Retronauts - 566: Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door

Episode Date: October 16, 2023

Nadia Oxford joins Stuart Gipp and David Oxford as they talk about Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door's charm and wit. There's a reason this game is still folded tightly in the hearts of GameCube owners. Art by Amanda Neipris; edits by Greg Leahy. This episode sponsored by Harry's. Retronauts is made possible by listener support through Patreon! Support the show to enjoy ad-free early access, better audio quality, and great exclusive content. Learn more at http://www.patreon.com/retronauts

This episode of Retronauts is brought to you by Harry's. This week on Retronauts, how sharper than a plumber's paper cut. Welcome to this paper-thin edition of Retronauts. I'm your host, Nadia Oxford. With me, our two esteemed guests. First of all, we have our good friend, Stuart Gipp. Say hello, Gip. Oh, hello.

It's Jip, actually, but that's okay. Jip, I'm so sorry. It's good. It means that you read, and that's a good thing. But you're more the zh, the nice thing. Yeah, it's more sort of French, except not in any way on any level. Yeah, it's just kind of like, you got the sophistication, but I'll remember that. We also have...

You're more Jiff than less skiff. Well, now you just spoiled her presence to say I have my husband here as well, David Oxford. Say hi. Hello. Tell us about yourself. I've got to have you on the show. We've been married for 10,000 years. Give or take.

Yeah, yeah. But I wanted you both here because you're both, as I understand it, and as I can vote for David, huge fans of Paper Mario, the Thousand Year Door, which is our topic today, especially because there is a remake coming out in 2024. Are you guys excited for this remake? I'm very excited about it. I'm excited about the MarioPG remake as well. I think we're eating good, basically, yes.

They're both looking good. I mean, with a thousand-year-door, all it really needs is just to be re-released, more or less as is, but maybe HD'd, but, you know, I don't think anything to change to much else, but I'm pretty sure we're going to get into that, so I'll leave it for now. Yeah, for sure. David, I know you're excited. I think I'm still in the shocked phase that they're even doing it, but much less excited.

Yeah, but as I, to restate here, we are gathered here to Tate to talk about Paper Mario a thousand-year-door is a beloved GameCube RPG developed by intelligence systems and published by Nintendo in 2004. It's the second Paper Mario game following the first on the NCC4. Some would argue that it's the quote-unquote last real Paper Mario RPG. We'll get into that, I'm sure. Tut, tut. Exactly. No, I have opinions as well, but Thousand Yer Dora was directed by Ryota Kowade of Intelligent Systems. Chief artist is Chia Kowabi, who is also illustrated the first game as well as the Advanced Wars games. Composers are Yuka Tsoyoko, who now does a whole lot of, like, Fireman music, and Hironobu Suzuki.

Paper Mario is the progenitor of the Times hit mechanics, and Thousand Year Door kind of kept that action going with button. presses. You also equipped a bunch of badges to boost your power. You have a lot of friends to help you in battle. Each one wield some kind of special skill. I always stuck with Coops, though. So we'll talk a little bit more about characters in just a moment. But yeah, I guess I suppose my weakness about Mario RPG, sorry, about a thousand year door, is that I really stuck with Coops. He's just such a tank as well as a tank buster. He's, he's my homeboy and he's wearing a jumper somehow. Who is your like go-to companion, if you guys remember? I think it's okay to call it Mario RPG because like what?

Paper Mario in Japan was Mario is Mario or was it? But then this would be Mario RPG 3, so it's fine. It's not a problem. It's kind of like calling Mario World Mario 4. Mario and Luigi came out before this. So is that Mario RPG 3? Who knows? Castor to the internet, they all decide.

What was a question? Madam Flurry because of reasons. Oh, two really good big reasons? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's not, it's there's something just unreal about playing a Nintendo sort of family game where you, where you have like a wind spirit with like, well, you know what you know what I'm talking about. It's just there's something, something almost transgressive about that, you know. Nintendo is really the kings of plausible deniability. Like all of their characters, huge dump trucks these days. So it's very much on purpose.

David, I know your favorite's already, Gumbella. Yep. Why did you like her? Mostly for the tattel ability and just getting her comments on every little thing in the game. She would be the one I'd keep by my side. Not to mention that same ability, I believe, was what let you see the life meters for enemies. So naturally, you want to have her up front and then maybe switch to someone else after, you know, getting things figured out. Yeah, I remember I tried to use Miss Mous as well because I just love the

the fact her tail was a heart. And I like the mouse characters from Super Mario in general. Yeah, but the whole lot's pretty good. I like the little spunky Yoshi guy. Yeah. Miss Mouse was good.

Gosh, who else was there? Vivian, yes. Yeah. Oh, Vivian. That seems like a topic unto herself. Yeah. My memory is escaped me. Was Vivian a partner character or just a MPC? I can't remember. She's a partner character.

She's a partner character. Her ability, I think, was analogous to, what was her name, Lady Bo from the first game? Like, she could make you invisible there while Vivian kind of pulls you into the shadows. Yeah, she's a shadow siren, which is a really cool name for a species of RPG character. While we're talking just about, oh, go ahead, David. I was just going to mention on the Mario RPG2 thing. They did change the name in Japan before it was released to Mario Story. Okay, like Yoshi's story.

Gotcha. Yeah. Everything was a story back then. Everything is still a story. It's a never-ending story, you might even say. Just kind of briefly, or it's not going to be brief, but I'll just have you spill your guts and tell me why Paper Mario a thousand-year door means. I mean, I know both that you like it, obviously, why it means so much to you. David, why don't you start?

Oh, gosh. I think when I played it, it was like back when I was just like really getting into Mario, just more and more. And the way it really expanded the world and the kind of scope of the characters with all the different types of, you know, toads and gumbas and kupas and just everything. It was just, like, I've always been really big into the world of Mario, sometimes more than Nintendo themselves, it would seem. And just the game was like pure, like, candy for me. Yeah. It was a feast. It's extremely imaginative something that I'll talk about when I get into it.

But, Stuart, why don't you talk a little about why? I mean, I have an interesting. Well, I think it's interesting because it happened to me, therefore. It's narcissistically, I think it's interesting. But my sort of journey with this game has been a bit up and down because when I originally played it back on the GameCube, I really liked it. I played it start to finish pretty much all the time that I was able to play.

I was playing this. It's not a short game by any means. No. And I made it all the way through to the final boss, got the final boss down to 2 HP left. And then I think I rolled three poison mushrooms and died. So I was like, you know what? I'm never playing this game again in my entire life. Of course, I would have gone back, but I just didn't. I was like, you know what? I'm calling that

done. That's like BS. I don't care anymore. Because there was a lot of game before that boss fight. There's a lot of cutscene to try again. I really didn't want to do it. But anyway, most of the point, I sort of went through a period where I, by proxy, kind of resented this game because of the amount of crap that the subsequent games get, which I love. I think Sticker Star is like a 10 out of 10. It's one of my favorite Nintendo games I've ever played.

Yeah, you and Parrish both will go to, we'll dive for a sticker star. And I apply that to Color Splash. I apply that to Orogrami King. I think they're all wonderful games. I recognize the criticisms of them, and I think they're very valid criticisms. I completely understand the same way they would put people off them. But for me, the scripts, the gameplay,

just, like, top tier, absolutely great. I can overlook the little mechanical oddities, like the card stuff in color splash. I can overlook that because the rest is worth it. But then, of course, when this remake gets announced, part of me is like, oh, God, they're validating all these, you know. I know it's not fair. I know it's silly, but that's how I felt in a sense.

I secretly was like, oh, they validated this. But then, of course, when this subject for this podcast comes up, I thought I'd go back and replay it for the first time in a long, long time. and it's really good, isn't it? Like, what a game that says. It's like ceaselessly creative, and it's so well written. And the script is actually better than I remember it being. I remember it being a bit staid, but it's not in the slightest.

It's, like, fuller character. Gumbella's, like, attitude is just so endearing as well. Oh, yes. And even little things in the early game, like when you go to get the stone keys and the thwump turns into, like, a game show host, and it has, like, who wants to do. be a millionaire kind of references and stuff like that. They even

take like that sort of what should be quite a boring scenario and they sort of jazz it up. And that's even before you get to like the Bowser stuff or the peach stuff or how the fact that every chapter really does play out like a separate story that you play through. I mean

I don't think it's perfect. I think there's way too much back and forth. There's a lot of back and forth. Yeah. That's the main criticism I have of it. And to be completely frank, I don't like the combat that much, but I feel like the rest of the game is worth it to push through that because I'm not a fan

of, I mean, I'm a fan of the fact that you can just randomly get hit by the scenery falling down or like a soundbag falling in you. That's funny. In theory, it's funny. When it causes you real problems in a difficult fight, that bothers me. Because that's not something you should have to guard against, really.

But there's so much going on in the combat that it just makes me my head spent, to be honest. There's a lot of, like, variables. But no, I'm getting off track. It's great. I've always liked it. I like the other, I like the sequels more because I like that kind of gameplay more,

where it's more like a kind of adventure game than an RPG. But I do, again, recognize the criticisms of the sequels, and I think they're completely fair enough. And I see why this one is held up as it is. I'm really looking forward to the remake, because it's going to be, well, I'm a little bit worried they're going to censor it a lot, but not in that kind of game. They're sort of like, oh, no, they put clothes on this,

child how dare they kind of game a thing yeah um it's more in a sort of like going to like rogue port and seeing the gallows right there in the middle like I think uh I think we've already seen like the rogue port and what I was wondering and

this kind of ties into what you're saying about the game being hilarious is that the the chalk outline of the I know I say it all the time but it's a funny thing to me of the toad now what they might censor is that in the American version that chalk outline had a spatter of blood no it didn't have a spatter of blood in Japanese version it had that spatter so I'm wondering, okay, will we have that?

Because some people are already noticing that, like, some things, like, for example, the, I think his name was Tech. He had a blue eye before because he looks so much like Hal. Now he, in the remake, he seems to have a red eye. So, I'm assuming they're going to keep as much the Japanese as they can, but I don't know if

the blood will pass. Yeah. David, do you say something? Oh, I was just going to say that I have noticed other people pointing out, actually. It seems lately that Nintendo is kind of like veering more towards the Japanese side on some of their re-releases and stuff

like the box art people are noticing it's more the Japanese style like across the globe instead of like you know the localized versions we got happy Kirby we're getting happy Kirby it's great Kirby's no longer pissed

yeah but I was bothering Kirby it's over probably because that tree is finally dead Whispy Woods has finally had it someone got it down turned into firewood No, you actually don't want mad Kirby Because if you have an angry Kirby You are literally one step away from universal annihilation

I don't think you piss off Kirby for long It says one nantic character you want on your side It's probably Kirby It's scary than like Ridley Yeah, absolutely Hi, folks, Jeremy here. As the only clean-shaven video game podcasters in America, Bob and I were thrilled to finally find a sponsor that truly gets us. Harry's. If you've ever spent any time in the shave aisle, you've probably noticed Harry's products.

And if you've used them, you know that they're as effective as they are stylish, and they're surprisingly affordable compared to shaving care from the major brands. Right now, Harry's has a special offer available to Retronauts listeners. You can get a starter set, normally a $13 value for only $3. That includes a five-blade, German-engineered razor and weighted handle, foaming shave gel, and a travel cover, all for $3. No strings attached. Simply go to harries.com slash retro and sign up for their trial, which includes a no-risk subscription to Harries that you can cancel at any time with zero fuss.

Refills on products start as low as $2, half of what you pay for other blades. Harys is confident in their products, and for good reason. They simply sell great products that offer a smooth shave, and last longer than other blades. And their other products are every bit as good as their razors, with creams, lotions, and washes. They keep your freshly shorn looks hydrated and healthy, something you'll want as we head into cold, dry winter weather.

Harry's trial is a no-brainer if you're one of the cool, clean-shaven guys like us. And even if you're not, now is your chance to cast down the tyranny of facial hair and let your underlying good look shine through, you handsome devil you. Get your best shave ever this fall with Harry's razors and skin, care products. Get a $13 starter set for just $3 at

harries.com slash retro. That's h-a-r-r-R-Y-S- dot com slash R-E-T-R-O for a $3 starter set. So if I can dial things back for a second, yeah, okay, I understand

color splash, I understand origami king. What about Sticker Star stuck out so much that I was just about to say ironically that one did not stick with me at all like the stickers

that's the joke I don't even remember much of a script for that game I think what it is is it appeals to my let's say bad taste in a sense I don't actually think it's bad taste I'm just using that as a relative short hand

because when I went back to Sticker Star earlier this week to sort of refresh my memory, the opening sequence is almost, it's almost like a, they're on purpose trying to piss you off. It's like, you don't, you need to gather all these toads. I think it's like 20-something toads. Some of them are in bunches, so it's not as bad as it sounds, but you have to peel them all off whatever they're stuck to, and then they head over to the next

area to unroll the town, literally unroll it, it's all being rolled up, and you need all of them. And they never tell you, like, this is how many there are left. It's just, Oh, you haven't got anything yet. So you're constantly looking around. And what it sort of teaches you, because you've only got these two very small spaces to work with, it teaches you organically that you're going to have to really,

can I say fuck them, plus it? Yes, you can't. You can't really fucking comb these places. You've got to do everything. You can't miss a thing. You've got to like overturn every pebble to try and find these toads. You've got to go between a space in the houses that it looks like you can't go to find the last one.

You've got to... think a lot, a lot of lateral thinking, a lot of, how can I interact with this world, but it feels like I've absolutely rinsed, I don't know what else to do, and it's still not letting me progress. And I understand that 90% of people are going to just be like, nah, screw this. I don't want to play this anymore. 10% of people, like me, who grew up playing, like, King's Quest, are just like, hell yeah, I'm going to do every, I'm going to find those toads. The thing that really sold me on it, though, is later, quite, well, not that much later you end up in a sort of pyramid and

along the line lining all the walls are coffins and you can walk up to the coffins and you can open them sometimes there'll be enemies inside sometimes there'll be stuff inside and they teach you that way that that's how you interact with the coffins you pull them open that's it and eventually I get to a point

where and I just warn you this isn't going to sound that exciting to anyone but me you get to a point where there's a spike pit that you can't get past and I'm sitting there like how the hell do you get past this? It's just there's nothing I can think of that would get me past this. I haven't

got anything that makes me jump higher. There's no moving platform or anything. There's got to be a solution maybe it's somewhere else, maybe it's through who I don't know. So I'm walking around this like maybe five, five rooms try and desperately like, look, almost walking, like you know when you're bombing every wall in Metroid. Yeah.

And eventually, for some reason it goes to me, in that room there's a coffin that's tipped over on the ground. And the solution is so simple. jump on the coffin that's tipped over, jump onto the background coffins and walk along them. And because the game has spent so much time teaching you that the only way you interact with them is by opening them, it just never sparked in my head that you could

use them as a platform. And it's this puzzle design that is almost like brain chemistry. It's like fucking with your brain. I know it sounds insane, but I... No, you actually enlightened me here, because yes, you grew up with those kind of merciless It was so, and at the moment of it, it was such a kind of, oh, my God, it's been staring me in the face this whole time. That I actually felt like borderline emotional at how happy that made me. I totally understand that. I love stuff like that. And that game is, it's completely full of it.

And again, I'm going to stress for the third time, I totally get people who hate that game. It's like fair enough. Yeah. For me, that, that was, that one was for me. That's interesting. It's like a little 3DS puzzle box. Like, every room is just, you've got to do everything in every room. And just, oh, it makes me so tingly.

I like the way the game played. I just didn't really care for the lack of story after 1,000 Udora had such a great script. But, yeah, I totally understand that, like, as it said, puzzle box design, ancient, rare sort of stuff, I suppose. Yeah, the script, I think, is still funny, but it is different because the story is quite trivial. It's not really a story game at all. And Color Splash and Origami King take that philosophy, but they kind of broaden it.

Like, Color Splash is incredibly like Sticker Star. I don't like it as much as Sticker Star because I think the combat is slightly more annoying. Yeah. Because it feels completely, in that game, it does feel irrelevant. And Sticker Star, the combat gets a lot of, like, stick, ha, ha, ha, ha. Because of the lack of XP makes it feel pointless.

But to me, it's just part of the puzzle because you've got to save those stickers you've got, because you might need them something else. They need to load up. It's almost like deck management in a sense. It very much is. And I really liked that. But Color Splash was just like, pick up the game pad and swipe those cards now.

And I'm like, please, why can't I just do this with the buttons? You can't do this with the buttons. Yeah. Come on. Please, come on. Origami King, I didn't like the combat at all on that almost ruined the game for me. But we'll probably get to that as well. Yeah.

So, two thoughts on some things you were saying there. One is when you're talking about the game show, like aspect in Thousand Year Door, that kind of reminds me how, like, it almost felt like each chapter almost had like a different kind of genre to it. Yeah, yeah. Which was a neat thing. And in a way, like with Sticker Star, it almost feels like they kind of like, you know, swapped, like hopped to a different genre altogether for that installment. Yeah, they absolutely did. It is not an RPG.

It's an adventure game with some term-based combat that's like vestigial. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely like deck building. Yeah. And that's, you know, that's a choice. It's a choice that I valued. And as a result, it puts me in a position where I have a series of RPGs where I genuinely like all of them a lot.

Yeah. I want to say a series of RPGs, a series of games. Everybody wins. Nobody has mentioned super paper merry to any point. I was not a fan of Super Paper Mario, and that actually highlights. I don't remember if Thousand-Yodor had this problem. That was you are not allowed to skip cutscenes in Super Paper Mario. You can't skip cut scenes in Thousand-Year either.

And I'm hoping that the remake will fix that. I'm really hoping they fix that. Because the reason why I don't like Super Paper Mario is because you had that really long-ass intro, and it's like, okay, I love writing these games, but let's get on with it. And then you're asked by the Great Spirit, whoever like can you go save this world or we're in trouble and you can answer no and I said like okay I'm gonna say no to see what happens and you just get a game over screen yeah and then okay I'm like okay great I start again and this the cinema's going again I said nah I'm done uh pretty good I like

super paper Mario just not as much as the thousand year door you're right I mean I liked it and it's I'm sometimes a little surprised that it's sticker star that gets it in the neck because Super Paper Mario to me is clearly less like Paper Mario it's clearly less of an RPG than Oh for sure Than Sticker Star is

And it's got less interesting stage design I think they don't really do enough with the 3D thing But I still like it I still like it fine I like how experimental and bizarre it is And it's full of like characters That are just like weird geometric shapes I kind of dig it

I kind of dig it It's probably my least favorite But I kind of dig it Still. Yeah, out of the original trilogy, it's probably like my least favorite, but I still like it. Yeah. I don't think there's a game lower than like any out of ten in this whole series for me. It's a great series.

Although I have to confess, I haven't played Paper Mario the first one at all, hardly. Me neither. God knows why. God knows why. Oh, I have. I think it's on Switch. I have no excuse. I should just play it on Switch like today.

I bought it once a hit virtual console because I missed it originally, but after a thousand-year door, I couldn't stay away. Yeah. I didn't want to play because I already played a thousand-year door. I figured, well, I don't really have a reason to go back to the original, but I will someday. Like I said, I was really trying to drink in the whole Mario world and universe and characters and just everything I could get my hands on. So that was part of it.

The other thing about Sticker Star is it kind of marked a bit of a shift for the series, where it really became more of a, like, for the whole paper thing seemed to be more of an aesthetic choice. It didn't seem to really drive the world or story or anything. and Sticker Star kind of I feel like we're talking more about Sticker Star than Thousand Year's War now As it was decreed by the perfect I was prepared for this, don't worry

But yeah Kind of changed to where like yeah Like everything is focused on everything being paper And to that point actually To kind of turn it back around The first three games felt like they were still Part of the same Mario universe As everything else

like even King Gumba from the first game shows up in Mario 64 DS as I recall Yeah, in one of the bonus areas, yeah Yeah, you'd get like some crossover like that And then they turned around And I think Sticker Star might have been where they began Like making it like a separate universe kind of thing They basically classic sonicked it

And I think there's an interview And then Iwata asks interviews Where they specifically say they had like a decree that they couldn't use, like, they had to use the existing Mario characters, which has been held up as a huge. I mean, I'm not going to pretend, like,

stick a star as much as I love it. It would have been better if it wasn't just all toads. I'm not going to deny that. To me, that's not enough to write the game off, not that you're saying it is, but a lot of people seem to behave that way. Yeah, yeah. People really are sticking on those toads. Nice.

I don't think it's so much the toad thing, but, like, they had a variety. of Toads in the previous games. And, of course, like, doing this, it's basically denying us our coops, denying us our gumbellas, and that kind of thing. And it's like, why would you do that? Especially if

it's supposed to be now a different like, you know, universe from the regular Mario, why wouldn't you be able to do something different there instead of making it more the same? I agree that they should have pushed the boat a more. I completely agree with that. I think, I don't know if I see it as a Paper Mario

problem, as a Mario in general problem, because that was an era when, you know, New Super Mario Bros., Mario 3D world, great games, great games, very conservative in terms of what they're presenting you in their worlds. And, you know, 10 out of 10, but again, it would have been better if they had pushed the visual boat out. And maybe now that we've got, like, Mario Odyssey, where there's tons of new weird shit. And Mario Wonder is just like, okay, you know what everyone, everyone take acid and play this game. Everyone gets seen get this finish down you.

Super Mario Brothers Wonder looks like Miyamoto or somebody at Nintendo Live. lost to bet because they're like they're doing all this like crazy stuff that we've been wanting for a while now and like i mean playable daisy alone to say nothing of playable peach and it's like somebody lost to bet somewhere I mean, there's been a lot of complaining about the state of Mario and particularly the new Super Mario Brothers games and how sort of samey they are visually. And as someone who honestly loves all of the new Super Mario Brothers games, and now we're getting Super Mario Wonder.

I'm just like, let's fucking go. Like, yes, man. Another 2D platform, another 2D Mario made by the Mario team. This is going to be another 10 out of 10 banger. And I love them. I love all those games. It's great loving these things. You know, it feels amazing not to not like these games because they look a bit boring.

It makes me so happy. I'm going to go ahead and say that I love the new Super Mario Bros. Games, too. Like, my least favorite one was New Super Mario Bros. 2. And that was more because, like, it felt like they were going through the motions and they didn't, like, realize potential. Like, it was on 3DS, but you didn't get any of the Yoshis Island-type 3-D kind of, you know, stuff that's on with the backgrounds or anything. And, I mean, you had a prime.

opportunity for Wario or do something like you know storywise with the coin and no it's just another literal rehash so well I have to say I think that one of the reasons I loved Origami King so much is because yes it had that very plain aesthetic and everyone complained oh my God it's just paper

paper paper but it was so hilarious I think they knew they were limited and they worked with what they had and it was fantastic like someone there was a big criticism about how oh my God there's a stapler that's a boss this is the lowest of the low And that Safelech's the funniest fucking boss fight I had in ages.

I don't want to be one of those guys who just sits in complaints about things other people have said, you know. Yeah, no, absolutely. I just don't get that. That criticism doesn't even register for me. It's like, well, what would you prefer? Like, what, a big, another big tortoise, like a big, a big gumburgle? I like gumbas. I get it.

But, like, to say that it's the lowest of the low is just a weird, baseless, like, it's clearly coming from you. It's clearly a you problem. I get it. I do, I kind of get it. I'm just, I'm just too caught up in how good they are to dislike it. This goes back to that divide I was talking about where like before Sticker Star, like, you know, the world, it wasn't like it was an aesthetic choice, but it wasn't like about things being made of paper. And so like you got things like Boneclaw, the Dragon, X-Nots and the Shadow Sirens and Rock Hawk and all this great stuff. And then, you know, afterwards, and things are made of paper. Now you're getting staplers.

And there's a firm divide there. And I can see why people would love stuff that, you know, seems to fit into a Mario world more than because, oh, hey, we're playing with paper. So let's use paper tools. I totally get it. I totally understand. At the same time, when you kill the stapler, it has like this really thick New York accent and, like, it dies. And last thing is that, like, it die when it dies, it kind of, like, go completely horizontal the way it does when you open a stapler. and he just says, hey, forget about it

and he blows up. That's so good. I suppose what I find slightly objectionable is the idea that Paper Mario should be or is a Mario RPG series because it contains two RPGs.

It's like, I've got some bad news, folks. That's the Adventure Game series now, and it has been for much longer than it was ever an RPG series. You've got two RPGs, and then we got a bunch of stuff that was just like, defiantly not RPGs. Yeah.

You know, there's already, there was already Marion Luigi, maybe the Nader of the whole kind of. Is that he pronounced it the Nadea, the Nadea. We're going to say yes.

Of the whole, like, aesthetic, um, homogenization thing was when you got Mario and Luigi paper jam, where you've got these two worlds that are meant to be these

unbelievably like, uh, what's the word, whimsical, silly, And it's just like boring as shit. I don't even hate that game. I really don't hate it.

It's perfectly playable. It's just that it really does take these two worlds and do nothing, does nothing with them. It's a shame. It is a shame. But something I thought was quite interesting, thinking about the whole world's thing, how they're separate worlds, is that they were, to my surprise, in Paper Mario, the Thousand-Yeador, the subject of this very podcast, which were just now. Oh, my God. That's right. There's a reference to Mario and Luigi in it.

Oh, is there? And they have Chakola Cola. Yep. And I was like, holy shit. I didn't know that they reference each other. That's cool. Yeah. And I think Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga, I think they had like a, there was like a university or something in the Bean Bean Kingdom where they show all these blocks from different games.

And I think a paper Mario block was there, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. I think you're right. So it was all like one big Mario world. And then they started kind of chopping it up. Yeah. And speaking of which, it's like, okay, yeah, I didn't mind them. trying to expand on, like, what Paper Mario could be so much, like, you know, in terms of genre,

like back when we had Mario and Luigi for the RPG thing. And this is coming from me, a guy who's not normally an RPG player, but, you know, Mario's been the exception for me for a long time. I don't play RPGs hardly, but I will play every Mario RPG. They're not the same thing to me. But, yeah, and it's like, okay, when we had Mario and Luigi, at least that was able to shoulder the load. And then when Nintendo kind of let Alpha Dream just, you know, become dust in the wind, well, now where are we? We're stuck with the, you know.

I'm so mad about those, those remakes being stuck on 3DS. They were so good. Yeah. I mean, I didn't play those remakes, but I tell you, I did play Marion Luigi Dream Team, and I'm really sorry, but that was one of the shittest games I ever played. You didn't like it? See, I didn't like, Dream Team was okay, but Bell's Inset Story is fantastic. It's like, I love Bowser's Inside Story. I love Superstar Saga, so I'm not, I really am not, I, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not,

Star Saga is one of my favorite games ever probably. But Dream Team is like, oh my God, it's like 70 hours long and it never ever stops talking down to you the whole time. You're just like, okay, I'm going to explain

this thing to you and you say no and he's like, actually it's very important so I'm going to explain it to you anyway. And it's like, I know how, like, the game never, ever lets you off the leash and it's, and I was just like gritting my teeth like, I'm finishing this

I'm 50 hours in. I don't even remember Dreamtian that well. I didn't even notice that but like I said I mean I probably said like you know yes tell me about like everything because I was drinking everything up so yeah I think it's like the opposite of like Star Trek sequels

where only the odd numbered ones are good because I really didn't like partners in time that much either and then I think that one. With Mario games to be perfectly clear, clear. When I say I didn't like them, what I mean is they weren't as good as the other ones, maybe. Okay, that's fair. Mario is, like, base level, what, six out of ten, which is above that?

Yeah, it's, it's pretty rare for a Mario Game Diplo 7. Yeah, yeah. So, like, Dream Team, I would probably, not that we care about numbers, but if I had to, I would say that's, like, the six. That's one of the weakest Mario games I played. It was still, I still finished the fucking game. I don't know. I kind of felt like, for a bit there, the Mario and Luigi games were getting better as they went. long because I didn't like Superstar Saga as much, mostly because I found, like, I don't know, some of the timing in the gameplay didn't work as well. I found the remake really took care of that.

Okay, yeah, I need to try that sometime. Yeah, I want to play that, yeah. The other thing actually reminds me of what you mentioned earlier when you reached the end of Thousand Year Door. Something similar happened to me when I reached the end of Superstar Saga, where I get to the final boss, and there's a part where you're, like, kind of on the ground, knocked out. Didn't even get a chance to, like, you know, recover or do anything before the

The boss just, like, attacks me and game over. It was, like, one of those, like, street events, and then, like, I didn't get a chance to recover from it. If I recall correctly, the final boss, like, Cacletta or Cacleta Soul or whatever, it has two phases, and it before the second phase, it puts your one HP and attacks you. Yes. And you have to dodge the attack, or you just are done. And it's like... I couldn't dodge it. My guys are, like, face down on the ground.

So... It's completely unfair in a way that I both love and hate at the same time. So you're a masochist. I totally understand you now. I think it's okay sometimes for a game to just stick its middle finger in your face, like, occasionally. Because it makes it more memorable. It makes it more memorable. If I did not love Mario so much at the time, I would have just probably been done with it right then and there.

You must have been thrilled about the sheer fan service of the fact that you fight every single one of the Cooper kids on the way up to that. Yeah. I thought that was really appearing for the first time since Mario, three, or World. Mario World, yeah. First time since Yoshi Safari, technically, but... Right, right. Okay. All right. No, he played that.

You know, I'm going to be able to be. And... I'm not you're going to be able to be. And... ...andahe ...and ...you know

... ... ... ... So I didn't really get to talk too much about why I like that as New Door. And I think one of the reasons why I love it so much is probably the setting. Like, I, we're talking about how much we love Mario Worlds already. Like, you know, I think the series has incredible imagination.

It is probably the first Mario game is what really sparked my imagination when it came to games and, you know, really taught me how the two can be intertwined. but with Mario with a thousand year door you have like the glitz pit you have you know Rogueport we talked about how memorable Rogueport is

can we talk about how you get into Rogueport and yes we mentioned the Chalkout line but also like characters are talking to you like oh well after Rogueport blah blah

and while this is going on someone's getting whacked in the background by the Pianta and that was the funniest thing to me because I hate the Peontas I think they're like

the most useless characters ever they're so awful and I didn't like Mario Sunshine So I was just like, oh, my God, now they finally have a point. And they finally have a story, which was like this whole Romeo and Juliet West Side story thing, which was just brilliant. It's stuff like that.

Like also the Twilight Town, how really that was done so well. The town full of Canadian penguins. So, of course, I'm going to. I'm not, they're Russian. They're kind of both. They're like the Russian with the hat. The classic Russian Canadian. Yeah.

And the other ones are just like, hey, we're penguins, eh? A, Putin? I just liked, I mean, I think that, like, the stage on the, on, what is it, the XS Express? The X-S, I love that. What a concept, what a concept that is. It's so cliche, but in a Mario context, it's just brilliant. Yeah, that was kind of one of those, like, genre jumps I was talking about because, like, now we're, like, in a, you know, mystery thing, sort of like, that Sonic the Hedgehog is dead, or murder of Sonic the Hedgehog thing. Yeah.

That was recent. But, like, you know, it's integrated into the game, so it's still the same mechanics. and everything. But yeah, that was a fun switch. I mean, one for me, the most applauded level is, I think, the wrestling stage, the pro wrestling level, the glitz pit, where when I was younger, when I

played this the first time, I didn't like that, because it was just fight after fight. Right. And I almost know, you go into the locker room, then you'd have a fight, and there was like almost nothing else going on. There was a little bit of sneaking around, but constant combat. And now, now that I actually,

now that I've, like, this is a very oxymoric statement, but now that I've grown up and actually am interested in pro wrestling a little bit, or at least I understand... Yeah, at least I understand, you know, pro wrestling to some extent. I want to play that stage again, because I reckon I'm going to love it now. Yeah. I'm going to be like

fully in cave fame, just like, yes, mate. There we go. Yeah. I loved that stage. So much that I would actually go back, defend my title, sometimes drop it on purpose, and basically go after it. Unfortunately, you couldn't really do

much more than fight Rockhawk over and over again. But I did that a lot. I was overpowered for probably the next couple of chapters because I was doing like title defenses and just eating the whole thing up. That's really cool. That's really cool. I didn't remember that you could do that. That's awesome.

I love that. If only they can incorporate some kind of like small scale Mario wrestling booking simulator, that would be fun. Yeah. That would be fantastic. There was talk about that for a while. Wasn't there like a Mario grappling game that became Mario Strikers? I think the guys who made Mario Strikers were going to do a Mario volleyball game, was it, that included wrestling moves somehow?

Damn, that would have made it a lot better. Mario put Luigi in, like, cake up in a clutch. Oh, I'm going to make you humble. You're talking about the first Mario brothers. You're talking about the first Mario Brothers. You're talking about the first Mario Brothers. And yeah, I remember reading the manual just like back to back constantly because, like, I don't know, just even that little bit of lore

I don't know if I'd have been like into video games the same way if like I didn't have that people are like oh nobody plays Mario for the story I'm like I play Mario I play Mario for the story kind of because the story's so good so well like one thing I got to give a shout out to is the Luigi adventure that's going on in the sidelines

Oh it's genius. Well a great idea but before we get into that because that's like worth a whole tangent on its own I just want to mention the Pianta thing yeah I too hated the Piantas before and that the beat down just completely turned me around on them. I don't think I even noticed it happening at first

and then I look in the background. I'm like, wait, what's that? I replayed the intro all over again just so I could witness that. I started the game over. The lost ends are cards. The only thing missing is like one of the Piantas just like straightening his tie after the beat down's done before they go off. It's very funny.

It's beautiful. I loved it. I was like, okay, now I get the Piantas. I'm on board. I love the way that sort of sells the, you know, the sort of the Vrogory of Rogueport, because then again, the next area you're going to you immediately get jacked, you get robbed. Yeah. I thought you can chase down.

You get robbed by a bandit from Yosh's Island, of all things. Yeah. Not even a shy guy, a band, a variant specifically from Yosh's Island, which is like a really cool world building, I think. It's just a fantastic experience, like top to bottom, really. I mean, with the exception of maybe some of the last chapters, back and forth bullshit, which I think everyone can agree is a pain in the ass. I'm hoping that they will change it for the remake, but we'll see.

Me too. And the other thing is, like, yeah, with those later games, again, you're not going to get those peyanta moments because you can't mess with the peyanta's or any of the character's designs. So, but yeah, anyway, Paper Luigi. Oh, going back to you. As I understand, like, I'm trying to recall what happened exactly. I know that you talk to him, like, as you go through the game and you see Luigi's like, hey, what's up, bro? And he's always being followed by some character that he teamed up with while you were doing your thing. Am I right in saying that he's always in the bar at Rogueport with someone?

Maybe you're right, and you check in with him. He might be right. I only remember a bloomer being with him at one point, and it's just, hey, this is my friend. Not just a bloomer, a fried blober. He fell on the lava, and Luigi and the Blueber have different accounts of it. So he's basically like crispy calamari at this point. Isn't that the gag that Luigi tells you what happened, but then you talk to his partner and they're like, this is what really happened?

Yes. Yes. His partners do not like him. Brilliant idea. What a genius. Whoever came up with that deserves like some yen? Like lots of yen. I forget why his partners don't like him. Like, is he just not competent?

Louis G was one who I think kicked the bluebird into the lava pit or something or maybe used them to like, you know, beat like a boss or something. And it's just this wonderful window into this parallel adventure to your own. And honestly, you know, if they were going to add anything for this new one, it should be to let you play through the, paper Luigi adventure because that's a game that should have come out 20 years ago and didn't I would actually love to see a separate game but I feel like just having him talk to you having the, it'd be like, it's perfect

the way it is. It'd be me a little bit too much if we had to play through it as well. I kind of wonder if they're going to do something a bit like they did with the Mario and Luigi remix where it was like Marion Luigi and Bowser's minions. Which was a great little side thing like everyone bitches about Bowser Jr. for good reason but that made him

so cute and sympathetic and the way Morton called him Small Bowser and was the only one faithful to him. It was really good. I just wonder if they're going to do something like that. Am I going to get a direct between now and its release, which is like, oh, you're also getting this? That would be kind of cool. Yeah, it's like, I mean, I'm perfectly fine

with a faithful remake that just, you know, maybe tweaks like, you know, the slight thing here or there, but is otherwise like, you know, perfectly faithful to the original. But if they were going to add anything. Yeah, yeah. There it is. Speaking of tweaking and whatnot, I think one thing

people are wondering about is the bits with peach and tech because they were kind of, didn't she get undressed or something? Yeah, doesn't she get, she gets nude at one point, and invisibly nude. As you sneak around. And it's the hottest thing I've ever seen. No, sorry, that's not

me. It's the hardest thing you've never seen. It's the only thing I've never seen, yeah, it's a sexy invisible lady. It is, and it was even then quite jarring, I think. Yeah, it kind of was. Even seeing a toilet in Peach's room like wow Peach poops Yeah

Jesus Yeah that's true Yeah it's really odd And it feels a little bit kind of like I don't know it's not I don't know how to describe it without going into sort of unpleasant sort of territory But it does feel like it's

appeasing a specific person on the writing team Maybe because that's their fetish I don't know I was going to say bring up that meme But this is like you know all audio so we can't Is that like in this episode the writer's barely disguised fetish that one

yeah that pretty much yeah because in a way to me it did even when I first played it did kind of give all the vibe of like is this really necessary

yeah like could she not just be invisible like with her clothes is it really necessary that's pretty funny but there's Mario puts on a hat

and turns invisible all clothes and all so yeah the beginning the beginning of Marion Luigi has a toad see Mario's penis and testicles

and like they're upset they're just trying to pull something here aren't they? This was one year later, and they're like, well, we've had Mario now, we need to have peach. Wait, when did a toad see Mario's wee? I don't remember that. At the very beginning of the game, he rush, he's going to find Mario and Mario is taking a shower. Oh, right. The toad runs into the room, runs out red-faced. And it's just like, he obviously saw Mario's cock. It's like, what else did he possibly have seen him?

And Mario comes out of the shower, he's got a towel on, and then he, like, stomps the toad a few times. Yeah, it's, it's very, very funny. Very, very funny. That, uh, see that broke my brain. Mario's penis and testicles broke my brain. Let it be known to the world. Mario is very protective of his spaghetti and meatballs. Oh, my goodness gracious. Yeah, there's also the Bowser bits, so to speak. Incredible.

One of the first times that Nintendo had actually gone, like, we're going to parody our past. Like, this is a parody of Super Mario Brothers, like 1-1. That's right. Yeah, he kind of stops through 1-1. It's like he's so overpowered. I love it when an RPG lets you do something stupid and overpowered, like in Final Fantasy 7 when you're with Sephiroth,

the beginning and for the cloud flashback and he just has this 20 foot Massaumune like slicing through everything at once while you know quote unquote cloud is like the new soldier and he's just like kind of hitting things with like you know for like 20 hit points and Stefanov comes by

and skewers like six enemies and like a kid shit bob. I always really enjoy that. I think that the I kind of feel like these sections may have inspired the Mega Mushroom and New Supermarrier Brothers because they give off a similar vibe to me I have to say. Yeah that's yeah because like you get enough of the

instead of mushrooms Bowser powers up on meat doesn't he? Yeah. I think so, yeah. Yeah, and then he turns into a giant Bowser, it's sort of like Mega Mario, so yeah, I think it did precede that. If this didn't originate like

the Bowser, well I suppose it was in 2003, it was in America and Luigi, but this was a continuation of this newfound sort of characterization of Bowser as this kind of ineffectual like anger management blundering, like the most

unbelievably appealing take on Bowser, it's so much fun. Started with the first Mario RPG. I think that was like... Yeah, of course, I forgot all about that, yes. I think Paper Mario does it a lot better because I do have a little better problem with the original Mario RPG, the way Bowser's a little

bit of a was, like, and it's just in that very square way where it's like, oh my God, Bowser is so stupid and ineffectual next to this giant sword and this man who hammers things like these are the real villains. Bouser's just like, but then it goes to get Bouser in battle and he's a complete badass as

he is a complete badass. I love him. And of course Bowser's inside story really is the one that brings that to its absolutely That's hilarious. I will boldly go out there and say that the Mario RPG games like and the you know the ones surrounding it, those are some of the best written games

period. Like they're always funny they're always smart. The editing, the localization is just razor sharp. You can't find an error, no matter how deeply you scour it. I just, I'd love to be part of that localization team. I'll say that much. Okay, so

I think I mentioned this on Axe the Blood God recently when you had me on there. Might be worth bringing up here again, considering the topic. So, I'm not a huge RPG person, but I definitely made a point to check out Mega Man X command mission. And I'm like,

oh yeah, this is pretty cool and stuff. And I think my only real RPG experience before this was years before, with Super Mario RPG. Right. And then it was like, I think right after Command Mission, I played Thousand Year Door, and then I'm just like, oh, wow.

This is what an RPG is, yeah. Just like not just like command mission, because like I still enjoy it for what it is, but it was like just kind of like the humor and the characterization and everything, it just felt like such a step beyond. I mean, I think that everything is going to seem better off the Command Mission personally,

but that's, you know, that's beneath being cynical. That is our, we do have an episode over on Acts of the Blood God. Yeah. Not, wink, wink. Yeah, I'm, no, forget that, no. I will listen to that.

That sounds interesting. I wasn't told in advance that you'd remind me of that, and I feel like I've been attacked. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You got the shimmers. I wanted to mention real quick, because you said about how good the script is

in selling your door, and it is. I do feel like that applies to the subsequent games as well, because they go even harder into the dry humor. I remember very strongly in Color Splash. There's a bit where you can visit like a Hot Springs with toes in it. And you get in the Hot Springs and you talk to the toes. And it's like, I feel like we know each other pretty well, Mario, but not watch each other take baths well, you know.

And there's just so much humor like that throughout, lace throughout the game. I think I remember that. Which one was that? I think it's color splash, but it might be origami. They're very, that's one of the things, that's one of the problems with the fact that they do have this aesthetic. They do kind of merge together for me.

Origami King, for me, is it's notable for its combat, which I didn't really like. Whereas Color Splash, I also didn't like the combat, but I didn't like it in a slightly less aggressive way. But they may merge together for me. It's because they're both HD, like, Paper Mario games. I can't remember which one is which. The Paper Mario games, yeah, it also is almost a detriment in a way that how good they look. They do kind of blend together in your head a little bit, but not in a terrible way, but it does make it hard to distinct. distinguish opinion sometimes.

I mean, the remake of Thousandia Dore is going to look astonishing. It's going to look absolutely beautiful. It's already like the widescreen helps it so much. Like the way the audience looks now is just incredible. Although the Mario P.G remake looks incredible as well, I think.

It does. I love the story. It's going out with some real good games. I think that to kind of go back on a point briefly, I think that Nintendo has kind of broken some kind of curse where they were just like, okay, Mario has to be uniform. Maro has to this way. And I think they were doing that at the time because when the Wii was on the rocks,

they were focusing very hard on making Mario a brand outside of video games. And with the movie, of course, they succeeded like 50-fold. And now that they're more confident with the Wii, sorry, with the Switch and all that, they're probably cutting loose a bit more, plus the Old Guard. They're all there as mentors and stuff like that. But I mean, I don't imagine like Miyamoto is like semi-retired and just kind of like wants to spend time with his family and stuff like that. And he said many, many times, I am not here to direct everyone. I am here to be a mentor. I am here to let them have their own ideas. And I know that he's sometimes held up as a boogeyman because of her story reasons. But yeah, I firmly believe that Nintendo is just like,

you know what, guys, we're, uh, maybe we're not seeing a, maybe we will see a more loose and fun paper Mario RPG in the future, just kind of predicting things that we're here. I hope so. I mean, I'm hoping that this will be a testing bird. Yeah. I would love that. Even as a fan of the eventual ones, I've had three of those now. I'm full. Like, you know, you can give me more and I'll pat my belly and I'll delightedly consume it.

But if they want to do an RPG now, I officially am fine with it. No, Hey Nintendo, if you're listening. It's okay. You can go ahead and do it now. I have made it very open for you to do so. They've actually, I liked really how Origami King touched on the open world concept for Paper Mario.

And I would love to see that expanded upon. And combat was not the greatest, as you mentioned. Like, it wasn't my favorite either. It wasn't terrible, though. I kind of like the puzzles. But by the end, I was just like spending the money, solve this for me. Get out of here. The problem is, like, I am quite stupid.

And every time I'd see one of those puzzles, my brain would just be like, no, no, you're only good at finding totes. You're not good at lining it. I think if I spent a bit more time with it, I might eventually be able to master it. But for the time being, I was just kind of like, nah. No, I understand that. As much as I did enjoy it, I struggled, like, pretty much the whole way through. I mean, it does give you the opportunity to make it easier for you by using the toes. That's what I did.

By the end, I was just like, you weren't really using the coins for anything again. It became a problem. But I was using it just to get the toes to solve my shivering. You mentioned very briefly the audience in the Thousand-Yeodrome. We haven't really talked about that at all. It's one of the most unique things in the game. It is. Before we go into that, I just wanted to mention, I feel like,

ever since they kind of start string from the more RPG stuff after SuperPapes, Paper Mario, because, yeah, I'm going to include that because it had the experience points and stuff, as I recall. I don't know. It just felt like they haven't really been able to nail down the combat in a way that seems to really satisfy everyone. Yeah. I mean, I liked it in Sticker Star because it did serve a purpose. That's interesting because Sticker Star is such an inversion of what the series already did. Sorry, stop the time rambling.

But what it does is in Paper Mario, the combat boosts you and it makes you stronger. And in Sticker Star, it makes you weaker. you don't you need the coins to buy more stickers but you also don't want to use your stickers it is a genuinely interesting resource management balancing act because of the way it's structured and I dug the shit out of it I was just like this is great I loved it

but at the same time yes if it doesn't land it doesn't land it's one of those things where you just want to say to people you just want to reach into the internet you just want to take their arms around them and just say listen I understand your point but you keep saying it over and over again and it's very boring yeah

And I want the internet to just chill out and just let both things be what they are. That's what I want. I want everyone to be friends. I want everyone to be friends over Paper Mario games. Yeah, exactly, exactly. What I want it to me is I want to go on Twitter and I want to say, I think Stikasar is the best Paper Mario game. And I want someone to reply and say, I disagree, but I respect your position.

Instead of kicking you in the head. Instead of just calling me slurs. Oh! Now, honestly, I think it would probably go over a lot better, especially now that we don't have Mario and Luigi. Maybe they could alternate between an RPG and then, like, you know, something experimental, RPG, something experimental kind of back and forth, satisfy both crowds, me?

All I want is for it not to end. Or at least I want Mario RPG. to continue in some form. I think that Alpha Dream being closed sucks. It really sucks. I mean, in a sense, it was a little bit like, because people were kind of rolling their eyes that just like, oh, another Mario and Luigi and another remake.

And it was of a game that was just the previous generation, Bowser's Inside Story, what, you know? That should have been on the Switch. It probably would have done so much better, and it would have laid the groundwork for them to be able to do further switch games. Maybe they didn't have the money to do it for whatever reason. Maybe an internet wasn't going to bankroll that. I mean, maybe they would have, I mean, if we ever get, you know, a DS switch online thing,

which we're probably not getting because it would be kind of difficult. I mean, we've got Superstar Saga, I think, on the GBA app, but that's it. Yeah, I think it is, yeah. But that's it. And those late 3D.S. re-releases are going to become, like, gold dust, I think. If they're not already, if they're not already. I mean, I'm kind of an idiot and I've bought some of those games

with the ones that I'm not necessarily interested in because I'm sitting on them because I expect they're going to go very... I'm a bad person, basically. You're just securing your retirement. That's my pension, yeah. It's like they re-released Luigi's Mansion in the original

and now we're at the end of the Switch Life, so to speak, they've re-released Luigi's Mansion 2 on it, which I am really excited about because I love that game, but it's a very odd choice. Same with Mario versus Donkey Kong. unusual game to do a remake of.

I like that game. I'm not dissing that game. It's just like of all of the games. They chose this kind of mid-7 out of 10 that's like game that nobody even really particularly loved in the first place. It's fine. Well, when I first saw that, I'm like, why aren't they remaking Donkey Kong 94 instead? Yeah, you agree. And then, and then I found out, oh, it's Nintendo software technologies, is it called?

Yeah, the guys of Washington. Yeah. Yeah, the ones who made Mario versus Donkey Kong to begin with so it's like oh okay that makes sense all right back to the well yeah my favorite thing about that game is at the end when you watch the credits

Mario says thank you very much for playing my gameses I love thank you so much for to playing my game it's so good I hope that this maybe does well enough that instead of more like limming mini Mario stuff we get like more puzzle platform

type stuff. More DK94 type stuff. That'd be great. I mean, I didn't hate the mini Mario games, but they've, I mean, that was, at least that was a genre choice. I mean, why do you want Mario versus Duncan? This is my fault. I'm so sorry.

I always do this. It's because it's another Mario remake, and we're getting like this, you know, this clutch of remakes that we've had and are having. We've got three Mario remakes coming just like this and next year. Right. I think they're doing more Mario remakes than new. Mario's now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mario Wonder, at least. Mario Wonder is there, and then, you know, when they do switch to or whatever, we'll probably get another 3D Mario. So, yeah, that's what I'm thinking, yeah. But that's okay. I like Mario. I love Mario. I love Thousand Year Door. I'm looking for it all of it. I am delighted that Nintendo

constantly make Mario games. Like, no one else is going to do it. We live in a difficult future, but Mario is something that's there for us. It makes me happy. It does. On the Alpha Dream subject, I don't know if this would have saved them or not,

But maybe instead of, like, you know, the Mario and Luigi series kind of going on a downward slide and then into remakes, I am forever going to regret that they never made a Wario and Waluigi RPG. Wow, they should. Maybe that would have, like, revived things. The funny, the funny, the funny meme character of Waui. Are you not a Wau Luigi fan? I'm, I don't want to be rude. I think that Wario, I love Wario, I think Waluigi is just like, he's just a meme.

That's why I love him. He's absolutely just a meme. I liked Waluigi before he was a meme or anything like that. Well, once I saw Mario Strikers doing like a DX shop, like, you know. Yeah, that is really funny, actually, yeah. I was like, okay, I'm now officially on board with this character, not to mention his weird, like, banjo country. theme that was just like so out of left field it was just like

okay yes I am I am a Waluigi fan now I do like the fact that like Wai Luigi is just this fucking goblin like Wario Wario was like established as being like I can't remember if he was a friend or if he was the third brother of them

and he was teased by Marion Luigi and that's why he became evil I guess yeah and then you get Waluigi and he just turns up there's like no explanation for his existence it's like Like, Luigi also has this, um, evil, like, counterpart. Who isn't really that evil? He's just this bizarre goblin, like, freakish creature.

He goes, wha! Or whatever. Can you imagine being a fly on the wall for that design process? Like, make him like gangly. No, ganglier. Was he first in Mario Tennis on the 64? Yeah, he was. I think he invented. Oh, man, I'm proud of myself for remembering that.

Yeah, they had to have double. So they invented Mario Luigi. Well, Mario was like an exaggerated Mario. He was like, you know, fatter and all this kind of stuff. and Luigi, you know, they kind of went the same way. They made them, like, you know, taller and skinnier. The Japanese Wauru means, like, bad, like evil, right?

So it's Wauruigi. Yeah, Wauri. Yeah, yeah, clever. Kind of like how in Mario, the first Mario RPG, I think Boshi, or his name is was Woshi or something. Washi, right, right. Yeah. Which is, like, too bad they didn't, like,

I know some people would hate that, but I would love if they actually brought back the Japanese name so that he could effectively fit in with Wario and Waluigi and Washi. He should hang out with him, yeah. Yeah, exactly. I sort of agree. I mean, I think, yeah, because one of the things I didn't like about him, and this is very petty is a grammar thing, which is Wario makes sense,

but Wariu is just putting the word Watt in front of Luigi. I know. It's great. And it's wrong. It just doesn't translate as well as Wario. Precisely, yeah, yeah. You don't even have to know about the whole Warrewey thing. Like, and they call them something that's like evil Luigi.

or something or like Luigi or something like Luigi. Louisja. I like Luigi. Wait, that's a Pokemon. Oh, yeah. I do love that Waluigi's ambition is to outdo Luigi of all characters. Yeah, talk about it. That makes him even funnier. He called him Luigi jerk. The internet

would have a filled day with that, I think. Imagine the fan art. Oh, my God. Imagine the fan art indeed. Yeah, I would say that maybe in the next paper Mario RPG or whatever I get for a Mario RPG, we should have Wa Luigi and Mario in there, just for the hell of it.

Hell, just like, maybe they'll run a town. Maybe they'll run a bed and breakfast that goes to hell. I could compliment. Yeah, it's like bottom. It's like a house paradisi. Why, sometimes I think you want to fail. Shut up, shut up. That'd be great.

I'm probably the only one who's seen this stuff, but they are a hoot in the Mario and Sonic Olympic Games, the handheld version. It's got the story modes, yeah. And honestly, the idea of a warrior and Waluigi are. RPG from Alpha Dream. Like, I saw them basically using the sprites for that. I don't know if you've heard of Super Mario Brothers Z, this fan animation by a guy called Alvin Earthworm.

I think we've heard of it, but I don't think I've ever watched it. The Wario and Waluigi segments are hilarious. Like, you know how Mario used Luigi as a tool in the games to do stuff? Yeah, at one point in the animation, you've got Wario, like, where they're out at sea, and he's using Waluigi wrapped around him as an intertube to swim. That's quite good. And it's like, oh, my God, like, what other kind of stuff are we not getting that, you know? There's a fan game called Psycho Walloigi that's really impressive as well.

I've heard of that. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that was a good one. Can I use this outlet to complain about Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games? Because I'm never going to get a chance to. You're not going to find it anywhere else. Well, the last one that was on the Switch. I can't remember if it was like Tokyo 2020 or something like that.

Yeah, yeah. You know what you can't doing that is you can't make an Olympics. You can't just go like, I want to play these four. events in a row and I want to play them on multiplayer. If you're playing in multiplayer, you have to do one event, then go back to the menu and do another event, and then back to the menu and then back to the menu and do another event.

Like, fucking out, why can't you just make your own list of events? It's ridiculous. They're idiots. How dare they? Could you do that before? I didn't remember that. But again, I didn't play the hand helps. That's the first one I majorly play, so I don't know if you could do it before, but it seems like the most basic possible thing to let you do

multiple events in a row and then have a winner. That's kind of what people makes are four, right? Yeah, that'd be cool, that'd be cool. They don't let you. It's very frustrating, and it relates to Paper Mario in no way. Everything goes back to Paper Mario. All roads. All roads lead to Donkey Kong 64.

All roads lead. There you go. It is kind of getting late, so we should wrap things up here. But I do want your final thoughts on Mario. Like, okay, assume someone has not played Paper Mario Thas in your door, and the remake is coming out, and you have to do a short pitch to kind of give in front of play. What do you say? You start, Stuart.

What else are you going to spend your 50 quid on? Sorry, that's... There you, there you go. I guess what I say is, like, it's a game that's like... Everywhere you go and every room you go in is going to have some element of character to it, even if it's just a gumbella when you press the X button or whatever,

giving you some info about the room. And I'm pretty sure she has different info for every single space in the game. Yeah. So no matter where you go, there is something interesting to do or see. The combat is really weird, but fun in a way.

And, you know, it's rewarding. It's got a lot of inputs. You can do like, you know, the stylish moves, the sort of hidden stylish things you can do to get more kudos from the crowd. And the world is just so diverse and interesting and full of

showing off how many sprites you can fit on the screen. It does have those moments. Everyone's swarms. Which still looks impressive. It does. It really does. Considering the game on the GameCube running at 60 frames per second, it looks amazing to this day. It does. Absolutely. I just think if you want to play

a game that's going to consistently be fun and it's going to be entertaining. And yes, it is quite challenging. Um, this is the one. Like, this is what you should play. Of all of the Mario RPGs, I, I think this is the one I would say is the best one. Yeah, I would say, I would be. And that's of the RPGs, not of the Paper Mario series. Yeah, yeah.

This is just my unusual opinion, and I respect. I appreciate that, you know. What about you, David? PJ's naked in it. Oh, there's your pitch. You win. I don't know if I really have much more to add to that. I was going to mention the combat.

It's a lot, if you like what was in Super Bowl. Mario RPG, it's like that, but at the same time, it's more streamlined and yet more evolved. It's more like Mario focused, plus like one sidekick character instead of managing three different characters. Yes. And yeah, I think Stu hit pretty much all the major points there. Sorry for being so efficient.

No, I have really value efficiency, but I totally agree. DeCombat is very interesting to me because, yeah, as you said, David, it is streamlined, and maybe that is one problem I have with the game is that once you get comfortable with a partner, you don't tend to change them out. And I just kind of always used Coops. And I feel like maybe I was missing out because there's so many original fun characters. Each character has a skill that will help you along. Like we mentioned, Gumbella's Tattle, I think is called. So it's just a great fun, joyous RPG. I'm really looking forward to the remake. Yeah, there's really no other pitch for it other

than it's a great RPG. And what do you want from RPG? You want great music, which you got great story which you got great characters great journey everything's great except for maybe the backtracking but we'll see when no does about that Should we even should we like even super briefly talk about Vivian at all or is that? Well I'm kind of curious to see what

they're going to do with Vivian because I have a feeling like just to reiterate to our listeners like Vivian was presented as she is transgender. Some people say like he's a cross-dresser just a cross-dresser but I think the canon in Italy apparently like the translation says explicitly

she is transgender and happy with that choice which is I think that's fine but we know the internet's going to explode and I don't know what Nintendo is going to do I feel like they're going to keep it that she is actually like transgender and that would be fine with me I mean or they're just I don't know

I mean what how is it presented in the like US release how do they present that? In the US one basically she's presented as female and her sisters just basically call her like you know ugly and all this stuff They're the more crone witchlike, and she's like the more cuter kind of.

She's like very effeminate. Yeah. Yes. I love Vivian. She makes me cry. Vivian is awesome, yeah, yeah. But I didn't use her in battle very much, to be honest. That was going to be actually probably one other thing I was going to say as far as, like, you know, pitches.

If you want a game with, like, Mario characters to fall in love with, this one is full of them. I have, like, basically, this kind of plush gumbella backpack that someone made for me to use, like, for cosplay. Nadia, I ended up basically customizing a cupa-trupa plush into Coops for her. So, I mean, it's that kind of level of, like, yeah, getting attached to these Mario characters. Yeah, they're really likable character. It's a great cast. It's a fantastic game. It's like, if you don't see the appeal of this game, then you have probably got serious problems.

You should get checked out. You did. You do. You have a very, very strong case of cynicism and go to the doctor. The soul stone. Absolutely. But this was actually a great episode. I think we're all very excited about Mario RPG in general and especially a thousand-year-door.

And I was really great to talk to you guys about it. I'm probably more excited about it now than I was when we started. There you go. That's what podcast studio, man. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's what I'm here for. I'm here to stoke the fires. Going back to Paper Mario, too, for the thousand-year-door for this podcast was just almost revelatory because I was like, I remember this being a little bit bland.

But not the exact opposite. It was completely wrong. It's great. Oh, I'm glad to hear it still holds up. That's good news for everyone involved. Stu, why don't you go ahead and just tell us what you're up to and who you are and where you can find you? Okay, I'm a retronaut. Hello.

You are. I do episodes of retronauts that are about things that nobody else would ever do, such as Asterix, which is coming up in multiple parts. We have the absolute exhaustive Asterix games overview that went on and on and on because it turns out there's a lot of Asterix games. I also wrote a book, which came out recently. which is all games are good and you can get it through limited run and probably through Amazon by the time this goes out and what it's about, it's about my,

well, it's a, it's a lot of A to Z of things I've written about games that are erring towards the positive and trying to cover games that, the games that I grew up playing that won't necessarily be everyone's upbringing, because mine was odd like I had a mast system, that I had nothing forever, and then I had a PS2, I missed that whole

thing, and I only caught up later with emulators and then reading magazines, so I was reading magazines and going like, this looks like the best game ever, and then I, you know, I'd get to play games, and I would just be so enthralled by the whole idea of games that I ended up liking pretty much everything. You wouldn't know it if you looked at my Twitter feed, though, at Stupacabber, but I just bitch all day. You do. I can confirm. I bitch all day, and then I go on podcast and talk about how much I love everything. So, yeah, look forward to that. You're a person of dual nature.

As the world's only living, breathing, urban champion fan, I can certainly appreciate that. I respect that. I respect the hustle, you know. Absolutely. David, why don't you tell us a bit about yourself? I think I know you, but some people don't. Okay, well, I'm not a retronaut per se, but I do keep myself busy writing for Nintendo Force magazine and largely on the Mega Man Network at the MMNetwork.com. I need to get back to writing on my own personal, like other stuff, non-Megaman stuff, website, poison mushroom.org, but you can still find some fun stuff I've posted there over the years.

and let's see. Yeah, I'm on Twitter at LBD underscore N-Y-T-E-T-R-A-Y-N and at the M-M-M-N network, if you just want a deluge of Mega-Man content. Let's see. Also, I stream with Nadia periodically on the NightWorks Twitch channel. We just did Mega-M-5 last night. Yes, we did.

That was painful. Tell them about the Mega-Man, the Robot Monster guides and stuff. I was just about to, but I also want to mention, I'm also on Blue Sky, same names, but minus the underscore in that one case, because they don't use underscores. And, yeah, Nadia and I were both, you know, published in the Mega Man Robot Master Field Guide, Update Edition, covers all the major characters in the original series up through Mega Man 11. And the Mega Man X, Maverick Hunter's Field Guide, which was a fun little twist on the concept. I got on both. They're really good. I'm glad he liked him

especially the Mega Man X stuff was fun to write like that's my element right there I want to work on my own sort of version of it called Sonic characters I'd like to see dead I could write a book about that that'd be good well it's just on the list I hope

well I mean it's all of them isn't it it's just all of them oh well at least you're impartial just a pile of dead furries that's all we want here again I'm a huge fan of Sonic that's why I hate it so much That makes sense.

That tracks, really. Yeah, yeah. As for me, I'm Nadia Oxford. I am also the co-host of the Axe of the Blood God podcast, which is a RPG podcast about RPGs, old, new, eastern and western. Please support our folly at Patreon.com forward slash Blood God Pod. And it goes without saying that you should support Retronauts as well. We have several tiers to the slot you're bling into, like we have a $3 tier that lets you access episodes a week early. There's a $5 tier that gets you to Patreon exclusive.

episodes as well as everything else I just mentioned, and the Nintendo 64 tier for $64. You get the privilege of setting a retronauts topic once every six months, I believe, and you get everything else, of course. You could force us to talk about awesome, possum for two hours. I can. Awesome.

Possum. Kickstop to Machinos, but I'm awesome. I'm awesome. You're not so awesome. If you have to say you're awesome, you're not awesome, I mean, come on. I agree. I'm on that to Machinos side. You can also find me at Nadia Oxford on on the bad place, which is Twitter, and the

maybe it'll be bad place someday. Blue Sky, same name. Pretty bad. And, yeah, that is it for us. And until next time, don't worry about Paper Tigers. Is Paper Dragons you should worry about? I'm going to be able to be.

Thank you.