Retronauts - 557: What's So Great About Video Game History, Anyway?

Episode Date: September 4, 2023

Jeremy Parish, Kat Bailey, Nadia Oxford, and Kevin Bunch take a moment to answer the question in the title: Why is video game history worth celebrating and preserving at all? Plus: Jeremy takes the question to a panoply of other retro gaming luminaries! Retronauts is made possible by listener support through Patreon! Support the show to enjoy ad-free early access, better audio quality, and great exclusive content. Learn more at http://www.patreon.com/retronauts

This week at Retronauts. Old games? What's the deal with that? And this is a very special gorilla-style episode, another one. We gorillas are in the midst of Long Island Retro Gaming Expo talking about old video games at a convention about old video games surrounded by old airplanes that video games have been made about. It's just its inception here. And we're celebrating it. We're soaking it in.

That's why you can hear weird background noises because we are, this is ambiance, friends. And when I say we, I mean, of course, myself, Jeremy Parrish, and also other retronauts, including... Hello, it's me, Kat Bailey, distracted by these Nintendo DS commercials, Nintendoogs, and also a Sonic, the old Sonic 90s cartoon with the juxtapose against Long Island Airfields go-to-war. So this is kind of ambiance we're in right now. Sonic Sat Am, which is one little hump away from Sonic Satan. I think that's important to make that note.

Who else is here? Speaking of Satan. Yes, I'm Satan. How are you doing? No, just you seem like the kind of person who would taunt Satan. I probably would. I don't think we'd get along very well. But I am Nadia Oxford. And I'm just thinking about the time I had Sharkey on Retronauts many years ago. And he was saying how Princess Sally, I'm looking at the sonic cartoon right now,

he said Princess Sally, like basically Sally is the Hebrew word for princess or something like that. So basically she was Princess Princess and I mean, you know, Arthur and Ghost and Goblins had to say Princess Prin. So I feel like there's not a lot of creativity involved where people name princesses. I do know that personally being kind of more in tune with the Sonic than you guys are, unfortunately. There was like a, there was a controversy where Sally in the comic removed her boots and her vest to get into a pool of golden water or something like that. And it's just like everyone freaked out.

You know, this chick doesn't wear pants in the first place. So why is it matter if she's taking off her open vest, by the way, and her boots? Well, Clinton Tarantino probably would have some things to explain about the boots. But, yeah, I don't know. It's cartoons, man. It's cartoons, me. There's not a lot of anatomical accuracy involved in Sonic the Hedgehog characters. At least there shouldn't be, although, you know.

If you ask certain fanfic writers. Yeah, I realize there's no stopping some people. Anyway, finally, speaking of Sonic fanfic writers, here's someone who has nothing whatsoever to do with any of that. Not since fourth grade, no, this is Kevin Bunch. All right, and I guess you don't want to improvise here. I'm not bringing up that fan fiction that I never finished, because it was not very good.

Was it about Sonic? It was about Sonic, yes. Did he take off his shoes? I don't remember. Is he a realistic-looking human feet like Kirby? You know, I don't think I was that. that creative is a fourth grader. Or disturbed, yeah.

Or disturbed. I mean, I was watching Sonic cartoon. So there was a certain degree of disturbed going on. So as you can tell from the tone of this episode, it's been a long day here at Long Island Retro Gaming Expo. And we're all a little loopy. We even saw someone talk about the Casio loopie. So it just kind of, you know, emphasizes all of that.

But yes, this episode is, it's going to be very loose. and it's going to consist of multiple parts, mostly us, but also other people. And I would like to put to everyone a simple question, which is actually a very complicated question once you actually stop to think about it. What's so great about video game history? Why are we doing this at all? What's the deal? So let me ask you first.

Yeah, that's straightforward question. What's so great about video game history? Kevin, I feel like you are the most studious and methodical, like an actual librarian researcher type when it comes to video game history. So let me ask you, that question first. Oh, geez. Yeah, that's... You know, I've always been really fascinated by these games that existed before I existed, or at least was conscious of anything going on around me.

And I feel like it was just this notion that this was like a world of games that I did not experience. And I kind of just wanted to go back and see what that was about and what made these games appealing to people in the first place. And, you know, in my 40s now, I was around for a good deal of video games since then. And I still like going back and revisiting them or even discovering things. I'd never really gotten to play, especially with arcade games. I didn't get to go to the arcade that often when I was a kid and missed out a lot of cool stuff that I'm just now catching up on. Okay, so that doesn't actually answer the question I asked, but that's okay because another question I wanted to ask was what got you interested in video game history in the first place. So maybe we'll make that the first question.

And it kind of sounds like your motivation is FOMO. Like you missed out on stuff that existed before you existed And you're like, no I have to know about that too Yeah And you know Sometimes it's stuff that's super obscure So I may have been there for it

But I didn't own a seedy eye as a kid I wasn't playing Such quality titles As The Wacky Worlds of Miniature Golf Featuring Eugene Levy Or Voyer I missed out man

I missed out. Got to go check those out now. Yeah, I feel like, you know, when I look back to my childhood, when I was very young and video games still would show up, you know, in electronics shops and things like that. They were, you know, early consoles. I feel like there were so many systems out in the early 80s that it was impossible to really get a handle on everything,

certainly for a small child brain. But, like, I can definitely relate to that. There have been just, like, moments where I've seen, you know, in my, in playing old games or walking through the museums, it shows like this, where I'm like, oh, oh, my God, this is dislodging a memory in the back of my brain. I remember seeing this, and I was profoundly moved by it as a child, but I've never known what it was. And now here it is. It's Montezuma's Revenge for Atari 800. now I know I can put that that you know like

I don't have to haunt the earth in search of this question once I die. You can die peacefully. That's right I can finally... A ratatooie scene one perfect moment of pure nostalgia. Something along those lines except it's just like oh now I know what this thing is it's the desire to know I guess to connect a name

to it. And I guess to answer your original question Oh no we'll come back to that. Okay yeah that's fine we'll do this as a round table Everyone feel free to chime in and comment on Kevin's responses. But I do have to ask, do you feel the same sense of, like, I need to know more about the things before me with other areas of study and interest? Or is it something specific to video games?

I'm kind of a history nerd in general, so I feel like video games is the topic that I go in deepest on, but aviation, super cool. I'm really interested in that kind of stuff. Yeah, we're surrounded by actually. actual vintage airplanes hanging over our heads. This is the wildest video game show of all time. The cradle of aviation. Yeah, it takes place in an aviation museum

with just tons and tons of old actual aircraft with the history behind them. It's just amazing. But yeah, like, it doesn't really have anything to do with video games, but it does still feel kind of like of a piece. I don't know. Kevin, I understand what you mean. I love the feeling of being able to understand and kind of grok an era from well before my

conscious existence. I enjoy the film. It's a wonderful life, not just because of the messaging and a profound affirmation of life. I'm sorry, I'm really corny. But also because it was made in the 1940s and it's about nostalgia for the 1920s. And that's, I feel like when I'm watching that, that I'm. actually like this is what it was like to be alive in the 1920s.

I want to take on in all the details and I realize that that's a very specific frame of mind that not a lot of people have but it does definitely connect to video games. Yeah. I mean I have that to a degree in kind of unusual ways

like when I watch media from Japan in the 80s I'm just like that just seems so so interesting and I would love to have been there at that time, to experience, like, that country at the peak of its economic power where, you know, everyone had the luxury to just go hog wild and create all kinds of weird, interesting, innovative things. And, you know, like, as much as I enjoy visiting Japan now,

I just wish I could have been there 30 years ago to experience what it was like, you know, 30, 40 years. See, I talked to Pierre Schneider over at IGN, who was there in the early 90s and his stories of what it was like to be in Akihabra and everything. Oh, that would be incredible. Reading the old stories from Dylan Cuthbert and all them about talking about what it was like to work at Nintendo in the early 90s is so interesting hearing them be like, yeah, back then, Japanese tourism in Japan was not really a thing, and people didn't really speak English and things like that.

I'm like, wow, so interesting. Yeah. Hard to imagine that now. Yeah, well, they're going all in on tourism, so it's a lot of layers to it. For me, it's like I'm 40, almost 40, well, I am 43 years old, so that means I've been playing video games for about 40 years of my life. I kind of lived a lot of video game history and I started with systems that were before me, like the Commodore 64

and the ClickViton, the Atari, what not. So, having been there, I like to talk to people about what it is all about, like, what it was like and what's come, you know, trends and things like that. And even now, talking about how the games industry media is, like, really, really in a bad place. It has been there before. It will become

something else that will fail. It's just, I like the fact that I can be there and talk about these things and tell people about them. I know it sounds a little bit like, you know, kind of self-absorbed, but I don't know. I think it's fun to do. Yes, I think all of us have been here since very early part of the game's history. So the biography of the games industry is our biographies to a great extent. And also, you and I are doing Acts of the Blood God.

We've learned a lot about RPG history that we had no idea, like talking about Falcom's history and the MSX and all of the rest of it. I've learned a lot. I have to. Kat, how did you become interested in studying and exploring video game history? I am also kind of a history nerd. I enjoy old media a lot. It pops up in lots of my other interests. For example, I like sports,

and I really, really enjoy watching old videos about what it was like to be at those. games in the 1960s or whatever or I like to I'm reading fever pitch right now which is about a freaking English soccer team in the 1970s and 1980s all of that is very interesting because it's a very clear window into a specific era and then I think old video games are just endlessly interesting it was an explosion of wild creativity from independent artists and programmers especially in the 1980s, and the, there's so much of it that, and I feel like I'm discovering stuff all the time that I didn't know about, just walking around this show, I see exhibits,

and I'm like, what is this? What is that? That's so cool. People who just came up with a wild idea and gave expression to it, maybe it was lost to history, but now here it is, and somebody wants to preserve it and give it care. I think that's worth celebrating. Yeah, that's a very good point too, because you look at these old games and they're very experimental, like even stuff relatively recently, you know, before budgets exploded, people had ideas. Sometimes they didn't work out. Sometimes they didn't have the know-how or the technology to make it work out. But you could see what they were going for. And that makes it like really interesting. to explore and see how those ideas sort of were iterated upon over time until you get

to what we have now. I also love old magazines. I'm the kind of person who will buy old Sports Illustrated or old Saturday evening posts from like the 50s or 60s and read through them and look through the ads. Right behind us right now are ads from the 2000s for Mario Kart and the Wii and everything like that. And I'm just kind of hypnotized by it because it was, I feel like watching these, I'm like, okay, I've been transported back to the year 2006, 2007, 2008, and it evokes a lot of feelings in me.

The art is usually very different from what we have now. Everything feels like it really is of that era. And that era was... It wasn't AI generated. Everyone has the right number of fingers. And it's very heightened in video games, I think. So, Nadia, did you really answer the question of what got you started exploring video game history? I feel like you kind of weaved around it but didn't quite, like, put a pin in it.

Yeah, I guess just the fact that, like, there's always something new to learn. Like, I was telling you earlier about how coming here, it's like, oh, cool, it always comes back to Street Fighter 2 for me for some reason. but it's like, wow, there's a version of Street Fighter 2. I haven't played the PC engine version. So I'm like, oh, cool, that's fun. And then it's like, oh, here's the CDI. I have heard all about it, but I've never actually played it. Oh, my God, this is the worst control I've ever held in my life.

So experiences like that are still, like the fact that I've been here for such a long time and yet I can still learn is pretty awesome. I mean, I'm not like a huge history buff. I'm the kind of person who I get stuck on something and then I'm interested in. And then I'm just, I remember everything about it. But if I don't care up to that point, And I have a problem. But video games are just something I care about,

so I want to learn more about the history, the future, the past, all of it. And Jeremy, I think you have had a big role in why I've become interested in games history, because back in the earliest days of Retronauts, I was a fan, and I used to listen to it all the time on the train to work when I was living in Japan. And at that time, video game nostalgia podcast seemed like sort of a novel concept. And so I was like, I love the NES. Let's talk about it. But then you kept going deeper and deeper and deeper with guests who are so knowledgeable. And I was like, I didn't know any of this.

This is so interesting. And that naturally drew me into that particular segment of gaming history and a lot of other people too. So I think you've had a big role to play in that. Interesting. I feel like the version of me that started Retronauts was kind of an idiot. I didn't really know that much but I had the advantage of being at Zift Davis during

like really sort of the peak era for the magazines and website and it was just like dozens and dozens of smart, experienced, talented, you know, eloquent people who you know really short up my weaknesses and deficiencies.

And so I could just, you know, summon them and they would create a great episode by just talking. Even if I didn't really have as much knowledge as I probably needed to make things work out. I like how you sum of them, like Final Fantasy Eye Dolans. No, absolutely. I was just like, I raised the John Ricardy Magicide.

So here, I've called Mark McDonald. He's going to tell us about Mr. Mime. Jeff Green was literally there in the early 90s, working on PC games that are covering PC games. So interesting, yeah. Yeah. He's picturing you drawing a pentagram on the ground and like Chris Kohler appears.

Actually, that is how it works. Yeah. And then he sings karaoke at you. It's a special attack. Yeah. Or he throws a curry. All right. Next segment, please introduce yourself and tell us what you do. This is Ryan Shapiro of the Long Island Retro Gaming Expo. I'm a co-founder, but I play the role of a panel coordinator today.

I mean, this is kind of your show in a lot of ways. Maybe not yours alone, but you've been helping to run the show since the start, right? Yes, since the beginning. How long has it been since the beginning now? It's almost coming up on 10 years. Our first show was in 2015. Nice. So let me ask you, as someone who puts on one of the absolute coolest shows about classic video games,

what's so great about video game history? What drives you to do this? I mean, originally it was driven by demand that a lot of people kept asking, like, when are we meeting up? Because the hobby was starting to grow. It was almost like this feeling of a lot of people getting more and more interested in this silly old hobby that I had of paying attention to and collecting old video games. So it really grew into a convention. And, you know, as you know, or maybe as our listeners will find out, you know, we pay a very close attention to a history aspect in the archival and getting a lot of hands-on play. with old systems that I never had a chance to, and a lot of people never had a chance to play.

Yeah, I mean, this show takes place in a museum. Yeah. And it has the most impressive interactive museum I've seen it in the event. I mean, it's just about every system you can imagine is represented. And I feel like, you know, speaking from personal experience, people who see a gap there and can fill it, we'll step in and say, oh, hey, you don't have an epoch cassette vision, let me bring mine, and things like that. So every year, there's just more and more. And it really, like, just walking through the three floors of this museum,

you really get a sense of, like, here's basically every way people have been able to play video games. It is, it's almost, yeah, that's community driven, right? The whole concept of doing this is someone would say, hey, you know what? Racing games are underrepresented here. There's a lot of history. And we said, okay, let's grow that idea. And now, you know, George, who runs ours racing area, continues to expand and get into niche area. of weird controllers and stuff.

So you're right. If there's a gap, people just raise their hand and fill it, and we're so grateful for that. So that brings me back to my original question. What's so great about video game history? What is it that makes you want to do this beyond, you know, the demand for it? I like to keep it around for people

for the younger generation to put their hands on stuff and see where everything came from, and that's the same for me. I mean, we've been sort of reusing IP year over year and over and over, and I like to see where my characters came from. I like to, personally, I like to see where Nintendo's roots are before Mario, before all that stuff and the original toys. So when you start looking at the older consoles,

you can start to see how they were more toys and less interactive and how things have grown. And it's important to represent that, and I'm glad we're doing our part. Do you see the show expanding in the future? Is there any way for this show to expand? I feel like you've kind of spread out to fill every nook and cranny of this museum. We have. We have. We do find ways to continue to expand year over year.

I mean, maybe we can spread out into the parking lot a little bit with some tents. I don't know. We'll have to see. All right. Well, Ryan, thank you very much for your time. And thank you for continuing to help host this show every year. It continues to be awesome. You're very welcome, Jeremy. Thank you so much. So I have with me here one Mr. Jared Petty. Hello, Jeremy.

Hi, Jared. Introduce yourself for those who do not know. Yeah, I'm Jared. I am your minion at Limited Run Games. Let's say Coboon. Co-Bun. I'm your co-minion. No, Coboon. Oh, Coboon. There we are. I'm your Oyabun. You're my co-boon.

I'm a co-bun. Excellent. There you go. That sounds less horrible than Minian. Okay, well, then I'm your co-bun. You don't wear overalls for one thing. I don't. No. I also have two eyes. Yeah, they both still work right now, so that's great. Fantastic. Yeah, I work at Limited Run with you. I love video games. We're here at Long Island Retro Expo doing some panels. It's fun. So my question to you here at Long Island Retro Expo is, what's so great about video game history? Why do you do this? I do it for the, what's so great about video game history is the same thing that's great about other history. Context enriches our lives today.

As much as I enjoy history is something esoteric, as much as I enjoy accumulating knowledge because it's fun to read or it's something I like. The richest part of studying history is that it makes life today more meaningful. History provides a context that helps us understand what's happening around us in a crazy world. it at least creates, studying history creates at the very least an illusion that we have some grasp of why things are happening or what's happened before so we can understand what might happen again. And that's history in general. In video games, it's really the same thing.

It's a form of art history and understanding what came before helps appreciate and enjoy the art better today. Okay, as a follow-up to that, What would you recommend to anyone who is interested in, you know, learning more about video game history, about becoming involved themselves? Do you think it's even something people should bother with to, to, you know, become actively involved in studying, writing about, talking about exploring video game history? I absolutely think people should. And it's more accessible than most kinds of history because it's fun. I think the best thing you can do if you want to study video game history is play video.

video games. Lots of them. Lots of old video games. Some of those are not fun, though. No, they are, but thankfully, there are so many books and lists and curated resources out there from people like you, Jeremy, and many others, to help people understand what games are important and why. But there's a difference between reading about it and experiencing it? I say people who want to get started in video game history should go out and play some of the best old games. Play something that appeals to you. You do not have. to have a comprehensive knowledge of video game history to appreciate it. Nobody's played everything. Nobody's studied everything. Start with what seems fun to you, and then gradually

I think you're going to find your taste broadening and widening. Do you have an area of video game history that you particularly specialize in or that you would love to focus on more? I am not a video game primary source historian in the way people like you and a lot of the folks we hang out with are. I am, if anything, a teacher much more than I am a researcher. My job, I see it, is to help people experience the 101-level freshman course of video game history. What I try to do is take opportunities I'm given to talk about video games in general and use those to shine a light on older, more formative experiences in video game history

and help people appreciate that this all isn't just happening in a vacuum and that there's more to learn from out there that will help them understand and enjoy what's happening today. So that's how I see myself in this, and that's the part that I enjoy the most, is taking other people's hard work and then being like the community college prof that boils it all down to a first-year syllabus. Okay, that sounds a good way of saying it. Although I'm not really a researcher myself, I'm more of just a mouthy person who modologues a lot. But, you know, we all get by. Yeah, so for myself, like, I've kind of thought about this question, like, how did I start taking an interest in video game history? And, you know, I was interested in video games from, like, 1980 or so when I was a Wii Sprite.

And I just kind of grew up with video games, like everyone else has kind of said. and went from the early 8-bit consoles through the NES, and that's when I really kind of fell into it hard, and just kept going. And I remember, you know, I only had so much money, so much time, et cetera. So I gave up my NES for a super NES, and I could see I was going to be giving up my super NES for an N64, a PlayStation, or whatever.

But around that time, around that generational transition, I went to like a pawn shop or something and there were all these NES games that were just five bucks each and I remember looking at them and thinking these were so fun so long ago and then I realized it wasn't really that long ago and actually the NES at that point

it was 1995 or so it was still on sale you could still buy it you can go to Toys R Us and acquire it you know buy Star Tropic's or whatever so yeah I guess at that point you know that's also around when emulation became a thing

and also I you know soon after that I got my first proper job and had money and could go to pawn shops and old video games were so cheap at pawn shops at that point you know eight and 16 bit games I'd buy copies of like secret of mana and

it'd be 10 bucks and I just sent with the people I knew online because they were like oh yeah I want to play that I'm like I found a copy for 10 bucks the battery works here you go the battery does work there's some really weird It's a weird character name saved on here. Did you check this before you send it to me? Oops, no.

That was probably my fault. Yeah, like, once I actually started writing online in, like, 1996 or seven, just for my own benefit, I just started writing about video games as a whole. And, you know, I was writing about PlayStation games and, you know, new stuff. But also, like, hey, you know, the Goonies 2 was really cool, or Clash a Demonhead. That was a weird game. I like that. and so it kind of all existed in this continuity for me but you know as I kind of made that my bit

at oneup.com and you know started retronauts and so forth and kind of focused on it more and more I wanted to learn more about you know the other things that were beyond my knowledge and that requires a time investment in money but I'm just you know I'm interested to see how the things that I enjoy in the past or present like where they came from what the foundations they're built on and in the past few years I've really

like started to go off into the weeds just because you know I've started kind of gotten to a point where I have a pretty strong knowledge of the mainstream stuff so now it's off into the really obscure corners but also I'm fortunate enough to basically work

three jobs and so I have the finances to be able to afford to invest in in some of the more esoteric type things and you know I try to justify that by creating content about it yes as much as I hate the word content it is videos and podcasts and books I mean what else do you say about it that you take with it is really valuable exactly I appreciate that yeah and the way that you capture uh you go and invest in capturing it for real yeah some of the best capture that it's its own form of game preservation I think I mean I just um I like to do things well when I do them.

Otherwise, I don't know, I feel bad about myself. Like, you know, I just, I want to do something that's worth doing and do it in a way that's worthwhile itself, if that makes sense. So, yeah, like, yeah, I feel like I have a certain level of privilege, and I'm trying to capitalize on that in a way that benefits those who might be interested in learning more about epoch or Gockens video games or, you know, the history of Bondi. consoles. I'm going to get there at some point.

And it doesn't really affect that many people, maybe necessarily playing Fortnite and, you know, squandering their V-bucks. But the people who care, I think, I hope will appreciate it. And, you know, ultimately, I'm

creating things for people who have the same mindset as me, which is just I want to know more about what else is out there. I like, you know, I like Metroidvania games because I like to explore, but that extends to the things that interest me also, music or video games.

So I'm always, you know, kind of thirsting for more information and more discovery and kind of groping around through the world to see like, oh, what else is out there? And the great thing about video games is I feel like no matter how much I uncover, there's still going to be more. Like, I haven't even touched on Japanese PC games.

My God, that's a lifetime in itself. Yeah. Nadia and I sure delved into that aspect of it. We sure have. Oh, yeah? Yeah. I mean, we, when we were doing our console RPG quest, we veered off and did a PC RPG quest. And we brought on some folks who were genuine experts in the Japanese.

Yeah, we had Audi. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, his online handle is 9801. Yeah, it was all very interesting. I was completely ignorant of that part of the game. I was very sadly ignorant of Falcom's history I knew of them of course but

how much they contributed to the action RPG they invented it practically and I didn't realize that I had a very simplified view of game history like oh first there was adventure and then there was Zelda and that was it but no there's I'm missing a huge ass chapter that

involves Falcom very very deeply so it's Felipe Pepe likes to say it's a conversation it really is games are always always in conversation with one another. There's just so many, like, of those Japanese companies that were putting out so much stuff on those PCs, that we never saw any of it, and so much of it is just not available in

English language. Yeah. Even, even, like, people talking about them, there's not that much, so, yeah, that's, that's, that's catnip, basically, you know, just, like, oh, here's a, here's an interesting, uh, I can go down and fall into a hole for 40 feet, and then I'm in, I don't know, the world from Blastermaster. I've lost the narrative. There's a giant frog.

Oh, my God. Yeah. The giant frog is, you know, punchball soup Mario Brothers. now we can get back to my original question, you know, half an hour later. I'm going to start with someone else, though, Kevin. You squandered your chance. Cat, let me ask you,

what is so good, what is so great about video game history? Why does it matter? Why should anyone care? At a high level, to understand video games is to understand our culture. It is the language of multiple generations, and many years from now, of our society still exists,

anthropologists will, and historians will be going back and video games will be necessarily a part of our pop cultural story. You just can't ignore their impact over the years

from the NES to the 2000s to things like the Wii and people will be like, are they that important though? It's like, well everybody plays video games. Okay? So if everybody plays video games, what does that say about our culture? And so to understand the medium is very important in that respect. And then at a lower level, I think there's a lot of value in not talking

about art in a very hoity-toity way, but cataloging the creativity and the human genius. And it is genius that goes into creating these things, a technical genius. being able to celebrate the programming feats that people are able to accomplish on these machines, the industrial design of the individual consoles, and then the games themselves, which are a new way of interacting with our media. And in that respect, even though it doesn't always get that much respect from the greater culture, I think that gaming history is incredibly important to study. Yeah, you know, to your point, here at this event, I was up on the third floor where it's basically dedicated to Tetris this year.

It's just every variant of Tetris you can imagine except the Virtual Boy ones. And, you know, I was going back downstairs and I stopped and looked over the railing down into the museum to the second and first floors. And, you know, one, it's a really cool site because there's like a giant American war plane. and just like hanging over everyone and there's, you know, it's a really well-designed space. But I stopped and I looked and I realized like the diversity of people here is stunning.

It's every walk of American life represented in the people attending this show because they like video games. You know, the stereotype of video games is, you know, disaffected, near-do-well, teenage boys who never leave their basement and never shower. But I mean,

sure there were a few of those here. They did get out of their basement. But, no, for the most part, it was families, you know, mothers and fathers or, you know, same-sex parents and kids. And it was older people. It's, you know, people of all races, not just a bunch of pimply white kids. And they're all here because they enjoy this. It's not a case of, you know, like a wife begrudgingly traveling to this event with her husband and sitting there bored while he plays video games. You look around there are young and old women and young and old men alike at all these different games playing things. I mean, you have dudes playing the Sims, you have teenage girls playing crazy shoot-em-ups. I saw one girl who's playing a PC engine kiosk playing, God, I don't

know sidearms or something and just like playing perfect twitch responses dodging bullets by a matter of pixels and I was like this is awesome this kid was not born when this game came out yeah she's kicking its ass that is so cool I think by yeah it's it's it's our culture our society sorry I'm not just gonna say one of my favorite sites today with well two sites actually one was a kid playing uh donkey comic the calico vision which is my very first video game and you was my age when he was playing it and his mother was kind of behind him like trying to direct him uh also there was just this great scene i saw of like a mother sitting playing a PlayStation game i don't know what it was and her kid did like one-year-old smashing her head against the controller and it's like

i said to her you know what she's getting the gist of it she's she's learning the ropes oh man that reminds me this morning i i saw a dad into a little girl up in the arcade space and she's like, it's Space Invaders and ran right up to the machine. Aw, Space Invaders. That's cute. Your dad might not have been bored when this game came out. And you are just all in on it. That's amazing.

I love it. I think it's also worth noting that the video game industry is a multi-billion dollar industry that has greatly affected whole countries. Yes. You could say, without a hint of irony, that a sizable amount of Japan's soft power is in part because of video games. Yeah, I mean, the most profitable movie this year has been Super Mario Brothers, which is, you know, it's an American production, but it's based on a Japanese product. And it is intertwined in certain cultural moments. Like, for example, when Nintendo was trying to buy the Seattle Mariners in the early 90s.

And how that unwittingly became a big debate because of the anti-Japan sentiment in the early 90s. And then if you go from each country and you look at the games they were playing, you can better understand that country. If you're looking at the clone consoles in the Soviet Union, the fact that over in South America, they were playing like the Sega Master System, right, all over the place. I find it so interesting, actually, when I'm in a country, I'm like, what are they playing? What's in their shops? And now it's become a lot more homogenous, but back in the day, like, you could learn a lot, honestly. So I feel like you need no intro, but nevertheless, I have to ask you, please introduce yourself. My name is Pat Contri. I'm, I guess, a retro gaming. I hate to use the word influencer, but I've been on YouTube for 15 years. I've done the

the NES Punk series. Flea Market Manus, one of the first game hunting shows. I've also co-directed, co-produced the Video Game Years documentary series, the Not for Resale, Mom and Pop Game Store documentary. I was executive producer on that. I've also done a podcast for 10 years, the completely unnecessary podcast, doing retro and modern gaming news. I've also produced two video game tomes,

ultimate Nintendo guide to the NES library, and Ultimate Nintendo Guide to the S&S library with the N64 version on the way. And I probably have done other things, but that's good enough for now, I think. So basically, you're ass-deep in retro video gaming history. Okay, it's that sort of interview. Yes, I am ass-deep in... Yeah, I feel like I sort of fell into it because I started collecting. Like, a lot of us did, like, in the 90s.

And then at that point, it was sort of finding the collective that also did the same thing. find them on on groups online websites places like nintendo age and then eventually figuring out that we should document all these things and getting into preservation and making connections at you know these upstart gaming conventions that are now huge it's been a weird journey to see it all happen over the past 15 20 years so that leads into my question for you and for everyone which is what's so great about video game history anyway what's so great about it i don't know if the reason I got into was that it was great. I just felt

an obligation to try to be a part of it as sort of like one of the first lines of defense against it eroding, if that makes sense. It was sort of like, well, I like this, I enjoy this and how many more of us out there also like it and enjoy enough

to document it? It's almost like we are where movies and TV probably was like in the 40s and 50s when things were starting to get lost with like fires of old stock of like silent films and things like that and the vaults were being destroyed and i feel like we're we're ahead of the game because we've seen what have happened to other entertainment industries and i think that's really where it came from yes the love of

these games are also now it's like i feel like some of us have like almost like a duty in order to do some of this work uh do like these documentaries write the books preserve some of these games or get the word out about you know this really still fairly new entertainment industry that's now the biggest one on the planet. But you used words there like line of defense and duty. So it does sound like you feel like there is something bigger about video games and video game history than just the individuals who are out there hoofing it and writing about it and making videos and so forth. Yeah, I mean, obviously it can be a source of income and it can be a source of, I guess, pride.

But it's almost, I thought of it as at some point, like, for example, when I did the first NES guide book, I was like, well, I feel an obligation to at least attempt to do this because 50 years or 100 years from now, there might be people wondering about all these individual games. It's one thing to know, like, well, everyone's going to remember the legend of Zelda or everyone's going to remember Super Mario Bros. 3. But what about the other 800 games? What about the odd games that could be great or even bad?

I think people should try to remember at least note all of them. And that's what it is. It's like you don't want everything to get lost. You want to try to at least have people reference everything that existed. I guess that's what a historian does is the best of their ability in some aspects. And that's where that originally came from, the idea of doing that. It's like, well, I can write about the legend of Zelda, but why don't I write about Eliminator Boat Duel? Why don't I write about Wally Bear in the No Game?

Like, that stuff deserves credit as well. People worked on that just as hard. They were invested in those titles. That should get the same sort of fair shake as the classics that we all. I'll remember more fondly. Final question, are there any frontiers in video game history that you feel aren't fully documented or properly documented yet that you'd like to see more coverage of, more exploration into? What should be more fully documented?

Wow, I'm not sure I'm the right person to ask about that. I'm more about on like the commercial release side for the most part, but I think it would be more interesting maybe to document the business side, the four, of some of these companies and what went into thinking about that. Someone at the event yesterday just mentioned an individual who literally worked for almost every unlicensed N-ES game publisher. They went from like Tengen to AVE to A-C-G-I and I'm just like, they worked for almost everyone except color dreams.

One individual, I'm like, that's fascinating. So there must have been some sort of inter-network of everyone knowing each other trying to like get by with Nintendo's draconian, you know, publishing restrictions. And that's an interesting part of it's like the business side and what went into the decisions to make these things. Like, what was the market resource that went into doing, you know, the Wisdom Tree Bible games? Like, what, like, I would love to know, like, what happened behind the scenes with some of that. All right, Pat, thanks so much for your time. Thanks, Jeremy. I appreciate it. Please introduce yourself. Hi. My name is Ash said hi. And I stream on Twitch.tv slash Ash said hi. And I

mostly play retro games like Amiga, Super Nintendo, NES, Sega Genesis, all that kind of stuff. So I love what I do, and I'm here hanging out in Long Island Retro Game Convention. So, Ash, let me ask you, what's so great about video game history? Why do you do this? Oh my God. Video game history is so important to me. I mean, I think the reason why it's important is because for the next generation of people who are creating games, it's important. to have them as resources to go back to to see how we have innovated in terms of like gameplay mechanics or in terms of like storyline mechanics and all those kinds of things so if we have a library of games that are available for people to have we will have a richer game future

with those resources at our disposal so what got you interested in you know streaming and talking about classic video games well I have always been a gamer since I was very young. I played video games with my mother and father. My mom still currently plays video games. She has a PS5, and I inherited all of my dad's stuff, like his Amiga 500, his PlayStation 1 collection. And I think that through Twitch and streaming classic games,

I'm able to share a lot of who I am and connect with people through all of those games that we love, and it keeps me going. and I really love meeting people and getting excited about video games with them. So it's the personal, the human element of video games you like to share with people? Absolutely. Like, I've been playing Final Fantasy 6 for the first time ever, and that has been such a fun experience because it's a well-loved game and one that people are very familiar with.

So their reaction to seeing my reaction to these things that they love for the first time has been quite a unique and fun experience. experience. Do you have any personal white whales, things you want to experience or track down that have been elusive to you so far? Yes, actually, I was able to experience that here at the convention. I've always wanted to see a sharp X-68,000. Oh, yeah, that's the king of computers. Yeah, so when I saw that, like, I was literally freaking out, you know, it was hooked up with these really amazing Roland speakers, and the video display was really nice, the screen was beautiful, and I got to play some Gradius 3 on it, and I was so happy and excited to be able to see that here.

And, yeah, that was definitely the number one thing, for sure. All right, awesome. Well, thanks for your time. It was great to meet you. Yeah, very nice to meet you, too. Thanks for having me. So, Kevin, now I put the question to you again. What's so great about video game history?

So, God, I feel like Kat stole a lot of my thunder with her answer. But yeah, it's the history of how people are entertained and, you know, how they entertain themselves. You look at, you know, the video game boom in the late 70s and early 80s, and that coincided with, like, real-world issues. Like, there was the oil embargo, and that impacted people's ability to go out and, you know, take road trips and whatnot. So what do they do?

I played video games at home. So there is that aspect. And, you know, for me, it's really fascinating to see how people were playing their games. You know, we talked about, you know, in South America, they played, like, master system stuff. You could look at how big S&K NeoGeo bootleg games were in Latin America and in Africa and the Middle East. And that's a whole, like, realm of video game history that I find fascinating. Just that's not necessarily the corporate history. It's the history of how things were played.

I'm blanking on the actual term. I know there is one. Ludo-ludology? Sure, we'll go with that. Sounds right. But yeah, to your answer, you know, video game history is really cool because, yeah, there's a history behind the games,

and you can see how the industry and these genres have developed over time and how everything is really much more interlinked than you think. Like, there's not really a clean break between, you know, the U.S. market collapsing in 83 and everything else coming back in like 85 86 like no there is still like a continuum there but also you know part of that story is people were playing the games not just these

corporations and you know what were they doing with them what were they thinking about them and that is very fascinating to me yeah that that's something that i i really admire when when people look beyond the sort of mainstream narratives about video games and video game history and talk about stuff in America and stuff in Japan and to a less degree stuff in Europe and really start looking to other cultures, other societies, and countries

and saying, what was the point of video games there? Like, what was the path? And it's really difficult because the documentation's not good and for someone on the outside looking in. Like me trying to write a history of Taiwanese bootleg Famicom games. is practically impossible. I can, you know, I've made a video that kind of elided a lot of details and just sort of glossed

over it to mostly just say, like, this was a thing that happened, and somehow Jackie Chan was involved, but that's about as deep as I could get. And I want more people, you know, I really hope that there are people out there who have that knowledge, who have that experience, and the ability to, you know, research in their native language and bring that to international audiences. And that's a lot to expect. I mean, there are all kinds of incredible books on video games in Japan that had never been localized into English.

So, you know, to take that a few steps removed and say, like, yeah, a book written in, you know, Mandarin for the Chinese market or in Russian, you know, for Russia, like expecting those to be localized for the, you know, English-speaking international audience is a it's kind of like asking for a miracle but I still you know anytime someone

kind of chips away at that and cracks that that veil open a little bit it's always very exciting in that respect GameCNRCX is a pretty important historical document not just because he has interviews with people like Satoshi

Tajiri who made Pokemon in, like, 2003, a very specific moment in time. But also because of the travelogues, where he goes to Russia and Korea and France and Cambodia and explores the gaming culture there. And having people who are actually from those cultures talking about the games that they're really into, that's really important, I think.

Yeah. And even just to, like, the show's trips to, you know, arcades and candy stores and toy shops. Like a lot of those don't exist anymore. Circul like 2005? Yeah, and that show is like your glimpse into that period of video gaming in Japan. And yeah, people have written about it and you can find information about it. But here's someone who was there firsthand and here's footage firsthand of these games.

It's a Game Center CX movie is terrible, but it's framed within very specific Japanese nostalgia for the mid-80s in that respect is sort of worth watching. I actually haven't... I don't know anything about the movie. Why is it terrible?

Because one part of it, half of it is just sort of a cornball nostalgia piece about a kid who's playing Famicom and being kind of bullied. And the other part is a repurposed episode

of Game Center CX where he's trying to beat... What was it? Mighty Bomb Jack, I think? All thanks. And then he weirdly combined the two and I don't really understand how, but... It sounds like an ever-ending story when the guy comes out of the book

and, like, you know, Thalcor throws the bullies in the garbage can. They did find an OG, like, one of the only remaining Famicom disc system kiosk that was still in, like, good condition. They borrowed it for Nintendo and used it as a prop in the movie. Wow. Yeah, the kid goes and, like, is... It's just basically a succession of, remember that? Remember that? Remember that? Remember that?

And that was like one of the things. At the end. Pretty much. Thanks for watching. But it was actually, it is interesting, though, to be like, to hear sort of, what were they talking about that at that time? Like, what was interesting to them? What was the discourse, et cetera? I like time traveling.

That's how I time travel. I did, like, back at Magfest in January, I co-hosted a panel about the history of space invaders. And there's a Game Center CX episode in 2008. during, I think it was the 40th anniversary of the game, or 30th? Yeah, 30th. And they had a special version of it made where Arnoe did all the sound effects, and like his head was the UFO. And, like, this is the only place I've heard of this is this TV show.

And, like, they toured it around, and they, like, showed some footage of it in the different locations, and they showed, like, a little museum piece. I remember. I remember, yeah. Yeah, that Taito had. And, like, that's really cool. That's the kind of, like, a company celebrating its history that, yeah, that would normally just be lost to time. But here it is.

He had an unusual amount of access to Nintendo, which is a very secretive company. So, you know, NCL specifically. And that, that, too, is kind of like, wow, okay, it's so interesting. So, there you go. Got to get Arno on this show sometime. Seriously. Make it happen, Bob. But don't see it happening anytime soon.

Yeah. We can get Ray Barnhold on. He's kind of like the son of Arno. He's just met him. He has. Oh, really? I didn't know that. Oh, yeah, he was dressed up in his full cacho outfit. Really?

And, yeah, I think he's on an episode, isn't he? He is. The episode when Arino comes to America, which kills me to know that he was in San Francisco. He went to an arcade that no longer exists that I used to frequent. And then he goes down to L.A. And he's doing a meetup with American fans. and Ray shows up wearing the full outfit, and he gets extended screen time,

gets interviewed and everything. And Bob's future wife, Nina Matsumoto, like, you see them saying, here's some artwork from a woman named Nina Matsumoto who's been localizing the episode. He's like, whoa. And then she started doing all the art for the episodes. It's so cool.

That's amazing. I didn't even know that. This is a lot of history. A lot of retronauts history in that episode. Yeah, she's friends with that crew. That's really fun. No, they're going to the, 20th anniversary. It's so cool.

Oh, is that in, uh, it's happening this year. Because I have a friend who's also got a ticket to that October show. I want to go. It's a TGS? Uh, maybe he'll be in Soda Pubpinski. There you go. All right, so Nadia, now I put the question to you. What's so great about video game history? Well, I mean, it's just to...

This is going to sound stupid, but video game history can't not exist because we have history about film, we have history about books, history of everything, every piece of media that we do. So there's got to be video game history. And we had talking earlier about, like, technical, and whatnot, going back to some of these games and learning about like the shortcuts and things that programmers did to get their vision into these tiny little cartridges and whatnot,

they wouldn't do that if they weren't making some kind of art. They wouldn't care. They would just be like, oh, this is for dollars, this is for money, shove it out the door, it's good, but no, they did care. And the way also that video game media intertwined with all other media, like I saw we've all gone probably to symphonies based on video game things like I just saw the symphony for Final Fantasy 14

and I'm... Oh yeah I read about how you wept I was trying literally not to like sob out loud because this is one particular song and how it related to the story of that particular part of the game but video games can do that they can do that to us to do anyone

yeah exactly and that's why I just think like not only are, it's almost like video games aren't a thing by themselves. They're just all these food groups of media that come together. And how could you not have history about that? Especially considering how fast video games moved. Um, when you think about like the, the timeline of video game history, it's insane where we are from here I am sitting remembering, you know, crap like, not really Pong, but like, you know, the Atari 20600 and whatnot. And here I am now where virtual reality is just like

well virtuality sucks forget that but like you have these incredible massive games like Eldon Ring like Final Fantasy 14 like just Zelda Cheers of the Kingdom that game is a miracle that game and how long has been from these single stream games to that

that's just kind of crazy so there is again how can you not have history around something that evolved so rapidly and intertwined with culture now in so many meaningful ways like COVID change

video games in many ways like first of all brought even more people into the fray in a way it's kind of been like almost bad for the industry because they made all those profits because everyone was stuck at home everyone's saying where's the money now

like it's just video games are just tied into everything it's in our blood deal with it yeah you know 15 years ago say before online video game culture imploded into a singularity of chuds and shit there was a lot of

hand-wringing about what is the citizen cane of video games who is the you know the lester bangs of video games it's metric prime by the way it's established by science canonically just people you know desperately trying to justify the validity

of video games as a medium like oh Roger Ebert doesn't think we're art but he's wrong have you ever played a little game called Shadow of the Colossus? Play flower. There was a whole lot of hand-wringing about that sort of thing. But no one was really asking, like, who is the Kin Burns of video games? Who is, you know, the James Michener of video games?

You know, someone who's really making an effort to document the past and to re-contextualize it for people in an easy-to-digest way. And at the time, I don't really think there was. I think now we have an embarrassment of riches. You have people like, you know, Norman Caruso, the gaming historian, and other people who really take it seriously, do a meaningful job. You know, even Kevin here, you know, you put so much effort into research and sourcing and really hunting down contemporary sources of information about things to properly put them in their context. Frank Zafaldi. Yeah, Frank, for sure.

The literal nonprofit dedicated to preservation invaluable work. Yeah, and this stuff wasn't happening a decade ago. No. So, you know, things have really improved a lot. I agree. Just in that past 10 years or so. Like the present of video games, sometimes I really question it. But I feel like the past of video games is an increasingly good hand.

The biggest concern being that the people who were there, making it happen you know they're getting older and they're not going to be around forever and we've already lost a lot of pioneers of video games like Ralph Baer and Jerry Lawson and so forth and like these people need to be

spoken to and interviewed and have their thoughts put down for the record to get those stories directly even if they are distorted by memory and time and fallibility like still getting those perspectives and you know, even what someone remembers of what they did,

even if it's not totally accurate and glossed over, that's still meaningful. Like, it says, you know, here's what the people who worked on these games felt was worth remembering or how they perceived things and what mattered to them. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think I'm actually very worried about how crunch affects video game history because I, when Shigeruimiyomoto is like, oh, cool, look at these design documents. into found. Let's all look at this. We should have so much more of that than we do. But video game developers for the most part are just ground up and spit out and they burn out and they crash and they burn by the time they're 40 if they get that far. And just as has been said several times,

first by Chris Kohler, the reason why Tears of the Kingdom was so good is because you had a lifelong Zelda team working on it. We don't have those lifelong teams anymore and I feel like we don't have those lifelong teams and those mentors. We lose so much in the way of history, especially since they get burned out and bitter on games, and they don't want to talk about it. Why would they? So I think treating, like, just, you know,

making the industry a better place to work will be really a huge asset to game preservation in the future. Yeah, it's really, it just, it's really devastating that we lost Satoro Iwada because he was the one person who had the clout and the motivation to break through Nintendo's veil of disinterest, and publicizing its past and making that available to people.

And, like, you know, just the human loss of Iwada's passing, of course, was really significant. But there was also that element of video game history and, you know, the doors just sealed up after that. And it's really a shit. Yeah, like, just thinking how we lost Iwada asks and how much we learned from Iwada asks.

Hugely valuable. Hugely valuable. And it's just like, that was a huge, huge loss for the industry. So returning to Game Center CX for a hot second, the Arino interview with Iwada where he came in and played balloon fight and talked about working on it and programming it and everything. That was really cool.

Yeah, that must have been amazing. It was almost like an oral history going on right there. Yeah, it's always fun. When you interview someone who worked on a game and you can pull out at the game and talk about it, even if it's something they haven't seen in decades, like literal decades,

and they're like, oh yeah, I remember this part of it. I remember doing the graphics for this. remember, this is why I made it like this. Yeah. And it's worth talking very briefly about how it intertwines with the story of tech, which is such an important part of her. Certainly the last 40 to 50 years. Actually, you all met Amy, who's been with me.

She's a programmer, and she just, out of curiosity, decided to try and learn how to write a Super Nintendo game. Yeah. And so she made a very simple one. She's like, oh, yeah, it was all in assembly. like this is so interesting like moving everything the language in which games wrote were wrote was the DNA of so much of the rest of our technology and it's worth um exploring that to understand how we got to where we are in some ways it's a little dystopian but you know well that's that's the tech

industry for you yeah that's a tech industry for yeah but yeah it is i mean for you not Colin Bushnell had Steve Jobs working at Atari. I mean, Steve Wozniak was sneaking in to change chips, you know, and out-of-Arcade games. I mean, come on. They tried to hire Steve Wozniak because they liked him so much more than Steve Jobs. But he was working at some other, like, tech company that had nothing to do with games, and he was happy there. Like, yeah, it was such an insular, like, um,

I can't blanking on the word again. I'm sorry, I need more caffeine. It's a little late for that. Yeah. Yeah, they were just very intertwined, like you said, and they still are. People hop in and out of video games into the rest of the tech world.

But, you know, even back in the day, like Atari and Fairchild were just, like, down the street from each other. So people who worked at one, like they just bounced to the other one when they were done at the Fairchild. That's kind of like all the Montreal Studios. Yeah.

I don't know what I'm going to be able to be. So I am here with, please introduce yourself and tell us what you do. Sure. I'm Rachel Simone Weil. I'm an NES homebrew developer slash artist, and I also run Femicom Museum, which preserves a history of girls, video games, and electronic toys. So that seems like a very specific kind of thing to focus on. Tell me about what got you interested in that in the first place and made you decide. like, this is not just, you know, a hobby, but something I actually want to pursue academically. Sure, yeah. So I started collecting NES games and kind of getting into video game collector culture in maybe the early 2000s. And I was kind of interested in, you know, I noticed that a lot of video game history was, people were nostalgic for these old games, and it was reminiscent of their

childhood. And for me, I didn't grow up with video game consoles. And I started thinking about what I was nostalgic for. And my childhood was a lot of Barbies and my little pony and Hello Kitty and stuff like that. So I started to think, well, maybe there were games like that that I just never knew about. So I started looking into what kind of, you know, these sort of stereotypically girly games were available in the 80s and 90s when I would have been a kid. And it was really hard to find information about them. it seemed like they existed, but everything I found was incomplete or, you know, people were just making fun of the games, and it was a little disheartening. So I started trying to contribute to existing video game databases online, so I thought, oh, I'll fill these gaps, you know, I'm just the right person, and often my edits would be rejected because people thought, well, these aren't real video games, they are not worthy of preservation.

And it was, on the one hand, it was upsetting, but I saw it as an opportunity of like, okay, if you won't let me participate in your video game databases, I'll make a concerted effort to preserve these on my own. And that was kind of how Fanniecom came about. Okay. So looking at the broader picture of things, what's so great about video game history? Like, why is it even worth preserving in any facet, girl-oriented or not? Yeah, that's a big question.

I think for me, you know, I always think of video game history not so much as like buying the game and putting it on a shelf or buying the game and photographing it and putting it online, although those things are good. For me, I think history and video game history are tools for thinking about our culture, what matter to us, and also a tool for imagining how things could have been different. So, you know, I love making homebrew games, and part of that is reimagining a different past. So I love that aspect of video game histories, learning how these things work, and then making authentic forgeries and authentic what-if kind of scenarios. So what would your advice be to someone who also takes an interest in curating video game history on trying to discover the uncronicled corners of its past. Yeah, I would say I think it's really important.

I always encourage people to get in touch with the things they're really nostalgic for. I feel like video game collecting culture and retro gaming as sort of a scene makes a lot of assumptions about nostalgia. It's like, oh, Mario, we're so nostalgic for that. We were so nostalgic for Zelda or 8-bit or whatever. And it took a lot of perseverance to really think, you know what, that's not what I grew up with. I grew up playing electronic dream phone, and there's no pre-packaged nostalgia for that. I can't go buy a shirt with that game on it, but that doesn't mean it's not worth remembering and reconsidering. So I think it's quite easy with, you know, the sort of retro merch universe.

to get sort of sidelined into what other people think is nostalgic for us and not really think about our own childhood. So it took quite a bit of discipline into that. But for myself, I always think, you know, what were those things I really liked, those little keychains that nobody remembers or little electronic board games or fortune tellers or things like that. And those are really interesting avenues to explore, because often they're unexplored.

And you can always find new things that no one else has thought about or written about. Great. Thanks for your time and also for your efforts. Thanks that. And I'm here with another video game history, Luminary. Please introduce yourself. My name is Leonard Herman.

I'm the author of Phoenix for the history of the video game industry. It was the first ever book out on video game in history back in 1994. So I basically started video game history. Yeah, so you're kind of the, the OG of video game history. So I have to ask you, what's so great about video game history?

What makes you want to write about it and preserve it? Well, when I started the book, as I said, there were no books on it, and that was a subject I was interested in. Just for my own personal, there's more I wanted to read about how this stuff started. And so, because there were no books, I wrote my own. And what's amazing about history, there's always new stuff unfolding. It's like being an archaeologist, finding, uncovering new stuff and writing about it. And that's one of the fun things about my book is I'm always updating it with new old information.

So you're working on a new edition of Phoenix now. I don't know if you want to talk about that at all. But what kind of, maybe like, tell us an interesting thing or two that you've discovered for this. edition that wasn't in the previous ones that we can look forward to? Well, the new edition, Phoenix Five, the history of the video game industry, will have six new chapters, 2018, 19, 20, 21, 22. Possibly I might even go through 2023. I want to do a new chapter on the Amico because that's been a big fiasco and major news for the last four years. And I've just uncovered some old stuff too for the

The first, it's going to be a two-volume set. First volume will be up to the first 25 years. Second volume will be a second 25 years. And even the first volume isn't going to be just a reprint of the original Phoenix. There's going to be new information. And off the top of my head, I don't remember what I have in there. Sorry. No, I understand.

It's two very big books, and that's a lot of information to keep up with. Final question for you, though. So what would your advice be to someone who wants to start really exploring video game history? Where would you say they should start? And, you know, what's your recommendation there? Well, of course, I'm going to recommend my book. But in 2008, Game Informer listed the top 10 video game books to read. Number two was Phoenix.

And what they wrote about, and I always remember that, they said in any history, anyone interested in the history of video games, this is always the book to start with because it's almost like it's an overview of the entire industry. And then from that, you can go on to more specialized books. All right, thanks, Leonard. Looking forward to checking out the next volume. Yeah, going back to something back to something Nadia was talking about, you know, the difficulty of getting access to this information.

One thing that always really frustrated me when I was on the Games Press is that so much of information about video games and access to game developers is watchdogged by marketing and PR. Yes. And they are only interested in putting forward the narrative that's going to sell the newest thing that is coming out in three to six months and anything beyond that that is not currently making the money, it's really hard to convince them.

to open up about that. And I had so many requests to speak to developers shot down just because it wasn't part of the marketing plan. Yeah, I've been there. There were some good people in the PR side of things who understood what I was after and would go to bat for me. And I'm really grateful to people like that. You know, at the time the head of Square Nix PR in the U.S.

made a formal introduction to Japanese PR for me and that opened up doors so that when I was in Japan and I put in requests like hey I'd like to speak to this guy about a game he made 20 years ago they would actually

go to the developer and say are you okay doing this and sometimes the developer would be like I don't have time for that but a lot of times the developer would be like hell yes like the Western press wants to talk to me

about work that I did that's never covered, never publicized? Absolutely. And, you know, those precious connections, I really, like, those are maybe the thing I miss most about being in the press is having that access and having those, you know, relationships where I could actually get a hold of that information. And there were just a few.

They weren't common, but they were very, very valuable because they were a chance to get beyond the, you know, the marketing cycle, the PR cycle, of upcoming product releases and, you know, games as a service and things like that and really get to kind of the heart and soul of these studios and the people

who had been there for decades and, you know, kind of were the pillars, you know, the foundations of everything that people there were working on at the time. So I guess it's my turn to answer what's so great about video game history. I've been forcing all of you

to answer this difficult question. And I guess now I don't want to sound too much like I'm just repeating what you've said but you know I feel that for anyone who is interested in video games it's it's important to understand where they came from like if you have more than a passing interest if you have a genuine love for the medium I think you naturally just want to understand like you know how did these these concepts come around, like this thing that I'm playing and loved, you know, where is it from? And I think, you know, as you begin to kind of dive into that, you start to discover like there's

some really great ideas that were invented decades ago. And there were some really great ideas that never actually went anywhere. And it's a shame because there's kernels of inspiration that someone could jump onto now and build something that would feel fresh and invented. But, you know, I guess ultimately I never stopped loving the games that I grew up on and it's not just a nostalgia thing. Like I go back and replay games for my NES videos and so forth and, you know, I can appreciate the fact that,

hey, some of these games that I played and enjoyed, like they're kind of bad. But a lot of them, you know, if you can get past the technical limitations and, you know, sometimes the lopsided balancing and lack of quality of life, there's still something great, just fundamentally great there. And I think, you know, enjoying a classic video game is like enjoying a classic movie.

Or, you know, I've watched a lot of Doctor Who, you know, vintage Doctor Who over the past few years. And enjoying an old video game is kind of like enjoying a 70s episode of Doctor Who. Like, yes, the special effects are bad. You can tell these are people in very cheap costumes that were created very quickly. by the BBC Props Department and there's a lot of flubs and errors because they just didn't have the budget to use film on multiple takes

and that's okay because there's still a lot of creativity happening and a lot of earnestness and I think maybe that's the best way to sum up what I love about classic games is there is an earnestness about it obviously everyone has out to make money but no one has to make money,

but no one ever sets out to make a bad video game. When people are assigned to make a video game, even if it's the 1,000th Mahjong game for that given year, they're still going to try to do something interesting with it, to make it competent, or to say, well, everyone has a mahjong game, so here's one where you can play against Marilyn Monroe and Mr. Spock. You know, just do something really random and weird, just to get some personality. TSD, don't you?

I do a little bit, but, you know, I can still respect the fact that when I come across one that's, you know, it does something that the other games haven't done. I respect that because, you know, it is kind of a marketing tactic like, hey, it's Mahjong, but now there's this. But also, it's the people who are making it saying, like, let's do something new. Let's do something different. We've got a very, very limited box to work inside of, but we can still express ourselves with this limited set of tools. And I think that's great. Yeah. It's about human creativity by God. There you go.

So my final question for all of you is, what would your advice be to someone who wants to develop a better appreciation and understanding of video game history. Nadia, let's start with you. I guess basically you are, there's a wealth of information out there. Frankly, you kids today are a lot more spoiled than that than, like, we were at the time.

I would say, given the internet and how many people have the interest in preserving history and talking about it and recording it, look at all us nerds, like if someone comes up to me and says, hey, you had this quote about this, like someone actually came up pretty recently and asked that they could use, like, part of the Ted Woolsey article

I wrote for, like, you know, a project, or I've actually been quoted in thesis as well. What's the thorough? Theses. Theses. I'm like, thesis. So there you go. Stuff like that makes me really happy.

Like, hey, you know all the stuff about video games. Can I ask you a question? And I'll say, sure, every single time. One of the funniest things about my life is that, of all the people in the world, my gastroenterologist, that is my ass doctor, is extremely interested in what I do, and he's a boomer, like, he's at age. But he's, like, so fascinated with the idea of, like,

making a career at a video games. He has all these questions for me, like, oh, I have this other patient who plays him professionally. How is that possible? Like, what is that like? And I have the answers for him most of the time, and I just, like, I love the fact that you're asking me these questions instead of saying video games are stupid.

Usually if I go up to someone that age and say, oh, yeah, I'm involved in video games. You will get people who get really over-excited about it, And that's fine. It's still like talking to you. But you do get the people who are like, oh, you're Satan, and you corrupt children. And that's just like, what a useless, stupid pursuit. And it's not.

Video games, they're like any other form of art. So if you're curious, ask. That's it. What about you? Engage with primary sources wherever possible. Play the actual games, if you can. even though original games

are hard to get in this day and age harder and harder especially with CR televisions and such becoming difficult to come by like you do need some money to be able to do it

if you can I recommend it thankfully there are a lot of hobbyists out there and a lot of good retro shops where probably you can go and try this stuff and I would say also get

outside your comfort zone leave the stuff that was you're nostalgic for and branch out and find interesting things. And then also go back to the books that were written in that time by the people who made these games. I think all of us read Game Over. That was exactly the only book available for a long, long time.

Yes, that is a great book to read. It was. It was like the first really comprehensive video game book that I read. And it's still full of good information today. I think most of it still, I don't know how much of it was just proven, if at all, but I think it's still a very good book. I'm sure that there are... I'm sure there are errors. There are some inaccuracies, yeah, or some exaggerations.

Go back through the old Iwana asks. I'm sure Jeremy could recommend some good books as well, but yeah, read some good books and play some good old video games. There you go. That's all you need to do. There you go. So, I'm going to say, my best advice is to keep an open mind. You mentioned, you know, play some old games and try them out for yourself and look for primary sources, but, and that's all very important. And I feel like, you know, going into a game or a piece or part of history with an open mind, you know, accept that you're going to have some preconceptions and they might be wrong and, you know, see what you can take away from it. Because, you know, even something that was unsuccessful or bad, like, there could be something interesting to it.

I mean, I wouldn't have guessed that, you know, RCA's crummy home video game system was, had an interesting story to it. But then I delved into it and, like, oh, this is a guy who really wanted to make a home computer you could play games on in, like, the 60s. And this was sort of the fruits of his, you know, basement efforts. That's cool. That's a really neat, like, story in a part of the world of tech that is completely cut off from Silicon Valley. So, like, yeah, maybe something isn't very good. Maybe there's not a lot of great sources out there.

But if you dig around, you can find some good stuff. And actually, that brings me to a second piece of advice is, you know, look into your local history, you know. Yeah, absolutely. You're wherever you lived, you probably had, you know, arcades in that area or game shops or or maybe you had developers in that area and those can be interesting stories. I remember when I was working as a reporter I

found a group that had a video game club and they would write to all the game companies at the time circa like 82, 83 and they got a bunch of stuff to donate to the local children's hospital and I got to talk to one of the guys who did that back in the day and you know catch up on Like, how did that go? Like, what happened to that group eventually? And that was super interesting. A piece of really hyper-local game history.

I guess my advice would be just follow your interests, you know, let it evolve naturally. If you're starting from zero, you know, just kind of poke around and find low effort entry points. something like Nintendo Switch Online, you know. It's got a bunch of video games. It's a cheap subscription. You can try them for a very low price and get a pretty broad range of things there across mostly Nintendo systems,

but some Sega stuff also. Look up online resources as you start to, you know, say how can I have a better experience? How can I play these things and learn about them in, you know, a better way? There are great sites like Retro-RGB

that will give you recommendations on different approaches to achieve a certain degree of fidelity at very different price points. Like, if you don't have a lot of money, that's okay. You can still have a great time exploring video game history. And, you know, if you have a lot more money, you still want to spend it wisely. So it's good to look up these references

so that you're not just throwing, you know, good money after bad. but just kind of see where your interests take you. Maybe you love Nintendo games, maybe you can't stand Nintendo. Maybe you just really want to explore Japanese games, or maybe you want to study, you know, old war games for personal computers. There are so many different areas of interest about video games that, you know, just find the thing that fascinates you. And, you know, I'm not saying hyperfixate on it,

but you know immerse yourself and take the time to really just enjoy it and if you find yourself curious to learn more you know start researching start looking things up go out and find sources that no one has bothered to put on the internet there's plenty out there that's what libraries are for and microfish readers and all those indices and things like that Kevin can give you some pointers there I'm sure. I'm not that good at it, but, you know, it's especially important to understand how to research effectively these days as internet search becomes less and less useful. As Google has become, it stopped being a key source of information, no nonsense, no fluff,

to, like, mostly where you're going to find is garbage and ads. But that doesn't mean that the information isn't out there, and it doesn't mean that you can't find it. You just have to be cannier about it. I recommend old interviews. Somebody compiled every single Miyamoto interview going back to the mid-80s. There's some good ones in there. Also, Schmufflation's who has a lot of great work.

Invaliable Service finding so many old magazine interviews, and you can find a lot of great info from the developers themselves in these interviews. We can learn a lot. Yeah, and, you know, there's so much stuff on the Internet Archive. There's entire websites on the Internet Archive, Wayback Machine, that have valuable information and articles like U.S. gamers on there in its entirety. Yep, I pour one out for that. Not really. I don't want to break this TV. Or I remember when I was researching the Superman Atari 2,600 game, which is like an adventure-style game that came out a few months before. adventure. The author of that game died in like 2017 and he had done one interview that was no

longer online, but I found it on the internet archive way back machine and it was very in-depth and wide-ranging and thank God that guy got him back in 2002. All right, well that I think wraps up our time we've got five minutes left on our tape here somehow so we have to seal it shut now. But I want to thank the three of you for your time and your thoughts. This was a great conversation. A lot of food for thought, and I really enjoyed it. Hopefully everyone at home has enjoyed it. But in the meantime, Kat, Nadia, Kevin, please let us know where we can find you on the internet. Yeah, you can find me on Twitter at the underscore Katbot. I'm also the host of Axel the Blood God and RPG podcast. You've probably heard of it. That's bloodgodpod.com.

various, you know, video, podcast feeds, and then my day job is at IGN.com. Nadia? Well, Kat already did the hard part, so I'll just say I'm on Twitter and Blue Sky at Nadia Oxford. Yeah, and hang out. I'm on Twitter and Blue Sky under Ubersaurus. I have my Atari Archive YouTube channel

and a Patreon also under the name Atari Archive and a book. that you can purchase today if you really wanted to learn a bunch video game history from the 70s Atari Archive Volume 1

And you can find me Jeremy Parrish On the internet All kinds of places Such as here at Retronauts On social media Twitter When I post there

It's under Games Fight But mostly you'll find me On Blue Sky posting as Jeremy. J. Parrish Or J. Parrish I can't actually remember right now I'm on Blue Sky

I look me up if you're there you can find me on YouTube as Jeremy Parrish and at Limited Run Games making books and helping other people to publish their books and I think that's it for the segment I think that's it for the segment All right, and I've saved maybe the best for last, at least the most invested for last. Please introduce yourself.

Hi, I'm Frank Sefaldi. Frequent Retronauts guest. We don't really need an intro for this audience. And founder and director of the Video Game History Foundation. So, Frank, let me ask you, as someone who has dedicated, Basically, his life to preserving video game history and its ephemera. What's so great about video game history? Video game history isn't like a vacuum.

You know what I mean? Like, video games are a part of who we all are as a culture. And in order to understand, like, literally who we are where we came from, you know, video games are just a core component of that. And it's just a part of culture that I felt and kind of, kind of feel wasn't really studied in an appropriate way. We tend to view, especially older video game history as something to be nostalgic for from our personal experiences or the history of commercial product, right?

We don't tend to think of game history, and by we, I mean, you know, the broader audience as a part of our actual culture and where we came from. And so my motivation is really just kind of filling in the cracks of our understanding of where games came from so that we understand where we came from. Was there a moment where this crystallized for you? I mean, I know you got your start way back in the early days of emulation writing about this stuff and, you know, just kind of a almost like a rabble rouser upstart in forums, like trying to find soft. where no one had seen or that was canceled or whatever. But was there a moment where you were like,

this is, you know, like in Close Encounters of the Third Kind, looking at the mashed potato mountain and saying, this means something. Ah, wow. I think for video games in general, that was the first time I played the Secret of Monkey Island. So prior to that, video games to me were just an extension of toys.

You know, like I had a Nintendo. I had some games. I also had action figures. They were just toys that I played. I didn't think of them as being anything more than that. I think The Secret of Mucky Island, the first time I played it, I would have been like 14, 13, something like that. And that was the first time that I went,

oh, these can say something. Like, video games can be funny. They can have characters I care about. They can make me feel like I'm inhabiting a space. you know because prior to that it's really just Mario jumping around is kind of all I knew so that was maybe my moment for that aspect I think you're thinking more you're asking more about like was there a moment where it clicked for me that like hit the I need to help preserve right um I don't know because like I I think that I don't think there was like this solid

you know, a clean narrative for my origin for that, you know, like, I think the story I often tell and I've told it so often that at this point I don't even know if it's true anymore or from just like adding to my own mythology, right? But like, I saw a documentary on film preservation. And it, you know, they talk to the film foundation. They talk probably to Martin Sorcei. And they had that stat, that really scary stat, 90% of silent film, you know, American cinema made before, I think, 1929, is gone forever. And if I had a moment, it was like watching that while thinking about games and emulation and going, wait a minute, like, are we doing that same thing again? And for me at the time, it was, oh, no one's paying attention to the games that never

came out. That's really a part of the canon. That's part, like, these games that are like done and never sold sometimes that were like by real people and I felt that was like the sort of missing link in a lot of careers and stories that wasn't being preserved um I think as time has gone on what what I might my equivalent for the Scorsese number uh has actually been for like the actual source code behind these games like the the raw material that went into them but I'm kind of going off on a tangent here but but the point is I think that if I if I had a moment it was seeing would happen to movies while being interested in revisiting video gaming's past and those two things jelling for me. So final question, I feel like you work, you know, in terms of preservation on a lot

of different axes, you know, with just kind of working in different areas, no one specific one. But if you had to pick one, what would you say, is it possible to pick one? What is the, like, single most important thing about video games to preserve? What knowledge or content? You know, the way I've sort of shaped where I fit in is kind of based around this. And it's not a matter of what's most important. It's a matter of what's not being done. Is that a fair way of going? Okay.

So for me, like, I recognize pretty early on that access to playing games is not an issue. Like, we all know how to do it. That might change with, like, current stuff, right? But in terms of the past, in terms of the stuff I was focusing on, we all know how to access the game. And so, for me, the most important stuff is not games, it's context. It's the history around, I mean, you know. Like, yeah, you were nodding very enthusiastic because you're Jeremy Parrish.

Like, that's the stuff that's most in danger is understanding the world that surrounded this game. Because we have the game. We can turn on a game and just play it and interpolate, maybe interprets the better word, you know, some things about it, right? Like we understand how it's plays, how it looks, how it sounds, if it's fun or not. But we don't understand why this was made, who it was made for, who was competing against. Like, a lot of times we don't even know who the people were that made the thing.

And that, to me, is the most important thing to capture. All right. Well, thanks, Frank. Thanks for your time. Yeah, anytime, man. Thanks, everyone for listening. This has been a great, interesting, multi-perspective Retronauts episode. Hope you've enjoyed it as much as we have enjoyed putting it together. As always, you can find Retronauts online

on all your favorite podcast broadcasting devices and platforms except Spotify. And you can support us on Patreon. Patreon.com slash Retronauts. your subscriptions keep this podcast alive and allow us to get lots of great co-hosts and guests on the show and travel to events like, travel to events like this, where we can really, you know, put our feet on the ground and learn about the way people play video games and experience retro gaming the way it really ought to be, communally. So thank you for your support, and we do offer something in return for your support. We offer at the standard rate every episode a week in advance at a higher bit rate quality than you get on the public bead.

But for a little extra, $5 a month, you also get multiple exclusive episodes each month, as well as weekly columns and mini podcast by Diamond Fight and Discord access. So check us out, patreon.com slash retronauts, and we'll be back pretty soon with another episode for you to enjoy. Thanks again for listening. It's in the in the in it's from

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