's homeostatic power lifting gloves. Yeah. Mutton's Choice. That was great to get that endorsement from Mutton's Choice. I've been going for that for a while.

Yeah, no, I didn't even know that he was putting out sponsorships. It was a pleasant surprise. Thank you. Thank you. Have you ever heard the word homeostatic? Do you know what that

means? Homeostatic? Yeah, like homeostasis. Yeah, homeostasis, but what is he homeostaticing? The temperature, the humidity, I guess, everything? Yeah. Homeostatic. Isn't that what all incubators do well within it says it heats or cools depending on external factors

it says it maintains set temperature without regard to the external temperatures then in the next sentence it says depending on external factors so yeah is it independent or without regard or with regard so my guess is that it probably pulls air from the outside to cool but if you outside is hotter than inside then you might have that's what i want you might have some issues if he has a cooling mechanism in there then maybe that price would be not too bad. I guess that would be like a wine cooler or something, don't they? Yeah, I mean, that's like a whole, I mean, you got to have a condenser. And I mean, that's a.

But they kind of look like those, like a Pepsi fridge type thing, you know. Yeah. Metal with the glass door. but it looks like the whole glass door opens you know all at once so that's sweet i don't know interesting yeah they look pretty sweet though i wouldn't mind having one of my reptiles i still like ed bradley's he has like a 50s style 40s style fridge it's like immaculate condition that he breeds, that he bred condors in, which is just like, it's cool. Yeah.

Yeah. I've got an old freezer that we pulled out of the lab that I converted into a nice, nice works out pretty well. The tank, the 64 ball Python clutches incubator is four grand. So cool. Cool. I guess if you're incubating... You've got 64 ball python clutches,

you can afford the $4,000, right? You would think. I've heard the ball python market is not doing as hot as it was. Maybe 64 clutches is a lot of problems right now. I don't know how we got on that topic. Yeah, no, you totally got us on that. Oh, incubators.

Yeah. That's what I did. You, yeah. So I got to plug in my incubator, get it ready for those eggs. I want to get like the container all ready to go. I'm hoping she's not going to lay while I'm gone, but it might fall. Oh my God. While I'm out of town again.

But I've got Summer. She was the reason that it worked last year. She was there to collect the eggs, and she was there when they hatched, too. So, like, I was gone on two separate trips for both those events. So, Summer is definitely my little herb helper. But she's kind of slowed down. She's getting into those teenage years where she's other interests. You know, it's like she did come out a couple weeks ago,

but she's been a little farce when it comes time to going out there. But I think she's a teenager strategy. Yeah, we've got the reptile show coming up in Salt Lake. So she's going to help me with that. And that's like the weekend after I get back from France. So see how that goes. But yep. Well, yeah.

So what else is going on? I know I've got a couple other snakes that are pretty far along. Gravid wise, they look like they're going to lay fairly soon. So we'll see. My reptile room is starting to heat up a little bit with those additional cages I've got in there. So we'll see if spring has sprung in my reptile room, and we'll see if stuff starts laying. It's interesting that those blackheads go pretty early. I thought they were going early until Lucas got Woma clutches a couple weeks ago.

So he's definitely ahead of me. I think it's kind of nice, though, because if you can get those early clutches, it gives you kind of an advantage. You've got time to get them feeding and all that good stuff. And then, not that it's hard with womas, but with blackheads, it's very difficult. So, yeah. So we'll see how that works out for him. He'll be sold out by the time anybody else hatches any. He's got some pretty nice.

He probably shouldn't have any trouble getting rid of his. Yeah, right. He's a womanizer. But, I mean, if he's going to follow that, you know, Alan Rapashi, you know, he needs to hold some of those back and diversify and expand and have a bunch of different. Maybe not Burt the whole thing, but. There you go. There you go. There you go.

All right. Well, today we're talking about grabbing or not grabbing. Whoa. Keep your damn hands off her, Biff. Biff. All right. So let's see. You want to take the Biff approach or the...

You are my density. What's his name? Marty. Marty McFly. Well, no, his dad. What's his dad's name? Oh. Marty McFly's dad.

Because he's the one telling Biff to get his hands off him. Yeah, yeah. Oh, come on. George. George McFly. George McFly. George, how did I not? Yeah.

How did I forget that? Good thing you're here, man. I just want to lose my. I don't know. I mean, I. My brain doesn't function. You're half of my brain, apparently. All right.

I don't know if that's a ringing compliment. We're struggling. We're doing the best we can. George McFly. It's facts. No, I'm just kidding. All right. So, yeah, we're going to talk about when you're out herping,

should you grab them and, you know, take a wanker shot and, you know, manipulate them or just kind of observe them from afar and let them kind of do their thing, maybe witness some natural history. From a distance. There we go. Let's fight, huh? Are we flipping?

I'm flipping. You ready to call? Tails. It's heads. Whoa. Oh, my goodness. That's two weeks in a row. I'm on a streak here.

I think it's longer than that here Did you beat me before that? I think you might have won the last one So you won the last one And I think you might have won the one before that Yeah Because you fought Our last guest Didn't you? Mm-hmm

You fought Eric? our last guest, didn't you? Mm-hmm. You fought Eric or... Yeah, right? Eric Somerset? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Because I fought Mitchell. Yeah. Okay.

That's right. That's right. Guess it's only a two-week streak. Yeah, well... I'll be okay with that. Did we I think I won the hydration one too Oh yeah yeah

That's what it was I don't know what's happening anymore Stimility setting in Well I won that's all that's important That's true Okay so I'm going to take the not grab attitude this time around. So I got to take the grabby, the grabby hands.

You're Biff in this one. I'm George. I'm going to smack you around if you don't get your grabby hands off those herbs. Okay. Well, lead us out. Think McFly. Think. I'm going the check route and letting you take the leads.

What are you looking at, butthead? That's a good one. That's a good one. If you haven't seen Back to the Future, all you young whippersnappers out there, that's a classic. That's a good one if you haven't seen back to the future all you young whippersnappers out there right you gotta that's a classic that's a fun definitely definitely started it started people actually wanting to buy toyota trucks yeah though he what uh what's the what's mart Marty's real name? Michael J. Fox. Michael J. Fox. He was in Teen Wolf, right? Yeah, that's true.

And Teen Wolf 2, TOO, was on TV the other night. I watched part of it. It's like the exact same movie, just with Jason Bateman instead of Michael J. Fox. It's like, why did they think this was a good idea and this was going to go over well? Everybody saw right through it, I guarantee. Like, okay, it's the same story, different guy, kind of stupid.

I feel like that's what we're doing these days. We're just like, you know, we can't come up with an original. There's never going to be another archetypal like an Indiana Jones or Rambo. Everything's a remake these days, it seems. Nobody wants to take a risk on original thoughts.

I mean, there's a few here and there. Well, it's all in smaller production companies where they're like Netflix. They're the streaming services. Yeah. And I feel like, I even feel like in, even in like Netflix and, you know, Amazon Prime and all those productions, like they run them for like one or two seasons and then they cancel them. And it's like. There's no like was just getting into this yeah i was kind of like okay i kind of wanted to see how this was going to go but they're always canceling them and i'm just like yeah i'm kind of like it's hard for me to

want to invest like i'm a binge you know i'm a bingey kind of person so but it's hard for me to want to invest and you know now they're starting to get now they're starting to like uh not not give you the whole season in one shot. So they're like, we're going to tease this out, which is probably good for them. Yeah. Did you check out the new Mandalorian yet? I guess that's out. Not yet.

I'm kind of behind on the Star Wars shows. My family doesn't watch them with me, so it's like i have to monopolize the tv and yeah and listen to them whine so i'm just like it's easier just to i like the mandolin they did good with that and i even i didn't i didn't hate uh and or um i you know i just i i haven't seen that one yeah that's i heard somebody say that by all these spinoff shows that they're ruining the mystery of star wars looting it out yeah which i could totally i guess i totally see that as you know as the kid who saw empire strikes back in the theaters like i like all the other details and you know because they've had all those books and stuff you know yeah and i also think some people underestimate the nerdism that's out there when it

comes to stuff like that. Like, so fair, you know, I started watching that Lord of the Rings spin off to, or the, Oh, the rings of power,

rings of power. I watched like the first, it was kind of slow episode anyway. So I was like, Oh, I don't know. This is kind of slow, but it was well done. Yeah.

We started a new – this is way off topic, but we started – you're just delaying, aren't you, the start? But we started watching a pretty funny show on Apple. It was – now I can't even think of it. Therapized or something like that. It's got Jason Segel and Harrison Ford. Really? That's really good. Harrison Ford in a funny role?

He's pretty good. He's pretty humorous, but Jason Segel's likable. I don't know. I like him. I just feel like every time I've seen Harrison Ford in like real life, he's just like, seems like he's such a grumpy bastard. Oh yeah. That's, that's what he plays in this. That's what he plays. Oh man. So perfect. Yeah.

But he's funny, you know, he's pretty good at this. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. All right. No more. So he does get off my show. Yeah. Come on. Let's get this going. what are you looking at butthead you want that wax i got your i got your truck smarty we're gonna turn you into the nice biff after this one no i don't think so i don't think so just don't crash me into the truck full of horse manure. Yeah. Okay, so I am

grabastic. Yeah, I'm grabby. All right. So am I as to assume that I am leading this out as well? Yeah. I thought I made that clear. I don't know

that me and the audience caught that. Yeah. I thought I made that clear. I don't know that the audience caught that. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I, I it's, it's, Oh, there it is. There it is. There's sweet lady DDP. I'm ready. I'm prepared. All right. Um, uh, yeah. So I mean, I guess I will preface my lead out by saying it sort of depends on where you're herping and what you're herping for. Because I think that there's some, you know, there's some reptiles. Yeah, you do not want to be crabby when you're when you're hunting crocs in Florida or, you know, when you're when you're. Oh, another tangent. When you're hunting crocs in Florida or, you know, when you're when you're.

Oh, another tangent. Oh, did you see that somebody got eaten by a crocodile? They they hung up their towel on a no swimming warning crocodiles here sign and they got bit. Right. So, you know, of course, they had to destroy the crocodile because some moron couldn't read a sign that he put his towel on. Well, how is he supposed to read the sign with the towel on there, dude? He covered up the warning. It's not his fault. Stupid people. The crocodile ate him and was like, what are you looking at?

And why do why do why do we feel the need to go kill the crocodile? Like the dude deserved it, frankly. I mean, if you're going to ignore a warning sign, if you go and electrocute yourself on a fence that says high voltage danger, you know, then all of a sudden your family comes and says, we're going to sue you because our person died on your fence. I mean, I guess my thing is like, okay, you know, if... Okay, anyway, tangent over.

I'm just saying like, you know, if we could actually prove that now the crocodile craves human flesh like a fucking zombie or something And you'll never keep it away from populations. It'll be just running through the street, eating children. And yeah, like if that was something that was of concern, you know, okay, I get that. But I mean, clearly that crocodile was down to eat anything that would throw a towel over a sign that said, you know, be careful, right? Like, I mean, we just need, we need to let, I mean, that, that helps the gene pool. I think if you're going to eat somebody who's going to now saying that, I guess me and Rico

and a couple others swim and Alan Rapashi, we were swimming in a little Creek where it had a warning crocodile sign, but the water was very clear. We can see, you know, it was crocodile sign, but the water was very clear. We can see, you know, it was pretty shallow, but I don't know. I, I didn't stay in very long,

but I also feel like, but I also feel like you knowingly saw the sign and you made a conscious choice as informed consumers of women area. But if we would have gotten eaten would we have called for that crocodile to be killed be fair maybe that guy was like yeah he's scared of no crocodile threw his fucking towel over that shit and he's like i'm going swimming and he made a bad decision right like so you know i mean but the crocodile you can't pay for that come on a life like if you go into the water and you get bit by a shark like yeah you know why sharks don't come on land

because people kill them when they do right like that you know what i mean like okay i get it land but i'm just saying when you go into another apex predator's territory and you have a negative outcome, why would you be shocked about that? Why would you try to take it out on the animal? I don't know. It goes back to our pioneer roots where we have to get rid of all the big predators that can hurt us. And then all of a sudden the prey explosion occurs and you got deer dying because there's no cougars to eat them or something. Cougars.

Cougars. All right. No more stalling. Grab away. Keep grabbing. Oh, so I was just saying that I think grabbing is fantastic unless it's a rattlesnake and it'll bite you or a crocodile that'll bite you or. Hey, no, that guy that I saw down in Ocotillo, he was holding that sidewinder.

Yeah, and I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea. Real men of genius, you know. Real men of genius. And he got bit and now they went down to destroy all the sidewinders yeah and and so i was listening to um phil and and nipper um and and you know nipper unfortunately had a an unfortunate run-in incident with yep and and uh they you know phil was just kind of running down some of the costs um i mean i knew it it was a lot, but not in England.

I mean, they have. Right. Well, yeah. I mean, we can't all be as great as Nipper and have socialized. You don't want to get bit here. It's going to be have burritos. That's what we got. We got burritos.

And that's why he's like, fuck burritos. I'll take socialized medicine because he did not get stuck with a giant vet. But which is amazing and i actually think socialized we socialize all kinds of things uh in this country like um you know the va is socialized so um nobody's complaining that vets shouldn't get socialized va medicine anyway i digress um so yeah i mean i just think like with the cost involved and the potential for, you know, permanent damage and it's just not, you know, handling. So arguing my point. Well, yes, I'm prefacing. Stop. I'm not arguing. I'm prefacing that. There's a, we need a distinction there. So, you know, but other than that, like, you know, a lot of animals don't sit still. Uh, they're going to run for it. And, and, you know, if you know what you're grabbing and you're, you're, you're, uh, you're coach whippy fast. Um, you know, I, I say go for it because, um, you know, I, I think as long as you're not hurting the animal, a wanker shot never killed anybody. You know, it may be.

Well, OK, I shouldn't say that. I'm sure wanker shots have killed people before. That is to say that I don't, you know, other than, you know, it kind of you being like the prototypical human who's to grab nature and take a picture of it and post it on Instagram, blah, blah, blah. But, I mean, I don't know. I enjoy looking at your photos, and you had to wanker shot those things, and, you know, that's kind of how we document our experiences and we interact with things, and that's part of, you know, that's kind of how we document our experiences and we interact with things. And that's part of, you know, that's part of herping.

That's part of going out, having that experience with that animal, setting it down and letting it go on its way. Right. So, you know, and I think there's nothing wrong with that. And you should have that that experience. I just think that there's you know you've got to you got to know your customer right like i i don't think that i don't think that uh that rattlesnake we found that morning in uh in in the desert uh in the high high desertish area uh and was that well well, were we in New Mexico or was that Arizona? New Mexico was the area.

I think that was technically New Mexico. We were borderline somewhere. But that thing was big and it was pissed. Yeah. It kept wanting to go under the car. Oh, my God. And it was a handful on a hook like that. I mean, you know, and if that thing had bit one of us, oh, forget it, dude.

Like that would have been game over, man. Game over. It would have been a rough ride to the hospital two hours away. I couldn't imagine. And so I think, you know, responsibly speaking, you just it's not worth screwing around with. And, you know, you listen to Nipper. And if you guys haven't listened to that episode, listen to it. I think it's the most recent Venom exchange radio.

It was a great episode. Nipper did a really good job. I'm really sorry to hear that happened to him. But, you know, Nipper's not a reckless guy. He's not a willy nilly dude. And, you know, he made a mistake and, you know, he recognized it. And thank God he's OK. But, you know, it can happen. So, you know, if you don't know what you're grabbing don't grab it if you if you if you don't you know like i would not i would be extremely nervous in australia grabbing some snakes because they've got a lot of different

elapids there and i i don't know i you know i don't know all of them so it's like well we were up in the iron range and and uh night herping kind of looking for green tree pythons, you know, along the... There was an area where juveniles were purported to hang out because it was kind of on the forest edge. We were walking along and I saw this dark snake and it was like kind of slithered past me. And I was like, my first instinct was to try to grab it. And I'm like, wait a second. I'm not... You know, it doesn't have a rattle. It must be safe, but I'm not in Utah.

Yeah. And that's, yeah, exactly. Yeah. That could end up poorly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so, you know, I think, I think knowing your, you know, you got to know your customers. Yeah, for sure. Anyway, that's, that's probably how I'd start. It's just my prefacing, my obvious prefacing. Well, let's move on to a more enlightened state. So, you know, once you've grabbed everything, got your selfie,

get your likes on Facebook and Instagram, once you're beyond that and you're just herping to enjoy the reptiles rather than get famous, you know. This is the Buddhist shit right now. Yeah. Says the guy who posts all this stuff on, all this herping stuff on Facebook and Instagram. But, you know, I think there can definitely be some benefits to observation. Now, we're not the most patient people, especially when you're paying a lot of money to go to a different state or

country to look for reptiles. You're going to want to get a picture of them. You're going to want to interact. Maybe this is more for like if you're herping local, you're seeing stuff that maybe you've seen quite a bit and you know where to find them it's not hard to find you know you go to their spot where where you're guaranteed to find a big chuck wall you know go watch the chuck and uh you uh take a pair of binoculars you sit down in the shade of a big rock and you watch the chuck wall and just

watch i'm just prefacing i feel like you're you're really whittling now you're you've got your knife you're whittling this argument yeah this is this is a well-crafted argument i see that but uh you know you're gonna see it's it's natural behaviors you know un un in in unobscured what's the word un un-molested by a human, you know, see what it does when it's just hanging out. Now, you know, we, there, there's probably some that are lend themselves to this kind of thing more than others, but like I was listening, what was I listening to? Oh, it was, it was that, uh, Kluberids and Kluberoid radio where they were talking with, uh, Connor Wardle. Um, and he was, they were talking about watching some kind of coach whip or, uh, and it was hunting, right. It was following something.

And so they just sat back and watched this thing and it would come and periscope and look for, you know, it's lizard prey. And then it would try to chase it down and the lizard would run out in front of it and he'd have to stop and look around. But they got to watch it like periscope and, you know, chase down the lizard. And, you know, I don't think that's kind of where our knowledge base comes from, right, is people making observations. Now, we were hiking through, you know, the Utah desert and we saw, I came around a you know, like around a bush or something. And there was this, uh, leopard lizard perched up on top of a cactus

and we scared like some small whip tail or something. And it ran past the collared and the collared lizard was full on going to jump down and grab that lizard and probably choke it down. You know, they can eat pretty good sized lizards so um but we kept walking and before we realized what was going on but we disturbed and then he saw us and he stopped and ran the other way so we didn't get to see that natural history event but you know he was going for that lizard that we spooked you know so um i think if you kind of can set up, especially with lizards, you know, if you cause the start of the interaction and you ruin the interaction,

doesn't that like, isn't that like a cancel it out? Yeah. Yeah. That one's canceled. But I mean, if, if we could have like, you know, set up a blind or something and watch that leopard lizard, you know, hunt, that would be kind of cool. And just, you know, maybe see him catch a meal or something, you know, snakes. Yeah. They're not as maybe, you know, with some exceptions, like, you know, the coach coach whip example is, is maybe something you could observe and watch a coach whip from a distance, you know, um, follow him and see what he does and see what he's hunting and things like that. That would be kind of cool. But I think, you know, the naturalist side of me wants to go out and observe what they're doing.

Now the impatient side of me says, I want to picture that coach whip. I want to, you know, I want to see it up close. So I'm going to grab it and hold onto it and put it next to the tree so we can get some in situ photos, you and put it next to the tree so we can get some in situ photos, you know, of it in the tree that we found it in or whatever. And, uh, you know, I think sometimes that impatient part of us, um, wins out, but I don't know. Another example, I think of, of just sitting back and watching natural behaviors. We were walking through a gorge in, in the Pilbara in Western Australia. And my wife and I, we were actually having an argument because she didn't want me going into the gorge at night by myself and leaving her, you know, at the car or whatever. And so I was like, I'd be fine. She's like, no, it's too

dangerous. You can't do that. You can't tell me what tire tell me what to do yeah exactly and so and so uh and then we come around kind of this little rock ledge and there's a uh varanus hammersley ensis the southern pilgrim rock monitor right cruising along a rock and i'm like oh time out we can finish this later i'm gonna you know i i need to see this you know and there's very and not a very great chance you're gonna catch that lizard they're agile like they just climb up the rocks like nothing although steve did get hands on one not you know that's probably not the best thing to put out there because i think it's technically illegal to grab so i didn't say that we don't know which steve we're talking yeah so anyway uh you know i just sat and watched this thing i mean it was it was hunting i saw it

catch a spider and you know gulp down a spider i think i even videoed it so i was videoing while it was doing its daily routine you know crawling around on the rocks, hunting, and then it would stop and bask. And so I got all this behavior on camera, you know, so that's maybe one way we can kind of have that interaction without getting hands on the animal is just sitting back and kind of documenting, you know, nature documentary style, watching their behaviors. I think that can lead to just as rewarding an interaction where you're not disturbing the animal and their behaviors. Now, granted, this was in a well-traveled, you know, gorge where a lot of people go and it probably is used to people walking back and forth past its house, you know, and so

it may not have been as wary as other populations of the same lizard, you know. So maybe in places like that, you know, in parks in Australia, you can watch the water dragons get pretty close to them, whereas in the bush, they're just going to take off and dive into the water, you know. Right. Sometimes those places might lend themselves to that kind of thing, being able to see their behavior where they don't see you and just freeze and hide. You know, so I don't know.

I think that's really rewarding. And then you get to see what it's what it's daily routine entails. And you can kind of get to know the animal. Yeah. If you grab it, what's you know what? It's over. You know, that kind of thing is over. It's just going to dart for the closest point of security where it's going to wedge itself until all the danger is gone.

But you do grab those things to document them on some of your herb trips, right? You do do that. And going on herb trips and sharing what you found with other people is part of that experience, right? Sure, yeah. So, you know, there's an unequivocal coupling of both wanker handling and, you know, letting the animal do its thing yeah so you know i mean i i i you know i i definitely understand that you know you give the animal its distance you let it do its natural behaviors maybe photograph it from a distance or video it from a distance but you know once that animal realizes

you're there aren't you affecting the natural behaviors of that animal? Could be. Potentially. Or maybe not. Maybe you being a predator there, the animal's doing exactly what it should be doing, is being wary of the food monkey, right? And that, you know, this video camera I had had a pretty good zoom on it. Like, it was like 100x zoom.

So you could be pretty far away. That's like a zoom, zoom, zoom and a pretty good zoom on it. Like it was like a hundred X zoom. So you could be pretty far away. Zoom in a zoom zoom. Yeah. And it wasn't, you know, too expensive. It was like a little Canon handheld, you know, not the necessarily like the 4k quality or anything back then,

but it was good enough. You know, the, the YouTube video I put up of the rock monitors of Australia or whatever, um, that was taken using that camera, you know? And so, um, I got some pretty good footage of, of the lizards kind of doing natural, naturalistic things. So, but yeah, I mean, I, I, I wasn't completely sure that my presence there wasn't

affecting their behavior in some way, but you know, if you can kind of hang back and video from a distance, uh, you're probably going to have much less chance of disturbing their natural behavior than you are. If you're getting hands on them. Oh, excuse me.

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I get that's, you know, sure.

I just, I think, you know, likely you're probably going to try and do both right i mean you're you're gonna try to let honestly the thing and you're gonna try to pick them up and get some shots and and i think it you know i think it depends on who you're with too because you know um one of our members of the trip really wanted to grab everything, right? So he was catching everything we saw. And actually posting, like, those pictures of him holding the animals, or at least, you know, those close-ups were, you know, on Facebook.

And that kind of may have led to us getting searched and things like that. So, you know, there's other repercussions for, for handling things and doing that. But, um, you know, it, it's, uh, it's definitely, uh, a way we interact with the animals. And he just said, I don't know what it is. I just feel like I need to, you know, get it in hand and inspect it closer. And, you know, you can see kind of details and things. And so, you know, that's not the, not the worst thing. And, you know, you can see kind of details and things. And so, you know, that's not the worst thing. And, you know, as long as you're not hurting the animal, they're probably just fine to be manhandled a bit. But as long as you don't go the Biff, you know, level. Yeah, you don't want to be in the parking lot at the Enchantment Under the Sea dance.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That is not Earth Angel. That's right. You'll get a punch. You'll get socked in Earth Angel. That's right. You'll get a punch. You'll get socked in the mouth. That's right.

George doesn't fuck around when it comes to that kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do think that some, you know, even though we got up close and personal with one of the Hammers Leansis monitors that we, that we saw, we saw, I think I've seen a total of three of those, of that species.

And, uh, the first one I saw, I, I just hung back video, recorded it doing its thing, you know, and then I climbed up kind of close to it to get,

you know, still photos. And, and, uh, and it didn't seem to phase by me because I didn't get within its danger zone or whatever its flight zone just kind of keeping an eye on you

and kind of hung out there and then if I would get too close it would move a little further away but he knew he could dust me on those rock faces there was no chance the one we got hands on we got nice close up photos but I still think I like some of the pictures that i got of the ones kind of in the natural setting um just kind of doing their thing and yeah and i think like sometimes you know i

mean i know certain times we've we've kind of found stuff and and where we kind of found it was not really a great place to take a photo of it. Right. Like, so, you know, as much as you're kind of like post photos, you know, it's kind of, you know, like you find something on the road. Is that what you want to, you want to photo of a road there or me, you know, one, you move it off. So it's not in the middle of the road. You get yourself out of the road, uh, watch out for those scary cars. And, and, you move it off so it's not in the middle of the road. Oh, yeah. You get yourself out of the road. Watch out for those scary cars. And, you know, maybe you can get a nice kind of natural backdrop when you're photographing the animal and do the animal service, you know, getting it out of roadkill danger.

Definitely. I think that's probably the best argument for getting stuff off the road, which is crazy because it's technically illegal in a few different spots. I believe Texas, you can't take things off the road. Texas likes to kill shit. They're like, nope, nope. You're not supposed to road cruise or manipulate animals that are on the road, which is insane to me. Like, get them off the road. But I guess that safety on the road, which is insane to me, like get them off the road. But I guess that, you know, safety issue or something, if you're out trying to get a snake

off the road, you might get hit by a big semi or something, but yeah, getting, getting things off the road is definitely a reason to, to handle or to, you know, manipulate the animal. Um, preferably, you know, using a hook of course with venomous species or something but and and obviously you know most a lot of reptiles like junkyards and hiding under artificial cover which like you said doesn't make for a great photo you know people want to see them in their natural habitat not in their you know people don't want to, yeah, they don't want the, the mental of, of wildlife living in their trash there. Exactly. Discards. Yeah. So we set up little, uh, you know, little spots near where we found them to kind of, and coax them into those

areas, you know, cause you know, there's, there's a lot of species here that are protected as well. And you're not supposed to be using a hook or trying to yeah trying to manipulate them in any way so obviously know the laws that's probably another reason not to handle is if it's illegal don't don't mess with the laws because um we heard a story from dustin that one of his one of the guys he knows down in arizona that does a lot of herping, was up looking for pricei, for the twin spot rattlesnakes. And during, they're, I mean, highly protected. You're not allowed to mess with those at all.

And you can't even get on the talus where there are a lot of them. Yeah, and this kid had tongs, and he grabbed the snake, and he held it up, and he said, I got a price. I and out of the bushes came a wildlife agent and slanted it a pretty big, hefty. Yeah, it was a big fine. So that's another reason, you know, know the laws and know which ones you're allowed to handle. If you're thinking about handling and keep your damn hands off the ones you're not allowed to. Yes, certainly that is a good reason not to have your hands up Lorraine's skirt

when the wildlife officer shows up because that's not good. It is not. I mean, and I think that's probably, you know, a really good point for you is, is if you don't handle it, you can't get fined. Yeah. You know, and, and, but at the same time, like, you know, you probably could see them. I could see a wild conservation officer, you know, being like, hey, what are you doing? Like, well, we're not touching it. Well, I don't care. You want to disturb, you know, I don't see you touching it.

But if you don't leave right now, I will just find you, you know. So so I do kind of feel like on one hand, like, yep, you're 100 percent right. You won't get that ticket if you're not touching the animal. But at the same time, you know, I don't think I don't think most conservation officers really, you know, really need to have you with the goods in your hands to kind of be like, get the heck out of here, you filthy kids. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if if they sense any kind of intent to collect or the heck out of here, you filthy kids. If they sense any kind of intent to collect, even if you had no interest in collecting

it, if you have tongs and a bag or things like that. They have very broad power. It's just you hear a lot of stories about game wardens that just didn't like it and seized all their shit. Yeah.

You know. I'm glad that one, the price I that you found, was happy enough to just kind of crawl and curl up by a rock and, you know, go down a little rock crack where we could photograph it without messing with it, you know. Yeah. That's hard to find, you know. For sure.

So we got pretty lucky. For sure. And the one that Steve found was basking on a rock, for crying out loud. It was in shed, so it probably couldn't see us coming very well. Yeah. So, you know, we definitely want to maintain and uphold the laws of the land and not handle if we're asked not to handle. But I know sometimes those laws are a little loose.

I know in Australia we handle a lot of things, even though it's technically illegal. And you see the Australians, you know, handling things that are technically illegal. And, you know, I don't think I've ever run into a patrol wildlife officer. I mean, how? I've gotten pulled over by Border Patrol a few times, but never like a wildlife agent. U.S. Border Patrol?

Yes. Okay. Like, really? That's weird. When you're cruising roads down by the border, he gets pulled over. No, yeah, I get that. I get that. You were talking about Australia, and I'm like, that's Australia.

We did get followed by a military helicopter in Australia. They were fucking with you. Oh, yeah. They were fucking with you. It scared us, too. Oh, yeah. Should we get out of the car? Are they going to gun us down?

Like, what's going on? Helicopter pilots love to do that shit. Yeah, it was pretty funny. Made for a good story, anyway. Oh, yeah, you're somebody's story, that's for sure. Yeah, we had a story to match, so that was all good. Yeah. So.

Yeah, I also like that story where we were cruising around in Western Australia again looking for stuff. And I saw this snake on the road doing, you know, looked weird like it was doing something strange. And so I stopped the car and I get out and I see this mulga and he's he's eating a death adder that's been road killed and stuck to the road, you know, and he's trying to peel this dead snake off the road to eat it. And, you know, I got out of the car and I'm all excited. I'm like, it's eating something. This is cool, you know. And so I'm taking pictures and trying to get some video of it and it gets spooked. And so it spits out, you know, spits it out and takes off. And I'm like, ah, crap. I felt kind of bad. So I got my hook and I put the death adder on the hook and walked over to where the mulga went and put the death adder in front of it

and it started eating it again. So I got to get some good pictures of it feeding. I actually put one of those in the book. Point for me. You know, sometimes disturbing them, Can, can lead to some cool stuff too. So not saying that, that, uh, disturbing an animal is always going to result in bad things, but, um, that was kind of a fun thing to witness and I wouldn't have witnessed it if I would have just let it, you know, go off on its own and, um, maybe it would have come back, but that's kind of

dangerous too, to try to eat something on the road with all the, maybe it would have come back, but that's kind of dangerous too, to try to eat something on the road with all the, you know, the mining trucks driving in and out of those, uh, back roads and in Western Australia. So I don't know. Um, another fun, fun thing was video recording, uh, shingleback skinks following each other in pairs and watching them just kind of cruise across the desert, you know, a female that was pretty fun to watch from a distance and you know if you get too close to them they do their whole defensive routine or take off for the nearest cover or whatever so um although seeing you know like a frilled lizard do its frill rather than sit on the side of a tree is a lot more fun for pictures, you know.

So I definitely, there's another point for you. You know, you get those kind of defensive postures are much more engaging than like their critic. And you don't necessarily have to pick the animal up to do that. That's true. I mean, but you do kind of disturb it enough to freak it out to frill up or yeah. Same with, I guess a rattlesnake, you know,

rattling and, and kind of making that defensive posture that they do so well. So, but you know, I think, uh, the more, more experiences,

the more you see them, the more experiences you can potentially gain. Sometimes you can get up close and maybe disturb them a little bit for closer pictures, and other times you can hang back and kind of observe them from afar and see what other behaviors they might show you. Yeah. Yeah. Any other good reasons you can think of to grab something?

I am running out of reasons to grab something. I guess if you're making a scientific study or something, you've got to. That's fair. Yeah, there you go. Measure them and maybe take a blood sample or a toe clipping. I needed a science brain. Yeah, I needed a science brain here. Stat sick.

Stat sick. It's hard to get a sample without picking them up or, you know, doing some kind of drift trap or something like that. Right. Right. Fair. All right. Oh, one other thing I thought of as a con to handling or grabbing stuff is disease transmission.

Oh, wow. Even going into the environment, you know, like chytrid was spread all over the world, you know, on boots. Unbeknownst to the scientists. That's one of the primary transmission methods. Interesting. Yeah. So they would be in an area where chytrid was found, and then they would wear the same boots on their trip to the Amazon or wherever they went.

And so local populations of amphibians declined after the introduction of chytrid. And it took decades to figure out what was going on and why they were disappearing. Wait a minute. People fucking things up? No way. Well, and this was a case where they weren't trying to. You know, they were trying to be responsible. Who would think to dip your boots in bleach to go look for amphibians, you know?

So that's a tricky one. Wash your dirty shoes, you nasty scientists. Get your damn boots off. Get your damn boots off her, Biff. Yeah, but that's been a sad thing.

They just wore those inflatable Nikes that he had in the second one. Maybe the Kittred thing would have been no issue. That's right. I forgot that. Very high-dollar shoe. second one, maybe the Kittred thing would have been no issue. That's right. That's right. I forgot that. Very, very high dollar shoe.

I mean, if the scientists had a better sneaker game, I think that's what we're saying. Or they just bought new boots wherever they went, you know? Yeah. Kind of a lesson we've learned from Kittred. What are you talking about? Well, and I mean, there are some other, you know, diseases out there that could be transmitted. If you're grabbing a snake in the wild and, and then you're grabbing another snake without, you know, disinfecting your hands, you could potentially spread something across or. I know Eric was talking about how, you know, with the next carpet fest, they're not, he's not going to do tours of his reptile room because every time they've had a carbon fest, he's gotten mites somehow, which is crazy. That boggles the mind,

doesn't it? That's people visiting that keep reptiles or transmitting mites with them to, to his, that is, uh, it's not, that is it. Uh,

so even in captivity, that is a wow of a statement. There's, yeah, there's certain times where you don't go Handling the snakes Yeah Disease transmission Think about it Right

Well have we exhausted our Arguments for this topic I'm spent This was a good one Spent Well we cancelled our Australia trip I'm spent. This was a good one. Spent. Well, we canceled our Australia trip. What?

I'm not going to Australia this summer to look for green tree pythons. The tickets were just not coming down in price. They were like double, triple what we're used to. So it's kind of rough. I'm curious to see how that impacts tourism. You know, you'd think there'd be some kind of incentive to keep the ticket prices a little bit. I don't know, man. I just feel like when we have inflationary things, like maybe prices relax a little. But like, you know, it was like when gasoline was like a couple, a dollar or two when I was a kid.

Like it never, ever came back down, you know, and never. It always goes up. And food gets, nothing ever gets, after prices go up, nothing ever really gets cheaper. So it's just like. Well, plane tickets fluctuate though. I mean, sometimes. That's fair. You can find deals sometimes, but yeah, it's hard when you're trying to plan a trip.

And so we just called it for this time or hopefully make it over in the fall or something. And you look at like Southwest Airlines, like all that debacle that they had with all those U.S. flights. And it's kind of like, are they going to lower their prices because now they need to update all this infrastructure stuff that they obviously were not you know they were yeah kind of neglecting doing yeah i mean so it's like i don't know i mean you know maybe that's just a weird example and it's not you know but i just i don't know man i it. It's very frustrating. And, you know, you want to go see the world and do things. We need this nuclear energy stuff to kick in so we can have nuclear planes. You know, it's really interesting that power and stuff like that for a lot of nuclear technologies really have taken a great leap

forward in safety and efficiency and and the you know the models we look at are the old like you know we look at the chernobyls and the three mile islands and and um i think if you know we we kind of looked at some of the newer um you know, and no energy production is without risk. And certainly nuclear has, you know, potential consequences that are a little bit higher. But, I mean, you know, with the new studies that are showing fusion is producing energy. Yeah, we'll see. I mean, it's. How nice would that be?

We'll see. Yeah. That's a. Yeah, we'll see. I mean, it's... How nice would that be? We'll see. Yeah. That's a... I mean, they're getting so much closer, but it's still... You need beaming technology. How nice would that be just to beam yourself to Australia? Oh, my gosh. Oh, go.

Yeah. I'm sure they'd find a way to charge through the roof for us. Oh, yeah. No shit. Yeah. Or you'd end up like space balls where your ass is backwards. I didn't know if you'd tell me that. I didn't know if you'd tell me my ass was this big.

A little bit. Good stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Another thing, another interesting thing, I guess, leading to the next segment of the show. interesting thing i guess leading to the next segment of the show any you know interesting things you've heard lately uh alex's reptiles on instagram is uh bringing back morelia python i yeah python.com so i guess the forums are going back i'm curious because i i said you know hey

i'll try to get on there but i yeah i'm just I'm just out of the habit of checking forums and posting on forums. And, dude, I'm not – I'm curious to see if it can be brought back. I'm not that guy anymore. I got two teenagers and hobbies and a mortgage and a job and dogs. As much as I would like to see that. And a reptile collection. Yeah.

It's going to be tough for me to spend the amount of time. Although, you know, I certainly am willing to make an honest effort about it. And but, you know, it's just one of those things where I kind of feel like, you know, the best magic happens magically. Organically. Yeah. So, you know, I hope. Trying to bring the rotary phone back or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, things move in cycles.

And certainly, maybe he's capitalizing at a good time where Facebook is no longer people's preferred. I'm on Instagram way more than I ever am on Facebook anymore. Hey, I hope so. If he could pull that hat trick, that would be amazing. Like I said, I'll give it a hat trick, that would be amazing. Yeah. Yeah, like I said, I'll give it a shot. For sure. For sure.

If I can get on there. Well, anything else? No. I mean, just, you know, as I said earlier in the podcast, I really, really enjoyed the the venom exchange radio episode with with phil and nipper and i again just i'm glad nipper's okay and uh just that was such as pictures of his yeah and so i just you know oh crap because he's coming over to utah in another yeah yeah yeah so and you know he's a fit dude and like you know like it's just you know

it's a not so subtle reminder to people that uh you know this this stuff is serious um so glad he's okay uh a great episode and you know i really like how those guys continue to push knowledge and really, you know, make a serious thing out of venomous keeping where we see so many people who. I don't want to say make it blah, blah, blah, but you you you watch how they free, you know, people who freehand or people who do things that are just, you know, like not giving the respect that these animals, you know, demand. Yeah. And I think, you know, so glad you're okay, Nipper. Sorry that happened, man. And a great, you know, a great documentation and, you know, discussion about that event, though, nonetheless. For sure.

All right. About that event though Nonetheless For sure Alright well This has been another episode We Thank Eric and Owen And the NPR crew For hosting our Little podcast here and letting us Fight on their Network and check

Them out at merleapythonsradio.com And we will Catch you again in another Week or maybe two We'll see I'm going to be out of town for a bit but It's just whenever we're back Again for another episode

It's the Libyans Run for it, Marty! Thank you. Outro Music Bye.