Retronauts - 524: Sonic 3 + Knuckles, Pt. 1

Episode Date: April 3, 2023

Stuart Gipp begins his threatened deep dive into the Sonic the Hedgehog series, joined by stalwart hogmaniac Seumidh MacDonald and just regular maniac Dave Bulmer. You ain't ready for this. This episode is brought to you by ExpressVPN. Visit ExpressVPN.com/retronauts to learn more! Retronauts is made possible by listener support through Patreon! Support the show to enjoy ad-free early access, better audio quality, and great exclusive content. Learn more at http://www.patreon.com/retronauts

This episode of Retronauts is brought to you by ExpressVPN. Go to ExpressVPN.com slash Retronauts to learn more. This week in Retronauts, Hydrocity, hydrocity, it doesn't matter, say it however you want, and you'll hear no more about it. What about Hydro Kittin? Hello and welcome to Retronaut, starring, well, not starring, that's a bit, it's a bit fancy, isn't it? Starring, Stewardship. I mean, I'm here. I'm doing it, but I wouldn't call myself a star or anything.

I mean, that's up to you guys, but I mean, if anyone wants to call me, that would be really, like, validating. so, you know, please do. You know what, I'm going to just go with it. Starring me, Stuart Gip, hosting an episode on the subject that has done me the most permanent brain damage of all gaming subjects, that is, Sonic the Hedgehog, once again, my arch-nemesis and most passionate lover,

come together once more in a disgusting orgy of rings, and I don't even know where I'm going with this. I think I'm just going to have to introduce the guests because this could get really ugly. Now, what's the best order to do it? You know what? I'm going to introduce our newcomer first. Although you may be familiar with them from YouTube and elsewhere.

And that is Shamey McDonald. Hello. Hello. I'm Shemi. Or, it's good. Yeah, I didn't do a very good prompt. I'm making a great first impression here, eh? Well, I didn't do a very good prompt.

It's kind of on me. I didn't really leave you anywhere to go from there. did I? I left you dangling. I'm Shemey. My username is Shemey, so you know how to pronounce it. I like Sonic. Years ago, years ago, I did a three-part YouTube series on Sonic, which achieved views. And you'll probably know me for that seven-hour Pokemon analysis that sometimes pops up in people's inboxes. I'm very sorry about that.

I can't control the algorithm. So that happened to me once with one of my videos, except it was a video that I did where I synced Inogami Coroner to disturbs down with the sickness and not anything of any value that I had made. Oh, so we're in the same boat then? Yeah, well, I'll come on. I wouldn't say that you're saying our Pokemon analysis

has no value. I mean, I would say it, I mean, I'm sure it has some value, you know, there's in there somewhere. It's a very good contraceptive. Also joining us is the erstwhile impossible to shake off, once again released from the Retronauts Shed, where I've given him both a train set and some Lego Technic, which he's said is too hard. It's too hard. It's Dave Bulmer.

Don't like it. Hello, I'm Dave Bulmer. You should all go watch Shamey's Sonic Spitball series. They're my favourite Sonic videos on YouTube. Hi, I'm Dave Bulmer, and I'm from Sonic the Comic the podcast. That's why I'm here, and that's what my credentials are. Wow, so, you know, no kind words for Video World 13 is a very patchy Christmas. Yeah, but that goes without saying they know you.

Of course they should, yes, you should watch his videos as well. Yeah, thanks. Cheers. Next time you just slap me in the face, Dave. I like how Dave had a better intro for me than I did. I mean, I feel like I gave Dave more to work with. I think it really is on me, you know. but look what are we doing here that's the real question and that's what we get asked every time

we're seen anywhere in any context so what i wanted to do personally is uh you know i wanted to give sonic his dues because i think in ratronauts sonics had a bit of a bum uh a bum experience is that is that a term a bum experience i was going to say a bum rap but i think that means something else so i just ended up saying a bum experience which sounds a bit you know i mean it could be any number of things really couldn't it This is the best start of an episode so far. I agree. Sonic has had a bum experience because...

I've seen the fan art. I know he's had a bomb experience. Because the thing about Retronauts is, until you came along, Stu, it was American. And they don't get it. They just, they try their best. I'm not having a go.

But they, they've been coded and programmed from their childhoods to think that only plumbers can be in games and anything else is an aberration. And so they didn't embrace Sonic in the way that we did. If I may speak more diplomatically, Dave. Okay.

What I think Dave is trying to say is that Americans really are just fucking useless, gormless arseholes. All of them. Yeah, that's it. That was it. I was nearly there. But sometimes I'm not,

I'm just not articulate enough sometimes. At the risk of endangering my career, I have to say I agree with Shea on every level. No, I loved, I liked Retronauts before, was in it. But it's better now, isn't it? I mean, it was great before and now it's great, plus I'm in it, so what can I say? But they just, they don't have the, they don't have

the context for Sonic. They think it was this weird other thing, and it wasn't, it was the best one. Yeah, we did Sonic most correctly in as, as mentioned now in, and I don't say this to sound weary of it, but I think it's come up in about five episodes now. But it's important. It is important, I agree, but we did Sonic best.

But to be honest, that's slightly off topic in a sense because what I wanted to do for Sonic, and I've been talking about this since like forever since I was ever on this podcast, is I wanted to do deep dives. And I mean really just get in there, like really nasty like the lint out of Sonic's belly button kind of thing, you know, where the lint is effects or opinions. And the belly button is like analysis. I don't know how this works. But the point is. this could be big this could be a long one and I wanted to start with Sonic 3 and Knuckles simply for two main reasons one it's the best one I don't think that's in debate is it

and two I don't want to go through Sonic 1 and 2 again everyone's done everyone knows everything about those games yeah like everyone this is right Sonic 1 and 2 are your

like it's the ones you start with if you've got like all the YouTube analysis you start with like Sonic 1 and two. It's like if you talk to an average punter, the ones they are most likely to know are Sonic 1 and 2. But for me, Sonic 3 and Knuckles were the Mac Daddy. They were the great hairy wallapurton ball sack. You know, they were fan. Like, they are so good. I don't really play Sonic 1 and 2 anymore. Like, I think they are excellent in and of themselves. But like,

I could play them with massive bells and whistle. on with, like, I could play just a superior version of those games in Sonic 3 and Knuckles. So, you know, like, there's an event horizon, even with Sonic Mania. Like, it's like sometimes, hey, I'll maybe sit down and play some Sonic Mania. And then I think, oh, well, you know, actually, I could just play Sonic 3 and Knuckles instead. It's got, like, this, this gravitational field where anything remotely similar to it, I don't want to play because it's not Sonic 3 and Knuckles. I have to agree, because sometimes I sit down and I play Sonic Mani, and I'm, and I just go, Oh, this kind of sucks.

I'm going to play Sonic 3 O'Nuckles instead, which I think is fair, considering it's just basically the same game except, you know, with no filter. I think that's fair. You know, I mean, being the same game with Sonic 3 and Knuckles is really good. It's a good thing to be the same game as.

Being, like, appreciably worse, Sonic 3 and Knuckles is still pretty outstanding, I would say. That's exactly why I, yes, I don't give the game the hard time that you do, but like, yeah, it's not as good, is it? Like Sonic, of course is not. It's an imitation of perfection. They got very close.

They got admirably close. Well, it's like soda stream Coke is just not as good, is it? I mean, it's an aberration. You want an actual proper Coke from like a, you know, a can. You don't want soda stream. Nobody wants soda stream. What's this podcast about again? I don't know.

Remembering stuff that happened a long time ago. Soda stream counts back. Okay, yes. Yeah, SodaStream, Sonic, basically the same thing, I would say. Yeah, Sonic collects those bubbles, doesn't it? There you go, there's the connection. Yeah. They both start with S.

Yeah, and that too, yeah, yeah. And soda stream, Sega Sonic, it's kind of the same. Do they have soda stream in America? I assume they do, because they can't get enough of that soda. I'm not sure to even have it in Scotland. I don't know what you're talking about. Oh, okay, fair enough. Well, you know your favourite iron brew?

I do. I do know my favourite iron brew. Well, if you wanted to have iron brew, but you didn't have actual iron brew. What you could do with the soda stream is you could put some water in it and you would have a sort of a sash, like a syrup, wouldn't you? Yeah. It's like an iron brew-flavoured syrup and you'd put it in. And you could create your own, your very own, very special, nice iron brew for you to drink

while you're having your neaps and tatties. I'm going to preface this next sentence with the fact that I'm a little under the weather today. I'm a little stuffy and bad in the head. I've got one in the bloody kitchen. A soda stream? No, an iron brew. Oh, okay. Right, right.

No, yeah, soda stream. So I do know what it is. Well, it's quite all right. It's not something that comes into the popular use these days. Well, the thing about a soda stream is you'd be forgiven for not knowing what one is even if you have one because we had one. And I didn't know what it was. And it's because once you've got it, that's it. You don't use it again.

No, you just buy it and you go, oh, I've got a soda stream. And then you have some of your soda stream, Coca-Cola. And you go, well, that wasn't very nice. I'm not going to use this again. Sasho runs out and that's it. Whatever, we did use it to make the lovely blue one. I don't know what blue was, but it was very nice. Like a blue slush puppy kind of thing.

Wait, it must have been blue raspberry, mustn't it? But I just called it, can I have a blue drink, please, mum? And she'd have to set up a whole machine. Oh, you have Sonic the Hedgehog's blue. Oh, there it is. Right back in again. There's just no way to escape, is there? We have to face down the, staring down the barrel of the inevitability

that we're going to have to talk about Sonic 3 Knuckles at some point. Oh, no. Our favourite thing. But I thought that a good start would be, I'm going to ask you first, Shea, what your intro to this game was. Like, how did you come to this game? I suppose how did you come to Sonic as well, in a matter, by way of, or this game by way of becoming into Sonic, if indeed you ask it into Sonic? I've got, I'm going to come clean. No, fucking hate Sonic.

The last 11 years have been a ruse to get me into this position so I could bam you up. Wow. No, like I... This is awkward because the same for me, to be honest. This is a little bit as hell. I got into Sonic back when I was a kid. It was my great aunt bought me Sonic the Comic, the UK's premier hedgehog-based periodical

from 1993 to 2001, even overtaking the small, like, pamphlet you would get in gardening world about hedgehogs. And that was a... Really good pamphlet, too. Yeah, and what, like, I remember the great controversy about feeding them milk and honey. But anyway, right, sorry, that's a fucking shit joke tangent. Okay, I started reading Sonic the comic, and I was obsessed with it. I'd read the Beano and the Dandy, which are other UK comics.

And I was reading this, and I was like, oh, my God, look at what you can do with this. And look at this Sonic character, he's so cool. I didn't even realize he was a video game character for the first few years. I was born The first few years Yeah I was born a year and a day Before Sonic 3 launched You know I was one by the time it came out

So I like you know I didn't play it as a kid I do remember I think it must have been around 98 or 99 Going to my pal's house And us playing his Mega Drive And we played Mickey Mania And we played Sonic 3 in Knuckles Because I can like vividly remember the end of Angel Island

but that was literally that wasn't even like 20 minutes of play you know we just played the first level and then switch cartridge the PlayStation was out at this time yeah so my my first real time sitting down with this like I also got Sonic Mega Collection but I was I was a kid back then I was like oh this is the 3D

you know I'll go and play my fucking cool new 3D Sonic games it was about 2010 when I really sat down with Sonic 3 for the first time and I fell in love with it it would be like for the first while it was like daily replays and then it became weekly replays and it's been like kind of like

annually replayed since and then it became hourly replays I started slowing down and I just sped right the way back up to obsession I became a speed runner which means that like by all accounts I really fucking hate the game and I just scream at it every every waking second.

This is the sweariest episode I've ever done. I love it. Oh my God, are we allowed to swear? Yeah. You're absolutely allowed to swear. Yeah. Okay, good. I just realized. I described the Great Hairy Walburton bossa earlier.

Mr. Parrish, I am so sorry. You've brought disarray and shames of the Retronauts podcast. No, it's fine. It's fine. Well, that's your fault, because you brought Shane May to the podcast. Oh, come now. Did you see? Look, it's an idea of fact that I'm very prudish about my language.

The thing is, that would be the most Dave Bulmer sentence I've ever heard, except that he said that he owned two copies of the Mr. Blobby CD when he was a kid. Well, I think I assumed he had it on tape, and he thought, well, the fidelity here isn't quite high enough for me to truly enjoy bang on stew you've got it exactly right there so he got the CD right correct yeah I knew it I wanted that sweet instrumental version

yeah then you went on soulseek and got the flack as soon as solseek became a thing yeah you were like give me that sweet sweet lostless blobby yeah that was uh off air though unfortunately when I said And then you had to buy some solid gold-plated headphones to get the maximum possible sound quality. Oh, that's right. Yeah, and a special wooden volume knob, because they're the best. Yeah.

When I was a kid, the Mr. Blobby musical was the fact that Mr. Blobby did a job on the motorway. Oh, yes. He did. That was the basis of the single. I mean, Mr. Blobby, of course, now has having been sold, like, you know, in a really... His carcass, yeah. Yeah, his corpse has been sold, which is a bit much. That was fun, wasn't it?

because somebody found the actual real Mr. Blobby costume they used on the BBC, sold it or at least auctioned it for thousands. 81,000, yeah. And then everyone with like a 10-quid blow-up blobby costume or balloon or anything just started trying to sell him for thousands. No, it has to actually be Mr. It has to be him. It has to be the real blobby. Yeah. Oh, no, the blobby bubbles burst. That's what you love to breathe

You're the one of the pink and yellow You're always thinking that's a coffee in the night. You'll always think that's that Bobby is the best of all me As the sort of chronically online person who launched and co-hosts the world's longest-running retro gaming podcast, I've been on the World Wide Web since the start. Back in the old days, it was a pretty casual place, and you could keep track of a handful of websites that saved info about your visits by simply going to your cookies folder. But these days, surveillance is pretty much the Internet's default mode. Even browsing incognito does nothing to protect your personal. privacy. Companies like Google still track your behavior regardless. So how do you actually

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So you only need to tap a single button to enjoy instant anonymity. So if you really want to go incognito and protect your privacy, secure yourself for the number one-rated VPN. Visit ExpressVPN.com slash Retronauts and get three extra months for free. That's E-X-P-R-E-S-V-P-N.com slash Retronauts. Go to ExpressVPN.com slash Retronauts to learn more. Oh, boy. Dave, how did you come to enjoy Sonic 3 and Knuckles, my dear friend? Well, I already, I mean, I still, sorry, didn't have a Mega Drive when that game came out, but I was already a big Sonic fan right from the off, you know, right from when Sonic 1 came out,

just from going to friends' houses, playing it around children's world where they had a playable copy of it there, things like that. And so by the time Sonic 3 came out, I was well and truly like an active Sonic fan. I was, I was reading Sonic the comic, I had every issue, I had the books and, you know, just everything you could do, what, taping all the episodes of the cartoon, everything you could do other than having a Mega Drive I was doing. And eventually, you know, that meant, of course, that when I did get a Mega Drive, suddenly it was a straight run of four brilliant games that I was able to get very quickly.

But, yeah, you know, I would go around a friend's house, and my best friend at the time had the game, and we used to really bond over that. That was really a thing that we did together was him having Sonic 3. It's a beautiful sort of thing to bond over it, isn't it? Yeah. To be like, you have Sonic 3. I want to play Sonic 3

I will remain friends with you for the purpose of playing Sonic 3 Perfect And I was just around his house recently And at least two of his four kids Are into Sonic now They were sat there Unbidden

They were playing Sonic Mania And watching some Sonic thing I can't remember what now A friend of mine's niece is really into Sonic Which is wild to me Because having spent all these years in the fandom I stop, I no longer think of it as something children like. Yeah, I know.

So whenever I see children at the Sonic, I'm like, oh, God, no, what's happened? And then I remember, oh, no, it's okay. They actually enjoy it on the level at which it's intended to be enjoyed. Yeah. I remember once my dad, I think it was me and my dad walking through a shopping center while, like, I was, I was like, you know, in my 20s at this point. And he was like, oh, look, look, look, oh, look over there. Jimmy, look, there's a kid wearing a Sonic shirt.

And I'm like, what do you want me to date that? Do you want me to just like walk up and say hi to him? I like Sonic too. That reminds me my dad, whenever he'd, every time he'd see anything with anyone who he knows I like on it, he'll point to it and go, hey, look, there's your mate. Yeah.

I love that. What a great dad thing to do, hey? So, and for me personally, weirdly enough, I don't really remember how I first encountered this game. I think it was maybe in, I mean, I knew it existed just about, because I had friends with Megadrives, but I didn't really, we didn't really play that much. If we were together, we'd be playing something to play

like Street to Rage Straw, Mega Bomberman, and not so much Sonic. Though I did covet it, because I did like Sonic because of STC and because of adventures like the hedgehog, and because of the fact that Sonic's just Ace, I mean, look at him, he's great. Look at him. It's a good guy, isn't he? He's a good fella.

He's the best design for a character ever, and it only got better with Sonic 3. The best design for a character ever? That's a controversial position. No, it is. I'm afraid it is controversial because you haven't taken into account Kirby. Oh, okay. Kirby, yeah, it's good, but no, it's no Sonic.

One, Kirby isn't blue. Two, Kirby hasn't got the spikes. Kirby can be blue. He can have spikes if he collects the needle power. Well, yeah, but that's cheating, isn't it? You might as well say a chow is the best. design then because it can look like Sonic. No, they're rubbish. I hate them. I hate

the channel. It sounds to me that you can't mince them up in the game. It's a shame. You should be able to. Yeah. But, yeah, I'm not sure how I came to it. I remember having a copy of the inexplicably having a copy of the electronic gaming monthly video game

buyer's guide from 1995, where US magazine I'd somehow got hold of. They had enormous multi-page spreads full of, like, beautiful Sonic 3 and knuckle stuff, including like the doomsday zone which was desperately exciting as you can imagine. Yeah.

There's that huge Dr. Robotnik robot like robot Sprite flying through this asteroid field. It's just very, very cool and you know, eventually we're going to get to that. Yeah. But I think the best thing... Eventually.

I think the best thing to do really is just to dive in. And let's lay down a few like, maybe just one like ground draw which is Sonic 3, and Sonic and Knuckles are technically separate products but for the sake of convenience

and because it's the way that the Sonic universe regards these games now I mean look at Sonic Origins there's no way to play them separately in Sonic Origins for example Is they not? No there isn't and I think it's an oversight but if that's how they're presenting the games as a coherent sort of timeline

unless it's very relevant I think we should stick to considering them one thing if you had to choose one way or the other then presenting them as one game is correct. I'll agree with that. Although for the purposes of the recording, I feel like we ought to talk a little bit about what it was like before they were one game.

I think we should talk about that very briefly, yes. We do need to establish where this game kind of came from. Now, I'm not actually that informed on the genesis of this project, no pun intended. Oh, I can take over there if you'd like. Yeah, I'd like you to do it for me, show. This is why I got you on because I don't want to do the research. Okay, so far as I understand it

And keep in mind that this is From the top of my head I haven't prepared a document on this So there may be minor factual inaccuracies Check the comments if there are I'm sure they'll tell you all about it If you have any notes about factual inaccuracies I advise you to just swivel

No, I'm joking Just by all means fill us in the comments Carry on, sorry I believe it started out And it was supposed to be like a 3D project initially but it was also neat the game was intended to be developed in a single year which is pretty tough going but also not that unheard of especially for the time and it was for a few reasons number one is there was a McDonald's tie-in that Sega had planned in the UK and the US at least but also because the game was getting very large and so the cartridge itself would cost a bomb if the whole game was to be put on it. So when it was getting closer to its February 1994 release date,

they made the decision to essentially split it in half. Sonic 3, that is the first six zones, would release on its February release date. They would get the McDonald's tie-in. The cartridge would remain small, which means that people would be more likely to buy it, blah, blah, blah. And then a few months later, I believe it was October, they released Sonic and Knuckles which is the second half of the game

the final zones and it has this weird like hinge on the top where you can essentially shove the two cartridges together to make one mega game. An essential part of the Tower of Power for the Mega Drive when combined with a game

genie or 32X Mega Drive, Mega CD on the side 32X game genie Sonic and Knuckles Sonic 3 in the top yeah you can actually yeah you could is it possible to stack multiple Sonic and Knuckles gosh? Oh yes. Oh yes. It is. Okay, well then that's a never-ending tower of power then. I could go to the moon. Absolutely. There are

literally no other factors preventing you from piling up Sonic and Nuggles and reaching the moon. I wonder how many, I think I've seen before they were trying to do a test of exactly how many things you can stack up and it will still boot. But that's not for now really. That's another thing to worry about. Maybe look it up on you. YouTube or something. It's probably on there. But be careful on there. There's some horrible videos on that website. Is this like seven-hour

Pokemon analysis? Yeah. God. Imagine what kind of a sad uh-oh, whoops. Oh, boy. I'm tugging my color now. The best place I think to... Oh no, we haven't talked about

the most important thing about this game which is that Michael Jackson made all the music for it, every single tune. Yep. But this is a thing that... Because I want to talk about this because I find it hilarious. Now, correct me if I'm wrong about this

because I love this. This is so good. For a long time, like many years, it was essentially considered that what happened was Michael Jackson made a bunch of the music for Sonic 3. Then he decided to become a piece.

So they took the music out And replaced it for the PC release with different music Which everyone would say at the time is not as good It's very much sounds like it was just kind of slotted in there Then a few, a couple of years ago, I want to say A November 1993 prototype of Sonic 3 dropped Hidden Palace.org or whatever it's called Revealing that in fact

the music from Sonic 3 on PC is the original music and the Michael Jackson tinged to music was what replaced it. Yes. Which basically turned the entire mystery on its head which I love it when stuff like that happens. It was great. And as soon as that happened,

everyone started going, oh, it's actually good, isn't it? Well, it was good because through the Mega Drive chip, it actually does sound like good music to me. Yes, that's right. It was just a sort of bad MIDI that they had on the PC version, isn't it? I'm rather fond of the prototype music. Unfortunately, when it was brought over to Sonic Origins,

they kind of screwed some of it up by re-augustrating it when they only really need to have cleaned it up, in my opinion. But no, they decided to redo it, but make it as though it was being recorded through a toilet wall. For me, it's, like, so far as I understand it, it's actually, there was claims that Michael Jackson wasn't happy with how his music sounded through the sound chip and blah, blah, blah. When, of course, it was, like, it was around,

the time that the allegations started coming out and I think it's safe to say that those diplomatic reasons for his departure there's still a lot of kind of mystery surrounding it but from what I understand it's like he recorded samples

if you listen to a lot of the music in Sonic 3 there's a lot of kind of like Michael Jackson style vocalisms and he recorded them but a lot of the actual music composition was done by his teeth rather than the man himself.

Yeah, a Brad Bucer from the Jetsons, right? Yeah, yeah, because Ice Cap Zone is like basically just one-to-one an unreleased single from Bad Bucks and Bruckers. Hard times. Maybe we can get that in one of the breaks on this show because it's kind of a banger. Oh, it is, absolutely, yeah. A bit of a synth lost classic in my opinion.

And the sort of the embarrassing thing is that kind of until we started to get a bit more grown up and more interested in really analyzing things and going like, listen to the nuances of this. Ice Cap Zone was pretty much de facto everyone's favourite tune from the game and it turns out to just, yeah, this other guy just brought his existing recording and slapped it

on the table and went, hey, I have that. Well, this is the thing about it. It's like even the credits music for Sonic 3 which was replaced in Sonic and Knuckles and Sonic 3 and Knuckles apparently, I believe, again, correct me if I'm wrong, I believe it was Brad Buxer himself said that became the basis for Stranger in Moscow.

I think that was Brad Bugs. And stuff like that. So, like, he's obviously reusing ideas in places where he thinks that's appropriate. And, yeah, I can see that. For me, personally, that the soundtrack it originally released with, the Brad Bucks or

Michael Jackson soundtrack, is so ingrained in my head that I, the prototype music and the PC, like, the prototype music and everything, I think is good. I think it's very good. But for me, it's just, it's not, it feels wrong because it's not what I

I've played for so long and so often. I'll tell you what it feels like to me. It feels like the Sonic CD jump noise. You're like, okay, I accept that, but it's wrong. I honestly, I find it remarkable how quickly they grew on me.

The only one I don't like it, funnily enough, is the ice cap replacement, which I think is really mediocre. But the launch base replacement and the Carnival Night replacement, especially, I think, much better, like, in terms of feeling that they fit, that they fit...

Yeah, I mean, I love those tunes, but the ones that, the prototype ones fit the themes way better for me, I think. Possibly. I mean, like, the Carnival Night one is, like, you've got a little bit of a carnival thing going on, but it's essentially just jam from Dangerous. And Launchbase, as great as it is,

it's just a kind of another Michael Jackson song. So I'm a little bit, like, I don't know, the replacement, which has that kind of da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. It's very cool. It feels more like a flash-garden kind of spaceship-taking-off kind of theme, which very much fits the aesthetic.

Yeah. I mean, I'm fond of them. I mean, I get it. I mean, they are definitely ingrained in my head, but they have grown on me. And if I'm going to play this game, the fact of the matter is I'm probably going to be playing something like three complete these days, so I can pick and choose anyway,

whatever music I want to hear. Or origins, which I'm less likely to pick up, because how bad it sucks. Although it's kind of okayish now, I guess. But it's only got the replacement music, hasn't it? It does, yeah. It's such a shame because it is like, there is so much, this is petulant fan stuff, sorry.

There is so much misinformation about the old Sonic games. You know, there's so many, even new Sonic fans saying they suck and a lot of old Nintendo fans going back to them. And they do play differently. Like, I totally appreciate that they are not. Like if you've been used to a different style of platform or your entire life, these things are slightly different. You know, I totally get all that. But then it's like, okay, Sonic Origins comes out and it's like, okay, this is the opportunity.

Like, this is front and center. Here's all the good stuff in one easy-to-digest package. Like, you know, please pick this up, blah, blah. You know, this is it. This is where you can go. But then they come out and the physics are slightly different. they're slightly off and there's a lot of other

weird little changes and stuff and sometimes it interferes with the way the game's actually designed one of the things that people say is that like Sonic's unfair you like just prying into stuff all the time and there's no way you can help it which I think is completely untrue

except in Sonic Origins where sometimes that is true because the physics are slightly different so a spring will ping you too high directly into spikes. That's the thing it's so precisely tuned that yeah these little differences just bolster the incorrect opinions about the game. Oh, I mean, the thing is, it's easy to get roped into, not that that's what I'm saying

is happening here, but it's easy to be accused of, if you talk about game difficulty on any real level, it's easy to get told of that you're gatekeeping. And there's an extent to which I think that does happen. My approach with Sonic is, and I know how this comes off, and I truly don't care anymore. It's kind of like, all right, so this game that has an inbuilt system to completely negate any problem with actually taking damage. Yeah. With one action button and the D-pad being its only inputs.

This game that is like well known to be hugely popular with people who have like even severe learning difficulties. That's not me trying to be edgy. That's actually like genuinely true. Yes, of course. Yeah. And you're, they're telling me, this is, this game is unfair. This is the game that's too hard.

It's unfair. That's like, what are you talking about? It's just drivel. Yeah, I've never, I've never believed when I hear that because it just sounds so much like, because I know I talk like that about stuff I'm not giving a chance. You know what I mean? When I sit down to something that isn't precisely what I like already, that's the kind of rot that I talk. And so when I can hear it in other people, like, no, it's not.

You're just not doing it properly. give it a few minutes more I know for a fact that if I'm not interested in something I can find petulant ways to dismiss it I... I turned off the last of us one because it got something very slightly wrong

about how bats echolocation work and I'm like, I'm no having this. Fuck that off. The fact is I didn't want to play a zombie game because I'm a wimp. You know? But the thing, the frustrating thing to me about Sonic Origins is that I'm like

Sonic 3Nuckles is this incredible game to me. is the best 2D platformer ever made. I include Mario in that. Oh, you should play it, you should play it, you should play it. Just also avoid the most readily available version. It's the only available version. They've taken away, other versions.

They're all gone now. Yeah, absolutely. Like, yeah. It's frustrating. You could download the wrong, but don't forget, listeners, if you download ROMs, you have to delete them. 24 hours. 24 hours is up.

Otherwise, jail. Jail. That's the fanfare that plays when you enter jail. We are now, yeah, I think we're in a good position to start talking about the actual zones. I'm going to assume that most people have a passing understanding of how Sonic games work, which is that, as I've mentioned, it's D-pad and one input. You have the ability to spin dash by crouching and mashing this one input, which revs you up on the floor, and when you release, you'll go flying forwards.

They've also added a new thing to this game called the Instant Shield, which you can use by pressing the jump button again while you're in the air to have a split second of invulnerability. I think it's quite fallible. But it does kind of work. You can go through spikes sometimes with it and hit enemies, which is nice. Other than that, and the fact that you've got tails there

and the second player can use him to fly around and carry Sonic to places. Oh, and Knuckles, I forgot about him. And he can climb walls and glide, but otherwise it's exactly the same. More or less. I think he might jump a little bit less high. Could be wrong on that one. His jumps a little shorter. Yeah. But more or less, you're getting a relatively equivalent experience with the three playable character combos. Well, technically four if you can't Sonic. No, wait more than that, because there's, no, it's just Sonic and Tails, Sonic Tales, right? Yes, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, there's no more. I'm thinking of Sonic Mania getting confused. They've confused me. The game should be withdrawn from sale. But also knew in Sonic 3 is that this game had a battery backup which was removed for Sonic and Knuckles but added back in for Sonic 3 and Knuckles I think Well it wasn't added back in It's just you're playing through the Sonic 3 cart now So it's just there It was just there yeah

Because that's a physical That's an actual you have to have hardware for that The Sonic 3 cartridge came with a little battery in it That allowed you to save And I think that actually contributed to some people Saying that Sonic 3 Was a little bit throw away a little bit easy Nobody of my generation, nobody around me said that

But I gather that's what some people think But then Sark and Knuckles comes out without save And of course by that time Games have moved on a little bit And I think we kind of expected to be able to save by then So we're like, well this is okay This is maybe this is good, I don't know But then you figured out, oh wait

We're supposed to combine this technology So just to get it sort of Just so it's known before we go into the individual sort of zones What's missing from the separate games? games. It's not just Doomsday, is it? No, no. Doomsday isn't. It's... Well, number one is playable characters is you can't... You can't play as Knuckles in Sonic 3 and you can't play as Tales in Sonic and Knuckles.

Right. Well, that's the other thing, isn't it? You can't get all the super emeralds at all. You can't get old... It's basically just... There's some minor tweaks to the levels as well. Right. You're essentially getting the first half of the game with Sonic 3, the last half of the game with Sonic and Knuckles. you put them both together and you get like the whole adventure all at once it's like something like 14 15 zones or something yeah um all of them massive like each individual level is so much larger than any of the it's like three times larger than the ones from sonic one and two yeah you're huge game for a two d platformer and you get to play as all the characters and you get little bonuses here and there and you get the super emeralds which allows you to unlock um even better supersonic. Yeah, hypersonic. I don't think it's spoilers matter at this point.

Yeah, I was like... But just to lay it out, yeah, just in case you're not familiar, you collect these chaos emeralds. They're the main gimmick item of all of the Sonic games, more or less. To get them, you have to find a giant ring. Get in it, play a bonus game. If you win the bonus game, you get an emerald. Then in the second half of the game,

if you've managed to get all of them, you do it again with these super emeralds, which then allow you to become hypersonic or hyponuccles or super tails. Tails gets the short end of the stick to some extent. It doesn't get to be two forms, just one. And it's also a bit lame because all it is is just tails, except there's some birds flying around him. Yes, but the birds are homing missiles that kill everything.

That's quite cool. That is quite cool. I wonder if that wasn't how they inspired cream and cheese from Sonic Advance 2. Probably. Questions to pose to convicted criminal Yuji Naka at some way. If we ever bump into him in jail. Also, if anyone listening... I wonder if he heard that jingle when he got in.

Also, anyone listening who doesn't know the context here is that we didn't know about this at the time. Like, when we played Sonic 3, none of us knew it was only the first half of anything. Like, I don't remember that even being out as a slight rumor. I think it was out, I think it was in magazines along those lines that they've had to I remember, I'm sure I have a magazine from the era where it says about them having to have cut, sort of cut the game in half. Oh, right. Okay. Well, generally speaking, they were trying to keep that under wraps.

And Sonic and Knuckles, when that came out, now we knew that it had this lock-on technology. But my memory of it is that the identity of Sonic 3 when it came out was this, you know, whoosh-bang bells and whistles, you know, you loved Sonic, you loved Sonic 2, here's another one, the natural progression. Sonic and Knuckles, when that came out, there was this sense of like, oh, it's very similar to Sonic 3, isn't it? And, like, we knew about lock-on technology. But the only way that it was ever explained to us what Sonic 3 and Knuckles was, was, you know, you'd have a little blurb on the back of the box,

it would be like, or connect them together for a big adventure or something. And you just sort of, I remember my eyes just kind of glazing over that and not really taking it for anything other than a bit of marketing spin. So when you did actually plug it in and figure out how rich an experience this is and how you really are unlocking a much better version of the thing you've got. It really was tremendously exciting. I mean, you've raised an interesting point there for me, which is that I, as a youngster, what Sonic and Knuckles was,

was it was the device by which you could play as Knuckles and Sonic 2. Yes, that was way more famous than knowing about Sonic 3 and Knuckles. Well, because if you play as Knuckles and Sonic 2, You can climb up to the top of the structure in chemical plant and find four one-ups up there. Which is wild and mad. Because you're thinking, oh my God, how have I overlooked these this whole time?

But of course, in reality, I'm reasonably sure they weren't actually there. No, I don't believe they were. I mean, they would be happy because there's no way for him to get them. I mean, feel free Sonic fans to tell me I'm wrong. No, I think that's right. And there'd be no way to get up there anyway. You have to be knuckles and you have to clamping. And I think it's, well, oh, wait, I know this.

when you play as so so right the way a megadrive works everyone is you got a slot of pins in the megadrive and the inside of a cartridge is a board and it slots into it and that's how the game connects Sonic and Knuckles you unhooked the top and you had a slot of pins like in the Mega Drive so that's how to put something three in.

Sonic, I believe Sonic and Knuckles if you put Sonic 2 in that and you play as Knuckles in Sonic 2 you're not, you're not doing what you think you're doing you're not just playing like you're playing Sonic 2 but it's put this knuckles sprite on. As I understand it, there's a copy of Sonic 2

in the Sonic and Knuckles cartridge or at least it doesn't have any of the graphics but it's got the code, it's got the ROM just without any of the assets. That I think is how it works. So it's pulling the music and graphics out of the cartridge but the game map is in the Sonic and Knuckles cartridge maybe even in a separate little chip

that they've put in there especially and that is why they could slightly redesign certain bits. And that's the only one I know about is that one bit in chemical plant. I don't know if there was any more at all. I'm incredulous about this. I can't believe it, those crooks. That's what I heard.

I don't know. They got me again. Yeah. It's all just tricks in it. It's all trickery gaming. They're not even real people running about in there. It's all just to make a leave. But I don't...

This is maybe me worrying a bit too much. But again, I need to stress for modern listeners is I don't feel hard done by. I don't feel like I don't feel like they swindled us by splitting the game into two because I feel Sonic 3 by itself is so robust

like it is yeah like there is a remarkable quantity and quality to the content just in half of this game this game like look I love this game this is one of my favourite games ever made there is a remarkable quality and quantity of it in just half

of this game half of this game is enough to be an exemplary like mega drive game on its own, literally. And that's why I wanted to make sure that we'd put that across, because I think people just don't talk about that anymore, because we know that the real game is when you're connecting together. But when you had Sonic 3, it was enough.

And then when you had Sonic and Knuckles, the excitement of that, I think, is lost a little bit with playing it as just as one game. Because what it was was that in Sonic 3, you had this new character who was a villain, who you only saw and didn't play as and you just saw him now and then between levels and then the new one comes out and it's Sonic and Knuckles and it was like

Nevermind Tails Do you remember Tales from Sonic 2? This isn't a sweet little game Now you got this brawler You remember Tales when he's dead He's gone forever Knuckles has killed him Well there was a feeling of like

Now that we're older We've played with the fuzzy little sweet fox Now we get to play with this fighter And it was really really exciting to be able to play as knuckles. And it just feels normal. And I mean, that's what we were saying about not feeling swindled, because, I mean, I see that. I mean, all I remember thinking is nice, more Sonic, my favorite thing.

There's more of it. And look at that logo. That's the single- coolest image has ever been produced. Oh, my God. Yeah, I genuinely, I think I've said this on my podcast, it is one of two things I would have, I don't have any tattoos. And if I did, it would be that. and one of the thing that's so personal

I'm not telling you. You can't have tattoos, Dave. Tateoes are for tough kids. I know, exactly. And I would be one if I had a Sonic and Knuckles logo on me. Can you imagine that? Yeah, that's true. I would be scared. I'd be frit to confront you if you did.

But that is because it is one of the best designs anyone's ever done of anything. It's amazing. The Sonic series has that logo and Sonic the Hedgehog in it. Amazing! What I love about that is how much it stands out on a shelf. Because it's like all the rest of them have, like, painted art beautiful painted art trying to convey what is in the game the kind of things you will be doing the characters and all that this is just a logo that is like just a silhouette of

sonic's head yeah and a silhouette of knuckles's head in red next to it it knows you don't need anymore because you know who sonic is and this is like oh right here's sonic and knuckle it's what it's a bit like and actually i think uh on our podcast we realized maybe they were maybe this is what they were riffing on it's right rather like the Batman movie poster, isn't it? Yeah. Which is that same oval shape

with the Batman logo in it on black because the statement being made was, you know what this is, you've grown up with various versions of Batman, we'll check it out. Batman. And that's what this was.

Hey kids, get a load of this, Batman. Yeah. I don't know why I find that funny. Get a load of this. Batman. Yeah, mate. Is that a sonic reference? No sonic references in the Sonic episodes

Sorry I mean Is there more to say before we dive Sort of headlong in Because I feel like we've covered all of the important sort of contextual stuff now Slam it in, turn it on Yeah, all right, well, let's get locked in. Together with the readers,

we've just endured the long drive home from the shop. We've been reading through the manual feverishly in the car. Mum insists on stopping at Sainsbury's and doing a long shop, but we're finally home, the mega drives on, it's a little while till tea, on it goes. Or if you're me, you're in the shop and you're going, can I have a megadry, and you're going, no. Yeah.

But, of course, Sonic 3 and Knuckles, first thing you see when you turn this on outside of the Sega logo is, just a percussion assault and a 3D Sonic like mashing his way out from the screen. Although the percussion assault

is just with three, isn't it? Because they changed it to the for Sonic 3 and Knuckles, yeah. So depending on which one you're playing, if you're playing Sonic 3 alone, you're getting but if you're playing something for a knuckles, you're getting Buhr, I feel like it's important we make

clear. Yeah. Bear that in mind throughout the whole rest of the discussion, everyone. I think the rest of this podcast we should make all the sound effects. So you collect a ring and it goes, bling, didling. Sorry, I'll stop. Boing. Was that the spring? Yeah.

Not bad. Not bad. Although I think they're a little bit deeper than that. Boone. Perfect. Ignoring the Select screen, which is straight out of select three, you're thrust into a what people have recently to my absolute teeth-grinding annoyance

despite the fact that it is accurate have started calling a cold open Oh God I mean it is It is a cold open But you're not in Los Angeles My friends What do they mean by cold open

It doesn't start with a long explanation Of the background story Well what used to be a cold opening Is prior to the title card of the first zone appearing, there is a sequence. Oh, so it's the open you're objected to, not the cold. But it's a cold opening. The game starts.

Yeah, the game starts with Sonic in his regular form, I believe, flying down, standing on the wings of Tails' biplane, the tornado. I don't think it's been named that at this point, though. Flying across the lush waters of the outskirts of Angel Island. wherein he leaps off the plane, shockingly, has me screaming, no Sonic, no, you're going to die. But as he falls off the screen, he runs back on, magically running on the water, but not so much running, but doing his supersonic flying thing that he does, because he is, in fact, supersonic. Now, this establishes something which has never been seen in the Sonic series up to this point,

and I'm going to say it, I'm going to say the C word continuity. because the implication here is that this is directly following on from the ending of site too, right? That's what people take it as, yeah. Is that the implication? I mean, I'm happy for it to take place any time after that, but yeah, sure.

Well, what it is, God, I've not thought of this for about 30 years, but what it is is it's incredibly exciting, isn't it? Because Sonic 2, if you ever saw Super Sonic at all, it was because, and it wasn't because you put the cheating, which was how I saw it. It was because you'd worked really hard, played through the game, and then been surprised by this burst of incredible power at the end.

Sonic 3 just goes, check this out, kids. Bang, there he is straight away. It was so exciting. Yeah. Well, because Super Sonic was so not forbidden, but I was never going to unlock Super Sonic in Sonic 2, and I don't think I ever have to this day, because I hate the special stages so much.

I must have done, but it wasn't a regular occurrence. But now there he is, bold as brass Running through Angel Island Whereupon he runs into Our dear friend Knuckles, the Echidna Who twats him Yeah, that's exactly what happens What an incredible intro

For like the new rival character This isn't just Sonic This is like Sonic at the peak of his power This is super Sonic And he just takes Knuckles just takes him out Instantly. He's just like, nah. Knuckles blasts out of the ground with his fist up, smacks into Supersonic, and he punches the chaos emeralds out of him.

And they scatter on the floor, and their perfect little, beautiful little rainbow-colored little jewels on the floor. They're lovely to look at. I love them so dearly. And then he nicks them. Yeah. And then he goes, ah, ha, ha. And he runs off. Like, he mugs, like, that's such an impact, and it creates such a friction with that character, because it is, like, Or you're at the peak of your power. You have just been humiliated. He's laughed at you.

He's laughed in your face, and then he's lit your shit. He laughed in his face in front of tails. Doubally embarrassing. And if you're just playing a Sonic alone, I don't think that he does do it in front of Tales, does he? Well, no, because you're playing a Sonic alone. Yeah, so this is important. He only ever does this in front of Tales

has a pointed mockery in order to shake the young fox's faith in his... Sorry, Sue, I'm going to absolutely bam you up here. I don't think that happened. Because doesn't Tales come in, like, fly down afterwards when the Angel Island title card appears? Oh, you're right. Well, yeah, because he was up in a tree watching the whole thing. Yeah.

That's why in Sonic Adventure, like, Tales his whole arc is about him getting over that trauma and going to therapy. You've seen his hero, like, humiliated. Yeah, so at this point, you're thinking, for the first time ever in a Sonic game, Right, I've got a motivation. Because previously the Sonic games, you press start and you're just standing there. Yeah. And you're like, oh, I guess I'll go right then. In this, you're going to go right.

And when I go right, I'm going to kill that guy. Yeah, no, you're right there. Yes, the implication. See, we've played this game so many times that there are certain things that we don't notice anymore. Like, to me, I don't notice Super Sonic there. And I don't go, oh, cool. But I did originally. And this one is like, oh, we'd better catch up with him.

You know, we know that you can't catch up with him. But that's what the game is inviting you to try and do, isn't it? Get after him. He's gone that way. You go that way. Get those KS. Enrolls back. So you run. You want to run.

Put it in terms of the internet to understand. Sonic 1 and 2 are hold right to win. And Sonic 3 is hold right to kill. But no, you do go right. And this is, we're in Angel Island Zone now. This is the first zone of the game. We're not going to run through the whole game step by step. but it's important to get this first bit done, I think.

This is the most important part of the game. And immediately, it's different. Yes. Immediately everything feels, I think, bigger, but at the same time, more composed. Like, it doesn't feel slapdash. It feels very precisely designed. Like, at the very beginning,

there's almost immediately, there's a quite easy-to-find secret route up to the top left that I believe gets you some speed shoes. Yes, yes. And it's sort of unlike any other Sonic game already in that respect, because while Sonic games do have their sort of secrets, they don't have much in the way of just specific ones. Does that even make sense?

You're more likely to stumble across them and you are to have to point to define them, and in this game, that's not true. Yes, like the thing that sets this game head and shoulders above its four bears and the competition, in my eyes, is the context and the storytelling. Like, that intro cutscene, that's passe now, you know,

every game has an intro cut scene. But at the time, that was pretty remarkable. And what it does is it establishes characters and it establishes a setting as well. And you take off and there's little nooks and crad, like not only is the whole game bigger, like literally the zones are taller and wider than they were before.

Not only that, but they are also better considered. there's also more stuff because like that that speed shoes if you run straight to the right after collecting the speed shoes at the top left you land pretty specifically on a platform that allows you to keep going right it's fantastic and like that that storytelling that silent storytelling like while you're still in the game while we're still holding the pad while the view is still the same that stuff silent storytelling carries on because like you're chasing down knuckles and you're you're rushing through this lush verdant forest. Yeah.

And that's when this orb shows up and everything changes. Yeah. And it's like you, this metallic orb comes down from the sky and it starts shooting fire and shooting napalm grenades everywhere. And you're trying to bash it. You're trying to like destroy it before it can, before it can, well, presumably destroy you. But what actually happens is like, while you're in. full control, the whole island just goes like both like an

emo's hairdo. It just goes up. It's incredible. It is an incredible bit of storytelling because the whole mood of the level shifts. This is no longer like a tropical paradise with ancient mysteries where you're trying to track down this guy who has wronged you.

This is now oh no, it is a race for survival as well on top of that. Like what an impactful intro like it really just gets you there and gets you pumped up to move in this... It might be worth noting as well

when the air quotes minibus comes down this napalm tank thing you have what appear to be dozens of others going by in the background yeah shooting off bombs as well but also the games kind of

put you on the back foot because you've never faced an enemy in a Sonic game prior to this that wasn't a state of robotic boss that took this many hits. Yes. Like, unless I'm wrong there, apart from the Silver Sonic,

or Meccasonic, or whatever he's called, I think that up to this point, every time you thought a boss it had been robotic. Yeah, it's quite unprecedented to have something without him in it, show up. Not only is this not visibly robotic, but also it's not actually the mid-boss. Yeah.

It's a scene, it's another cut scene, which is just laying it out right there. It's just like, yeah, kids, this game's got a story. that you don't just read about in the manual. It's amazing. To this day, I still forget that it's not the minibus. I always start attacking it and going like,

oh, I've got to get this, even though I know exactly what happens. And the fact that it doesn't sound like much, does it? But at the time, the fact that you walk into that encounter in one, whatever the word, not tile set, but in one design for the background for the level. And you walk out with another one. For the rest of the level, it's on fire.

That's what it's like from then on. I'd never seen that before. It's not like it was this impossible leap forward in tech or anything, but I'd never seen it before. But this also, sorry, shall I'm going to talk over you, but this also isn't the transition between Act 1 and Act 2. This just happens. Yeah.

This is just... This is what I was going to say, is that I believe there's some jiggery-pokery in the code that means that this is kind of the transition between Act 1 and Act 2. It's not, you still have to get to the ender level and destroy one of these things to end the act. But I think in the code, as far as the code concerned, is concerned, that is the transition and that's how it's able to completely alter the background tile set. And the reason I think that is because if you enter a special stage after this point and exit it, the music switches to act two. Yes, that's why that happens.

this is going to be maybe a little bit of a laboured comparison but please bear with me it's for me if you were to ask me like what I've not seen many films I'm not a big film buff right but if you're asked me what my favourite film is it's the first Star Wars it's a new hope and the reason for that for me personally is

like beyond just the incredible spectacle the really nice like the visual design of it which Sonic 3 also has ignoring further similarities of course beyond that it's the pacing of it it's not a complicated story by any stretch of the imagination

but it takes its time to kind of like establish threats and like you know like kind of to pull you in and to me that is Sonic 3's major strength is it's not a complicated story at all it is told very clearly and very simply just through like these silent characters kind of miming and chuckling away

but it is just the pacing of that entire first bit it's so perfectly designed to just draw you in you now have like a threat that you are now chasing down a threat this other joker who has knocked you out and stolen your stuff but also you are kind of being chased from behind

and you also have like a bigger picture threat which is Dr Robotnik who has now just set light to a massive jungle and he's obviously he's obviously got command of some greater force now because that the fact that all of those things went by in the background yes you know before he used to have to come out himself now he can send drones so he's more powerful than before exactly so it's this incredible like it sets up so much so efficiently while also pacing it perfectly to give you time to adjust to each new

revelation as it were revelation seems a bit strong each new like introduction of a new threat it is fantastic it gets me every time Angel Island is like this tour de force of storytelling

and it is of silent storytelling in video games and it's no even the best zone in the game for it not even close no it's not no I mean we'll get to it I think we all know what it is but we'll get to it the, uh, the, uh, the switch

the, uh, the switch between, the, uh, the switch between, on fire, not on fire and on fire. When you think about it, you spend a remarkably small amount of time in the initial stage. Enough for it to become familiar enough that it is a kind of a violation when it gets burned. Yeah.

I think. But then from that point on, as well as the fact that the leaves have all been burnt, you start going through hollowed out trees. Yeah. Like there's something, You get the impression, like, not just it's being burned, but that there's some kind of, something's going down.

Like, this place has been gutted, like, from its former self, rather than just set fire. It's almost like he's completely deforested it and then set it on fire just to make sure no one else can have it, in a sense. I mean, that's all in the head, you know. That's all just kind of what you gather from it. And we've already, we've already been introduced to how, it's so dense. It feels like it's such a... Do you know what?

Something I always appreciate is that... Now, correct if I'm wrong about any of this, this is going back a while because, like you, I don't play Sonic 1 and 2 as much as I do in Sonic 3, but Sonic 1

introduced the whole, like, speed aspect by giving you a loop. And you went round it, and you went, wow, cool, that was interesting. And then Sonic 2, I think the first loop in Sonic 2

is quickly followed by a second loop. So you're like, way, two of them. It's like, Sonic 2. Loop, loop. Brilliant. Even faster. And, you know, it's for you to test, your rev-up that you have now, and you can go, way, way, over two. Sonic 3, the first loop that you, actually there's two options for the first loop you can find. And that's just how good of a game it is. It's got different paths. But generally speaking, the one that I find myself going in the most, it's sort of underground.

It's like built into, there's like a cave ceiling just above it. And it kind of feels, and that just adds to this feeling of denseness. there are so many levels and layers to everything in this. I mean, the escalation is you've got two loops followed by you run around the inside of a tree. Tree, yeah. And it shows you it in cross-section. Yeah, and that's a completely new gimmick

that they've never used before and they never use again. As you run up it and you look to the left, you see the extra life that you missed, and now you can't get that's full. Yeah. Well, I think you can't go back for it, actually, but still. But still. Like, sorry if I'm jumping around a little here.

That's all right. Sonic goes it all the time. Yeah. Nice. It's the thing about Sonic's brand of platforming to me, this is why it irritates me so much, the whole hold rights to win narrative. Oh my God.

Do you know why it annoys me the most? It's because you guys aren't they having fun with it when you do that. I know. The thing that gets me about Sonic's brand of platforming, right, is that you're playing Super Mario, right? You come to a big, wide pit. in order to clear that pit you need to run

you need to get a running start to have the momentum to get the height and the distance to clear that pit right very simple like the most basic thing

about platformers right you guys get it Sonic is that principle taken to an extreme it is because you can get so much faster because there are so many more variables

to how fast you can go you can make jumps of incredibly diverse lengths and distances that can also be influenced by the terrain if you jump off an upward ramp you get mad height you get you go incredibly high you go ridiculously high and the thing that Sonic 3

Sonic 3 strength like the levels aren't just bigger and that's good because bigger levels are good although that is true they are also bigger and that is good because it allows you to use more of your speed to explore more of the level. By, like, modulating your speed,

you can get to loads of different paths. And they're not just, like, little closets or nooks and crannies. Like, oh, you go down there, you find an extra life. Oh, that's pretty cool. Then you walk back out. It's like entire new tunnel networks that you can find. Like, I'm still finding new things in that game to this day. Yeah.

And it works perfectly, hand-in-hand, perfect synergy between Sonic's mechanics and the level design. Like, I need you to understand. It's no just bigger. It is better in such a well developed and considered way. This was like an

innovative, hungry team competing with Nintendo now at the top of their bloody game. And it is a remarkable game through and through, because it maintains that quality pretty much throughout. I, yeah. I mean,

all I would add, and it's just more or less repeating what you've said, Shea, I find this game feels not only, as you say, the most expansive of the Sonic games, but it also feels the most bespoke in terms of every route has been crafted by someone. It feels handmade. Yeah. There's none of Sonic, and I'm not crapping on Sonic 2, because I think it's excellent, right? But you tell me the ultimate difference between any of the roots in like Emerald hill, really. Like, there's the underground one where you have the same obstacles come up a couple of times.

And then there's the area one where you go across, like, there may be a strips, or land on moving platforms that don't really go anywhere. That's not a lot. I love that game, but it just does not compare. There's not like Three and Knuckles where there are new things to see and experience no matter where you go. And this is the least complex level in the

game. Like, the thing is Dave said to me, like, the loop that he usually goes through first, I can, I picture it exactly. I have that in my, I know exactly where he is. He doesn't need to elaborate on that for me. And the thing is, it's like, exactly like you say, Stu, we're no, we're no crapping in Sonic 2. We're not saying, oh, Sonic 2's, this is why Sonic 3 is amazing and Sonic 2.

Because Sonic 3 only got where it was by standing on the shoulders of Sonic 2, you know? It's like absolutely, nothing but love and respect for Sonic 2. It's like Sonic 3 stands on the shoulders of giants. It's just that Sonic 2 is excellent. Sonic 3 is legendary for me. Yeah. Sonic 3 doesn't feel like it's lost anything of what it was when it first came out. You know, you can sort of revisit older games and go like, oh, okay, well, you know, like Sonic 2, for example.

Like, you know, when I first played that, it was Christmas Day and I couldn't have possibly been happier. Whereas now, yeah, I will go like, oh, and perhaps these platforms don't really get me anywhere meaningful, but perhaps there's been. Sonic 3, it's just as good as it ever was. And wherever you are, I mean, just taking the Angel Island zone, wherever you go, and there's loads of places you can go, none of them feel like the wrong way. You never go like, oh, I've gone this way. It's all really great.

In Angel Island, there's something else I want to highlight, which is The Secrets, and that's a difference, again, between, say, Sonic 2 and this. In Sonic 2 Now this is a slight generalisation But In Sonic 2 if you find a secret It's because you've gone through a false wall

Nothing wrong with that I love false walls I would marry them if I could Hell yeah In Sonic 3 let's take Let me have a think Now Angel Island in Act 1 Has a rock you can push aside

Break through the floor And drop down to find Two Ring televisions and Invincibility monitor it also has a section where you can bounce up really high and on first bounce it seems like nothing but if you bounce again you'll notice that a waterfall is cascading logs down it that you can then land on and if you climb to the very top of those logs you will find an extra life

it is the kind of secret that requires lateral thinking in fact come to think of it the first super ring that you find requires you to break through a wall which is not something that has ever happened before in Sonic and the way the level design suggests that as well with the springs to the right yeah yeah what a thing of beauty it's just what a way to make you as well what a way to make you in spindash form feel like a force of nature you know just smashing through huge rock walls that's how powerful you are like and the fact that they are rocks as well like there is

a visual indicator not just that you can destroy them but also of what they are unlike the ones in Green Hill Zone, which just kind of like, it's just a normal bit of wall that kind of falls away. It's very video gaming. I think, I mean, prior to that you've had those small grey rocks that you jump on and they break and then when you see those, you might think, hey, grey rocks, maybe I

can't break them, but I can't jump on them because they're kind of horizontal. Hang on a minute, I can go horizontally while in ball form by doing this. It's completely intuitive. You know, when I first played this game, having never played it before in my life, I did that because it's intuitive. it's oh it's oh it's talking about it now

isn't sonic three and knuckles a good game absolutely amazing I'm slightly annoyed that we're doing this so I can't go and play it I'm struck anew by just how magnificent it is like the other thing is like I was kind of like I keep finding new things with the things that you're saying and that I'm saying

it's like oh my God I forgot to mention this like the context is stronger because those are like actual rocks you know, they look like distinct from the rest of the wall and like Stu says they have been highlighted before with rocks, other grey rocks you can break, that

the thing about that is, is that context like that stronger context is fantastic in and of itself but it wouldn't mean, it wouldn't be nearly as good where the graphics not absolutely beautiful. Oh God, we've not even mentioned it, yeah. Gorgeous is that game.

So when the whole forest gets set on fire, there are heatwave effects and that's not something they could have done in engine or anything keep in mind this was a sprite-based game they would have had to have manually illustrated and animated

those heatwave effects and that's what they, like it would have been a huge amount of work for the artists to do that and they considered that important enough to do yeah You've got, speaking of not just visual gimmicks, which gimmicks always sounds bad, but I just mean it in this traditional, you know, stuff. It's not meant to be bad.

But you've got ziplines, you've got ziplines that are on fire and break in the middle of them, which is a hilarious gag. It's so good. Yeah, you've got your loops. You've got your pushable, breakable rocks. You've got the sections where you push switches to open up ancient ruins to create even more intrigue. You've got that bit where you climb up. It's pretty much a tree that doesn't appear anywhere else. They just made a special tree for you to climb later in the zone.

You've got the bits where the waterfalls are cascading across platforms that are only briefly visible. Yeah. You've got the collapsing bridges. you've got god what else have you got oh i i know a good one um you've got your elemental shields that we've neglected to mention so far oh yeah oh my god damn little shields not only do you get your fire shield which lets you do a enormous boost forwards by pressing the B button in the air or the any of the buttons because they're all the same um you've got the water shield which forms a bubble around you that lets you bounce and also breathe underwater indefinitely as long as you have it that's so clever

isn't it? Because that's to stop you from drowning, which everyone hates doing in Sonic. Nobody likes drowning. But again, it's also completely intuitive. You just think, oh, I've got the, of course I've got the electric, sorry, I've got the lightning, sorry, I've got to say it again. I've got the bubble shield, so I'm now, I have a permanent bubble. You've associated bubbles with that already. That's what you get to stop drowning. But also, while you're outside, which in the angel, the first one you get, in Angel Island Zone, you get it near some quite shallow water. And so you're immediately, both in and out of water, and you find out straight away that by pressing the button again in the air, you do a big boing. And that's a really cool, useful thing, whether there's any water around or not.

Another part that is very smart, teaching, in my opinion, is the bit where the stage just dumps you in some shallow water, and if you've got one of the shields, you lose it, because that teaches you. Yeah, if you have a fire shield, it will...

It goes out in water. Yeah, because of course it does. It's made a fire. And, of course, there's so many fiery obstacles in that stage that you're learning again that you can't be harmed by fire because you have a fire shield. While we're at it, perhaps we did mention it, but I don't think we did.

The lightning shield will draw rings towards you. And you can double jump with it as well. Yeah, and you can double... Yeah, God. Do you know what? I'd forgotten that because it's so normal to me that I just know these things of a head and it makes a good noise when you do it. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but if you jump in the water with the lightning shield

doesn't it kill anything on the screen? Well, it might kill anything in the water. Doesn't it discharge into the water? and kill the bad things. I'm very sure it does. I don't remember that. It's ringing a bell. It's ringing a bell. I think you may be right. It's quite a rare thing to happen, but I think I'm pretty sure it does do that. They thought of that.

That would be really cool if it did. Yeah. But I don't know if it does. Because I think the balancing between them is extraordinary as well. Because like, oh God, I think the balancing in the Sonic game is very good. What a wanker. Well, it is. It is.

Because the thing is that they each protect from one elemental hazard. The water shield, of course, prevents you from drowning, which is remarkably useful throughout Sonic 3. The fire shield protects you from any fire-based attacks, which is remarkably useful against all of the bosses who, being robotic robots, have boosters. So, like, it's supposed to be you can't quite hit them because they've got these, like, fire boosters, so you can't hit them in that spot, but you can with the fire shield, because you're immune to it. Then, you're supposed to be, you have the lightning barrier which protects against electricity which is a very very rare obstacle so as an added bonus it magnetises the rings so you don't have to run into them to collect them

which also makes perfect sense it's yeah oh beautiful worth it might be worth noting we'd get to it eventually anyway but the lightning shield comes into its own very very late in the death egg zone when there's a lot of places you can traverse with it yeah that you wouldn't be able that you'd have to really painstaking any platform over otherwise I do like the fact that the game is not especially concerned with being difficult. I mean, that's true of all of the Sonic games,

but, well, at least the ones so far. But in here, they're just kind of like, hey, what the hell have fun? There's so much to see. You're going to be playing these levels again anyway because you've missed loads of stuff. And something we haven't mentioned, of course, is the alternate routes depending on who you're playing as.

Or the alternate ways of traversing the stages, which means that, I mean, Knuckles in Act 2, I want to say, has a pretty much different act yeah like listeners we need you to understand that like we keep covering a bit of this and then I'm realizing oh no wait actually we've got to multiply that by three yeah it's okay it's not quite multiply that by three but it is like you will fight there is a bit towards the end of angel island act one where it there is a stone wall that you can't break as sonic and it's like okay what's that there Or, you know, like, you literally can't get past it.

Oh, it's just must be a weird detail. Didn't we wonder for months what that was? Didn't we try stuff wondering what it was? Yeah. The first time I played it was in Sonic Mega Collection, so, like, I... Oh, okay. Which had a really bizarre way of, like, unlocking Sonic 3 and Knuckles. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on.

I think the words you're looking for there is actually shit way of unlocking, yeah. Fair enough, yeah. It's, yeah, because you had to play Sonic 3 and Sonic and Sonic and Knuckles. like 20 times each. So you could just boot up, quit out, boot up, quit out another 18 times and you would unlock Sonic 3 in Knuckles. It's ridiculous.

But once you unlock Knuckles in Sonic 3, all of a sudden, of course, because he's like this wrecking ball, he's this really strong, destructive guy, and he just runs straight through them with his fists out. Yep. And you get another bit of the level,

which takes you into a completely unique act too. Yes. And by the way, Stu, in the time since you said it, I have tried, I have fired up Angel Island. And yes, with the electric shield, if you go in the water, badmicks in the water explode. Correct. Attention to detail. Yep. Now, I also want to mention that in Angel Island, one of the acts, I think, too, there is in fact a little bit that Only Tales can access as well.

Yeah. Where you fly up between, I want to say, two walls of... sort of perpendicular walls of spikes. Yeah. It's not a huge amount, but it's there. And it's there. So if you're playing as tails or you have tails and you think, I want to carry Sonic up there,

they thought of that too. Yeah. So what they've essentially, what they've done? Well, that's new. Tails couldn't carry Sonic before. Now he can. So now you can fly. He could fly before, but not under your control,

only when the computer was playing as him. And he wasn't able to carry you either. Yeah. So if you've got a second. controller, you can fly, and bend a younger brother to play his tails, you can fly Sonic up to different places. Brilliant!

Now, what they've done here is they've created, I don't know if it is exactly 14, but let's say 14, large, unique stages that each work in three different movesets

without really compromising. No. That's quite impressive. It's impressive, don't you think? It's so impressive that I've never really thought about it like that before, because it just feels normal. When you play it, you play as knuckles. You don't feel like, oh, I can't do this because I'm knuckles,

or I can't get there. You feel powerful, whoever you are. If they'm ever going to get a chance to say absolutely mad things on a podcast, it's going to be this one. So, correct me if you think I'm wrong, or at least barking up the wrong sort of tree here. but do you think that that in any way came out of Sonic CD having multiple different types of each stage? Oh.

Because if you think about it, having alternate routes through the different stages. Yeah, yeah. For Sonic, or at least for different types of stages, if you think about it, they kind of merged the three stages into just one, but had three different ways to move through it. Yeah, that makes sense. So I wonder if there's a lineage there. in terms of how can we bring this concept into the upcoming game without it being quite so, I guess, alienating? Well, it's certainly a continuity of thinking,

isn't it? Especially since a lot of that stuff was going to have... That was going to be in Sonic 2, wasn't it, before they realised they couldn't. I think that there's a lot of speculation about that. I'm not sure what the actual truth is, though. Well, the story goes that after Sonic 1, Sonic Team essentially split into 2,

there was the one that was there was the group that stayed in Japan under the supervision of I believe it was now to Oshima the art guy

who designed Sonic in the first place and they went on to make Sonic CD and it was the main group under Yuji Naka him and a lot of other Japanese staff

he was feeling very dissatisfied with his position at Sega and Japan so He went across to America, and he got, like, he basically got his own team filled with Japanese staff in America at the STI, which of course stands for sexually transmitted infection. I can't resist, sorry, the Sega Technical Institute. And they went on to create Sonic 2 and then off the back of that Sonic 3.

So if there was like a lineage there, it would have been, I think, that the American staff, would have been inspired by Sonic 3D, inspired by Sonic CD, rather than it being a direct continuation of what they're trying to do, if that makes sense? Right, right. Just flow you in the idea, really. I should probably say at this point that I think Eugene Nakam might actually not have been convicted, so I feel like I should say I take it back. He is not a convicted criminal.

And the worst thing is, I've had to make this same apology on a previous episode. Oh, it's been formally indicted. Is that convicted? formally indicted Junaka Yeah formally indicted for insider trading offences

Indicts into dreams Is that a thing So of them into dreams To into nightmares It's always like Oh dear More like nights into prison Yeah

Let's chill I don't know. also is to say about Angel Lyons. I mean, there is obviously plenty. We haven't even talked about the boss yet, so I guess we should talk about the boss. Prior to the boss, and I'm going to be controversial now, prior to the boss is the only part of the level

which I wish wasn't there when I replay it, and it's only about 10 seconds long. Which bit's that? Is that the wiggly bit? You know, it's the bit where you get chased by the Flying Battery. Yeah, I think it's a flying battery. Now, I like that. I like it

a lot. It's really cool. But on replays, I would like to be able to just skip it because all you do is hold right to win. Yeah. You know what's really annoying? Isn't Sonic Origins? They messed it up so you have to actually dodge the bombs. Oh no! Well it's like the first time

through it's this really cool set piece that also foreshadows one of the later levels in the game is literally Sonic running down this big straight path being bombed by... Carpet bombed yeah. While this enormous flying machine

Yeah and it goes Oh yeah, it blows your speakers out And it's dropping bombs behind them And all you need to do to outrun it Is literally just hold right It's cool, it's really, really cool Watch Tails die over and over and over Yeah, oh yeah, yeah

By the way, by the way, shout out to whoever animated the explosion That comes off those bombs landing, it's one of the best I've ever seen Mm-hmm Oh, so like, and then While you're still at full tilt The flying battery goes away,

you're still going at full tilt, you're still pegging it because you're like, oh, Jesus, what if it comes back? And that's when you see through the trees in the background. It's so good. Dr. Robotnik. Yeah. And then not only that, and then you don't just like get to the boss arena

and then he just flies in after you. He bursts out through the waterfall behind you. Yeah. It is... Yeah, and then he quite literally burns bridges. Yes. Oh, it's well good. And then you die immediately, if you're me,

because you're trying to be fancy and trying to hit him. Yeah, you try and get your hair. Because you've got your fire shield, so you try and... If you've got a fire shield, if you're very good, you can jump at just the right time. Hit him four times and then fire shield to the side again. But it's really fun to do. If you time it perfectly, you can actually get all eight hits in there,

and then the boss ends before it's even begun. That's amazing. It is... Like, the boss is in Sonic. This is the other thing that every... But this is the main reason I don't like going back to Sonic Mania too often. Yeah, I was about to make this point as well. You should make it because you're more Scottish

than I am. Okay, I think that's a good reason. The thing about Sonic Mania's bosses is that they are, they have been thought through, like, to the endth degree. It's like, okay, so here is a scenario, here is the unique thing the player needs to do. Here is kind of like the cinematic aspect to it. You know, and I hate to disparage that effort. I like Sonic Mania a heck of a lot. I'll disparage it. But the thing is, for me, is that what the strength of Sonic's bosses is that they were always a bit knock-about. It was like a brash, cathartic

way to end the level. The bosses are your reward for finishing a level. Yeah, and it's like... Which is that you get to twat Dr. Robotic in the face over and over again with very little pushback. If you manipulate Sonic's physics well enough, you can like bounce on him like eight times in quick succession and basically end the boss right there and then.

Didn't that feel good when you got the balance right and you were just at the top bumping him on the head? it's so good and the elemental shields in sonic three add a layer of strategy to that yeah you're you're yeah you know what's coming you can choose the best shield for the job ahead of time and it's just it's so good and it feels so good because it's just dr robotnik appears and you're like right you fanny boss boom boom boom dude yeah he's right he's right he's right He is right. But that's what I...

No, do you know, no, he's right. Because a lot of buses in almost every game, the bus, the point of the boss is like, try and do this. You'll find it hard. You'll find it frustrating. But when you get through it, you'll be like, fee you. Not Sonic 3. Not all the other Sonic games, really. Like, you just, here he is.

Bounce around on him. Get him. Go on. Get him. It'll be fun. I'll tell you what it makes me think of. And this is the most obtuse comparison imaginable, I think. Uh-huh. Is it reminds me a little bit of...

when you've played Arkham City and you've done all the riddle of the puzzles and you finally get to just beat the shit out of the riddler. I did not persevere enough to get to that bit. Oh, I did, and it does. Yeah. You can just basically, unless I'm misremembering it, you can more or less unindruptedly beat the crap out of him. It is essentially a reward at the end of it.

Yeah. And, I mean, the thing is Robotnik is a bit of a... Okay, no, you know what? Here's the thing. Robotnik's a big, fat loser. So he should be beaten by Sonic, who is cool. Yeah. Right? Robotnik shouldn't win against Sonic.

I mean, have you seen the Sonic cartoon? He's an idiot. Yeah. That's why Satay-M is so rubbish, because they made Robotic actually scary. He's not scary. He's a big loser. Well, this is the thing, like, for me, as Dr. Robotnik, is at his best when he is walking a very fine line between, like, kind of being this absolutely.

comical buffoon and also being threatening and not threatening in a genuine like oh man i'm actually intimidated or frightened of this man threatening in it he introduces stakes and drama for our heroes to go and sort out and like that's what he does in sonic three because up until this point up until you see like him distantly like shadowed in the background flying between the like the trees whizzing past, you're seeing him through the trees in the background. He hasn't made an appearance yet. Like, the first boss you've seen hasn't been him, which is a first for the series. Maybe this is what the rest of the game is like. And then he's making that appearance and it's like, is that him? Is that him in the background? Oh, is that like, is this what's going to

happen? And then he bursts through the waterfall at yet. And it's like, what a cinematic moment. And again, like, I'm not saying tense isn't genuinely stressful. But what are like a tense little moment that is relieved with that brash cathartic knockabout beat him up and his wee expressions grimacing at you brilliant

I think that this game through visual storytelling once again and I'm going to be skipping ahead a bit if that's okay sure yeah does portray Robotnik somewhat evolving as a villain

into a more threatening villain because in this game the gloves the gloves kind of come off at one point I mean you're kind of clued in I think when you fight the launch base zone boss

and he fights you with the squeeze tag machine I think it's called because that's the most visceral machine he's ever had in which he just literally grabs you and just body slams you into the ground but then of course skipping way ahead when you find the buried

death egg and it actually activates and nukes a zone while you're standing in it you'll realize then and there, you're like, ah, we may not be in, uh, we may not be in adventures anymore. I think we might be in sat a m now. Well, he is properly relentless. Like, not only is he kind of pulling out the stops so far as like manipulating somebody else goes. Yeah. But also every single one, like everything he is, all of his activities on the island, it is a full on invasion. It is a full on like,

I am going to win this or I am going to destroy everything. Like, there's no reason for him to burn the forest down except to possibly maybe kill Sonic. Yeah. And he is pulling out all the stops and there are multiple times. I don't, again, what you were saying about the launch base, the squeeze tag machine is like the third in a sequence of like four bosses. Yes, it is. Yeah. He's not fucking around.

He's just like, right, okay, that didn't work. What about this? Bam, bam. Okay, that didn't work, but what about this one? Yeah, I don't want to say too much, and I'm the one who instigated, I know, but I don't want to say too much about it, because we are obviously going to get there at some point, because I'm attentive of the fact that we might only get through one in this podcast, and I could not be more delighted by that.

This is the kind of detail I have sought in my sonic analysis. But we need to talk about, obviously, the very end. of this zone. This is continuing the theme, which is once you have defeated this not very difficult boss, by design, not very difficult, you are then,

you then run, you destroy the flying, what's it called, the egg capsule, whatever it's called, which has your friends in it, as in the previous games, is it this time, it's not just in the middle of the screen, it's flying above you. Which is another fun little, you know, addition. Then you run to the right in cutscene mode and you find yourself standing on a bridge

where you get your first zone transition. Now this is brand new as well. Yeah. Previous Sonic Zones ended with a fade to black, I believe. Yeah. Like a not like a game, like a normal game. Yeah. And then you would just appear in the next area regardless. In this zone, in this game, they go out of their way to make it clear, even if it's a little bit contrived. Yeah. how you went from this place to the next. Yeah, they create the, with little cutscenes at the end of each level leading into the next one, they create, oh, another thing to mention is that Act 2 of each zone, is it just a continuation in this game?

Oh God, we didn't even mention that. No, you just carry on, it just goes, all right, now it's Act 2, and it doesn't put you anywhere new. You just carry on, and now you're in Act 2. Look, this is what it says about this game is we have gone into the most disgusting detail about this. And there's, we've missed so much stuff. Yeah, we still keep thinking of stuff, yeah. But between the actual, like, different zones, there are these little cutscenes which just create the feeling

that what you are in is a place rather than a game, which I've always said is actually, I think that's what sets Sonic apart from games like Mario. You know, Mario feels like assault causes. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, but no, never more than this one game. And perhaps I don't think. ever again as much as they said. No, they tried to do it in Sonic Mania, but I think they had to

patch some of them in eventually. But God, the sense, yeah, the sense of continuity massively adds to the storytelling. Yeah. Yeah. Because just going from one place to another counts as part of a story. Yeah, yeah. And in most games, you didn't even get that. No. And so it'll be things like, generally speaking, correct me if I'm misremembering here, but usually it's that Knuckles shows up at the end of the level goes t-he-he-he and does something that makes you be in the next level. I think that happens I think it's a couple of times.

A couple of times. It's not as many times as I'm remembering is it? No, it's actually not. That starts to happen in the levels themselves. He introduces a new obstacle. Oh yeah. Yeah. But it's, well, that's exactly what happens here is you're on the bridge. You have nowhere else to go, okay, Stumper, where do you go from

here? And then Knuckles appears in the ledge above you, sniggers at you, stamps down on a switch and the bridge comes out from under you so twice in one zone this guy has gotten the better of you He's got to drop on you He's plopped you down into a sewer

Yeah No yeah I mean It's gone from insult to injury really hasn't it Yeah and like Now you're really mad Now you're like right okay I'm going to sort this guy out Yeah I'm gonna give him I'm gonna even what for

But you think that you've been dropped into a sewer And you think oh this is bad And then two things happen. One, as you fall down the big waterfall into the new level, one, it looks lovely, and you're like, oh, hello. And two, the music kicks off and you're like, oh, hello, because it's one of the grueviest best tunes of Mega Drives ever played. I'm just going to say it, yeah, straight up, Hydra City, probably my favourite tune. Yeah, yeah, probably. But I'd have to give it to Act 2 mix.

Is that a, do you think that's a controversial opinion? You are allowed, do you know what? I think mine, it seems to be. You always feel like your own opinion is the controversial one because you don't like pushback. But I have had a lot of pushback from saying that the first level is the best one. Now, the first level is amazing with this kind of new jack swing kind of thing going on, right? But the second level, less we forget, it has the bit that goes,

do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, and it keeps going and going and going and building and building into that it's like do you write that you know what I always I always forget because I just think that the initial act one

he's gruvier than then I forget how good it gets you're right Dave Dave Dave but after it's done that bit it keeps going until it's going

and then it starts again even that bit in that too Here's, I'm, I'm, I am, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm agnostic, all of it from, you're agnostic, I'm agnostic, yeah, I love that whole level. The thing about that, because, I, I, I agree with Dave in so far as, like, the, the, the, bea-ba-da-da-da-da-da, it's like a really funky, great, upbeat way to introduce a zone. But, um, in the second art, act, like, the kind of the stumbling, kind of, like, um, descending fill on the tombs and everything, like with the snare played on the offbeat and everything

and then the wall comes in to try and crush you it's so perfect oh by the way this goes to listeners and to you too do watch and do sit and go through and watch the videos you can find on YouTube right now where someone has basically got all of the separate channels of all of the tunes but it's the Hydro City ones

that I think are the best on oscilloscope view so you can watch Those are outstanding, yeah. And whoever it is has, like, switched off and on and built up different channels in quite an artful way. So that by the end, you are up out of your seat, arms in the air, dancing to how good this music is. And you get to see the intricacies of it inside out. And it's so much more than I thought was in there when you see it laid out in front of you. That's my da.

My dad, it's got a heart hang, somebody's stupid. Yes. I'm coming to get you here. A bit of limi there, sorry. God, that's probably my favorite limby bit ever. So good. I'm coming to get you. I'm best here, boss, and I'm better so much.

It's so perfectly bleak and yet amazingly funny at the same time. I was so annoyed. I was so annoyed, right? I tried so hard, poking around maps of Scotland on Google Image Search, trying to find what street it was that he goes around saying, she's turned the winds against us, yeah. Because I wanted to post a picture of that same street, but without it being a screenshot from that sketch, and do hashtag liminal spaces. And then that whole thing came and went, and I never found out where it was, and I'd never got to do it. I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, you should be.

It's really sad It's really sad So yeah what we're talking about oh yeah So Hydro City Zone We've talked about the transition From the previous stage But I don't think we've talked about the fact that it means that you enter this stage in a way that you've never entered any Sonic stage before. Yeah.

Which is in free fall as the rest of the state, as the ceiling collapses around you. And he has a unique sprite for this. It's not just as like his idol pose. No, no, no. You know, what we didn't mention is that the Sonic Sprites have been redrawn in this game. I think I did mention that. Oh, we did mention that. Sorry, sorry.

Okay. Well, I didn't really listen to you guys. I just like to hear my own. This is another point of controversy. I think whenever I say that this is by far the best sprite of Sonic, a lot of people will go, no, come on. Sonic 2 is better, or Sonic 1 or whatever it is they prefer. But, God, I love it.

It's so round and squishy, squashy, and he looks great. There's two things. Number one, it's like, when people say that the, listen, if he's preferred a Sonic 1 and 2 sprites, more power to you, absolutely. But the thing about the Sonic 3 sprite for me is that what they always do is they always blow them all up and examine them closely side by side. And it's like, that's not how it's viewed.

It's viewed very small, like, on what it's supposed to be a bloody CRT screen. And so, yes, sure, like, maybe one leg is thicker than the other, and it looks weird when it's right up in your face. But on screen, it gives him a little bit of perspective. And, like, there's, he's very rotund. He's very nice and kind of, like, pudgy. The thing that always gets me with my sonic designs, and the reason I prefer Sonic 3 to Sonic 1 and 2, is if his cheek is right up against his eye, that's good for me. It's when his eye and his cheek are kind of like separated at the edge,

that it looks a little bit like, I don't want to say like amateur to me, but it looks a little bit like incomplete. Because that's what I like about him so much, is that his cheeks and his eyes are so defined. Totally a preference thing. I'm not saying, like, I'm not like trying to be holier than thou about it. No, no, no, be holier than thou. This is to own it, mate.

Oh, right, okay. These people are cratinous. Don't apologize to you. Sorry, mate. You prefer Sonic one? Sorry, which one of us own retro notes here? Oh, beautiful. Now, Hydro City,

probably worth putting into some context. This is an interesting zone for me, not only because I love it. I don't think it's my favourite zone. It is my favorite tune, I think. But it's not my favorite zone. Now, the thing that's fascinates me so much about this zone is it takes an established Sonic thing, theme,

which is the water level, and makes it fast-paced and dynamic, which is not what the water levels have been previously. No, that's the thing. I never thought of that. Famously, in, like, Sonic 1, whenever you get a water level, everyone hates it. It's like, it's so slow and sluggish.

Whereas in Sonic 3, if I want to feel fast, If that's what I'm here for playing today, I'm going to Hydro City. Yeah. You... It's so fast. I mean... It's so fast that you can get so fast that you run on the surface membrane of the water. Oh, I forgot about that.

Because you're so fast. Like, that's not been done in Sonic before, I believe, right? This is the first thing we see it. No, Sonic 2 on the master system, like you skim on the water if you're moving quickly. Okay. But nobody knows that except me, because only I play it next. Yeah, yeah. I described it as a sewer earlier, and I think it literally is, but that calls to mind just, like, plodding around, like, same-a-looking corridors and everything. No, no, this is a roller coaster. Sewer-level ding. Sorry, sorry. Like, this is a roller coaster. I would love to be a poo down here.

Oh, no, no, no. That's just the fascinating thing, show. That sounded so condescending it wasn't meant to. It's not a roller coaster. It's a water park. Yeah! You're absolutely right. The imagery is flumes. Yeah. It is water slides. You are at Splash Mountain.

Take me, take me, take me, take me now. Yeah. There are, in this level, there are... About Splashmore, that's it. In this level, there are big, big water slides, which you, like, a thing grabs you and kind of speeds you up and lets you go. And you know, because you've been playing Sonic for a while now, that you need to hold down, get into a roll

and you can get such speed up that it's just like I'm just I'm remembering it now how fast it is and my heart race is going up it's incredible you the thing with this level

is now you could do this in aquatic ruin as well if you don't want to go in the water or you don't want to spend any amount of time in the water that could see you drown I'm reasonably certain you can mitigate almost all of it

by flying with tails oh really because from the start of the level if you fall to the left if you hold left as you fall in you'll land on a platform with a super ring and from there you can fly to the right and you're just up in the air

and you're not doing that whole tunnel bit at all there is so many routes to this game I might be wrong in saying you can mitigate all of it but I'm reasonably certain that 90% of the time if you're underwater you'll be going at high speed up a ramp yes this is what they seem to have been very careful to do is make it so that all the time spent in the water is A, entirely of your volition

because they always give you an easy way out and B, a lot of the time it's pretty fun being underwater. There are fun bits. The only exception being the bit where you're stuck on those going roundy things with fish nibbling at you. I don't like those bits. You know the going roundy things are like conveyor belts. You shimmy along under them like.

Oh no, no, no. I know the bit you're talking about, bubble shield bounce in the bad neck you get straight out of it right that's the thing now that's the other thing is that yeah that's another way

of mitigating all of the underwaterness there's a lot of bubble shields in this level and there's that really go on no sorry possibly interestingly possibly not because of the fact that when you're

underwater you don't move very well to the left or right only vertically the water sections that you are likely to have to play through almost all kind of vertically either going up or down.

Yeah. And then it'll propel you into a tunnel that doesn't matter anyway because your speed is kind of mid-controlled by the tunnel. Usually there's a spring that will propel you along as well if you're in a horizontal plane. Yeah. There are loads and loads and loads of places to get more air. They really did not skimp on them.

I know intellectually that it is true that Sonic walks slower left and right in the water. I can't conjure in my mind an image of ever doing that in Hydro City's eyes. It must be so, so... It's vanishingly, real, an occurrence. And, God, I just don't know what else to say about it. It's just, there is so much I could start from. You know what I mean? Like, the water itself, I mean, the way that this turns the water level on its head is just, like, outstanding.

Like, it could not be, I don't like, it's not subversive, because that's not the word to use. But the fact is, they do identify what makes those levels a drag and they go, no, fuck that. We're just not going to do that. Yeah. Like, we're just going to do fun stuff this time. We're going to have water sliders, propel you out, you start out of the water, go underwater, end up again and going across the water, back into the water again, back up, shooting up into the sky, but not just into the sky, into, through multiple stories of the level. Yeah. Getting teasing glimpses on the left and right of places that you've never seen before that you could have gone.

that you could have gone. That bit where you've shot up a ramp so high you go up multiple stories and then you come down again and you're like, I know where I'm going to land because there's a little telemonitor. And if you just bounce off it and burst it, you're straight back up again, isn't you? It's so good, yeah. But then, of course, if you choose not to do that

and you choose to explore those unusual moving platforms that you saw, you'll find a super ring there. Yep. Yeah, like, this is like Sonic's physics are such that if you land on top of a badneck you will return to the same height you are at you will turn to the crest of your jump which is an incredible way to extend your height and distance in the air and there are so many opportunities in hydro city zone to absolutely rocket like from the bottom of the level straight to the top back down to the bottom and straight back up and this incredible face. And always fair and square, always fair and square, always with the physics, always with a ramp or hitting a TV monitor because you fell on it so far. Never just a little script. And absolutely never into a wall of spikes or a bottomless pit.

There are no bottomless pits on this stage if memory serves. The only instant death is in Act 2 and that's with that wall, which is the first real challenging part of the game. Is that fair to say? I think so, yeah. Because when I was a kid, that place was a nightmare. Like I had real trouble with that because it really does stress you out. this day, I get quite stressed up by that, even though I know I can do it. Yeah, same.

It's like the climb and chemical plan is that it's more, I would say it's more, I would say it's more panic-inducing than it is really, like, technically difficult. I agreed, yes, absolutely. If you keep your cool, that, like, that bit is fine.

Yeah, it's fine. Agreed. Totally agree. Yeah. God, I mean, Hydro City is just a... Let me think about this for a second. might be my favorite. I can't think of one I like more right now. I mean, Ice Cap is good, but it's not Hydro City. Again, I need to re-clify what is happening here.

We are talking about a water level in a Sonic game. Stu has just said that's possibly my favorite in Sonic 3, and we are sat here like, yeah, absolutely, that is fair. That's how good it is. Yeah. I mean, it's the whole package of, like, interesting visuals, clean visuals as well but if you do stop and look at them

as with all of these games which I by the way I strongly recommend that you and this council Sonic 2 as well and one stop and just look at those backgrounds you're running past sometimes because they are good looking like the background on Casino Night

and Sonic 2 is wild shit to me like somebody drew that oh God yeah I know it's wild but Hydro City if you look in the background here Now, am I wrong in saying that there's a little bit of foreshadowing going on with the ruins and the murals and things? Am I wrong about that? I think you're right.

I mean, it could just be that they went, what do we put here? What have we already got in the Sprite set? Okay, that. But still. It's a bit. It's sort of, I mean, as we've said, it's a, it's a, think of the Labyrinth zone from Sonic 1. Yeah. Which is ancient ruins as well.

And it starts, or at least opens, there's that one bit in Labyrinth where you're permanently sliding until you interrupt the slide and solve a little puzzle. Yeah. And it feels like this game in a sense kind of went like, hey, you know that bit where you were sliding on a water slide? That was fun. Let's really lead into that. So you end up with these utterly memorable and brilliant visuals as well on those

blue water, underwater slides that snake around and then propel you up into, oh, it's just so good, isn't it? I'm sorry. I don't know what to say. The fact that the water slides have cascading water coming from above, like it's all in universe. It's not just some bullshit that's floating there. It's just some, it's all part of the construction. It all feels very organic, despite the fact that it's obviously floating platforms and floating slides.

It's the thing, and God, this is absolute turbo nerdery. That's what we're here for. But somebody had to have built this place. Like Sonic, the first zone, Angel Island is very natural. You know, it could just be an island. Hydro City suggests civilisation, and that is fleshed out more in the very next zone. Yes. Which, of course, we're not talking about just now.

Well, I, no, though I have a, just as only just occurred to me, do you think that when Knuckles was springing up and twatting Sonic in his stupid, ugly face at the beginning of Angel Island? Do you think he came up from Hydro City? Do you think it was zooming around in what SDC called the zoom tubes? Is that Hydro City? Were they called Zoom tubes? Yeah, they were. They were a network all over the island, though.

But do you think they were inspired by the Hydro City slides and pipes? I think they were, because there's a few bits like that in Sonic 3, like, with the little, like, you know, the little, like, spinny tubes before the flying battery at the end of Angel Island. but also, yeah, there's a lot of stuff like that in Hydro City. Like, there's a bit underwater where you're being pushed along by the current and you have to stop and hold on to pipes. The bars, the horizontal part, the sort of vertical pipes, yeah. Yeah, to shimmy up and down them to avoid spikes. It's, again, like Dave says, this is all done using the mechanics.

It's all in your control. It's never like a scripted set piece. It's all a slightly different variation on the theme of going, fast, and it's fun as hell. There isn't a moment of it that isn't exciting. The thing that I love as well is even when you're done doing that, when you burst out from the floor of the wall, it sends bricks flying everywhere. It's like you're smashing this place to pieces. Yeah. You know, what we haven't talked about at all, even for Angel Island, because we've just been so enthused by so much other stuff, is we haven't talked about the bad knicks.

Oh? We haven't talked about them. Those little guys. I have a little theory here. Do you think the badnicks in Sonic 3 and Knuckles might be the weak link compared to the other games? Go on. Because while this is my favorite Sonic game by some distance, I think some of the badnicks are kind of lame.

Like the rhino bots just a kind of lame version of the motorbug to me. I'll give you that. They're not as iconic as they were in Sonic. The monkey in the tree is basically just coconuts again. Yeah. Yeah, okay. So I wonder if my... And in Hydro City, you've got this thing called Tabibus Spike,

and all it does is fire a spike that's pretty much not going to hit you and then drive away. I like him, though. Oh, he is funny. No, I'm not saying they're horrible. It's just that I wonder if they might be something that we could reasonably consider a step down. I'll tell you what's a good badnik that is a step up. And that is the badnik that's disguised as some spikes.

Oh, God, yes, that's genius. I retract my entire point. They're good. Because, so you think there's spikes, but it's actually a badnik. And it doesn't hurt you to go on in top of it. It's a spring. And it makes a twangy sound, it's great. And it goes dwing like a spring.

But if you get in with your little Insta shield that you've got, by the way, listeners, you can just pop him. And it's really fun if you get that angle just right, because you have to be good at the game to do that. I just, I wonder if the fact that the levels are so much bigger and you're so much more capable means that the enemies naturally do feel a little bit more perfunctory. Maybe. I haven't felt this, though.

I like him. But I do agree that there's no crab meat, there's no buzz bummer. Like, I know the Sonic 1 Badnicks, like little guys I know. The Sonic 2 Badnicks to a lesser extent, but still they're quite iconic. And then this, yeah, there's just a load of different robots, isn't there? Yeah, I agree. I wonder if it's maybe, like, to what extent it's like fatigue or like, okay, we've seen Badnicks before. But yeah, absolutely. I will absolutely agree that, Like, for example, Motobug is really iconic and RinoBot is just a bit eh.

Well, he looks smaller and less impressive to me. Like, I mean, there are some badniks that I like in this game. I just, I do wonder if it's something that could be considered a absolute cast iron less good than Slight 2 thing, because there's so few of them to go around, you know? But then again, even Sionic 2, I think, is a step down from Sonic 1 in terms of Badnix. Well, the thing is

I agree with that, yeah. There's a lot of bad necks in Sonic 1 and 2 that I find just annoying to deal with. Like, Caterkiller is, I think, a great idea that just sometimes doesn't work for me. I'm fairly sure there have been times that I have just come at it from the front. Yeah.

Any, like, not even jumping, just in a ball. And the hit registration's gone a little bit wonky so it's like fall into pieces and I take a hit and it just feels but like, ugh, okay. I certainly think there's a strong case could be made that the Bad Nix and Sonic 3 visually are less distinct, less iconic

but I think mechanically they are a very nice balance between being fun to engage with. I have a theory about this. I have a theory actually that just pops into my head about this. Now while as Sonic becomes more capable the Bad Nix become less of a threat because in two, like, you gain the power to spin dash, which means that if you're horizontal,

you can still kill badniks. And the way that they mitigate that is they make the badniks more annoying. So you've got the one on Casino Night, for example, which I still don't really understand reliably how to kill. You've got the flasher badnicks that will, at turns, just be invincible. Yeah. And will hurt you. Sonic 3, it feels like they kind of went,

well, everyone doesn't have been planning through these anyway. So it doesn't really matter if they are So why don't we just make them things That you can bop through and get some points Because any enemy in this game Just real quick, sorry Any enemy in this game that has a state that can hurt you Will never be in that state when you first encounter it

Unless you're very, very unlucky Oh, that's interesting Because like the balloon spike enemies They're always in the air And you're not hugely likely to be at a point Where you're flying towards one Without having some idea of what they are and what they do.

Like, the ones in Lava Reef, the mole enemy things, the rock enemy things, they will not explode for a few seconds. You'll always have time to get away from them. So to me, it feels like a conscious decision. Like, yeah, they're kind of pushovers, but also the way we mitigated it in the previous game is kind of unfair. Well, I think this is part of that balance that we've talked about already with Dr. Robotnik, where, like, the badniks in this game are just three.

fun to bop through. Whereas, you know, it's like we're talking about with Robotnik, you know, previously some of the bosses could be a bit of a pain in the ass, maybe sometimes. But by now, it is just fun to fight him always. And that's true with the robots. Like, there are robots in the Metropolis zone, for example, that we're still traumatized by now because of how unfair and annoying them. And there's no such thing in this game, really. There's maybe a couple that will make you go like, oh, no, one of these. but generally speaking, you're Sonic, you're here to bop, and it's fun and it feels good. Honestly, I'm trying, I'm really trying to think of a badnik, a standard badnik in one of the main zones.

That when I see them, I go, this guy. And I'm really struggling to think of what. Do you know what? Yeah, I said that because I assume there were, but I can't think of any either. The scorpions in Sandopolis, but even then you can get them by spin-dashing them. Yeah. Well, but that's the balance, isn't it? Yeah.

To see a guy and go like, oh, he's got a thing that's going to get me, but I'm cleverer. I'm good at Sonic. Got him. Man, honestly. I guess I'll just say the little nibbly fish. I hadn't really thought about this until just now, and my appreciation with this game is just going up and up. Yeah. Like, it has been years since I started playing this game.

Yeah. And every time I go back to it, there's something new to appreciate. Yeah. Something new. And it's gotten to the point where a lot of the old stuff that wow to me. at the beginning is now normal and then I go back and I think about that and you and I'm like, God, how amazing

was that? And it's got all this new stuff. Come on! Outside of the gimmicks of Hydro City, I think we've covered those quite extensively now. Should we talk about the bosses? No. Yes.

No, I just, fuck it. Leave it, just forget it. No, I mean, because the first, the mini-boss on Act 1 is incredibly memorable. Yes, yeah. For a lot of people, which I believe is straight up called Robotic's washing machine. Am I wrong there?

Is it? It's been dry, sort of. Yeah, he is what it is sort of. you're in a sort of basin of water. Yeah. And this thing comes down with these kind of, I want to call them, parabolas going around it? Is that a thing? Yes.

And then it will fly around. I don't know if it's this thing, but it's a thing. It will fly, okay, well, that's all I need to know. It will fly around, swoop through the water, which you can then jump over it to dodge it. Yeah. And it will land on a pole in the middle of the stage and start spinning it, which then spins you around in a sort of centrifuge. Yeah. Oh my, I've just found its name.

It's not Robotnik's washing machine. It's somehow even better. Yeah. It's called The Big Shaker. Perfect. I honestly think I might have had a guide when I was a kid that called it Robotnik's washing machine. Because you know how these things kind of latch onto them. Yeah.

But anyway, so that's all it does. And it's quite an easy boss. It's just it's quite memorable. I mean, the main danger is the fact that you're stuck underwater. And if you're not lucky with your timing, if you're a little bit foolish, Once it traps you in the spin cycle You have no way of getting out of the water You could actually drown

Yes, that boss, if you don't know what to do That boss is actually quite annoying But it's not that hard to find out what to do You'll only die to that boss once, I would say Unless you're really shit Sorry, I've got a very important update here It's called Dr. Robotnik's Whirlpool machine In Sonic the comic

That's why, because a whirlpool is a washing machine brand That's what you're thinking of You know what, I'm going to have to look at my Sonic 3 official play guide, except I think I sold it to one of you Sonic Saddows. I'm looking at a plus Sonic right now. I haven't got a leg to stand on. Unlike Sonic, who has really fast, good legs to run on.

He's got a good pair of legs on them, that lad. Can I talk about the glitch that I really love here on Sonic 3, where if you are just about to drown, wait until the music cuts out, and then exit the water, it changes to the Sonic and Knuckles music. Oh, I don't realize. Yeah, you know the Sonic 3 minibus music with the... Come on! Yeah, well, if you wait under the water for the whole

cycle to go through, when it drops out right at the end and you're about to drown, if you then spin dash out, it will start playing the Sonic and Knuckles music, which is a glitch. And it's also kind of a wild glitch, because I imagine anyone who discovered it independently somehow prior to...

Right, so it does that... It's like Knuckles being out. On just a Sonic 3 cartridge, it does that. Yeah, because you don't hear that music on the Sonic 3 and Knuckles combined. No, quite. You should give it a try. It's an interesting little glitch, I think. That is one thing I will say.

We hadn't mentioned this, but like some music tracks change. Oh, yeah. Some Sonic 3 music tracks are changed when you plug in Sonic and Nuggles as well. But the Sonic 3 solo mini-boss theme is incredible. because it's so cheeky and funky and it's almost like a dance battle or something and it starts out and it literally goes be-de-per-da-be-be-be-b-b-b-b-b-b-ppfch come on

you know what it reminds me of genuinely Sonic CD Worked that sucker to death Come on now work that sucker the death It feels like of a piece with that to me Yeah Like how, like what an utterly bizarre are, like, Sonic always had his finger on the pulse of pop culture.

And what other series would you have, like, a game mascot that's, like, sampling stuff from, like, Xavier and Bob Marley and has actual Michael Jackson vocalization samples specifically for that game in it? You know, you say that he did have the finger on the pulse of pop culture, but the promotional single tied in with Sonic 3 was, in fact, Wonder Man by why it said Fred. Yeah, which is, you know, and they're getting all. bammed up by the pirate STC guys in that music video. Yeah. And they got an all bammed up in real life by becoming massively right wing. Imagine if like... Right wing said Fred.

Nice. Hey, get ready for this guys. Wait, let me just say this hilarious joke. Do you mind? Okay. Shite said Fred. Yay! Got him. What they should have done is they should have got burned Cribbins himself in. Yes.

Agreed. Oh, right, said Fred. Have to take the door off. Neimos. space to shift the so-and-so. Had bad twinges, taking off the inches, and it's got us nowhere, and so, we had a cup of tea, and right. Oh, can we get that on the soundtrack, please?

Have a cup of tea, then? No, I'll stop. So, Hydro City, you've got Robotnik's washing machine, that is what it's called, it's canon now. Okay. And the second boss there, after you've encountered Knuckles once again, to do much the same thing to blow up a bridge

that you're standing on. It's called, and this is a very catchy title from STC, is Dr. Robopnik's water spout and depth charge machine. Which is what I'm going to start calling it when I have to take a pee and a poo at the same time.

Wow, good one. Actually, I did enjoy that. I'm going to think about that every day. Now, this is quite a good. interesting one because it's a little bit unlike what we've said about it being kind of breezy. I mean, it's very hard to get hit by this boss. But to actually damage it is surprisingly difficult, though there are multiple ways to do it, of course. Sorry, I've got the wiki up in front of me, and I need to put this on record.

Because this is fascinating to me. It is, the wiki begins, the egg vortex, also known as Dr. Bobnick's Water Spout and depth charge machine or Dr. Robotnik's water spout and depth charge machine. And I was looking for the difference between two for ages. They've changed the and to an ampersand. That is some

fucking dedication to accuracy there. Yeah, it really is. And it's because of this, I think that anyone who does contribute to wiki should be exanguinated in front of their family. But this boss is quite interesting to me because you have two ways of hitting it, which is

the easy way, which is the jump on the whirlpool as it lowers from the machine, or the hard way, which is to use the explosion from the bombs to propel you into the air. Yeah, that feels like it's what you're supposed to do. I disagree. I think while you are, while it is an option, I think that the much, the way of climbing on the vortex is like so much easier. But now that you mention it, it's quite, it is quite difficult. You only have a few seconds of leeway there. So maybe you're right.

Maybe that is what you're supposed to do. Oh, I think you're supposed to do all of it. We've got, like, this is the thing. This boss now has, like, and once you're up there, you can get a good few hits in it if you're good enough with the physics. That's two ways to attack this boss. The third way is if you have the bubble shield, you can bounce and just get enough height at the peak of it

to hit him without hitting the propeller and damaging yourself. Yeah, yeah. What a great boss! No, it's brilliant. And the timing of it, like, the way, this is the one, isn't it, where he's going left and right and dropping those little bombs. And the little spouts of them, the timing of it, means that if you just go, oh, he's dropped one, I'll get on that.

Wrong. You'll never get him with that. You have to wait until he comes back again to cross over that one. And, like, there's a little bit of timing involved. It's great. I mean, the thing that makes it challenging to use the bombs is that I believe they've propelled you fully off-screen, or at least they can do. Which means you've got to then navigate sort of invisibly

to land on him for a second? Yeah, because he's right at the top of the screen. Yeah. Change, remember when we played this at yours and I beat him and then the game locked up and I just drowned? I think so, yeah. I have a video of it because I'm just, it was completely organic. I was just filming having beaten the boss and Sonic went into his celebratory do-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-do that whole thing. Yeah.

But then it just, it disappeared and he wouldn't move. He was still stuck in his I'm celebrating animation. The cutscenes didn't trigger. And then the drowning animation kicked him. Okay. So I didn't know that you'd been around. That shame his house, right? Yeah, many, many times.

Oh, well, I didn't know that. That's not true. It was only once. Okay. Is that you've gone to... It's a long way away. That's a trip. And you've gone there,

and you're just sat on the couch playing Sonic. Well, what do you want us to do? Like, kiss. Obviously. You've gone to so much trouble. You know, I'm not going to talk about that on the podcast now, am I? Oh, okay. So, after you've beaten this boss,

Hydro-Hidiozone is over. You, uh, how do you get into? marble garden again? There's a big bidet comes up from under the ground and shoots you up. That's right. It just blasts you back up again, doesn't it? Yeah. On the plus side, Sonic's A is very clean.

Oh, you got the performer. So then, yep, you're blasted into the air and you fall straight into Zone 3, Marble Garden. And to my genuine astonishment, we've reached the point where I'd like to end the podcast. And we've only managed to do two levels.

well done guys this might be the start of an ongoing series it has to be it has to be I mean the fact is this is such a dense game and we're such dense people it can only take forever you know but now that we've done the I what I'd call the basics the introductions as well as the first two levels I think in the next one I think we could quite easily finish Sonic 3 yes we'll speak up from here yeah as it would like Sonic um but no that that's not that's not saying that we have to if we think of If we have plenty of analysis and stuff to say, we can really get in there. It's the whole point of this. But I'd like to say, I apologize. Has anyone got any thoughts on what we've done this far before we... Would anyone like to think about what you've done today? Would anyone like to think about the things that you've said and done, like to reflect on them by any chance? Well, I like Sonic 3 and Knuckles.

I could either have been here this evening gushing about one of my favourite things. ever made or I could have been playing Overwatch which I fucking hate so thank you so much for this opportunity to not play Overwatch. Oh you're quite welcome you know I bought Overwatch and I played it for about five hours on one day and I was

like wow that was really really fun I really enjoyed that and I never played it again ever in my entire life you know what leave it there leave it there. It is, it makes a very strong first impression and it has

a deleterious effect on your life. I played Overwatch and my first impression of it was that at no point did I have any clear what was going on at all. And I got very frustrated and that was that. I was bad at it, listeners. What I'd like to do now is I'd like to say, thank you

very much for listening. There will obviously be a continuation of this because we are not just analysing the first two zones in a 14 zone game. This has to come back. I hope you will all be willing to do that. Absolutely. Hell yeah. Yeah, I might have to put a little contract together, force you to. But first of all, before we continue, I'd like to say,

Shea, where can listeners find you online if they want to follow your deeds and transpirance? People can, you can follow me on Twitter at Shay May, as spelled phonetically, S-H-A-Y-M-A-Y underscore. And you can also find me on YouTube. you can type in the same word she may and you should find me I do very long and wordy

game analyses fairly and frequently you can also find an ongoing comic project that Stu and I are both embroiled in which is... Oh no! Nepbabies! Carry on! Oh wait, it's Nepo babies. I got it wrong didn't I? God.

I was thinking of Hyperdimension Neptunia and I was just so excited thinking about a nip-nip. Sorry, go on. I'm bewildered by that. If you fancy reading Stu and I's Sonic fan fiction, you can go to

SDC Online.com. UK, which is it's slightly more prestigious than I made it sound there. It is, like, the fans continued the UK's Sonic Comic, Sonic the Comic because it was of a genuinely high

quality. Yeah. Dave, that was a Sonic comic that was put out in the UK just in case you're not familiar with it. Oh, okay, yeah. Is that the one that Fleetway is from? That yellow Sonic? Yeah, yeah, Fleetway. Like he's doing a bit, but I saw the red mist to send there for a second.

Oh, yeah, so Dave, Mr. Ballmer-Sah, where can the listeners, even though they know already from your previous appearances, where can we find you? You know exactly who I am. But if you want to hear me talk about Sonic, specifically that comic we've just talked about, go to Sonic the Comic the Podcasting. You find it at STCTP.Zone, but just type Sonic the Comic, the podcast, into something, and you'll find it.

And if you're interested in my Sonic fanfix, details will be within. If you like Retronauts, which is the podcast you're listening to right now, by the way, and you want to support Retronauts and get some more Retronauts content, because if you like Retronauts, what can be better than more Retronauts?

For $5 a month, which, incidentally, is a pitiful amount of money, a pathetic amount of money, like, nothing. It might as well be nothing, to be honest. Like, if you have $5 in your hands, it's like you've got empty hands as far as I'm concerned. Like, if someone threw $5, if I saw $5 on the floor, I wouldn't even pick it up, I'd step on it out of just spite.

Yeah, and kick whoever the nearest person is. Yeah, and anyone who did pick up, I'd spit on them, and I would go, you're pathetic. Anyway, no, that's, none of that is true. This is life in Tordy, but in. Yeah. Fortunately, I have now officially become a Tori. Sorry, guys.

Oh, dear. It was only a matter of time. Apparently, that's why I keep getting told. In the future, you will lose all your principles and become a horrible person. Oh, okay. That sounds bad. Anyway, yes, $5 a month, and you'll get every weekly Monday episode seven days in advance, as well as two full-length bonus episodes per month.

Three, this week in retro columns and mini podcast. from Diamond Fight, as well as the brand new this month in Retronaut's community podcast with Diamond Fight and myself, just in case you're not sick of my tedious blithering. For, oh, it's in pounds, so I've lost complete control of it. For 60 pounds a month, you can set the opportunity of a Retronaut's episode, the topic of a retroauts episode, which is extremely exciting,

because you can get us to talk about, oh God, the weather, suppose if you wanted to, couldn't you? And there's an even higher tier that lets you guest on a segment of retronauts so you can come on here and you can personally give me your abuse, which I no doubt deserve. So thanks very much for listening.

That's been our retronaut. We shall return, hopefully this exact same crew, to further pick the bones of Sonic 3 and Nuckles, until they are completely dry of any and all flesh. As you may have gathered, this is a game that I believe all of us hold very

close to our hearts so yeah great great game and you know what i'm gonna play it probably right now so uh thanks very much uh take care of yourselves and i know there've been a lot of episodes with me lately i apologize this two shall pass You're going to be able to be.