Retronauts - 573: DOOM Clones

Episode Date: November 20, 2023

Diamond Feit, Stuart Gipp, and David L. Craddock resurrect and re-examine the term "DOOMclone" as they recount their favorite examples of other first-person shooters from the 1990s. Edits by Greg Leahy and art by John Pading. Retronauts is made possible by listener support through Patreon! Support the show to enjoy ad-free early access, better audio quality, and great exclusive content. Learn more at http://www.patreon.com/retronauts

This episode of Retronauts is brought to you by our friends at Uncommon Goods. This week at Retronauts, begun. The Clone Wars did. Hello, welcome to Retronauts, and welcome to what might be the last podcast of 2023. That's probably not true, but you know what? It feels like the last podcast of 2023 because I don't have a good reason to finish that sentence. I might cut that joke out. But in any case, I'm your host, Diamond Fight, and fun fact about me, in the event of my death, my body will face you, the viewer of my body, perpetually.

I don't know why that happened. I'd like to think it's genetic, but, you know, it's something I think we can all do with practice. I'm joined here by two returning guests. Let's start with the guest in the United Kingdom. Oh, it's me. I'm sure I was doing the Tommy Tallerico joke. It's not funny. Hello.

I'm Stuart Jip, and I don't have a pithy remark for this. I like Doom Clones. There, that has that. Oh, okay. All right. Yes. And joining us again from the United States. Yes, I'm David O'Cradock.

I'm the co-writer and director of FPS first-person shooter, and I will open by quoting Doom Guy. Whoa. This podcast just got sexy. Well, I'm coming in controversially, sexually. That's Doom Guy, though. I mean, it's just raw masculinity. Where is it? Thank you, David.

Thank you. We needed your expert opinion to get that in there, because I don't know if I could quote Doom Guy at top of my head. I think I'd have to look that up. But yes, our episode today is not about. about Doom per se, but it is about the Doom phenomenon and specifically Doom clones, because Doom was so big that lots of other games came out that were kind of like Doom, and for a good few years there, we all just called them Doom clones. That was a real thing that happened. It was in magazines. It was in newspapers. It was in a conversation you would have with people.

It's like, oh, did you try that new Doom clone? Like, that was the thing people said to one another, in between, I guess, buying beepers at the mall? I don't know. It's the 90s. Buying Doom clones at the mall. Yeah, Doom clones at the mall, of course. For the Doom Clones Star. Sorry.

It's going to be one of those podcasts every time I speak. The conversation just comes to crashing old. And then the comments are like, get rid of this fat, bald English one. No, I remember those stores. There were software, et cetera, and then Doom clones, et cetera. So I remember exactly. I was there. I was there.

So, before we get to the clone part, I'd like to start a little bit, just a little bit about Doom, because as we're recording this in the year 2023, the second year Luigi, we're about, we're heading, we're heading very fast to the 30th anniversary of Doom itself. Doom will be 30 years old very soon. I actually got a little bit emotional hearing that. That's weird. This game means a hell of a lot to me, so that's probably why. Yes. So before we talk about the Doom clone, I'd like to talk about Doom a little bit itself. First of all, David, in seven words or less, what is Doom?

Doom is the alpha and the omega of everything. It is, I'm going beyond seven words, but it is really the prototypical first person shooter from which all of the other ones devolved, even the ones that had nothing in common with Doom. Doom is the reason the genre is popular and has propagated today. that checks out in my brain what do you think stew um it's difficult to put into words doom is resides at the very peak of what gaming can be and i mean in the sense that it's a 10 out of 10 game with a 10 out of 10 community 10 out of 10 culture yes it's lived for 30 years it's never been inactive there have been mods made for this game for 30 years People keep going back to Doom for a very, very good reason, which is that it's perfect. It doesn't have any flaws.

And if there are any flaws, they're just part of its perfection. I mean, I'm not going to get into it now, but I'm one of those people who prefers Doom to Doom 2 by a significant margin. Because I feel like anything that touches the kind of purity of Doom is, in a sense, making it worse. I'm right there with you. But we're talking about 10 out of 10 games here, so, you know. Right there with you. I don't even know what to say.

I wrote a thing about Doom a few years ago. I think when it was 25, and the final line is I'm not trying to be presentious here. But the final line was, if the afterlife doesn't have Doom, I refuse to die, and I stand by that. I can't imagine a world where I don't have to, I can't have play Doom anymore. Like, I need to play it. It's like an opiate. I really is just perfect. And it's like a dance.

And when you're playing it on a high skill level, you're not even thinking, you're just acting. And no other game gets in my brain like that. No, none of them. It's the Zen thing. It's, you know, when you're in the zone, but it's always. And it's the peak of, it's the best game ever made, basically. Yeah, I would agree with that.

I mean, I play Doom at a minimum once a year. This time I think I've played it three or four times. I think one reason it endures. There are a couple, right? Like, they're the practical ones, which, the first among them would be John Carmack releasing the source code, which allowed anyone to kind of, you know, create source ports and just keep Doom modern, but not in the modern way that is Stewart so eloquently put it, would, would add flaws to its design. Like you can buy source or buy,

you can download source ports that allow free aiming, jumping, crouching. Doom didn't need any of that. Its elegance is still relevant today, which is why the community is still making maps for it. The people are still making source ports. If, at the core of the game weren't so elegant. I don't think people would care about it, no matter how many maps people put out. It's so accessible. You know, you don't have to free aim.

There's no jumping. There's no crouching. That's why, you know, when John Carmack got it into his head to experiment with the iPhone, he ported Wolfenstein 3D first, I think. And that game has a lot of flaws. It's great, but it has a lot of flaws. Doom was the perfection.

It was, it's the Super Mario world of first-person shooters. It's so refined. And it works on a phone because you don't have you know, a screen full of icons for all these different functions. You move, you shoot, and you use. That's it. And it works so well. The movement is perfect.

The shooting is perfect. And I have to agree with Stewart. I like a lot of, I think, Doom 2, like, rounded out the bestery in a good way. I like the Super Shotgun. But Doom 1 is my favorite Doom because it was the first, because I like the level design and pacing better. I feel like, Doom 2, there. One of the most famous levels is downtown, which is fun, but it's so big that there's literally an arrow on the ground telling you where to go. And I feel like if you need to paint an arrow into your level, maybe your design is off.

They're a microcosm for Doom 2, because I'm not going to bitch about Doom 2 for 2 hours, although I probably could. It's a fantastic game, but unfortunately, they put the chain gun soldiers in there, and I just really don't think they're fun. An enemy with a hit-scan weapon that can hit you from across the map and do insane damage almost instantly. then the game will often throw them into bit, like you'll walk into a room and then like three monster closets will open up behind you with chain gunners in them. Yeah. And I get a little bit kind of like, this ain't Doom.

This ain't as good as Ultimate Doom. This is like Doom, but like all the bits that they had left. I agree. Though props for the, I like the Archvile, you know, I like the Revenants. I just don't like those chain gunners. I don't really like the general scope of Doom 2. I don't think it's as good. But I still think it's, I mean, it's still a 10

out of 10 and not insane. Like it's a brilliant, a brilliant game. It's just not as good as the ultimate doom for me. I would say, you know, and again, I won't bitch about it for two hours. I would say it's maybe a nine because I don't think the level design is as refined. I think those big open spaces were novel. But the thing about Doom is if you ever, if you ever have to slow down and think, you know, realize you're lost, I think you have a problem. And that doesn't really happen in Doom.

I also consider Doom 1 as much of a horror game as it is an action game. Doom 2 is pretty much just action for beginning to end. And I think that just speaks to the better pacing of Doom. In fact, obviously the PC version is the best version. But I'm also very partial to the PlayStation port because Williams, yes, like Williams leaned into that. Worked with its software, so it's software signed off on it. But the music and the sound effects, it's a scary game. And it's so good.

It gives it such a different vibe. Who did the music? I can never remember their name. They did the Duke. Audrey Hodges. They did the Doom 60s. music as well, I believe. And Doom 64 is a much more atmospheric kind of like horror one as well. Yeah. There's an interesting sort of sequence there where Williams approached Ed and they're like, hey, we want to do a PlayStation port. And it was like, okay, well, let's see how that goes. And it was such a success that Ed said, you know what? Do a new Doom game. Do whatever you want. And so that's why the PSX soundtrack and his soundcape was carried over to Doom 64. It's because Williams just knocked that out of the park. And it's really, really cool how that came about.

Yeah. I mean, I think, I mean, Doom on the PlayStation, that's, correct me if I'm wrong, but they kind of mashed up the ultimate and Doom 2 and some of the master levels as well as a few new ones thrown in there as well, I believe. It's like a really impressive collection of levels. There's like loads just like well over 50 levels in there. Yeah, they, some, I think that's like all these, a lot of these Doom ports derived from the Jaguar base that it did in house. And one of the novel things about PlayStation Doom is, Doom, ultimate doom is not divided into episodes, right? It's contiguous. So it's kind of a little, like, if you're a doom nerd, you're like, what? You mean I get to keep all my weapons going into shores of hell and inferno? And yeah, like, it's just a cool thing. And yes, Stuart, to your point, if you play in ultraviolence, you will occasionally see some doom two enemies in the Doom 1 levels, which is also just a cool thing.

Yeah. Yeah. I, with Doom, I mean, I think it's possible. I'm quite kind of a purist about it, because I remember playing, oh, is that Doom? or GZ Doom, the source sport, the incredibly impressive source sport. And by default, it has free aim and it's in 60 frames per second. And I'm like, I can't play it like this. I understand that it's probably objectively better.

But this ain't doomed to me. It just feels and looks wrong. So I had to go into the menu and figure out how to half the frame rate and figure out how to make it so I couldn't look up and down because it was so wrong. And I just felt like a beast. Like I was just like taking this hard work that they've done that I'm just undoing it for my own. Oh, God. But it's such a good game, yeah. It's one of those perennials for me.

It's like that, Lemmings, and probably, like, Sonic 1 or something. It's just like the untouchable games. Well, now that we've quickly established why we all love it, I think, I just want to ask another important question, which is, was Doom your first, first-person shooter? David, where is Doom on your first-person shooter experience? I believe it was my second or my third. Yeah? My first FPS was Wolfenstein 3D.

story before. Hopefully not here, but I was sick one day from school. I had to go to my mom's medical transcription class, so I camped out in the back, and it was taught by this little old lady who called me up and showed me Wolfenstein on her computer. I just thought it was the coolest thing, so she gave me the shareware disk. And then a year, year and a half later, I was in Sunday school, again at the back of the room, which is just my stomping grounds, I guess. And my friend Aaron was like, and he showed me this magazine and showed me screenshots of Doom. And I was like, what is this? And I got the shareware of that. I think it came on at least two or three floppy disks. Maybe that was the full version that I ordered from I'd

1-800 number. I don't remember. My mom had to give them her credit card. That's how long ago this was, right? But Doom immediately put Wolfenstein and Catacomb 3D, which I think I'd played on like one of those 1,000 game CD-ROMs, you know, collections. Hell yeah. Put it to shame. Like, Doom is just the most yeah it is it was not my first but it was the first that counted about that right wait why are we calling duma catacombs clone what the heck yeah catacloom nice how about you still um i'm pretty sure it was the first i have this weird long-term memory of seeing at a friend's house that it's just like may and may not have

happened as one of those memories but on my of my first pc came with some pre-installed um shareware episodes of all i demos and there was like lemmings and like the junior platformer and uh doom was one of them was the first episode of doom and you know I wasn't really old enough to be a usually aware that that wasn't the full game and of course I would play through it

using just the keyboard to turn and like I didn't strafe I didn't really fuck with strafing you know um this little kid going through the game eventually figured out how to get the god mode and just cheat and get all the weapons but all in the demo I believe you couldn't get the plasma rifle or the BFG. Correct. So those were alien to me.

But making my way through that game and at the end, you fight the two barons of hell. And as far as I know, that's the end of doom. You go into the final teleports and you get ripped to pieces and it's terrifying. And, you know, I didn't, I mean, I loved it. I thought it was great, but I didn't really get its claws into me until a good few years later when I was in, like, God, I want to say Toys R Us, maybe, with my family

and I saw this box set and this was a long time later and it was like the Deps of Doom trilogy and it's Doom 2 and Maximum Doom which is the master levels plus a load of like watts that gathered from the internet like harvested from the internet and it comes in this big

box with like a big cyber demon on it and the cyber demon it's been like embossed like you know when something kind of pops out from the box and it's like the coolest shit I've ever seen in my entire life and I think it was quite cheap it was like 30 quick as Doom is old by now

and I was just like if I don't get this but I've got my mum by like the lapels I'm like if you don't buy me this I'm never I'm not going to speak to you again for the rest of my life I'm going to do the biggest time okay in a more polite way than that most likely but yeah but then it was just like

delving into this holy shit I have I have like 700 megabytes of what's here just like levels after level like beavers and butthead in Doom where the only difference is that he's just going the whole time like the Simpsons Doom where all the enemies

are Simpsons enemy you're Simpsons characters you know and just like all these mad levels and some of which were not safe for work and that was interesting but it was my first exposure

to like the sheer scope of the game and this was like the Windows version of Doom where when you launch it you'd have like a launcher pick the level go straight into multiplayer because Doom 95 that's what I think what it was called

and at the time I thought it was great I imagine if I went back to it now, I would probably be like, what the hell is this? But at the time, I loved it. And it was a big step up from the shareware. And finally, being able to play through the whole game, plus being able to play through, you know, Doom 2 as well, was pretty great, especially since I let you choose the level, and I could skip right to, like, all the secret levels and mess around

and do the Orphanstein stages and barrels of fun and tricks and traps, which was my favorite level. And that was Doom 2, I believe. Yeah. Big game for me. A bit of a rambling answer, sorry. it's easy to do with doom all love here all love

so I was like David I'm pretty I know I played Wolfenshine 3D first although I think by the time I played Wolfstein 3D Doom was either almost out or coming out very soon I didn't really have access to quality gaming PCs

until I was in my early 20s so I was actually in France and visiting as part of like a school exchange program and the person I was visiting had Wolfenstein 3D, like, on a laptop or something. And I was just, as soon as I saw it, I was kind of transfixed. I'm like, wait, what am I doing?

Oh, wow. And I loved it. And I played it a lot while I was there, probably more than I should have. I probably should, like, spend more time, like, you know, speaking French and trying to, like, get a feel of what, like, what life of France is like. But I was like, no, no, this is much more important, Wolfstein 3D. And then a couple of years later, when I was in college, my roommate had a good computer. and he had Doom and Doom 2. And then it was like, whenever he was, you know,

whenever he was willing to let me do it, I would just get on there and play a lot of Doom. And that was also to be like, oh, this is fantastic. I love this. This is, you know, I recognize that it's being an evolution of Wolfenstein, especially because Doom 2 has like those, like the Wolverstein level thing. But, yeah, it's like night and day.

You know, there's so many things that are just, you know, upgraded and improved and radically reimagined. So I didn't get my own copy. really until many, many years later. I got the PlayStation version, because that was exciting for me. That was the first ever, like, first-person multiplayer game ever did because you could have two PlayStation's and hook them together. So my friends and I went through a lot of hassle to get two PlayStation's and two TVs.

And I think we had to rent a copy from, like, from the video store. So we'd have, like, we bought one copy and rented a copy. And we did all this just to play Doom. And it was absolutely worth it because it was like an awesome night when, like, The second year you're playing Doom and you see another Doom guy running around the screen in front of you, and it's like what your friend is doing, that is like a euphoric feeling that I can't quite explain. It's just like, oh, my God. Look at that little guy. Look at that little guy.

It's my friend. He's a little guy. I think for a lot of people, that was their first, you know, PC multiplayer experience. It was different than like, oh, I'm sitting next to a guy. You know, my friend who's holding the second NES controller. It was a really more magical thing because these two PCs, were talking to each other, like, fundamentally, and it was a really special thing.

I find that interesting, because for me, Doom, like, it's just in no way a multiplayer game in my head. You know what I mean? Like, I have played it on multiplayer before, but for me, Doom is so based around secrets and exploration and combat with these specific types of enemies, that I can't think of it as a multiplayer game. And maybe co-op on console,

but that's still the same experience. It's just there's a friend there to kill him by mistake and on purpose, obviously. It's weird, because I bet for some people the exact opposite is true, and it's pretty much only a multiplayer game, but I thought it was interesting anyway.

I'm kind of the same way. I've played Doom multiplayer, and obviously, like, that was probably one of the big breakthrough features, because Death Match did become a thing, starting with Doom. But I played it much more single player, but to your point, when I interviewed Dennis

Fong, aka Thresh, for this FDisc, PS documentary. He said, oh, yeah, I've never beaten any Doom campaigns. I couldn't even tell you who the final bosses are. I just played multiplayer. Like, it was... And I actually associate multiplayer much more with Quake than with Doom.

Yeah. But it was definitely the start of Death Match and just that becoming the first e-sport over time. Yeah. And Quake sort of, I don't like to use this word wrongly, but it's sort of kind of codified like all multiplayer shooters. Yeah.

Going forward to some extent. And then Call of duty to ruined it, but Boomer's shit was back now, so it's okay. Folks, the holiday shopping season is here, and that means two things. One, you're going to be hearing more songs about bells on the radio than ever before, and two, you're also going to be extremely stressed. But never fear, because uncommon goods is here to take the pain out of holiday shopping. They've scoured the globe to find the perfect gifts for everyone on your shopping list,

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And some of them tried new things. Some of them just tried to make Doom again. and some of them were great and some of them were not so great but for a while there I want to say for a good maybe five years or so like Doom clone was just

that's what you called them no one said first person shooter that is said Doom clone kind of like how in the immediate wake of Street Fighter 2 like there were a bunch of things people tried to say

about other fighting games but it wasn't until like I want to say like mid-90s and people just said oh it's a fighting game you know yeah now it fell out of favor before I want to say

the millennium turned around. And we can talk about why you think that happened. But eventually people decided, no, okay, these are first-person shooters. That's the term we're going to use. And these days, you don't really hear anyone say Doom clone anymore. I think the new hip term for quote-unquote old-fashioned first-person shooters is Boomer Shooter. And I'm wondering, what do you think? Are boomers' doom clones? Are those terms synonymous? Or are they different? I mean most of the ones that I've played are very much like We are biting this game But like Iron Fury is biting Dunycom 3D

Something like Graven is biting like Hexon With a cross between like DSX maybe But a game like dusk is just like Yeah this is quake And a Doom clone I mean there are some like head on which are based on the Doom engine So you could call those Doom clones doom clones in good conscience

I believe. But I gotta be honest, it's not a term that really saw me, I really saw outside of magazines, and it was the same as like a platform of being a Mario clone or like, as you say,

the other example you gave, which has gone out of my head for some reason. Street fighter. Yes, Street Fighter. Yes, exactly. So I think it's a very mixed bag. I think what the boomers are going for is, something that it's more of the kind of like we're sick of this kind of boots on the ground

linear kind of campaign stuff we want like secrets we want ridiculous movement speed and I think quake is the touch point for most of those games personally Doom is there Doom is always there doom is omnipresent because there is no Quake without Doom

and there's no Duke Nukem 3D without Doom but I do think they take I would say as a baseline a build engine level of maneuverability but it really does vary from game to game obviously I mean there are some like the postal one brain damaged

postal brain damaged which don't really feel like anything else but still have this very distinct old shooter feel which I I mean the boomer shooter Renaissance has been like a second coming of Christ to me honestly I haven't played one where I've thought this sucks

and I'm not having fun and I've played almost all of them. It's just been incredible way. The community is mutually decided we want old shooters back and they've brought them back and sometimes better than ever. It's incredible. Yeah, actually, I think, Stu, that's really important what you hit on something. I really feel like the boomer shooters are sort of almost defined by what they're not. Like, they're purposely retro style. They're purposely, you know, aping back to another era that sort of went out of fashion and they're basically bringing it back into fashion. And so it's less about, oh,

we're, you know, we're imitating this, we're imitating this, like, we are not doing this. We don't want a call of duty. We don't want a resistance. We don't want a Duke Nunga forever. I mean, no one wants Duke Nunga forever. I think we've established this. But I don't get me started on I do like that idea that, you know, a boomer shooter is almost like pushing back against, oh no, let's let's turn the clock back to another time and let's not do what, what people are doing now and now it's almost like because of their efforts we kind of have these you know more genres to play with i think it is it yeah sorry i don't want to talk to like super go on and on because of david too i feel bad rambling what i feel like is and i'm not trying to do

one of my patented hot takes here okay but as good as half-life is that was the game that for me was the dagger in the heart of the traditional doom clone because that changed the game like that was a narrative focused like a big open thing I'm sure there are games before it that had similar vibes but Half-Life

was the one because Half-Life is like don't, if you explore the maps you're not going to find anything interesting I mean you might find interesting angles you might find some ally but there are no there's no real secrets maybe a couple of Easter eggs you're following this story through

and it sort of went that way and then of course the next popular one was Call of Duty and that became the whole kind of you can carry two weapons your boots on the ground in a very linear campaign kind of you're not up in the air you're not flying around or anything

and when they did introduce that into Call of Duty it flopped quite hard but then the boomer shooters sort of came back I think in the wake of in 2016 Doom because that was the one that went like oh yeah you get shooters where you can move around really fast of fun

I feel like there is a line there like the last of the original classic shooters, and I'm going to get jumped on for this, is probably Diketana, which is obviously a legendarily, you know, air quote, awful game.

I think it's pretty good personally. I know it has its problems, but it's the last game I can think of where it has that similar vibe where it's worth exploring the maps to find things tucked away in places that are challenging to reach. Because immediately following that or around the same time as that Half-Life comes

along and it's just pretty much straight lines. Not a bad game by any means, but it changed everything. It changed shooters, I think. It killed the Doom clone until the Boomer Shooter brought it back, basically. I think most people would agree with that. Half-Life was definitely a paradigm shift.

I love Half-Life, but I definitely prefer Doom and that style of shooter. I think what Half-Life did really well, and it shares this in common with Doom, is the sense of place was really strong, at least until Zen. That just doesn't exist to me. But the Black Mesa facility was as memorable as any environment in Doom for me.

But I also think just talking about the era of the Doom clone, that was kind of a magical time and not so much out of nostalgia, but because that was before genre titles and definitions became codified and people got really upset if you tried to color outside those lines. The doom clone was a very broad term, and I kind of liked it more broad than first-person shooter. I mean, you have people who say like, oh, you know, Deu-Sac, System Shock, those are not first-person shooters. I'm like, well, they are, but there's a fork there, and that's okay. But, you know, you couldn't really argue like, oh, this is a doom clone. You're like, yeah, it definitely is because you're, you know, first-person shooting. Doesn't matter your weapons, doesn't matter the enemies. It's a doom clone.

I mean, the most important thing in the world to game is apparently is that you describe things within very specific parameters. And that's what they, that's all day. That's what they do all day. They argue about whether a thing is another thing or not. And it's just no way to live your life. It's really not. And these are also the same people who, you know, believe that the console wars are a thing beyond, you know, a marketing blitz and simple competition. But I really like the idea of Doom Clones and the Boomer Shooter.

I'm glad they're back because we are seeing, just as we did in the early to mid-90s when Doom Clown was in Vogue, we are seeing shooters across a broad spectrum experimenting with ideas. And that, to me, was fundamental to Doom Clones. It wasn't just Doom. It started that, for sure. But you had games like Descent and, like, even Heretic, which was Doom with a fantasy skin, but it was still kind of a different thing. you had developers really experimenting with like what else can we do with this sort of thing and it was just a fun time

I absolutely love heretic I loved it when I was a kid I had that somehow and I love that as well can't say I loved Hexon but no you know they tried their very best well I think Hexon had like a cool idea but one of my issues with it was like it was so inscrutable like the second the second level was supposed to be a hub world I could never ever figure out where to go from there. I think I found one or two offshoot areas, but I just got stuck and fed up. I thought Parenthick was a lot simpler and because of that

a lot more elegant and fun. I played Hexon with the strategy guide on my lap and I still got lost constantly. It's one of it's like to basically there's something I love about this as a kind of active defiance in a way but like to progress in Hexon you need to do things that in like

Doom would be a secret like you have found like a berserk pack or something. In this game it's like no, you have go into this room and then on this one part of the grey wall there's a grey switch and if you hit the grey switch it says something moved somewhere yeah and in one of the five connected hub maps you there is now a door that's open or is unlocked or something and it's just like what are you doing and it could have been if they just done another linear game like heretic but with the hex and best here it would

have been awesome there's some really cool monsters and weapons in that game that's why you know I see people, you know, tweeting it or Xing, whatever the hell it's called this week, at Phil Spencer, you know, bring back Hexon. And I'm like, why? Do you know what? That's to me when nostalgia just drives people insane. Like, oh, this old thing, bring it back. If they bring back Hexon and they add in that feature they put into the Quake 2 port

where it has like a compass that shows you where to go next, then maybe. Yes. And I'm the kind of weird, I'm the kind of crappy gatekeeper who will always say, no, make him hard. Do not put you in easy mode. that's me, but with that game, I'm willing to make an exception because it's a fucking pinny ass.

It arguably needed it. Yeah. Like, then, and it needs it now. I was going to sort of add, because it was what you said, and I'm just sort of reiterating it, but I think it's fascinating that Doom Clone covers like everything from Heretic to like, shit like Witch Haven,

you know? Yeah. Just really, I said, I meant that was a bit mean, shit like Witch Haven. Games that are less beloved, like Witch Haven, and I'll say that, because I've not played it that much, and the impression I get is that it's not great, but I don't want to say that if that's not actually true. But every day it seems like I somehow managed to dig up another Doom clone that I didn't know existed, like, friggin cyclones or like Nam, you know?

It's fascinating stuff. Nowadays, you've got stuff like a medieval and this huge spectrum of shooters across all genres, like immersive sims are back and your fantasy ones. Like you already mentioned, a medieval, and that 3D realms one, the name of wrath, Eon of Ruin, that's coming out soon. Mm-hmm. It's just, it's just like, they're just back, baby. Shooters are just back for me. Like, they were gone, and now they're back.

And, you know, I like Call of Duty. I'll play a Call of Duty campaign, but it doesn't compare to Dusk, really. You know, it doesn't compare to something like that. All right, now before we get to the dessert part of the podcast where we all just talk about games we love, I want to do a little bit of veggie, a little bit of veggie digging here, and can we attempt to quantify some qualities that we believe are essential to doom clon, doom clonness? Yeah. So I'm just going to, I'm just going to riff here, and you let me know what you think. So, first of all, like the most basic. First person?

Yes? Yes. Has to be first person. Yeah, I would say so. There are some games like MDK, which are quite close to being a Doom clone that aren't first person, I would say. Mm-hmm. But I'm going to go ahead and say yes anyway, just for the sake of, you know, harmony. Okay.

I remember being Duke, Duke and 3D, I think if you pressed F7, you could play in third person, and Duke was translucent, which was a pretty good idea. So you could still see it was called like Chase Mode or something. Yeah. Like, it was a neat, like, oh, this is, this is kind of a cool thing that exists, but then you go right back to first person. Now, as we discussed earlier, Doom is very much a kind of 2.5D game and that, you know, you are basically on a plane, and while, you know, you can go up and down like stairs and elevators, you never actually have any vertical movement, and you never have to look up or down because that's just not how Doom works. so what about mouse look does that does it bend or break the doom clone walls i'll allow it because you know quake is a doom clone it wasn't going to be that but it became that and quake has mouse look and um i would say i would say yes i think yeah i mean didn't duke have mouse look as well

duke 3d i could be wrong about that it did it did i will allow it i will be more pedantic and i will say I know you can look left and right with the mouse, but to look up and down, you have to press page up and page down, there's the rules. I'm not allowing heretic. We're doing heretic. Okay, so Doom famously gives you a lot of weapons to work with, different shapes,

different sizes, different power levels. But they're all mostly ranged weapons. I mean, you get the chainsaw, and you can punch demons if you get close to them, but basically it's mostly about shooting them far away. So I have a question. would an all-meilay game count?

Because there are some first-person games that are just about like first-person punching and kicking. Does that qualify as Doom Clone? Are there any All-Melea Doom Clones that exist? There must be... I don't... Wasn't that Xbox game called Breakdown or something that was the first person like...

There was, but I didn't even know if that would... See, now we're far outside the era of the Doom Clown. I think the fact that we can't think of any might indicate the answer. I'm not going to, you know, die on the hill, but I would probably say generally no. I mean, I know it's not the same, and it is breaking the rules, but Hexon is all melee for like the first hour and a half to two hours, depending on how lost you get.

That's true. Depending on the class you pick, because only the mage starts with a ranged weapon in that game. So maybe, I don't know, I don't see why it wouldn't count, assuming that the weapons are actually interesting. In fact, I'd like to see this. You know, I'm sure it exists out there. someone's going, you've forgotten about this game, you fall.

But I don't know. I'm wondering if maybe some magazine writer might have looked at, say, Kingsfield and said, oh, look, this is a weird, like, RPG Doom clone because, like, it is first person and you have a sword. But, like, to me, Kingsfield is so different compared to Doom that I really can't call it a Doom clone, you know? I mean, it's a Dark Souls clone, isn't it? Sorry, I'm retroactively. Kingsfield is like, oh, perpetual. on my list, Stuart Jett must play this game, because I know I'm going to love it.

You ever have that thing where you know you're going to love something so you never play it because you want to play at the perfect time? That's my life right now. Yes. Yes. In my case, it's called Middle Gear Solid. And it's literally staring at me on my desk right now. Yeah.

Oh. Yeah. You know, I think Stuart raises some good points. I would add, though, that with Hexon, the melee combat was complimentary. You did eventually, I think every class had range up. I mean, I didn't get far enough to know. Their second or third weapon was ranged, yeah, but it's an opening of just beating the shit out of Aetton's for like two hours, basically. Yeah.

Which also adds to the fact that you're bored as hell when you play Hexon. Yeah, like maybe what they were going for there was like, okay, this was an option in Doom, but this is what you're going to do at the start and you're going to kind of earn your shotgun, so to speak. But it wasn't really, like, it was novel. and I really like the feedback of the melee in that game and the sound, but it definitely, I preferred Heretic because you get shooty, shooty, bang, bang weapons right away. I guess when I think of first-person melee games, they're all modern.

Yeah. Something like Chronicles of Riddick, which is World Past, you know, but nowadays there's stuff like chivalry and Kingdom Come, and those are first-person melee games, but there's nothing within the era that we're talking about, I think, that falls under those. So, no, I don't think, I think I have, I think in theory, yes, but it's never happened,

so it has to be a no, I think. Okay. How about inventory limits or weapon swapping? Because Doom, you know, gives you all these weapons, and you can basically keep them all and just switch between them as your leisure. But as you mentioned earlier, games like Call of Duty and most modern shooters, you only can carry stolen weapons at once

you have to basically change weapons in a different situation so what do you think does that push against Doom clone absolutely inventory limits maybe yes weapons swapping

absolutely not you have to have all your weapons available at any time or pressing the arrows number keys that's just how it's just how it is any deviation from that

your game can go to hell if you look at when it's software any permutation of the company reinvented Doom like Doom 3 was you know they said it was a remake

whether it is or not, whatever. In Doom 2016, Doom Eternal, you have all your weapons available. Once you found it, it's yours. That's Doom. Doom 3, though, I'm going to say it underappreciated. Yes. I like it more than Doom 2. I really do.

Cool. Oh, that's a good one. That's a good take. Now, see, the thing for me is, I have to be honest with you, like, it did take the BFG edition for me to love it. Because while I respect the whole swapping to the torch thing, I do think that just having the torches and attachment is better because it means you can just

be ready to fire at a moment's notice. And when that game, since that game is hard, it's really not easy at all. It's nice to be able to just be ready to fire and ready to see at the same time. I think they rebalanced it quite nicely. But yeah, Doom 3, why did you get through the first, like, hour or two hours? It's

really fucking good. I love it. Yeah, I think that like because Ed was advertising it as much of a horror game as an action game, which to me again is the spirit of Doom I think survival horror is all about making choices that affect your risk, you know, a risk-reward scenario. Yeah.

And I do like having the flashlight mounted, but I also liked having to choose whether I'm going to have a light or shoot. I thought that was a cool little choice. I respect the hell out of that mechanic, and I wish I liked playing it more, but I have to choose the convenience over it personally. I mean, for me, it's like, you get to say, like the fourth map in that game and there's a lot of people who say it's not doom it's not doom and I think the people who say that haven't got that far into it and I know that's a bit of

a dodgy thing to say but if you get to like that fourth or fifth map and you're surrounded by monsters constantly and you're just whipping around firing and firing you're like oh it's an imp I've got to use this oh it's like a baron I've got to use this oh it's the spider things I've got to use this that's doom that's doom like for me what I love so much about the original doom and I'm sorry you've got me off on one again is walking into a room seeing the spread of monsters that's in front of you, taking in the environment as quickly as you can and just being like, okay, the tango begins.

Switch to this weapon. These are hitscan. Take out the hit scan. They're the most dangerous ones. Then we've got some Arachnitron. Switch to a rocket launcher. Go over here, do this. And it really is just automatic when you're good at it.

I'm no expert, but when you get in the zone, it's just like, oh, it's like nothing else. It's so good. Anyway, so that's your question. No. Yeah, I will say that this is related to the question, and this is another hot take. Doom Eternal is not a good Doom game because they, and I wrote about this. I talked to Hugo Martin, among other people, and they said, you know, Doom 2016, basically we didn't like that you had a choice and you could always use the super shotgun if you wanted to.

So we designed enemies at harder difficulties around forcing you, basically forcing you to switch to the optimal weapon to defeat them. And he's like, that's Doom. And I'm like, well, you're halfway right, Hugo, because... I would tentatively and politely disagree, but... With Hugo or with me? With you in the suggestion that it's not a good Doom game. Not in the sense of, like, I know what you mean when you say that. I don't think you just mean it's not a good game, obviously.

Unless you do mean that, in which case, we're going to fight. I think it is a good game. I love watching it. But to me, Doom is quintessential that if I have all these weapons and I choose to use one and can make a strategy work, that's part of Doom to me. But I will clearly – I see what you're coming from. For me, because I'm switching weapons so often in Doom usually for some effectiveness, I really felt like it did capture the feeling of the original Doom in a way that I hadn't really experienced before. But only specifically in the combat, the lack of ammo does bother me. um the way you've got to switch to the chainsaw to get ammo mainly because

mechanically that makes no sense uh why would they why would the enemies be full of ammo it makes no sense i know there's a lot of questions like oh there's no just thing as flying imps anyway but that's not the point there's no connection to me between a chainsaw and ammo there really is none but i still enjoy it once i get into the vibe when i'm not in the vibe it's the worst thing ever i just can't play it i can't get like past one encounter but when i'm into it. I'm just like, yeah. Because I didn't beat Doom 2016 until a few months ago, and by the end

I was just like, because I started out kind of not digging it, and then by the end, a bit like Doom 3 in a way, I was just kind of like, yeah, that was awesome. That was really, really, really fun. But Eternal, it's such a departure, but I do think they managed to capture some of that Doom field in there.

But whenever someone says to me, I didn't like Doom Eternal, I thought it was like, OTT, it wasn't Doom. I'm like, yeah, I get it. I see where coming from as well. I respect that. That's Yeah, like I don't think it's a bad game by any stretch. And I think it was probably the smart decision to go in the direction they did because it, you know, I think if they hadn't, it would have just been Doom 2016 2. It's not that. But, you know, part of what I do like about Doom 2 is the addition of the extra enemies in the Super Shotgun.

The Super Shotgun really rounded out Doom's arsenal in a stunning way. And, you know, if you're low on rockets and you're fighting a bunch of Mancubi, you're not going to, you're not going to, you know, use a chain gun unless you have to. You're going to get out the super shotgun. Whereas if you're fighting a bunch of barons or hellnights, you're going to try to use rockets. That's a choice. And I've never liked that Doom Eternal's like,

nope, you need to use this weapon. I just don't like that. What I think, I think Eternal does well is the feedback from your attacks and stuff because in the original Doom and in Doom 2, the monsters all make distinct noises.

They all have very funny death animations as exhibited by the end of Doom 2 being a parade of death animations that you control. Always funny. Always funny. Yeah, exactly. But when I used to like timing it so that it looked like the imp was killing itself by throwing in a fibrill into its own face.

The way in, I remember laughing out loud in sheer like sadistic glee when I was playing Duma Eternal. I first did a glory kill on the Arachnachnachron. And the way you do it is you grab their own leg. they scream in abject terror and then you jam it in Therai I do look at that. And it's like, what it takes me back to is

the Arrachnetrons from the original Wolf and Doom 2, the first time they appear in Dead Simple on Level 8, which is awesome level because it's like, hey, here's a bunch of monsters you've never seen before and they're going to fuck you up. Yeah. You kill the Mancubos and you're like, holy shit, that was rough as hell. They got like the three-way

fireballs. Then the walls drop and there's like a squad of Arantotrons just surrounding the entire level. First time you've seen them as well. What a great level. But when you kill the Raptanatrons, they make the single callous noise that's ever been recorded in human history. Oh, yeah. And I wish I could recreate it right now. But that's what I love about Doom.

Everything sounds awesome and is perfect. The Mancubus is one of my favorite things ever because it's just this big, relatable mound of shit. Like, it's just like making horrible, like disgusting noises. And then when you hit them, they just go, blah. I love its death animation The way its flesh just kind of sloths off It's so good That's the thing about Doom

That a bestiary is just like It's like they're my friends I know them all intimately I know all their death animation They know all their noises The archfire when you kill it And it goes like Like that

Oh man Can we just make him Can we just do impressions of Doom monsters For the next hour please I'd let to get back to To the topic at hand which is how can we be pedantic about Doom clones. This is what happens when you talk about Doom, though.

Just go off. Like, it's just the most passionate game ever. It's okay. It's okay. We're not off topic. We're just, we're heading for an exit ramp, and I don't want to take the Exit ramp just yet. I'm going to be the BOR.

BOR. BOR. BOR. BOR. BOR. The We're going to be able to be. ...andahs,

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

Well, Stu, I think you mentioned the fact that, you know, speed is a factor here. So, you know, in Doom, like mathematically speaking, you move incredibly quickly, quicker than any human being really should. So is speed a factor in a Doom clone? Also important, is jumping a factor? Because Doom guy does not jump at all. but a lot of Doom clone reminiscent games did have jumping. So jumping a little bit, a lot, too much? What do you think about jumping?

I don't personally think jumping disqualify as you because Doom clone for me is a certain type of level design, which is relatively intricate with keys and doors for those keys. Maybe they're not necessarily keys or doors, but gates like that with something you needed an item to get past them. And of course, secrets. The reason I can't discount jumping is because Duke Nukem 3D heavily features it. Like, the beginning of Duke 3D, you drop down into an area where the first thing you can do is jump up onto a window ledge and get an RPG.

And that doesn't feel like a portrayal of Doom to me. It feels like an extension of it. And I don't think Doom disqualifies. I don't think jumping or necessarily crouching disqualify you, as long as it's still got that same expiration focus on those same kind of maps where it's worth. exploring, you know? When you find resources, they're not permanent upgrades, but they make it easier. They make the level easier for you, but by giving you more weapons or more ammo or like way more health or something, it should be rewarding to explore, I think is more important.

Jumping is part of that, so yes. Yeah, yeah, I would agree. Based on just, you know, Duke 3D was a pretty blatant Doom clone with, you know, more realistic environments and different interactions, but also, again, Quake. Quake is very derivative of doom and had jumping. So, yeah, jumping is totally permitted. That was supposed to be the quaint jumping list. No, I got that.

I got that. Okay, good, good, good. All right. So I think we're touching upon some important issues here where I think, Stu, you're talking about how the levels, the levels are bigger thing than whether or not you can jump. So let me ask one more pedantic question about this. So exploration is important. What about tight corridors? Are tight corridors important?

Yeah. I would say so. I mean, Doom 2 had this mix of, you know, big open areas and then you go inside and it was, you had, you know, larger rooms, but definitely like claustrophobic corridors was part of the design. So I don't know that it's required, but I would say you need a focus on interior areas because that's where a lot of the tactics and strategy in Doom's combat came from. Like, how am I going to, to use these weapons in this small space, in this large space, in this, ah, this porridge is just right-sized space. Ah. Yeah. To me, it's, you know, I don't know if you need it, but I think it should be present to something.

Yeah. I mean, the original, like, going way back to Doom, the original Doom, is that first level, you know, E1M1, everyone knows it, like, back to front. and the first thing that you see is outside into a large courtyard, which is clearly accessible because there's a blue ammo in the middle of a slime pit out there. And that's, you know, that large space is your, and Doom does this quite often, especially in the first episode, is large free spaces are often your reward for exploring. And like, you'll be able to, like, for example, on level two or three, you can get outside of the main complex into the sort of outside, into the grounds.

you know, and that's where you find, like, the chainsaw, that's where you find, like, a solstphere. And those intricate corridors, when they do give way to a larger space, is always very rewarding, I think. It's like you've stumbled across something that you shouldn't have. So to me, yes, it's important to have that, but you do need the contrast between the intimate, intricate, claustrophobic spaces and the large, more open areas.

I hate to mention it again, but, like, Duke 3D does this very well with its sense of place. the fact you can get the jetpack and just go up out of bounds almost is just very, very cool but even in Doom it's there like the first stage is a series of connected larger rooms with corridors between them

that vary in what they off like the first room if you turn around immediately there's a larger space with some steps to show you look you can go up steps in this game following that rounds with a second larger room which is still interior but it has that large kind of what's the word like a stage almost

with former humans on it and then of course the next area is even larger and it's the slime pits where there's a shot an imp up on a higher ledge firing taking pot shots at you and it just creates this this illusion of freedom

when you're obviously being funneled along and past the slime pits there's a secret door to your right which is how you get out side and that's the kind of thing where a lot of players back in the day would have been messaging each other or talking to other and saying how the hell do you get out there because that's not easy to find if you're new to the game if the game's fresh to you to answer the actual question I think I think they are necessary and I think it's not that they are a must I think there needs

to be linearity is the sort of heart and soul of the games really but in a sense where it's more you might have to go to the other end of the map and then come back to progress with a key or something like I don't know if any of you I'm sure you have but they've played redneck rampage yes that's like the apex of this in terms of like there's a key lying around somewhere that's like almost impossible to see that opens a door it doesn't tell you which door it opens um hell of a game where UFOs are big rigs and come from out of space stopping off at the truck stopper Looking for some food to eat

You can't get no breeding and weedies Appalach a great unknown UFO's a big rigged First of home All right then Let's move on to sharing Some of our favorite Doom clones

Because I feel like there are so many I think we could all come up with a couple examples that we think are just fun games that sort of borrow ideas from Doom but basically do their own thing and we should reward them for it. So why don't we start, David, we'll do one at a time.

So Dave, why don't you just go ahead, pick one of your favorite doom clones, David? Well, I'm going to say Doom 2. I mean, you don't get more literal Doom clone than that because it was the same engine, the same enemies, but with more, the same weapons, but with one more. It was, it followed its software's model. What they would do is they would make a shareware game first, release it for free, and then sell you the full game because you wanted more. They did it with Keene, Wolfenstein, and then Doom.

So the idea was, okay, the second game, since you know and love this, it's going to be full retail, no shareware. And it was very derivative, but in a good way. It was supposed to be more of the thing that you wanted. And so Doom 2, I still maintained, even in the FPS documentary, there's a chapter that called Attack of the Doom Clones. And the first one, I put Doom 2 right there because it kind of kicks, started the Doom closings, in my opinion.

It's hard to disagree because, as we've discussed already, it does feel distinct from Doom. It feels like it's moving into different space, I think, as a shooter. The level designs are very different, and it's still brilliant, you know, but you gave it one number, you gave it one number lower than the number I gave it, therefore we must fight the death, obviously, but it's a fantastic game that pushes Doom made the mod scene even richer,

like insanely much richer, with its smart additions to the best three, as we've discussed as well. And, you know, the Super Shotgung, which is just the funnest weapon ever, makes the coolest sounds ever. So what more can you want? Certainly the end of the game,

which has a very unusual boss fight, I would say that's certainly a massive departure from anything you see in the first Doom, for sure. Oh, the icon of sin. Yeah, I love that because it's like you're going to fight a wall with a really mean face, but inside it is the true final boss, right? Like, you're shooting John Romero's head the whole time, which is just a lot of fun. When I was a little kid, I found that by accident, and it scared the shit out of me. I just, like, clipped through the wall, because I wanted to see if there was anything behind the icon of sin, and it's just suddenly like, oh, my God.

Yeah, that's what he says at the beginning. it's like to destroy the me you must defeat John Romero in like backwards I think it's like the first thing he says I like the icon of Sim because when you start the level all of the shit that you need is right in front of you and you're like oh boy just all the weapons in the game

laid out and you just know it's about to get hot it's about to get rough it's not that bad actually if you just grab one of the invulnerability icons and you're good at shooting rockets it's all right it's not too bad actually this is an interesting lateral step doom was intentionally designed

as was Wolfenstein to allow you to beat any level if you started with just the default weapon, the pistol start. I don't know that that's a requirement of the Doom clone, but it is a really cool feature. Like, that's, uh, Desino is my favorite Doom streamer, YouTube or whatever. Um, and his, all of his maps, even when he plays a megawad, which is a, you know, an episode, a themed episode of Doom levels, he starts every level with just the, you know, the pistol, 50 bullets, and 100 health. And it's really cool to know that you could beat the commercial.

commercial Doom games, Doom wads, most of them, by starting with the default setup. Like, it gives you everything you need. And that level, to storage point, like, here's everything right here. You're going to need all of this. I think that's awesome, but nothing in this world is going to get me

to do perfect hatred on an ultraviolence with a pistol star. It's not anything. No. I can't do it either. I just like that it is a thing. All right, Stu, why don't you share you do clone? Okay. I'm going to pick Rise of the Triad

because I don't have another outlet. to talk about it really um okay right rise of the triad is actually closer to orphanstein i think it might actually be the wolfenstein engine running it is uh but it's also uh post doom by a i want to say 95 96 i could be wrong here but what what rise of the triad is is completely out of its mind like it's one of those games where they just went every single idea they had there when yeah throw it in like so not only can you turn into a god with god mode as in an actual whoa, wave your hands,

glike going everywhere, killing everything. But there's also dog mode where you turn into a dog and you can get through small gaps and like bite enemies but the jugular and kill them and stuff. You can get like shrooms mode

where the screen starts wobbling around crazy like you're on Cisylope, so many whatever it's called. Bouncing mode where you'll be bouncing around off the walls and completely like rubber and like a pinball.

All the enemies, you have infinite ammo for all your weapons except for rockets, so you're just constantly firing, basically, while bouncing around off these bounce pads, climbing up, flying platforms, dodging fire tracks, dodging spear traps, shooting triad members in the face.

And it's a completely insane game. I would struggle to say it was definitively great because it really is a hot mess, but it's a fascinating hot mess, you know? Because of nothing had been set in stone, it's an FPS which has a live system I think that Wolfenstein may have had that as well but you've got collectible coins to get more lives

you've got little weird ideas like you collect porridge to get your health up but if you shoot the porridge with a rocket it cooks it and gives you more health just darn my every idea they had they threw in there and there's something about that that just like sings to me you know I love it and of course recently night dive put out Rise the Triad ludicrous edition which I suggest you buy because it's an awesome

and finally this game can be played properly on a modern PC with all the options you could even imagine there's like no reason for them to have gone so hard on the options like all the alternative HUD you can use you can emulate different sound cards to get the soundtrack sounding the way you remember it it's crazy how much effort they put into this all of the original expansions extreme rise to the triad all that stuff and they added a brand new episode full of new levels in there

plus all multiplayer it's amazing I strongly recommend it And I didn't just pick it to have an excuse to plug that. Okay. I genuinely want people to buy it because it's a fantastic game. Thank you. Well, I'd like dominate one myself. And I want to talk about Alien Trilogy a little bit because that was one I had on PlayStation. I think came on Saturn 2, but I definitely remember playing it on PlayStation.

And it's funny. They call it Alien Trilogy because in theory it's based on the first three alien movies, which, by the way, can you imagine a reality of there are only three alien movies? It's kind of weird to think about now. But really, but really, when you get down to it, it's like 90% aliens because you are, you know, you're in these bases, you've got guns, all the guns are from the film, almost all the sounds are from the aliens film, and some of them, like, most of the monsters are basically, you know, facehuggers and the xenomorphs. And I think they have some of the dog ones later on, because that's from Alien 3. But really what it is, it's a first-person shooter with a very thorough alien skin on top of it. And I think at the time, I was just very excited to have, you know, this sort of comprehensive effect.

Like, you've got the radar in the lower screen. It makes all the radar noises, you know, the motion detector, the guns sound just like the movie guns. And I also like that, you know, you shoot the aliens. And, of course, they leave behind this bloody mess. But their blood is acid. So if you walk over a dead body, you take some damage. That's cool. I get grossed out by the face.

I just crawling up the screen. It freaks me out every time I have. It's weird, yeah. That is very strange. That's taken from the Jaguar Alien vs. Spred of the game, just a bit of random trivia there. Oh, okay. Well, not taken from it, but it's the first thing you'd think to put an alien game. The first person in an alien game is a face like a crawling up, your face.

It's so gross. Every time it happens. See, I haven't played this game extensively. Does the variety visually get better? Because the early levels are all just like, you're on a spaceship, yeah. But does it ever change? Does it ever change, like, color even or get, like, any different?

I think later levels get a little bit more alien, but it's kind of, I think that's probably one of the downsides to the game is that, you know, eventually I think you're going to do

everything you're going to do in the game pretty quickly. So it's like, you have to basically get all in and like, you know, if this is fun for you, running around, shooting the aliens and picking up,

you know, stuff from the movie, that's going to work. But I think if you get tired of that, then you might just get tired of it. Like, I don't know. That's not me.

That's not me attacking it. I just, I like this game. I just was, I've only played it a little bit because I don't know why. I should get stuck into it. There's a fair few PS-1

FPSs that are really weird that I want to play like P-O'd, but that's another episode. Yeah, I can't remember if this is Alien Trilogy or Alien versus Predator. I think it might be

Alien versus Predator, but you can be the human, you can be a Marine, and one of the things I thought was cool was when you got near an enemy, your radar would ping and you hear the and it was really, really, atmospheric and I like that

just because it's a first person shooter I have to throw it in there it's alien trilogy adjacent and I like that game I think that happens in trilogy as well you get the radar in trilogy as well

it's absolutely necessary as well it is okay that makes sense you definitely have the radar absolutely and it makes all the noises yeah it's a cool game I liked it I thought that the shotgun was really satisfying to use

and I liked it a lot Thank you. All right, David, why don't you give us another Doom clone of yours? I'm going to throw out Doom 64, which I also like more than Doom 2, and here's why. First of all, it wasn't just a Doom port. Doom was being ported to everything and then some back in the day, and most of them were just ports of Doom and or Doom 2. But Doom 64 took all of Doom and Doom 2's weapons and monsters, gave them new looks, not all of which work, but it was still a cool, you know, by that time, it was this 1997. Doom had been a thing for four years. So it was like, you know, giving it a fresh coat of paint. We kind of revitalized it a little. The level design and atmosphere, as we said earlier, much more in line with the original Doom's horror motifs. And it had more of an emphasis on even more exploration, which you had. had to do very thoroughly because there were a lot more puzzles, which I thought was a cool

addition to to Doom. I mean, there were puzzle-like elements to Doom and Doom 2, but Doom 64 kind of leaned into that, not to the same degree as something like Hexon, which was just so, you know, inscrutable at times. But I really, really enjoyed Doom 64. I love that game. And Doom 64 has the game-long quest to get all the pieces. for the Unmaker that makes the final boss

much easier and getting that is like full on you need a guide like you're not going to find that off your own back like I would be astonished if someone was able to do that like now you know the same with like getting to the level hectic which is the most atchuse requirements

to get it I think it's like shoot all the explosive barrels on level one except for the one at the beginning yeah then go back and shoot that one and then a teleportable open. I think the saving grace there. Which is impossible.

Yeah. Sorry. I was going to say the saving grace was like unlike Hex and you don't need the Unmaker. It will make the final boss easier. But you can still get through the whole game. I mean, I beat that whole game and only had like, I think I found it somewhere. Because one part is slightly easier to find than the others as I recall. Yeah.

But even though it wasn't fully powered up, like it was a cool thing. I like the idea of like, hey, there's this optional weapon that you can assemble rather than just finding it full and intact like the other ones. I thought that was a cool thing. And again, totally optional. The night dive port obviously makes it easier, which is nice. Because, you know, you can finally play that game with a Mars and keyboard if you want to. Yes.

Yeah, Doom 64 was definitely an early favorite of mine because, like I said, I didn't have a gaming PC. So I got the PlayStation version. I got Doom 64 for my N-64. And I remember, you know, having seen so much of Doom on a friend's PC and on the PlayStation, getting Doom 64 home and putting it in the machine, it was kind of, kind of my. blowing how different it looks and how different it feels and how different it sounds. Lighting, especially, they had a lot of lighting tricks they used. And, of course, they actually use proper 3D graphics, so, like, the levels are more complicated.

You can, like, you know, the original Doom, you can't, you can never go over a space you would go under a space, because it doesn't really exist. But Doom 64, it lets you do that, because it's all 3D now. Yeah, doesn't it have early on, there's a spiral staircase that would be completely impossible on the original. engine. I might be wrong about that. But yeah, the addition of the new monsters, like the nightmare imps and things like that as well, the sound effects from the PS1 version, I thought, fit this version a lot better because the way they redrew the guns and stuff. Yeah, it's tremendous. It's like just basically Doom 3, but not. It's fantastic. It's better than, it's better than friggin' Final Doom. I don't hate Final Doom, but I do hate parts of Final Doom.

And we should probably mention that it is made by not it software. I think that they had involvement, but it was made by Midway, I think Midway San Diego. So it's very much someone else looking at Doom and making more Doom. They just had the official license to it. It was Doom 64 that has that freaking awesome opening where it's like the monsters all fighting and it zooms out to reveal the environment is the Doom Lego. It's something badass. Yes, yes.

And then a baby cries. And then I was going to say, crying babies, you got to mention the crying babies. It is a all-time great opening. Just awesome. All right, Stu, why don't you give us another Doom clone? I'm not going to talk about it that much, but I want to just shout out Zero Tolerance on the Mega Drive real quick. Okay.

I don't... Zero tolerance is this... It's not Wolfenstein quite, but it's also not Doom, and it couldn't be Doom, obviously, on the Mega Drive. You needed a 32X for that, and even then that was not the best version of the game by some distance. but zero tolerance I want to

shout out just because what you essentially do is you've got to clear out all the maps as FPS obviously you pick your character they've got relatively different stats and then you have to clear out each floor of this space station or this space base or whatever it is that you're on

you've got a sort of semi-radar to tell you where the enemies are but the thing that makes zero tolerance really fun to this day in my opinion is the way that they animated the enemies when you shoot them with a shotgun and they go flying back into the walls like there was no reason for them to go that hard

but they know they were like this game's a little bit limited there's not a huge amount you can do here because it's a mega drive of FPS so make it that when you shoot the enemies where they really hurt like make it clear that they've been really badly hurt so you'll shoot your shotgun enemy at close range

blood spues out of them they'll fly back into the wall another blood splatter will appear and then they slump over dead and it's like yeah this game's cool Zero tolerance they were going to do a sequel called Beyond Zero Tolerance They got cancelled but you can play it on you can prototype is out there on the internet Or if you buy zero tolerance from Kabyte on the switch I think it's on the switch it might be on this stuff as well

You're getting zero tolerance beyond zero tolerance And the levels that were intended for the mega CD version of the Sega version of zero tolerance And they've came out and they're on there as well So if you are a big fan of admittedly to most people quite mid-megadrive FPSs, then I highly recommend this zero-tolerance collection. I really do think it's worth a look, because I promise you, you will be pleasantly surprised by it. Neat. I didn't really think about first-person shooters on the Sega Genesis Mega Drive, so that's kind of a surprise for me.

There's only like two is that bloodshot and the FPS level of toy story, which isn't really a shooter at all. There's probably more, I'll be a corporation, kind of, but there's probably more I'm forgetting as well. You start me on the Mega Drive. It's 35 the other day, and that is the ultimate console. The ultimate. Well, I'd like to mention blood. Not the fluid floating in my body. Not the fluid floor of my body, but...

What a game, Diamond. What a game. The 1997 first-person shooter. Now, I think Blood kind of has a lot more in common with Duke Nukem in that it is... First of all, it's a build-engine game, and you've got a wisecracking hero, so there's a lot of Duke DNA in it. But I think what's more important is that, again, And we talked about, you know, mood and atmosphere.

So blood is definitely a horror game. You know, your character, like, worked for a demon or something and, like, got cast out. And they wake up in a shallow grave. It's like... Caleb is the guy, I think his name is Caleb. Yes. So the entire game has a very strong, you know, horror themes, and there's demons, and there's monsters. Like, I don't know if you're supposed to be...

Like, if you were supposed to work for Satan or just some monster, but, like, it's very clear that you were dealing with these sort of dark forces. And... The first thing that happened... as you come out of a coffin. Yeah. I live again. I love that. I love it.

Oh, the blood is peak. Like, when I was a kid, blood used to frighten me as well, like, kicking the heads around. And, oh, it was so violent. Like, it was, it felt illegal, you know. It was that level of unpleasantness. It's like, this game is called blood. That's so intense. And then you play it, and you're just pitchforking zombies to pieces.

It's horrible. I love it. Yeah, and I think what just an all-time great weapon. Oh, my. God, the whole game is, the whole game is just, like, we could do an hour on blood, seriously. There's so much cool shit in that game. I just love the whole idea of, like, the flare gun. You shoot an enemy once, and then you wait, and eventually they'll go on fire.

But initially, when I played it, I was like, why isn't this gun doing anything? And I was just firing it over and over again, but all you do is fire once, and then just wait. And, yeah, brilliant. Sorry, your Diamond, you've picked a great game here. You've got me all riled up. Yes, I suppose that we could. could probably talk about blood a lot, maybe even until an episode, but I just, I definitely had to highlight it here because, again, I think before I ever got a good copy of Doom on

my PC, I had a copy of blood that I managed to get working and just, yeah, the weapon variety, so many weird weapons in that game, you, and it's funny, at the time, I actually had not seen that many horror films, but like, if you revisit it now, it's like, it is packed to the gills in implicit references to horror films. films, you know, almost, almost too many, you know? It's almost too many. It's like Duke 3D referencing, like movies and stuff. It's very much in that engine, or engine in that vibe, but it is in that engine as well.

So, yeah, it's, I mean, the thing about blood is, like, all of the ones that we've talked about, behind Doom, this is one of my top ones. Like, I love this game. This game is hard as hell. Oh, yeah. The first level is really hard. if you don't know what you're doing. And even if you do know what you're doing, it can be quite difficult,

especially if you go into the church and you're surrounded by the monks with machine guns. Unless you are good already at throwing dynamite, which can kill you if you do it wrong, it's nails hard game, but really fascinating,

which I think it's interesting if front loads of the difficulty like that, because once you beat that level, it starts to get a lot easier because you start to get weapons. And, oh man, what a game. Yeah, fantastic. You can buy it now as blood-fresh supply

from Night Dive. And there are some elements of it that are kind of fucked up, but you won't know them unless you're a complete nerd, so it's okay. That first level was really long, too, like almost a game in and of itself. There was just so much to see there. And I think back then, in the 90s, in the shareware era, the first level was what you played the most, because if you had shareware, you know, it didn't cost anything.

And if you download it, I think it was like five bucks if you bought it in the store. And so most people had exposure to that first level, and Blood put on a good showing. I did, as much as I enjoy it, I did find it, and all three of the build engine games, at least from the 90s, really hard because you just take so much damage with every shot. But that kind of increased the, you know, that made the challenge more fun, especially coming from a lot of Doom as I did. I think it's encouraging you in like that and in Doom UK and 3D to use the med kit, to use the doctor's bag and stuff, like to keep your eye on the inventory. But what do, I mean, the reason Doom is superior to those games, just because you don't have to worry about any of that shit.

It's all there in front of you. It's all laid out. And I love Duke and I love blood. But Doom is, like, if I could give a game an 11 of 10, it would be Doom. Like, it's the top. It's the top. It's the bar. No one's cleared it.

All right. Why don't we go one more time, and David, one last, one last Doom Clown for you? Well, we talked a good bit about Heretic and Hexon. I think Heretic was, just a quick mention here. I think it was probably the closest Doom clone, other than Doom 2, of course. That really just did feel like a re-skinned of Doom, but with a fantasy motif. So I'll mention dissent. That was one of the first That was a Doom clone, but it really broke out of that mold in certain ways.

The six degrees of freedom was really cool. It made a lot of people motion sick. But it just, it offered a literal new perspective on first person shooters. And I, as a kid, like, I got lost a lot, but I just remember feeling like, wow, this is such a cool world to explore. and I'm a ship instead of a, you know, a big buff dude with a shotgun.

It felt, it had one foot in Doom clone and one foot in its own, in its own little world. And I really like dissent. I thought it was a lot of fun. It still holds up pretty well today, especially because there are source ports, that smooth out a lot of the, you know, a lot of the jaggies and the pixels and that sort of thing. The rebirth, right? DX rebirth. Yes, yes, that's it.

And it makes the game, like, completely, playable in full 3D with a mouse and everything. It's absolutely fantastic. So this day holds up really well. There's a new one with a different name that I forget the name of, and I really need to try it out. Actually, I'm glad you mentioned the mouse, because I think that might have been the first FPS

where I used the mouse, because it kind of felt necessary. Like, it was, the controls were just a little more complex than Doom, that I kind of needed a mouse to just kind of help me, you know, rotate and orient myself more. in these corridors as I was zooming around them. Yes, and it's funny we should mention this now

because we recently recorded a podcast and we need to establish this. So this is a dissent which is a video game as opposed to the dissent, which is a terrifying film about women in caves that we've discussed recently on our community podcast. Good movie.

Yes, very good movie but also terrifying. Yes. Because of the caves. Also monsters, but really the caves. Stu, get one more from you? Yeah, I have talked about it extensively, but I do want to give the nod again to Junet Newcomb 3D because there's a reason it's held in such esteem.

There's a reason people cared about Junete Newfound Forever once, excuse me, Duke Newcomb Forever once upon a time. Oh, what a disappointment that was. I don't want to talk about Duke too much because I do plan to do a Duke episode sometimes. I knew, I know you will, yes. It deserves respect. and I'm going to give it that respect.

But it was huge. It was doom except that the main thing for the Duke Nukem, for Duke Nuisance that made it stand out was interactivity because it was like, oh my God, you can do stuff. You can go to the toilet. You can give money to strippers and look at boobies. You can turn on like a projector. You can like go into a wanking boo, the masturbate or whatever.

It's just like, I know all the things you can do are just great. things but that's what it was that's who it was for you know it was for 40 year old boys but it's just a tremendous game with this great verticality really fantastic secrets and level design like all the way through the game as well all three episodes just really good the whole time some of these games their first episode was amazing than the rest of them were a bit more kind of like okay let's get the rest of the episodes done you know but not duke 3d that was good the whole way through plus the expansion was fantastic as well and it's kind of a reason why it developed its own scene with the build engine, with, you know, follow-up Shadow Warrior, which we haven't mentioned at all,

which is great, by the way, except it's racist as hell, and, of course, blood, you know. Just a tremendous, like, you know, lineage of games there, but Duke was the one that started that whole kind of heavy interactivity, slightly more focus on inventory, slightly more focus on messing around with things like RC cars in the middle of a level and stuff like that. a game with a real sense of humor and a real sense of fun, you know. I love it to death, and it's still available on everything because there's a, I think it's called World Tour Edition, and it's a little bit maligned because it's gearbox now, but I say, don't worry about that. Life's too short. Just, you know, get that.

You'll have Duke and you'll have the rebirth and you'll have the brand new World Tour expansion made by the original level designers, which is extremely good. There was a version called the Megaton Edition, which had more, but that's not available anymore. Do you snooze you lose? Sorry. Yeah, I have to jump on the Duke Love bandwagon here because, first of all, I love that some of the interactivity mechanics had a function. Like, if you go up to a urinal and you take a piss, you actually regain a little bit of health.

Now, if you break toilets or urinals, it spouts up water. You can actually drink that, and you get one health back every time you take a little sip. Yeah, just standing there waiting for ages where health takes me. And that was a really cool thing because most of the levels, at least the one set on Earth, had toilets somewhere. And so, you know, if you were kind of down on your luck and you couldn't find any health kits, you could just go slurped from a toilet for 30 or 45 minutes. Yeah, yeah. But even better, you can go to a dukema arcade machine and then you select it. And he says, I don't have time to play with myself.

And I'm like, I get it. Like, I get it. That's funny. But it's introducing things like the hollow duke, but you can drop. The enemies will then focus on, which is like completely fresh to me. It's like,

I mean, kind of from Heretic a little bit. Yeah. You can use like the steroids, which gives you super speed and stuff. It's a bit like the wings that you get in Heretic. But Heretic have the edge

with the tone of power that transforms every weapon to make them a little bit more interesting, which I thought was cool. Yeah, and we've touched on this a bit, but I, like, the second episode takes place on this moon. based. And it's kind of cool. It's unique. But episode one, especially, the, the locations that

you visit felt real. Like, the Doom engine was made for abstract level design. And it's really, like, it feels like its own, it feels like a futuristic setting. But in the first, first and second levels of episode one of Duke 3D are two of my favorite levels of all time, just because they feel like real places. Like, you can even shoot out vents and, like, crawl in them and drop down in other rooms. they have a strong sense of place that you didn't see realistic environments in video games a lot at that time, much less to the scale of Duke 3D, and they were just so impressive. At level 2 of Duke, you need of memory serves when you go into the adult porno store. And then at the back of the porno store, you go through a vent,

and that's when you first find the women in the cocoons. Yes. And it's almost like a moment of just like, what's going on here? They've hit this away quite nicely. and then of course the whole impetus for the whole game and I apologize in advance is the whole nobody steals our chicks and lives and you know I stand by that

I stand by that as a motivation and then you know level two you can go and blop an entire freaking building which is awesome you can later you go to the San Andreas Fult and you witness one of the biggest earthquakes imaginable you even go into a nuclear submarine at one point it's just a very good sense of doing cool stuff

but then what I should mention because I think the fight's going to enjoy this is in the second episode. You go on the Enterprise. One of the levels is just the Enterprise. Like, you look at the map and it's fully just it. It's great.

I'm actually blanking right now. Did Dukukum weapons have alternate fire modes? No. No, I don't think so. No, okay. Because that was... Hexon did... Heretic and Hexon had the time of power

for the alt-fire, but that didn't. The first one I can think of with alt-fire was... God, what was it? That's a good question. Did Hurt did Hurt have Alt-fire? I don't remember Heretic. having all fire, but I could be wrong. Blood definitely has it.

It was only when you use the Tome of power, I think. The Tome gives you an alternate fire. It's not trouble up. But blood definitely has it. Yeah, you're right. Blood definitely has it, yeah, because you can use the, one of the ones I love is the machine gun with it's just kind of straight fire. But if you use the old fire, you actually do a sort of spray the room. It's really, really cool.

What a game. What a Doom clone. Yes. And I have one more I wanted to mention just because, again, And I was buying a lot of these games on console because I wanted to have more Doom-like experiences. So for the Sega Saturn, later on PlayStation, and I think these days, actually very recently they made a PC port of it, like a modern PC port of it. Yes, and it's terrific. Is Power Slave.

And Power Slave is a really weird one because at first you're like, wait, it's an Egyptian first-person shooter, but there's a twist. It's aliens. So you're in Egypt, but there's aliens and you're, so you're shooting. these sort of creatures that are kind of like, you know, beetles and like, you know, like dog-headed, like, God people, but I guess they're the aliens or animating them. But you do talk to, like, I think,

Kim Ramsey's ghost or something, and he, like, tells you what to do. Yeah. It's like the mysterious voice in Wario Land 3. It tells you where to go next. But there's also kind of, you know, dare I say the word, a Metroidvania feel because...

There is directly. I mean, of course, yeah. Yeah, because King Ramsey says, need you to get these things for me, and when you pick up these items in different stages, they're not just like tokens. They give you, like, new powers and abilities. Oh, cool. And it lets you, like, progress further and do things you couldn't do before. So, like, it's interesting. And I think you also revisit levels a little bit more often. Like, you don't just like, it's not just like, do stage one, say, two, the three. It's like, oh, now you're over here. Now you're on a camel to go this place.

Like, also, the camels make a noise that I think is just from Doom. So I think that's funny, too. Yeah, the exit to the level is a camel. it's great but it's like just to make that just to sort of clarify slightly even though

what you said is more than correct it's like you'll go to an area you'll find whatever you need exit you'll go to the next area and you'll get an item

that lets you swim and then it's like okay now I can swim I can go back to Karnak and there was a river there I can dive into the river and see what's down there you'll find another exit

and then that will lead to the next level go to that level then you get an item to let you double jump or hover or glide or something and the whole whole game is just built around you progressively getting more and more

maneuverable and powerful and hiding little secrets everywhere in every little nook and cranny like really well hidden stuff it's a brilliant game power slave it's really really good and the satin version was probably the best version until the PC like new one came around uh to me it was called exhumed because they called it exhumed in pal for some reason okay and when it when they did the remake they called it power slave exhumed which is the perfect way to nail this to the ground but no I compare it a little bit to Metro Prime. Honestly, I feel like

it's like the proto for that, but I like it better than Metro Prime. So it's okay. Power Slave Exhum. So yeah, Konami should just call the new Contra ProProtector, right? Put a colon in there. Hell yeah. But I've got to warn people. Power Slave on the PC. Get Power Slave exhumed. Don't just get

Power Slave, because you can buy that separately, and it's nothing like this. Like, the original PC version of Power Slave, it's a completely different game. with none of this interesting stuff, it's just like a normal first-person shooter with Egyptian shit. It's not horrible, but it ain't power slave exhumed,

so be careful. Fire beware. All right. Well, I think we've touched upon everything. And I wanted to have a section at the end about what happened to the Doom clone. But I think we kind of touched upon it because we said it. And honestly, you gave the example I would have given, which is Half Life. Half Life arrived. Amazingly, the timeline is amazing. So Doom launched December 1983. Half Life launched November 1998. So almost exactly five years later, we got a, you know, pun and intended game changer, and it just, like, yes, it's a first-person shooter in that you have this character and you have a bunch of guns, but it just, it does not have the same, it has a different mood, has different atmosphere, has different, you know, different goals, and just totally, totally change things up and really alter our expectations for what the genre could offer. And I think it led to, it led to a lot of great games. I think it also led to maybe some

of a lot of the same games. So I do appreciate that now we do have this sort of alternate branch and we have even more kinds of first-personed shooters. You know, we have first-present shooters without shooting. You know, we have the walking simulators, which are basically, you know, explore a place and maybe you get some keys

and maybe you find it your sister was gay the whole time. But really, you know, gone home is kind of a doom clone, sort of. I can't believe you spoiled gone home. It's all right. I think you can still enjoy it, even if you, you know, but the queer twist. Well, I think it's interesting that the first person went from, if you are playing in first person, you will be shooting to what it is now.

I mean, MIST was first person, but obviously it was a clicking game. But now, real Mest lets you strafe your way through the island, Missed Island, you know. Someone should mod real Mest and give you the Super Shotgun. I'm pretty sure that's true. no reason. I bet that exists. I bet that exists, yeah. But it is fascinating how the sort of genre is kind of evolved, because now

we have so many different branches of first person shooter. We've got the coder-like, the cool, duty, like, which no one really competes with anyway, because they can't. And the boomer shooters are out there now, you know, and then there's sort of mid-tier stuff like Chernobyl light and things

like that. But it's a fascinating world that we've come to, and I'm really glad that everything seems to exist together now. Like, when Half-Life was popular, old-school shooters were just, like, not on the radar, because nobody cared about them anymore. It was just like, this is the new hotness. You know, cinematic gaming. And that extended to even, like, I would say arguably, like, Quake 2 leans more in that direction as well. Good as it is.

It does lean in that direction, I think. But, no, yeah, now boomers shooters have brought everything back, so there's no reason to complain. You can get what you want from whatever angle you choose to approach it. It's great. Yeah, I would agree with that. I love that there's such a broad spectrum of games. You know, people who still want, like, a, you know, a Halo or Call of Duty or Battlefield, those are out there.

But I'm very, very happy to see the Boomer Shooter, aka the Doom Clone and Doom Clone adjacent games kind of come back because those are still the shooters I enjoy the most. I think that a lot of people wrongly dismissed Doom then and even now is just, you know, a shooting gallery with no thinking involved. I love the level design. I love the exploration. I love that there is a lot of strategy to it, actually. And that spirit is alive and well, not only in Doom itself, because it's still very relevant, you know, 30 years on.

But in the types of games we are seeing from boomer shooters, it's pretty cool. Yes, I think it's a wonderful time to put yourself in the shoes of a Marine or a creepy cultist or a piece of checks. It's a Czech quest. I don't know actually who you play as a Czech's quest, but still, all these options. Or the sexiest man alive, didn't you? All these options and more are available to you, and I think it's wonderful.

So I think that's the SMS we take away from Doom is that Doom is for everyone, and Doom clones are for everyone, because you can put anything you want in there and do something creative with it, you know, more than ever. Well, before we finish up, I know, David, you have a lot, You probably have probably the biggest thing to share, and you're on the show less frequently than me and Stu.

So please talk about FPS, because you let us, you let me watch a copy of that this year, and I really enjoyed it. So please tell me about FBS. Yeah, so FPS First Person Shooter is a documentary about puzzle games. No, it's about first person shooters. That's the title would lead you to believe. And it is available now digitally at FPS doc.com. I believe we'll be doing another run of physical copies. either late this year, time for holiday sales or early next.

Nice. Also, a couple of the cool things. I'm writing a digital book about the making of Cigil 2 that will be included in John Romero's Cigil 2 retail box collector's item, so look out for that. That's awesome. Yeah, it's been pretty fun. I'm getting to interview him. I'm a narrative designer for Morrow a game, so I kind of have easy access, which has been fun.

But also, I am writing another book for Borrow. by books called But Can It Run Doom? Which is an exploration of a lot of the typical and atypical Doom ports we've seen over the years. So, you know, Super Nintendo, PlayStation, but also... The printer. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, you know, sheep and Minecraft, that sort of thing. So a lot of Doom stuff coming down the pipe.

Also, December 10th, when Doom turns 30, I'm going to be doing a live stream with John Romero and a very special guest. So if this episode is out by then, and you can hear this. A very special guest. A very special guest. Oh, crap. Is it a real Doom Guy? It is. It is, because John and Harold posts for Doom Guy is the cover.

So it is Doom Guy. Doom Guy will be there. Nice. Awesome. Fantastic. And anything else like, if people want to find you on the internet, where should they look for you? David O'Cradoc.com, which I don't update as regularly as I should, but I'll get on that soon. And at David O'Cradoc on Twitter slash X.

All right, Stu, your turn. All right. First of all, I'm going to plug real quick. The YouTuber Civi. who covers a lot of stuff like this C-I-W-V-I-E number 11 on YouTube lots of FPS coverage

in extremely good detail without resorting to the usual tropes and nastiness I find he's very likable I highly recommend him much better than me on YouTube I tell you that much but yeah you can find me

at Stupacarber on Twitter slash X and Stuart Gip on Blue Sky and I've just got a book Camel, all games are good. It's now I'm paperback, and it's on Amazon.com, except it's not at the moment because they don't have any copies, and I think they've actually sold out of them,

which is really, really exciting, although they don't know what their allocation was. So either way, I'm rubbing my hands together. But, yeah, it's a good book. You'll like it. I talk about Doom and various other Doom clones in there in extremely positive, glowing terms. And, yeah, it's good.

So buy it immediately, even if you can't really afford to. Just buy it, please. You know, Stu, we often get a lot of, joking responses from our listeners, you know, when you come on the podcast and you say a game, you talk about a game in less than glowing terms, like, oh, I thought you liked to see that all games are good, when's,

you know, when is all games are bad coming out? I cannot tell you how bored of that I am, but yeah, go on, sorry. Given our discussion today, I wonder if there isn't a way to write a book called All Games or Doom. It's feasible. It's feasible. It is. I mean, the joke I always make is

when they say, oh, I thought you said all games are good. I always say, yeah, that was a typo. It was meant to be called All Games. games of shit. But, yeah, I knew what I was getting into with that one. I knew that I could never criticize anything again, you know. But, you know, the thing is, it's an incredibly good book, and you should definitely buy it.

That's my theory. Thank you. And as for me, well, my name is Diamond Fight. As I mentioned, you can find me around the internet as Fight Club, F-E-I-T-C-L-U-B. That's my last name and a weapon that you really won't find in Doom, or most Doom clones, for that matter. And this has been an episode of Retronauts. We thank you very much for listening.

You can enjoy our program for free. You can do that, and we welcome you. But if you go to patreon.com slash Retionauts, you can, for three dollars a month, get early access to all episodes and a higher quality bit rate. And for $5 a month, which is just $2 more, the numbers I just said, guess what?

You get exclusive episodes every month, two exclusive episodes. You also get columns from me, which I read to you as a mini podcast, you get Discord access, and you get our monthly community podcast. It's just a lot of stuff for just $5 a month. Dan, are you telling me we got all those things for just $5? It's true. What the heck?

That's crazy. It is a lot. I mean, what was the original cost for Doom in 1993 if you wanted to pay for it? Was it $10? Oh, I think it was closer to like $35 to $40, maybe $50, like the full game. Yeah, I think, yeah. And that's in 1993. Think about what you get for $5 for retronauts in 2023.

That's so much more than doing. It's a bargain. It's a bargain. Truly. But in any case, we appreciate your listeners. Thank you very much. By all means, if you're listening to this, send us, you know, add us on social media or go out or Discord and tell us, tell us what your favorite doom clones. Tell us why there are specific rules that makes a doom clone not a doom clone.

Do you think Quake is not a doom clone? us why. I want to know. I want you to tell me. Don't encourage them to argue about 100 parameters. Now they'll be dancing for hours. We want the engagement, Stu. We want it. We crave it. All right. Well, we're out of time for

today. So as we leave, let's all give our best grunts. So What is that? That's the death sound. Oh, okay. I'll do some make you bit of noises then. Laugh. Good night.

Thank you.