Retronauts - 516: Willow

Episode Date: February 27, 2023

In 1988, as the Star Wars fields lay fallow, George Lucas gave us a fantasy epic he assured us he'd been dreaming up for years: Willow. This tale of magic and mystery spun the story of a humble hobb��er, Nelwyn—and his incredible journey to deliver a thing to a place in the manner of J.R.R. Tolkien. Needless to say, Willow didn't amount to the next Star Wars, and after a few video game adaptations, the book on Willow seemed forever closed... until very recently! With the recent Disney+ series freshly behind us, there's never been a better time to look at the legacy (if any) Willow left behind. So join Bob Mackey, Jeremy Parish, and Chris Baker (of Willow Talk) as they dress in their finest Renaissance Faire gear to discuss this blast from Lucas' past that's gotten a new lease on life.  Retronauts is a completely fan-funded operation. To support the show, and get two full-length exclusive episodes every month, as well as access to 50+ previous bonus episodes, please visit the official Retronauts Patreon at patreon.com/retronauts.

This week on Retronauts, we're simply mad about Mardigan. Hello, everybody, welcome to another episode of Retronauts. I'm your host for this one, Bob Mackey, and today we're talking to another episode of Retronauts. I'm your host for this one, Bob Mackie, and today we're talking about Willow, the 1988 film, the games, and the new Disney Plus limited series. Willa has never been more relevant than ever before in the past 35 years, and we've got some experts to talk about it. I consider myself a Willow expert because I just watched it twice.

Before we move on here, who is here with you today? Who is in North Carolina? Who's here to talk about Willow? Hey, it's me, Jeremy Parrish, and I thought we were here to talk about the Cotton Shooter series where they're after Willow the Candy. That's not what we're talking about? No, in fact, I'm surprised there wasn't a lawsuit. Isn't that also a fantasy thing?

It is, but it involves like a fairy and a bikini, so it's way racier than George Lucas worked in. Well, actually, no, you had Princess Lane, so I don't know, kind of conflating things there. Well, who is our true Willow expert, our special guest today? This is Chris Baker. I thought we were here to talk about Willow Smith. Oh, you know what? very talented, but she is a nepo baby, and we don't like those here.

Fair enough. We can talk about 1988 fantasy movies and their games then. Yeah, Chris Baker, I actually have a Willow podcast, believe it or not, called Willow Talk. Me and my co-host, who used to work at LucasArts with me, Cameron Sui, we talked about, started out just talking about the movie because we liked the movie, and then we did it right before the show started, so we have like recaps of all the episodes and everything. So, yeah, it's a, we're told we're good. So whatever that's worth.

Yes, Chris Baker is the guy with the Willow podcast. He should be on our Willow podcast as well. And it's called Willow Talk, correct, Chris? Yes, Willow Talk, available basically on all your fine podcasting platforms. Before I continue, we'd like to set the stage with our own personal experience. And I do want to start with Chris. Chris, you are the man who started a Willow podcast. Surely you have some background with Willow.

yeah you know way back uh 1998 in may of 1988 it came out and i saw it opening night with my uncle uh i remember looking forward to it for several months knowing almost nothing about it other than i heard on the radio that george lucas was making a new movie and of course in the back of my head as like a huge star wars fan i was like maybe there's some secret connection to star Wars here. There's not. I mean, arguably there is in some ways, actually. But, you know, so eventually I found out what Willow was as the months went on.

And, you know, I was actually a big fan of like the Rankin' Bass, Hobbit and Return of the King cartoons also. And so I had like that kind of itch for fantasy as well. And it really did come like a really good time. And, you know, I just. found it to be a very fun enjoyable movie about a year later it was on cable i recorded it on my vhs like everybody did and i'd watch it you know once or twice a week for a while i haven't watched it that much since uh but you know i did watch it fairly recently and i still remember everything

almost line for line yeah so when the time came that the show was coming out uh i had actually bonded over willow with my friend cameron suey at uh fucus arts and we were like you know there's nothing really out there about this. So why don't we just do our own thing and we can talk about it weekly. And that's kind of how that all came about to. Well, I have you on, Chris. You have a Willow podcast and also you're giving the Gen X perspective. I am but an elder millennial Dikini. I was very little when this movie came out. So Jeremy, where were you upon the dawn of Willow? I definitely was aware of Willow. But I don't know when I first watched it. I don't, I don't, I don't I think I saw it in theaters.

You know, we might have seen it at like the dollar theater when it was on its second run because there used to be dollar theaters and we lived by one that was actually pretty close to us. So that might have been where I watched it. But it's not something that stuck with me. Like I loved Star Wars as a kid. I loved Labyrinth, which was kind of like the Lucas movie before this. But, yeah, Willow just didn't stick with me. I was just like, man, this is just like, even at that age,

I saw it and thought, this is just kind of like Star Wars, but not as good and not as interesting and in more of like a muddy fantasy world as opposed to cool spaceship world. Yeah, it didn't really stick with me. Yeah, for everything except the not as interesting, I think it's, I mean, I don't know what it was, but I think it just came at the right time for me. and I know it's mostly it got mostly like negative to bad reviews and I never really understood that

because I think it's just a really fun movie. I was going to say the important distinction is that Willow is muddy and Star Wars as Sandy. That's the real distinction between both universes. Which, you know, one of those is very irritating and rough and gets everywhere, but we'll allow it. Yeah, I think to really kind of understand my disinterest in Willow, you have to understand that there were a lot

of fantasy movies in the 80s that kind of had this overall feel. Things like legend and crawl and I don't know. It was just like this kind of sort of grimy-looking, blue-screened fantasy that just didn't quite gel right. It was a pretty common thing in the 80s. And I would see these on like, you know, VHS tapes or when I was at a friend's and they had cable TV. And they always just kind of, they just didn't feel that engaging, that engrossing. But I went back and rewatched Willow, actually, in preparation for this podcast. And honestly, my feelings didn't really change about it. But I do, I do like the sequel series, even though it has some issues.

Like, do we really need Beyonce references? It's okay. But for the most part, I think it's pretty decent. That's interesting, because a lot of people, like, our age are kind of the opposite. Like, they like the movie and they're not so hot on the new TV show. It is a different tone in some ways They're not a different

They let girls talk and be important characters I don't know about that What's up with this wokeness? That's not happening in the Willow movie You had a feeling that Chris would be The Willow film defender at least Because I was six when this movie came out I could have been taken to it

I don't think I was And then it was an HBO movie It was on TV and I'm sure I remember certain scenes But when you're little in a movie Is this episodic you can't really stitch together the plot in your head. It just seems like a bunch of random events. So I didn't really sit down to watch it until, I'm 40 now. So this is the first time I've watched it since maybe like

1988, 1989. There are some aspects of this I appreciate, but as the kids say, I found it very mid. It's a very mid movie from my perspective. I can see why people like it. And if you like it, that's fine. It's okay to like a movie, especially if you fell in love with this movie when you were smaller. Maybe if I sat down to watch it when I was nine or ten, the whole thing through when I had more of an attention span, I might have more affinity to it. But yeah, I found the movie a little underwhelming, but I don't understand the hatred for it. And, you know, I played the NES game a bit and didn't think about it again until now. And I realized there's more Willow stuff than I had assumed.

Still not that much, but there's more than I had assumed. Well, yeah, you had some games. It had a crappy toy line. It had some sequel books a few years. later. But yeah, there's not that much out there, which makes it really easy to be a Willow collector if you're into that sort of thing. Yes. I want a sidebar about the Chris Claremont books at some point in this podcast, because I've been looking into those and it's pretty wild, folks, if you don't know about these, pretty, pretty wild. But I want to move on

to set the stage for what's happening when this movie came out. So Willow hits theaters in the late 80s, things could be a lot better for George Lucas. He closed out the Star Wars trilogy in 1983. They're all very big hits. And then comes a decade of mostly high profile failures. Failures because you're George Lucas

and you just made Star Wars. Well, Howard the Duck is a true failure. But also there's movies like Labyrinth and this that basically don't make a ton of money, but when you have the Lucas name attached, you expect a lot more. And that's why they are

You know, not looked upon fondly by Lucas. Yeah, I mean, I guess Labyrinth was a failure if you're looking at it just in terms of finances. But in terms of like giving young generation Xers sexual awakenings, it hit everyone across the spectrum. Straight boys, straight girls, gay boys, gay girls. It was just everyone saw Jennifer Connolly and David Bowie up there and were like, I'm into that. Yeah, it was funny because I think Labyrinth got a lot. lot more mindshare than it got money because growing up I felt like everybody had seen labyrinth and then much later in life I found out it's not really a hit it wasn't a hit

movie and was actually kind of disliked by critics so yeah a very weird disparity there and there's also other Lucas failures that I totally forgot about we have Tucker the man in his dream I think it's about the making of the the Edsel the car and it flops even harder than Howard the Duck but it made it's a less obvious disaster because you know it didn't cost as much as Howard the Duck, and Howard the Duck is about a walking-talking duck. So people point at that and laugh, but they're not looking at Tucker

because it's probably a very competent movie that just didn't excite people at the time. You also had those two made-for-TV, E-Wox movies, Caravan of Courage and whichever else we're... Like, to me, those are the direct antecedents to Willow. Like, they just have the same sort of vibe and the same sort of, like, kind of cheap blue-screen effects

and kind of like, hey, there wasn't that much of a budget here. So we're going to have a lot of really, like, rustic-looking buildings and a lot of mud. And sorceress. He's a actor, too. Oh, yeah, yeah, right. That's right. I was going to say, there's even a witch in at least one of those EWalk movies. But it's not, I mean, I'm sure he's still making money off of Star Wars merchandise and VHS releases,

but people are expecting a lot of Lucas after Star Wars, and he's really not delivering in terms of, of box office returns in terms of, you know, amount of people seeing his movies. Other things in the 80s, we have... Actually, if I can interject, Chris can probably vouch for me on this. Having lived through the 80s as, you know, coming off a Star Wars fandom,

there wasn't actually that much Star Wars merchandise. There wasn't really anything Star Wars for probably like a five or six year period from about 1985 to 91 when the novels came out from Del Rey, I think. The Dark Times. There's a Facebook group called The Dark Times. It's all about them. It's like, yeah, there was like, there was the West End role playing game. And that was almost it. You just didn't see Star Wars. It was like it vanished from the pop culture consciences, which is just like it's impossible to imagine that these days. But there really was a period where that was not generating revenue for Lucas aside from like VHS tapes, I think. But, but yeah. You're really right about that. He was in a really rough period, I think. I did want to bring this up because I'm an elder millennial, and I think we're in a very specific set of circumstances in which we were the only generation allowed to not grow up with Star Wars.

So when I was growing up, I saw Spaceballs first, and that was my favorite sci-fi movie. And then when I saw Star Wars, like, on TV, I thought it was boring. I was like, where are the jokes? And then we had Willow instead of Lord of the Rings movie. So we had a very weird upbringing in terms of capitalism. failing us by not selling us the most popular things at all times at every opportunity, you know. I guess you had Batman at least. You had, you had superhero movies. We had Superman and that was pretty much it. We, I guess we just, we just had Batman and that was kind of it. Unless you

want to count like Dick Tracy. I mean, he's never been hotter, Jeremy. There's been a new special on TV with Warren Beatty. It's amazing. It's an amazing act of copyright retention. But more more things happening in the 80s for Lucas. So we have Lucasfilm games beginning in 82. uh just an experimental group the the motto for them is or mission statement rather is don't lose money uh but unfortunately at a certain point lucas needs it to make money so this is spun off into a separate corporation in 1990 and that's when the culture at the studio really changes people there at the time said it changed for the worst and that that that's what i heard by by interviewing folks who had worked there at the time and then we have some personal problems in lucas's life

that eventually lead the financial problems so uh 1983 brings about the end of Star Wars and also the end of Lucas's marriage, and apparently he lost a lot of money because of certain ways divorce his work in California, I'm assuming. And he needs one big hit to start this money factory running again, and it's not hard to see him seeing Willow as this next big possible franchise for him. But then when Willow fails and Tucker fails, he's like, all right, Indiana Jones, we're just doing Indiana Jones again. And that's kind of what gets him back into thinking about Star Wars again as well.

I just need to return to these things that I used to make money off of. I think he would have gotten to Star Wars again eventually. Like that was supposedly always in his plan. But yeah, you're right. It was several dark years for Lucas until Last Crusade, really. And yeah, that kind of turned things around again. And of course, that started leading into special editions, even years later than that. Yeah, but what did Lucas do after Last Crusade?

He was kind of quiet for a long time until the season. special news. Radio Land Murders. Okay. Yeah. The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles. Yeah, there was that. And now actually, Indiana Jones is actually as old as he was in the bookends of those Chronicles, TV shows. But he still doesn't have an eye patch.

I don't know. I'm confused. Where's the continuity? He was helping steer the Willow literary universe, Jeremy. That's what he was busy doing. That's true. And also filming in Chris Claremont in his obsession with bondage and domination. And he also had to film. those bumpers on the Star Wars trilogy re-releases in the late or mid-90s

those VHS boxes talking about all of his ideas with Leonard Malton yes he was part of that too you so where did willow begin well like reportedly this is what he always says like well i've had these ideas for a very long time i'm just waiting for the technology to catch up so that was his excuse for this movie as well and he said that uh this this was in his head as early as 1972 uh he wanted

to call it munchkins originally thank god i mean when you look at the the nelwyn village uh in you know the age of george lucas you're probably thinking he had to have wizard of oz in his head at some point while dreaming this up. So, you know, that's probably why it was called Munchkins, or at least that's what he wanted to call it. He kicked this around in his head, and about 10 years later, he's making Return of the Jedi, and Warwick Davis is playing, I believe, the creature's name is Wicked. Wicked W. W. Witt. W. W. What's that? I think we both said at the same time. Wicked W. You did. If you want to get really specific on his name. Okay, wow. So I guess Warwick's name is part of it. Interesting. And this is when he sees this young little person.

an actor or anything. So I've got the role you were born to play, which is why that in the movie Willow, Warwick Davis is essentially a child actor. He's 17 in this movie, and his kids are seven and ten. So I didn't really, I wouldn't have known that unless you had told me. He looks young, but I didn't think he was actually a child on the brink of becoming an, you know, a legal adult, but still. Yeah, he does a good job of playing a father, even though he's quite a long way from being that in real life. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's weird to think that when Princess Leia was giving him beef jerky or whatever, he was like 11 or 12 years old. I mean, he's inside a suit, so you have no idea. But I always thought Warwick Davis or Warwick Davis was older than he actually

is, just because, you know, I saw him in this and thought, oh, he must be, you know, like 25 or something. But evidently not. You actually had it right the first time, Jeremy. You don't pronounce the W. It's Warwick. Oh, okay. Oh, it's a British name, huh? Yeah, it's a British name. Like, like, like, okay, I wasn't sure about that. Yeah, yeah, that's why in the new series, he is, he is a very youthful looking, I don't know, I guess, 52, 51, however young he is.

And I wouldn't have known unless I had just, you know, gone to Wikipedia to see what his age was. So whenever I do retrospectives, I always like to see, like, what research has come before me, what recent oral histories have been written? Like, who is interviewing the actors? And for my own research, I could not find any big retrospect. No one is like, Willow, 30 years later, where are they now? Or like, you know, even with the launch of a new streaming series, there were no big articles about, like, looking back upon Willow. And I think Lucas is not really keen on talking about Willow because he now seems very upset with

what Disney is doing with everything he sold them. So there's really no on the record retrospectives about this movie. And I find that very odd, but also it makes sense if you think about it for more than a minute. there's some pretty good uh if you go back to for some reason i think the DVD has a better commentary than the blue ray that came out like a decade after it uh so there's stuff but yeah there isn't much just like people covering willow which is again like kind of why we started our podcast is like we know there are people interested but uh they're not coming forward so we did is Lucas really upset about the current direction of Disney with his properties or just indifferent

I kind of get the impression he's like, whatever. Well, he compared them to white slavers in an interview, so I think he's a little upset. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Didn't realize he tried it up. He did have his own outline for 7 through 9 that is really nothing like what happened. Well, it would have been nice if there had been an outline for 7 through 9 that we actually got.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure he's enjoying his vast amounts of wealth, but also I don't know if he would approve of tampering in the Willowverse as Disney is doing, Although I'm going to assume Disney is making a better version of Willow than whatever existed in those books that I can't wait to talk about what's happening in those books. Yeah, they're pretty wild. So let's talk about Ron Howard. We all know him. He's the narrator of Arrested Development.

He's an Oscar-winning director. He's Opie. He's Opie, too. I guess certain generations know him as Opie. Or perhaps, whatever, Richie Cunningham, right, on Happy Days as well, yeah. Or the narrator in Arrested Development. Yes, that's where a lot of people, my generation, know him from the best. And then he becomes a character in a move I don't really like in that series.

But moving on, his career is taking off in the late 80s, early, sorry, late 70s, early 80s, directing for people like Corrman at first, and then taking off making the movie Splash, which is a huge hit. Very, very overly told trivia, but this is why Splash Mountain is called Splash Mountain because of the movie Splash. It was that big. Kekoon, another big hit, a very spanish. multi-movie. These are made with fairly small budgets and incredible hits. And he is doing post-production on cocoon with Industrial Light and Magic. And this is when he's approached to direct Willow by George Lucas. And they had an existing relationship because Lucas directed Ron Howard in American Graffiti. So it's all one big happy family between Lucas and Ron Howard. And I don't know what

our thoughts are about him as a director, but he would eventually end up directing solo about 30 years later. So he eventually gets to do a Star Wars movie. But until then, he basically directed what could have been the fantasy version of Star Wars in the late 80s. Yeah, I don't know that you could really call solo his movie. It was kind of like he is a competent, capable director who can get things out on time and under budget. And Disney, after the disaster that was solo originally, by all accounts, they were just like, please get this out the door for us. So it's not like he's ever really been given the chance to guide a Star Wars project from the start. I don't know if that would be good or bad if he actually did.

But yeah, I kind of feel like he deserves a little better than to play pickup with a deeply misguided project like that. The poor guy. Yes, he got Star Wars leftovers. Also, I'm not sure if those latter Star Wars movies were allowed to have any sort of directorial style or signature, but I also don't know if Ron Howard has one. now he is a very competent director but I feel like he is very like workman like I guess

he did win an Oscar sure but I don't I can't sit down and watch a movie and think that now that's a Ron Howard movie in terms of how it looks yeah the source material he chooses yeah I would say I was just watching like there's usually an element of fun behind his movies

but yeah he is just kind of like a solid director in my eyes yeah I just watched the hunt for a road October for the first time in like god 25 30 years and immediately I was like oh my god this is the guy who directed diehard I never realized before but this is this is such a follow up to die hard like John McTiernan has a style whereas Ron Howard definitely like there's nothing I can look at and say yeah you're right Bob like there's there's just nothing that is a

trademark for him it's just he gets stuff done he's uh I've heard him called a journeyman director. Yeah, that's better than workman-like, I think. And, yeah, I'm sure when you do a Ron Howard movie, everyone gets along. He's very helpful and nice. There's been no behind the scenes, horror stories about him, or production hell stories about his movies, as far as I know. He just feels like he is just your regular steady Eddie director, and people know to turn to him to rescue a movie in the case of Solo, especially. I feel like he is to Star Wars, what Jonathan Frakes is to Star Trek.

like the dude who just gets it done, no frills, no complications, two takes freaks, just get it out the door. I don't know if there's anything that clever to make out of Ron Howard's name, though. I don't think so. Get it done, Ron? No, no, it doesn't work. Chris. Yeah, in general, Ron Howard, I have a positive outlook, but not like an outstanding outlook.

But I was going to say, too, his daughter is very successful as well, Bryce Dallas Howard. She has directed episodes of the Landolorean and, you know, she stars in the Jurassic movies and all that. So, you know, there's still some legacy to the Howard name also. Right. We won't blame her for Jurassic World. She's a fine director. Yeah, her place in the Jurassic series is kind of, kind of reflective of sort of how the female lead, I guess you could say, and Willow gets treated. It's like just generational, just hand it on.

down. I think there's trying to say more about women in the Jurassic World movies that Willow doesn't even care to raise the subject. Just like, oh, she's still here? Fair enough. Sure, here's a few lines. Now, who's writing this movie? A guy named Bob Dolman, Lucas hires him to work his many fantasy ideas into a coherent

screenplay. And Dolman worked with Lucas on a pilot for a Gooney-style TV show before the Goonies even happened. They're completely unrelated, but that's the best way to describe what this thing was. It was called Little Shots. It didn't go to series, but this pilot became a TV movie. So I guess that's another failure for Lucas, but he gets Dolman out of this project. And at the time, Dolman was mainly known as a writer for SCTV.

So maybe if you don't like Willow, maybe that can explain why this movie has some issues because a sketch comedy writer is writing this fantasy epic. Now, he could have been, you know, a sketch comedy writer can write a lot of things. I mean, Jordan Peel makes a lot of great horror movies. But this could indicate why maybe it could have been a better movie. It does explain things like some of the jokes, I guess, that sometimes land and sometimes don't. Yeah, and in general, though, I think Willow, in this definitely extends to the TV show, is not a standard fantasy in that it does have some, like, modern elements. And, you know, maybe that was intentional.

Maybe it wasn't early on. But it's definitely intentional now. But, yeah, that I didn't know. know that, that he was an SCTV writer. That's interesting. Yeah, and he also, he came back for the TV show. He's got a very strange career because he didn't, he didn't really do a lot. He wrote and directed the Banger Sisters, which is this early aughts comedy with Susan

Sarandon, I think, Goldie Hawn. And that's the one movie he directed, I believe. And then he wrote the movie version of How to Eat Fried Worms. So he's had an odd and varied career, but he's still around. He worked on the new Willow series. and a very cromulent soundtrack on Willow by James Horner. I do like the music, even though a lot of it is very derivative and very Williamsy. It feels like, I mean, James Horner has done great work,

but this feels like the We Have John Williams at Home composer for this movie, because the Willow theme is just like, it feels a few notes off from the Indiana Jones theme in a way that does not feel like an accident to me. Interesting. Yeah, I've always just really loved the theme. I know the movie by heart so well. It's in my head like anything, Williams, really. It'll just pop in there.

And it was used on a ton of movie trailers after Willow came out. I think Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves, stuff in that era. Yeah, it did sound familiar to me upon rewatching it. So I'm sure I saw it pop up in trailers. But yes, James Horner RIP, fine work on this, although I feel like they wanted a big, strong theme, just like Star Wars had. And they didn't really find it. It just feels a little too similar to things that had come before.

for it. So this is definitely a big budget movie and it's an effects movie, lots of practical effects, optical effects. That unfortunately gave us a lot more of the brownies in this movie, stop motion animation, and also very early CGI. And I believe the first, the debut of the morphing technology, which would later be showcased in the Michael Jackson black or white video. And there's, there's just one scene of Willow transforming the sorceress, where I forget her name. Is it Braziel? Rizel? What's it again, Chris?

Finn Razel. Finn Razel. It's spelled just like Raziel from the legacy of Cain. Okay, that's why I was struggling with how to pronounce it. It's Willow turning her into a bunch of different animals and they're all kind of morphing in a very now cheap looking way you can do with your own PC. But hey,

it was the first time that technology was you. It was really impressive back then. It really was. Yeah. And I had to think because of when this came out, people at ILM were either working on this or who frame Roger Rabbit and I wonder how the people who worked on this felt about their Roger Rabbit pals

getting to do kind of the cooler movie There's maybe some crossover here and there But yeah, yeah, it was That's an interesting point They're both great to me I love that summer of 88 They're really pushing optical effects As far as they will go with this movie

Because when the brownies When the very small human beings are on screen they're doing more with that technology than it had ever been done before. They're on top of moving things on the screen. They're affecting things in the world in the same scene. But it has the same issue as Roger Abbott does in that if you look close enough, they're the tiniest bit transparent. You can kind of see the film behind them.

And that was just a flaw in the process, but they're doing the most they can with the technology at the time before everything just becomes CGI. They'll fix that in the will of special editions. The biggest issue I have with that kind of optical effect is that you can just tell that they don't belong in the world because the visual contrast isn't the same. Like something is always more washed out than another thing on the screen. So even when I was a kid, like I would see that. And, you know, even in movies that do kind of, you know,

kind of were groundbreaking for use of that like Star Wars or something, you can just always tell, like something just doesn't really belong here. So to me, the use of all that technology really took me out of there, took me out of the moment. Yeah, I didn't really see the bad blue screening as a kid. I definitely do now. I did see it, though, when they would, like, they did, like, interviews with Kevin Polack as a brownie back then, and, you know, they put him in a dollhouse or whatever in the background and that sort of thing. So, Chris, you're saying they fixed the transparency issue on some of the effects with later addition. Or is that just a joke? That was a joke.

Okay. Because I can see Lucas actually... I could see Lucas actually wanting to fix that, even with a movie he doesn't want to think about anymore. And honestly, it's not that distracting. But there's something about that that I find incredibly charming because no effect will look like that again. And something about me appreciates the artifice of seeing the effect and knowing how they did it. Just you can sense the man hours that I went into it and the craft that's not as obvious. as CGI, but this is an old man speaking.

These are old man thoughts. I'm sure people don't want to see the strings anymore, and that's fine. But there's a little bit of charm to when effects were still like this, when they required a little more grunt work from people, I think. Yeah, and I think that might extend actually to the show a little bit now, too, because it has decent special. It has really good TV special effects, but they don't approach good movie special effects.

So it's kind of in its time in that respect as well. Okay, so same level of effects in both productions, I guess, in terms of what the standard is now. So let's talk about in terms of what it made. So this movie had a $35 million budget. It brought in $57 million in America, in Canada, which is not great. It opened a number one, which is good. But this movie found a bigger audience elsewhere in the world. And apparently this was at the time MGM's most popular release in Japan.

That probably has been eclipsed by now. But worldwide, Willow brought in $137 million total. which is a fine sum I mean that's more than triple the budget but still this is not what they wanted from this burgeoning would-be franchise and also looking back at the time

critics like you said up front Chris they largely panned Willow Siskel and Ebert gave this two thumbs down they had a very they have a very fun review you can watch online from the time Ebert is just complaining about the projection quality in his theater which is not very productive or helpful

but Siskel No, sorry, I'm thinking of their Mortal Kombat review. I apologize. I just watched that for another podcast, but they both didn't like it. And Ebert especially hated all the reaction shots of the baby, which really bothered me upon my old man viewing recently. It's a little too much. It's a little too cutesy, and they do it so often.

And, you know, that is a very expressive baby. I understand the impulse to make that baby, like, laugh and cry and scowl and look quizzical at things. But they push it a little too far. there were things with that baby like when the baby throws up that was not in the script the baby threw up on burgle cut and they ran with it and it's one of the better laughs in the movie I think is that so they had to have a bird poop on later to like book mark bookend the uh bird poop was probably the comedy did they did they talk about the ibor sisk at all in their review out of curiosity i don't think they knew it was called that but this movie has a real

bone to pick with critics because the ibor sisk is the two-headed monster and also we have General Kale, named after Pauline Kale, the film critic, who, I mean, not every critic like Star Wars, but she was notable in her hatred of Star Wars. So they really, this movie is about slandering critics and telling a fantasy epic story. Yeah, I didn't realize that until several years after the fact on both of those. The Ebor Sisk is the dragon, by the way, you don't know. Right, right. And yeah, that continues into the show now. There is a troll named Saris who forgive me I forget the critic

named Saris's first name but he's a prominent critic as well and they named a bad guy after him oh nice the continuing the tradition of being petty about criticism I'm really bummed that there was never a video game character named after me by someone who's game I panned

I feel like that's true immortality right there I think Jeremy it's a great bad guy name because it's Parrish but spelled differently that's a great yeah so much So many layers. I want to say, Jeremy, if the Lego Dimension series continued, I think you would be the villain of that.

If I remember my history correctly. Yeah. That billionaire got really upset that I didn't like his game. Are there any other production things you want to talk about? I mean, even though I watched this movie twice, and I think it's seriously flawed, the production design is very good. Outside of, you know, the dogs with carpet sample staple to them in the beginning,

I think that was just a very weird effect that didn't really carry over very well. But I think the production design on the whole is very, very well done. And I think that's one. The one thing I really took away from the movie is that it's very pretty and it's shot well. Yeah, you know, I just in general, I don't know if it's production related, but just in terms of maybe better explaining why I liked it so much. Like if you just like take a step back and look at all the set pieces, like you've got like this runaway cart scene, which is, you know, very much a been her reference probably. you've got a big sled scene down a mountain on a shield you've got fights in two different castles

one of them cursed one of them like a hub of evil it's like i think just these general settings and and action sequences and that sort of thing also like really resonated with me as a 12 year old you know it was just cool to me yeah i think isolated these individual set pieces did really work for me And we'll talk more about our thoughts about the movie later, but, you know, the downhill, like, sled race on the shield, the Ben-Hur, you know, horse carts escape, the battle in tear, Slein, who's very cool. I think in isolation I did really enjoy those.

And I feel like the middle of the movie is where I kind of get lost. I think it has a strong start and a strong finish, but the middle is just very middling. But we could talk more about our thoughts about the movie after we talk about the cast. So this cast is very, very big and very, very British. because it's mostly filmed in the UK. So a lot of the cast was mostly in British things

that you've never heard of and I've never heard of so I don't want to belabor the point and go over everything. It was largely in New Zealand too, by the way. They did it before Lord of the Rings. Oh, New Zealand too. Okay, that doesn't make sense. New Zealand and Wales were the primary places of filming for this, yeah. But a lot of very British actors.

Let's start with Warwick Davis. He's Willow. He's 17. He's barely older than his children in the movie. But I will credit the movie for giving the titular character, making the titular character into a little person and there are not like little person gags. I feel like this movie treats little people with dignity.

Although it's a very disturbing world in which everyone is slinging around the peaceler. Everyone's saying the worst thing you can say to these people, including characters we should like. So I feel like, boy, they get it a lot in this movie. But I feel like it is a dignified role for a little person which they weren't even getting

at this point in time and they still don't really get. Yeah, something else that may be a little disturbing. I don't know if that's the word. but I didn't realize it until my podcasting partner called me out on it. You know, I said, like, so the Dikinis are the humans of this world. But if you put it in that way, it's like saying that a little person is not a human. So I don't know. It's not really that cut and dry.

You know, like the Nelwyn are an entire race of still humans, obviously. It's just something I never really thought about until I got called out on it. Well, I think it's also the kind of meant to be. sort of, you know, like they would be the equivalence to hobbits, which in Lord of the Rings actually are a different race than humans. So I definitely see what your podcast partner is saying, but that is kind of how this film positions them. It's not like this is, you know, a village where a bunch of humans who happen to be of small stature live. Like this is a different race within this world. So I, you know, I can understand that.

yeah i sort of say say the nel ones are they're mostly hobbitish but there's a little bit of dwarf there too because they are very uh you know they have mines and and they're they have an army of sorts they have warriors uh which is not very hobbit like so you know that yeah and not nearly as many meals oh yes yes yeah that's true no second breakfasts yeah i i think like the lore is not told very well in this movie because i wasn't sure if the nelwin um the little people were a distinct race or if dikini was just the word they used to refer to people who did not have dwarfism or whatever i wasn't sure if what was going on there because i guess when i was reading about it i just heard oh dikini was their word for like larger people and maybe that's just not

a distinct race of people but again there's a lot going on there's a lot that's not told very well and it's interesting how they make up their own words for things but then they just say oh uh yeah troll and there's a few other ones where they just fall back on the old fantasy world it's like No, if you're going to make up a new word for things we already know about, you have to make up a new word for everything, guys. Yeah, I think it's cool they have trolls, but they aren't, like, the traditional trolls that you think of, and they have a dragon that doesn't really look like other dragons, and, you know, they have these fantasy standards, I guess you could call them, but they definitely have their own kind of spin to them. That is true.

The trolls are like sleastacks, a thing I vaguely know about from Land of the Lost. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah, I guess so. bit like that with a little bit of Spider-Man in there too maybe I'm wrong about that but I have a vague idea of what that looks like oh Jeremy I think it's I think it's kind of charming that the word

dikini reminds you of the fact that George Lucas really likes to throw in random bits of Japanese into his fantasy stories even though it doesn't necessarily really fit and doesn't kind of combine you know you have Obi-Wan Kenobi it's like

hey here is Juan is San so here is Mr. Kimono belt and Dai is Japanese for large so you just basically like here's the big people but it's Japanese so you didn't know that

nobody knows how to speak that language even a dash of like Chinese and Mongolian in this movie if you look at like Sorcia's armor it's very much that style but moving on with Warwick Davis we talked about you know

a dignified role for a little person a hero role well he wouldn't get those for much longer because he is the star of six of eight leprechaun movies which I'm sure was very good for him but when you go from being the lead of a fantasy epic to an evil goblin who pogoes people to death it's a different kind of move for you

I'm sure he appreciated the work but it was not the same level of status that Willow would give him he started with Jennifer Aniston what are you talking about? Yes he tormented that poor woman but yeah he did not have the career I assumed he would have had

He seems happy and healthy, but the brunt of his career is just these leprechaun films, which I think they entertain people, but I assume he would like to be doing other things. So I'm happy. He's also, he's been in all the Star Wars movies in some way. He's in Harry Potter. He's got some Ricky Jervais stuff that's actually like really funny. Life is short. And I think there's another show too.

So, you know, he's done other things. But yeah, there's nothing like super breakout by any means. I'm sure he's just happy when he isn't to put on a giant costume or a ton of makeup to become some horrible little goblin. But that's Warwick Davis. We salute him. He's a great guy. And again, just a child. So Val Kilmer, not Han Solo, but this movie's version of him, which is Mad Mardigan, who feels to me like more of a scoundrel than Han Solo. But Val Kilmer exiting the world of spoof comedies with Top Gun. So very hot off a Top Gun. And thankfully, after a battle with throat cancer, he's still hanging in there. Everyone can remember his very heartbreaking scene in Top Gun Maverick

But Willow is just four movies into a very long career for him So he's still like a fresh-faced new actor in this film Yeah and even in the new show he's not in it but his son plays his voice Yeah I thought that was interesting Yeah I did not know that I agree that he seems more scoundrel-ish although that kind of in the course of like 40 minutes of screen time just sort of evaporates and everyone forgets about it. But this is a guy who would definitely shoot Grito under the table.

And we absolutely know Han Solo would never have done that. Absolutely not. Ignore anyone who says otherwise, it's a lie. Yeah, this guy. He hasn't for longer than he did at this point. Yeah. Wow. I mean, it's also, it's very odd that Val Kilmer spends, I would say, most of his screen time in this movie in a dress, at least like 40% of it.

And also, we'll talk about the story, but it's very funny that when Mad Martin loses the baby, he's like, well, time to go Horan. He just completely forgets about it. And this is our hero, ladies and gentlemen. Well, he's redeemed, but it's still very funny. Moving on, Joanne Wally as Sorsha. After doing research, I found out she was mostly in British films and TV shows, but she did marry Val Kilmer after this. This is where they met and fell in love. So they had two kids together.

I wish she was playing a better character because apparently she's. a much better actress than the role she is given in this film. She deserves a better role, but she's fine in this. Yeah, are you referring when you say she deserves a better role, just the fact that she basically just kind of goes from bad to good because she thought he's hot or something. Yeah. Yeah, and how it's all contrived via love potion, I felt, yeah, it's a bit odd.

I absolutely agree. If it makes you feel any better, at all. There is a subplot that was completely cut from the movie where it turns out her father was the king of Tirizlien and he was a very good king who was manipulated by Bev Morda and he's one of the people you see, you know, frozen and then you actually see him very quickly at the end of the movie. So like in the novelization and stuff they talk about her father and all that and so like that has a role in it too in her turn. Yeah, that would have explained a lot more.

Because currently in the movie, I mean, I watched it again because I wasn't sure was I missing something. But no, her main dilemma in the movie seems to be, well, General Kale is given the more important role. And I want to, you know, I'm going to be a climber in this world of empire. And then it suddenly turns into, well, now I'm in love for some reason. And that's my new thing. So she's underserved by this role, and I don't know if the, is she in the new series at all? Or is anything about her character in the new series? Okay, cool.

She's in the first episode and the last episode, I think. Yeah, and she refreshes her role. She shows up throughout, actually, in small bits. But she plays a pretty significant role in the plot. That's good. That's one of the things I think I heard about the series in that this character is finally given better material and is made into a real person. Yeah, she rules. She's the queen of Fier's Lean, because I guess

they don't tell you that in the show. This is all extra stuff I know from just doing research. Now, I want to talk about some other people here, people that I don't like their presence in this movie, but it's not their fault. Kevin Pollock, as rule, I met Kevin Pollock. I went to a Simpsons Table Read,

and he was for some reason there in doing voices there. So I met one of the men. and had I only known that he was rule I could have I don't know what I would have done but I would have been escorted out of that room step on him Yes yes no he's actually

He's not he's not a small as rule He's kind of a small man in person Well so am I so it's fair My thought about this was I don't know who made these choices I mean Kevin Pollock Rick Overton These two guys They

Kevin Paul's a stand up I'm sure they did a lot of improv I'm sure Ron Howard's like What do these brownies sound like What do you think And they start doing these outrageous accents. And Ron's like, that's funny. That is funny.

Let's go with it. And I didn't think they realized how grading that would be throughout an entire movie. I don't know who made the choices. This really signals to me what George Lucas's sense of humor is like and how it is dated, like dated even for the 80s. And we can see that play out with Jar Jar Jar and the future. But it's interesting to see how in Star Wars the comic relief, for the most part, goes down smooth. and here, it's not quite as smooth.

Rule and Frangine actually remind me a lot of some of the minor side characters from Labyrinth, but I think those Labyrinth characters work where the brownies don't because the whole world of Labyrinth is supposed to be really sort of off-putting and kind of fundamentally hostile to the main character, Sarah. Like, it's supposed to be disorienting and annoying and everything is just kind of out there to antagonize her. So when you have characters with these outrageous accents, it kind of works.

Whereas here, it's meant to be more straight-faced, and they're meant to be allies who are helpful. And you just want to say, no, guys, I need you to go hide inside a tree or something and just never come back. Yeah, I will say as someone who saw the movie in a theater in 1988, they went over extremely well.

like the audience burst out into laughter especially at the line your mother was a lizard which is a yo mama joke if you think about it so of its time you know it actually i think it actually worked i get the criticism now i don't find them as funny as i did when i was 12 for sure but yeah i mean i don't think they're for me as the viewer as the older viewer watching i know i know kids for instance they love jar jar they think jar is funny and that's who he was made for But when I saw this again as a much older person, I thought, okay, they're going to be out of this brownie place and they'll be going to be leaving these guys behind and we're done with the brownies and then know the brownies follow them and keep popping up. And I feel like it just shows a lack of confidence in the storytelling that we, the brownies are kind of the dangling keys in front of your face to keep you awake where they have some fun pratfalls. One thing they do, which I think is one of my biggest pet peeves in any sort of screenwriting or like teleplay writing or anything is when characters look at each other and go. So, uh-oh, and they do that in this movie. And I feel like that should have been taken out. That's just my own pet peeve. But very interesting choices made with these characters.

And frankly, I don't understand. But like you said, Chris, they entertain children then. They probably entertain children today. But I feel like this does indicate the things that George Lucas finds funny are kind of like vaudevillian almost. Because we have the brownies. We have basically Val Kilmer becoming pepe. Lepew. It's all just this very, very broad, super broad comedy. And, you know, in the future, Jar Jar is Buster Keaton. He's going back to the 30s in terms of his comedic sensibilities,

the 30s and earlier. So it just, in some ways, that can be charming, if it's done correctly, sometimes he just doesn't do it right. And are there any other actors of note? Again, if you watch this movie, especially in the beginning, a lot of the little people actors will look familiar to you because they got around a lot in the 90s. And I'm sure this was a great payday for a ton of little people actors of the era, one that didn't come along very often. Other actors of note, it's interesting

that a guy named Patrick Roach played General Kale because I think a lot of people know him better, maybe even as the big Nazi who gets splattered by the propeller in Raiders of Lost Ark. Oh, okay. You know, he's not exactly

a major household name or anything, but I think that's kind of fun. I think it's also worth mentioning for Joanne Wally, she was recently on Daredevil as Sister Maggie, who I won't spoil who that actually is, but it's an important character there. And she was in a movie without Kilmer, too, called Kill Me Again. Never saw it. But, you know, that she did other things. Yeah, the other actors, I feel bad I just don't know who they are, especially, is it Finn Rizel? Lynn Rizel? Yes.

There we go. She was 80, and God bless this 80-year-old woman who was willing to just be naked in a scene with Willow, doing a great job in battling in the rain and things like that. And apparently the Bav Morda, there's another name I remembered. Bav Morda. Is she also in return to Oz, Chris, you're saying? Gene Marsh is her name. I get the impression she was big in the UK or something. But yeah, I don't know of anything else than she played some kind of queen character in return to Oz as well.

Apparently, that was a big nightmare fuel movie for Gen Xers and early millennials, but I still have not seen that movie. I haven't seen it since it was new, but it was pretty bleak. Yeah, I need to go back and revisit it. I saw it when it came out. It's a very bleak film. So, uh, the

uh, I don't know. ...you know ...and... ...you... ...and... ...the... ...the...

I wanted to have a movie discussion, but we need to talk about the games and frankly we covered a lot of the movie. There are a few things I want to mention, though, in that I'm not putting, I'm not making Chris like the constant will of defender. I just want to throw out what I want to say about the movie. In that I feel my major issue with this

is that it's like so derivative of things I'd seen before. and I guess Star Wars was as well but I just wasn't as familiar with those things it was being derivative of so yes this is derivative of Star Wars you know I guess Wizard of Oz if you want to say that the Bible and I think a big issue with me

in this movie is that the Princess Bride came out a year or maybe two years earlier than this and I feel like just a year before and I had just seen that movie for the first time last year so I'm fresh to that movie as well and I feel like oh I don't think that's

perfect movie. I'm not as in love with the Princess Pride as a lot of people, but I feel like it's doing all the fun fantasy things in a much more effective and charming way than Willow. Oh, I agree with that. Yeah, Princess Bride's a better movie. I'm not going to fight you there. I will say, you know, for one thing, Lucas always been about the hero's journey, Joseph Campbell, all that. But I think the fact that Willow is a father and like he actually has to leave his kids to go on this adventure for uh you know it just starts out to to be to get this baby set to somebody but like i think that actually adds something that it's easy to overlook like almost all these other heroes journeys like you know luke skywalk or whatever it's like a young man going to you know

save the galaxy and and you know maybe get a girl along the way or whatever uh but i think just being a father like does add a kind of a different dimension to things Yeah, he was doing, Willow did the, the sad dad adventure thing, like 20 years before video games realized, oh, we should do that. They forgot to kill his wife, though. That's what every game would do, or his daughter or something. Well, they were still, you know, this was like the rough draft. I see. Well, yes, I'm happy his family survived, the death dog attacked.

And, yeah, this, I feel like this, there are elements of I do like, like Willow being a father. And I feel like the movie has a very strong first half, or sorry, first act. A slightly weaker third act, but still fun, but I feel like it's very middling. And upon watching it again, I'm realizing that a lot of important plot information is screamed at you by the brownies or by Finrazel when she is in a squeaky animal form. And it just sounds like nonsense if you're not paying attention. But upon a second viewing, I'm like, oh, everything they're saying is important. They're not just ending up at these places by happenstance. This is important dialogue, but it's just kind of covered up by wacky screaming characters.

And that was another little flaw I saw in the second viewing. Yeah, I never really thought about that. I guess because I've always, you know, being 12 when I saw it, I've always liked these characters and, you know, considered what they had to say, I guess. Yeah, you know, Star Wars also had that with the vaudevillian characters of C3PO and R2D2, but what this movie didn't have that Star Wars had was Harrison Ford and Marsha Lucas to say, George, you got to rewrite this. People don't talk like this. This doesn't work. let's you know let's hammer this out and make it better that was you know a hugely important part of especially the original star wars uh just the the feedback and the pushback that he got on the dialogue and the direction from people involved in you know kind of the cast and also kind of on the side um just saying let's let's think this through and i don't think willow really benefited from that i don't think you know, I don't think Val Kilmer at any point did a Harrison Ford and was like, hey, George, you know, we got to really think about this and no one talks like this. It's bullshit, George. He just, you know, at that point, Lucas had stature and Val Kilmer didn't. So, yeah, I think there was kind of that, that important element of editing missing from this movie. Does anything stand out to you as like being something ridiculously stated, I guess? Nothing has stuck with me that clearly.

Definitely as I was watching it recently Like there were parts where I was just kind of like Oh, this isn't good But it wasn't so great Like extraordinarily bad So egregiously bad that I was like I gotta make a note of this This is the worst

It's just it's just like a song for me at this point I'm kind of blind to anything like that I mean there's like you're my son My moon my starlit sky But like that's when he's under like a spell Or whatever so I can forgive that You know Yeah, sorry.

I really don't have specific criticisms. It's just like a general vibe that I get from it. I see. Yeah, I think the most lucasy things in terms of the words that are set on the screen to me are the character names. And it's hard to tell or hard to explain how a fantasy name is stupid and how it is not stupid. Because a lot of these do feel kind of dumb to me. But I can't articulate why. They just don't feel like they flow off the tongue very well.

I think, I think Sorsha is just, it sounds too close to like sorcerer or sorcerer. Margin. I thought it was a description of a man named Mardigan, but it turns out to be his entire name. Not alone there. It's very common. Yeah. Willow, his last name is Uffgood, which is also, it just, I feel like I'm thinking there were a lot of first drafts for Star Wars names that eventually got fixed, and I don't think this got a second draft of names. But I do like the actual name Willow. Okay. I mean, I think you go to Star Wars. Like, no one ever talks about how, what a bad name Grito is, actually. actually, Grito, the Greedy Bounty Hunter. Yes.

Hey, it's a different culture, man. He's from another, he's from another species. That's unfair judgment, man. Yeah, I think a lot of it is just like, you know, you hear the name and you're really into the movie or the franchise or whatnot and you get used to it, I guess. Like, I think most people thought Grogu was a stupid name when we heard it first, but now he's just Brogu, right? No, it's still stupid.

I mean, you've got Han Solo, like literally, it's Lonely John. That's who he is. Lucas isn't really much for the solity and the naming. Luke Skywalker, I mean, come on. Yeah, I guess it's the lack of familiarity with these names. I take it for granted that, yeah, there's a guy named Han Solo. There's Luke Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi. They all should be ridiculous, R2D2.

But for some reason, these names hit me a different way. And I'm guessing it's because they aren't as familiar. I do want to talk about something I found out about upon researching this movie. Now, you know, Luke is probably very disappointed in this, didn't want to go back to it. But in the mid-90s, he went back to it, folks. And you might not be aware of this because I certainly wasn't. There are three 500-page books written by X-Men writer Chris Claremont that expand upon the Willowverse. And thankfully, the great podcast, 372 pages will never get back.

They read this book and did a series of podcasts about it. now folks the point of that podcast is they read bad books and at the time they said this was the worst book they had ever read and it sounds pretty rough and if you're coming to this series expecting oh more adventures with my friends willow and med martigan and sorsha and the rest well you'll be sorely disappointed because this is not a spoiler because it happens in the first 30 pages of the book everyone you know and love in the willow series is killed except for the brownies for the most part and also willow is now given the name a thorn So Willow is not even called Willow. Yes, Thorne Drumheller. There you go. So Willow is not even Willow anymore. And it just is a dark, dark fantasy completely removed from the fun, whimsical adventures of Willow. And people were positing that this was a book Claremont had written.

And he just wanted to get it out there. And he, you know, collaborated with Lucas to make it into a Willow thing. No, he wrote this book intending it to be a Willow follow-up. And I guess at the last minute, wrote a prologue to connect it to the movie. But, yeah, very, very odd, very, very bad. At a certain point in the book, Willow will do things you can't imagine this lovable character doing, like killing a boy. This happens in at least the first book, and there are three of them. And when I heard about this, I'm like, oh, Chris Claremont, everyone says, oh, one of the best comic writers of all time.

I guess he hasn't written very many novels because this seems wretched. The thing about Claremont in the 90s is that he had just been divorced from X-Men. So maybe he was kind of going through a rough patch. But also the really great, you know, like groundbreaking stuff that he wrote was written in collaboration with John Byrne, who has become, you know, very problematic in recent years. But in the 70s and early 80s, the two of them had a, it was like a Pink Floyd collaboration where they really elevated each other, but also they hated each other's guts. and they made each other miserable with their creative impulses, but in balance, they created really great things like the Phoenix saga and just like, you know, groundbreaking moments in comic narration.

And once Byrne left that group, that partnership and kind of struck out on its own, I really feel like X-Men kind of went downhill for quite a while throughout the 80s until it was sort of dredged back up in the late 80s. Claremont, I think he is a guy who he lets his very obvious fetishes and fixations shine through and isn't necessarily good at self-editing. So I can just imagine that, you know, if you give him 1,500 pages of novel to work with and there's no one to say, hey, Chris, let's rework this part. Yeah, I can imagine that being a very bumpy ride.

well there were editors supposedly yeah i actually read this when it was new oh really okay yeah i saw it i remember i was like in b dalton or waldon books one of those uh mall bookstores and i saw this book sitting on the shelf it said uh in the biggest letters well it said shadow moon by george lucas and chlaremont oh shit that was a willow book i remember seeing that there is nothing to indicate it's a willow book the character's I've read the book. I don't know who the characters on the book slip are. But you read the first sentence and it says something like Willow Uffgood was writing on the back of a dragon, which was, that's pretty cool.

And that hooked me in. And I was like, whoa, Willow, Willow back. Why isn't this called Willow something? But yeah, everybody dies in the first 30 pages. And it's just so dark. I mean, the movie, you know, I find it to be a very fun, lighthearted affair. everything's really dark nothing's funny the brownies

or you know say what you will of them in the movie but you know they're just boring companion characters who don't crack any jokes at all or attempt to and yeah I trudged through the first book I listened to the second one on tape

I never got around to the third but yeah it's it's bad actually yeah I was looking at this it's really out of print it might be available digitally but I think at a certain point, Chris, they added a mention of Willow on the cover. There are some covers without it, but one of the covers I'm seeing says

an all-new saga based on the movie Willow. So I think at a certain point, they needed to juice the sales of this. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know if it was just my own observation, but I feel like the 90s were a glory time for these giant fantasy books, because my stepdad

loved reading these and seemingly brought home a new giant doorstop of a fantasy book every other week. And I'm sure they still get published, but man, And there seemed to be so many of these kind of fantasy books in this era. Yeah, I mean, there's no way to have known unless you really investigated that they were Willow books. The attraction was by George Lucas and Chris Claremont. You described their, you know, the story of the books a little bit.

But it's actually kind of conflicting right now. So actually, John Kasden, the guy behind the show, he is out there saying that the books were Claremont's idea the whole time. And he just put a willow dressing on top of it. But there's like actually an interview with Claremont from like 08 or something where he's talking about how he was writing Willow books the entire time. He spent like eight hours with George Lucas getting the general idea of what these books would be. That was it. And then from then on it was him. And then he was told that he could not use Mad Mardigan or Sorsha or most of the characters.

you love. Oh, oh, oh, those specific brownies he could not use. So then he got the note back from Lucasfilm like two months before the book was to be published that, hey, we're all these characters that everybody loves. And his story is like, I was told I could not use them. So he haphazardly added that prologue, but he dies. And then he made the new brownies that he had into Rule and Frangene. So it was just a mess across the board. you know actually i i have done enough kind of creative collaboration with licensers that that is extreme i know yeah yeah that's extremely believable like no you can't do this thing absolutely not here are the limitations and then you know later on like hey why didn't you use this

thing what's going on we don't understand like that's what were you thinking there that's that's the the corporate gaslighting that we all know and love. Yeah, it wouldn't also surprise me, too, if he did have his own story you wanted to tell. And, you know, there could be truth in both of those stories. But yeah, I think so. Yeah, thanks for clarifying that, Chris, because if you don't want to reach out a moon, we don't recommend it. Even the biggest Willow fan says, don't do it. But it opens with a dream.

And in the dream, Willow is with Sorcia and Mad Margin, I believe. And one of them says, you strike me as more of a thorn under a drumheller than a Willow. And he's like, okay, that's my name now. I was told to me in a dream, and I'm calling myself that, and that's who I am. So I guess even the intention was that Thorne character was not even the willow we saw in the movie from the very beginning. Possibly. I think, yeah, I don't know. I actually don't know.

Yeah. But hey, if you want to consume this book, I don't recommend it. But I was looking for it online, and somebody had uploaded the audiobook version, and the guy who's reading it is Odo from Deep Space Nine. So, and it has like sound effects and music. I think it's the best way to absorb this story. And it's a bridge, too. So it's the best way to absorb the story if you are curious. But again, it's not really about Willow.

But only two of the three books are in that form. They didn't do the third one as an audio book. Odo would not come back. Anything else about this movie before we move on to the games? Yeah, I mean, there are some things that I like about it. Like, I like Willow himself and the arc that is laid out for him. the fact that he you know the concept of magic there is really about his intrinsic abilities and not necessarily magic but like his faith in himself and when it really comes down to it you know he saves

the day with parlor tricks and a little bit of luck and um that that feels very i don't know that that's that's more satisfying to me than like oh yes the magic was in you all along and you actually are a truly great wizard and the greatest sorcerer of all time. And one of the things I like about the follow-up series is how the resolution of the film plays into Willow's legacy and also who he truly is in a relationship to the world. I do feel like that core arc is very, very strong. I just don't really like the writing, the look of the movie, the effects, a lot of the characters. like everything around Willow is kind of bad,

but Willow himself, very, very good. Yeah, I agree. He's my favorite character, and that's why I like the beginning of this movie because it's mostly about him and what he's up to. Before we move on, though, I do want to ask Chris. Now, Chris, I watched this movie twice recently, and I still can't figure out how he defeats the villain

at the end of the movie. I'm like, well, what happened? Because he does the magic trick, and she kind of spills the sacrifice juice on herself. Can you tell me what the mechanics are there? Because I don't understand it. I watched it with a very close eye. yeah you're right it's very unclear but my understanding is like she does spill the blood that was part of this ritual that would have sent the baby into the netherworld so i guess at that action you know of spilling the blood and like putting her hand in the air or whatever they kind of combined and she was the one sent to the netherworld it's okay it's very vague it yeah you're right now

I kind of made that connection, but upon the first viewing and not going back to rewatch the scene, I was like, wait, what, what happened? Did he just scare her with that magic trick? But, okay, that makes a bit more sense. Let's talk about the games, though. It's kind of like Darth Vader's wingman getting scared, like panicking and crashing into Darth Vader and sending Darth Vader spinning off into space so that Luke Skywalker can blow up the Death Star. There's this element of like, oops, dumb luck working in the hero's favor. But, you know, as much of a contrivance as that is, it also kind of helps humanize the protagonist. Like, hey, they're not a

Superman. They are someone who's doing the right thing and they got lucky at the right time. And sometimes that's okay. I do want to move on and talk about the games, though. So there were three Willow games, and the first one was a microcomputer game that I won't talk about because it's a bunch of bad mini games. Nobody's fond of this.

Looking up videos on YouTube, every comment is like, this is getting this game was the worst moment of my life. This game ruined my Christmas. nobody is happy about this and it's of that era in which it's like why make one bad game we can make five even worse games and it's yeah some of them are just like matching games

it's a bad time this is not you don't want to play as the handmaiden escaping the castle in a game that looks like wizardry but doesn't really have any buddy to fight and you might just randomly turn a corner and die

that's not fun yes I don't I don't want to play through a Willow themed first person maze. That's not my idea of a good time. But yes, I encourage you to make your own podcast about this game because I don't want to. That's very possible that we might. Yes, I will listen to that one, Chris, because somebody has to look into this. I barely wanted to look at footage of this because the other games are so much better. So we have Willow for the NES 89. Capcom made and published this. So here we go. We are in the golden age of Capcom's licensed games. This one launches around the same time as Ducktails. My own speculation,

here is that this might have started out as a different project because Capcom was not in the habit of making big ambitious action RPGs, but again just speculation, there's nothing back set up, but it feels like it's a possibility, but maybe they just saw Willow and thought, let's make her own Zelda finally,

because they are easing into making their own RPGs towards the end of the decade and this is kind of their first one, I believe. I think you're spot on. I think that was absolutely another game that they just slapped Willow onto. A good game, a mostly good game. It's not perfect, but I think it's a pretty good game overall.

And both of these games have like the top tier Capcom staff because they were just the people making everything. Produced by Tokuro Frujiwara, the man behind early Capcom hits like Ghost and Goblins and Commando and Bayana Commando and even Sweet Home. He's also kind of the creator of Resident Evil, but he employed Shinji Makami to figure out his idea. And we also have Mega Man creator Akira, Kitamura.

He is the sole person credited with game design. so he is likely the director or the planner of the game, whatever you want to call it. I don't know where he ended up, maybe Jeremy knows, but he really burned fast and bright at Capcom and seemingly was out of the game industry. Yeah, I just totally blinked on the name of the studio that he founded, but he left Capcom around the time this came out, actually. He produced this or directed this, designed this, and Mega Man 2, and then left and, wow, why can I not remember the name of the studio created?

but he worked on games like Little Sampson. That was his studio. Oh, cool, cool. And it sounds like he kind of mostly left the games industry after a while, but I know he's still around. And, yeah, like, I don't know exactly what the circumstances were there, but he did some good stuff even after Capcom. The company he created was called TakeRue.

Takearu, that's it, yes, yeah, that's it. Takearu, there we go, yeah. So, yeah, a bunch of Capcom All-Stars working on this. Also, music by Harumi, Fujita, composed soundtracks for things like Bionicamando, Chippendell Rescue Rangers, co-wrote soundtracks for Gargoyles Quest, Mega Man 3, Final Fight, and more, just top-tier Capcom talent. She is the, she is called the mother of Capcom sound. Like, the sound that you associate with Capcom games,

especially like NES and arcade in the late 80s, and into the 90s, That was kind of, she was the one who masterminded that. And I had the chance to interview her a few years back. It's been a while. And unfortunately, that article fell through and never saw publication. But she's like, she's top tier. And she's still active in the industry, composes her own material. She's still around, along with Manami Matsumai, a few of the other Capcom composers of that era.

Yeah, listening to this music and, you know, playing a bit of the game, watching videos. It made me think, oh, I've heard this music elsewhere, and I think a lot of people use it in their own podcasts and YouTube videos and stuff. It's a very fun fantasy theme podcast. It doesn't use the Howard Shore score at all. Is it Howard Shore I completely forgot? Whoever did the music for the movie doesn't use their score at all.

Yeah, James Warner. Oh, James Horner, right. Got it. So, yeah, I think this would be remembered more if it wasn't attached to Willow, because if it wasn't attached to Willow, it could have been re-released by now. And they're going for a Zelda thing here.

turn on the game, it's a little link-looking sprite in front of an opening that you can go into. You don't get a sword there, but you get a sword another place. It really feels like Secret of Mana a bit before that series kicked off. And there's also some kind of sophisticated things happening with

the sword play that you would see in later games like Link to the past. It's a very forward thinking action RPG when at the time action RPGs were kind of just like ease and I think that's kind of it. This came out the same year as Crystalis. for NES and

those two games have a very different look like this this has the muddy look of the film it's like it's got the Fazzanidu's color palette it's just brown all brown that's the only color in this entire gun they they saw the five browns and the NES pallet and were like

that's it that's our game but if you look past the murkiness it uses some of the same mechanics as Crystallus like crystallus you have these four swords that you have to collect and you can only use a sword once you hit a certain level. And once you hit that level, then you gain access to that sword.

And Willow kind of does the same thing, but in a different way, where you gain access to some pretty powerful swords along the way, but until you gain sufficient levels to have mastered them, you really suck at using them. So you have to kind of ask yourself, like, which sword is better for me to use right now, the one that's kind of powerful but I still suck at, or the one that's less powerful, but I'm better at using.

And it's, yeah, it really, like to me, it really does a great job of capturing the feel of the hero's evolution and journey, where he becomes more capable and skillful in a sort of substantial way. It's not just tied to his inventory, like in so many action RPGs, but his aptitude with the stuff that he collects.

And, you know, it means that suddenly things that have been in your inventory for quite a while. I think you get some of the really powerful swords really early on, but they don't become useful until you get to a point where your character can use them. Of course, that also means you're very inclined to just grind for experience, which is never that fun. But if you can get past that impulse, then I think it's a pretty rewarding system.

Yeah, I like to say just really shorthand for this game, that it's kind of like what I would have expected Zelda 2 to be like a little bit more. than what we actually got out of Zelda, too, because it is kind of has the same look as Legend of Zelda, and there's more of like a narrative, I guess, like talking to people and that sort of thing. This, yeah, this game, I wish it was not attached to Willow because I feel like it deserves to be played again.

And, you know, Disney is becoming more comfortable with allowing these older games to be released again in different collections. So maybe there will be like a Digital Eclipse Willow collection, although I think the ship has sailed on that or perhaps Jeremy Limited Run Games Willow collection I'm putting that out there Yeah as soon as Capcom

discovers that we exist I would love to pitch this to them And a few other things about the game Because we have to move on You don't expect it from an NES game at this time But it doesn't really adapt the movie Instead it's just an unrelated Zelda-style adventure And they sprinkle in different things

That happened in the movie throughout But not in any particular order So you're still going to see things you saw in the movie but just randomly throughout your journey. I guess they were obligated to do that, but they just crafted their own game around those moments. The entire premise of the game is completely different than the premise of the movie.

That too, yes. The premise of the movie is, it starts out like get a Laura to a Dikini so they can raise her, right? But in the premise of the game, beyond like this mythology they've attached to that Morda and Finrazel is, is that Willow is like this hero of destiny, like Link, basically. It's pretty much that.

And, yeah, stuff happens similar, kind of, as to what's in the movie, but not really. Like, Mad Margins hardly in it at all. Yeah, there's no baby. The baby's an MPC you talk to later in the game. You don't carry the baby around with you. Yes. This is from a different timeline where Willow correctly recognized which finger has the most magic. Yeah, there you go.

Oh, that's right. That's right. So one final thing, though, Capcom, it feels like they're experimenting with the kind of games they can make because 89 is Willow. It's also Destiny of an Emperor and Sweet Home. And those are all, like, different variations on RPGs. And I find that very interesting.

And they were not doing things like this before. So they're getting their feet wet in the world of RPGs, but these are not all just Dragon Quest's clones. In fact, they're far from that. So moving on to the arcade game, yes, made by Capcom. Now, I want to know from you guys, Chris and Jeremy, But listeners tell me as well, this game feels rare to me. I go to a lot of classic gaming conventions because we do panels at them and I enjoy being there.

And they often have big arcades with a bunch of old arcade games you can play for free. I have never seen this game in my life in the wild. And it was one of those games that I was shocked existed when I was 20 years ago downloading every maim rom and seeing Willow thinking they made a Willow game that's not on the NES. So this does feel rare to me. Any other experiences from you, too? I absolutely agree with that. Yeah, I found out about it, I think, in around 98-ish.

Just, I think I went to a Willow fan site or something. And they had screenshots, and there was like this huge death dog there. And I was like, whoa, how have I missed this? I think I did see it at maybe it was California Extreme or something like that, where there are a ton, just a ton of arcade games, probably like 10 years ago. but and yeah it was like whoa this thing actually does exist but yeah i feel like it's super rare too have you seen this in the wild jeremy no i another okay like you did not know this game existed until like 25 years ago when i stumbled upon it mucking around with maim and said

huh wow this sure does feel like a capcom game from 1989 that's uh it is definitely it is definitely of of that oove but i have never seen it at a classic games convention, never saw it in the wild back in the day. And I was living at arcades at this point of my life, like just going every weekend to, you know, the mall or to putt putt or whatever and just like drinking in the CRT screens and blasting through quarters. But nope. I'm going to be looking for it now. And I guess my own speculation is this game and the NES game came out about a year after the movie. And I think with the NES game, there's not a lot of production overhead for that. So,

they're like, yeah, just make a bunch of those. But for the arcade game, maybe they were more selective about building these cabinets and shipping them out because the movie was not a big hit and people weren't that interested in playing a Willow game a year later. I guess the VHS release would renew interest, but maybe they knew. Let's be a little more conservative with the making of these arcade cabinets for Willow. You said it was big in Japan as a movie. Maybe most of the arcade units went to Japan.

Yeah, maybe this was a game was just made for Japan primarily. That could be very true. Like you said, Jeremy, very 89 capital. Com, very pre-Final fight Capcom, in that this is like Ghost and Goblins, it's like Black Tiger, it's like Magic Sword. It reminds me of the latter two, especially because there's an in-game shop. And this definitely would have been a brawler if it was a 1990 game, absolutely, because that's what was popular.

If this had come out a year later, then two people would have been able to team up as Willow and Mad Bartigan and play together. Because, yeah, you're right. Like, this feels a lot like Magic Sword. aesthetically it also reminds me a lot when you play as Mad Mardigan of Strider which came out in 1989 So it just has that

Oh yeah It's just got that Capcom look to it And feel and it does feel like an in-between point From Strider to Magic Sword And yeah like it just belongs there But again I have no idea where it ever appeared Or if anyone actually played it in real life

I'd like to know. Yeah, it feels very of that time. It always is weird to me to play an arcade platform where it just seems wrong because I grew up with the context of these games are the games that are on your home systems, not the ones in the arcade. So it's always a bit weird for me.

But this game directed by Yoshiki Okamoto, another legendary Capcom guy. He fled the Capcom, sorry, yeah, he fled the Capcom from Konami after developing Jiris and Time Pilot. Willow's the last game he directs before moving on to being a producer. and he is responsible for a lot of the early 80s

Capcom arcade hits like 1942 and Son Son and sidearms and gun period smoke and this is unrelated but I was like oh right gun smoke is the first Red Dead Redemption game kind of in a way if you squint they're related and yes went on to have a very fruitful career founded flagship in Game of Republic

that wasn't so good for him but then he made Monster Strike and he's fine so yeah single player game it goes back and forth between Willow and Mad Mardigan although I think in one level you can choose which one you want to play as. Mad Mardigan, obviously, melee, Willow is the projectile character. And what this game does is like, what are the set pieces from the movie? Let's make those in the levels. And for the most part, it's very successful.

And you meet all the characters from the movie, for the most part, the villains at least, in some fashion. Yeah, it's kind of like, too, like just the, you know, it's ridiculous in terms of adapting Willow. It's nothing. I mean, it has a set pieces. But it treats Willow like he was always this badass sorcerer guy. And, you know, he meets up with Mad Mardigan. And Matt Mardigan says, thanks for saving me to show my appreciation. I'll join your fight.

You know, it treats things completely differently. And just the pace of it actually kind of reminds me if you want to go back to other Lucas stuff like Super Star Wars or Indiana Jones' greatest adventures. This is the super Willow of what's out there in terms of Lucas film video games. That's true. that's true it's like what are the iconic moments and how do we make those into video game levels and yeah it's playing fast and loose with the Willow rules because in the movie

in the beginning it's like Willow you have three acorns to throw at people that's it goodbye but in all these games here's a sword Willow has a magic meter he can charge up and fire and the shop has a ton of like different powerups it reminds me of like what they're going towards with the Capcom D&D brawlers where there's stores and waste upgrade your characters

and things like that but obviously this is very early in that kind of evolution. But no way you're ever going to play this unless you see it in the wild. So if you're curious, just emulate it. And it's a fun 20 minutes. I just don't like that. It's one of those games where you can't restart as soon as you die. There are checkpoints.

So you're going to be stuck on some bosses until you get them right. It's that sort of design. The very ghost and goblin style design. But yeah, those are the Willow Games. And that is our Willow discussion. Thank you to Chris Baker for being here as well as Jeremy. any final Willow thoughts I think

there's something to Willow there's something I find it very middling but I feel like there's enough there that I'm not offended by the existence of a new series

and I'm glad people are into it and the original movie and maybe with another movie who knows in like 1990 they could have done more with the story more with the world but instead we're left with these two

like very distant in time productions of Willow But hey, Willow exists, and that's good for some people. Chris, any final thoughts? Yeah, you know, as I've said, like, I just, I really enjoy the fun of Willow in general, and that extends to the new show. And, you know, I think there is something here if someone wanted to take this world and, you know, further develop it in a very similar manner that Lucasfilm Games does with Star Wars.

and I guess D.C. is going to do with their games. You know, you could extend this Willow universe in games, and I'd really love to see when somebody do that. Jeremy, any final thoughts about Willow, the entirety of Willow? No, I mean, I kind of said it before. Like, I really like Willow himself, and everything else around Willow, at least in the movie, is just kind of a little bit grating.

But for the most part, I've enjoyed, the new TV series. And I guess it's kind of funny that in the new TV series, his character arc is basically the same as Luke Skywalker and The Last Jedi. So continuing to milk that Star Wars connection for all its worth, all the similarities. But on the whole, it's pretty good. They even made Flash Thompson into a likable guy. Well, that is the final word on Willow for now. Who knows what Willow will have in the future. And we'll be there to report on it if it does happen. And I'm sure we can have Chris on again if there's more Willow News. But until then, check out Willow Talk.

And as for us, if you want to check out more of what we do and get these episodes one week ahead of time and ad-free, please go to patreon.com slash retronauts. Sign up there for three bucks a month. You can get just that. But for five bucks a month, that is my recommended tier for all of you out there who are listening because you get the advanced episodes. And also you get two full-length exclusive episodes every month

and a weekly column and podcast by Diamond Fight. And we are now in our fourth year, of doing those exclusive episodes, so if you're not on the $5 tier, you have missed quite a bit of those. So if you want to catch up, go to patreon.com slash retro knots. Sign up there for five bucks a month, and we would appreciate it greatly. Thank you. Chris, please tell us more about where we can find you and more about Willow Talk. Yeah, Willow Talk is, we're just going to put it out whenever we feel like doing one right now that the show has ended its first season. But we will definitely do at least an NES specific episode that, you know,

is going to be basically a walkthrough of the entire game and what we think of it as Willow fans from that perspective and as gamers, because we're both former LucasArts guys ourselves. We're also probably going to do something on the Shadow Moon book at the very least. But, yeah, you can find us at A. Willow podcast. Typically, Twitter is what we use. We technically have an Instagram.

and you can find me at C-Bake-7-6 on Twitter and you can see what else I'm up to there. Awesome, thanks for being on, Chris. And Jeremy, you've got a lot going on. You've got books, you've got videos, you've got retronauts. Tell us about the Jeremy Parish experience. Yeah, so people have probably heard of retronauts, so I won't believe her that.

But there is the work that I do with limited to run games, which is not include plans for a Willow collection. I'm very sorry. I'm not really allowed to talk about what we're doing, but I can say that is not in the cards. But if you go over to YouTube where I make videos about NES and Sega games and so forth, I will be covering the Willow NES game. I looked it up, but it's sometime in 2024.

It's a ways away. But I will get there. Late 1989, it's going to happen. And I'm looking forward to it. I remember enjoying Willow for NES when I borrowed it from a friend back in, like, junior high school. Even though I was still kind of new and inexperienced to role-playing games and thought, oh, these are too complicated for me. I still powered all the way through it and enjoyed it and fed into my interest in the genre.

So I'm looking forward to revisiting it for the first time in, well, that'll be 20, no, 35 years. Very good, very exciting. Love that mortality. Love to count away years of my life by looking at video games. Anyway, that's what I do. That's what the podcast is all about, yes. And as for me, I've been Bob Mackey, your host. You can find me on Twitter as Bob Servo.

I do a ton of other podcasts on the Talking Simpsons network. That's at patreon.com slash Talking Simpsons, wherever you find podcast. There's Talking Simpsons, what a cartoon, tons of miniseries about things like Futurama, King of the Hill, Batman, the animated series, and so on. Check it out at patreon.com slash Talking Simpsons. That's it for us for this week. We'll see you again very soon for another episode of Retronauts. Take care. ...that...

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