Reptile Fight Club - What is your responsibility to keep a breeding project long term?

Episode Date: October 15, 2021

In this episode, Justin is joined by Keith McPeek to tackle the topic of "What is your responsibility to keep a breeding project long term?" People getting into a rare/harder to breed species, do they have a resposibilty to keep that project long term? Is it better to get those animals into the hands of capable people that could be successful with them? Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to the MGR Network. All right, welcome to another edition of Reptile Fight Club. We got a special one for you today. We've got the one, the only, Keith McPeak, the legend. So he just flew in into Tucson, and I picked him up at the airport. I drove down yesterday, and we're out here for some herping. So I guess maybe introduce yourself briefly, kind of say where you fit in in herpetoculture and and we'll uh talk about the topic a bit all right how you doing test it

good good long time no see since utah i know and i didn't even get to say goodbye like you guys took off i didn't know you were leaving that early or I would have come earlier. I snuck out on you. Yeah. So basically, my whole life has revolved around exotic animals. I've talked about it before. My uncle was a veterinarian who had a heart for exotic big cats. And I've just been around it my whole life. And, you know, reptiles were always a focus. Believe it or not, birds and fish were a big focus for me also. But reptiles just is the one that stuck through all the years.

I'm 61 now and I'm still out here trying to find horned lizards with you guys, you know. And if I find one, I'll be like a little kid on Christmas morning. It's just part of who we are, I think. Yeah. And, um, I've finally realized to exploit that passion and not just deal with the animals in captivity and go out and see them in the wild now. Yeah. It's, it's, that's, uh, I think that's a progression that most people make. Right. You know, and, and once you start, it's really, you're on the path to that right so yeah well i you know i i share that same you know love for all animals all nature you know i i haven't really worked with fish like you or birds as much but i've had them you know as pets and things and i i just love to see just about any

nature you know it's really really fun i went out birding a bit today and saw some fun stuff but i mean we're sitting here and there's some sparrows under a tree and I'm just watching how they're interacting with each other. You know how many people do that? Yeah, hopefully we'll get a nice mockingbird call on here. They can be really loud. There goes a flicker. Yeah, there was a flicker.

And there's a couple mockingbirds above us there. Coming out. That's always better with nature sounds, better than the car sounds that we might get on here but yeah yeah well it's it's good to be out and hopefully uh the weather cooperates and we'll be able to see some stuff i went out last night didn't see too much but uh that might just be because i suck i don't know we'll see hopefully i brought the mojo. Yeah, yeah. I was waiting for Keith to get here because he's got the Owen Pelley mojo, among other things. So we'll try his luck at this tonight and for the rest of the week.

So it should be good. Yeah. All right. a good topic for, for you here, since you're working with a lot of rare, um, projects is, you know, if you produce, uh, a rare reptile, are you kind of obligated or, or to, to see that project through, you know, to kind of see it through long-term or is it fine just to like, kind of cut bait and run, make your money while making is good, you know, that kind of attitude. So I'll let you call the coin toss. And then depending on who wins, we'll have that.

So call it in the air here. Heads. Heads. You got it. All right. Well, the luck is with the coin toss as well. So that's a good that's a good sign. I'm going to I'm going to take the position of letting the animals go. OK, so not seeing it through long term. OK, interesting. Do you want to go first or do you want to.

OK, gotcha. OK, so I guess there's there's a lot of different ways to look at this. But I think, you know, if you've kind of cracked the code on a species and can breed something that very few people can, And there's maybe a bit of responsibility or what would be really good moved on, usually people who buy into projects, some might have success. But the majority, especially if it's a difficult to breed species, will either lose interest or won't recoup their investment or whatever. And so they'll get rid of the animals. And so you see a lot of those rare animals that are just kind of passed from collection to collection. So, um, so I, I think I'd kind of start out with, you know, that idea that maybe it's a, um, beneficial, more beneficial for herpetoculture if, if, you know, somebody that produces a rare animal kind of sees that through. And, and maybe I didn't understand the point you were making when we were talking before the show. I agree with you that, so Bolins obviously for me are the ones that come to mind right now.

And I would want to hang on to the adults that did produce for me, but my thought was on the babies as far as moving them and not trying to make a big foundation aspect on it. And I'm not even talking about a monetary thing, because some people do look at the monetary end of it. And if, let's face it today, if you bred Bolins, they seem to be selling at $10,000 a piece very quickly, especially if they're true captive born in the States. And believe it or not, even I got a daughter's wedding coming up I got to pay for and everything.

I still wouldn't be selling those animals. I would be dispersing those animals to other people that I think have the ability or have already proven their ability to produce it especially with the bolans because i'm not taking away from anybody that has bred the species but they still it's a random event it's an anomaly nobody is breeding them you can't give them 50 animals and they're producing 30 out of those animals and i know some people that have had as many as 40 bull and I, and one female maybe gave them two clutches, and then their success went away. So just because you got a clutch doesn't mean that you understand that species yet. So my thought process is getting those babies out into other capable hands

that I really believe have a shot at it and expanding that knowledge beyond just me having that success and trying to pool our knowledge. I guess I'm looking at it that way more than, I think maybe your argument you wanted to talk about was, would you sell the whole ball and I project off in one shot and just get rid of it now that you did it? And I understand that. And that would be a terrible thing to do. I'm looking at it more as the babies and moving them around and trying to expand our knowledge, I guess. Yeah, I, I can, I can definitely see that. I think, you know, that's, uh, uh, very altruistic. That's, that's, uh, I, but I wonder, you know, if, if that's, that's a tricky one, because if, if,

you know, you send them off to all these people and they don't have any success, then what's, you know, what's the end point there. So it's, that makes it kind of tricky um oh there's a woodpecker over on that yeah he just flew across it i d that but sorry i get get distracted easily but um so i i guess i i um usually when you know with with uh with captive bred animals they often, I found that they do better when, when they're, you know, bred in the same place they're produced, you know, so a lot of times. So I think, you know, if, if they were held on to, you know, at least some of the babies were held on to, I, yeah, I, I would say that's probably a good thing to give other people the chance and probably move them out.

So I would, I would agree with you there, but I would think, you know, you'd want to maybe keep some back just to, to increase those chances of having another successful event. Um, I know kind of, that's what, what Chuck, my co-host is, is doing with, uh, Tracy. He's keeping a couple of clutches. So we'll see, you know, see how that works for him. We'll see if that benefits him. But, you know, once he feels like he has a sufficient number to have kind of a strong captive population, then he'll start moving things on, you know, like you're telling me. I can see a good foundation, you know, aspect at that point. But then I also worry about the genetics in the gene pool. And I'm going to go back to bowline again because, you know,

when I first got into bowline and people are like, well, they're coming from the wild. The gene pool is going to be crazy. But I understand from bird, you know collections and and other aspects of other wildlife imported that the the hunters that go out and catch these things go to the easiest place that the animals are yeah so you know you may think well they're coming from the wild that these guys are scattered all through the countryside but in reality it could be such a small area that these 40 bull and i or you know i'm using them because that's what i i know right now but they come from the exact same nests every year

that um these hunters guard you know because that's their livelihood and so i worry about the genetics if you hang on to too many animals and keep them in your collection and work with them yourself especially if it's a random event with one animal having those eggs and babies and now you're raising them up and you've just tightened that gene pool up or are you better off getting rid of all the babies to capable hands and hoping that the rewards come back to you down the road of course it would be a very long-term project that way. But down the road, you could be getting clutches from 10 different animals that were bred to different bloodlines. And in the long run, that could actually make your foundation stock a lot more solid, I would feel. Yeah, I can definitely see, you know, you don't want to inbreed.

That would be a mistake. But I also, you know, I think it takes longer than, you know, a couple generations. So if you were to hold back those F1s and breed them back to each other, I mean, that happens pretty commonly in herpetoculture. And you generally don't see issues until they're, you know, several generations down the road. And, you know, hopefully that would give other people time to kind of figure the project out and to make a, you know, make a go at it. And then you can actually swap babies and kind of broaden or diversify the gene pool. But I think for a lot of these species, just to produce them regularly is better than anything we've been doing so far. You know, Bull and I are a great example of that.

You know, how many clutches or how many people have bred them more than once randomly. You get one or two. Yeah, worldwide, you get one or two clutches a year. Yeah, and I think, is it France? Hunter France. Hunter France has bred them a couple years in a row, twice in a row. So that seems to be the best success anybody's had? No, Frederick and Mark Spataro both had five generations, well, not generations, but five years in a row of breeding success but then as to your

point frederick moved to a new house he hasn't been able to breed him since um i don't know what happened with mark's um breeding success but i know he had five but fertility's been low on on animals and all that kind of stuff um but then you know, I get to know people around the world. I, I talked to Gavin and you hear about these children's pythons that, you know, if you get them from the same range and try breeding them over there, the success rate is so terrible where if you get one from one area and one from a totally different area, you know, the fertility is so high and everything else so you wonder you know if you kept the litter and grew them up are you hurting that aspect too is that one of the key components because maybe these animals in the wild disperse so greatly that um when they are held tighter

together like that nature has already figured out that the gene pool is tight as it is. I don't know. I like the idea of getting them out to other people, I think. Yeah. I guess in regards to that, I'd point out John Weigel's success with the rough scales and that that started with five individuals and they're still going strong. But then again, they also come from a very restricted range. So you're not i mean i think all the animals that were in his captive breeding group were collected from the same area

so you'd probably anticipate they'd be fairly closely related and you know i think you have to have some you know bad genes in the mix to line up to cause issues. So, uh, island species are another great example. So, you know, I, I think, um, you know, that's, that's a difficult question to, to predict, you know, if, if something's going to happen. Yeah. Cause I know that, I mean, I, my, my children, I are from the Barker line and, you know, I've been breeding within that line, uh, for, you know, several generations and I haven't really seen any issues. They seem to do really well, except for they're getting, you know, maybe nicer in color and pattern. You can refine some of that.

So I think maybe that's another debate topic for another time, but, you know, in breeding. And I've wanted to get some, you know, experts, some genetic experts to talk about that. Cause I don't think I could do it justice, but I think there's a lot of examples that could go either way. Right. So, um, I, I really like, uh, well, I, I think of, uh, uh, Burt Langewerf. So he, you know, he passed away several years ago, and it seemed like all the projects that he had founded, he had them well established. He was pumping out animals, and everybody just thought, well, Bert will produce them. And he did while he was alive, but once he passed away, those projects became very scarce and very hard to find, even though he'd produced, you know, thousands or if not, you know, more than tens of thousands of, you know, species like the Australian water dragon. I tried my hand at them. I didn't do so well with brumation and I lost my animals.

And so I, you know, I would like another chance of those, but I kind of screwed it up early on. But, you know, that's maybe that goes to either of our points because it could go to your point, too. If you're not spreading them out and you're not making available, then, you know, then if you're the only one that has them and you, you know, die or move like Frederick, then maybe that changes. So that's kind of a that that's an, you know, I guess that could go either way point for each of us. And to your point, I mean, monetarily, if you're, if you're doing this for, you know, reasons for money, it makes sense to hang on to all the animals and be the guy that can produce them. I understand that point. But I think as you and I were talking, driving over here, you know, as we get older, our values change. And there's a lot to be said for the camaraderie of working with other people.

You know, I'm working with Paul, Matt, and Elijah with the Sanzinia. And, you know, we were successful with the animals they gave me to produce a litter this year. And it's just something awesome about sending them babies out back to those guys. So there's something to be said with working with the camaraderie of the community at that point with capable hands and, you know, different views. I mean, there were some points along the way I'm bouncing stuff off of Paul and, you know, letting those babies go instead of trying to hang on to them all at my place was kind of a very satisfying for me in that aspect also. So, you know, that's another side of it too. Um, yeah, that definitely builds

the community when you're, uh, involving other people on the projects. Um, all right, well, um, let's see if I've got another aspect of this that I, um, so in regards to, um, you know, there, there could be a nice monetary value as well, if you keep a project. So if you kind of crack the code, figure out how to breed these things, and then, you know, you hold on to the babies so you could produce more of them. That can work out where you're almost, you know, one of the few people that have them kind of maybe Burt Langworth style, I guess. And you could also sell them to people for less if you're producing multiple clutches of Bolins a year. You know, you're probably not going to be able to sell them for 10 grand a piece. So then it is a benefit to the buyer too, because they'll, the price will go down as you know, if you figure out how to breed them. So that could be another benefit of, of holding onto a project.

Right. Yeah. I could see that also. And then, you know, I think I'm looking at this too personally in my two, my, my current personal situation, you know, with, you know, I think I'm looking at this too personally in my current personal situation, you know, with, this point because I'm just really enjoying working with a little of this, a little of that and all these different things. So, like I say, I'm getting a little, you know, personal on my collection. And, you know, I would love to just disperse the babies and, you know, help other people maybe get to the point where I was with them. So it's a little selfish. It lets me keep working with many projects versus focusing on one. Because in the past, I have done that. You know, in my blood python days where, you know, something really cool pops out

and then you have to keep the whole litter and you have to keep the, you know, the sister-related and brother-related stuff. And, you know, because the possibility of that gene being there, next thing you know, you've got 40 animals that you're raising up just for this one look. So that can become very daunting. For me, in the past, this sucked the life out of a project because it just became so daunting. And worrying about if somebody else has some of those genes and they're going to be letting it go before you do and whatnot. So I think, you know, I look at things a little

differently now at this stage of my life, you know, and there's different aspects to what we're talking about. Are we talking about a morph project or are we talking about a species project? So, you know, you could tackle both of those in different ways, depending on if you're talking about a morph or, you know, a hard to breed hard to breed species obviously yeah that's a good point because i i mean morphs aren't necessarily hard to breed but you might be the only one that has them and so yeah that can that could work either way but i think more along the lines you know i think i brought up the topic as as more along the lines of a rare species so i'm i'm kind of maybe going off script here a little bit. But I think it applies in a similar way.

But like you were saying, the morphs are a little more of a competitive thing maybe. And I agree. That's not any fun to try to do that. And it's a lot of fun, like you're saying, it's a lot funner to put that into somebody's hands and see the big smile on their face when they get to work with that species. I do think that, you know, that could potentially backfire if they weren't right in it for the right reasons or if they, you know, decide the next year, oh, this is too much. I got to get out of this.

And then they liquidate the collection you know there's and you know agreements sometimes like that you you've got to be ready for those to just go and you don't have any control in in a month at that point and that can be sometimes frustrating i've i've seen that happen where you know you may be placing animal out where you you didn't want it to be bred so you either gave it away as a pet, you know, and then they turned around and tried to sell it or breed it or something. Or the market went crazy on that species, so they decided to send the cash in. Exactly, yeah. I mean, if you're, and I know you wouldn't just be handing out bull and eye to just anybody. You know, you put them in incapable and correct hands.

But, you know, lots of them in incapable and correct hands, but you know, lots of things can happen in people's lives. And I don't think you'd necessarily begrudge them if, you know, they had something they needed to sell their animals for and they sold that animal. Um, but you know, that, that would be something to be considered if, if, if, if you were, if you're listening to this and you decide, Oh, I want to, I want to do that. You know, be prepared to just not even think about it after that point. Like if they do well, that's great. If they don't, then you don't worry about it. You almost have to write it off, write it off at that moment that it leaves your house.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's for sure. So, you know, that's I guess that's one thing, you know, that I would caution you know if you're gonna do that you just be be prepared to just not think about that animal anymore right right and listen i agree with you on most of these topics but it wouldn't be fight club if we didn't so i tried to take the harder side for me too i appreciate that i'm going on four hours sleep. So, yeah. Yeah. Actually, Jersey time, I was up at two, so I don't know what happened. I'm kind of there with you. But, you know, Bull and I are still rolling around in my head, even down here on a herping trip in Arizona. Yeah. It's hard to leave a collection and not think about those animals. That's for sure. Yeah. Um, so if, uh, I guess the other thing is, is if, you know,

if you're spreading out a project, um, you know, sometimes spreading it too thin can result in, in less animals actually being produced, you know, maybe if, if, uh, uh, you know, you, if you kind of partnered up with somebody who was capable and put them in more capable hands or somebody that's got a proven track record, instead of giving them to several different people, if you just kind of had one or two people that you place those with, that might be better for the long term of the project or somebody that you knew was long term was going to do this for for quite a while or as long as you know as much of a guarantee we have in in herpetoculture but um that's maybe another aspect of it yeah and and also like i say i'm looking at this very personal as you start aging too you start wondering um you know the future of and the longevity of projects

in your care you know where maybe you can get them to some young herper who's you know shown you that they have the same passion as you do and have the same um skill sets and and willingness to learn about a species maybe that you have figured out and, you know, kind of seeding the farm that way and, and getting the animals out of your collection. Um, because you are aging and slowing down and not able to maybe see a 10 year project now at this point, you know? Um, so yeah, I'm looking at it for a lot of different reasons. Maybe then a younger crowd would be looking at it, you know? Oh, that's a good point. Yeah.

I, I, uh, I consider myself like, uh, immortal or something like I'm, I don't think about those things, but I probably should. Cause I have a little bout with cancer though. Kind of smacks you in the face and say, Hey, you know, there's things in this life that will stop you there for a little while. So yeah, that's a good point. And I can't even imagine how the tortoise people have to do this thing because that's like a two-generation pet in some instances. It's like radiateds.

I love radiateds, and I would love to have a pair of them, but I'm like at this point in my life, you know, I won't even get to see them until adult size possibly, you know. And I think Matt Turner's working with some. of my life you know i won't even get to see him till adult size possibly you know and uh i think matt turner's working with somebody he said you know it's a 20-year project you know to get him up to breeding size so you know me i'd be 81 and just uh who knows where you're at at that point in your life so you know now you start looking at stuff that you don't even want to get messed around with just because of that you know yeah yeah i i uh i i like tortoises but i that's one of the reasons i've kind of stayed away is yeah they're they require a very uh solid time commitment and not just for yourself but also you've got to find

somebody that's going to continue that on but i i guess we should probably think about that with with all projects so i think that's a you know that's a good good piece of advice is look look at the long term of the project you know not not the long term of the project with you so i yeah i would agree with that fully um yeah that's uh that's yeah something something we need to think about yeah i mean like i say you know what i just went through just makes me think of that stuff a little bit more and more and bull and i you know as an example and a lot of the rare species you know they're they're not animals and maybe that's why they're rare in captivity is they take five to ten years to mature before you can even start thinking about introductions you know even even emeralds you know a lot of people say five years, um, I'm finding six or seven years is

actually better for me. I grow maybe a little slower than somebody that's got them dialed in a little more and feed them a little more aggressively than I do. But, you know, you're looking at six or seven years. So for me also, even with the emeralds, you know, getting them out into different people's hands now because, you know, I could even have some really nice babies. And I might be saying to myself, you know what, I don't know if I'm going to see that animal to adulthood and even use its genetics in my project. So I'm better off getting it out there to some other people you know yeah i i think about you know the the burland i keep going back to bert langworth but i you know same kind of thing is like um even though you've produced a ton of them and you're and you're selling them that doesn't necessarily mean you're going to find that person with the passion that's going to keep that project going in the you know at work we

call it the bus effect you know if you get hit by a bus tomorrow what's going to keep that project going in the, you know, at work, we call it the bus effect. You know, if you get hit by a bus tomorrow, what's going to happen to your collection? You know, do you have a plan for that? And do you, and, and, and are those projects kind of thought about and cared for, especially if they're rare or hard to breed species? So that's a, that's a trick. That's a hard thing to do. So one other aspect would be if you have a pretty good-sized collection and you've kept back a bunch of babies, you have different pairs, kind of ignoring the inbreeding issue, it would allow you to try uh, try different things with those

pairs. So you could experiment with, you know, variations of your, uh, protocol. Ooh, there was that. Did you hear his call? Yeah. The vermilion fly. Get your call. They have a pretty little call. Anyway, sorry. Again, I stick to the topic here. Um, the, uh, it would allow you to kind of try different things and see if you could nail down the keeping aspect of that project even better. You know, as we all know, you know, there's more than one way to skin a cat. So you could, uh, um, try, try different things and experiment a little bit while keeping your original pair, you know, the same consistently the same. Cause I think original pair, you know, the same consistently the same. Cause I think, uh, you know, a lot of people suffer from, oh, I, I didn't breed it this

year. So I'm going to change everything I do with that. And then I'm going to do this and that. And I think we all are, I mean, you know, you, you want to make it work. You want to do what's right for that animal. And so I know, I know Chuck's a big proponent of like, just, you know, there's a lot of ways to do it. So just pick away and then stick to it, you know. And it's worked for him with the Tracy, eh? So, yeah. Yeah. So kind of to your point, though, I'm thinking, you know, now your best option with a hard-to-breed species, obviously, are captive-bred babies. So maybe even though I was successful in that litter or clutch,

I could get those out to other people that do have different husbandry techniques and whatnot, and maybe even improve upon it. Things that I'm not thinking about and maybe conditions I'm not able to provide, but these other guys, you know, doing things the way they're doing may even be even more successful. So if I get them out to different people around the country in different areas and different spots, maybe in the long term, that actually helps that species in captivity. Because they're starting off with the best they can, captive-born babies versus wild quads. And maybe we actually, you know, learn quicker that way versus me trying all my different angles on that species, you know. Yeah, no, that's a great point because I guess, you know, I think I'm probably limited in my imagination. And I think we all are to some extent, you know.

And so, yeah, having that option to do, to have some other people kind of try their hand and try their methods. That's definitely a good point. So, yeah, I guess that could work both ways. Either you could do the experimentation or other people could. To your point, though, you've got to find the people that you trust. And luckily being around and in this for so long, I definitely know 20 people that I, I value and, and their friendship and trust them so much that I just know things wouldn't go wrong.

And if things did go wrong, I know they went wrong for the right reasons, you know? So I wouldn't, I wouldn't stress about it, but I could see, you know, um, somebody maybe not as connected into the, the herbiculture community, maybe having a tougher time finding those connections to do it too, you know? So it would make it a lot easier for me than maybe some other people for getting animals out into hands that they trust. So, like I say, we look at this in a very personal manner, maybe, you know, on how it would work for us compared to the population in general. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I, you know, I think this is a definitely a good topic and you brought up some great points. And I think hopefully we've given you guys something

to think about in regards to both sides of this issue. And, and, you know, if you're considering a more difficult project or a species that's hard to breed, you know, think about some of these things. What to do if you are successful and how you might best further that animal. Because I think even though we kind of took the opposite sides, we have the same goal in mind is to make sure that other people can work with those species. When we're gone, we want our grandkids, grandkids to be able to work with a Bolin's python or a children's python or whatever other species, you know, that you're working with at that time. That's the end goal for us all should be that they're in captivity for the future. We're not taking them out of the wild anymore. And they're just here for our future generations to enjoy. Yeah. Perfect. Perfect. that's the that's the goal that's the dream for sure so well um thanks for listening and and hope hope you got something out of that

and and can take that home i i i'm really uh privileged to be able to have keith here and to pick his brain in person so this is going to be a great week i'm gonna i'm gonna learn a lot i'm sitting here just watching the birds i know distracted while we're trying to talk exactly yeah so yeah right now we're looking at gila woodpeckers there's a vermilion flycatcher there were like four or five woodpeckers just right around here and they've just been calling and looking around oh there's the elusive car horn um but yeah, the Gila woodpeckers are really pretty. They have this banded pattern on their back. Very subtle, but once you see it in the light, it's really pretty startling, the pattern.

Yeah. I saw this place online. It's kind of on the eBird website, and it said it was a decent hot spot. We rolled up here, and it was like, oh, I don't know. This looks pretty desolate but just sitting here we've seen mockingbirds the couple species i said there's a collared dove they're invasive but there's a collared dove in the tree over there unfortunately no reptiles but i guess birds are technically classified as reptiles right

no no non-avian reptiles here unfortunately well i i need to see the first one of the trip actually i haven't found any reptiles so far i found a couple toads last night yeah they were cool looking though but um so tonight will be the night right we've got keith here now we'll find them we'll find a bunch tonight but um i don't know. What are you looking forward to most finding? You mentioned the horned lizards. Any other? I know I'm going to catch a lot of flack with all the cool species here, but horned lizards, man. And any mountain kings or any king snakes would be very cool for me.

I know you guys are rattlesnake guys. You know, you guys get hot on that. And I'm going to act like it's not a big deal just to drive nipper nuts you know yeah i mean i i like i like just about anything you know i'm i'm getting geeked out by but i i really enjoy horned lizards as well i i kept a a species or two um for a while i again brumation is not my strong suit and lost the greater shorehorn lizards in brumation. But they did pretty well. I collected a couple, and they actually had babies. I sent the babies off to the Phoenix Zoo.

Yeah, I did. Yeah. And, I mean, they're probably not the best species for captivity. They were a little tricky. But, I mean, they're probably not the best species for captivity. They were a little tricky. But, I mean, it can be done. And I think people have shown that with the Mexican horn, you know, the giant horned lizard. I think if you live in an area kind of where they're from, too, it gives you a little bit of a head start, jump start. Because, you know, you're seeing a lot more of exactly what they're doing in the wild to try to replicate that in your captive conditions.

But maybe also getting the prey items is a little easier for you. exactly what they're doing in the wild to try to replicate that in your captive conditions but maybe also getting the prey items is a little easier for you yeah i don't know what were you feeding yours i i you could order uh harvester ants online and that's what they feed in on in the wild so i was supplementing with the some bean beetles and they would eat those as well but um another small you know maybe some pinhead crickets here there but yeah ants were the primary source like they well the the horn the greater short horn lizards hernandez eye is the scientific name there they're uh pretty broad they're more generalist than other horn lizards but it's still like 70 of their diet is ants so yeah but i i think those species that are difficult to keep in captivity like i i kind of sworn off i'm not going to keep any others in captivity unless you know there's some kind of breakthrough yeah or or

a a huge need for for those you know to be bred in captivity which you know there may be i've heard that the argentinian ants are invading utah and displacing the native species and having an impact on horned lizard populations in utah so i i don't know how broad that is or how far-reaching or how serious it is but it does give me concern for sure yeah i'd rather have them you know and you know this was another topic of reptile fight club is it you know if there's nowhere for them to go in the wild, is that really a conservation project if they're just in somebody's living room? There goes a turkey vulture. Yeah, we saw the shadow. Yeah, I was like, we're close to the airport. So I'm like, it could have been

a plane, but I didn't hear a plane. There's a lot of I've seen a lot of turkey vultures out here as well. But so, you know, I think I'm I'll just content myself with seeing him in the wild as long as we can but yeah that was one of my highlights in west texas was the horn lizard the texas horn lizard i missed the one uh that you guys were you maybe you hadn't arrived yet in utah i missed that one but yeah i missed two men the gila monsters that uh That chaps my hide. Those are really insane to see in the wild. Hopefully we'll see some here too. That would be the reticulated Gila monsters down here up in Utah. They're the banded Gila.

Yeah. So hopefully we get some of those. I don't know. I went down to Ruby Road last night. I guess that's a spot where you might find a thorn scrub hooknose. I mean, they're really different. Very few people have seen those. And they barely, you know, Arizona is very tippy top of their range.

So they aren't usually found here. They're generally just found in Mexico. But they're beautiful little snakes. They're really cool looking. There's just a lot of cool species. But I'm with you, too. I want to see Lampropeltis i i haven't seen a live cow king i've only found ones that had just been hit by cars so i really would like to see one of those so that would be a first for me too i actually

have never found one i in the wild yet either so that'd be very cool all right well you shine up that luck and let's let's find some stuff. We got to find our fellow herpers first. Yeah, that's true. I guess we better pick them up. I don't know. Owen got delayed, so we might just let him find an Uber out to Portal or something. Yeah.

That'd be cheap, right? Yeah, yeah. I'm sure Owen can afford that. All right. Well, yeah, I guess we'll have an update for you in another week or two on how the trip went yeah sounds good um it should be fun we'll we'll try to record uh some of the other guys we'll get another topic going um sometime in the trip if we can but it should be fun but so um thanks again keith it was great it was great hanging with you yeah this is this is a birds

talking snakes i can't beat that yep Yep, for sure, for sure. Even though we're both on very little sleep, we're struggling a little bit. You know, it was a good discussion. So thanks. Yeah, for sure. All right. Well, thanks for listening, and we'll be with you back again in another week. All right.

Thanks. Bye. Bye, Joe. Poitro Thank you. Outro Music