Reptile Fight Club - Wholesaling Reptiles

Episode Date: September 4, 2021

In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the pros and cons of wholesaling reptiles. Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland @-FBIG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to the MGR Network. All right, welcome to another episode of Reptile Fight Club. We've got a good fight for you today. My name is Justin Doolenor, if you were wondering. And with me, as always, is my co-host, Chuck Poland. Hello. So, yeah, what you got going, man? What do I got going? No, just I got... man uh what do i got going um no just um i got i so i've it looks like i've got two pairs of

williams i i paired both of them up um i actually got eggs from one of them but like in typical chuck fashion i was not fast enough to put the uh the egg containers in there so uh they're glueers uh so they they the female laid right at the back like at the i use ecos uh and she laid like right at the top in the back where like the vent is so one they're glued in there two they're way back in there so kind of not ideal um and you know that's a species that will eat their young and the the the adults can be pretty aggressive so i'm now i'm kind of like ah you know i wish i i wish i had uh been i mean i didn't you know i wasn't even i wasn't even a hundred percent sold because the female i got uh three three unsexed animals from frank pain and i wasn't a hundred percent sold because the female, I got, uh, three, three unsexed animals from Frank

Payne. And I wasn't a hundred percent sure that they were all females. Um, and, uh, I was pretty sure, but you know, I just was like, well, I don't know. And, um, I, I, I, I was literally like, ah, I'm going to, I'm going to put that in there. I'm going to put those in there, and I just should have. But it's okay. That's okay. There's worse problems to have. Is there a way to put like a deli cup around them so that you can have them kind of protected? Is there a way to slip one in there or cut one up a little?

So it's kind of almost in a – so it's like on a – it's in like kind of in the back of the cage, and there's like a little recess back there and they actually like to hide back in that. But it's like the recess behind the recess where the, the slider for the vents are. So the, so they hide back on that, on that little ledge, but then back behind that is where the eggs are and they're glued in there. So, I mean, I'm not really worried about the eggs. Like my only concern would be they'd get a little too warm being right there possibly um but my my room's so stable and i think the temperatures are good there that they can incubate there just fine uh my my concern is when those babies hatch um getting them getting them out of there okay without you know uh dad or um you know freaking

chowing them um so we'll see uh you know the nice thing about geckos is they lay more eggs and yeah for sure so so i've definitely corrected that and uh let's see i had some more grandus i got another grandus baby uh i had um i'm expecting i still have four eggs in the incubator now um so those are just so you know chugging along like clockwork um i what else i feel like there was something else um well while we're on geckos, I got a little Amy, uh, hatch out today. So that was nice. That's what's up. Nice. Yeah. So such cool species. So that was a little bit of a surprise because the other, I had another clutch that was older and the eggs crashed and died. And then one of the eggs from this clutch died as well. And then there was one remaining egg and I

wasn't quite sure if it was, if it was good or not. And so I was very happy to see a little baby in there this morning. So not a bad way to start out the day, but that is not a bad, never a bad way to start out the day. So yeah, no, um, that's, that's pretty much it here. I just, I just, uh, uh, just wanted to throw a shout out to Shane Adamson. Those people who didn't know or are not Tracy I folks, Shane got a clutch of six eggs to Tracy I. He successfully hatched all six eggs and looks like he has a nice sex ratio right down the middle. That's an amazing accomplishment, man. Uh, just super stoked for him. Uh, super stoked for more, you know, uh, privately owned, uh, uh, Tracy I in the United States. Uh, it's, it's good. I look, it looks good. It looks like we're trending and I

hope, I hope more, uh, more.S. keepers keep having success. Just hats off to him, man. Congrats, dude. It's a big one. Yeah. Wasn't there also a clutch of maluccan eggs? Maluccan? So –

Eggs laid. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't think that they're – I don't think that they are um on the ground yet um i saw the picture i saw was eggs did you yeah maybe i haven't yeah it was from marcel hawkins i believe so it's so his female was gravid and when the last i saw um if there's eggs on the ground then dude congratulations to him as well um yeah i'm pretty sure i saw that somewhere um anyway yeah it seems like a good year for somalia yeah for sure that's always nice i know those rare species uh produced in captivity

um yep my fit my finger to the sky for my people, man. That's awesome, dude. Right on. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

and we're, we're, um, getting closer to completion on the book. We, I put out a little, uh, mock cover of the,

the book that I, I saw that. Yeah. It's good, dude. You're just teasing. You're just teasing these folks. Just a little teaser. Yeah.

Should be fun. I see them. They're writhing in their seats, dude. You guys are going to have to stop teasing and take this thing to print. I know. We're just about there. It's just the way it goes. You got to be a little patient with this. It's a big process, man. For sure. We're in the layout stage now. And I don't know, man, it's tough trying to organize all your photos. And I mean, just think of the number of carpet python morphs there are and trying to get a picture of most of those, if not all of them, and having them all laid out in a coherent manner. It's a struggle.

And then, you know, not to mention trying to round up pictures of rarer pythons like Owen Pelley's or Carinata, you know, the rough scales, trying to get those for the book. And, you know, we've been very fortunate to have a lot of good people contributing photos and we really appreciate that. I mean, this is not a moneymaker. I wouldn't be surprised if we lost money on it, you know, just the amount of time and things that it takes and the amount of effort that it takes to get it to print. But I think it'll be a good work. I mean,

that's the idea we're trying to put out, you know, the best work we can do. Well, I mean, I can pretty much assure people that I've talked to Justin, you know, a little bit at length about the book and that he's really trying to bring another book, not just a reprint of the same book. So, you know, everybody just be patient. I know I give you the ribbing, but, you know, I think everybody understands that you're trying to bring that, that next level of, of, uh, the complete carpet to people. And, uh, we're, we're excited. So, yeah. And rest assured, you know, we didn't want to just slap a different cover on it and add

a few pictures or something. I mean, this is pretty much a new book. I, you know, it's, we're, we've replaced most of the pictures from the first edition. Of course, we've kept a couple that were, um, you know, really interesting natural history things, but, uh, man, we've got some just fantastic photos from some amazing photographers. And so, yeah, it's going to be a nice document of all the variety and, and, uh, interesting appearances that you can find in carpet pythons and that cover photo. I mean, goodness gracious, that, mean goodness gracious that that's a flinders flinders range is carpet uh not sure where it fits in you know it's right similar in in a lot

of ways to um metcalfi but a very different animal and also somewhat similar to imbricata in some previous genetic studies so it's hard to you know, where they fit in and they, they may, may have some common ancestor ancestry with, uh, Centralian pythons with Morelia brettili or brettili. Um, so that's, uh, you know, pretty interesting things, uh, fun things to think about and work out. We've got some ideas of how things, uh, parse out and how, you know, how things are related to each other. And, um, but you know, taxonomy, that's always a fun, fun topic for sure. Well, hold fast all you, uh, carpet fans, uh, keep your, keep your carpet under ruse on it's coming. So yeah, appreciate the patience. I mean, we should, we should have probably had it done by now, but we kind of held off for some genetic work. So that should be fun, uh, to have, uh, Warren

Booth is, is, uh, doing some, some work, uh, on, on the book as well. He wrote a couple, uh, nice chapters on, on, uh, some of the aspects of, uh, phylogenetics as well as some, um, you know, reproductive, uh, phenomena. Uh, so should be cool and cool, smart guy. I mean, Warren's, you know, he's, he's one of those real researchers that knows what he's talking about, you know? And, um, so I just have to go, okay, just tell us what this means. Yeah. I don't, yeah. So we're, we're of course, you know, uh, in, you know, indebted to a lot of these people that are giving us insights and helping us out and, uh, really appreciative of, of those contributors. And well, that's why I like the community, man. They, they're, uh, you know, good people. Yep. For sure. Yeah. Our Australian brethren over there.

Yeah. Sistering. Yeah. Helping us out, sending lots of in situ photos. You know, it just really wouldn't be the same without their input. So very appreciated. Yep. It's all about me and me mates.

Yep. And, but it should be a pretty hefty book as well. We'll have a, we're adding quite a few pages onto the book. So every time we took over a chapter, it came away, you know, almost twice as long in some instances,

if not more. So we should, should be able to double the length of the book to some extent. So nice. See how it shakes out, but it's always hard to tell just from the text, you know, I'm ready. I'm ready. You better have my copy. Set my copy aside. Yep. Yep. I'll hand deliver

it or something. Get it. There you go. Oh, I like that. That, that, that would be, that would be truly the treat, man. Yeah. Good, good place to be is San Diego. Yeah. Heck, even if it runs long and you get it in the spring and we go, go herping and answer. Oh yeah. So that'd be awesome. That's a good, that's a good reminder to,

you know, thank the patrons for supporting really a Python's radio. Definitely goes to, to help run the show here and now the whole things that go on. So if you haven't yet considered contributing to the cause and keep this, keep the show here and, um, you know, all the, all the things that go on. So if you haven't yet considered contributing to the cause and keep this, keep the show running all the shows and how many shows are on there now? I mean, they added the new, uh, Clue Brits and Collie Broids podcast.

Yeah. Great minds there. Well, I love, I really liked Zach, uh, getting, getting to know him from the podcast that we did was cool. And I'm down to support down people. I only listened to the first introductory episode, and it was really good. I have a lot of excitement and, for his podcast. It looks like it's going to be a good one. And colubrids aren't my thing, but, uh, certainly, um, a man like Zach, uh, can, uh, you know, get me, it sounds like he could probably get me into, to, to liking him. So, um, yeah, man, good, good stuff. Good stuff. All right. Well, should we get into this? All right. So let's introduce the topic today. We're going to be talking about wholesaling animals. So that's kind of a little bit of a

controversial topic. So I guess we'll kind of frame it as wholesale versus retail or, you know, the pros and cons of wholesaling, however you want to see it. But let's discuss wholesaling however you want to see it but let's uh discuss wholesaling of animals yeah we'll kind of define a little better as we as we go through this but yeah all right you ready to lose a coin toss wait you wow didn't you yeah what a jerk jesus wow you lose one coin toss and all of a sudden the the other justin comes out, I'm coming out swinging, man. I'm not. Dr. Julinder and Mr. Hyde. There you go.

Okay, you ready to call it? Yeah. Okay. Tails. Oh, it is heads. I apologize for another loss, but I can't say anything. No, don't apologize if you're not sorry. Don't apologize if you're not sorry.

Hey, you know, fake modesty, you know, you got to fake it until you make it. Hey, listen, I'll take the hard side of any topic you want to fight about, and it may not sound good, it may not be awesome, but I'll do it, okay? I'll do it. All right. Because I'm committed. I'm committed to this. I'm not sure awesome, but I'll do it. Okay. I'll do it because I'm committed. I'm committed to this. I'm not sure which side I'm on here. I, I guess I, you know, I can see maybe

some benefits of both. So, um, man, I'll, I'll, I'll go with wholesale, I guess. Okay. All right. I'll go for the good goodness of wholesaling animals to wholesalers. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I think I'm more firmly on the retail side. I'm going to try to defend wholesaling today. That's cool.

Well, I just wanted to be said that I show up for the fight and whatever I got to do. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And again, that's what this podcast is about. We don't necessarily espouse the, the views that we, uh, take on this podcast, but, uh, you know, to some extent we, we can see the, the benefit of both sides or, or either side and try to try to bring that out. Even if we don't necessarily strongly agree with it, I'm sure we can see. Yeah. It's the scientific process process we are also not always okay

winning like or losing 36 coin tosses in a row or whatever it is so just you know i went i went we couldn't know well i i won one and now i'm going back on my like 12 coin toss losing streak so so there's so i got 11 more to go now so So that's good. That's good. No, that's good. Okay. Well, I'm going to let you start it out, man. All right. That's fair. That's fair. Um, so, all right. So, all right. So retail. Yeah, I know. I'm ho-hum, ho-hum. Uh, so, you know, retail versus wholesale. I think the big problem I see with wholesaling is that probably the biggest is that it allows people to produce animals in a way that doesn't really make them kind of feel the saturation of a market. It allows them to move those animals out.

It's nice and easy. It's nice and quick. They don't have to spend as much resource raising them up, keeping them, heating them. They don't have to worry about marketing them and selling them. So it's a nice, easy way for them out. But at the same time, like in a market where, you know, lots of people produce ball pythons and we just kind of talked about this in our monoculture. This kind of ties in. It allows them to kind of just move those things out. And it's somebody else's problem.

And they can just kind of say like, well, I just produce them. I don't have to worry about where they go or what happens to them. So that's probably one of the biggest issues I would see with wholesaling. Whereas retailing, you really have to take responsibility for what you produce. And if you hold on to it, you got to feed it be responsible for what you're producing and you shouldn't, you know, be producing more than you can handle. And that's something that, you know, is maybe hard on the front end of, of this kind of thing. But once you get into it, you kind of learn the balance. But I mean, that being said, I had to make a rack, uh, pretty quickly on the fly to handle some of the additional babies that I got in. Um, so, you know, that, uh, still happens occasionally I'd say, but yeah, um, I think the, the, uh, they, they can definitely, you know,

I disagree with you where, you know, you say that they won't fill the saturation, you know, the fill the effects of not market saturation, where I see that completely opposite because if they're trying to sell to a wholesaler, um, animals that are in a saturated market, like say there's, you know, a million ball pythons available and they're trying to sell wholesalers, um, ball pythons, the, the, the wholesalers aren't going to give them much for their ball pythons. They're going to be like, yeah, I'll give you a five bucks a piece for them. And then the person producing them has to go, Oh, wait a second. I didn't pay $5 for mine. You know, I don't want to, I don't want to lose all this money on these babies. And so it kind of makes

them rethink and double check themselves. I think the alternative to that is that if, if they are desperate enough, you know, that they have to get rid of them or they produce too many and they don't know what to do with all these things, it kind of teaches them the lesson of be prepared. You know, don't, don't just sell your stuff because you can't handle it or you produce too much. You got to plan for these things or else you're going to just, you know, lose money and give away your hard work for next to nothing. So, um, it also helps people see like, um, or, you know, have that outlet for, for these things. And I think in, I would say probably the best aspect of that is it actually

kind of pushes out some of the, um, wild caught stuff that from, from that wholesaler. So, you know, they usually have those giant tables at reptile shows and they have just a huge selection of animals. And, and a lot of them, you know, in usually have those giant tables at reptile shows and they have just a huge selection of animals. And a lot of them, you know, in the past, especially historically, have been wild caught. But with the more people producing different species in captivity and potentially selling these to these wholesalers, they can kind of compete with the wild caught stuff, especially as imports slow down with things like, you know, a global pandemic or whatnot. As imports slow down, they're going to need captive bred animals from, you know, locally, local producers even more. And so they're going to pay, you know, as top dollars as a wholesaler provides for some of these captive bred animals. And I think that's pretty obvious

with the recent rise in colubrid popularity or kind of resurgence of colubrid popularity. You know, they were being produced very well and, you know, you could get some of these common species like a California king snake or a Mexican black King snake for, you know, 20, 50 bucks, pretty, pretty inexpensive, um, all day long. And now, you know, they're two, $300 a piece instead of $50, you know? So, um, which, which is a good thing. You know, I like to see, you know, animals not devalued because they're overproduced or because of popularity and then. Well, and that could be, I mean, that, that could be just a rise in popularity because people are, you know, exposed to something that they didn't kind of understand before or whatever, but,

you know, to, to, to kind of, I don't know, to, to run back. I don't, I don't, I don't necessarily think that I don't agree with you that, um, you know, uh, them not being able to sell their animals to a wholesaler makes them responsible. Um, and I think that most of the time a wholesaler will take animals. They're just going to pay what, uh, you know, what, what they can. And, and they can. And most wholesalers have their price for something, right? They say like, okay, I can sell this for this much. I'm only going to pay this for this much. If the market is so saturated that they're like, I'm giving you five bucks for that. Like that alone is kind of a why wholesaling is a negative thing, right? If it gets that

saturated that they're only going to give you five bucks for it and you're like, ah, that's horrible. Well, then the market is so saturated because wholesalers are out there doing that. And there's so much inventory of it that they're only willing to give five bucks for it, even if you retailed it, then you're struggling against a saturated wholesale market. You know what I mean? So it's almost like if it gets to that point. So what I'm saying is that I do think that generally speaking, wholesalers will pay because they want they want um they want breeders to be selling them animals because they're not in the business of producing animals they're just in the business of reselling animals right um so i think i do think that it's not really in their

interest to lowball you out to the point where you're like, yeah, I'm not going to. And there are wholesalers who are like, yeah, I'm only going to give you this. And I know breeders who will be like, yeah, I'm not going to pay that. And they go to another wholesaler and sell their animals to them. But in the same vein, it kind of goes to a cumulative, you know, sales problem or a saturation of the market problem. When, you know, if I don't, if I don't hear what I like from this guy, I just go to this guy or this gal and, and I sell to them. And then I think the other, the other thing that you said that I kind of take issue with is that a lot of times those businesses that buy wholesale also buy import. So now you're taking animals that were produced in captivity by breeders with closed colonies, and you're moving them in close approximation with animals that are imported and, you know, maybe don't have any type of,

you know, protocols around their quarantine. Maybe an importer hits them with some deworm, maybe doesn't, maybe they don't, I don't know, you know, but, you know, what it does is it takes a very clean animal and puts them in a level of risk that wasn't there just by being associated with somebody. And, and I'm not saying that all people who buy wholesale also buy imports, but everybody who's listening to this has knows a business that buys and most reptile shops buy, they will buy wholesale animals. Cause you can, if you're a breeder, you can sell them your animals. But you damn sure know that they're bringing in tree monitors and endo stuff and, you know, stuff that comes around. And, you know, we all kind of also understand how that stuff comes in and the condition it comes in.

So there's an added level of risk when you're, you know, for those people who buy wholesale animals, I guess to the breeder, it's not, you know, the, the breeder suffers no, um, you know, risk in that it's, it's the end user or the end, you know, keeper, uh, who suffers that, that risk. And when they have a bad outcome, that sucks, you know what I mean? And I would honestly say, I don't think that the breeder who wholesaled that animal had that intention for it either. You know what I mean? Sure. Well, I would hope not. I mean, yeah, I mean, we recognize that that's one of the downsides of the hobby is that, you know, animals are imported and oftentimes

don't last long in captivity and certain species are looked at as, you know, as garbage animals or, you know, throwaway pets, that kind of thing. And we definitely want to move past that. And I, I still hold to it that even if you are getting captive bred animals in an environment where they have, you know, interaction or whatever with wild caught animals, they're still going to be on average more healthy and, and, you know, more resistant and things like that potentially. I mean, there, there obviously exceptions to that, but, um, and you know, that's still an undesirable aspect of the, the wholesaler. And I think with, with wholesalers, I imagine they would understand that concept, right?

They're not idiots. And if they're going to stay around for any amount of time, they've got to be able to keep their animals clean and healthy to some extent. I mean, obviously, yeah, there's some negative examples of that that don't give a crap about the animals. And we should definitely, you know, vote with our dollar which businesses we which businesses we want to support because there are some, some businesses that do it the right way. And, and hopefully they're continuing to evolve and improve what they're doing so they can maximize the potential, you know, life and, and enjoyment of their life for the animals. But, um, you know, there's, there's, uh, having captive bred animals there, I think overall brings the bar up a bit and, and helps those animals to be better suited for, for captivity. And, you know, if they're having different protocols to keep those animals in different area, you know, the captive bred versus wild caught, I think that would be probably smart for an, for an importer to do. Well, and I mean, listen, I don't disagree with you.

I have a reptile store that has multiple stores in my area. There's one down here in San Diego. I like those guys down there. They're all very, very, they're good. They know what they're talking about. They're smart and they're reptile nerds, you know what I mean? But I went up to another store that was up north one time. And I don't remember why I was there or whatever,

but there was a whole tank full of boas that were literally all staring straight up at the light. I mean, it was like classic IBD classic ibd like i mean just stargazing and i'm like holy shit get me out of here you know and and so and and so i i i understand what you're saying and i do agree with you you know because i know these guys at the other shop and they're not they know what they're doing and they do their best. But at the same time, when you, my point is when you do commingle those two things at, you know, when something that is highly infectious gets into, you know, uh, a shop like that, where you have captive bred animals that are nice and clean when they come in, maybe they don't always leave nice and clean. And that sucks. You know, I mean, I don't, I'm not, you know, I'm not, I'm not faulting a

wholesaler for that, but it is something that, that I think that the end keeper, you know, and a lot of times in those stores doesn't really have the cognizant idea of, of, of what they're doing. You know what I mean? They don't get it. They think it's just a pet shop and they don't understand that the, that it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a potential disease vector. And, and, you know, unwittingly they have a bad experience and, and it turns them off. Cause they're like, yeah, I had this thing and it just fucking died and I don't fucking know.

And you know, it's like, ah and i don't fucking know and you know it's like ah man that sucks but you know had they bought retail you know they would not have had that animal exposed to that risk now that's not to say that they couldn't kill it or they couldn't do something dumb but what i'm talking about is something that's out of their control you know that that they they didn't and it's okay in their ignorance it's out of their control, you know, that, that they, they didn't. And it's okay. In their ignorance, it's out of their control. They could, they could be astute enough to read up to be like, Hey, I think something's wrong with this. They could figure it out. They could take it to the vet. They could do all the right things, but if they don't know in the first place, what to look for, they're gonna, they they may miss it they may have a bad outcome

um and and you know obviously you buy it from a a a breeder you buy it retail you're gonna pay a little more for it but it's clean and you still kill it yeah that that is definitely a risk at keeping animals but when you you're talking about you know you know adding disease on top of it it makes it tough, I guess. I mean, you're, you're assuming that that doesn't happen with private breeders. Of course. No, you're right. No, that that's, that's correct.

That's correct. I mean, I guess I'm always wary if there's like a fire sale on animals, you know, need to move these quick. I'm, I'm moving or whatever. Like, yeah, it's probably because they're not, they're neglected or they have a disease sometimes, you know, sometimes you get lucky and that's not the case, but you know, we're, we're, you know, looking for a deal on the animal. I don't know. I I've always found that funny in the reptile, um, industries where people will, will, you know, I, I remember somebody haggling with me at a, at the show. They were trying to get an Angolan python and they were haggling with Ben and I over this, the price of the snake.

You know, they just didn't want to pay so much for it, blah, blah, blah. And then, you know, as soon as they, you know, they got us, they whittled us down. We're not probably the most firm, you know, price people sometimes, but we weren't in the past, but it was like, then they walked across and bought a full retail, you know, uh, tank and all the little supplies and probably spent more than they did on the snake. And I'm like, wait a second, you know, how does that work? But anyway, you know, maybe a lot of times it's the opposite thing. They kind of try to make, make do with what they have or try to dust off an old tank somewhere. And, and, you know, that happens as well. But I guess the point is, is, um,

I could see how that doesn't feel good, but at the same time, I don't discredit, I don't like, I don't, uh, fault them for spending the extra money on the stuff to take care of the animal. Right. Like, you know what I mean? You know what I mean? Like, but I do, but I, but I do understand what that feeling is like, like you're gonna haggle me haggle me to the ground on this and then you're gonna just go like unnegotiably like this is the price of a tank okay i'll take it you know what i mean it's like or or they come to your table and say hey i saw the same thing on my importers table and you know they only have it for 50 bucks why Why are you asking 200 bucks? little, because they pay less, they can play around with that money a little bit more. Whereas somebody who's put the time

and energy to buy the genetics, to breed the animals, to take care of it, to feed it. And if they're going to invest that much time and they're going to hold those animals, then, you know, they're hopefully, hopefully that what they're selling you is worth the money that you're buying. Right. And that's why you pay more for animals because hopefully, um, that animal that you're buying is, I hate to use the word, a superior animal. But I definitely think that there are breeders who put out superior snakes and reptiles. I do believe that that's a thing like that. And that's why there are certain breeders who you'll never see them wholesale because they don't have to wholesale. And they ask big money and they get that money. You know what I mean? With your example of the pet shops,

though, I think we can agree that there are some really good wholesalers and some really crappy wholesalers. And so and I would also say that most of the breeders out there probably have a relationship with some of the good wholesalers. So you might be buying the same animals, you know, if, if they're in the same town as their wholesaler, you know, you might be buying the same animals from the wholesalers table as you are from the breeders table. There's, you know, that, that could very well happen. And I think a lot of these kind of, um, larger breeders, um, they understand that they, they probably can't necessarily take care of all of theirs. And so part of their business model includes selling to, um, wholesalers. And so they probably have a worked out relationship with good wholesalers.

I mean, what do you see at the end of every show? Breeders, hobbyists, you know, large, small breeders, whatever. They're making deals with the wholesalers at the show to take the extra animals they don't want to take back home and feed, you know, that happens very commonly. Yeah. So, I mean, I think in a lot of instances, you know, the wholesalers probably go to more shows. They've been more shows. They have a presence, you know, for selling animals and they have more interaction with customers. I mean, compared to somebody like me, you know, where they're interacting with people on a daily basis, selling animals. I don't do that. I'm pretty lazy when it comes to my animal sales and I'd rather just take care of them and keep them all apparently, you know, so that's, that's kind of the thing is, you know, they, they, they, they have more opportunity to sell those animals. So you could be buying the exact same animal that you're trying to haggle with the breeder and say, Hey, this, this animal's on the breeder today. They might know, Oh, that's one of my animals. You know, they're not going to say that to you, that is a possibility. But you and I both know plenty of breeders who wholesale a bunch of stuff.

And then they're really nice stuff they keep because they take it to shows to sell. And that's kind of their, their model. But my point was, wasn't that you're going to get a better looking animal, but you're going to get a similar quality of animal in terms of health and that kind of thing, you know, Maybe. I mean, I, you know, I, like I said, um, that, that, that animal that's wholesaled is, is opened up to a whole other avenue of potential problems. Are they there or are they not? I don't know, but, but, but potentially, right. Whereas, you know,

those animals that are produced in that, in that breeder's facility are only as, as much risk as there is in that facility. Whereas those, those animals that are wholesaled are as much risk as there is in that facility. Whereas those animals that are wholesaled are as much risk in that facility plus whatever they're exposed to when they leave and are moved around by that wholesaler. And to me, those guys who make a lot of deals at the end of shows, there's a part of me that kind of gets that, and there's another part of me as somebody who keeps a very small, very closed collection. Uh, I, and I think people who are

successful with stuff should really worry about their biosecurity and their closed collection, right? That is really, really important to me as a person now. And I think that, you know, that, that looseness with your biosecurity is, is something that it, to me is a really big thing now. And so that's why I kind of feel like that, that whole retail avenue is just potentially a little bit safer, you know, and, and, and, you know, you see plenty of people on YouTube who are showing off their collections who have poor biosecurity. You can watch them do it. They go from tub to tub pulling shit out, showing you like, oh, no, like don't do that. Don't do that. You know what I mean? Um, and so it's something that I

think is, is a concern. And especially when you're, you're, you're, you're moving wholesale, you're, you're, like I said, you're kind of, you're, you're, you're, you're creating a potential problem multiplier. But again, I think if, if you're going to be in that business and you're going to be selling, you know, a number of animals and having a wide variety of species, you've got to keep that, you know, you've got to take that into consideration and also have, and, and I, you know, I'd imagine maybe some of these wholesalers have a better biosecurity plan than some breeders out there. You know, like you mentioned, I don't think it necessarily is, is a dividing line between retailers and wholesalers. And, you know, when, when, when we include retail, you know, we're including pet shops that where you saw that issue and things like that, you're paying

top dollar, probably more than you'd spend at a, uh, with a breeder to buy an animal, um, from a pet shop. And so, you know, it's kind of a tricky thing that way too, because you, you're selling to a wholesaler, they're going to buy low and sell high, you know, for maybe a little bit more than maybe the breeder could even sell it for. So there are some, they, they do need to keep their stock happy and healthy to some extent. And, you know, there, there is that consideration. I mean, I think you're evolving and improving as I do agree with you. I do agree with you that I do think, well, yeah, me too. Me too. And I do, I do agree with you that I think things are evolving and things have improved. Um, I, I even think when you look at like the import stuff, the way stuff used to come in imported

versus how some, some stuff comes imported imported now some of it's a lot better i never touched my tracy i as far as worming them nothing i did nothing to them and they are fine they're fine absolutely fine they were you know 100 grams when i got them so they were probably some of the smallest imported tracy i're probably going to get, but that's the best place to start as it is, you know? Absolutely. And that's a huge part. That's a huge part of it. Anyway, but back, my only thing around like a wholesaler is that if they have employees, you know, the wholesaler might get it, but you have an employee that you're paying, whatever you're paying that employee, their primary thought is, hey, it's my job to clean these cages.

It's my job to change the water bowl. It's my job to do this. They're not paid to think in terms of biosecurity. So now that's not to say that, you know, in my business, training is a huge thing. If something happens and they're not trained, it is a huge deal. So for me, if I have an employee, I ensure that my employee is trained and that he has signed that training roster so that if anything happens to a multimillion dollar aircraft, I can say, oh, we talked about that. Here's the sheet. Here's his name. He signed it. He was trained. I don't know if that's

happening in, in kind of a wholesale, you know, it's, it's much more of a cat. I mean, I work in a high precision, high risk, uh, industry. So I, I, you know, I don't think other people think like that. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, and, and, and, you know, I, I, there are kind of an increasing number of maybe more smaller, you know, more compact or importers, like where they're not bringing in a ton of animals. And so they can really care for the ones that come in. And, you know, maybe those are rarity. I think like Dan Mullery. Yeah, yeah. I think like Dan Mullery, he doesn't – well, to me, to my knowledge, he doesn't bring in a lot, a lot of stuff. But the stuff that I have seen that comes in from him is good stuff.

It looks good. So, yeah, I definitely don't think that all importers are created equal. And that's an important distinction for sure so you know i guess that's the main thing is is anybody that's considering buying an animal can weigh these things and say you know oh there's a risk of this or there's a risk of that and and and just kind of check the animal out and i think that really precludes kind of this uh idea of impulse purchasing you know new new keepers are notorious for that, where it's, it's hard not to get excited because honestly, there's so many cool animals out there

and you go to a reptile show and you're like, holy cow, look at all these cool animals. You know, I'm in heaven here. And then they just buy and buy and buy. And then they're like, oh, wait, what do I do with, you know, now I got to get cages. Now I got to scramble. So there's not, you know, I've heard, but on the other side, if you're doing your research, you know, a wholesaler might be your only option for something like a Tracy, where only, you know, Chuck Poland's producing Tracy and, and, and so, and he's not letting any go. So where do you get them? You know, the only option is through an importer. So you just do your research, find out the ones that are, you know, bringing animals, you know, have

relatively young or clean animals and, and, you know, make your decision based on, on those kind of things. Um, you know, research and planning and patience is always better than trying to rush something. So you can get that project in your hands and get going on it. You know, there's, there's a lot of opportunities and things that come along if you, if you can be patient about a project. Well, and I think if you, you know, if you, if you buy through somebody who, who is a wholesale importer and, and you find import animals, sometimes you got to take that animal and you got to fix it. You got to rehab that animal. You got to worm it. you got to take that animal and you got to fix it you got to rehab that animal you got to worm it you got to take it to the doctor you got to i mean you you know i mean

my traci i didn't they were fantastic when they they still didn't eat i still had to get them to eat and still like i mean like i kept them in a closet in my front room in tubs and drop fed them until they started feeding. And I mean, it was still like in the best scenario, I still had a difficult time and I was pretty stressed. I was way more stressed out than they were, you know, and I couldn't even imagine paying the prices that some people are paying now for imported stuff that's coming in. But, you know, so to go back, I want to toot retailers' horns a little bit. And to you, you know, I mean, I think that a lot of what you do, you have a lot of really interesting, that you have built an interesting, amazing collection of animals and you reproduce those animals, right?

And I think that retail is an important way for you to showcase who you are as a breeder and it articulates the passion that you have and the fascination that you've found for Australian pythons. And so if Justin Juhlander were just to wholesale his stuff, some of the point, some of the, you know, the passion that you have and really who you are as a reptile breeder gets lost. And I get that there's, you know, a convenience and a, you know, uh, not only our contributions, but, but, but, you know, how we care about what other people care about. I think retail is something that, that, that is the only way to do that. You know, it's sitting at those tables. It's, it's making that website. It's, it's, you know, it's being, you that website it's it's you know it's being you know it's justin julander being the face of uh you know of aar right sure yeah i i can see that but at the

same time like i go to a reptile show and the the busiest table at the show is not my table you know it's the well that doesn't make it right importer table and the table that has the most you know variety and the most and you know i kind of honestly i kind of like get down there and peek at stuff and go oh that'd be cool to work with or oh look at that animal you know that kind of thing but um you know i'm i'm i i don't really have many new projects i want but you know i like to look at some of the diversity and things on some of these big tables, but they're always packed. I mean, there's always like standing room only, you know, around the edges and they're waiting to talk to the sales representative.

So, you know, let me ask you this because I, I, I will admit my ignorance and, and, and, you know, that was laid bare a little bit in the, in the last podcast, uh, uh, you know, about social media and, and, and the fact that I don't participate, like I, you know, maybe I should, but do you see people clamoring to talk to the, you know, um, the, the, the pet, the importer, you know, the importer wholesaler pet shop guys, uh, like they want to talk to the breeders, right? Like the idea that, that, that the Ken Foose or, or the, the, um, Lauren, um, uh,

what's triple a Lauren, um, Lauren. Yeah. His last name's escaping me, but, but I don't hear those guys on podcasts i don't hear those guys out in public because they're just running a business they're just moving they're just moving and selling it they have no interest in doing anything to promote their you know like like it's a business to them now. I disagree with you on like Ken Foose. I mean, rest his soul, but he, he was very extremely knowledgeable. He knew a lot more than, you know, he'd probably forgotten a lot more than most people know in,

in regards to reptiles. And I mean, when you, when you're around such a variety and diversity of species, you kind of have to know a lot about a lot of animals. I mean, I've I've kind of specialized in a certain number. So I I know a lot, you know, probably more than than than most people on in regards to like carpet pythons or anteresia or whatever. But, you know, talk to me about boas and I don't know much at all. You know, I have a very minimal rudimentary knowledge of boas. And so, you know, there's there's definitely some benefits and some things you can glean from an importer that knows a lot about a lot of animals, you know, and or or maybe a medium amount about a lot of animals they still know they still have that huge knowledge base and so i do think that you know if they're at a show i mean yeah you're right sometimes when your business gets big enough like probably lauren with triple l um they may not be at all the shows

i'm sure they they aren't able to go to all the shows that triple l is at i could be wrong but isn't lauren on the board of us arcC? Yeah, I wouldn't doubt it. Hold on. Go ahead. I know Ken Foose was a member of different herpetological societies, if not the president at some time or another. And I mean, he know, there is, uh, if they're successful and if they're, if they're a good importer, they're going to have to know a lot about a lot of different species, especially those species that come in commonly and, and, and maybe some of the rare stuff that they can get in or, or work with.

And, and like I said, a lot of these guys are buying captive bred animals from different breeders. And so they need to have kind of a relationship and a knowledge. You're not, you know, if you're, if you're a responsible breeder, you're not just going to send out your animals to just anybody. So I think, you know, at the show, if you have a choice of four or five different importers, you're going to know who you want to deal with and you're going to want to deal with the people who are most knowledgeable and that do the best job of keeping those animals happy and healthy. So, you know, that's kind of the selection process that weeds out the garbage. Not to say that they can't persist like a cockroach in a nuclear, you know, storm or something,

but they definitely get weeded out faster than the knowledgeable and responsible importers. So I definitely think there is a place for that. Let me clarify. So Lauren is definitely on the is a place for that let me clarify so lauren is definitely on the on the board of directors for usr and what i am saying is that you know these business owners like lauren um you know like jeff ronan like like a lot of these guys who are on who contribute to the community they contribute to the community in a way that secures their business, secures their livelihood, secures their love.

But they're not going out, you know, doing podcasts. They're not, they're not, they're, they're businessmen. This is their business. They're probably really busy with 100%. I mean, a hundred percent, you know, I, I guess if they're at all these shows and they're talking with all these different people, then, you know, they're going to or they're training their people and teaching them about the animals. That knowledge gets dissipated and gets put out to the to the people who eventually wind up with the animals, hopefully. And I'm not trying to say anything disrespectful.

I'm not trying to say anything like, you know, I don't know. Listen, what I am trying to say is that a retailer is going to be either on his website supporting you through through through this great social media that you so well argued in our last episode, or you're going to see them at a at the at their show uh you're going to interact with them those are going to be their animals on their table uh and and they will be taking responsibility for them just like you do or you're going to go do tomorrow right yeah wasatch reptile show well it's the reptilian oh it's the other one it's the new one yeah see damn i thought i thought i was gonna make a nice little like and i didn't it's Oh, it's the other one. It's the new one, yeah. See, damn. I thought I was going to make a nice little like, and I didn't. It's all good. It's all good. Yeah, no, I get that. And it is hard to run a big business like Triple L.

Sure. But you look at, like you said, the example of Dan Malary where he's putting out videos. He's showing animals in their natural habitat. He's doing all these things to educate people and keep them informed about the animals that he's importing and providing. And Dan's the real deal. He is the real deal. I'm just saying, you know, there's definitely. 100%.

And there's a lot of retailers or, you you know, personal like people like me shows not not that I do this, but they'll just sit back and fold their arms and sit in their chair. And if you want to buy an animal, buy the animal. Don't don't sit and try to chit chat with them. You know, they're not they're not outgoing. They're not trying to engage you in conversation. I think that's intimidating for a lot of people to go up to that table and just see kind of a you know somebody who's interested in talking or sharing they're jaded to the tire kicker right yeah like they want to make a sale and if you're not coming in like you're gonna buy something and let's be honest i mean you know at a show you do deal with a lot of people who

just come up and you're like oh that's that's cool. That's interesting. Can you tell me about that? And I get it, man. Like I'm, I'm the, I'm the get off my fucking lawn guy. Of course. I'm kind of like, Oh really? I gotta tell you about it. Okay. I'm lucky if I don't get my, you know, lose my voice at reptile shows. I'm just talking the whole time, you know, trying to educate. I always love to say, Hey, have you ever heard of the, you know, the anteresia complex or the anteresia genus or whatever, you know, trying to educate. I always love to say, Hey, have you ever heard of the, you know, the Antaresia complex or the Antaresia genus or whatever, you know, get people interested in things they may never have heard of, you know, because isn't it cool that you're looking at the smallest Python in the world at my table, you know, come

on. And you've never heard of it. You didn't know there were Pythons that were two feet long, you know, come on. That's, that's interesting. And isn't that the awesome part about being a retailer is you get to sell your love right there at your table with your animals that you produce. Sure. But I guess I'm not saying that that's exclusive to those people. And I would say too, that a lot of the retailers, sorry, a on. I would say that's, well, I would say that's exclusive to you because nobody else gets to sell your animals at your table with your, with your passion. Other people can do what you do, but it's you, you know what I mean?

And like I said, they may not have that zeal and they may sit there. So I'm not saying that that passion and excitement and energy and love for an animal is restricted to retailers. You know, you can get that on either side. and the love that you have it comes through and like we were talking about on the last episode you know carrie king will sit back like i'm a rock star i'm cool because he is but when you come up with like hey man let me check out your carpet pylons he's like oh man let me show you this check this shit out right yeah you know what i mean like and everybody who sees that, like I keep bringing up, is like, that's what's up. I recognize genuine love and admiration for this when I see it. And I think that's something that only a retailer can give you. You know what I mean?

You'll never see that from – now – Never. Well, not never. Like I said. We don't use those words. Listen, my guy. Yeah, you're right, right? My guys are the shop I go to.

They definitely have some passion for some stuff. We chat. They know I've read Tracy Eye. And they're super geekeded and we talk about stuff. Their passion is definitely there, but it's not the same thing as interfacing with a customer over something that is wholly your passion, wholly your product, and all right there for them to interact. So they understand. They get a chance to interact with Justin Julander, whose vision was Australian addiction reptile. And it's right there in front of them.

And last year's babies or this year's babies and last year's babies, whatever, is right there in front of them. And last year's babies or this year's babies and last year's bait, whatever is right there for them to see. And you can talk about that. And like, it's, it's so much more than what, uh, uh, uh, a wholesale, even somebody who's savvy as a wholesaler can give you, you know what I mean? You, you, you, you give somebody such a more robust, um, delivery, you know? All right, man, you're trying to get my guard down with flattery and it's, it's really working. No, maybe I found the chink in your arm. Flattery will get you everywhere. No, I, you know, I, I see, I see what you're saying. I, you know, I agree to, to a certain extent, but I, you know, I, I, again, I don't think it's

exclusive to, to those people. And, and I mean, how many, how many, you know, small breeders or retailers or whatever, haven't dreamed of having the huge warehouse full of reptiles and attending every reptile show and making it a business like the wholesalers do, you know, warehouse full of reptiles and attending every reptile show and making it a business like the wholesalers do, you know, I'm sure Lauren was keeping reptiles in his basement, you know, and, and, uh, and had, you know, that same degree of passion. And yeah, I mean, as you build a big business or empire, I mean, you look at some of the big, uh, breeders that, that do produce their own animals, they've, they've got to run a business. And a lot of times they're not even working with the animals themselves. They're basically training employees

to work with their animals and they're dealing with customers or those kinds of things or going to shows or going and making YouTube videos or whatever. So they're not necessarily on that front edge either. So I don't think what you're saying is exclusive to retailers. I think wholesalers can have that same passion and excitement and share that just, you know, in different ways. It just doesn't translate because… But again, you know, I'm only at two shows a year or three shows a year. You know, these guys are attending… Okay, so I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about Nick Button then year or three shows a year. You know, these guys are attending. I'm not talking.

Okay. So I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about Nick button then. Sure. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, here's a, that's a, that's a great example of a guy who.

But if you, if you know, if you go to Nick mutton's table, you, you have a limited number of things that you can talk to him about, right? Pythons, you know, maybe some of those island boas, things like that. You try to talk to him about geckos or monitors or something. He'll admit, I don't, I don't know about them. I don't really keep them. I don't care that much, you know, about those, those groups. So I'm sorry, find somebody else to talk to, because I can't really chat with you about that. You know, you can go to a wholesaler and you can talk about monitors.

You can talk about geckos. You can talk about pythons. You can talk about colubrids and they, they know it all right. They can have excitement and passion for all of them. And if they don't have it, if the person helping you doesn't have it, there's like 12 guys at the table and they say, Hey, Jimmy, you know about monitors. Come over and talk to this guy. I don't buy that. I don't buy that. You don't? You need to go to more reptile shows and you'll see it. Listen, no, it's not about me. Listen, this is not a me problem. This is a what you're saying problem. You're saying that those wholesalers, they know more about all those monitors that they get no

they don't no they don't you don't think so no monitor monitor monitor they know a lot more about those monitors than nick does he'll tell you that well yeah but that's what i'm saying is what i'm telling you maybe their knowledge isn't on pythons isn't as deep as nicks if you go to their table you can learn about pythons and geckos and, you know, colubrids and, and, and, and, right? But that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying, bro, is that those people who want to learn about carpet pythons are going to go to Nick's table. Those people who are going to want to learn about, you know, Australian geckos and and anteresia and carpets and you know and you know things they're going to your table right but what i'm saying is they could go to the

wholesaler's table and get but he doesn't a decent amount of knowledge on the same subjects i don't buy i don't buy okay so i i got to go that so I got to go herping with Rob. He works at Nerd, right? Yeah. Rob Christian. And he has his own podcast. He's very excited about Somalia and scrub pythons. That guy knows a lot about a lot of things. He works for a big breeder slash wholesaler, whatever you want to call nerd. They have a ton

of different animals. And Rob was very, had a very broad knowledge base on a lot of different species, insects. I mean, we were all going to him to talk to him about spiders, you know, things like that, where I guarantee the people who work for these importers and wholesalers, if they're a good you know company like nerd or triple l or whatever whatever you want to talk about they're gonna the the people working there are are passionate about reptiles you don't work in a place like that unless you're passionate and have some knowledge so so one i don't disagree with you that Rob is a bad motherfucker. Okay. I don't know Rob personally. I've never met him personally,

but, but I know him through social media enough to know, yes, he's a bad motherfucker. And motherfuckers that work at nerd are bad motherfuckers. Why? Because they're breeders there. They're breeders.

And they've been breeding species that they've been breeding. They've been breeding veranda species that they have down. They have been, they have been working with Somalia. These guys are also wholesaling, right? Buying wholesale clutches. That's what I'm talking about. These guys are the ones that have the giant show. How much wholesale clutch buying are they doing?

For certain species, I imagine it's quite a bit, right? You can speak on that definitively i i mean i again i i interacted with rob for a few days so i don't know all their business models and things but i know a lot of the big breed i mean he's you brian barcheck for crying out he's he's having unboxing videos of all these ball pythons we're definitely not talking about Brian Barczyk right now. Because he's a big gringer is what I'm talking about. No, I know. So he's buying clutches from other breeders. Rob would be pissed off at you right now if you threw Brian Barczyk and Nerd in the same.

I think Kevin McCurley and Brian Barczyk are good friends. They visit each other and they're buddies. I know, but they don't do the they're they're kind of the old school pioneers or whatever i get that but they don't do the same things sure they do i mean any of these big breeders any of these big companies of are they going to turn their nose down at a clutch of you know captive bred animals that they may not have and want to increase the the broadness of what they're selling in their shop or at reptile shows. Of course, they're going to buy that clutch.

Of course, they are. They're part of this group that's buying up clutches at the end of reptile shows. So Brian Barczyk is selling large numbers of difficult to breed varanids. No. You're focused on the varanids. There's more animals than just veranids that nerd works with they have a huge i get that i get that collection they have a bunch of indonesian first of all you didn't let me read okay okay yeah but they're they're breeding somalia

they're breeding lots of somalia there they're breeding some really hard to breed stuff yeah yeah right am i wrong i mean no you made a face that doesn't mean that doesn't mean they made a face at me am i wrong well i i don't define large numbers of somalia i mean they might have gotten a couple you know clutches here and there i don't know that they're they're that successful at producing large numbers of somalia. Who's really successful at breeding large numbers of Somalia. They do it about, they do it about, they do it about as well as anybody.

But does Brian Barczyk do it? But how many of their breeders are imported? I mean, Barczyk, Pat Scrubs. We're getting off track, but the point, the point I'm making is that I think that retailers are the best suited to sell their animals to people because they're getting a better animal, potentially, they're getting somebody who bred it, who's interested in it,

who knows about it, and who's trying to make a connection to somebody that they had. And whether you're talking about Kevin McCurley at Nerd or Rob Christian, they get that too. Because I don't, I don't, I don't classify those guys as wholesalers. Do they, do they probably possibly buy some wholesale here and there? Yes. But primarily what I classify those guys as breeders. And maybe it's, it's maybe that's a, a, a mistake on my part of how I, how I interface with them or, or, or understand their business model, but I don't think so. All right. Well, I think we're, we're looking at closing statements. Do you want to add anything or is that your closing statement? No, I have nothing more to say to you, sir.

All right. Well, you can see, I got your goat this week. All right. Things are working. I'm trying to listen. I'm trying to bring some feisty to this yeah no it's it's appreciated it's good stuff well i i let you walk all over me to be honest i listened to the last episode and i was like he's right i missed so many opportunities to challenge him on stuff that i should not let slide anymore and sir and, I am not letting it slide anymore. Okay. And I would, I guess I'd finish out by saying you're going to find that level of passion in, in the, the wholesalers as well. They were once most likely retailers at one point, they were likely breeders, you know,

small numbers of animals and, and, you know, the people that work for wholesalers and the wholesalers themselves came from somewhere, right. They came from that same area and their passion has just driven them to expand and make it bigger and, and whatever. So whether or not, you know, there's some bad apples out there, of course there are, but I mean, the, the, the wholesaler has that important area in our hobby where they're interacting maybe at a more frequent basis than some of the retailers are, some of the smaller breeders. I mean, I've got a day job. I can't be on the phone talking reptiles all day, whereas they kind of can, right? They have people coming in their shops. They're at shows.

They're, you know, peddling animals pretty much all day. So they have to know about the animals they're selling. They have to know, you know, how to get people to buy those animals and get excited about those animals. So, you know, I think there's definitely an important place in our hobby for those wholesalers. And so hopefully, you know, I'd like'd like to see the quality keep, keep going up and keep getting people that are not looking at reptiles as throwaway pets. You know, they're not just going on, but let me bring in 12, 1200, you know, and alls and maybe a third of them will die and that's okay. You know, they want to make sure that each animal that comes into their care is, is looked after. And that's kind of what we should be moving towards. But, you know, that's, that's I think we're getting improvements in that area and we're seeing, you know, these, these wholesalers get more captive bred animals in, you know, that they're selling. And I think this is, is, is important to, to consider. So that's kind of how I'd finish this out, But it's definitely been a lively discussion, my friend.

I try to keep it lively. Yeah, I think you brought up some good points. And, you know, I've always kind of had maybe a negative outlook of wholesalers. And so I think that's kind of why I wanted to pick the side I did to kind of think about the other side. And I do think, and I'm just going to say this because I didn't really touch on it in the discussion, but you know, we had a whole show about, about, you know, valuing reptiles and how, how they should be valued and how that works out in, in,

in helping to moderate the saturation level of the market. And, and I, and I, I do, And I guess I did a little bit touch on it, but I do think that there is a very distinct correlation between retail sales and saturation in the market. And I think the more people have to retail their own and take responsibility for their own animal production, the better regulated the market becomes. If you have to take care of hundreds upon hundreds of animals that you just pop out every year and dump on somebody else, the easier it is for you to behave irresponsibly. But if you got to pay that power bill and you got to feed all those things and then you got to sell them all, like you're going to make some

probably slightly more responsible choices. And if that means better priced animals that you can, you know, rather than producing 200, you produce 100 and you ask a little bit more, you know, better outcome for the animal, better, better moderation for the market. And I, I, I, again, I'm such a fan of the, the idea of, of the, you know, the framework, um, moderating the, the, the, the market economics. And I, I, I believe in that appropriately priced animal that is responsibly

bred, sold and taken care of. And I think if that can happen in a framework, it leads to the best outcome. So I think that's probably how I'd end. Um, and yes, definitely a great debate uh i i'd like i you know you're my man dude uh that was a good one for sure so um yeah fun fun times yeah for sure i i it's it's good when we get lively right that's yeah for sure i just gotta stop let you walking all over me i don't feel like I walk over you. Yeah, of course, because you're like, I won that one. I will concede nothing. Yeah, I know. I know. I know. That's what I got to deal with every day. some really good points and there are a lot of different facets of, of this concept. And, you know, it's really kind of almost hard to define it because a lot of the wholesalers fit in the retail, retail market, cause they're asking more than some of the breeders on some of these

things. So it's a, it's a, it's a push pull. It's a, you know, there's, there's, like I said, man, nothing that we debate here is an easy argument, right? It's not. It is not. And even though like maybe, you know, on an episode you bring up like points that make me look like I don't know what I'm talking about or I vice versa. Like the point is that even though maybe one of us didn't argue the side perfectly, it's still a difficult thing to talk about, you know, because, because what we're talking about is in generalities, or we're talking about a specific example when we really should be talking about what the entire group looks like. And maybe nobody has a great idea of what that is. You know what I mean? So it's, it's, it's tough. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But we, you know, we, the, the important points are that you're, you know, i mean so it's it's it's tough yeah yeah yeah but we you know we the the important points are that you're you know keeping in mind when you're buying an animal you know think about where it's coming from think about 100 think about you know all those kind of things that we discussed and you know if if the you know if the best thing you can do is buy a tracier from an importer because that's the only option just make sure you get it from a response you know as responsible an importer as you can find or or try to try to get, you know, from somebody who has a good track record with other people that comes highly recommended, do some research, you know, figure things out before you buy the animal and, you know, you're going to have a better experience

all around. Absolutely. And I, and you know what bad things will happen, but, but, but that's, and I think you're right. I think, I think those, whether those wholesale importer, you know, folks, they're doing the best they can too, man. But it's just, you know, there's a lot of stuff that's that, that sometimes you can't control, you know what I mean? And, and, uh, you do the best you can, you try the best you can. And, and so, you know, in my thing is like, I can control it. What happens in my facility, in my, you know, in my area of, of operation more than I can control anything else. And I, I, I can guarantee you the safety of the animal that I'm selling you better than anybody else can. That's all I know. That's all I can tell you. You know what I mean? Yep.

Yeah. Well, cool, man. Any closing words you need to, of course, you know, listen to the Morelia Python's Radio Network podcast. There's some really great content out there. Thanks again for Eric and Owen for starting this mon uh, monolith and, and for letting us be a part of it, but hit that Patreon button, uh, subscribe if you can, or, or, or, uh, you know, uh, chip in, uh, it's greatly appreciated. It goes to good things. Uh, you know, pod father is, uh,

a man of, of, of, of great love. So, um, get, you know, spread the love with him. And, uh, you know, for me, once again, Shane Adamson, good job, dude.

Uh, super, super pumped about the, the, the, the Tracy. I, so that's all I got. Yeah.

Thanks everybody for listening. And, and we're, uh, we'll catch you next week for another episode of reptile fight club. We're freaking out. Thank you. Bye.