Reptile Fight Club - To DIY or not to DIY with Ron St Pierre

Episode Date: September 29, 2023

Justin and Chuck tackle the most controversial topics in herpetoculture. The co-hosts or guests take one side of the issue and try to hold their own in a no-holds-barred contest of intellect. Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the topic of To DIY or not to DIY with Ron St Pierre.Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

to another episode of reptile fight club Club. How's it going, people? My name's Justin Julander, in case you don't know. And here with me are a couple legends. Chuck, my co-host, what's up? What's up, sir? How are you doing? Doing great, yeah. We got Mr. Ron St. Pierre back on the podcast. Always great to have Ron. How you doing, man?

I'm good, man. Thanks for having me. Oh, yeah. It's our pleasure for sure. Yeah. Well, what's going on, guys? What's going on in the reptile world for you both? Ron, you want to take this one? Because it's not much for me. I guarantee you got cooler shit going on than me. It's not much for me either.

I'm just plucking around little side projects and a little emerald tree boa thing going on. Some condros. Yeah, just a little 60 animal, 80 animal. 61 emeralds. Yeah. About 20 condros and counting. Just fucking around with a little side project. I believe it was the verbiage, right? Yeah.

Pick up some Amazon tree boas and I don't know. I once again, I've lost my fucking mind. It jumped off a cliff. Well, they look cool. I mean, you got some pretty cliff animals to jump off of yeah no i'm actually i'm actually really digging i've been you know kind of bouncing around for years trying to find i actually have always wanted to do this i always intended to do the arboreal thing and it just for a variety of reasons never happened. Finally, I hit the point where I felt like I had, it's time to do it.

So I could see myself still doing this 20 years out, whereas anything else I've done over the last probably 20 or 30 years, I always just assumed I would do it for a few years and then move on to, you know, whatever the next thing, because my interests are broad and, you know whatever the next thing because my interests are broad and yeah um you know so that's the challenge with herpetoculture is like finding i mean there's so many cool reptiles like you know yeah finding something that you can stick with or i don't know i guess you know i can have a short attention span but i kind of like the diverse collection so i do you

know a couple pairs of each or something, I guess, Western Stimpsons, maybe I have, you know, quite a few pairs, but everything else is like a pair or two. And I'm, I'm happy with that. But I think, you know, we've, we've talked about this in the past, you know, to really do a species justice, you need a pretty good size collection like that, you know, like a 60-animal gig there. Well, 60 was probably a little – I tend to take things a little too far, and then I dial them back over time. Yeah.

And I actually – I initially was going to start out right away with 100 emeralds and just really go at it. Yeah. And then when I got to 60, I was like, you know, maybe I should dial this down a little bit and focus a little more intently on. Yeah. It's really the fact that what we're going to discuss today is having to DIY the Cajun. Yeah. And do a completely different thing than what's available is a daunting task.

Yeah, for sure. We're on fifth iteration that yeah but they're getting there yeah well i'm you know excited for down the road when i get to hear all your uh you know your insights into you know how you're successful with these guys so you're you're gonna write write a book or write something for – No, I mean – Something like that. Warren Booth is already doing that.

But if anything, obviously him and I have been in touch and anything that I find, I'm absolutely going to pass that on. Cool. I mean I've been talking about it freely what I'm doing. I just don't want a bunch of people – because it's still in the testing phases and it's risky. Yeah. Because it's still in the testing phases and it's risky. I just don't want a bunch of people to go, oh, Ron St. Pierre said this, and then go try to copy it. For sure. Because what I am doing is – I mean the thing I always do is to take it all the way – to look for the – I'm looking for the cutting edge. Yeah. I'm looking for the cutting edge, the very edge of it to take it all the way to right on the line between success and lunacy.

So that's what I'm doing. And so far, everything that I predicted has come to pass. So it's working incredibly well. They're basically the same thing as the giant anoles yeah so there's just some slight um some slight variations and obviously emeralds are quite a bit more um they're more touchy than than chondros like the chondros seem to really they're totally thriving under the system with the rain and because cause I, what I'm doing is putting the rain back in the rainforest. So,

um, yeah, they've done, I mean, I've taken some pretty crappy imports that were on death's door. And after a couple of weeks under the system there, they are amazing. So,

um, yeah. And it's been the same thing for the emeralds, but the emeralds are definitely trickier and that's why i'm probably going to keep them sitting at at the 61 they're at now i'll probably dial it down to 20 pairs and then i'll i'll leave it i had to gut my garage and i turned it to what we're calling the oven and it's basically the two-car garage is superheated we're keeping it 95 degrees.

And then I can roll everything out in the daytime and get sunlight, and then I can roll it into my porch area that's next to it, which is in the upper 70s, low 80s all the time. So I've got three zones that I can do with the Emeralds. The Condros have needed none of that. They just need to be underneath the rain. But, yeah i as time goes on and things get more tested i figure by next year i'll know how well it works um as far as production and getting out but as of right now it's i mean everybody that's been over here so far that's seen it has been fairly – they were like, wow, it's working really good.

And they look good. Like everything looks amazing. Yeah. Dang, that's awesome. Well, I guess high risk, high reward. That's great to hear. I'm glad it's working out. And hopefully we'll see a ton of babies from you here in the near future.

I'm not going lie dude i've already had like meltdown stress moments where i thought everything was because i keep i keep expecting the the legs to get kicked out from the table you know and one day i walked out there in the not a condor that expense yeah stupidly expensive uh pixel emerald that we brought in had its bottom jaw hanging down a little bit and i was like oh my god it God, it's going to die. That's all over. And I freaked out. I talked to McNamara and he was like, just calm down, dude.

He's like, they do this all the time. It'll pop back in. It's like nothing. And then sure enough, an hour later, it was back to normal. They do do some weird shit with their jaws.

Yeah. That's a true statement. But with that particular one year, no, and it had to be for sure. 61 a year. Say less, Ron. I'm totally with you there. Yeah. It was just like, fuck.

Yeah, the things heart attacks are made of. Yeah. That's cool. Well, best of success with that. Yeah, definitely excited to see where it goes. We still need to get our Reptile Fight Club trip out to Florida to check stuff out and to go herping with you. For sure, guys. Got to make that happen.

I'm headed to Australia in a couple weeks, and that's when the NPR crew is headed out to Florida. Right, yeah. They're going to be right down the road. I talked to Rob the other day about that. Nice. So, yeah. I'm sure they're going to come by. Cool.

If I can get away, I'm going to go take them herping somewhere. Yeah. It was kind of a mixed bag there. I was like, I really, really wanted to make that trip. But, you know, when somebody says, hey, we'll fly you out to Australia, it's like, eh. Yeah, that's a hard one to pass. Florida will be there. Exactly. Yeah. he says hey we'll fly you out to australia it's like yeah that's a hard one to pass florida will be there you know yeah yeah and and rob does tend to do trips two or three times you know to kind of

get you know make sure he finds the stuff he wants to find so we did a little rocket run to arizona a couple weeks ago and had a pretty sweet trip we found uh three pricei and and a couple a bunch of blacktail rattlesnakes it was it was a really cool trip yeah and the tiger first oh yeah yeah it was pretty sweet but yeah it's fun to fun to herp with those guys they're they're a lot of fun but yeah so i'm i'll be sad to miss that but i I think I'll be all right. Yeah. I was going to say, Australia or Florida? Fuck Florida. Yeah.

Well, yeah, I found a spot that's not too far. So it's a little bit of an extension, about a two-and-a-half-hour drive from kind of the northernmost point. But you can find Womas, and there's like quite a few records from this spot. And I'm like, I think I'm going to drive a couple hours north to see if I can find some Womas, you know. So I'm kind of adjusting the plan accordingly. But yeah, I got. But yeah, it should should be an exciting trip. And my buddy Jordan's going out and herping with me out there. So that'll be a lot of fun to herp with him.

He's a he's a cool guy. So I see very knowledgeable. Is he the game to just let you uh plan the trip or is he already like have you discussed this with him yet that's always the trick right no i i sent him i sent him the itinerary and he said this lines up with kind of what he's he's interested in seeing as well so he's like you know morelia asperitis blue tongues i'm like say no more we're on the same page you know this will be the trip for for uh south australia so we're spending a lot of time looking for those freaking carpets but that's uh so hopefully we get lucky and see a one or two but

they're uh they're a tough find it's it's a little bit kind of slower herping i i think from what i can tell but um hopefully you know it'll we'll just hit it right and find some cool stuff but we've got chances for uh molochs for thorny devils and for yeah for a couple different knobtail species that i haven't seen before so um i i need to see a western blue tongue and in the wild i still haven't seen a live one yet so hopefully that's in the cards as well but ah man i don't know just too many cool critters and too many cool places to go so yeah still sure yeah still trying to so i i don't know if i talked to you about this but i'm doing a 50th birthday party in Australia. So I'm going to get a group of guys and go out and herp in Australia.

Definitely welcome to join. That's cool, man. That'd be fun. Yeah. So I figured, why not? Oh, my God. You're going to be 50 already? Yeah.

A couple more years. So 2025 is kind of the key time for that. So hopefully we'll get a good group out there and find some good stuff. I'm still trying to figure out where I want to go because I was thinking South Australia and looking for these carpets for my 50th. But since I'm going this year, I'll see how it goes and see how the herping is. Because if I'm getting a group out there, it might be better to go somewhere like Western Australia or Central Australia where the herpings are a little – There's a lot of different stuff, yeah. Yeah, but a little more diverse, maybe even further north.

I don't know, but we'll see how this goes and kind of go from there. But like I said, too many cool places out there to explore. Yeah. I mean, you don't even really think about how big Australia is and how little of it is. I mean, there's places in there where, if I'm not mistaken, a huge portion of Australia has never been really explored or cataloged, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's just not roads to a lot of the places or it's aboriginal land. Can you imagine what might be going around out there, right? Yeah. Well, my first trip over there in 2010, he was a keeper at the Alice Springs Desert Museum, which is kind of like the Tucson, that outdoor zoo type thing, but kind of more naturalistic. But really cool spot. But he was saying that there was an aboriginal group that had a photo of a leucistic brettles, pure white Centralian carpet.

And they say once in a while it'll crawl through their house where they live or whatever, like crawl through their yard. And they'll see this leucistic brettles crawling around. And they just let it go on its way. And they've seen it a couple times or whatever. And'm like oh my gosh but there's no road to their place you know they're just out if they need to get somewhere they have to walk several miles to get to you know anywhere so kind of cool to yeah think what's kicking around out there that we haven't discovered or yeah it's just in some weird uh inaccessible area. But that would be fun to go out and explore some of those lesser explored areas, yeah, someday, I guess. But, well, all right.

Yeah, what would you do with a leucistic brettles? I don't know. What would you do? I would probably give it to Nick or something. I was going to say, give Nick a coronary. That's what you get for it. I,

I don't know. I just love the red. Like I take away the red and it doesn't do a lot for me, I guess. I agree. Yeah. That does kind of ruin it. Yeah.

Yeah. Morphs don't make everything better. Right. That's one of the things I like about most of those, uh, you know, like chondros, they don't, they don't create morphs don't make everything better right that's one of the things i like about most of those uh you know like chondros they don't they don't create morphs at all yeah they're awesome on their own so yeah and so are emeralds yeah it's funny how everybody wants to make a green tree python that's not green you know they want it to be some other color you're like come on guys that's the reason they're so cool is they're green snake you know yeah i guess uh the morph craze right that's it's fun but i think everybody wants

something unique you know yeah the novelty that novelty right exactly and that's why those like slow color change chondros get people and they love it. And, you know, it's, it's cool if you want to spend that money and take, take all the photos you can. And like, but it's going to turn out green, dude. It's for the most, I mean,

you know, there's some animals that don't, but, but by and large, man, like it, you know, most of them end up green.

Yeah. That's all right. Well, we're going to, we're're gonna fight about doing it yourself the to diy or not to diy right that is the that is the question question the immortal bard uh laid out so uh i don't know i guess uh you know i i think uh it's i i i'm kind of more on the diy side so you know we might might have to get chuck to fight you on this one but we'll go ahead and flip a coin we'll see yeah okay so okay go ahead and call it chuck tails whoa there with the coin yeah i feel like this

it was tails though it landed tails so all right you got it you want to fight ron or no you get to fight okay all right and i think you and i think you should take the non-diy side well we'll let the coin decide whatever man i'm just saying you want to call that one ron heads it's it is heads nice yeah i lost both of them but what a loser you are today that's all right that's all right i can take in the diy side because like there you go yeah that's probably a better uh better show anyway so uh all right well i just want you to know that i want I wanted you to argue this because it goes against your instincts. But then sometimes when I choose the side that I don't think Chuck will want to take, he's like, oh, I wanted that side.

I'm like, okay. Like, I don't even agree with that. Well, I helped you out and just let you know what I was thinking this time. You know what I mean? That's true. All right. Well, Ron the the big winner here you get a you want to lead us out or you want me to go first um i can go ron yeah you go

yeah you fucking go nice try you just tried to say it in a nice way so ron would be like oh i'll go you almost got me to do that he did he did no be ruthless with that shit all right what's all right well i think the the biggest uh the biggest downside to diy at least in my life is the time that it takes to to do things yourself to and you know it's it's one thing to buy cages do things yourself to, and you know, it's, it's one thing to buy cages, have them delivered, set them up, you know, that still takes a little bit of time, but if you're building the cages, furnishing them, you know, doing all these things, it can take a lot of time. So like, for me, I've got like a bunch of, uh, wood in the garage, just waiting to be made into cages. And I got it like a year and a half ago and I still haven't, I made, I made a couple and I

just, you know, I thought I'd do it a lot faster, but it's a little more time intensive than I thought it would be. So, and you know, I, I go and work on them for a bit and figure out, okay, I need this length and to make the frame to frame out the door or whatever. And then, and then I forget the measurements. So I don't write them down or I lose my, you know, the, the notes I took and then I go back and I have to measure everything again and figure it all out again. So, you know, it just adds time, but I think that's probably the main downside of doing it yourself is, or one of them anyway, is, is the time that it takes. And, you know, I guess if, if, you know, if you're doing it full time, that might, you still have a lot of animals you got to take care of. And so, you know, it's not like you have

any more time than anybody else, but, you know, and, and I guess if you make it a priority, you know, you can, you can do it, but you, sometimes you might have to neglect other things that need to be done as well. So timing, time, the time suck is one of the major drawbacks of doing it yourself. All right. Ring the bell. Jewelander just won. I can't. I mean, you're experiencing that, right? Oh yeah. No, no. But it doesn't stop you. No, no. Yeah. I'm totally in the middle of that. It's taken way longer to like this whole Emerald thing that we're doing with the, with the arboreals, we're not doing anything that is commonly done. So no commercial caging works for this.

I've attempted it with some of the commercial screen caging and stuff, but they all fall short to what I need to get out of them. But this has kind of been my entire career in this. Even when I started 40 years ago, I mean, I didn't have any money at all. We were broke as hell. So I had to DIY everything and I had to learn that. And fortunately, me growing up the way I did and a lot of the way i view the world and all that kind of lent us i'm basically a hardcore diy that's part of the the whole punk metal scene kind of thing that i yeah that you know when i'm not doing reptile shit or gaming stuff that's kind

of my other you know thing that i'm really follow and stuff so um so so yeah, I mean, and then, then as I got older, though, as I've kind of moved along in this, I realized that the needs that I have for the stuff that, you know, that I work on, it generally is not available in a commercially purchased product. Most of the commercial product doesn't have enough ventilation for what I need. So I, I end up doing, you know, even if I'm not, even if I buy commercial caging, I end up having to hybridize it myself and chop it all up. So at that point it may as well build exactly what I want, you know, but just like you said, that's the time suck.

Like I started this Emerald thing six months ago expecting to have, you know, be way further along than I am. But like you said, you start – we converted a huge portion of the building to basically an aluminum kind of factory shop thing. And I actually have my buddy Scott coming over three days a week and working here and helping us do it but it's still taking forever because it's just not simple and and neither one of us are professional builders so that's the time you know these guys that are really good at that they can just chop chop chop and get it done that ain't how it works here and then you know like you said you're constantly getting pulled away that you know there's a fire over here you know with like you said, you're constantly getting pulled away that, you know, there's a fire over here. You know, when you have a lot of animals, there's always some shit going on that you got to go and make some kind of modification. And then there's your half your day's shot at that point.

So, yeah. But, yeah, I mean, but I'm arguing the wrong side here. But the primary thing of it is that you get to tailor it to exactly what you want for the exact needs that you're trying to meet. And then it's, you know, I mean, you're cutting the labor out. So, I mean, you know, labor cost anyway. So, you know, if you don't have a lot of money, DIY really is the way to go. I can't think of any, any instance where, um, you know, I mean, that's, that's part of the, that's one of the biggest overhead parts of, of this, you know, if you're doing this for a living or even as a hobby, I mean, one of the biggest expenses is caging.

That's, that's one of the killers. So, um, you know know you can cut that out if you can if you're even somewhat handy and trust me i'm not handy and somehow i make this happen so like i can't even change the doorknob that's what i have jason owed for i'm like dude the doorknob's busted next time you're over here can you swap it out so no so it's it's that bad. Yeah. Well, maybe kind of to that point, when you do it yourself, like I'm finding out, there's added costs that I didn't consider. I thought, oh, I'll just do this and that.

And then if I cut it wrong or something, you know, you, you waste some. And so, like you said, you know, the professionals, you know, they, they can get in there, zip it out and be done with it. And so, you know, I've, I've heard of people kind of hiring people out to, to build stuff. And it sounds like you've got a buddy that'll, you know, help you out in that, in that regard to, you know, that has, has some skills in certain areas or whatnot. So, um, but I, I can't argue with the cost savings overall, you know, you're, you're probably going to make two cages for the price you can buy one. And if it's not commercially available anyway, then, you know, even if you got to make it four times. Yeah, I guess that's the caveat is if you don't like the finished product and you're like, well, I don't use it. If you're a one-and-done DIY guy.

But I think Ron is more of like an evolutionary kind of DIY guy. Yeah, that's true. Like I said, we're already on the fourth iteration. Yeah, iteration. As long as you can either revamp versions one through three or use them for something else, it's not a complete loss. And I definitely have found uses for things or disassemble them and use the parts to change it in a certain way. That can be tricky sometimes.

I'm not trying to say that money shouldn't be the primary factor in all of this, but you know, cause obviously it has to be in some, you know, fashion, but you know, maybe money not being the point of it,

you know, DIY sounds pretty good at that point, you know, especially if you good at that point, you know, especially if you have to iterate it to, to make it better and better and better. Yeah. And that's, and that's really the, for me, that's the big selling point. Is that okay? Well, if I buy a commercial, if I spend, you know, a couple of grand on a commercial caging thing and,

and it doesn't do what I need it to do. And then I got to start chopping it up anyway. Now I'm way in the hole. Way in the hole. Whereas this, you know, kind of like what Justin said, you know, each one of the iterations nowadays, let me back that up a little bit. My old method of doing this was build a system, that it sucks and then trash the whole thing it actually turned into this enormous pile of shit behind my building that we had to rent three

freaking giant dumpsters to get rid of and that was only three years worth of probably so much money lost there i don't even want to know about it yeah but um but i was trying all these different kind of like like i tried we we were in a warehouse for a while so so that i wasn't i totally wasn't ready for that and i was trying all these these things and they all were just awful and then we moved out here and then i tried some stuff with the building and i didn't like that but for this particular project i actually sat down it's been a long time like like months thinking about okay i needed to do this that and the other thing and what is the what's going to look the best you know i wanted it to look nice whereas typically i don't give a

shit you know the box is a box yeah so it's like you know i don't really care you know how it looks just as long as it's totally functional for what i need and it gets the job done. But this time I was like, I want to actually really enjoy this. I want to walk out there and have everything be uniform. And then I'm pumping a massive amount of water. We built an entire overhead sprinkler system that's 10 feet in the air suspended above all these enclosures that we turn on and we actually rain for several hours a day on on all this stuff and to do that when you start pumping that much water into a species like that which i i now absolutely am

convinced that that's one of the primary problems in captivity is that they, these things, they need an immense amount of rain. It takes on average, 20 minutes of hardcore rain to even trigger them to begin to drink. But once they drink, they drink for a long time and they they'll do this every day, but they don't do anything for 15 minutes until 15 to 20 minutes. And then all of a sudden they all start drinking and you can see this like down the line,

all these, like if you have one or two, you don't know, you know, is that anecdotal? But when you have 80 snakes doing it and the vast majority of them are doing it at the same time, that's,

that's a pretty, that's real data right there. Yeah. Yeah. So, but in order to do that you have to rate the temperatures must be much higher because they got to be all i found that they tend to like 94 degrees is what they're looking for a body temp so and the gravid females are 111 and it's almost to an

animal so they got to get really hot much hotter than where people do and then when you're putting that much rain in there you better damn well have really good ventilation or they'll get sick. So you're looking at heat and super high humidity, super high amount of water, and to be able to actually pour down rain and not totally destroy your enclosures. And you love them. That's a big ask. You're doing that without getting the hell out of that. Yeah, damn. Yeah.

And that's more than just a cage, dude. That's like a whole system. I'm doing that without hell out of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, and that's, that's more than just a cage too. That's like a system, you know, that's, that's, that,

yeah. I mean, when I talk about it, that's, that's what I do. I, I won't, I don't waste, I shouldn't say waste my time.

I do this for a living. Obviously you guys know this, but I do this for a living. This is what I do. So I can't have a pair of this and a pair of that. I can't have things that are not producing. If they're here and their money is going into them, they need to be – efficiency is a big deal for us. So if I had 60 snakes – this is why I'm doing this though the whole point of this and to take it to this level on this edge is to try to get the vast majority of them to produce every year and not not have 40 snakes

and only have three or four go every season i'm trying to get them all all or most of them to go and and and i've been able to do this with a lot of species a lot some of which a lot of those lizard species are super fucking tough i mean they're not snakes are not that much different in any way really so i'm looking for that same kind of uh that like i said the bleeding edge and i think this system is gonna have those results and and if it doesn't this year maybe, maybe another year of tweaking. Winner is our – But you feel like you're on to something that's for sure that's going to be – It's going to be solid.

Now you're looking at minor tweaking, right? Like it's how you kind of feel about it? Okay. Yeah. Not to put words in your – I was just kind of like – No, no. And I actually have been working on this privately in my head for 10 years. Like this isn't something I just started on a whim 10 years ago when I realized

that those, all those giant anoles had all of the same issues that chondros and emeralds have, including chronic regurgitation, if they get too dehydrated and in the process of me. And, and honestly, I started working on it. And every time I would defeat an issue, because it's one thing like you see a lot of people that are fairly successful with them. But when you have a pair of something, and you get six eggs a year, that's that is successful. But that's not really where the bleeding edge on those things are. The bleeding edge on those things is 25 eggs a year per female. And the bleeding edge on those things are. The bleeding edge on those things is 25 eggs a year per female. And the bleeding edge on those things is that they're almost all burning at max capacity all the time.

They're extremely efficient. But to get there requires a lot of creative stuff. And honestly, it took 10 years. Every couple years I would defeat a problem. One of the problems with them was obviously getting enough water in them. And then I was at a Culver's with Casey Cannon and he was sitting across from me and we were shooting the shit about different stuff and all of a sudden

what I refer to as a water bowl problem just clicked. I was like, oh, there it is. Because snakes drink from a water bowl and an old stone. So you would think that because they drink from a bowl that that would be enough. Why would you have a hydration problem as long as you got a fresh water bowl in there?

But that ain't true, man. And what it is is they require fucking prompting. I think this is true of all shit. Because we've actually seen it with the blue tongues. When we started overflowing the bowls every day, all of a sudden we didn't get slugs anymore. And our efficiency went through the roof because they're ectotherms and they require environmental prompting for every single life activity all snakes do. Think about it. The number one thing when you ask people about changing their

water, they all say the same thing. Oh, I change the water once a week, but you know what? I noticed that when I change it, they all come over and drink. So that's why, because you prompted them to come and drink. They, otherwise they sat in the corner and they were in a state of mild dehydration until something prompted them or they happened to, you know, run into the bowl, but think about it. That's why it happens all the time. It's whether, whether it's the smell of the water, just adding fresh water, whether it's the action of you sliding open the enclosure and then adding a little. So I noticed that, you know, a few years ago, listening to podcasts and stuff, everybody would say the same thing. And I'm like, oh, well, I wonder, but I never could really rectify it. And then, and then I, I figured it out in my own, for my own personal, that, that was just like the last thing. I just

couldn't, could never come to terms with that because I was like, okay, well, as long as the water bowl is full, they should be fine, but that's not it. And for the, the emeralds and chondros particularly, it seems like they need a long period of, uh, emeralds, particularly chondros don't seem, they seem to be a little less. They're probably from a slightly drier area maybe. I'm not really – I haven't been on the ground myself on either location. So I can only go by what I've read and people I've talked to that have been there. But with the emeralds, for sure, it's a full 15 minutes before they really seem to get triggered. And once they do, they drink a lot and they drink every day.

Yeah. So I think that's – I think that's that critical idea of knowing what an animal needs and how to provide it. And for the most part, we don't necessarily think a lot about that because we get a care sheet or we talk to somebody who's been successful with them and they tell us what they do, you know, and you're like, okay, now I know how to do it and now we're good, but no, nobody ever does what you're, you know, well, I won't, I won't say nobody ever does it, but, but people tend to kind of go with what's easy instead of risking an animal to test a hypothesis to see if a new you know thing is

is going to work and i mean you're doing that and you know like you said it you put a lot of thought into it and a lot of research into it you know thinking about their natural environment and stuff and i i mean that that interview on chameleon academy podcast with peter nekis and or net niches i i'm not sure how you pronounce his name, but but he talked about how he'd never seen a chameleon drinking water. You know, he'd seen him do everything else in the wild. And then he weighed a chameleon before it went to sleep. And then he weighed it again when it woke up and it had gained substantial weight overnight from fog. Yeah, just breathing in the water. And so who would have thought

chameleons get their water from breathing it in, you know, you, you spray down the leaves and they go over and lick it off. But you know, now, now with that in, in, in mind of breathing in the water, you know, a chameleon licking water off a leaf is severely dehydrated and desperate for moisture. You know, it's going to do something it doesn't ever do in the wild. And so, you know, but for how many years have we been spraying our chameleon cages down or, or, or letting it rain on them? And we think, okay, now I'm keeping my chameleon the right way. But for all those years, nobody really was. And now we've got foggers in there to turn on at night and fog them and they get water how they're supposed to get water.

Yeah, and they could very well be the same thing for a lot of these snakes as well. Because my stuff is outside, I'm getting that. They're getting water vapor. And I live – the property that we live on is sandwiched between two large lakes. So the humidity here is ungodly. And it's almost to the point where it's very uncomfortable to work outside in the summertime here. But it's been really good for a lot of this stuff. And I think – so I do think that's part of it.

I mean if you think about the nature of that snake, all those – that compact coil arboreal, the condor or the emerald, they sit on the edge of branches. They're not in the middle. They're out there catching water. That's what that is. That's a water collection device. It catches dew. It catches rain. Then they're also out there, you know, they're immersed in it all the time.

They're breathing in air, water vapor. And then on top of it, it floods where a lot of them are. They feed from the ground. So they come down at night. They pick their food off the ground. But if they're in a floodplain, they're probably going down there and drinking that water. Then there's bromeliads and stuff like that that occur there that also collect water in the branches. So when they're out cruising, maybe that's, they know oh it rains so now i can go over to this you know this little plant that's attached to the side of this

tree and i get my water there so yeah super water dependent and i think that's been uh been the limiting factor and because of that back to diy thing that is why is why we had to change everything to make this happen, and DIY is really the only way to go. I'm not even sure, though, if there was a commercial available thing that I would still end up DIYing my own stuff at the end of the day, because nobody's going to do exactly what you're – they're going have like a base thing that's basically good but it's not going to be exact to what you oh yeah i mean if i were to try to replicate or make you know like i i saw what you did and you know okay we got to make your i can't take my stuff outside and do that in utah you know maybe a two months out of the year three months out of the year but then the rest of the time I've got to do that indoors. And so it's going to be a completely different design.

It might achieve the same goal. You know, I might find a way to be able to rain, you know, get a bunch of shower stalls and line them up and just have, you know, water flood them a couple hours and have it, you know, recirculate or drain off or whatever. Yeah. And so it's a completely different animal. So, you know, I can't just adopt exactly what you do. And so, you know, I think, I think that's one of the, you know, now I'm arguing your side or my side as well. But, you know, when you, when you DIY,

you, you have to take in, you know, in, in a lot more things into consideration and, and, but I do think you can meet the needs of the animals better that way, you know in in a lot more things into consideration and and but i do think you can meet the needs of the animals better that way you know because you know using the chameleons again as a example a lot of the chameleon breeders were in florida and they'd have screen cages outside and so you don't need to do a lot but then we try to to have a screen cage inside in Utah and it's dry and you're always having to constantly put water in there. And it's like, almost just like putting a bandaid on a, on a, you know, open artery or something, trying to stop the bleeding. And it just doesn't work. So you need, you know, a solid wall cage or a glass cage or what, you

know, a bigger plastic cage or something to contain that humidity. And so just adopting something that somebody came up with is not the best way to do it. But like you said, you might go through several iterations to figure that out and figure out how to do it in your area. Because you might do something and think this is going to fix it and it doesn't work. And you're like, well, I didn't consider this or I didn't take this into account or, you know, that this, that, and the other, like, you know, I think you told us one time about building some outdoor caging. And then there was a tree that shaded that, you know, half the, you know, a couple months. But, you know, you don't want to cut down the tree because it's a substantial part of the landscape.

So you have to move those cages somewhere else or something. I didn't even do that. I just don't use it. We use it for – I actually turned it into a prehensile tail skink enclosure for a while, which they worked really good under there because it was all shaded. But now we've got giant anoles in there and it's working well. But yeah, but it was initially done for the lace monitors and it was a total failure yeah like they were just trapped in this shaded area for a significant portion of the year yeah and uh but that definitely i mean that goes along kind of with our conversation is you know you might fail with one species but you can

probably adapt it for something else to use and that's yeah that's we got to have some input from ruby come on chuck right but uh yeah just having that and and you know i i i will put out a plug for you know knowing the natural history of the animals knowing what they do in the wild and you know some of these seeing him in the wild, you know, like a picture's worth a thousand words. You know, if you get out and see him in the wild, it's going to help you understand. And I think like you've done is make those comparisons or jumps with species that you've, you know, seen in the wild, experienced in the wild and know kind of their habits and

what they're, how they're surviving and succeeding in the wild, and then adapting that to species from across the world, you know, because I do think certain, you know, rainforest inhabitants are going to get rain, you know, so like you can probably make the assumption that any of them are probably going to be okay in that environment and actually benefit from it. I mean, think about it. The species that we had the hardest problem with in captivity almost uniformly across all things, I mean, everything from frogs to lizards and snakes, they're all rainforest stuff. Yeah.

And if you think about our caging and the way we tend to keep things, everything we do is dry. So the dry stuff does well because that's what we have developed over the last 50 years. We, for some reason, think we can take the rainforest out of a rainforest species. I mean, when you say it, it sounds silly. But, I mean, even I was of the same opinion, you know, that that, you know, that wasn't necessary. But the more I worked on those anoles, and they're

actually not even rainforest. Like, you know, they're from Cuba, so they get a similar amount of rain that we get here in Florida. It's really not a whole hell of a lot of difference. But when you lock them into a, confine them into a small enclosure, you know, you're responsible for how they get, how much

water they get, because you're limiting where they can go and get their water. And so there was, there was, there was things like that. And then at the very end, which it was funny, man, I went for years pumping a large amount of water into those anoles, and I was always struggling to keep them hydrated. And I was like, I don't understand why this is the way it is because I'm raining on them for an hour a day when it doesn't rain, and it rains here all the frigging time. And yet they're always like borderline – they're always like on the verge of dehydration. And then someone relayed to me – I it was mike lauret down in in miami he mentioned to me that he knew somebody that was studying the giant anoles i think in florida and they found that they're eating primarily fruit all the time they're not really eating insects and

stuff like that and then i started to think about like, well, we coat all their bugs with calcium, which is a dehydrating powder, and then we shove this into these things and we're not really giving them a lot of fruit. So I did a radical, radical change in their diet. I took them off everything but they get fruit every day and then they get hornworms once every two weeks. And it was a total game changer.

Like it was a shocking difference. Now they always look because they're eating all this fruit that has high water content. And then there's probably vitamins and stuff they're getting from that. So I just rotate whatever random soft fruit is available at the time. So they get whatever. And all we do is we set it on these shelves and they just eat it at will all the time. They're a hell of a lot cheaper to feed too now that they're not eating bugs. Yeah, for sure.

You can probably grow a lot of the fruits in your yard, too, or get them locally sourced. Correct. We have some of that, and I have people that give us bags of mangoes and stuff. Yeah. But all that went into the hydrating factor. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, again, though, it's back to the DIY thing. It's just, I mean, all that shit, like I said, I've tried commercial caging.

Even when I wanted an indoor thing, I paid a guy to build very specific tanks for me for my indoor setup that I wanted. I wanted to fit a certain thing. I wanted a certain kind of airflow, very specific materials. And I couldn't build my own tank, so i did pay a guy to do this but that's still diy yeah you designed it yeah you're not you're not uh i don't think i have anything here anymore other than the zoomed screen cages which are basically just overflow for when you know if we have too much of something then those are cheap quick to assemble and you can throw a potted plant in there and they're okay for a couple weeks and they're fine yeah long term though they don't i've never been able to make them work um you know seriously but um but yeah that's that's the other big question too is like some of these commercially

and and again this is probably more on your side of the argument. But these commercial cages, like sometimes you're wondering who designs these or, you know, again, maybe not. They don't fit every environment. And, you know, again, yeah, I guess I kind of already talked about that a little bit in regards to like chameleon keeping in Utah versus Florida. You know, you're going to have a different cage for, for different needs. So the commercial cages is kind of like one size fits all, but one size very rarely fits all, you know, sometimes you barely get it to fit one in the right environment. Well, I mean, I almost, I almost feel like the caging, you know, pre-made caging is almost

like a materials you know like a materials and cost thing uh what materials are available to make caging at what cost you know and it was you know it was primarily it was glass you know for a long time and then now plastics are are becoming you know the the way so i don't even necessarily think like this is a different size box you know what i mean nobody's making any enclosures in mind for animals um yeah out of the big big manufacturers right like they're they're just they're they're kind of a here's here's a you know whatever you're putting in here you properly size it to that and that's what goes in there right that's the idea right and so i mean that you know ron's diy is like

for that animal and i don't even think that there's any any large manufacturers that are even saying our intent with this is this type of reptile this snake you know you know what i mean so so sorry justin i didn't i don't think ron needs help yeah i know he doesn't i'm gonna help him anyway it is a good point. Yeah, and it's probably also not even worth it for them to do that. Yeah, I agree. I mean – Yeah, you can't really make a business off of – Yeah, and I guess that's what I was kind of coming at in the beginning of what I was saying is their considerations have zero to really even do with like reptiles.

You know what I mean? It's almost a, what am I going to make this out of and what sizes do I need to kind of like fill a nipper? Um, you know? Yeah. I heard an interesting,

uh, uh, podcast. It is a Phil and, and, um, Oh my gosh, Roy sorry roy their podcast uh they were talking to again name's gonna fail me but um he's from oh zach poor he lives in utah and uh i i i didn't know who he was, but he's mostly into like aquariums and fish and stuff. Excuse me.

But he built a giant like greenhouse in his backyard. And at first he was just thinking like a room-size enclosure and then it just kept expanding and expanding. Steamrolled from there, huh? He's got this $15 you know greenhouse in his backyard with a pond and you know he's keeping his arowanas and and the the big rays you know black and white rays or whatever that sounds like my type of motherfucker right there it's pretty cool yeah so i will say that you know diy doesn't always save money you might be paying more but you get the product you want but in the end you're gonna fucking awesome for it sure sure yeah and you know the

so i i guess it's not always a cost-saving venture but i would say that it probably fits the needs of the animals better you know if you can if you can understand what they need and provide that with that cage and design it with that in mind. Yeah. I mean, look, if you look across all things, pretty much no matter what it is, it doesn't matter. Any type of thing, even just whatever it is. As soon as it's most of the stuff produced by large corporations, it's just kind of generic, less than, never that good. You want some really good shit. If you want really good food, you don't go to a chain place. You go to some badass mom and pop place.

You want really good – whatever it is. You go to a very specific people or a group of people that are doing this very specific thing. They're almost very small and so when you're doing when you're working with animals outside of the especially for what we do since reptiles are very um very specific and a lot of their needs all the commercially designed shit is for the generic pet store crap i shouldn't say it like that but you know what i mean yeah you can keep a fish a snake a hamster whatever you want in this 10 10 gallon macquarium or something so if you're a serious hobbyist and you're working on stuff that's not readily available in pet stores you know like chuck with those fucking um amethystines or whatever and you

know or with the emeralds or all the crazy stuff that you work on you really gotta diy your shit because i mean i guess i guess for the larger snakes you're in a little bit of a better spot because they were basically people spent a lot of money and research working out the ball python rack like that thing is that's that's a that's a modern marvel right there that that cb70 rack is designed no matter how you feel about whether they need more space or whatever just put that aside that thing is took took a snake that was formerly very difficult to produce i remember when they were considered unbreedable like that was a not something most people didn't even want to bother they don't eat they don't

breed in captivity all this and now i didn't go to a show what do you see i mean even little eight-year-old kids are doing you know because there's a plug and play system get your mom to buy a couple snakes get your mom to buy you a rack plug plug it in, throw in food, and you're good. Because it was very specifically tailored for that one fucking thing. Now, it does have some – obviously some side effects that it does work on other – a few other species that are sort of inhabit the same kind of niche. Yeah. Ground dwelling, relatively dry. And then to a lesser extent, the know, the vision cages and stuff, they were designed for larger pythons and boas.

Really, the boa constrictor is probably what drove that more than anything. If you look at the sizes of the cages and everything, that was the number two. But, you know, they work on other species that you can pull it off with. But outside of that, there's not a whole lot like, you know, there's problems with all that stuff.

Isn't that, maybe that's kind of the key to all this. If you, if you want a commercially viable pet type of animal, you need to kind of figure those things out. I mean, you look at Alan with the, you know, crested geckos. He makes a diet for him. You know, he figures out all these details and makes it easy for people to keep them. And so I guess, you know, when you're doing it commercially, you got to take that into consideration. How can I make this accessible to the masses?

And maybe that's kind of one of the things if you're, if you're DIYing it and that makes it very difficult to make it commercially available for the masses. If, you know, you say, okay, you can keep this species, but you have to build this giant. I just want to say, I just want to say that I think making it available to the masses goes against the principles of diy because and here's why i say that because what works in ron's spot doesn't work in justin's spot well i mean so how you diy is yeah is specific to what you're doing where you are that kind of stuff and potentially i mean we just talked talked about the ball pythons and how they were unbreedable but somebody – Right.

But they weren't breeding them in CB-70 racks outside. No, but what I'm saying is they came up with the rack system and then they became – I get that. So it did – it kind of was a way to bring it to the masses. But if you're saying you have to do this complex thing to get them to succeed and very few people can do that or – I just think even indoors, even indoors, you get enough like your winner and my winner indoors aren't the same. Yeah. My summer and Ron's summer aren't the same yeah my summer and ron summer aren't the same even though i'm not saying you don't have to adapt it to your local situation but i think once you kind of

figure out this is the primary need or the basic needs of this animal and if it's very complex that that species probably won't be commercially viable i see not many so you're you're like you're saying you're saying taking making the the the idea or the concept of what like like flowing lots of water through the cage as the concept is selling that and then having people figure out how they accomplish that themselves is that not that not that you can't keep them other ways and i and i think you know of course people have been keeping Emerald basins, you know, the, the, the, uh, Emerald tree bows for quite a while without doing, you know, the things Ron's doing. And I think he's taking it to the next level, of course. But so, so I'm not saying that, you know, if somebody's successful like Ron with, with the Emerald tree bows, that

there won't be a market and people won't be able to keep them successfully they just might not be able to take them to the edge you know to the to the razor's edge i just i just look at it i mean with the way ron's doing it is just such a proof of concept of like yeah you know it's kind of like once once he's six once he breeds 80 fucking snakes year after year with that, everyone's going to be like, Oh fuck, we can't keep them like this anymore. This is like clear. I mean like clearly we're wrong.

Right. And, and Ron is showing us he's right year after year. And, and so, you know, it's, it's the,

it's really the only way to force, uh, I think it's really the only way to force the change on people is – and you do it counterculture-wise. You show them the other way because the industry is not going to show them. Industry is not going to change for them. Goddamn, Chuck. You and me got to hang out, man. Hey, bro.

I'm on your – I vibe with you, dude. I've told you that. You know what's funny about that is that is exactly – so when I – Heather and I and Scott. Scott's bankrolling this. This is something that if I had to do this financially, we could not do this. So he's bankrolling it, but Heather and I – so the three of us sat down and we had this long conversation when I pulled this together. And they were looking at me like, Holy shit, we got to do this when I mapped it all out. But I had,

I have an entire map of not only, so not only are we doing this, I'm doing it outside first. Cause that's where my, I have all this infrastructure for that. Like that's the simplest, but also because I'm looking, like I said, razor's edge, but, but at the same time, I have this 1500 square foot building that we are working on, an indoor version. So my system is actually indoor-outdoor. Nice.

But there's no reason why you could not – it just requires, like you were just saying, Chuck, it requires you to rethink how you think about this, right? So you can't think about, okay, I'm just going to get a vision cage with sliding doors and I'm just going to spray them with a mister or whatever. Just throw that out. You have to have drainage. You have to start thinking somewhat along the lines of like a fish company would do. You need to have a basin to collect the water. You need to be able to flood it.

You need to be able to drain it. You need to be able to flood it. You need to be able to drain it. You need to be able to dry it. You need to be able to do all these things. But it's actually not that complicated. It sounds complicated, but realistically, these things, I don't feel like they're – honestly, I really – at this point, I'm almost 100 percent convinced that the vast majority of them in captivity are maintained in a mild state of dehydration, not enough to kill them, but not enough to really get like, that's why you see a lot of slugs. Slugs are definite. I'm a hundred percent convinced after all the time I've been doing this, that, that when you get infertile eggs, uh, that's a big red, red marker that your animals were not hydrated well enough,

whether it's in the males or the females or both. It completely dissolves if you stay on top of the water. And I mean, the biggest impact you can do for yourself is just to either overflow or add a little bit of water or clean your bowl every day. And I'm telling you that the effect is dramatic and it's across it doesn't matter because you're telling that animal hey you got water come drink otherwise they're not going to expend the energy at least yeah at least in ambush predators and to to a lesser extent some some uh more the hunting species but it seems a shocking difference. I heard an interesting discussion about water temperature and that somebody had given their snake cold water and it kind of went down and checked it out, but it didn't really do much. And then he gave it some warm water and again, N of one, you know, take it with a grain of salt, but gave it some warmer water and it went immediately in and took a big hearty drink.

And he tried it a few times to show that that – and I'm not sure if that animal just preferred warm water or if that's a real thing. But I'm curious to your thoughts on the temperature of the water. See, so I'm not doing any of that. I'm using straight well water right out of the ground. But it's hot as fuck where i'm at so when i'm pumping that water out and it's falling through the air it's it's temperatures probably being you know rapidly raised yeah um so it's hard for me to say but it wouldn't surprise me because you know i guess depending on where you're at too your groundwater could be a hell of a lot colder than mine. So there could be all kinds of things like that. I mean, dude, I really at this point, I feel like we don't know shit about this stuff. All of our so what is an interesting side effect to this, though, that I haven't really brought up,

I don't think. So obviously, I'm doing all imports, right? All my condos are imports, and I'm getting them from places that most people would not buy snakes from. So all the emeralds are imports except for a couple. So mites are a common thing, right? Mites cannot survive in my enclosures. Right. Within a couple of days, they're all fucking gone. Yeah.

And I know they've come in because i've opened the bags i saw the mites in there i was like i didn't even i didn't treat them i wanted to see because i didn't think mites could survive in this environment and sure enough there's not a fucking one not one and some of these places have are notorious for super mites um you know and then they come out of the wild obviously some of them them are like that, you know, that mice are just a thing. Like most, they get treated. So most people don't run into them, but if you're dealing with imported snakes, most of them have come into contact with mites and it's not really a big deal as long as

you get it, get rid of them. You don't want it obviously, but they're in it. There's not a fucking mite here, dude. They can't, they can't live in that thing. So I think that's another, uh, big plus the DIY plus to DIY because the enclosures we built don't facilitate mites surviving, reproducing. Whereas the dry, somewhat cool environments, you created the perfect spot for the standard snake mite on top of it. And then, not to mention, you know, I was telling some, maybe it was you, I was talking about, you know,

the fact that UV is a natural virus inhibitor. And clean air is, too. So if you have good air circulation, UV, that makes a big difference when you're bringing in stuff that may or may not have anything.

Yeah. So, you know, but our standard enclosures, you know, they're in a box with low ventilation. Most people don't use UV on snakes. But it's very common in lizards and it's very rare to have. And lizards carry all kinds of crap too. I mean, the gametes have adenovirus and, you know, it's very rare though that you ever hear about a collection being wiped out or something like that. And initially I thought, well, it's, you know, cause people are kind of tight lipped about it, but it still gets out.

Like if somebody again, lose the collection, they have inevitably bitched to somebody about it who then tells somebody else you find out. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Are you saying that the reptile industry leaks like a sieve, Ron? Is that what you're saying? The reptile industry is full of shit. People don't tend to talk about it. I feel like if we did openly

discuss a lot of this shit, we could make a lot more advances because if you have a bunch of different brains working on these shit, we could make a lot more advances. Cause if you have a bunch of different brains working on these problems, you know, we'd make more advances, but we're a little too worried about backlash. I suppose backlash or damaging. Like I just admitted that I had mites in all my snakes,

but I guarantee you that when I prove this out and I produce them, I won't have any fucking problem selling them. And neither would anybody else, because when they leave here, there'll be fucking perfect them i won't have any fucking problem selling them and neither would anybody else because when they leave here they'll be fucking perfect and there won't be a damn light on them so i mean so i'll openly discuss all that shit yeah um and uh i i don't i don't even know where i was going with this but but um i totally went off in left field anyway that was one of the big pluses to the diy thing though is that by radically changing up i think i i told you in a in a message i i basically looked at what everybody had done previously um and i and i and it nobody's

really to blame for this right like but the foundation initially way back like 40 50 years ago for this whole arboreal snake thing was faulty to begin with. So all these guys that have come up since then have all just – they assumed that what they were told was correct and then they've added little things on top of it. And so I mean that's really the story though of most of herpetoculture. Like we don't do anything here the way standard. Like, I've had people come here and go, what the hell are you doing? None of this is supposed to be the way it is. And I'm like, well, you know, we work within the confines of nature and use kind of a logical approach to things.

There ain't a whole hell of a lot of logic in a lot of herpetoculture, unfortunately, at the time. I mean, at least on a certain level. I mean, obviously there's guys like you that you hear, like that's why I love podcasts because you guys, pretty much all of you are serious and you're all the guys that are actually using logic. But outside of a very small group of us, maybe 5%, the rest of it, not a lot of logic, a lot of

bullshit that gets passed on as fact. Yeah. You're just mired in shit and it's hard to figure out. Honestly, that's been my whole thing the entire time that I've been doing this. I deconstruct everything down to

and then I start building back on top. Okay, this seems logical. This seems like it worked. This seems fucking ridiculous. I don't know where this idea came from, so I'm going to put this over here. Sometimes those ridiculous ideas, you find out later on,

oh, they're not so ridiculous because I just didn't know a certain thing and now it makes sense. But man, a lot of times, it doesn't make sense ever. Yeah, that's right so uh you know and that's what i'm doing here and again that's a diy approach is just like chuck said it's a counterculture fuck you to the man kind of thing i'm gonna do this shit my way and yeah and the hell with uh

the hell with the current you know know, the current paradigm or. Yeah. Or whatever. Then I think there needs to be a whole lot more of us doing that. Yeah, for sure. And that's I mean, again, that's, you know, the trick is to to get other people seeing the benefits of doing that work and doing that thinking and and and, and reasoning those things out because you, you can make a lot of, a lot of groundbreaking strides,

but I think it's, you know, laziness. It's easier just to kind of go with the flow. I don't know if it's laziness. I just think it's a lot of people are much more risk averse than Ron is. Ron's willing to stick his wiener into the deep end of the pool at a moment's notice.

It's, I mean, tell me I'm fucking wrong. You know what I'm saying? No, you're right, dude. And most people aren't willing to risk. Most people don't have the pair to risk like that. You know what I mean? So most people are unwilling to. They'll take a suboptimal system and run with it because it can still be profitable.

But again, I guess I wouldn't see it as much of a risk because he's experienced. He's taken his lessons learned from other species. He's applying those things. He's thought about this is not just a fly-by night. Like, Oh, I bet if I do this, this is going to happen. So, so, you know, but certainly, certainly we can agree that Ron takes much greater risks than your, even your average professional reader. Sure. No, I mean, yeah, definitely buying, you know, a bunch of Emerald Tree boas and keeping outside these different concepts is definitely – but again, I mean he's put the work in.

I don't want to make it seem like he's naïve or anything. No, no, no. There's good – A lot of people thought that. I heard stuff like that. I heard people were saying, oh, he's crazy. There's no way they can survive. You've got to keep him at 86 degrees maximum. I was like, all right, well, they'll tell me pretty quick if that's what they did. And it turned out, no, that's actually not true at all, that they would bask even when it was 97 fucking degrees outside.

They had the ability. I don't put any, I don't force anything into it. So when I put stuff outside, it has multi-tiered zones that it can get whatever it needs, get out of. And they were intentionally basking until their body temperatures hit 94. And then almost to a fucking boa,

they would retire into the shade and then they would maintain that 94. And if they had to, they would stick a coil into a beam of sunlight and raise their body temperature back up. Wow. And it was – that was eye-opening. I was like, OK, well, there's one bullshit thing kicked to the curb. But I think I understand it though. If you keep them at a cooler temperature, you're not dehydrating them as fast. So if you raise the temperature and you keep them in a dry box, you're going to fucking kill them pretty quick because they're going to dehydrate way quicker than if you're maintaining them at 82 or 86.

So they're probably, like I said, it's not severe dehydration. It's mild. It's mild enough that you feel like, oh, I'm doing everything right. And you get occasional breedings this way, even though you're not really getting, you know, a lot of viable offspring. You're getting some viable offspring. You're getting slugs. You're getting dry sheds. You're getting all this shit that's clear indicator that it's not enough, but it's not enough to put them in the ground. And I'm looking for that fucking optimal.

I walk outside. Everybody's bright green. Their heads are blown out. The dome on the top of their head gets really, really full. And when they're really hydrated, they shine. Like they're dark. Dude, I should have done these before and after with this group of arucandros that i got in recently it was last week they looked like shit you could see their ribs they were skinny as fuck i almost passed on it and then i was like you know i really want these so

i'm just gonna go ahead i bought 13 of them and three days three day i posted a picture of one today three days in this system and man that's a totally different snake that's so cool they all fed today um but um yeah so i don't know i don't know where i was going with that but yeah it's yeah, it is super risky. But I've got 40 years and over 100 species. Yeah. It is super risky. But I mean – But I am the risk.

I do – Yeah. Well, a long time ago when I was a kid, I realized there was no fucking point in playing it safe. Playing it safe is just boring and it'll drive i mean i've had some spectacular losses with these risks yeah and i and but i've had some some pretty damn good wins too so yeah um and i value both of those things i learned more i learned way more from the losses than i did from the wins the wins most of them they you know you're kind of like okay that's that's awesome. You know, I,

I was able to keep going. I made some money. I did this and I added this notch, but, but I don't really, you don't really learn a whole hell of a lot from those, but man, the times you get your fucking dick chopped off and you know, that's, that's, that's brutal, man. For sure. For sure. And it's happened a few times. Yeah. But I don't know if it's going to happen. Ron happens even trying to play it safe, too.

Yeah, I was just going to say. Exactly. But like what Ron was saying is like, you know, you risk and you lose, you learn. You risk and you win, you win. But if you don't take – if you're the play it safe motherfucker, yeah, sometimes you win. Yeah, and sometimes you lose. But not like that. Not like that. You don't learn like that and you don't win like that.

Yeah. That's why I say it's kind of lazy because you're waiting for somebody else to do the work. So you can just come in and say, well, I'll do it. And typically that doesn't work out great either because when you don't put in the work and you don't put in the thought and you're just trying to copy somebody's methods, again, you have to adapt them. You have to have some thought. You have to use some brain power to make it work and get it to work successfully. You can't just copy somebody else's work. It just doesn't pan out in the long run. Well, I think you can't just copy somebody else's work it just doesn't doesn't pan out in the long well i i think i think you can take somebody's model but you have to be plugged in you know what

i mean you can't just like oh yeah ron just runs a bunch of water through there and that's the fucking story like no man you missed the whole like you missed half the conversation you know like yeah it's not just so and i think that's where most people fail is is they they they they under articulate the moment like like stuff that they're seeing and like not checking in and not like paying attention because obviously like ron says he does stuff that's negative to the animal's interest but he realizes in short order and makes those corrections when he sees it not doing well. Right. So he's not just put him in there, fucking walk away. It's like, OK, how is this moment to moment, you know, kind of thing like it's, you know, and that's where I think people just they don't they want to watch their animal.

And I do think they want the best for their animal, but I just don't think they know. They don't – I think it's so far – being a snake is so far from what most people can interface with. They don't even know where to fucking start. I'm curious too. So I mean I think this is a great nice little side road away from DIY. But I think it's very valuable to talk about. And you think about nature has a lot of swings and drastic changes and things like that. So in a lot of these rainforest areas, they'll go through a dry period.

Rather than a temperature swing, you've got a moisture swing. And I'm wondering if that's part of the idea. I mean, are you going to have that swing or is it kind of maintain them at the optimal level at all times? Are you giving them that period of dryness? I'm going to give them a drier period. I'm going to switch to basically a dew type um for the winter time once it gets cold enough um that that is this that is the next phase it's trying okay that's the part that i'm worried about it's like okay now i gotta navigate the fucking winter here yeah um so i've already we've already like i said we already did a couple things when i took my two

car garage i fucking went in there myself and peeled all the popcorn shit off the ceilings because I'm going to put a whole bunch of emerald tree bows in there that are high humid and that popcorn ceiling will just fucking fall down. So I went in there and I gutted the whole thing. I set it. It's the hottest. It is essentially an oven. Wow. So I can roll all 60 emeralds fit perfectly in this thing and give me room to go in and out of work then it has a pad in front of it that on nice days I can roll them out and get them sunlight

and just and it gets full sun for all that I want and then right on the other side of that attached to my house I have this really long porch that runs the and it's all open but it's covered and it runs the entire length of the house. So I can actually put probably 150 of them back there. And that's totally shaded, and it creates this wind tunnel there that stays nice and cool. We built the lace monitor enclosures up against that so we could sit on the back porch and watch them. And I've had lots of people here do that yeah um so now i've we've cleaned all that out cleared that out so we can actually roll the snakes in there so that's for the emeralds and

the chondros are out in this indoor outdoor 1500 square foot building that will eventually be mostly for them and inside that building though we're going to build a plastic essentially a greenhouse that we can roll them into air and then heat that up if need be. I don't think I'm going to need that. And then, you know, there's other things to consider. If I'm heating the room, obviously I'm fucking drying it out. So I need to be able to compensate for that. So I think I have it all worked out, but I won't know until I go through it. And this is one of the reasons why I just haven't, you know, just completely, like Chuck said, you know, if I go out there and say, okay, well, I'm raining on these fucking things.

Somebody's going to think, oh, well, that's all it is. I'll just, and if you're keeping them at 86 degrees and you're pouring this much water on them and the ventilation isn't perfect, they're fucking dead. They're going to get respiratory. And then I'm going to hear you killed all my no no no i've been very specific about the fact that i took a fucking hammer to standard snake husbandry and then smashed it all into little pieces and picked up the few pieces that i thought were relevant to what i was doing and then threw the rest of it in the fucking garbage and started over from the bottom. Yeah. Because this is an entirely different way of doing this. Yeah. Yeah.

So. Now, I imagine, you know, as you're going through this and kind of fine-tuning it and figuring out, you know, if your hypotheses are ringing true or if they're proving out or if they're, you know, you got to scrap scrap an idea here and there um but i imagine you know kind of the end goal is to be able to make that a commercially viable project so people will be able to adapt it to their circumstances and you can kind of help them along the way to figure out how to give these animals what they need to to succeed yeah i that is what the essentially i don't know if you saw the photos of it, but the utility sink with the enclosure on the top is sort of like my DIY prototype version of this idea.

It's an old idea. It goes way back. Bob Mayhew at Sam fire dragon ranch used to use it for chameleons and frogs 40 years ago. That's where I stole the idea from. Yeah. Um, and,

uh, and I've used it for a ton of different stuff i'm experimenting with it i like some of it um but i think what it's going to take is eventually when this is all working and i can show you know i've got all these babies and and this is all working and everything that i think is – that I think one of these cage companies will see the – Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. For sure. Ruby agrees. Yeah, because friends of mine have – I think Keith – Chewy, too. He said it recently, but he was like, dude, you just should manufacture – you should be working on manufacturing your own commercial caging. And we had actually discussed that, but it's so far out of our fucking wheelhouse that, I mean,

I'll never do it unless Scott decides to do it. But I, but I think, I think eventually though, this will be kind of a thing where you'll, you know, you'll be able to go and buy a commercial unit that has a fucking drain in it that you can hook to a full,

you know, like, like the fish industry and you can, you can do what you need to do. I mean, it's, it's actually not that far fetched. Yeah. It's really not. I mean, if somebody makes the right kind of nozzle that can attack and then you can bring down on them and. Well, the new egos, the new egos have a drain in the bottom of the glass.

They cut a hole in the bottom of that glass and they're putting a drain in there now, which is okay but you know so even still i think yeah you're you're you know well and that's i mean i think that's the key for these cage makers is to partner with somebody like you ron and like you know this and and design it with your input and and help and you know then they kind of can take it to the commercial level. Sometimes it's hard though. I think you got to find the right manufacturer, cage manufacturer, you know what I mean? And if it's too, too expensive or too, you know, too niche, then it,

then it's very difficult to make it fly. I mean, I mean, there, there are some things out there now that were taken from that's like the second daytona show ever i had this very specific drawer system on display there that i was using to just to sell animals out of and a cage manufacturer saw it and then like three years later they were selling these exact same thing you know so yeah i i expect the same thing to happen i think a lot of them watch my page and i think as they see this stuff going on then they they're like, oh, I can make it way better. You know, add something that actually looks like super professional, probably collapsible. But the biggest hurdle there is kind of getting people to get outside of the dry box idea and start thinking about that.

Yeah, that's fine for things that it works for, but a lot of shit it doesn't work for. And you could actually be like, I really, I mean, I know that Warren Booth has said the same thing and I think, I think he's absolutely right. I don't think any of these snakes are that difficult. They're probably much easier than we think. I just think our fucking parameters are way off.

And that once that's rectified, I think they'll be common. I think you'll have lots of people producing them regularly. Because, I mean, right now the market, even to this day, most of the ones that are in the trade, even the baby ones, those are not captive bred. Those are almost all imports. So there are some. There are people that produce a few here and there. But it's not a lot compared to how many of them are held in collections. Yeah.

Right? I mean, there should be way more. That's the sad truth of it, you know, is that we do kind of, and I don't know, I, you know, you wonder if it's just a lack of interest or, you know, we, it's hard to compete against the import market, so we're not going to give it a go or it's, it's hard to say, but, but a lot of, you know, really that I don't enjoy about herpetoculture is that aspect of disposable pet, you know, that we're willing to support the mass importation of, you know, half-dead animals that go out to pet stores and go into people's homes. And they have them for a couple weeks and they die and they go, well, I guess I don't want to keep reptiles because they just die, you know, that kind of thing. Or they can get a captive bred ball python that's, you know, or a captive bred.

Getting that difference or getting that point across to people is very difficult because the cost of the captive bred animal is obviously a lot more. And, you know, but they're going to live. They're going to thrive. They're going to do well. And, you know, hopefully they can learn from the person they got it from. But that's one of the downsides of the hobby or the business. Yeah, that's definitely a thing.

No, I just think I honestly don't know. As far as the commercial viability of this thing, I personally think it's one of the most commercially viable endeavors I've ever gone on, if it works. Looking at what you can get for a captive bred ones and the demand I think that would be there if people knew, one, that they would be successful with them. Cause that's really what drives a lot of this, right? Most, most people, if they don't feel like they're ever going to be successful, then the value is not really there and it's hard to make the sales. But all of a sudden, if, you know, if everybody at least can,

because you're kind of selling the dream, right? That really is a big part of this shit.'re selling the dream of oh i can get these things and and you know i can maybe maybe produce my own and have some awesome holdbacks and maybe make a little money on the side to pay for this or you have kids that were like me that want to do this you know for a living so you know and you have you know obviously the whole gamut a lot of people that fall in between those two things. But I mean when I started a long time ago, one of the things that I was told over and over again were Tegus are not captive – reproducible in captivity. I mean that was the thing that I really wanted to do when I was a kid and I kept – people kept telling me that.

Boy, the shoe seems like it's on the other foot now, doesn't it? Right. And so me being the arrogant little shit that I am, I was like, fuck these guys. I'll figure this shit out. Then I had found this article about Burt Langerwerf who had been producing The Black and Whites. And then eventually I got a hold of him. And he was really – when I saw that and that he was producing them, I was like, OK, well, then at that point, everything seemed possible. All you got to do is figure it out, what the triggers are and all that. But that's, again, selling the dream. Now all of a sudden, that was one of the first things I ever bought from him were black and whites.

Then eventually I was like, OK, this guy's killing it up there. I don't want to compete against him. So I sold my black and whites and what the reds and then eventually the blues. That was, that was my gig. Right. So he's up there doing those. I'm down in Florida doing this thing. We're not, we're not, you know, competing against each other. Yeah. Yeah. And I was just, I like doing my own shit right yeah i just don't like if it's that's why i don't do ball pythons i mean there's a lot of fucking money in those i

could have yeah i i could have been financially well off a long time ago because i had a lot of those founder morphs but i just didn't give a fuck about them so i only do things that i really you know have some interest in and you know I shouldn't say that because I have done things that nobody else was doing. Like the Anol thing started out, nobody was doing them and I was like, well, fuck it, I'll go do them because everything is interesting and it'll be fun. I never expected

that 10 years later I'd still be doing the damn things. It was supposed to be this, like, I call it raiding. I've always raiding. I've always done this. If somebody pops up a new morph in something that's super popular, like we recently did it with the Azanthic Crested Geckos, right? Yeah.

I don't fucking do Crested Geckos. But I'll raid the morph. I'll buy one, buy some babies, make a bunch of them, sell them to collectors while they're very valuable. And then as soon as the price goes down on them, I'm out and I've sold the thing off and then I sit and wait for the next thing. That's one of the ways we've been able to fund all this stupid, risky

shit that we do is by doing that. I've been doing that off and on for like 40 years. I know there's people that probably don't like that. We don't advertise them anywhere stuff, so we're not really affecting their market. Almost all of it goes overseas. So that's, I mean, I figured that out. It goes to fund something far more valuable.

Yeah, good shit. Yeah, exactly. There's nothing wrong with using those commercially uh yeah yeah not like that i mean you know not like that i think that's exactly how you you know if you're going to uh participate in a system you don't agree with that's the best way to do it, is use the money to fucking work it against the system. I just... Hunk rock hermiticulture. Hunk rock hermiticulture. That is exactly it, man.

Yeah, of course. Fuck them. Yeah, I don't... That's why we have no employees. It's just me and her. She's as hardcore about this as I am't. Yeah, that's why we have no employees. It's just me and her. She's as hardcore about this as I am. That's why, honestly, I've been able to make as many advances as I have over the last five or six years. She's been a huge part of that. Her husbandry is so far above mine that she catches shit that I would have not caught.

She'll be like, oh, I think this is going on in this zone, and then I'll go out there and look at it, and then her and I will figure out how to rectify it. But it's really good having two long-term herpetoculturists that have different skill sets. It's been extremely valuable. But yeah, that's all DIY shit, man. It's fucking system i do your shit and i'm i'm having a struggle to think of anything you know kind of against you i know i thought about that i was like because all three of us are kind of like that so we're just like not going to be much of a fight but no um but it yeah it's it's uh it's it's i think the only challenge is finding

out what to do with the the failures you know where to like you said the big pile of trash in the backyard i guess you can set out board lines and go herp you know in your backyard i actually have that too on the because i have five acres and there's all kinds of stuff here. Yeah. So, yeah, we have hog nose and indigos and stuff and lots of gopher tortoises. That's cool. All I ever find in the – did I ever tell you guys about the fucking yellow rat snake? I think so. The one that ate seven grand worth of rare animals? Oh, maybe not.

Oh, no. Oh, my God. So for a couple of months, fucking these extremely expensive rare anoles were just vanishing from the enclosures. The enclosures were locked. They didn't escape. I thought I was losing my fucking mind. And then for a while there, I thought, well, maybe one of the neighbors is jumping the fence and coming in here and stealing one or two. But it didn't make sense because in one particular enclosure, the only two blue bellied night anoles that I had were gone. But,

but, but another anole that was an albino that was in there was untouched. And then, you know, it was just weird. Right. And then the baby lace monitor disappeared. And I was like,

what the? So I actually, when the monitor disappeared, I got on the phone and I called all the reptile pet stores in Florida. And I was like, hey, if some asshole shows up with a lace monitor and a bunch of this other shit, let me know. Yeah. Because it's missing. Well, it turns out that a three-foot yellow rat snake figured out that it could come up through the drains in my tub system. Oh, no. No way.

And it had eaten two adult podiora, the two blue-bellied anoles. It killed the only Bacillus albino in existence. And it ate the smallest of two lace monitors that were in this enclosure. That is tragic. Man, that is worse than a cat. That is like cat murder. This went on for like six months and the only reason we found it is Heather came out to talk to me about something. She was going somewhere and she said, hey, I've got to go.

And she goes, why is there a yellow rat snake shed? why is there a snake shed yeah and with the albino anoles and i was like what are you talking about and i look over and there's a fucking shed all around in this albino anole cage and in in the cork log well that enclosure was attached to three other enclosures that only had a small separator. And I started going through them. And on the second or third one, there was no annuls. The out the podium that was in there was gone. Inside the cork tube was a rat snake with a perfect outline of an adult podium.

No way. Yes. That sucks. That's DIY caging for you. Yeah. DIY caging for you. DIY caging for you. Damn, you didn't have that story, Justin. That would have been a good one for you.

Oh, my gosh. I was so pissed. I was like, holy shit, that explains everything. Yeah. And that's what it was. That is definitely the only downside to DIY caging right there. Dude, I saw that coming. I can't believe that that snake would get up these drains.

That's crazy. The cork logs are what screwed me because it would get in there, it would eat something. Obviously, it couldn't get back out the drain with a giant freaking lizard inside of it. So it sat in those cork tubes until it digested it enough to get out and go to the next thing.

Oh, God. And so he was just growing well, shedding, eating. Yeah. Tens of thousands of dollars. Multiple sheds. Oh, my gosh. Now, there may have been more than one. There may have been a couple doing this, but I'm pretty sure it's just the one.

Oh, my gosh. Underneath the sinks are wrapped around the things were shed skins from him. Multiple shed skins. They've been there for a while. Eating well. So how did you fix it? Did you just put a... We put grates on the drain

and that animal now resides at Eddie Soto's house. He was there. There you go. I'm never getting released from prison you're in a fucking max security prison forever now dude i know no i i told him he lives you know near a park it's a native species so i was like on your way home just drop this thing off and he's like fuck no he's like this thing's got a story i'm gonna he's got gold in that belly i swear to god like a ten thousand dollar fucking yellow rat snake that's sad

at least i mean at least i know i know i try not to think about it yeah yeah right but yeah that's nature's brutal. I guess you gotta, you know, I could not figure that out, man. I'm like, why the fuck is somebody breaking in and stealing these random things and they're locking the cages back up.

There was no way they got out. Then I was thinking, well, maybe it's somebody that comes over here and I was starting to get all suspicious and shit. And it was a fucking rat snake god damn yeah you've got the best stories i can listen to your stories all day i mean some are sadder than others but yeah yeah yeah

yeah you do this shit long enough, man. Stuff happens. That's true. Oh, well, I, um, we appreciate you coming on.

I mean, you're, you're the wealth of knowledge, you know, it's just, it's just, just, uh,

unparalleled. And we appreciate you coming on, sharing your ideas and talking these things out. It's, it's really valuable to myself. You know, I, I learn a lot from, from these conversations. So I appreciate it guys. Yeah. Thank you. No, we appreciate you

coming on and I'm sure, you know, the listeners are going to get, you know, some really good, good, uh, you know, ideas and information. And hopefully, I mean, no, you know, I think one of the main points is, you know, put in the work, do the thinking. Like you said, get a hobby or an area of your own where you can kind of make these groundbreaking discoveries and bring other cool species to the spotlight. Don't just follow in other people's footsteps. Get a little punk rock herpetoculture going and get some, get some new stuff in the hobby. That's, that's kind of where the fun is, I think. And, and where you can stay excited about things and break new ground and I don't know, that's good stuff. So, yeah. Yeah. And I think Ron's definitely even showing that even, even stuff that we've had in the hobby

for a while, you can break new ground in by the way you, you know, keep it or, or, or work with it. And I mean, there's just so much like, like Ron said, we don't know shit.

We don't know shit. There's just so much to do. Yeah. If you, if you look at it, only a very small number of species are success stories in this. Oh yeah. It's a tiny number.

Yeah. There are a lot of stuff in the hobby, but most of those are not success stories in this oh yeah it's a tiny number yeah there are a lot of stuff in the hobby but most of those are not success stories there yeah you know some some different you know varying levels of success but none of them are like there's there's not that many ball pythons and leopard geckos and it's not because this stuff can't be there you know unless it's like something that's like super low productivity, like, you know, Carusha or something like that. Yeah.

But even those. Yeah. I mean, there's this. Yeah. Shinglebacks. I mean, yeah, there's a huge demand. But yeah, it's really hard to get a colony started and, you know, to make that happen. And yeah, and that's that's probably the biggest barrier on the Shinglebacks.

But I mean, Carusha, they still do import them. So you could if you could fund it, you could, you could – if you had the space and the desire, you could go at it pretty hard. I don't know if you saw John Felicity. Oh, yeah. Felicity. Felicity, yeah. I can't say his name either. But I know him.

Sorry, John. Yeah, he's doing some shit up there. Yeah, he is. I had to call him as soon's a cool guy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had to call him as soon as I saw Gary's video, you know, I went and looked him up, listened to his few podcasts.

Then I called him on the phone. I'm like, this is cool stuff, you know? Oh yeah. You should totally get him on, on here. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's, he's DIY and I know for sure, you know, and making it work. So I wish him all the luck.

Cause yeah, he's got some, some amazing stuff that I would love to keep someday, you know. So that's – I love this hobby and I love, you know, the idea of making that. I think one of the things that really brought that to light for me, you know, how many things are out there. Like I got that Book of Snakes by – what's his name? It's out there. Like I got that book of snakes, um, by, uh, no, uh, what's his name? It's up there. Um, is that a Marco? Marco Shea, you know, and, and, and he had like, you know, a few representatives of every type of, or every group of snakes. And like, I was in there, I'm like, I have never heard of half of these things, you know, and you're like reading their description. It's like, Oh, they specialize on feeding on blind snakes. Okay. Yeah.

That's going to be difficult. Yeah, exactly. But they're beautiful. You know, they're really cool looking. So I'm like, well, I guess that's one for, you know, herping. That's what herping is going to satisfy is finding that thing in the wild. All those slug eaters. Exactly. I used to catch mud snakes down in South Florida all the time and they were amazing. You're like, oh my God, it's as big as a king snake. It's got a bright pink stomach. It's shiny black and they're really awesome and they also eat fucking sirens, so forget it. Yeah.

There's no way to really keep those. I guess you could maybe try to get them over to axolotls or something. Yeah. Breed axolotls or something. But yeah, that's the trick, I guess you could maybe try to get them over to axolotls or something. Read axolotls or something. But yeah, that's the trick, I guess. Well, yeah. Thank you so much for coming on and spending your time fighting with us. It's been a pleasure.

We never do any fucking fighting. No, we don't. We don't ever fight. It's true. We got to get you and Alan on here. You guys will show us what it's about. Yeah it we got to get you and alan on here you guys will you guys will show us what it's about yeah yeah that there'll be some banging heads there yeah for sure all right yeah guys we gotta are we gonna have to go down into it i mean yeah i tried it didn't work

he doesn't goad well yeah no yeah No. Yeah. No, he's a stubborn motherfucker. That's for sure. We'll have to find his trigger. All right. Well, thanks again for listening, and we'll catch you next time for another episode of Reptile Fight Club. That was fucking awesome. Thanks, guys. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Bye. Bye. Bye. Thank you. We'll be right back. Thank you.