Reptile Fight Club - To Photo or Not to Photo w/David Kelley

Episode Date: April 25, 2025

In this episode, Justin and Rob discussWho will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comIGFollow Rob @ https://www.instagram.com/highplainsherp/Follow MPR Network @FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQSwag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

All right, welcome to another episode of Reptile Fight Club. I'm Justin Juhlander, in case you were wondering. And here with me, of course, is Rob Stone, my trusty co-host. How you doing, Rob? I'm doing great. Nice. And today we're joined by a special guest, David Kelly. Thanks for coming on, David, and welcome to the podcast.

Absolutely. Thank you guys. I'm looking forward to it. Yeah. So, yeah, I guess it's been a, I guess you guys might not have sensed any huge gaps because we've kind of had a few coming out here and there, you know, every other week or so. And so, but it's been maybe a couple weeks for us and maybe a needed break. We had a lot of stuff going on, but back at it now. Happy to have a fun topic tonight for a little bit of a discussion and Yeah, thanks for coming on and maybe tell us a little bit about yourself where you fit into herpetoculture

Yeah, no problem. I've I've been working with mostly Australian Python. That's where I got my start of course, I was a little obnoxious, know it all back in the day and tried to scale it back and certainly humbled by all the different species I've worked with to this point. Nowadays, I primarily work with aquatic salamanders. Diamond pythons are what I really focus on. Um, we've got a couple of colubrids, um, green rat snakes, uh, some transpecos. Um, uh, let's see, I've got Egyptian tortoises, pancake tortoises, marginated Russians. I've got a,

some U S fish and wildlife permitted deserts. Um, so a little bit of everything, but, um, yeah, those are my, those are my main focuses these days. That's cool. I really, I really liked the Egyptians and the pancakes. Those are really, I mean, the, the others are cool too, but those are the ones that have really stood out to me. I thought, you know, someday I'll maybe dive into tortoises a little more. I really am a tortoise fan for sure. Yeah. Desert tortoise was one of my first pets. So, oh, they're fantastic. It's something that, you know, my girlfriend, uh, she, she likes all the

animals, but the tortoises get her involved and it's really nice to be able to work on together. So, you know, we've got a big crop of dandelion in our front yard. So we just set out some lawn, lawn chairs and put the desert tortoises out there to munch and we just kind of sit and watch them. It's a good time. Oh yeah. They're fun, fun species. I still enjoy going out and seeing them in the wild. I, I had that one for quite a while. It was actually, uh, my friend founded in a ditch and thought it was a snapping turtle. So he called me the, you know, the local reptile kid.

And I went over and I'm like, that's a desert tortoise, you know, go, go for a sagasese and can, can I have it? He's like, yeah, sure. I guess you can have it. So, um, we built a pen out in the backyard and yeah, it was a lot of fun. And he'd get loose every once in a while. I'd have to go put up posters looking for him, but, and he was actually somebody's pet that had had him for decades. And like, you know, had the whole hole in his shell and chain on the, you know, shelf type thing, which was kind of frustrating. So that was our first thing to fill that in. And, you know, but yeah, cool, cool species. Yeah, I, it was a weird situation to a woman had called my place of work saying, Hey, I've got five tortoises

Can you guys help me out? Hmm, of course we're going down the spiel of well, you know, we can't take cicadas and she's like, oh no, no These are desert tortoises. They're from Nevada and I brought them here 20 years ago and they were my husband's but he's dead now So where do I do with them? Yeah, so they were they were they worked with me and it was it was nice So what do I do with them? Yeah, so they were they were they worked with me and it was it was nice Fishman wildlife worked with me and we got him placed. What was crazy. We have fortunately lost The biggest male that they had estimated to be over a hundred What was was crazy about it was when we did the necropsy like it was it was heart failure It was like a really hard. Yeah, it was yeah, you know

It shouldn't be that exciting but to like know that that tortoise lived a full life and had an age related heart failure is astonishing to me that I saw that in my lifetime. Maybe it's not that interesting, but I thought it was, it was fascinating. Nice. That's cool. Where are you located? Uh, I'm in Wichita, Kansas. Okay.

Cool. Yeah. My sister lived out there for a bit and I remember going out there and we went to the Omaha zoo. That's such a cool zoo. Is that that pretty close to her? That's about six, seven hours north of us. Really? Yeah. Maybe, maybe she didn't live in Wichita. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Okay. Um, yeah, she must've been somewhere else or she was there. They were in the brass. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Okay Yeah, she must have been somewhere else. She was there they were in the military. So she was all over the So maybe she was in Omaha or close to there anyway, oops. Yeah, not not a close suit of you

Not sure why I had that in my head, okay cool. So yeah, we've we've heard a lot about I had that in my head. Okay, cool. So, yeah, we've heard a lot about Kansas herping and how amazing that can be. And I don't know, do you have much experience with that? Do you herping much? Yeah, you know, during 2020, when everything kind of locked down and I got pretty bored, I've been exposed to it a little bit beforehand, but I wasn't, I wouldn't say a diehard herper. But I don't know, when you have nothing else to do and everything's closed, I just started driving. And I've been kind of going hard at it for about five years now. So not a lot. I'm not going to pretend to be the most knowledgeable person compared to some others out there. But I try to I try to spend at least three or five three to five nights a week during the spring and summer and fall out road cruising.

That's that's what I like anyway. It's yes. So, yeah, we've always heard these rumors or not rumors or stories of flipping a board and finding 20 snakes under something or a rock, you know, there's a finding 20 snakes under it or something or a rock. There's a couple of snakes under each rock. You did the right time of year, I guess. I haven't had that experience yet, but that's mostly just my location. I know further up north in the Flint Hills, it can be phenomenal. We've been so incredibly dry the past couple years.

We get snakes, but I'm not gonna pretend that it's like these massive numbers. I've seen two milk snakes in the past two years. And some of my friends that have been doing it much longer than me have talked about flipping hillsides. And it's like milk snake, milk snake, milk snake, milk snake. Same hillsides, they've been hitting for seven, eight years. And now it's just steadily drying out.

And the saying here now is that we're the Yukon in the winter and the Mojave in the summer. And that's sort of what it's turning out to be. So, yeah. That's important, yeah. I guess we kind of had a bit of a drought here for quite a while. And then finally we got good water, you know, good water year.

And we saw some, we had some really great herping, uh, Rob and the, the guys made it out and we did some really, uh, some good herping and saw a lot of stuff, but, um, the stuff that's, that likes the dry and the hot, they, we didn't find many of those. And then went back the next year and got those. So, you know, it's, uh, I guess you take some and you leave some depending on the hot, we didn't find many of those and then went back the next year and got those. So, you know, it's, I guess you take some and you leave some depending on the weather, but yeah, it's crazy. I was going to ask you, so in your experience, mostly what you're doing is cruising. You know, it's kind of like, is it in your area, is it kind of flipping, hiking, cruising,

all of the above? I mean, you can flip, you can hike, you can cruise. I just have a physical job, so I want to de-stress. I could flip a rock and bend over a bunch of times, or I could put on a podcast and go drive. I like to drive from like 9 PM to 4 or 5 AM in the morning. Oh, wow. So pretty late. Those are the weekends.

During the weeknights I'll try to do like, you know, probably get out there at 7 right at dusk and then cruise until 1-2 in the morning. Okay. During the spring, the hardest part is trying to During the spring, the hardest part is trying to match my work schedule to good flipping weather. So we'll get great rains, great temps, and then by the time I can get out flipping in the morning, it's 95 degrees and it hasn't rained in two weeks. That's been the biggest hurdle for that. So I get to enjoy the weather a whole lot more. Just to add a little credibility, I think the Kansas is up to 99 herb

species and I've seen about 56. So not all of them, but at least a good majority. Yeah. No, that's it. That's doing great. And you're doing what our buddy Nipper always encourages, which is to heavily explore your own state, your local area and kind of starting from that standpoint. I know he's given particularly me, but Justin as well, the business around kind of gallivanting about instead of really focusing down on our stuff. Yeah. I think for us too, it was kind of COVID that kicked us in the butt and said, why are you trying to travel to Australia so much when you've got some really cool Herbs in your backyard? Not that we stopped going to Australia except during the pandemic, but yeah. Sure. Well, I think, you know, my day job, I'm a zookeeper and, you know, obviously I'm not going to talk about where I work just because I'm not a spokesperson for them. But I work with a good

number of native herps and it kind of started to blew my mind, like what we have in the United States and what I've not been focusing on for my entire interest in reptiles. So especially rattlesnakes. And then when I moved to a state with plentiful rattlesnakes, that was sort of what really kicked me. Like, oh my God, I can just find these, you know, like, like in Ohio, we had Eastern Masa sagas, you can find them, but you're like, you're busting to find a Massasaga. Here, like you just flip a rock and like 18 just come out of the grass. I mean, like it's, it's, and you can really kind of see all that variation and well, I

don't know. It's just, it's a good time. Yeah. So those, those that you're seeing for the most part is that Cambra eggs or is that Western Massasagas? So we're seeing the Prairie Massasagas the most. They're probably the most common venomous snake in like the, I don't know, we'll say the Western two thirds. And then on the Eastern border, we get mostly copperheads.

To the North, it is pure Easterns. And then in the, we'll say bottom half of the Eastern side, we start to get Latticinctus and Phaeocaster hybrids. Interesting. Broadbands are officially listed in the state. However, I don't know of any genetic analysis that has shown a pure broadbanded copperhead. So you do get to

caught timber rattlesnakes throughout the eastern portion as well, although they are on the decline like in a lot of their range. But second to the Masasaga is definitely the prairie rattlesnakes. So those are our four big ones that we do have an introduced population of Western Diamondbacks into one of our parks. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of weird. But when you go to that park and see it, you're like, oh, man, that's the atrox habitat. It is disjunct from their native range. So it's not like it was just some relic population. There have been some sightings of wild atrox on the southern border in the past five, six years. So there is the potential for them to be moving upward. When you look at the data points though, it is right there on that border. So it's a close call

on a coin toss, depending on the day, what you want to call it. But there were, there have been at least two that were deep enough into the state that you can 100% call it a, a native find. Okay. And it's open ranch land there. It's not like it's developed. So it's pure wild. Just, just enough that it's keeping them just past the border for the most part. So we're we're wondering if because it's been getting steadily warmer here,

if it's just like allowing them to kind of encroach just so much into the state. Right. I mean, and by warmth, I mean, like my boss goes to Arizona once a year and for about the past seven or eight years, he goes to Arizona. We're hotter in Kansas where we're at in the south. We have a lot of nights where it doesn't get below 90 until like midnight. So that's what I mean by increasing warmth. It's not when you expect the great Plains states, but it's where we're at right now. What's historical like average or what would you expect normally? Normally you'd expect it to be about 10 degrees cooler during the summertime, 80, 85. But man, we're just creeping up in those summer months.

Yeah. Where it's quite frankly, unbearable a lot of times and it just kills the herping. And that's why going back to my earlier comment about road cruising from, you know, 9 p.m. to 5 a.m. It's getting some of that cool. Yeah, exactly. Like you can road cruise all evening and nothing will happen. Man, the minute 2 a.m. hits. It's just like a migration of snakes across the road. Really? Where I like to go anyway. Yeah. Is it like a dew point thing, do you think? Or, I mean, are they getting some moisture

in the air or is it just cold enough? I think it's just temperature. You know, once it gets down to like mid to low 80s, high 70s, it's just everything moves really quick and then everything shuts back down again. Wow. And that's gotta be rough on the sleep schedule to wait till two. It's become a habit of mine on the weekend to take a nap midday and like sleep for as long as I can

and then drink a coffee and then just head on out. That's cool. Absolutely. So what is the, I guess what's the seasonality you would say where you find snakes now? Like if someone wanted to come on a trip maybe to see Mastasagas, when should they come? Well now is about the time. Okay. Although I will say this year's been oddly cool still, so it's not the best, you know, not the best to recommend it this year, but on an average year you can start coming out and finding them kind of out in the rock piles where they're denning. Not road cruising weather yet, that's probably gonna be another month away. But as far as flipping and finding them kind of out and about, now's the time. So the hardest part is that in our state, it's a lot of private land, a lot of private land. So you either have to find some nice rock cuts that are public property, right on the

side of the road where you feel safe to get out there and flip, walk in hunting areas that have a lot of rock flipping, or you've got to know some people that are going to let you go on their land. So that's our biggest hurdle. If you can find any one of those, you're in for a good time. Right. We're kind of spoiled in the West with public lands. It's a beautiful thing. Oh, man. I went to New Mexico last year for a herping trip and it was Amazing being able to just kind of go we wanted to right and yeah And so then is there kind of a lull in the summer or is it just it's just that you know 2 a.m. Window

They for cruising they can find him and then pick back up in the fall. Or what does that look like? Yeah, you're definitely going late at night or you're just not going at all. It gets to a point where you start to really question what you're doing, quite frankly. Now, I should also mention this is a very specific part of Kansas I like to go to because of the variety of species there. very specific part of Kansas I like to go to because of the variety of species there. If you're going in the eastern portion, the forest, I don't even try. It's hot, it's dry, nothing is moving. Those places I like to hit in spring, early summer or fall. If

I'm going out west, you can go year round, but there is going to be that lull in the heat. So you either need to pack up for a late night or just plan on not going until things get a little better. But I'm an addict and I can't stop, so I go anyway. You might as well go anyway, right? So what do ideal conditions look like relative to that? I know sometimes, right, the common refrain was always, rain is, you know, in the desert, rain is good, it brings everything out.

Whereas in the rainforest, we found that rain is not good because it's like, they just say, okay, well, I'll just hang out, unless they're a scrub python, then they'll come out. That's the only thing that's good for rain. So is rain generally good? Like having just rained is good, but you still need the, you know, kind of enough left in the day to know Justin and I have seen this in Arizona, right?

It rains too late in the day, really cools things out and kind of kills it as opposed to rain sort of in the afternoon, you still have the sun, so you still get that warmth going. That's a good thing. Rain yesterday versus, you know, a sprinkle right now. What any of those things? I definitely think that rain early in the morning, big sunny day, it kind of dries out a little bit, but you get that humidity spike, that's going to be a good night. If you're going for copperheads, my God, it sets them off. I mean, they really come out.

In the western portions, it does become more like, I'm going to use New Mexico, that's the only state I've had experience with in the western portion. It does act more like that. You get a good rain and it dries out just enough where there's some warmth and the animals are moving. They're trying to get that moisture Yeah I

Guess you know the other kind of thing what what what do you? Consider to be sort of the easy or kind of you know easy targets versus tough targets for the area that you like to go Okay, so just to clarify that I like to herp in a portion. It's about two hours. I'm going to be as vague and yet specific as I can be. It's about two hours west from me and it's like a little slice of Arizona. I got plopped like right into Kansas. There's some red mesas and very like red clay soil.

And the species diversity there really broadens to things like night snakes, long-nosed snakes, black-headed snakes, which I know some guys, some of my friends in Arizona laugh, they're like, they're throwaways here, man. Like not here, they're a treasure here. So I took the easiest target of all is going to be a Western Muscle Saga or a Prairie Rattlesnake. And then after that's going to be a decay snake. And we have a hundred plus in one night, um, road cruising of the K just

to case snakes. Nothing else. Uh, it was a weird night. We, we only stopped counting because the driver's neck started to hurt and he's like, I'm not stopping if it's not rattles any longer. Um, those are going to be your big three. And then depending on the year, you'll get splatterings, a little kind of change. Like for example, I would have said up until last year,

prairie king snakes are one of the most common. And then everything went on like head over heels last year, and it's speckled kings now. I saw almost no prairie king snakes in the exact same spot. I've been seeing them for three and a half years, and I only found speckled Kings now. I saw almost no Prairie King snakes in the exact same spot I've been seeing them for three and a half years and I only found Speckled Kings. And same thing with the Rattlesnakes. For three, for two years I saw way more Massasagas and no Prairie Rattlers. The past two and a half years it's been all Prairie Rattlesnakes followed by Massasagas but there's definitely been a number switch with them.

So I hope that answered your question. I'm kind of just rambling. Yeah. So what's on the opposite end? What are the tough to find? Like where it's realistic they're there. Um, but like what would be your biggest win? You know, you say you go out and you spend a bunch of time

and then it's what would be the thing you'd be most thrilled to find? Oh, man, definitely an atrox or a checkered garter. Those are like rare, rare, rare, rare, rare, if not even potentially not in the state anymore. But more realistically, a longnose snake like that's that is not common. Let's see. I always like finding a black headed snake. You don't always find them.

And when you do I always get a smile on my face. Red snakes. We do get thread snakes out here. We've got some ground snakes and night snakes. I'd say those are the big ones where when you see them you just know you've had a really fun night. Hmm. Very cool. Oh of course hog nose. How do I think about those? Like we've got Easterns and Westerns. Like of course uh you know that being said I've yet to find a live Eastern much to my chagrin but you you find it, we found a Western at like 1150 at night once. So that was kind of a fun moment. Like it was hunting little spadefoot toads across

the road. We're like, yes, this is fantastic. Yeah, that's very cool. That's neat observation too, to see him, you know, engaging in that kind of activity. That's cool. Yeah. Very nice. Very cool. And what are the Eastern Hognose look like out your way? Man, so they're not dark. They're not that melanistic form. I don't know how to describe them other than having like the yellow and kind of like greenish blotches. I don't know if that's the best way to describe them, but that's what I have found on the dead ones anyway. I'm told they're much they're not

that hard to find that you just have to know the spot. I have a friend that literally told me he was just walking by a field once and there was an Eastern hog nose there. I have a co-worker that showed me a photo of a snake he was like hey this was in my bed last night what is this it's silly like it's it's just been really bad luck yeah that's crazy hmm very cool let's see any other hoping questions there Robert right well I think the I think mostly you mostly my selfish purposes or whatever were pretty good. Kind of the thing we love to ask and you've hit on it a little bit right in terms of saying that you went to New Mexico but are there other areas that you've heard and talking through that a

little bit and then simultaneously kind of what's on your bucket list in terms of places to go or things to see? So I really started to broaden out the past year and seeing other places to herb. For a while I was pretty ingrained in Kansas and just enjoying driving where I could in my own state. So last year I did New Mexico. I really don't know why I got that hair up my ass. Oh, wait, hope that's okay to say on this. But I really wanted to see a Transpacos Ratsnake, but not in Texas in New Mexico. So I don't know why I decided that I decided it though, did not get it. But it was it was pretty incredible to be able to go from the lowland desert up into the highland,

like the dry pine oak forests and look for Sacramento mountain salamanders. I've done a little bit in California, just south of LA, and got a couple rattlesnakes off my list, but it was a very short trip. So it was just kind of see what you can, why you can. I'd say the Ruber was the biggest win of that trip in particular. I went down for the reptile talks and I feel bad. I really liked the talks, but to know I was in Ruber habitat and not looking for a Ruber, I just had to take a morning and go look for it. One of the local guys there was like, Oh, yeah, go here. And there's gonna be a big rock pile. And just like start walking. Like, Oh, do I flip? Do

I do? He's like, No, just walk. And yeah, sure enough, there's just big rock pile behind the suburbs. And there's just speckled, just speckled rattlers out basking on top of it. After about an hour and a half of doing that, we leave and there's a ruber coming out from this little woodlot and just basking right out in the sunshine. It was the most incredible spot of luck I've ever had. That was a fantastic little trip. Let's see. Oh, sorry. Oh, that was the Reptile Talks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm considering doing that this year. Alan's been on me to come out and see him. So I need to go out and support

that. I think it's a cool thing. It was a really good time. I was hoping to go this year, but with my vacation time, I had to make some choices, which is do I want to go to the Reptile Talks or going back to Rob's question, do I want to go to Herb, West Texas? And I chose West Texas. So that's what we're doing this year, me and my buddies. And my target is a Transpachos Ratsnake. I really want to see a Transpachos Ratsnake. My target is a Transpacos Ratsnake. I really want to see a Transpacos Ratsnake. I've done a little bit in Arizona, but by the time I got there it was November and my friends were just kind of humoring me. They're like, yeah, we'll go look for Chucks. I'm like, you never know, you never know, the Chuck Wallace might be out. But they were not out.

know the chuck wallows might be out but they were not out but we did we did we did go up by pace and look for the large blotch and satinas that were in the mountains found found some of those that was a really cool yeah and because you can legally collect them and I'm a salamander nerd I did pack them up and they're right over there in my basement right now. Very cool. Yeah, they're beautiful salamanders. They're really nice looking. Yeah. Well, and they're so weird. I know it's not the topic of field herping, but it's a salamander that if you get too wet, it dies. So you've got to keep it dry but humid. And the only way I can describe to take good care of them is to basically just ignore them completely and cross your fingers. I mean, I truly cannot say I've ever paid less attention to an animal

and they're getting fatter. I mean, they're growing. So, we'll see what happens. Yeah, that's very cool. Good luck with those with those. No, thank you. That's fun. I still need to, we looked a bit for them, but yeah, they weren't kind of the top of the list for anything. But yeah, I'm surprised we didn't run across any because it was raining like crazy while we were there and it was too wet. Yeah. Yeah.

It was cold too. Yeah. Yeah, man. I think it was just pure luck. I mean, you know, my boss has gone there in July and he found five. And I went in November when it was cold and had it just rained. And we worked to get the three that we found. And I mean, worked.

Yeah. And then I had a local herper tell me that he's gone out and caught like 20 and 30 minutes. I don't understand them. I'm surprised. I, I, whatever they're doing, I truly understand. Yeah. Some matters can be definitely difficult to, to key in on when they're going to be crazy active, you know, just in abundance, you know, find the here and there. Right. Yeah. Not that, you know, I don't know much about salamanders, but you

know, I and we have a whole one in our state that Anders, I found all the salamanders in Utah, which I like to brag about a lot. But yeah, same kind of thing. Like you'll see them on rainy days, sometimes out on the road or, you know, crawling around or falling in somebody's window well or something like that. But otherwise you'll see the larvae in the ponds up in the mountains and stuff, but you're not going to see adults much unless it rains hard. You know, man, I've tried to key in on them in Kansas by going out in the rainy nights and all I've gotten out of it is a stuck vehicle and like a bunch of an empty gas tank. I'm no good at it. I'm happy to flip for salamanders

in the woods. I think I'm done trying to road cruise type of sals and small mouths. Mm-hmm. You know, I collected several of the, you know, the larval form and raised those up and they're a lot of fun. The tiger salamanders are really fun amphibians. Yeah. Yeah. Just a side note for anybody listening, I got a, I'm going to plug salamanders for a second. I mean, it truly are. They're a gummy crocodile with the color of a poison dart frog or a guppy. Like give him a, give him a chance. You'll, you'll get them. But anyways, I apologize. No, I agree wholeheartedly. They're, they're just, they're, they have a really fun personality, you know, kind of dopey, but like, like you said, like almost like an alligator or something. They just, they'll go after anything they think they can overpower. And yeah, they're, they're fun.

I really enjoyed keeping those tiger salamanders. Yeah. I, I mean, those fire salamanders, I don't think you could get much prettier hurt than the nose. You know, they're just incredible. I've really fallen sucker at all the fire really nudes. They're I don't know They're they're dopey. They're colorful and uh, I don't know. They're hearty. So right. Have you ever done any uh, like east coast trips out to like the Appalachia or anything to look for salamanders and

Uh, i've done some work trips where we had like 24 hours or like're like, well, it's raining and we're in North Carolina. Let's go look for salamanders. I just remember we drove down this rocky, sorry, this, I don't want to call it a canyon, but it was a road that kind of went down into a valley and there was just rock on all sides. And salamanders were just like falling out of the crevices. I mean, we were constantly stopping and just like falling out of the crevices. I mean it was we were constantly stopping and just like taking a look at all of them. Yeah of all things it was like 55 degrees out and there was a um what's the word um a copperhead out and about uh which in my state

I feel like that's that's almost unheard of but this this animal was out and hunting the salamanders like it was a big deal. Yeah and and I to mention, I've also, going back to Rob's question again, I've herped Idaho and Montana briefly as well for rubber boas. Let's see, there's a population, a rough skinned nude up there that we look for. Let's see, long toed salamanders, alligator lizards, those were the big targets. Very cool. Did you find any rubber bows? Yes, we did. Idaho is a no collect state, so you can't collect from Idaho, but you can in Montana. So on the way out of Idaho, we found a bunch of rubber bows there. When we went to Montana, my boss went, we were up there for work purposes. My boss crashed the hotel. I grabbed the rental and I started driving and I was about to give up. It was 1140 at night and 46 degrees.

And I saw this, this male sort of crawling across the road. I grabbed him and I like kind of did this little, just like victory scream in the car, like, yes, I, I collected my own rubber boa. So yeah, he's living over there right now. So yeah, very cool. They're very interesting and cool snakes for sure. Yeah, very different than than the typical snake you get in Idaho or Utah or Montana or whatever. Yeah, I don't know how you guys feel about it, but I'm okay with the, what's the word, regulated trade of wild herbs so long

as they're collected legally and, collected legally and in a non-commercial manner. So I hope it doesn't offend you guys, me talking about it, but I really appreciate being able to go out and collect my own herbs, know the locality, and it makes it more important to me in the future. I can go buy a rubber boa, but I'm always going to remember seeing that fan cross the road. And so, yeah, no worries. I mean, you know, it'd be hypocritical of us, you know, to be wholeheartedly against it at a minimum because like we're just then externalizing the cost of saying, oh, it's okay that I'm working with Indonesian species that were collected by someone else or whatever. So I think there's certainly there's that aspect to it.

We both I think the sort of non-commercial aspect that you highlight there is important to us and taking it for a purpose and to value it. Those are critical components. I did collect my first Utah Cal King under a permit, of course. Yeah. But yeah, I came across and I'm like, man, he's just going to get hit by a car. He was out on the road. You know, it's like, it's lucky I found him because he would have been dead otherwise, you know, because he was just out in the middle of the road. So I'm like, yeah, he's coming home with me. I'd seen so many DORs before I found my first live one that I'm like, yeah, I think he's coming home. And then got a female for him. Not

too. Yeah. Well, actually, the female was gravid. And so, yeah, she laid eggs. And, and so I took, I gave some to some folks that were interested in some locality, you know, Cal Kings, and then I took some back and released them where, where we found the female. So, you know, just trying to put, put back what she might've put there anyway, you know, give them a little headstart with some bunch of pinkies and stuff and then turn them loose. But, um, yeah, it's, it's, uh, I, I have nothing against it other than, you know, like the, uh, the folks we saw in, in

Texas that were just indiscriminately picking up, you know, collecting whatever they found. And, you know, we were, and we just had the misfortune of kind of rolling in behind them, you know, where they were just leaving with a, with buckets of, you know, stuff they collect and were like, you know, that's awesome. You know, he's like, Oh, you want to see this? It's, you know, you're seeing it in a bucket instead of on the crawl. You know, honestly, no, I'd rather not. Right. Kind of frustrating. Now that's one that you need to

find out in West Texas is the kookalata, the big old tantilla black headed snake. Oh, yeah. Impressive. There's, I mean, we've only seen, we only saw a DOR, but it was, it was a beautiful animal, really nice looking. So hopefully you'll get to see one of those. They're really cool. Oh man, that'd be, I'm trying to keep a low expectation because now that I, now that I know how the desert works, I did not understand New Mexico at all. So I was baffled when I was like, I don't understand it. The temps are good. Then the monsoon rains sort of are explained to me. I'm like, Oh no. So whatever happens at West Texas, I'll be happy. But I'll, I'd be stoked to see one of those.

Yeah. Just, uh, you know, like get your neck ready to be staring up at rocks. It's something man. Yeah. It's a different animal for sure. But it's, it is fun though. Yeah, we had a good time out there. So yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've been what? You've been twice? Yeah. Yeah. And I still have to go back. Still have to see the Transpagos Copperhead. I'd like to see a live kookalata. That'd be really cool. I really nice to see a lep lep. Yeah, and the Trenton the copperhead as well. So my buddies found a clow bry in New Mexico last year. Yeah, I was so focused on trying to find a stupid madrian alligator lizard that I kept driving up this mountain for three days and they all got, understandably,

they're like, we don't want to go back up the mountain. We're done. So they texted me while I'm headed up the last time and they're like, hey, do you know if Alterna are here? And it's just little curled up lepidus. I'm like, ah, ha, ha, funny, funny. Yeah, jokes on them. I got my alligator lizard finally.

But yeah, I need to see a lap this year. funny. Yeah. Jokes on them. I got my alligator lizard finally. But yeah, I need to see a lap this year. Yeah. Yeah. The alligator lizards are fun. Yeah. We saw one in West Texas and several in Arizona and yeah, there's California. Yeah. Oh, they're so cool. For sure. Yeah, absolutely. Good stuff. Well, are you ready to fight a bit here? I think we should. I guess we got to live up to our name here. All right. Well, tonight we're going to talk about photography. So I guess, do you fancy yourself a photographer or not at all? No, no, I have this really cool camera called an iPhone. Okay. Okay. Yeah. That's, that's kind of what I've, what I've resorted to as well, but I'm kind of regretting it after this last trip. I mean, I'm,

I'm looking at some of the guys's pictures and then I'm like, maybe I do need a better camera. I just, I'd like, well, we can talk about that, but yeah. So that's, that's the topic tonight. We're going to fight about, uh, you know, to, to photo or not to photo with, you know, real gear. I know Rob is definitely a real gear man and he's a, he, he takes his, you know, takes the time to take some good pictures.

So, um, I'm sure it'll be a lively debate. So all right, let's see. Rob and I will flip the coin first. So Rob, go ahead and call it. Tails. It is Tails. You have won. Would you like to battle with David or would you like to defer?

I'd like to moderate. I think this will be more fun. I want to hear from you guys and then I'll have my own takes on the side. Sounds good. We'll have two phoners arguing here. Go ahead and call the next one, Dave. We'll say heads. It is heads. I'm a double loser this week. So would you like to take the iPhone centric view or the the real photographer view? I'll take the iPhone centric view only because I'm more familiar with it.

Okay. I you know, I'd say my viewpoint only comes from the fact that I'm so greedy that I want to get right back out herping. Right. That for me, if I can get a quick shot where the snake isn't blurry, I'm like, awesome. All right. On to the next one. I used to like showing off photographs every once in a while on Facebook. But the more I've done it, the more I'm not interested. I mean, it's more fun when it's just me and my buddies out in the car. We're like, oh my god, you see that? And I like to take a quick voucher shot just so I have the GPS coordinates. And if it is something that I think is important, I'll take those GPS coordinates and I'll put it onto the Kansas Herp Atlas as a citizen science voucher. Within reason, obviously, we don't want to be plastering every

find onto an atlas. But I don't know, I don't like to show off all my photos. I don't really like to show off everything I find. I just kind of am growing more to live in the moment. I find. I just kind of am growing more to live in the moment. I'll then fight myself and say, sometimes though you do find something so cool, you do have to show some people it. So I don't know, I guess I'm somewhere in the middle. Maybe I'm doing a bad job on this show. I don't know. I completely agree. Like a lot of times I'm looking at it. And I think for me, it was like patience. I wasn't patient enough or I didn't have, I didn't want to learn it or, you know,

I was kind of resistant for some reason, cause my dad and my brother are pretty good photographers. And I have a cousin who's like a semi-professional photographer. And so, you know, I probably had the people that could have taught me and showed me how to do it right. But then it's like, well, they're doing landscapes or they're, you know, they're not really interested in macro shots of a snake or a lizard or something. So I just kind of resorted the phone. But you know, that said too, like, I like to kind of relive the moment through my photos. And so, you know, for the most part,

I think an iPhone captures it all right. But for some of those really cool, you know, like you said, the ones that you find that you're just so over the moon about, and you're willing to spend a couple hours just staring at it or taking pictures or whatever, watching it crawl around in the bush, that those are those special ones where I'm like,

you know, I really would like something watching it crawl around in the bush. Those are those special ones where I'm like, I really would like something that kind of captures that to a greater degree. And so being on this last trip in central Australia, we just had such good luck finding so many cool things. And I look at Jordan's pictures and Aspen's and Nick's pictures of the brettles carpet. I'm just like, man, I wish mine looked like that. It's fine for an iPhone photo, but I wish it was a little more crisp and clear. It'd almost be easier if they were only yours. If the photo of the animal was your photo, and you say, oh, this is the best as compared to even my stuff, right? Comparing it to, yeah, when it's with Aspen, you know, or the

quality of the stuff from Jordan, then it does make yours feel less than right, because as much as you say, fancy, fancy photos and things that which I like to think I do, I have photos that I like, it certainly is, you know, a much more limited kit than what all those guys are bringing out there. We're talking about the Grand Canyon trip. Phil, I think it was on Venomous Exchange Radio, had highlighted, oh, well, Nipper's photo of the Grand Canyon rattlesnake taken in pitch black on a new moon, whatever he's like.

Oh, just look at Nipper. Your head scalation photo is so much better than Rob's. And I'm like, his, his kit costs 10 times what mine does. Right. Yeah. And sometimes I, you know, I maybe get a little prideful if my iPhone photos take, take a, and granted iPhones aren't cheap necessarily, but it's like, and, and the, the, you know, I'm going

on your side here, but you know, like they're not not the worst photos for sure. And so people say, oh, wow, that's a nice shot. I'm like, you know, I just kind of and I do think, you know, there is something to the composition of the photo. It's not just the necessarily the tech. And I think, you know, I really admire those, the guys that got photos on film with the old school cameras. You know, you look at some of those, some of those photos and you're like, okay, now that's, that's a real

photographer. You know, I don't think I could work that magic no matter what kind of tech I had. We cheat in volume for sure. Certainly I do. In a way that you couldn't on 24 pictures. And I think the resources are out there. I think the other thing that is difficult for me was the amount and the size of room that was taken up by camera, you know, camera gear. And I mean, Jordan, I, his, his camera, uh, suitcase, her case, you know, it was like this, uh, Fort Knox case for his camera gear carrying it around. It was like probably 60, 70 pounds. Like it was insane. So,

and I'm sure he had to pay a little bit extra to get that on the plane and you know, all that kind of thing. So it was, it's pretty crazy. So but you know, the pictures he got are pretty phenomenal. So I have found myself looking at cameras on, you know, B and H photo gear and stuff. And I can see, you know, that would be nice. And you know, I kind of, I, you know, where I, where I've been doing the books and stuff and I can see, you know, that would be nice. And, you know, I kind of, I, you know, where I, where I've been doing the books and, and using my pictures for the books, um, you know, a lot of them are my iPhone shots, but it would be nice to, you know, I look at some of the other photographers and seeing some of their shots and being like,

okay, they're much better. We're going to put those up, you know, forefront rather than my, my phoners. But, you know, I guess, uh, you know, I see, I see a real clear benefit of having a nice photograph or a well-compositioned or, you know, lighted photograph. Um, you know, I, another example, sorry, just to throw this one in there, going back to Rob's Grand Canyon rattlesnake photo. Rob's photos are, you know, they're a different color than my photos, you know, and there is a lot to be said about having good lighting, not just necessarily a good camera. And that's something that really wasn't very clear to me. I need to do better if I'm going to get a real camera. I also need a good kind of external flash

that you hold in the right spot and take your pictures that way. Because it really does make a difference. Because you can have the most expensive camera in the world. And if you're not using correct lighting on a herp at night, you're not going to get a great shot whether or not you have a mirrorless, you know ZX6 or whatever from Nikon. Yeah, yeah. To play devil's advocate again, I think a large part of it also is where you're at with your herping personally. You know when we were up in New Mexico, I was with Eric McCormick and Chris Yergioni along with my friends Jake Milbratt and actually Behoff, you guys might know.

So my friend Nate Haney, but Eric and Chris Yertioni are amazing photographers, my goodness, are they. So my first lifer I had to find there was a Sacramento Mountain Salamander. And of course, first thing we flipped, boom, is right there. So, I get my quick photo and I'm like, oh, this is awesome. I got to go find more. And for me, it was taking in the forest and flipping logs. Chris, a much more experienced New Mexico herper was able to sit down with his very, very heavy and large photographic equipment and get a decent photograph of the animal,

make it look like it was, you know, freshly flipped, you know, colors on the colors, correct. It's not blurry. It looks like it just punched right out of the photograph to get to you guys because he's at that part. I don't know. I feel like that plays a part in it too. I am impatient. I need to be out there. I don't know. Physically touching the forest and like getting on to that next

animal. So that's. Yeah, I agree. And I will say I'm in the same way. Like, you know, we we had that story, you know, kind of a humor story, but we found a Gila monster we found three or four times in so many years. And so I kind of made the joke of like, Oh, I've seen this one, I'm going to go find another one, you know, because monsters are so easy to find in Utah. And so, but, but I got lucky and walked, you know, maybe a, you know, an

eighth of a mile and found another one just crawling on the red rocks. And I was, you know, of course, very stoked. I'm like, got another one. They're like, yeah, right. You know, I'm like, no, really. And I've, I've done that, you know, a few times where we're photographing one thing and I'll get impatient and go find another one or something, you know, you got to be careful too, because I was talking to Rob while I was walking and looking at him taking pictures of this Sidewinder, and all of a sudden there's a rattle at my feet.

There's a Sidewinder right by my shoes there, so it was a little sketchy, but yeah, you still need to pay attention to where you're walking, even if you're near where they're, and same with Rob when he was photographing that tiger. Yeah. Well, and I was going to say, I know I've mentioned this before, but Justin, with that Sidewinder spot, that's the only place I've been where people are afraid of snakes. We're talking about a place being like infested with snakes, especially on the right night or whatever. And that's the only place I've been where in terms of rattlesnakes that would be the case where it's like Sidewinder's in that spot when it's going.

Yeah, that same night I almost stepped on one too that I'd forgotten that, oh, we'd already had, I'd seen that one or whatever. And then, yeah, they're truly, yeah, can be wild densities. Yeah, and the tiger rattlesnake thing, because I would fall firmly into the box of spending a long time taking pictures of stuff and having to send Justin away, just say, yeah, go ahead. So they actually physically drove away and were gone for like 40, 45 minutes or something like that as I'm working with an increasingly agitated Tiger Rattlesnake to the point where I then had to move it down the road and So they had stopped the car where they were almost got stepped out stepped on it get now

you know like all sorts of you know potential pandemonium associated with and a a liar snake prison Light was about to play the big practical joke on me. So I'm sitting facing a cut. So as I said, I moved it probably 20 feet down the road, having been sitting there maybe two or three feet from it as it's backed up into a cut. And then so they stopped.

One car had gone through and the guys were like, hey, what's that in the road back where it was? And the answer is it's a liar snake that had been hit and presumably on the light or to play the all time practical joke on me as I'm face forwarded to the Tiger-Rell snake, wanted to, was going to crawl up my back. For sure. It's probably to my benefit that the whole thing played out that way, but it was a huge bummer. So we've seen the Utah ones that Dustin turned up, but yeah, I haven't seen an Arizona one

yet I don't think. At least not a lot. I've seen live ones, but not in terms of finding them ourselves on our trips. Yeah, that's yeah, I guess maybe another benefit too of those photographs is like a lot of times I want to print them out and put them on the wall or something like that, you know, and if they're on your iPhone, you're probably not going to have very large photos of your photography. And I guess depending on what year you're using or something, but that's another nice thing. You can adorn your walls with your own photographs and really capture that moment and cement that moment in time.

You can look back at the pictures and remember. And I think that's really nice thing to be able to do is have that option. Yeah. You guys might be swaying me. Well, and of course, the other part of it that plays out, and this is Justin's story, but I'll lead him into it, is that if only we knew what the final tally or the final results of either action would be. Right, right. And just talking about your WA woman, right? Where it's like, okay, you took good pictures,

but at the same time, the desire to, oh, maybe I'll see something else, you then. Yeah, right, yeah. We kind of hit one, or came upon one just right on the outskirts of town. And it was on this famous stretch where you can find both blackheads and womas. And we were thinking, Oh, well, you know, if this is the way the night starting out, it was just after dusk, just on the other, we're just getting into road cruising phase. I'm like, Oh, you know, this is going to be epic night. And that was like the only snake we saw.

It was pretty dead after that. And so, you know, we, uh, so knowing, you know, having, if, if I would have known that we weren't going to find anything else, I probably would have spent hours with that snake, you know, and say, let's get on the road and find more. It's really hard to predict. So I guess we could have, if Rob was there, we could have left get on the road and find more. It's really hard to predict. So I guess we could have, if Rob was there, we could have left him with the snake and gone up the road to, you know, 10 minutes and come back or something. But, you know, so I do regret that.

So on this latest trip, we found a Walmart as well in central Australia. We spent probably two hours with that, you know, just kind of watching it and taking pictures and things like that. And it was typical Walmart. Didn't want to sit still and didn't, you know, just kind of watching it and taking pictures and things like that. It was typical Woma didn't want to sit still and didn't, you know, just kind of had to follow it and wait for it to, you know, kind of stop for a minute and take some pictures. But so cool. That happened to me last year where I had a friend come out to Kansas specifically to see a timber and we did not find a timber and it irritated me to no end because I took him near a dense site so I'm like I trust this guy this is a gimme. So later on I'm like you know what I gotta go find a timber and within 20 minutes of hitting the road the timber a fisherman's tail it was this one ever. But it's very good sex timber and we're high fiving and already like come on we gotta go we gotta go we gotta go find more. Yeah wouldn't

you know it after the next four hours we'd seen one timber rattlesnake and uh much like you if I had appreciated the moment a little more and taken some photographs, it might have been a better night, but I was a little too impatient. And of course, yeah. And there are times like the Hilo monster story that Justin mentioned, where obviously the first Hilo was awesome, and it's cool that then you guys have seen that three or four times over all these years and stuff. And so it was cool for that to be a first one. But in terms of sort of being photogenic and beautiful, the one that you went off to find

and found was a much younger animal and just the vibrancy. The body form was immaculate, just like perfect, just textbook Utah, perfect healer monster. So if your impatience didn't come into play, I'd have been happy to see one, but it's the old man in the desert, you know, this kind of a little bit beaten down and we know that he's been around a long time as opposed to the one that you found that was probably just on adult and exquisite. Yeah. Perfect.

Perfect animal. adult and exquisite. Yeah. Perfect. Perfect animal. And similar with that was the clob in Arizona where Owen found that clobber eye and it was kind of a smaller individual. And then and I kind of jokingly said, well, I'm just going to go find a better one. I'll find a bigger one or something. And then sure, you know, sure enough, I walked over and, and I, it was actually in some artificial cover, but it was between like a sandwich. So it was inside the, this piece of metal. And so I like kind of lifted it and there was nothing under it. But then I set it down and I heard a rattle. I'm like, what was that? It's inside it. So, you know, took it took a little careful manipulation to get that snake to kind of drop out or whatever. But yeah, that was kind of that same kind of thing where, you know, let's... So there are times where it pays off. Yeah. And I suppose the point is, and maybe that's half the fun of doing it in groups and when

you can accommodate different preferences, you know, I guess maybe that's half the fun of doing it in groups and when you can accommodate different preferences, you know I guess maybe that's the lesson we've learned and I have really come to appreciate is saying like I will say I don't want to I don't want the feeling of feeling like I'm burdening your experience So you guys go and then we'll you know, I'm happy to take that loss Should you then walk shortly away? Oh, I didn't wasn't there to see it You know find it on the initial discovery or whatever like I'm happy to play to my preference and then simultaneously not be impinging on your experience. Sure. Yeah. I think too, I think there is something to be said about having that patience and not

necessarily just to get a good picture, but also just to enjoy the animal and, you know, granted it is, it is difficult because yeah, you want to go find the next one. But a lot of times, like, especially local herping where, you know, I'm, I've seen a bunch of the stuff that it's in my area. It's not like it's some new, you know, like you're kind of used to it or you've seen, you know, X number before or whatever. So it is kind of commonplace, but at the same time you can kind of, you're not so like, Oh, I got to get pictures of this thing.

I got to pose it up and sit it in the right position and, and sit there and take, you know, pictures from every angle for the next two hours. You can just kind of take your voucher shot or even not take a shot and just watch the animal and enjoy what it's doing and maybe see some natural history or something. You know, like I think that appeals to me as well, you know, and it's, I guess it's hard when you're flying halfway across the world to find some of these things. You, you do want to find everything you can and, you know, kind of have the, you know, let's split up into two different groups. You go that way. We'll go this way, see what we can, you know, stay on the radio or whatever. But,

and sometimes that, that bites you in the butt too, because we, the, the other car that I was not in found this beautiful Western Brown snake. That was that, you know, the black headed, uh, orange form, the, they're just gorgeous. And you know, everybody of course wants to see that form, but they found it and they were playing with it trying to radio us and you know, they were out of range or something. So we didn't get to see that animal. So, you know, there are those kind of, you know, Rob's coral snake is another good example to like, sometimes the it's not worth the risk to try to pose it or get a picture. And it's just the experience, you know, we saw this and that was, you know, I know I saw a coral, but you know, I have no evidence to. Right. I know what day it was, you know, but I still, it still needs photo. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. And things like that. I mean, you don't want to be getting bit by a coral snake out in the middle of Florida somewhere. And yeah, especially not a three footer that looks like a king snake. Yeah. It actually could bite you. As opposed to the one we found in Arizona that's there in New Mexico. There's no way to, yeah, it could have been. Yeah. But yeah, that's same kind of thing where, you know, in the, in the guys like

tried to keep it, corral it, or, you know, keep it out in the open as long as they could. But it just, it's going down a hole and we can't really stop it. You know, it's not worth the risk to try to stop it either. And, and of course, you know, if you get bit that, that kind of wrecks, you gotta go find a hospital instead of herping. And that's not great. And you don't want to say to your friend, you know, Hey, good luck, you know, draw straws to see who gets to miss out on herping to go to the hospital. So yeah, that's not the greatest thing either. So sometimes it's just not worth it to try to get a picture even if it's, you know, with your iPhone, you know, it's sometimes. But then again, like I've learned the hard way, like try to get the picture first

before you go for the grab. Because, you know, even when I have a nice camera, like I had an experience with a striped tail monitor in Western Australia, Catalini Otis, it was sitting just posed beautifully on a trunk of a tree, and it was like low on the tree, and it was in a position where I'm thinking, okay, I could probably grab there's this is probably a, a no risk situation. I'll catch it, then I'll pose it up and take, you know, but in reality, I should have taken 20 pictures while it was sitting in that pose. And instead, I'm like, Oh, monitor, grab it, you know, that kind of thing. And I went to grab it and I missed it. And it completely just disappeared. Luckily, my wife was there. And she's like, Yeah, I did see that lizard. Like, I'm like, luckily my wife was there and she's like, yeah, I did see that lizard. Like I'm like, you stole that, right? It was there, right?

Like, cause it was just vanished. Like I had no clue where it ran to or where it went. I'm just like scratching my head like an idiot. So yeah, take, take a picture first, even if it's just a little dumb voucher photo, but I should have sat there and taken 30 pictures and you know, I was young and wanted to grab everything or something. I don't know. Of course I didn't grab anything and, you know, I was young and wanted to grab everything or something.

I don't know. Of course I didn't grab anything in Australia because that's, that would be illegal. Yeah, only cane toads. I'm surprised they're not protected. Yeah. I was listening to Scott Eiffer talk about, you know, what you can and can't do in Australia. And I'm like, nobody abides by those rules. Why is that a rule? Nobody abides by them. And then they don't prosecute anybody for them either. So it's like, I don't know. It's kind of goofy.

There was a YouTube influencer, whatever you want to call him that was out in central Australia at the same time we were. And I actually was talking to the owner of the Alice Springs Reptile Center. He was talking to, they saw this guy out filming, you know, and harassing animals or whatever. And he'd found a centralian nobtail gecko and was like picking it up and talking about it for his channel and he was in a national park and they got film of him doing that and he's like, do you think you could delete that film? And it was some German group that had hired the, they paid the guy from the reptile center to go out and show them around or whatever. And they're like, nope, we're keeping blackmail. I don't know.

But you know, they're like, you know, we're doing a documentary on idiots handling reptiles that they shouldn't be handling. I don't know. You know, so of course you want to obey the rules and, you know, keep your, try to keep your distance and granted, you know, that's another thing about photography is like a lot of times we're finding it under a piece of garbage and then we're posing it in pristine habitat. And it kind of gives people the wrong idea of what's really going on.

Well, speaking of Australia and exactly on this point, is? As I know, Eric had mentioned this the first time we had gone. So we went up to Cairns and Cairns and surrounds. And he was insistent perpetually on looking for snakes amongst the buttress roots of trees, because well in Australia where you can't handle them, it's sort of a natural containment system. And it was, we were probably halfway through the trip and he was like, oh, they just put them there so that they don't move

it's like oh that's you need to be looking right here and it was like no that's more to do with how they were taking these photos than it is the natural condition right I had a friend tell me we were talking about Xanthusia and where he used to find them in California. I was like, oh, are these like rock escarpments? Like, you know, are you flipping? Like, how are you finding them? He's like, well, I go to the dump and I flip whatever's there like, okay, that's not really a little habitat. But no, it's funny. We get caught up doing these like what people want to see as far as like a habitat photo of the animal.

We even when we tried not to doctor it, we're doctoring it just a little bit, a little aesthetically pleasing. Yeah. Well, on that same trip on the way way out to Chile, there were a bunch of records on Atlas of Living Australia for, I think it was in Akinthor, no, StorEye. And I then was looking more closely at it combined with the, I mean, we have such greater tech now in terms of the way the outdoor app and Onyx app and these sorts of things where you can see land ownership and things or whatever. It's very clear to your point, Dave, that all these records are from the town dump,

tiny town with 15 houses. We had actually stopped off there to kind of see how does this look or whatever. And there was legitimately someone behind it peeking from behind the curtain, staring at us. And I was like, I don't think we're gonna do this, man. We should just keep going. There's another spot of a store ride

and it's all in a cemetery. So you've got posed up, gravestones and stuff. Like, where are we looking for? We look for something. Was that in Utah or no in Arizona, something down? Yeah. In Arizona on the first trip, there's some lizard that in the same way. Yeah.

It's in the, you know, this tiny, tiny verging on a, you know, ghost town style town, you know, all the names in the cemetery are the same last night. Oh, that's right. Whatever. But there's some lizard that lives there. And you guys were, you know, okay, we're going for it. And I'm like, I don't know, man. The leopard lizards out.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's like the easiest place to find them. They're just like running between the gravestones and stuff. When we were out East, we went to a trip in North Carolina way back. I can't remember if it was North Carolina or Tennessee now, but there was all of these pins for Eastern nukes. I was like, yeah, that's a gimme.

Like, I want to see an Eastern new before we go home. So we drive there. And what looks like a pond on iNaturalist is it's like this woodland living community of all these trailers around this, like, I don't know, in-ground stock tank. And so we're walking up and it's pretty weird. There's people watching us eating their lunch and we looked down and sure enough, there's just hundreds of Eastern newts in there. It's like, what do we do?

Die with me. Like, uh, they're like, he's like, net, get a photo and get out of here. So we just quickly like got them out there, snap. And we ran it. I don't, I don't know. That's when you, that's when you make friends with the locals. Hey, what's eating there? Photograph your newts. Yeah. All right.

Hey, what are you doing? We're like looking at sound manders, like, I just went back to eat and stared at us for like, all right. Well, that was that nice, uh, Western Brown is the guys were photographing it and, and it was in this canyon where there were also people's houses. And so people were stopping and Hey, what you doing? Like, Oh, just photographing a snake. And they're like, Oh yeah, we got a, we got a brettles in our backyard. You know, we see it, you know, every once in a while, like it's out in the pool or something. So yeah, it's kind of cool. But they're like, Oh, well, don't get bit. All right. See you.

Like, yeah, kind of crazy. They're like, you're a few weeks late for this one. We usually see it, you know, earlier in the year, late in the year. It's never when you're there, you know, right. Yeah. If only you were here this time. Yeah. That's, uh, I don't know. I, I think too, like, I was getting a little, little sick of hearing all the camera part names and all, you know, like the lens names and the different ranges and stuff. Like it was just like, okay guys, yeah. Okay. We get it. Your photo nerds. But yeah, that stuff just went on and on and on and on and on and on. And then I was like, okay, guys, yeah, okay. We get it. Your photo nerds.

But yeah, that stuff just went right over my head. I had no clue what they were talking about. So it was like frustrating that I couldn't join in on a conversation because I liked to talk too much or something. But yeah, it was like, and, and also the cost of things. I know like the, the new mirrorless cameras are at least a couple thousand dollars for a decent body with a full sensor and stuff like that. And it's pricey. It's kind of hard to keep up sometimes. And then the lenses, you want a really nice lens and the glass really makes

a difference. And so yeah, you're going to shell out a lot of money. I know Jordan moved from, you know, kind of the typical DSLR to mirrorless. And he said it was really expensive. And for Jordan to say something's really expensive, that's like, Whoa, it must be really expensive. So yeah, I, I don't know that I can afford to make the jump now, but at the same time, like, I think there's less expensive options that can still do, like you said, you know, yeah, you might get a little bitter, little better quality or a little more fine tuning or whatever, like nippers, Grand Canyon photos compared to yours, but is it really that much better? You know, is it, is it000, $10,000 better? Yeah, I don't know.

Yeah. I mean, I've been super happy with mine. Knock on wood, obviously, to the extent it's done great for going on. Well, this will be six years. And honestly, so I started like you guys. I hadn't bought a new camera in 15 years or whatever, and I brought something. I think Scott literally laughed when I pulled out what I had. Chris Salemi had gone with us, and he had more closer to what Aspen or Jordan has in terms of all these different lenses and all this different stuff. A big part of that became, well, so then Chris wasn't going back in 2019 It was like well, he had kind of filled that role to two things I would say right is there's some idea of like sharing photos in the sense of oh Well, Justin you'll take the photos and all have gone on the trip and you'll send them to me and I can enjoy that

You know, but it's it's not the same as being able to it's not your photo, you know You don't feel as Carefree about sharing it and things like that. Yeah. Exactly right. It's just that extra level of complexity that can be a little off putting. So it was like, okay, well, I'm going to try and find the thing, but what's the best thing that's both easy to use for someone who's not well-versed in this stuff and has the capacity to take photos of something macro, you know, or soup, not necessarily the macro in the sense of being massive, you know, a one-inch lizard that looks, you know,

a seven inches, you know, on your screen or whatever. But, you know, in terms of that range from that to something that's when we're talking monitors, right, so much of it is that like, in that sense, Chris's photo of our spotted tree monitor from that first trip, I had found the lizard, but my camera, you couldn't even see it. So we needed Chris's picture with this crazy lens to be able to make it out and say, oh, this is the Coranda form, spotted tree monitor or whatever.

And so he wasn't coming. So it's like, well, what's what makes sense here? That also, it's your point about being portable and carrying it around and all this stuff. And it was like, well, I found this thing for, you know, 1500 bucks or whatever that goes 24 to 600, you know, and is not as good, you know, in so many ways, it's not as good. But I've been super, I think it's where I want to be. You know, it's the fanciest point and shoot camera you can buy. And I think that's too something that's, you know, again, today, Dave side, like learning all the tech that goes along with it, you know, what f-stop you need and how much light and all that kind of stuff. And I don't know,

I tried to mess with that stuff and I tried to, my brother and dad tried to instruct me on it and it just kind of went in one ear and out the other. And so at the end of the day I was just like, okay, I'm spending all this money on a nice camera and then I'm not taking so many pictures anyway. Yeah. And so I'm just turning it to auto and then snapping. It's like, well, what's the difference between that and an iPhone? You know, not, not much if you're not really willing to learn and to develop the techniques. And then two, I found like, like you're saying a little bit, like you're kind of just copying somebody else's, I don't want to just take the

same pictures as everybody else necessarily. You know, you see all the cool shots with like the habitat and then it's like fisheye with the snake there and they're really cool. But then like everybody does the same thing and it's like, well, then it just becomes the, you know, kind of mundane or whatever. Anyway. Right. I don't know. And, and two, to your point about photo sharing, I've gone on a lot of trips where like, oh yeah, we'll, we'll share photos. And then you never really share photos, I think one trip we did is because we stayed in a hotel before we flew out the next morning and we just got our memory cards and uploaded to our

laptops or something. So we all had each other's photos and videos and things like that. So, but like you said, you don't really, I'm not posting, you know, Steve's photos or anything like that. Yeah. I just use my own from that trip, but you know, he has some that are better and look, look cooler or something. You're better lighting or, you know, better angle or whatever. So, yeah, just, but I don't know. That said, I've't know that said,

I've got thousands upon thousands of photos that I probably have, I've looked at maybe once or twice and then they just kind of sit in cyberspace or whatever. So that's the other side of taking a lot of photos is- Well, yeah, you're exactly on it. Delete them or whatever too. Is you're saying, is, you know, delete them or whatever too. Is you're saying, oh, you know, because I know we've done a ton of trips together and it's like, oh, we haven't shared photos.

And the answer is almost certainly because I take so many photos that then I ultimately don't process them in a realistic amount of time. Certainly not in the day or even day or even weeks. Often I try and spend my winter going through them, but then if you're busy or whatever, it doesn't even happen. I have unprocessed photos from three or four years ago, because when I'm barraging it where it's like, okay, because I don't know those peculiarities of the camera, it's like, okay, I'm just getting there through pure volume. Whereas like, I'm going to take 40 pictures volume, where it's like, 40 pictures of this

one, from this thing. And then you have to, it's like an eye test, you're A, B testing all this stuff through. Better, worse, better, worse. Exactly. And much better. And so I still have some from our trip when we first went to California, what was that, 22? Something like that, that it's, yeah, still haven't gone through. I've gone through them. I have the general range, but it's sort of then,

it's like, okay, am I doing this one or the more recent thing or whatever? I guess maybe the, I need to do those in season two because there's something, and maybe this is a topic for a future show, but there's so much pressure amongst the Herper bros at this point to not post things as you're finding them, which I understand. I understand that side of it saying, especially in certain places where it's very clear then

where that would be from, is it's kind of setting a little roadmap for the next person, or particularly in like, yeah, I just saw this today. You can come tomorrow and maybe you can see it as well as opposed to if you're posting in December or something from Manny or whatever. Yeah. Right. You know, maybe I do need to be posting stuff from 2022 as this year. And that's frustrating too, because like a lot of times I'm looking for that intel, you know, like watching people's YouTube videos and like, when was this filmed? Like this is when I need to be in Australia or whatever. Right.

You know, they're fine. Not as in a, I need to follow what they did next week. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm just trying to get the context for this. Was this photo, did you take this in May or June or is this from, in that instance, March? Right. Exactly.

Yeah. And I do like, like on Flickr where they have the date the photo was taken, you know, so at least you know, they're not giving out the where it was taken, but they're giving out the date it was taken. So you like, okay, at least they're finding this species on this day of the year. And so I know where to find the species. Now I just need to know which day to shoot for. I don't know what know what time frame. So yeah, it's kind of fun. Well, any other pressing photo related things? I think I do like the, I guess, power that it puts in your hand, the new tech, you know, all the mirrorless stuff, like you can get better photos in lower light and things like that. It's really kind of a cool thing. I do think it's neat when people are, you know, real photographers, but sometimes that can be a little hectic to be, you know, with real photographers.

I mentioned my cousin who's a semi professional photographer, my dad went on a trip with him and they were going, you know, to, uh, one of the national parks in Utah. And, and my cousin was setting up a shot. He'd like researched it, wanted to get this shot and at the right time of day, you know, the right lighting. So he sets up his camera and he's waiting and they're there for hours to get one scene shot, you know, scenery shot. And my dad turns around and he looks and there's this just beautiful sunset, you know, with all the rock formations and everything. He's like, oh my goodness. And so he's taking pictures and looking around. My cousin didn't, I think he

might've glanced back and said, oh yeah, that's nice. And then he went back to like just waiting for that perfect light to click the shutter, you know, crazy. Yeah, I've been on a few trips. I just get way too impatient. Yeah, I know for me, I think to go back to not the photo. I hate being bogged down by too much when I'm out of herping. I know what when I'm in the car, I if I see something moving across the road, I want to be able to get out there as fast

as possible and not have like a giant pack. Like those, I don't know if a personal experience those cameras look heavy and they're like pretty decent size bags. Like I don't want to be swinging that thing haphazardly, but I want to get the snake really fast. So I don't know. I already struggled to haphazardly, but I want to get the snake really fast So I don't know I already struggled to get my hook and then I've got a little mount that I can put my iPhone on and quickly grab both of those bolts, but I don't know I think

Less is more when it comes to being able to get out there and catch it or when you've got a Heated up collar lizard on a rock and it's not put staying still I want to be able to just corral it really quick and get a quick voucher shot and then give up on it basically. Yeah, why put the animal and I guess there could be some of that you know where are we are we wearing out our welcome? Have we had our experience with this animal? You know, like, are we, are we negatively impacting the animal by, you know, we flipped it under a rock and now we're setting it in the sun or something like, you know, we should be aware of those kinds of considerations too.

And granted, it's probably less of an issue if you're out, you know, in the middle of the night on the road or something, you know, you're moving it off the road into safety and kind of taking some pictures after that. But that could be a consideration as well. Following laws in different states or different countries, are you allowed to manipulate the animals or touch them at all? Or West Texas, you're not technically supposed to road cruise. You're only supposed to hike them up on cuts or whatever on the side of the road. You're not supposed to stop your car and get the snake off the road. You have to sit and wait for the snake to crawl off the road, technically, if you're following the law to the letter or whatever.

So, granted again, is anybody ever doing that or they're just jumping out and moving the snake off the road? But I mean, 99 out of 100, you're probably fine. It's one out of 100 that we hear. That's actually a plastic snake and there's wild guys waiting in the bushes with your ticket. Yeah. And it's not a cheap ticket. You could have bought a mirrorless camera with that ticket. camera with that. So yeah, and I don't know, I've gone through kind of different tech, you know, like, I'll buy a drone or something, because I'm thinking, oh, I'm going to use this drone, get some cool footage, you know, aerial footage, or, or come down

on a lizard or a snake or something. And then I do that. And it's like, no, that's not what I thought it would be. Maybe the drones that they're using for those wildlife shows are not this drone or whatever. And so, you know, then it kind of falls into obscurity and I don't use it very often. And I just wasted a couple hundred bucks or whatever. Yeah. So there's that too.

You know, if you're not using the tech correctly, you might as well stick to your iPhone because, you know, it's just as good to get a picture versus no picture. Jordan did have kind of a cool harness that he could click his camera to and he said it didn't like it wasn't a burden you know wasn't weighing him you know hanging down off his neck because that's the thing that I had never liked was if I had my big you know DSLR it was hanging around my neck the big lens on it was you know weighing it down, it was hanging around my neck. The big lens on it was weighing it down and it was uncomfortable. And then if I tried to climb or something, it's swinging around and hitting the lens on the rocks or things like that. Just not the best. I

wasn't as agile and I couldn't get around and go grab that snake or catch that lizard or whatever, because I was worried about damaging my camera in that action or whatever, because I was worried about damaging my camera in the in that action or whatever. And I remember one time I was jumping out of a vehicle to go see there was a blotch blue tongue on the on the road and saw and yeah, and I jumped out of the car and knocked my camera out of the car and it landed on the road. I'm like, I just wasted a grand. Luckily the camera was okay until I fried it in Northern Australia a year later or whatever. So, but yeah, that kind of thing either damaging it from dropping or smashing it or through heat damage, which turns out to be much worse in my case than the physical damage. So you know are you just wasting money if you're not attentive or you forget to make it out of the

car or something like that. So yeah that can be rough too because I usually don't forget my phone. I don't leave my phone in the car because you're so tied to our phones that you're not doing that. The camera you have with you is the best camera you write. If you always have a camera in your pocket, you're kind of set. It's a little bit easier, a little bit more likely. I would say that I think the biggest pro for it really, and you're not least to blame for this is just the idea that like, I don't know, even in this day as we're moving away from printing books, I'm sure that's going to be even more difficult going forward. I don't know if you guys caught Craig Trumbauer was on Corn Stars on the Herp Network show

with Chris Painshopab and a couple folks. But anyway, he was talking about actually explicitly the feasibility of printing books because the best print houses are in China and all this fiasco in terms of just affordability of doing it, the actual practicalities of it. But I would say that the idea that your friends might write a book, heck, I even sent Craig a picture of my life for Florida pine snake. And I'm sure he didn't need it, won't use it

because he spent all that time for it. I just got plenty of those. But the idea that like, oh, my picture could be in a book, let alone many pictures. And then it turns into maybe, we should do a book. You find all the venomous reptiles of the US, all the forms of the reptiles of the US, and then that's your book.

And entirely done like, well, here's the pictures of, here you go. I've seen them, here's my photos of all of them. And here's a story of how I got that photo. Here's the narrative of what that entailed. Because maybe a thing that I know we've hit on before, and David, it fits into the box of saying maybe not sharing the photos is so many times, especially in the social media context, the payback or the payoff of sharing those photos doesn't do justice to what it

took to do that, either in terms of the planning on the front end, the effectuate, what it took, the toil, or then like sort of the joy. All of it is diminished when I share some, what to me is objectively a beautiful photo of an animal that we went halfway around the world to see and worked really hard to find. And then you get 20 likes on it or something. And it's just, this is actually diminishing my,

you have to be in a proper Zen spot or it could be really kind of do your head in of like really all of that. And that's 20 likes or whatever, as opposed to the wanker holding the AMA. You know, it's like, you know, that's tens of thousands or whatever. Yeah, yeah.

He just made tens of thousands of dollars off of that video or something. It is kind of crazy. And I think too, I think with the advent of this camera gear, everybody can be a semi-professional photographer. It definitely has sort of leveled that field. Yeah. Yeah. Reiterating your point about like the amazing, you know, when we're talking about Ziegler-Schinsky, you know, Bob Zappalordi had mentioned when we were talking about, you know, and he's talking about Zieg and how he literally did that as his career after he left the Staten Island Zoo, right? You know, he's represented from animals animals. And that's why you see

in our old books, you know, going from, I don't know what the mid 90s back, I would be like, you would see all these same, that was part of what was so fascinating is like, you know, is it Gleszczynski and all this stuff. And it's because he literally had a firm that was out there marketing his photos and saying like, okay, you're doing a field guide to reptiles to the US. Yeah, absolutely. We can put 75 of his photos into that book, you know, it makes his living doing that. That's amazing It's pretty cool and it's really difficult these days to you know, yeah It's really possible, you know in that same way, you know, because it's the playing field is so level which is good and bad, man

Yeah, I guess if you're really good herper and you're finding stuff that other people aren't but then again How many people are gonna care about that photo, enough to pony up 80 bucks and print it out or whatever. That's few and far between for sure. And most people are like, well, yeah, you can use my photos. That's fine. Right. You've seen it with the books, even in the context of saying compared to, so for the Audubon Field Guide, where I'm talking about when we were talking with Zig, where he's literally making his living based on them including those photos in that book, I know you've run into all sorts

of the politics. Yeah. A bit of that for sure. Oh, did we lose you? You're back. Yeah. The politics of, oh, can I use your photos or include my photos or what it nowadays it's the honor is on the person who took the photo that the photos being included as opposed to vice versa. Right.

You know, I'm super when you guys put out your Utah book, I'll be thrilled that however many photos there are, I'll be that many times thrilled about that it happens, but it's just a completely opposite mentality and mindset. Yeah. Well, we're looking at the same problem of publishing that book. It's stuck and I don't know when it's going to be able to move forward. I'm really bummed out about that. I talked to Zach Lofman and he's out of copies of his book and they were going to order another print run and it was going to cost, I I think four times as much to print them now with these tariffs and everything. So kind of a bummer. I hope things get resolved soon and we can get back to it. Well, if anything, it's unstable, which means that it could change tomorrow. Yeah, exactly. Is the damage done? And is that, you know, who knows, but we won't get into that.

Cause like my blood quickly. Yeah. But yeah, I do think there's definitely, you know, a place for, for really good photographs. And I think it, you know, like we've seen here, it definitely depends on your personality. And you know, if you're ADD, like me and Dave, onto the next one, let's find another one, you know, then maybe that's not necessarily for us, but if you're somebody patient like Rob, who can take a thousand photos of the same animal, then you know, getting that volume content to get just the right shot, then more power to you too.

I think there's room for all sorts. And I do think it's, you know, a good thing to have those photogs on your trip, you know, like, so you can maybe see those really nice photos and it's your good friend that took it. And so he might not be opposed to sharing a photo or two, you know, with you. And especially if you want to print something out or something like that. So, yeah, absolutely.

But, and I guess we can all look back on our old photographs and be like, oh, those are terrible because it wasn't as good. And now the text good and it makes everything look good or something. But who knows in another 30 years, we're going to be looking back on what we're doing now. I mean, oh, that's terrible. I guess there's a style. And, you know, I guess tech kind of captures that time and place, but it's hard to imagine that it's going to get much better than it is now. Yeah. And I was surprised to find out. Oh dang it. I don't know why I start a story without thinking of the name first, but super fantastic photos. He's Australian. I could probably look him up real quick, but anyway, he, he, Rob, Ross McGibbon. No he's he's excellent as well but this guy's like they almost look like valentic Rob Valentic yeah they almost look like

super processed Jordan told me he goes out with like suitcases of kit and this is just lighting and he's not he's not editing them to look like this this is lighting and it's incredible. And he's like, it's like next level photography skills, the stuff he's doing. So yeah, I just thought, oh, man, he's really bumping up the saturation. But no, he's he's actually capturing the the actual saturation of his of his subject. So I was I was happy to learn that that he wasn't just

like, yeah, Photoshopping of them. So kind of cool. My eye twitches at the thought of how much patience it takes to do that. Good. Good on him. I mean, that is a that is a talent to itself. I mean, corralling the snake and then putting all your equipment up. My goodness. I can't imagine. Yeah, he has a mobile photo studio, basically, and just Yeah, he has a mobile photo studio basically, and just takes shots and I, you know, I really do enjoy like the new tech and like I was watching the Americas that program that's on the just one of the major networks out there but I was watching the one on the Andes

and they had that the salt plane lizard footage. Oh my gosh, it was incredible. Like how close up they can get on these little lizards and the fights and just the crisp clear image of these two small lizards battling it out. Incredible. Like just the footage they can get these days. So yeah, I'm glad that things like Planet Earth

and have kind of utilized this new tech to just bring us some like that Galapagos footage of the race you're chasing, the little marine iguanas was the most incredible thing I've ever seen. It was compelling. Yeah. Oh my goodness. And just the quality and the

composition and everything and to be able to capture that, you know, in the wild is just next level. So well and the fact that they can capture that really is giving giving truth to the character of those things that otherwise we would not recognize or know or we would otherwise ignore. I mean, I wasn't familiar with that whole drama as it unfolds. So the ability for them to capture that and present it to us informed me that it even exists. In the same way where we say like, it's almost things are diminished by being common in the hobby or trivialized or whatever. And it's like, they're all amazing creatures. you know, and it's because we don't, we're failing to see it.

It's not that they aren't amazing. It's that we're failing to see it either because we're a nerd to it by seeing it over and over, or, you know, we're just not seeing what they actually do. Right. Or we don't, you know, I've never been to the Andes or, you know, and this is like some, you know, salt plain, like high up in the Andes or you know and this is like some you know salt plain like high up in the mountains or you know why would you go there exactly yeah I've never heard of the salt plain lizard that they were talking about but granted I you know I googled it first you know as soon as they said the name I'm like get that up you know there was a duck that they photographed

up there too like apparently the this river runs through this geothermal area so the the the water heats up above 100 degrees you know fahrenheit and and they're swimming through it they have these big old feet they're just beautiful ducks and they're ducklings they're like they're trying to get these ducklings to navigate this raging river that's 120 degrees yeah just insane stuff insane stuff. Like, how did I not know this was a thing? You know, like these are beautiful animals and doing some like just insane behaviors and, and in weird environments, there were three species of flamingo that were in these this red caustic lake that nothing else lives in except their food, you know, some microbe

that they sift out of the water and three species of flamingo. And they're doing like these little dances. And I'm like, this is just incredible. And they have like just super high definition up close footage of these things. And you know, they're like sitting on the shore, you know, a mile away getting capturing this It's incredible. And the drones, they're talking about developing new photography method or instrumentation to actually photograph them without disturbing them. So the drones are super high up, but they're zooming in on these wild dogs hunting as a pack

that you couldn't do if you were trying to follow them in a truck or whatever. Like you can get in a drone a mile up and get them. It's incredible. Yeah, so I am very appreciative of the new photography tools in the hands of a professional wildlife photographer. Next level, I could watch that program over and over and just geek out on on the salt plane lizard, you know, or the the ducks or something. So awesome. Well, we hit all our photography topics. I'm sure there's things we missed. If you heard something, you're like, Hey, you didn't discuss this. Hit us up. Come come fight with us sometime.

But we definitely appreciate you coming on Dave and talking with us and talking photography and your herping experiences. It's been really great. Uh, catching up and, and hearing your stuff. So thank you. Yeah. Thank you guys for having me on. I appreciate it. Sorry. I didn't have a lot of photography thoughts. I was pretty blunt on mine. Just I'm impatient. Yeah. And I think maybe Rob should have battled you because I think we're almost on the same wavelength there. That's why I thought it'd be fun. I was like, I want to hear what he has to say. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. Well, maybe we do have a part two with Rob fighting instead. Well, there you go.

No, I thought you did really well. You know, I think, I think that was most of it, you know, right? Cause it does come down to me to sort of personal taste and whether the end results is what, you know, what, what you're looking for, right? Was the end result the experience of doing it or is it that, but as much being able to try and remember it based on seeing your photos and things and oh yeah, that beautiful.

And is that fulfilled by, oh there it was, or is it, yeah, I need the beautiful photo or I'm gonna just instead be looking at the photo saying, the scales slightly out of the eye is slightly out of focus. Oh my gosh, it's driving me crazy or whatever. So again, personality types and things. So it does bother me when I take like 30 photos of something and I think, oh, I look at it on my phone. I'm like, oh yeah, it looks good.

And then I get at home and look at it on the screen, you know, the computer or something. I'm like, Oh, they're all out of focus. Like they're all terrible. You know, not terrible because they still do that experience. But it's like, ah, shoot, you know, I wish I would have tried higher, you know, more lighting or something, you know. And I think if I were to get, you know, another DSLR or mirrorless or whatever, a more professional camera, I would probably want to find something simple where I could have like one lens and the camera body and a flash and then like know how to do the shot that gets, you know, that I'm excited about every time. You know, just kind of like do the same shot.

Okay. If it's nocturnal, this is what I do. If it's during the day, here's what I do. You know, that kind of thing where it's like more simple kind of my, my level, my skill level, rather than like, I'm going to dial in the F stop and, you know, I got a meter, the, you know, the white balance or whatever. Like, I just want to be able to to roll in, take some nice shots, and then be good.

But maybe that's not possible. I don't know. Right? Yeah. Maybe auto setting in the future will be so good that you won't even know anything. I can just be an idiot and push the button. I do kind of like to compose a shot, you know, like I think if

you lay down and you get a good angle or you know that kind of stuff, but yeah, yeah. Jump, jump back into it. But where can people find you? They can find me on Instagram at Kelly underscore herpilogical. I think that's the best place to find me these days. Yeah, I don't post a lot on Facebook anymore for no other reason that I'm lazy. But it's such a positive place as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. If you wanna see just photographs from an iPhone

of captive and wild herbs, Instagram's the place to find me. Okay, yeah, well there is a button you can click to just have it automatically go to Facebook too. So if you're, if you're lazy, you can just click that button once and post them both places at once. I did find that recently and that has made things easier. Yeah. Cause I, I do, I, I do think that people see it on, you know, one place and not the other. So at least you can share that experience with your like-minded friends in both places.

It does seem like maybe people see your stuff on Facebook more than they do on Instagram. That's my own. Not that I basically don't post on Facebook at all at this point, but just that was my experience of it. I do think, and presumably it's all this sort of metered stuff based on if you're paying to sponsor things or whatever. So I think Facebook maybe is more lenient or will show more people without engaging that sort of stuff.

I do think if you've like engaged with that person recently, you have a much better chance of seeing, because like there's friends that I probably haven't seen stuff from them for And I don't know if they're just not posting or the algorithms not giving it to me, you know, that kind of thing. So, yeah, kind of tricky. If you search for somebody else, and you're seeing their stuff all the time, you know, like, I just wondered what they were doing. I don't want to see all their stuff all the time. I just realized I disagree with them on everything they stand for. Cool. Well, I don't know if I should even keep doing this, but I always kind of ask people if they've seen anything really cool in herpetology or herpetoculture lately that they just want to

share at the end. I think I kind of got mine out of the way with the nature footage on the Americas. There's some really, really cool footage in that show. And I'm excited. They have a scene where a salamander is jumping off a log and kind of floating down. I'm like, okay, I got to watch that one too next. You know, that's my next view. But the Americas, I just love wildlife and just watching that stuff. It's been really cool. So Oh, I think mine isn't so much visual as I read a paper recently about the Malpello galli wasps, difficult losses, milliputatus. I learned that they live on this horrible little rock island with nothing on it. So they're eating crustaceans and whatever other thing they can find there. But the most interesting part of the paper to me was that the lizards have learned that the cries of the infant blue-footed boobies

means that the mother or the father are coming to give them food. So the lizards will bum rush the approaching parent where they regurgitate fish. Yeah. Um, and the lizards then grab the fish and scurry off into the rock crevices. No way. And eat this little regard. Yeah. I don't know. That is the most fascinating and strange thing I've ever heard. Wow. Planet Earth, if you're listening, get that footage. How cool would that be? That was the other thing with these salt plane lizards is they had footage of them feeding and apparently like,

there's nothing but brine flies in these salts. So they're just like rushing the massive brine flies with their tongue out trying to grab one or something. It's so, so great. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. I still, you know, that footage of the, which species of lizard was that jumping on the lions, trying to catch flies on the lions back, um, on one of the planet earths, uh, the really colorful, um, rock flat rock lizards. What, what are they called? The, oh my gosh, that's failing me, but they're brightly colored and just, yeah. Oh, I was talking about it. It was like everywhere for a while. That was, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, graves or something like that. Anyway, sorry.

Yeah. All right. Any, any other stuff that's cool? Any cool podcasts or anything? Well, that one with Craig that I mentioned, uh, was really cool. You know, and they went long, you know, Craig tells great stories and a lot of them were things that, you know, haven't been put out there before and things. So I think he went to basically three hours maybe past three hours even of just

really cool stuff you know and such a great dude so yeah I think I would stick there. That's cool. I listened to Ryan's episode and heard about his next trip out with Chris. I have to listen to that one. That one was pretty cool uh, pretty cool. It was kind of funny. The, I guess, you know, I hear that and I go, you know, bucket list. That sounds fantastic. Go see all these tree monitors and stuff. And the guys that were interviewing him were like, no way, if there's no AC in the hotel, then I'm not there. Oh my gosh. Like, come on guys. Like, yeah, you gotta be uncomfortable a little bit, but think about what you're gaining. You know, you're seeing all this cool stuff, but yeah,

they weren't, they weren't into that at all. They were not into it. I think Bill Stiegel was like, hard pass. Like I've done that. I'm too old for that crap. Oh man. I, I, I hope I never, you know, get to that point where I don't want to go chase some wild herb, because it's too uncomfortable. Absolutely. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks for coming on and being here.

This was a lot of fun and thank you guys for listening. Thanks to Eric and Owen and glad Eric's doing better. He was having a rough go at work there for a bit. So glad he's back in the saddle and Oh, their, uh, their interview too was fantastic with Ari and hearing about good enough island. And yeah, it was really neat. So thanks for having, having Ari come on and talk about that. That's, that's another kind of like exciting, like exploration,

you know, how cool that be to get out and do that kind of stuff. But so yeah, thanks guys. Keep up the good work and thanks for housing our little podcast under your umbrella. But all right, we'll catch you again next time for Reptile.