Reptile Fight Club - What are a breeder's responsibilities? W/ Paul Duren

Episode Date: February 28, 2025

In this episode, Justin and Rob are joined by Paul Duren to debate what a breeder's responsibilities are.Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comIGFollow Rob @ https://www.instagram.com/highplainsherp/Follow MPR Network @FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQSwag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

all right welcome to another episode of reptile fight club Club. Back at it. I'm Justin Julander and with me as always is Rob Stone. How you doing, Rob? Uh-oh. Rob froze. That's a bad omen for the start here. I was waiting for the ahoy hoy, but it never came. I just see Rob's blank stare back at me. But tonight we've got Paul Duren, so I'll say hello to you, Paul. How are you doing? I'm great. Thanks.

Excellent. No, I'm excited to be here. It is pretty funny to just start right off with Rob's blank face there. Yeah. Well, and he's probably talking and recording on the on the other end so right um eric might have to work this one out a little but uh just kind of cut out rob's here because we can't hear him but um yeah it'll be the sausage making in action exactly yeah um seems like rob's had a few technical difficulties i think the signal strength on his end gets a little weak sometimes or he's complained about some of the service in his area has been kind of iffy.

So he'll probably jump back on his phone and use his cellular signal instead. Great. Come in and out. Yeah. Well, how are you doing? Welcome to the show, and thanks for coming on. Paul wrote in a nice suggestion of a topic. And so, you know, as always, we invite people to come on and discuss those topics or the ideas they have. So we're glad that Paul accepted the invitation to come and fight.

So looking forward to chatting with you today. Absolutely. There he is. Hey, sorry about that. Oh, no worries. No worries. Oh, good. The echo cancellation button.

Is there one? No, hold on. Okay. Yeah, we sat and looked at you frozen for a bit there. So that was off to a great start, right? Oh, no. Now he's gone. Oh, man.

Poor Eric. Yeah. Well, we'll work it all out. Yeah. Yeah. So is that better? Or I might need to reload it on my side. I can still hear myself echoing.

But other than that, we can see it. Yeah. I get it. I get it. Hold on. All right. Yeah. Maybe Eric can cut some of this out. But not you know this is uh right out of the

gate exactly away it goes sometimes it's really frustrating yeah we were chatting a little bit beforehand and rob was just fine and then as soon as yeah everything was good yeah that seems to be how it goes uh as of late so yeah i don't know it's hard when it's uh yeah on the signal side or whatever is it still repeating still the echo i thought there was oh no that's the old one you're thinking of i just needed it's because i had the headphones on the computer and it's just not loaded. Right. So I'll be back. I'm here. Okay. That sounds good.

All right. Well, um, yeah, well, I don't hear the echo now. I mean, I guess he's leaving. So we'll see. He can't do this for me. Yeah. Oh, geez. Um, oh man.

Yeah. Well, um, why don't you tell a little bit about yourself, uh, how you fit into herpetoculture and that kind of thing? Sure. So I'm a keeper in Seattle. I have a very small collection, just a handful of animals. uh a mexican pine snake northern mexican pine snake um uh a calatoa retic and uh an adult pair of scrub pythons uh which i recently bred and i currently have still have their babies uh most of them are going to be going out over the next month or two so cool amethystina or which yeah yeah so uh so southern's um and uh super fun super fun we did um maternal incubation and oh wow nice uh that was great yeah yeah i think i heard your interview on uh must have been

with uh the scrub shepherd himself yeah yeah that i was very honored. Um, but, um, no, super, super fun. Um, yeah. Very cool. Yep. Rare that you, you hear about maternally incubated scrub pythons in, in herpetoculture. That's, that's really cool. What made you decide to go down that path? Uh, I guess just my granola sensibilities. Uh, I just thought it would be cool. Like, um, and I'm, I really enjoy seeing the natural behaviors, you know, I mean, that's why I'm, um, very much into the naturalistic as naturalistic of keeping as, as I'm able to do. Um, and, uh, it seemed like it would be a doable thing and, um, seemed like it would be really interesting and, and, and it was all of those. Um, yeah. Oh, that's exciting. Yeah. So you, you planning to breed them again,

or are you holding off until you, uh, well, I'm not in a rush i mean there's uh there were a number of of successful clutches in the u.s this year so and i i'm not sure how big the the market is for um for people you know i don't know how many people really want you know scrub pythons and um and uh and i guess you know it's like a little preview of the conversation tonight i don't know how many people are um uh even if they do want them are they're really the it's the right fit for them so um i i really am kind of taking a go slow approach with that uh so i'm not going to decide that for another year or so and, and see how it goes. I mean, I would selfishly, I would do it again for sure in a heartbeat because I totally loved it.

It was super, super fun. But just thinking about the, where all those babies are going to wind up. Sure. Yeah. That's a, that's a tricky thing sometimes when you're a breeder, you know, being responsible and trying to make sure they go to good homes and that kind of thing. So yeah, that, that'll come into play in our, in our discussion here soon. How about the other projects you, uh, working on producing any of the pine snakes or? Nope. I don't, I just don't, I only have the one pine snake and the one retic. That's nice. So, um, yeah, I mean, if I, if i were a little bit younger or had a little bit more space uh or didn't like to travel as much or all of those kinds of things i would probably do more

of that right but um lots of competing interests you know life is very full yeah for sure and they're super fun they're super fun just as as. Yeah. Well, and again. They're just keeping, right? Yeah. Again, I think we've kind of been sold a bit of a false bill of goods where everybody thinks they have to be the next Brian Barczyk and have 50,000 snakes in a warehouse and in rack systems, you know, and, and I think in, in, you know, we, there's nothing wrong with having a pet, you know, having, having a snake or two from, you know, just a diverse collection or, or a few different things, or, you know, just a handful is, is that's not a bad, not a bad thing. And I think the enjoyment really goes up. it seems as i get rid of projects and have fewer

animals i enjoy the ones i have a lot more and it's a lot less like work and a lot more like enjoying you know animals in in my uh reptile room so yeah yeah but it's hard because there's a lot of cool reptiles oh yeah for sure like i completely understand the the desire to get more and more and more and um i mean i kind of have to fight against that for sure um i would love it like oh oh my god look at that that'd be so these guys, that doesn't sound fun to me at all. Right. Like you give up all the cool stuff and just make it more of a more of a of a job like you're saying yeah and i think um at least in my life i've kind of found that uh herping kind of fills that gap a little bit because you get to

experience these really cool animals in the wild and uh you know you're maybe a little less tempted to keep them in captivity if you can enjoy them in the wild and see them in action in their natural habitat and just see like you know how well they use a large space and be like i'd hate to put that thing in a box you know yeah yeah it's it's hard because on the other hand i really want to see those animals you know have that same view every day if I could, but, you know, so I guess there's, I'm, I'm, I'm, uh, good with both sides of that, that argument, I guess. And I guess what we do here is we see it from both sides, but yeah, I mean, we all need to find the balance for, for ourselves and what it is. We what's the experience we're looking for.

Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, somebody needs to produce them and somebody needs to keep them and that's, that's just fine either way. You know, there should be no, no shame. You know, I think people kind of tend to have that attitude of like, oh, you're not breeding it or you're just keeping it. And I think that's the wrong attitude to have, you know, like tell me what you've experienced with that species. I don't think you necessarily have to breed everything to have some really interesting takes on their care and how to keep them happy and healthy. So that should be our main goal anyway. And breeding should just be kind of a side effect of that aspect of our keeping. Exactly.

Yeah. That said, I've noticed I've got a few snakes that are looking uh rather plump and should be laying some eggs soon and i'm hoping i will be around to see them because i'm taking off soon for australia so i won't be here again a couple weeks yeah i need to have my daughter watch close i guess and maybe collect some eggs if the females aren't doing their jobs. But that's the way it goes sometimes. Wow. How many clutches? I'm shooting for, you know, just four or five, six, maybe. I don't know.

We'll see. I threw a few things together, but mainly Aspidites. I want to see some Womas and Blackheads. Oh, very cool. Get some eggs from them. And then some inland carpets, jungle carpets, and then a few of the Antaresia. Of course, they're always kind of there. So, yeah, there should be a few things available.

That's great. So, moved a few more animals out a couple weeks ago. So, that was nice to move some animals on to some new homes and they seem to be um excited about those projects so i i love to support that excitement and you know help them get some really nice animals and that was that's been been nice to see uh some interest and you know people buying still people are still buying animals so that's good well once we start fighting i can't wait to hear about uh i want to hear actually about like how And, you know, people are still buying animals, so that's good. Well, once we start fighting, I can't wait to hear about – I want to hear actually about, like, how you do that.

What's your process like when you're talking with your buyers and stuff? Yeah, yeah. So I guess, I mean, unless anybody else has anything to add or we can jump into things. Rob, you had something to say? No, I just want to make sure that it sounds okay and I'm not duplicating again. Yeah, no echoes. Sounds good. You got it figured out. Worked out. Got it sorted. Gotta love the technical difficulties. Tonight we're going to be talking

about this topic that Paul sent in, kind of talking about breeders' responsibilities versus buyers' responsibilities, I suppose. That might be the best way to frame it. Just kind of talk about what should you do as a breeder? What kind of things should you do and help your buyer along the way? So, you know, I think we all have kind of a different perspective on this. And, you know, I'm excited to see what kind of conversation comes out of this. So we'll have a nice little debate here.

Rob and I will flip the coin to see who gets to fight with you tonight. Go ahead and call it, Rob. Tails. Tails. It is Tails. It is Tails. Yeah. You won the coin toss.

Won the coin toss. I think it's been a handful that you had won in a row, right? Yeah. Well, I think you won some of the more recent ones. Did I? Yeah. I think you won with Zach and maybe a couple others. No, you won with Zach, for sure.

Oh, I did. But you gave it to me anyway, which I appreciated. Yeah. All right. Well. But accordingly, I will give this one to you, and then I'll just sort of chip in with you guys. Sounds good. Yeah. Moderated a. Sounds good. Yeah.

Moderated bit. Yep. Okay. And then, Paul, we'll go ahead and flip the coin, and you can call out heads. It is heads, so you can pick your side. Oh, man. I've been going back and forth on this so much. Which one do I want to do?

I'll do the buyer. Okay. want to do um uh i'll do the buyer okay buyer buyers uh more uh responsible than or i guess what the buyer what you kind of see is the buyer's responsibility i suppose yeah okay yeah sounds good and we'll kind of i guess weight it that way you know like you're you're fighting for the buyers should be more responsible than the breeder and and i'll fight the other side so sure okay sounds good and then as the coin toss winner you can either defer or go first whichever oh uh go i i will go second okay i'll lead us out then um so you know i think um in in the the whole business of breeding reptiles and selling reptiles, I think, you know, I've seen the difference, you know, the different approaches and wide variety of breeders from those who seem to not even care about the animals or, you know, that maybe the flippers that are just getting a bunch of half-dead wholesale animals and trying to get some sucker to buy them to, um, really helpful, responsible breeders who are placing their animals in the best hands and, uh, you know,

supporting their customers. So, you know, obviously, you know, we, we want to have more of the latter and less of the former. We don't really want these animals to be viewed as disposable pets. And that can be difficult sometimes with the amount of imports and the pet store type reptiles that everybody's kind of exposed to first. And I think everybody probably has a story of buying an animal from either a pet store or a breeder of ill repute, if you will. A lot of times the deals aren't much of a deal because you either get a sick animal or an animal that doesn't last long, despite your best efforts. And it can be really demoralizing, I think, in a lot of times. Now, it's tricky, too, because I think a lot of people that are buying from these sources, they're looking for just the deal, basically, to appease a kid, to shut their kid up and quit having them ask for an animal.

Just say, here's your animal. Shut up. And then the kid loses interest after a day. And the animal dies and the person's happy and the kid doesn't care anymore. So, you know, it's it's no harm, no foul, except for on the side of the animal, which is definitely a sad thing. an answer to that other than like just slowing down imports and, and really putting pressure on pet stores and things to not carry or not sell animals that are not in good health and that aren't expected to make it last long. And there's some species that just don't do well in captivity, right? So, you know, so I, I guess there, it would be nice to see everybody who's dealing with these animals have the animals first in their minds rather than a dollar sign or a cent sign. In some instances, you know, just like they're just willing to flip it for anything and they just want people to come in, buy dry goods or buy a cage or something.

And that makes the sale of the animal worthwhile. So, you know, putting the animals first, not having them be disposable pets, I think is a really basic and very important aspect of the breeder or the flipper, whoever has the animal, their responsibility is to put the animal first. So I'll leave that statement. Yeah. Well, I mean, I can't argue with that for sure, right? Yeah, nor should you. Yeah, that would be terrible.

Yeah, I mean, we should all definitely be putting the animal first for sure. I definitely chose the side of this. It's going to be a lot harder for me to argue. I think as a buyer, it's our responsibility to really do a ton of homework ahead of time. And nobody can do that for us. That's something that we have to do. And there are lots and lots of resources available for us to do, uh, for us to do continue, you know, uh, to learn about the animals that we're interested in ahead of time. And, um, as well as, uh, uh, after the fact, and that is

totally on us the entire time. Um, I mean, obviously, hopefully it's a partnership with our breeder for sure. But in thinking about some of the things that we can and should be doing as breeders, or I'm sorry, as buyers, right out of the gate, the big thing is, as you say, it's the animal first, right? That it's the every, if we're not making a decision that's in the best interest of the animal, then that's, that's on us. Um, um, and the most important thing is that we're not impulse buying, that we're not, that we're not just going to a show or going to a pet shop and going in and um and going in and just being like oh that looks super cool what's the minimum kite what's the minimum cage i can put it in and what's what's it eat okay cool i'll take it

right that that's our responsibility to learn all of those things before we even start looking for an animal that we're interested in to find out what that animal even is. Or even I would even back up a little bit more and say it's our responsibility as as especially I'm thinking about like new buyers where people this might be their first reptile. Right. Or their kid really wants a reptile. They even learn what a reptile is. Yeah. Like that maybe I'm familiar with dogs and cats, but reptiles are super different, right? And your average person doesn't know that,

doesn't fully appreciate like how different they really are. I mean, I certainly didn't when I, when I had my first animals, um, it blew my mind and it still does on a regular basis, part of what's fun about keeping them. Um, so that's my, that's my responsibility as a buyer to educate myself about all of those things before I'm even talking to you as a breeder or somebody who's selling me something. Yeah. And I think too, with anything, there's so much information out there and it's not all equally weighted either, you know, and I think, you know, you get, you get some people that want to make a bearded dragon, a dog, you know, and you see these butterball bearded dragons, they're fat,

they don't have the, the proper care. And so they're unhealthy, obese, you know, they can hardly move and, and they're just load them because they saw a YouTube video and, and, and the person had one that looked like that. And so, you know, I think that's, that's a little tricky too, because, um, you know, we, we, we are not great. It seems as Americans in determining, you know, what's real from what's fake or what's, what's good information from bad information. I mean, I don't know, you see that all, all over the place and it can be very frustrating. And, um, but, but at the same time, you know, I think sometimes good breeders may not, may keep their mouth shuts or they, they don't, they're not putting out that information. And so people have a hard time discerning because they

see 50 videos of people keeping their bearded dragon in a see 50 videos of, you know, people keeping their bearded dragon in a hammock with a, you know, sitting on their lap while watching the football game where, you know, maybe one or two are like saying, yeah, that's probably not the best scenario or best way to keep your bearded dragon. Um, reptiles are not dogs and cats. They don't necessarily want to sit on our lap or right in a stroller or whatever, you know? So it's kind of a, a tricky thing to, to teach people without, you know, the offending a group or whatever, you know, because a lot of times people get this idea and say, no, this is how it is. I've seen it all over the place and that means it's real. And that means it's the best thing. So that's a a that's a hard thing to yeah

yeah i mean when i've talked to to um to people i know who are thinking about getting a reptile and they're and they they're coming to me oh yeah you're the snake guy you know tell me what should i get um yeah no what kind of ball python should i get basically right and um and i i usually say to them like okay it's really good that you're doing research and you're trying to educate yourself about this stuff i found that i basically had to throw out the entire first round of of like of um especially youtube type stuff that i found um that the stuff that's really aimed towards, um, sort of edutainment, uh, and that, that the stuff that people typically find at the very beginning of their search on this stuff, they just need to throw it out because it's, it's, um, it's clickbait.

It gets you involved. It gets you excited, but it's not actually good information. Right. And I think, too, I mean, we were big pushers of natural history on this show. And so, you know, that's kind a lot of ways you can keep things successfully, but if you're matching their natural history, you know, part of the problem is that we don't know some natural history for some of the species that are commonly kept, you know. I think even some of the more commonly kept things like a ball python, we've kind of almost semi-domesticated them. There's basically a formula that people can apply and do pretty well with them and breed them and make pretty colors and things. to people who kind of figured out, you know, or, or maybe did understand their natural history to kind of, um, figure those things out and get us some captive bred specimens or, um, which, which makes it a lot easier. And obviously, you know, that's, that's probably one of the biggest,

uh, pieces of, of advice that I would give for any prospective buyer, um, is to buy captive bred by something that's produced in the United States. Yeah. So, you know, I think that's that's what I'm doing. Right. Is the part of the breeder. Yeah. Maybe explaining to people because a lot of times, you know, captive bred animals are going to be more expensive. And so you're going to pay a little more upfront, but also that might save you a lot of money down the road and vet bills or just an animal that dies in a few weeks. You know, you might've saved a hundred bucks, but you lost a hundred bucks, you know, rather quickly than if you would have spent 200 bucks, you'd still have an animal and, you know, that kind of thing.

So, you know, that's hard to convince people of. And I, and I do think to some extent, um, the lessons we learned through the trials and the difficulties in keeping some of these animals and learning the hard way sometimes is a more, um, better teacher than, you know, if you just had everything kind of spoon fed to you and things, but I don't know. I mean, I, I've, I know there's a lot of people, you know, that I, we've talked to some, some on this show where they've worked for big breeders and they've seen how

they do it and kind of, you know, they can learn that way on other people's animals to some extent while they work for them and then kind of branch off or, or take things in their own hands when they're ready to do so and seem to do great and not have maybe some of those early growing pains. But I don't know anybody who starts out perfect, you know. So there are definitely going to be some things that breeders and sellers of reptiles can't prevent. You know, people are going to impulse buy.

I've impulse bought and, you know, I think most of us probably have to some extent. But, you know, hopefully we learn that lesson quickly. And, you know, no matter how many times you advise somebody, don't do this or don't do that, they're going to do it anyway. And, you know, so, you know, I don't know, smoking causes cancer, but you still see people smoking, you know? Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a really hard one, right? Like as a, as a breeder, you, you would think that, um, hopefully that the, the breeder would be willing to walk away from a sale. And, um, uh, if, if the buyer doesn't actually, hasn't done the kind of stuff that we're talking about here, you know, what's incumbent upon the buyer, um, if they get a sense that the, the, that we're talking about here, you know, what's incumbent upon the buyer. If they get a sense that the buyer's like, yeah, I just want that because it's bad. Like, you know, right. Or they're not equipped to do, do it the way that would make, you know,

that would have success. You know, they're probably saving the buyer from, from a painful and expensive experience. Or are they denying them from a learning experience? Well, I'm all for people learning, but not at the expense of the animals. Right. Right. So, I mean, that's it. And that's the thing, like you as a as a breeder or me as a as a buyer we're doing this because we love these animals and

and we think they're amazing and we want to we want that experience right um so um yeah sorry i'm not where i'm not sure where i was going with that well no i guess i maybe would counter that a little bit with the uh you know if you kind of take a more natural approach you know most of the most of the animals that hatch out in the wild become food for other things or die or don't make it you know or starve to death or whatever you know nature is pretty brutal and it's uh pretty pretty uh difficult uh learning curve for a young snake that hatches out in the middle of the desert or whatever. So especially if they time it, you know, they just happen to be born in the drought year

or something like that, you know, that can be a rough, rough place. So, you know, I guess you could maybe look at it and say, look, you know, in the wild, not all animals make it to maturity and become reproductively successful. And same thing with captivity, you know, they, there's a weeding out process and some go to bad homes and they just have that poor luck and, you know, it all just part of nature, even, even in captivity. But, you know, that's definitely the, the more harsh side of looking at things. I think it's important to look at, to look at that argument and see if it holds water.

Right. Like I've, I've certainly thought about that a lot. Like, well, what do I mean when I say naturalistic keeping? I mean, like I'm,

I'm assist feeding one of my babies. That's really given me a hard time. Right. that's not naturalistic yeah right like okay no you're you're crow food right exactly you don't want to you don't want to eat what is put in front of you you're probably not going to survive in the wild either you know yeah yeah right exactly yeah you're a terrible snake. But, but yeah, I mean, that's, I, so I guess I, I don't know. I guess you can make an argument that I'm being hypocritical to say I'm not really down with, with people buying, since I'm talking about the buyer side, not the breeder. I'm not really down with people buying animals that they're not, that they're not equipped to take and just say, okay, well, that's, that's natural selection or that's a, you know,

a market economy or whatever sort of laissez-faire argument you want to use. Sure. Devil's advocate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause like, you know, I don't want to see some, some kid go home with a sulcata tortoise from a show that then, which I saw it. My show was just at the other day, you know, people impulse find sulcata tortoises like that's terrible.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, Oh my gosh. Yeah. I've've i've received a few of those and you know that just like are past the point of of really saving you know like i really struggled and they just crashed on me and died and it was like oh man these you know and then you see some like i don't know i i had this uh i think it was a great ant or something, and they found out that I liked reptiles. And they're like, oh, you should see my turtle downstairs. And I go down in the basement and there's this box turtle with a, you know, giant beak, overgrown, fingernails, you know, four inches long, you know, curled up. And she's terrible. But, I mean, the thing's still kicking in the basement.

And she goes down and feed it worms once in a while. And she loves it and thinks it's thriving and happy. And it's lived for 40 years. You know, it's like, well, kind of hard to argue. It's, it's a loved animal, but just not, you know, given the proper environment to, to thrive and to do well. So I don't know. But by the same token, like I've seen a wild bearded dragon with a huge like kink in its back. And it was it was an adult living its best life in the wild.

You know, it had survived that that far hadn't been eaten by a goanna or an eagle or anything like that. So I'm like, hey, you know, sometimes those kind of things can surprise you, I guess. And then I bought a box turtle from a pet shop and it ended up having some maggots in its arm. And my dad was helping pulling those out. It was like a wild caught thing that had like bot fly larva or something in it. It was pretty nasty. And yeah, it died pretty quick. And even though I felt like, you know, Oh, I know what I'm doing. I can keep a box turtle.

If my great aunt can keep it in her basement for 40 years, I can, I can get in. Yeah. It didn't last very long. And, you know, kind of one of those hard lessons, like make sure you check the animal and make sure that it, and it's hard with reptiles because they don't really show that disease state very well. So they hide it pretty well. So, you know, that's a tricky thing. I guess that's where buying captive bred comes into play.

And you're going to have a better chance of success with a captive bred animal. For sure. And you wouldn't make the argument like you run into folks where they yeah they would say that oh yeah they'd be terrible with the with the dog but they're willing to accept the same um that same sort of mediocre treatment with a reptile um yeah or or a fish or and i mean it seems like you know in the zoos they're even moving towards um insect welfare like the feeder insects they have welfare checks to make sure that the uh roaches are being contained properly until they're fed off you know that kind of thing so i mean i guess you know why limit it to just reptiles and mammals and we can go all the way down the chain and make sure that our, our bugs and the

feeders that we use are being humanely kept and, you know, our rodents and things like that, you know, euthanized if they're, if they're humanely euthanized, if they're sick or have tumors or whatever, you know, that, that kind of thing. Um, I think if you care about animals, you probably should care about all animals, you know, a hundred percent, you know, like that's how I feel anyway, you know, people who can squash a spider and then say how much they love reptiles. I'm like, well, you know, like you don't care about one form of life, you know, how much do you care about the other? But I don't know. That's probably, um, I mean, I care about how the plants that I eat are, I'm not a vegetarian, but like if I'm eating something, I care about how that was raised.

Right. Like, um, so yeah, I don't know. I guess it comes down to just care about things. Yeah. Right. That's the takeaway, right? I mean, with, you know, it's such a fine line to, you know, because we, you know, there's, and I guess everybody has a different bar, a different level. Like I said, I don't think about necessarily the welfare of my roaches like I do the welfare of my animals, but a zoo, you know, I know my, my friend Steve's working at a zoo and they have to pay particular attention to that, or they could get in trouble with the regulating animal here what are you doing to you know help that animal or you know what kind of care are you

giving it that kind of thing you know could we all answer the clear conscience and say yeah i'm doing all i can to to help this animal yeah and and if you're i think that's great because if you're bringing that mindset to the roaches that's's keeping you in that headspace and that approach of respect and stewardship. Right. Just, you know, from all day long, right? You don't get to step back from it because that's just the world you live in. Yeah. Yeah.

All life counts, right? Yeah. Yeah. All life counts. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, well, and you know, I guess,

um, from that, uh, that breeders perspective, you know, if you, if you're doing your best to, to kind of make sure, you know,

figure out what, what the buyer understands and what kind of, you know, keeper they are, if they've had experience with, with other things that might be similar or, you know, if they... Most of the people who buy from me have usually kept other species before. I rarely get a first-time buyer. One, because, you know, Australian captive bred animals tend to be a little more expensive than your run of the mill pet shop animals. Most people you talk to, you ask them what their first pet was. It's, you know, usually

in like four or five groups, you got your boa constrictor people, your ball Python people, you know, like crested gecko, bearded dragon, you know, their corn snake. There's relatively few that most people start out with. And, you know, admittedly a lot of my first ones, you know, they're corn snake. Uh, there's relatively few that most people start out with. And, you know, admittedly, a lot of my first ones, uh, you know, California King snake or, uh, or a gopher snake that I found wild, you know, around my, they're, they're pretty common around here. So, you know, but I, I think, um, people are either, you're going to keep what's, you know, they can catch in their backyard or what somebody is giving away in their neighborhood. I was lucky.

One of my first pets was a desert tortoise. It's illegal to keep those in Utah, but somebody had one grandfathered in. It had been collected before the law went into effect. My friend found it in a ditch. He's like, I caught a, I caught a snapping turtle, come see it, you know? And so I went over there, I'm like, that's a desert tortoise. Let's go for a Sega CZ. And you know, can I take it home? He's like, uh, yeah, I think you know more about it. So he let me take it. And I, that was one of my first pets and I kept that for

quite a long time. It was a really, one of my favorite animals was that desert tortoise but you know i'd keep it in an outdoor pen in the summertime and once in a while he'd escape and i'd have to put up posters and go track him down and things and then in the winter i'd put him in a box in my closet and he'd usually like dig out of the box and start digging into my wall and like there's these two like little paddle marks in the, in where, in the corner of my closet where he tried to dig through the drywall. So, you know, yeah, I learned a lot of, a lot of good lessons from that, that tortoise. But yeah, that was, I remember that really fondly.

Now, you know, did I keep him perfectly? Not by a long stretch. And, you know, I, I tried my best, you know did i keep him perfectly not by a long stretch and you know i i tried my best you know i took him outside got him sun got him you know uh he could go out and graze we had a pasture in the backyard so i take him out and he grazed and i built him like an outdoor pan and things but yeah i i did my best and you know. And then I got to know, we called her the turtle lady and she was up on a town. I don't know how we even found out about her, but my dad drove me up there and we went and visited her. And she had like a radiated tortoise, you know, along the, the foothills of, uh, you know, the, her backyard was kind of the start of the mountain range. And so she had a big giant, um, pen back there where she had all these different tortoise species. And she's like, go see how many you can find. You know, I go, you know, looking around. Oh, it was like, I was a kid in a candy store.

I was in heaven looking for those tortoises. It was fantastic. And she taught me a was in heaven looking for those tortoises. It was fantastic. And she taught me a lot, you know, about tortoises and she had some desert tortoises. And so I got to bring mine up there and he got to battle a male or two and, and mate with a female or two. I left him up there for a week or two with her. And she said, Oh yeah, he's, he's the toughest one on the block. Cause he was a big male and old male. So yeah. Wow. Oh, that's super cool. I love that story. Yeah. It was a lot of fun. So, you know, I, I, I learned, learned some lessons the hard way,

you know, make sure your tortoise can't climb out of its outdoor pen or else you're going to be tracking it down somehow. And I guess that's how I got it because, uh, we, my dad knew who the owners were. And so he went over there and he said, you know, my son's really, you know, he found your, your tortoise and he's really interested. And I said, oh yeah, go, he can have it. That's fine. You know, they had it chained up on a, they drilled a hole in the shell and had it chained up in the backyard. Oh my God. No. Yeah. And so my, one of our first things we did was get some chained up in the backyard oh my god no yeah and so my one of our first things we did was get some epoxy and fill in the hole and you know so he was a hole again i guess but yeah what and you know it survived for many many years and in that care so it's amazing how

how tough these animals are but yeah sometimes it's hard to drill a hole in one of my pets. Right. Yeah. So, so, but that was like the, the, the going advice back in the day, I think back in the sixties and seventies, like, yeah, you just drill a hole in it and put it on a chain. I mean, it's just, it's shell. They don't, they don don't feel that right like that's their bone i can't imagine that's very comfortable for them oh that's terrible i think one of mike pingleton's in his uh the diary that he keeps right or that he maintains on the internet um i believe it was him they had talked about in southeast asia somewhere finding a turtle on a road they

clearly had a shell and maybe even a ring through it. You know, I think the context was maybe that it was destined for the stew pot is what they thought, you know, but it had managed to escape and they, you know, found it, took it off the road and re-released it. Wow. Wow. That's crazy. Yeah. Even, I guess that's, yeah, probably a common practice in different places around the world. I mean, obviously, people have different ideas of reptiles. And in some places, tortoises are a great food source. That was Darwin stopping by the Galapagos to stock up on tortoises for the long sea journeys.

They could last a long time in a boat and they could eat them over time and have fresh meat kind of thing. So, you know, reptiles, uh, because they're so, um, tough and just, you know, tortoise can be at sea for how long, you know, a month or two and, and land on a new Island and they're just fine, you know, a few barnacles on their shell, but, um, but at the same time, I think that, you know, kind of gives us the false impression that they're, you know, what low maintenance pets that you don't really need to do anything. Exactly. You know, sometimes I, I, I guess the coin goes both ways because sometimes we overdo it with our pets, like the chubby bearded dragons.

You know, they're they're definitely on the other side of that where they're pampered too much and in the inappropriate way. I always think back to that brown snake that Matt Souther or Somerville had that fed it,, I think three mice in a year and it died and it had these huge fat bodies. Like it was doing just fine on, you know, just a couple of mice. So, but then again, you know, I wouldn't say, um, for most stuff feed it three times a year and it's great, but you know, that's, I guess you have to know you're the natural history of the species you're working with. If you're not giving an appropriate amount of heat or light or space, then yeah, they might have issues with obesity and poor health as a result. So you have to understand. Going back to your earlier point about what those gateway reptiles are um i think there's i think that's hard for those breeders who are producing those super cheap animals right um uh really really

hard and then especially if it's something like it's a i mean i kind of feel like nobody should breed any ball pythons at all for you you know, just a five-year moratorium. There's enough of them right now. Yeah, exactly. But, so say I'm looking for a corn snake and it's going to cost me whatever. And what's a corn snake cost at Petco? Like 75 bucks or something like that um i can spend more money on a on a um on a single light fixture than on this than on the snake right right

yeah and let alone to do a a proper enclosure for that corn snake as an adult it's going to cost way way way more than the snake is the cheapest thing in there. Maybe the water ball. So I think that's another thing, another responsibility of buyers is to think about this stuff holistically, not just think about, oh, it's a cheap animal because it costs, you know, I can buy the thing for 75 bucks.

Like, no, that's not the whole story by a long shot. And to say nothing of, you know, you need to have money put aside for a vet bill or even preferably you take it to the vet when you first get it so that you have an established relationship with that vet. But if you do have an emergency, you can actually get in the door and not wait six weeks. That's what I would say. That's another thing that is a responsibility of the buyer to think about. If finances are a constraint, really think about the entire picture and not just the cost of the animal itself. And if money is tight with it, consider getting a rescue. You can get tons of snakes for free

right or almost nothing yeah and some really really nice animals right and put that money into the enclosure or or your some aspect of your husbandry right yeah um uh i mean when i had a uh when i had a when i my my first dog, I spent a lot of money on a purebred dog and I couldn't believe it. I was like, oh, my God, it's so much money. And then within six months, I realized, like, oh, that was just that was nothing. Because now I had to fence my yard. I had to buy a bigger car. I did the thing with the groomer.

The cost of the dog is insignificant. And I think that's one of the things that's probably, you're right, is very neglected in our thought process of buying or even advising as the breeder of the animal saying, okay, you're going to need a cage this size. It's going to cost your home this much. And food, you're going to need a cage this size. It's going to cost your own this much and food, you're going to need to feed it this often. So, you know, I, I don't know that I do that very well. You know, I, I guess I figure, well, this person understands what they're getting into, but maybe that's part of the education we provide, you know, and say, you know, this is, this is not just a $300 snake. I, there's always that joke of her, her, but to culturalists that

will pay, you know, $5,000 for a snake and try to stick it in a $10 aquarium or whatever, whereas people spend 5,000 on the tank and put a, you know, $50 or $10 fish in there, you know? So, um, we're, we're a little bit backwards in our thinking in the reptile world that, you know, because they are tough animals, they can you can meet their basic needs, you know, in probably a much smaller enclosure than you should. And they will be OK. But, you know, are they living their best lives? Are they are they are they going to be healthy in the long run? Are we doing it the right way? That's questions that sometimes we gloss over, I think, when we're looking to get a new animal.

Like, oh, I can tide that over for now, or I can keep that for now. Right, right. And breeders, too. You might be pumping out these animals and, Oh man, then they're growing and I haven't sold them all. And now they need bigger enclosures. What do I do? You know, that's sometimes we don't think about that either, or even have any closures at all. Like, Oh, I filled up all my racks. What do I do now? You know? Hey, Hey buddy, can I borrow a rack from you for a few months yeah i mean i have a friend who recently bought a snake and opened it up and the breeder had stuck in a free bonus snake

yeah like i didn't even tell her like oh this is coming um just like okay one less mouth to feed and you know one uh one one tub that i don't have to double up anymore or something. I don't know. Yeah. But so, I mean, I can, I can imagine, like you were saying, you had, when your buyers are typically, the people are coming to you, they're, they're experienced and educated and, you know, they're, you're not getting impulse buys i don't know if you ever vended shows or not but yeah you used to but yeah i don't do it too often anymore i probably should but yeah it's they always seem to time the reptile shows when i'm on a herb trip so yeah yes so i mean if you if you had somebody coming up to you, who's not that, who's giving you vibes of, um, uh, I don't actually know what I'm looking at, you know? Um, and, oh, it's cute. Why does it have a at these reptile shows is, is just educating people.

Because like you said, most people haven't heard of any of the animals at my table. And I'm just like, oh, have you heard of the pygmy python? It's the smallest python in the world. And here's all its relatives. And here's the genus, Antaresia. And I kind of give them a crash course in just whatever species. I'm not looking to sell them anything. I'm just looking to teach them that there are other pythons besides a ball python or a boa constrictor.

So I just see my role at local shows especially as just educating the public. I don't really need to sell anything at these shows. I just kind of go to talk to people and educate and see see fellow breeders and go chat with my old friends, you know, that kind of thing. And once in a while, you know, somebody will say, oh, yeah, I've been looking for a children's python or a spotted python or, you know, and and I have one. And so they they've already done their research and kind of know about them. Or they heard me blab on about them at the last show. And so now they looked into them and oh, those are cool. You know, I might want to try one of those. So, yeah. And and if and if they are, you know, I kind of ask them, well, you know, what are you planning on keeping it in or what kind of enclosure and and granted a lot of times they're getting enclosures that are probably way too big for the snake at the time because you know there's like a yearling children's python it's you know weighs 20 30 40 grams and it's uh they're trying to put it in a six foot by four foot cage or something you're like uh you might want to you know monitor in a smaller

enclosure for the time being and then once it's an adult set it loose in this giant cage that'd be great yep you know get to know the snake understand what its needs are and things you could even keep the smaller enclosure in the larger enclosure or whatever as long as exactly the temps you need or whatnot so yeah i love it that people are talking about doing that a lot more um yeah you know set it up set it up just like the breeder had it when you bring it home and then just put that that analog of the tub in the in the enclosure and let it decide how it wants to um if and when it wants to transition. Right. Right. Yeah. And I, you know, I think, um, those of us that kind of got sold that the false sense of what we do as breeders, you know,

keeping 50 snakes in Iraq and, and just pumping them out kind of thing. Um, you know, there might be a place for that in the mass production of, you know, colubrids for the pet trade or whatever. I'm not saying that that has no place in herpetoculture, but for the average keeper, it's probably not the thing to strive for. You know, let's try to keep these things in as large of an enclosure as you can when they're adults. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Another thing is, you know, misunderstanding, you know, what, uh, average size versus, um, totally, you know, the, the maximum size. And I think a lot of people think, well, you know, I'm buying a coastal carpet, it's going to get 10 or 12 feet long. Well, no, those are the rare exceptions.

It's like, you know, the, the, uh, seven foot five guy, you know, is not represent the average human size. Um, so we, we need to keep that in mind too. Like an average coastal carpet is going to be six feet and not 12 feet, but it might reach 12 feet. We shouldn't strive to get it to reach 12 feet necessarily. Cause that's probably not great for the animal in most cases. But, you know, those kind of misunderstandings are common as well on people's perception of things and what's in books and things like that. Even the first edition of the carpet book, you know, we kind of talk about size of coastal carpets, but then I realized in writing the second edition, like

we didn't even really talk about what an average size coastal is and, you know, looking, and there was a great paper that measured all these wild carpet pythons in Brisbane area. And it was like, yeah, just under six foot, five foot was the average size of an adult coastal carpet that they were removing from, you know, yards or whatever. So one out of every 200 was 10 foot you know so yeah yeah scrubs are the same way right yeah yeah they're typically typically 10-ish feet you know yeah you can i mean there've been ones recorded, whatever, 16, 18 feet, you know, but super, super rare. And yes, specifically the Barnex, right?

Like the other scrubs rather than, I mean, there's, you know, some scrubs that only get a five or six feet, right? You know, so that's. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it'd be fun to have it. Maybe you can get Nick and Ryan on to do a fight about scrub taxonomy. I don't know that. Oh, my gosh, that's a whole nother thing. I think they're on the same side, though. Yeah, they totally are. Taxonomists on here or something.

Yeah, yeah. That'd be great. Yeah. So another one of the points that I had on here about arguing in terms of what I try to keep in mind as a buyer. Readers, and this is total generalization, right? Readers, there's lots of breeders who know tons and tons and tons about the animals that they're breeding, right? Know all about their natural history. Whatever it is about them, they can talk about that species up and down. There's lots of other breeders who all they know is how to breed that snake. And they don't really know how to keep it.

They don't know anything about its natural history. They might not know, probably don't know about the lineage of the animal that it is they're breeding. Whether or not it's like my northern Mexican pine snake. My guess is it's probably not a pure geni um i mean they're they're frequently crossed with another uh subspecies uh the depia depia um that's probably what i have who knows um when i got it i didn't i didn't know to ask those kinds of questions um um and i'm not breeding him he's a pet i like him i'm you know in this case no harm no foul right um but in terms of thinking about like if if i'm somebody who's a

keeper and i really want that kind of maximum keeper experience um it for sure i'm going to ask my breeder about how to achieve that and but they may they may not know um and again i'm not being necessarily critical of the guy who bred my pine snake you know he had basically he'd gotten a couple of them at a previous show, stuck them in a rack, bred them, um, picked out the yellow one, the yellowest ones, put them together, bred them. And then I got the babies from that. That's right. Like he doesn't know anything about their, where they're found in the wild, what they're, you know, what they do in the wild, like knows absolutely zero about it and wasn't curious about it um and so i mean i can't really imagine that yeah right that's so counter to what what how i go

about it that it just seems like what you know i was listening to a podcast they were talking about this really expensive pair of lizards they bought and they said well where are these from and they're like oh uh somewhere in australia i i can't remember i'm like what you spent that much money on a pair of lizards and you don't even know where they're found in the wild like come on like that should be step one you know learning all you can about what where they're from what they look like what they do in the wild yeah yeah so for as a, that's really hard, right? Because if you can't rely on the first round of stuff that you find when you start looking on SnakeTube, and you can't rely on Facebook groups necessarily, sometimes you get some good advice. Maybe not. You may or may not be able to rely on your breeder even for good information with that.

Then where do you go like what um where do you go for for good information and um so for me that's where it just keeps coming back to the argument of like go slow in making decisions about what you're going to buy and then growing your collection because it it's just, it's a super, it's a very demanding, it's a very demanding path of continuing education for you as a, as a keeper. Right. And if you're going to do your animals justice, and if you're going to really maximize your own fun, take your time. Right. And, and really find people to connect with, um, who, who really you

can trust for, um, uh, for good solid information. Um, and then if they're a breeder buy from them. Yeah. Right. Right. Um, support them. Yeah. I guess, um, along the lines of sometimes getting, you know, not the best advice from the breeder. And I think sometimes that's unintentional. Like they say, this is what I do and it works for them. But yeah, right. A trans transplant, that way of keeping to your area. And it doesn't work at all. You know, like they all set it up in a screen cage and they're in Florida where it's humid

all the time. And you're in Utah where it's not humid at all. And then, you know, you have a dead chameleon or whatever because you didn't cage it right for Utah. So sometimes you have to, you know, adapt or think about things in that regard, how they're going to fit in your area too. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And even on that token, Justin, right, as you're saying, the screen cages thing,

their lived experience might actually, excuse me, cause them to give you bad advice saying you can't utilize a hybrid cage or a glass. Right. Yeah. Yeah, That's a, that's a good point. And I think, um, there's, you know, some, some great podcasts out there too. I've, I've loved that chameleon Academy, even though I don't keep chameleons, um, there's been some really amazing shows that they've put out and really great advice. And they're working on kind of dispelling some of those myths. Like you can only keep a chameleon in a screen cage or things like that along the lines of what Rob was talking about.

And so I think, you know, and, and, you know, no offense to, to people who are, are giving that advice because if that's what they were taught and that's how they're keeping them and it seems to be working, you know, they're, they're just giving you the best they know how. And so, you know, like you said, it's, it's on you, it's on the, the keeper to, to, uh, continue that education to say, okay, my chameleon is not doing great. He's usually dried out, you know, and I'm having to, you know, continuously dump water on him. That's probably not the best thing for him either. Um, and then, you know, on that chameleon Academy podcast, uh, Rob alerted to me, uh, one of the episodes from Peter Nackis, where he was talking about, um, in, I love talking about this one. Rob knows all too well.

He's probably heard this so many times. He probably regrets telling me about the episode, but that, uh, Peter would, uh, he said he, he had observed every behavior in the wild, but he had never seen a chameleon actively drinking water. And so he's like, I wonder how they're getting their moisture. And he weighed one before it went to sleep. And then he waited after it went to sleep, and then he weighed it after it went to sleep, and it had gained weight. It's like, well, that was probably moisture in the air, and they would think would be inhospitable for a chameleon like the Namaqua chameleons in the, in the deserts of Namibia.

And, but, but yet, you know, these fog banks roll in and all the animals get water from those fog banks. And that's what, how chameleons drink. So a chameleon can live there. You know, it's kind of crazy that they've adapted to the sand, but they're still drinking the same way. I remember when you guys were talking about that on Fight Club a year or two ago, a couple years probably. And it was like lights going off in my brain. You know, that is so freaking cool.

Yeah. And so I went and I went and listened to those episodes of, of chameleon academy. And at the time, um, yes, probably a couple of years ago, at least. Cause I, um, uh, my retic was relatively new to me and he was the first species that I had that had, um, that came from a more humid environment. And I live in Seattle, so it's not terrible, but it's still not, you know, it's not Thailand. Um, and, um, uh, and I was really having trouble with his sheds and, and so, and, you know, people are like, oh, don't miss and they're going to get an MRI. And I'm like, well, okay. But if I'm having

these bad sheds and, and I know for sure that humidity is not where, um, in, in the enclosure is not where it is in the natural environment that they've evolved to live in, I'm going to have to figure this out, right? So I wound up installing a misting system, and I have my scrubs on that now too, and very quickly didn't have any more shedding issues. And, but I'm like a real evangelist for this now, not just for misting. I feel like you really need to pair it with adequate ventilation, but, and, the thing that we can see is the, the, um, the shedding issues, we can't see what's going on in their kidneys or, um, whatever. I mean, I'm not a biologist, so I don't, I don't really know what the, uh, what the issues would be, but it seems to me like,

okay, if they, if they've evolved for, um, this, for this very specific environment we should really be trying to replicate that as much as we possibly can um and um and like i said as soon as i started doing that like zero problems so well and i think too like the first time I stepped in a rainforest was a paradigm shift. Exactly. Because getting into the environment can teach you a lot, you know, just kind of what these animals are experiencing. At least, you know, I mean, it might be a snapshot of a certain time of year. And so you need to not necessarily carry that throughout the whole year, but like, you know, we've found animals in situations where I was, you know, it was right after I had said, oh, we probably not going to find X species because of the conditions. And then we find that species crawling around being very happy in those conditions

where I thought, oh, that's, this is inhumane for that animal, but, you know, never let your jungle carpet get below 70 degrees. And then I find one on a rainy, you know, evening below 70 degrees, crawling around looking for food or whatnot. And, you know, seeing that, yeah, in the rainforest, it doesn't really go above 75 degrees. You know, it's pretty much year round. You've got from 65 to 80 and it doesn't vary much at all close to the equator. You get out of the forest and it's blazing hot, you know, in the sun and, you know, and you're the green tree pythons are living in under the canopy and mostly at 70 degrees. But every once in a while, you'll see like that photo that Matt Somerville took of a green tree python basking, you know,

in full sun in a tree, you know, like what's it doing that for? We don't know, but sometimes they do that. And so, you know, how do you set up an enclosure to replicate that, you know, that natural ability of the snake to kind of choose what it needs and do snakes always make the best choices given those options? I don't know. It options i don't know it's it's a real it's a real uh trick sometimes to um you know is is it uh is is the misting just a band-aid because it's too hot you know and when it can cool down in the misting and then it can shed better or is you know misting important or is it just you know the temperature is more, you know, misting important or is it just, you know, the temperature is more important?

You know, those kind of things are tricky to work out and we have to kind of, you know, and I've seen a lot of that where ball pythons are kept in a screen top cage with a heat lamp on top and they're having shedding issues. Oh, you know, add more water, you know, mist them or whatever, and they'll be fine. And sometimes it helps and, you know, but are you taking away the cause of the shed issues or are you just putting a bandaid on it and helping it, you know, for the time being, you know, that, that's kind of the other type of mental gymnastics sometimes we have to do, you know, to, to try to figure out. And, and I think too, we can stand on the shoulders of giants, you know, and like you said, you know, you can to try to figure out. And, and I think too, we can stand on the shoulders of giants, you know, and like you said, you know, you can watch YouTube videos and you can talk to breeders

and things, but, but a lot of times, you know, that they may be passing along bad advice. You can read books and sometimes they have outdated information that just isn't the way you do it anymore. And we've had some, you know, um, aha moments over the last 20 years where we've learned something and new and applied that to our keeping. And, um, but yeah, it's, I like your advice of going slow and taking your time and learning as much as you can, but also the learning isn't done when, once you get the animals, you don't say, okay, I'm at the point where I can keep this animal. Now I'm going to stop learning. No, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's another one of my bullet points, uh, embrace uncertainty. Like, um, and you know, uh, I, I just always really try to, to, um, well, I don't have to try because they're so humbling, right?

Because there's such enigmas in some ways, if you really pay close attention to them, that, you know, like, why are you doing this? You did a really specific behavior. What are you trying to achieve? achieve. Um, uh, so, you know, go just maintaining that student of the serpent attitude, beginner mind. Yeah. Um, throughout the entire thing. And as long as you go into it with that mindset of, of, um, that's what I'm, that's the journey that I'm signing up for. Then it's fun, right? Like if you go into it with the mindset of, Oh, okay. I'm the kind of guy I'm the kind of person who I have to have this all

figured out and I have to know exactly what's going to happen. And, you know, Oh, it didn't, I, I gave it the 78 degree hotspot and it didn't go in it. Maybe I should put it at 77 or whatever. I mean, you hear that with people with, with incubator horror stories all the time right like yeah oh i had it at 86.5 i think next time i'm going to do 86 right yeah you're like really that's your variation is 0.5 degree yeah it sounds it sounds a little yeah and that was kind of one

of the one of the impetus for this podcast was because I'd hear things I'd be like, challenge them on that. Like that is not a variation. Like that is still pretty dang stable. If you're keeping it within a half a degree, that's not variable. Yeah. Variable is leaving it on the floor of your reptile room and having it swing 20 degrees from day to night,

you know, like that's variable. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, so if you go into it with the mindset of, this is going to be something where I'm going to come out of it knowing more than I know going into it, but I'm still going to have tons of questions. Yeah.

Right. Then it's fun. Right. Like embrace that. Right. There should be, I guess, a bar for entry but that's not the final bar you know once you yes jump into jump over that bar there's a lot more bars to come and we need to prepare ourselves and and and know that you know the the more you learn the let the

more you learn that you don't know a lot i guess that clear? Clear as mud? Yeah. But, you know, the more you learn about a subject, the more you learn we don't know a lot about the subject. And if you kind of turn off that curiosity and turn off that learning aspect, you know, you might do okay still. You might be all right, but, you know, you're probably not enjoying it as much as you can if you have greater knowledge and continue on in that aspect. And I think that's what keeps the fire alive, at least for me, when I'm keeping animals is that, um, I continue to learn and continue to find out cool things about them and that kind of thing. And I don't know, it just makes them more, uh, cooler and,

you know, go see them in the wild. And that even excites me more about, you know, being able to keep these amazing animals and come home and say, Oh, I just saw your cousin in the wild. You know, this is exciting that I can, you know, be able to, to interact with you and in this setting, but, and I want to do better for you because I saw your relative in the wild and, you know, I want to increase your cage size or that kind of thing. So, yeah. And I guess, so that would be one of the things that I would ask of, of breeders, you know, is, um, and I found a lot of variation in this, in my own experience, that I would ask breeders to really be collaborative with their buyers. Be curious about not just sort of gatekeeping, okay, do you have the right thing?

But again, what is the experience you're looking for is this a is this a family pet or do you want to breed it is it um uh is this something you know this hopefully this is something that you're um going to be having for its entire life right yeah do you know they live for 30 years yeah right you just wanted to walk around your neighborhood with your shirt off to look cool yep yeah i mean, like I've known a number of breeders. And, I mean, I was only going to people who, who I thought would be, would be, you know, cool and who would be open to talking about it. And every single one of them was like, oh, yeah, tell me what you're doing. You know, cool and who would be open to talking about it. And every single one of them was like, oh yeah, tell me what you're doing. You know, okay. I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's

going to work, but that's really interesting. Here's what I might tweak about that. And that kind of, that kind of collaboration, I mean, I wasn't a client of any of them, but, but, but be that kind of collaboration with the, with the keeping side of the, but, um, but, but be that kind of collaboration with the, uh, with the keeping side of the, of the hobby rather than the breeding side of the hobby. Right. I really appreciated that a lot. Like, and, and I think everybody got something out of that. Yeah. I would, I would kind of counter that a little bit with a, with a, um,, an, an idea that sometimes we pass on the same information that's been passed on to us. And we don't even imagine, we don't challenge anything, right? You know, we don't say, Hey, why do we do that? Or why is this the thing? And so I think a

lot of times, you know, we can get in that cycle of just give me a care sheet, you know, just give me the basics, give me what I need to know. And we stop, you know, and or we just keep doing the same thing that's been done, you know. And and I, you know, I guess I kind of harp on the green tree idea. And not not to not no disrespect to some of the pioneers, because they were dealing with a much different animal than we are today. Right. They were getting imports in that had been on a boat and they were basically putting on life support to keep them alive, you know, in the hopes of breeding them. And then we took that to mean, okay, this is the basic standard of care. We need to put them on life support when they get here.

We develop certain things like keeping them over water or something, you know, just bizarre things like that are not necessary unless you're trying to, you know, sustain an animal that's on death's door. And so, you know, but your captive bred, uh, captive bred and born animal in the U S doesn't need that type of setup and would probably be a detrimental thing to it, you know, but we don't question it because it worked for somebody 30 years ago. So let's just keep doing what works, you know, and nobody challenges that. Nobody says, do you really need to do that? You know, so, and I guess that's my, the thing is sometimes maybe we learn a little bit more

in isolation without some of that advice from the breeder. And we can actually make inroads with, with our ignorance to some extent, you know, where we like may, may know something about another species and we get a related species and we just try our best and use the things that have worked. And, and, uh, and we discover something new, you know, like, oh, did you know you can keep them like this? And it works even better than what we were doing before. So I don't know, that's, that's kind of a hard thing to say, you know, don't listen to the breeder, but you know, I think there is some aspect of do some, do some individual or some, um, experiential learning with these things. Uh, that can be, you know, a dangerous thing too, because you might do something stupid

and you might lose an animal because you tried something that didn't work. And so, you know, it's hard to advise that knowing that, you know, sometimes that will result in failure. But I think sometimes we do have to fail to, to move the bar, to change, you know, to, to change what we're doing or to not just do what other people have done in the past. But at the same time, I guess if it's worked in the past well and people are having success, but how do we define success? There's so many sidebars to this comment, but I guess that's kind of my thing is don't stop learning, try things that maybe, you know, aren't necessarily used or, or you learn something new and, and apply it,

you know, I don't know. That's, I mean, I think a critical part of that, I mean, or something that really helps with that is really is uh be involved in the community right um discussing things with other breeders yeah yeah yep and and um and be collaborative with other people you know so it's one thing to like okay i'm just going to come up with this wacko idea and try it sure but um you know bounce that off of some other folks who, you know, who have some experience and can maybe give you some feedback. Like, oh, take it in this direction. Right. Yeah, that sounds good.

Except maybe this. Or I tried that. Didn't work. Have fun storming the castle. Right. Exactly. Yeah. I like that, you know, that aspect of it. And that's part of the big fun in herpetoculture is, and one of the things that's kind of, I guess, fading a little bit.

We don't talk on the phone as much as we used to with fellow breeders and keepers. And, you know, I guess we're all busy people, or we type it instead of talk it on the phone. But sometimes a good old, you know, it on the phone but sometimes a good old you know conversation on the phone can can be very instructive and some of my biggest learning experiences have been that way like thinking about things and bouncing ideas off of other breeders yeah that's a good advice for sure um one of the places that as a keeper that I've found really helpful is actually, uh, a couple of Patreon groups, um, and that they're, I mean, that's sort of, that has its own kind of, um, gating function that you're, that you're only, you're only going to be running into other

people who are really um who are enthusiastic about it and really you know and high level of dedication but um but i i also believe in just supporting people who are taking their time out into um you know share their their knowledge with the rest of the community i mean mean, like, I'm super grateful to you guys and everybody else on NPR just, um, uh, and, and a whole bunch of other folks, you know, it's, it's an amazing resource. And then for like the, like a few bucks a month, you can get access to these communities of people, um, who are often really generous with their time. right? And a lot of them are super nice

and you wind up being friends with them. Right. I mean, I think that's how I met Rob and Eric and the NPR guys was through the old school forums and some of the chats that we'd have, they used to have those message boards where you go in there and it was like a big spaghetti string of different conversations going on. And you'd have to kind of leave the room and come back and catch up, you know, try to catch up with the conversation.

But, you know, it was good times. And I think forged some, you know, good bonds from back in the day. And I think continue to do so. They change in nature a little bit. And yeah, I think these communities and the podcast umbrellas that have a bunch of different podcasts and a bunch of different chats and meeting places are great and can really bring some interesting ideas to the forefront. But I think, too, I like seeing things like the reptile talks and some of these symposia-type things coming back. And I've been fortunate to be involved with some of those and given talks at those and even organized one at one show back in the day and, or a couple of them. So yeah, it's fun to, to see that knowledge being spread and, and kind of those, those ideas kind

of coming to the forefront. So hopefully that continues and we, we see more of that and, and can be involved in that kind of thing as well. But support those if you, you know, if you're, if you have the means and opportunity to go to those, go support them and learn some stuff. It's really a great. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Are there any particular ones coming up that you're, uh, that you have your eye on? Um, just that, that I don't know if I'll be able to make it, but, uh, it's,

I think it's just called the reptile talks. Um, yeah, the reptile talks it's in California and Anaheim. Um, it's over at the Anaheim Hilton. Um, and it's, uh, May 16th to 18th. Uh, so right during prime herping time. So you can go down to Southern California and catch some talks and then take off and go hurt. So, yeah, I did. There was one back in a few years back where Alan Rapashi and Philippe Devos were getting that kind of going again. And it was what was it called? Repti something.

I'm terrible, but it went a year and then COVID hit. So we were able a cool thing. Um, but it sounds great. Oh yeah. Yeah. It was fantastic. And there were some just, you know, pillars of the industry there, you know, to, to share information and, and it, you know, it was like 150 bucks or something. It was not, not a lot of money, you know, uh, herpeton, there we go. Yeah. I kept thinking Repticon, but herpeton. Yeah. So yeah, unfortunately that only got interrupted by COVID and, and it was, it was shut down unfortunately, but I think the reptile talks is kind of a, a bit of a continuation on that. So yeah, if you can attend May 16th, 18th, But I think the reptile talks is kind of a bit of a continuation on that.

So, yeah, if you can attend May 16th, 18th, I'd say check it out. It would be really good. I'd love to go. My kid is graduating college. So close. Yeah. Yeah. I've got too many trips already planned this year. So I'm like, oh, there's ones that I can't make that I would really like to make.

But I don't know that I'll be able to make it. But I don't know. I guess there's a chance I can just drive down there real quick and catch the talks and drive home for work on Monday. Good Lord. Oh, man. Well, are there any other topics that we didn't hit on that you had in mind that you'd like to talk about? I think we got some really nice topics of conversation here. No, I think we're good.

I mean, I wrote this whole manifesto. I think we touched on a whole bunch of it. Yeah, Very good. Well, yeah, I appreciate you, you submitting the idea and preparing. That's awesome to come on here with such great insight and, and thought, thought, thought about it and appreciate it. So. No, absolutely. Yeah. I guess we kind of like to, well, first off, where can people find you if they want to, you know, hear about and such Facebook, um, Facebook's the easiest one, just pauldron. Um, uh, and, uh, yeah, that's, that's going to be the easiest one for people to find me. There's not that many many pauldrons around yeah um and especially ones that have a snake on the profile picture right so narrows it

down exactly very cool well yeah we really appreciate you coming on um we kind of pleasure and the show and you know if you've seen anything cool in herpetoculture or learn anything new and you know anything like that if i uh watched a few episodes of uh big or mark o'shea's big adventure uh it's on amazon prime video and so i i watched the uh uh the one the rough scale python episode so so great to see you know well i guess the and and i like o'shea's big adventure because they really kind of, they don't have them planted out there. You know, they don't, they don't just bring a captive one in a bag and then say, Oh, look what we found, you know, it's all real. They may not even find the target of their trip, you know? So that's, I really liked that aspect of it,

but I did notice too, like, I mean, they caught a skink and he and he was playing around and put it down Brian Bush's pants. This is on the Pilbara episode. He put it down Brian Bush's crack and then like and then Brian Bush pulled it out of his pants and put it back. And they didn't even show like he didn't even actually see the animal. I'm like, show us. Don't just play around with it. You know, like, I don't know. So anyway, that was my only critique. Mark, if you're listening. But really, really fun to see, you know, some of those adventures and, you know, chasing a Perenti down into the rocks and trying to find a way to catch it and realizing it's just too far back there and giving up you know but it's really cool yeah oh that's great that's great i i think the um the thing that i would uh

the i've been really encouraged to see some breeders really trying to up their game with um uh with preparing sort of bridging the gap between the um the breeder facility and a pet keeping home right and um uh canova i'm sure you guys know um they've started doing that yeah um i don't know if you know about this but they they've just started doing a program where for i'm not sure how much extra um but they'll they'll do temperament testing with the snakes and see which ones are are um are just immediately go hide and which ones are more exploratory and then they'll do stuff with uh, with habituating them to being handled. And, um, uh, I think they even offer target training now. I just saw that, that they're, um, that, that they're doing that. And I thought like, that is so smart, you know, I mean, it's like a win-win-win, right? That they're helping the animals and they're helping their clients and they're differentiating themselves commercially.

Or there's a retic breeder who I really like, goes by curly haired keeper abby stone and she's been doing the same thing with retics and um it's i think that's just great i think that's that's really nice to see people um and i i mean i think that those animals are really going to benefit from that kind of um uh more holistic thinking on the part of the breeder. And also the breeder is helping set the client up for a better experience. So I think that's great. I've wondered about that because I've had a few requests like that where they'd say, well, you know, can you go and figure out which one is the, the most, uh, aggressive or which one,

you know, and, and it's almost like it, it might depend on the day or it might depend on the state of the animal and you catch it, you know, you open the enclosure and it's like, is it food time? You know, I'm going to bite to, to see if I can get something to eat or, or is it, you know, really upset or, you know, you woke it up and startled it or something? So, you know, I just, I usually say, you know, if you're worried about getting bit by this animal, then maybe this is not the, you know, you shouldn't get a snake. You know, get something else. Or get a rubber boa if you ever want to get, they'll never bite you, that kind of thing. So, you know, I think it's really definitely a great concept. And I think Justin is just an innovator.

It must be the name, you know, just great innovators. But, you know, that's really interesting. I didn't know he was doing that. So that's pretty cool. Yeah. I didn't mean to start us fighting again. No, no. I'd be curious to was doing that. So that's pretty cool. Yeah. I didn't mean to start us fighting again. No, no. I'd be curious to see how that works, you know, if it actually carries through.

Because, you know, sometimes the stress of shipping will change kind of the personality of an animal or whatever. Yeah, yeah. I mean, actually, and here I am arguing against that. With having all of the scrubs, you know, of course, like when the people who are going to be getting them, every single one of them, the first question is, what's their temperament? Like, you know, are they bitey? Are they, you know, like wanting to know, like, okay, which is the friendliest one and all of that. Like, basically, there's one that's super bitey, two that won't eat, and everybody else is basically exactly the same. Right.

Well, and it's interesting, too, because, like, the scrubs that I've seen in the wild have been mostly pretty calm. Like I'll pick them up. They're not trying to bite me. And, you know, that's the king horn eye in Australia. But, you know, I've only seen five or six in the wild, so I don't have a huge sample size. But, you know, they've been pretty relaxed and haven't really been striking, but my friends that keep them in captivity, they're very nervous and respectful for their scrubs in captivity because they bite all the time. And I think about like a blood pythons. Yeah. We're getting into more of

the fight thing, but like blood pythons are kind of kept. Um, I don't know if you'd say incorrectly, but they were kept maybe too hot and too, or the way you approach a blood python is different from other pythons. I know, you know, if we get some advice from our friends that know blood pythons much better than I do, I have zero experience, so I'm just talking from other experience. But, you know, if you understand the animal, you can usually avoid getting bit because you know how to interact with them. Matt would probably be great to give that advice for sure. But, um, or Keith or, you know, any number of people that have, have kept scrubs or bloods for a number of years. But, um, anyway, you know, just understanding the animal can usually prevent, you know, I can read my asperites or my carpets very well, anteresia, but get me in a room with a boa or a blood python and I don't know what the heck I'm doing.

I'll probably get bit, you know. I think just experience and understanding how the animal works and what are the warning signs of an impending bite or how to, you know, use a hook to, to handle the animal. And most animals, once you get them out of their cage are pretty good. And, and some animals are like, they respond to the way you handle them. So if you're nervous and you're jittery and you're worried about getting bit, you're probably going to get bit. Whereas if you're confident, calm, collected, you're probably not going to get bit, but you might, you know, it just depends. And if you're not willing to get bit, Whereas if you're confident, calm, collected, you're probably not going to get bit, but you might, you know, it just depends. And if you're not willing to get bit, then, you know,

snake is probably, you know, a scrub is probably not the pet for you. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I had one guy that was like, do I have to feed it rodents? Like, it really freaks me out. I can't handle the squeal of a rodent. You know, I'm like, a snake is not the pet for you. Yeah. Yeah. It was bizarre. Like, he's like, can I see it eat? And like, he plugged his ears when I put the mouse in there. It's like, oh, my goodness.

Yeah, this is not the pet for you. Wow. Yeah. But OK, so that's totally great, though, that he that he knew what his concern was and he actually got to experience that in in real life. Right. Yeah. Before he purchased the animal and brought it home and went, oh, I can't do this. You know, right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so like all of us looking at it from the outside, look, or we'd be like, okay, that's really weird. But, but he made the right decision, right? Like he totally made the right decision as a potential buyer to go and, and actually have that experience and learned like, oh no, I'm not signing up for that. And maybe that's another thing to add to the discussion is that, you know, don't be afraid to ask questions. Don't be afraid to voice your concern. Oh, for sure. I'm worried that if I get bit, I won't be afraid of it and I won't be able to, you know, is this the right snake for me?

That kind of thing. Because, you know, you can learn the hard way. You can get it and get bit and say, oh, I never want to approach that animal again. You know, I'm going to sell it or give it away. I have, there's a friend in our, in our neighborhood that their daughter has a bearded dragon and she's, she's afraid to handle it. And so I went over there and I said, okay, this is what you do. You reach in, grab it by the tail, scoop your hand under the belly and pull it out. Look, I'll do it five times in front of you. Did it bite me? Did it try to bite me? Did it freak out? No, I'll do it five times in front of you. Did it bite me?

Did it try to bite me? Did it freak out? No, it's fine. You know, just do that. And then she's still too afraid, but she won't let her mom do it or her dad do it because you know, it's her pet and she needs to do it. And so, yeah, I mean, it's, it's very well taken care of and it's a very healthy animal. It looks great. You know, it's not overfed, not underfed. It looks really good. They have an appropriate cage for it and everything, but it's just, she's nervous about it. I'm like, you just got to get over that. It's not going to bite you.

It's a bearded dragon for crying out loud. I think she had a glove on once when she went to pick it up and it thought it was like a, it was like red or something and thought it was a berry or something and kind of did the little tongue thing and maybe tried to bite it and just a little nibble thing. And she got freaked out, like, it's going to bite me because I tried to hold it. And I'm like, it was probably the glove, you know, try again and use this method and you'll never get bit. I can almost guarantee you, you know, but. I mean, there's no substitute for in-person experience right i mean like being able to um when i was thinking about getting scrubs i went and visited people

who had them and that was super useful right like super super super useful yeah um yeah kudos breeders and keepers that let us do that. Right. Cause I was the same way. Like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And if somebody wanted to get a Northern Mexican pine snake, I would say, yes, come over to my house and look at my beautiful box of dirt. That's what that snake looks like. Right. Yeah. There's some, some empty cage syndrome animals that you can spend a lot of money and never see that animal. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you can get creative. You know, you can have like video surveillance of the cage and watch it on your phone. You know, I know I totally do that. Yeah. Sees the coast is clear and comes out of the hiding place.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, good stuff. Anything else that you guys have any other cool reptile stuff? the hiding place. Yep. Yep. Oh, well, good stuff. Anything else that you guys have any other cool reptile stuff or we good to close it out? All right. Yeah.

Great. Listen to you guys. Thank you, Paul. Yeah. As Justin said, impressive what you came with and all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. My pleasure.

And thank you guys for everything that you do for the, for the hobby. It's a, it's a pretty big deal. I don't know if, if you realize how, what a benefit it is to everybody else and how much it helps folks. So, so huge, huge gratitude. That's nice of you to say. We appreciate it. Yeah. It's, it's nice to hear that, you know, what we spend our time doing is actually getting through and being beneficial in some way. You know, you always think, ah, who cares about this or who's even listening to this, but yeah, that's, that's really nice of you to say, we appreciate it and, and we'll, we'll keep putting it out and, and, you know, that's exactly what we need is, you know, fresh

ideas and people, you know, thinking about things that, you know, that we don't, that don't come to our minds, you know, we didn't think about doing this show. So that's really helpful to have, have those suggestions. And, you know, that was kind of the, um, master plan, I guess, if you want to say that we get input from listeners who want to hear certain topics. So we appreciate it. And thank you very much for that. Yeah. Oh, I did get a new book in the mail today. I got the California amphibians book. So yeah, it's nice. It's I, you know, I'm, I'm working on wrapping up the Utah Field Guide for reptiles and amphibians. So hopefully that'll – I just got the first layout today.

So we're making a little progress, and hopefully we'll get that done here soon. Hopefully in time for herping season, but we'll see. But, yeah, it's great to compare. But, yeah, I have this certain idea of what I want in my head. And sometimes that doesn't match up with the publisher's ideas. We'll see how it works out. Well, thanks for coming on, Paul. And thank you all for listening.

And we'll catch you again next time for Reptile Fight Club.