Retronauts - 587: Sonic 3 + Knuckles Pt. 3

Episode Date: January 22, 2024

The gleesome threesome of Stuart Gipp, Dave Bulmer, and Shoogles return for even more gushing over the best game ever made. Yes, it is. It IS. Do not argue with me, I’m just a podcast description. I can say anything I want. Edits by Greg Leahy; art by Amanda Neipris. Retronauts is made possible by listener support through Patreon! Support the show to enjoy ad-free early access, better audio quality, and great exclusive content. Learn more at http://www.patreon.com/retronauts

This episode of Retronauts is brought to you by Notion A.I. This week in Retronauts, yet another Sonic podcast. I'm starting to think there's not Mushroom for anymore. Because of mushroom hill That's what the reference is Is it Is Stu

You're a pretty fun guy Come on Come on you Your idea Any more mushroom jokes I think that's actually both of them, isn't it? That's both of them Yeah, there's no more at all

Okay, hello, welcome to the third part of the alternatively insightful and irritating Sonic 3 and Knuckles coverage over on retronauts. And by over on retronauts, I mean here on retronauts, right now what you are listening to. Unless you're hearing this somehow, overhearing this from a distance and don't know anything about retronauts, and you're thinking, what is that noise? What are those voices? I just, if you're listening to this in a cafe, because somebody's got their laptop speakers on full blast. Yeah.

We are not associated with them. No. It's probably Dave. It probably is. I probably just failed to put my headphones in properly. Yeah, that's probably how you edit the podcast to everyone's complete in line. Correct. Yeah.

And by the podcast, I of course refer to some to come at the podcast. To a different podcast and not this one. A different podcast, yeah. I do not edit this podcast. Anyway, even though everyone knows already, let's do very, very quick snap introductions. Hailing from the land of eggs and bonnets that's you

shamey because of scotch that's the I was doing there Oh right okay Bonnets Scotch eggs and Scotch bonnets yeah Are scotch bonnets from Scotland? Well it sounds like they might be I don't know

Hello I'm shamed Is hopscotch from Scotland? Yes It's I from Scotland Hang on wait Say something and we'll try Determinant

Residivist No No, absolutely not Right, okay Not a drop of blood in him Scottish I'll have an existential crisis About that later

I'm sure I do very long YouTube videos And I That's kind of it just now Isn't it? Yeah, I do very long YouTube videos Of which the next one

Is either imminent or has just happened when this comes out at long last. It's imminent. My God, that's really imminent. That is. This might not come out for ages, so it might have been out for ages and being your least successful video and led to a period of ignominy.

To be honest with you, if I get it out and it gets 30 views, I will consider it a success because it's done. You know what, Shay, if I get it out and it gets 30 views, I consider it a success too. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, anyway, also hailing from the land of Oasis, I guess. Well, that hasn't got England in it. Mustard, English mustard. Oh, yeah, I mean, yeah, colonizing.

Yeah, yeah. Being the worst country ever to basically every country in the other than them in the past. Yes, there you go. brutalizing the Irish. Mustard and empire, and we emphasize that empire is said there with a negative country. And I'd like to say on the behalf of the country of England, a very heartfelt

and sincere, sorry to Ireland for everything. I'm very sorry that that happened. It was rotten and we should never have done it. Wasn't on. That completely out of order. Well, you're absolutely right.

It wasn't on at all. It was beyond the pale. And we think back of it, think back on it and what can you do? I know. What can you do? I know. I'm like, we're not talking about our atrocities today. We're talking about the opposite of an atrocity.

We're talking about Sonic 3 and Knuckles. Yes, I'm Dave. My name's Dave. Hi. Oh, you forgot to introduce. Actually, Stuart. Actually, Stuart is pronounced atro city. Oh, there he is.

Oh, God, Almighty Christ in heaven. Please deliver me. And, yeah, we've done this for what, two so far? Yeah, we've done this for two. We've done this for two. We've done two ones of it. We've been at this for two. We've done this for two, and we managed, because we're very, very thorough to make it all the way to launch base zone, which is where we're going to be starting today.

However, I would like to ask if either of you prior to beginning have had any Sonic 3Nuckles revelations of any sort or Sonic 3Nuckles based activities that you've taken place in or anything that has changed your approach to Sonic 3Nuckles or any corrections you'd like to add to the previous episode which we recorded so long ago now and that you haven't heard back that you can't possibly remember what you said. I did listen to that when it came out and it was so long ago that I, to be honest, I'm do a re-listen. the second part isn't even out yet can you believe no to be fair we didn't really pull our fingers out and make this third part so maybe they were just waiting to see if we did well you know it's you know to be fair it's not like there's been anything else

happening in our lives has there no so just complete lack of events you know nothing whatsoever demanding our time or attention it's now we've finally been able to get round to Stoo's being all coy about it, but of course he's referring to the coronation of our new king, which we all watched.

That was a stupid joke. Forget that. King, ring, Sonic collects, right? He's the king of the ring. No, that's actually, who is the king of the ring? I don't think they do that anymore. What? Who was the last king of the ring? It mightn't be Booker T. Someone please get in touch and let us know that may be possible. Henry? Thank you. about Sonic, so it's time to talk about Sonic. This is the kind of thing that people get

crossed with me. I know, they do. They get cross with all of us, and I'm, I'm, well, I was about to say, I'm sorry, but that's, frankly, the opposite of the case. Yeah, I'm not sorry at all. You get, this is what's happening, friends. This is, this is me. This is me, as was so memorably sang, by Pinky and Perky. By Pinky and Three.

So, yes, we've made it all the way to the launch base zone, the final zone of Sonic 3. Great. And, you know, When you play it in Sonic 3 mode, the de facto final zone of the game. That's it. This is your typical, sort of, well, not typical, as we'll get to, but it's your sort of metropolis style. And I don't mean metropolis, not metropolis zone.

I mean an actual metropolis, you know, enormous construction made out of metal or covered in things that can kill you and spikes and weirdness. And the thing is, it's very atypical for when you take into account the final, the last zones of previous games. Now, knowing what we know now, as in know now, what I mean is new, many, many years ago, but, yeah,

didn't know at the time of Sonic 3 coming out, that there, this isn't the final zone of the game, at all. I'm about to say it's not even close, and it's not. So, what do you think of this, of this one as in its position that's in? Sorry, it's just striking me on you that has taken us three episodes to get halfway through the game.

We're being for that. we're doing a very good job you know I'd say you know like I don't know if you know this but I have a particular predilection of fun this for long rambly podcasts or

YouTube videos yeah yeah you do that you have to say that yours I have to say and I mean this in a good way your YouTube videos they're interminable I like the launch base zone and it makes me all nostalgic and I remember that when I played it on just Sonic 3 before I had Sonic and Knuckles, I did actually find it really hard. I remember finding it

really hard in a way that I can't get back in touch with when I play it now. It's a Sonic level and I just play it. I mean it is quite hard for compared to the last zones I would say. I think it's easily a step up in challenge. You're never more than like, probably like a screen away from something that can hurt you. And there are more gimmicks that require you to maybe not go zipping off in any direction that you want all the time

I think the first zone is quite lacking in bottomless pit death in fact I think both of them mostly are it's not really a bottomless pitty kind of zone however however Shay what are you think of this zone what are your overriding thoughts about the launch base zone I think it's dead good

I think it's there is a lot I don't I don't want I don't want I'm sorry cut out this

no leave it in there is the thing about the launch base zone for me is how energetic it is

there comes a point in a lot of the previous Sonic games like Sonic 2 Sonic 1 in case you couldn't count backwards there comes like a cut off point where I'm like okay do I want to carry on with this or do I just want to shut it off you know because it's like you get into the final levels which are less breezy yeah than the first view but um in Sonic 3 it is like the whole level has become more difficult as you say but it is not turgid it is not like very pretty pretty pretty

precise jumps onto small platforms. It is not a lot of cheap hits like it is in Metropolis zone. And what it means is that by the time I get to launch base is like the last zone of the game. I'm not thinking all right Christ, guess I'd better

slog through this to get to the end. I'm thinking hell yes. Launch base zone. It's definitely more intricate but they've designed it in such a way that like even while you're having to make

more precise and calculated moves there's still a lot of there's still a rhythm to it you know there's still a sense of forward momentum you know a sense of kind of like building to something yeah and what are you building to we ought to say for anyone who is just listening to this but doesn't know about the game what is it

I'll answer my own question the launch base zone it's a gigantic construction site and all the time in the background the actual background art is the death egg. You guys know about the death egg. It's it sort of half embedded in towers and being constructed and like kind of half underground or in the sea or whatever. Scaffolding.

A scaffolding, that's the word. Return of the Jedi. It's the Death Star. It's the Death Star, except with two holes and a moustache. And that's better than Death Star. Yeah, by one eye. Yeah, because in story terms here, Robotnik is desperately attempting to fix up the game. egg after you put an owl in it the first time.

Yeah. You smashed it right up. So all of the, sort of the level that you're running around and the obstacles that you're facing are actually kind of, in keeping with that, there's lots of, like, girders and construction equipment and everything is sort of a piece with that idea. Large spinning drill bits. Yeah, stuff like that. Yeah.

And for the first time in the, no, wait, no, not the first time again, but I don't think we mentioned them yet. And if we did, I apologize. I want to say this up front, actually. TVs that are supposed to be nice and helpful, except this time, they're not. Yes. They've got Robotnik's face on them. Good.

I was going to ask. I was going to ask if this is the first and only appearance of these tellies in Sonic 3, or if I just missed them. No, I think they're in Ice Cap. Yes, yes. Yeah. Tele monitors with a Robotnikon instead of a Rings or a Shield or whatever, and when you get one of those, which you do because they're tellies,

so you go, oh, I'll just pop them, pop, pop, pop, or sometimes... Or sometimes you're in the middle of... Yeah, sometimes you're in the middle of just getting other tellies and you hit that one by mistake. Yeah, that's right, Americans, tellies. I was going to say... And what happens is...

For the benefit of our American listeners, a telly is a television. Yeah, and what happens is you get hurt and all your rings go dingling everywhere. Unless you have a shield. Well, yes, all right. Might be worth mentioning, but the TV monitors in this game

have actually been upgraded to be actual TV monitors, right? In the first and second game, they are more like computer monitors with the flat base and everything. But in this game, they're more like standing more contemporary CRT televisions. I guess.

They've redesigned them to look more like the kind of television that you would have except metal. They've certainly redesigned them. I didn't realize that was what they'd done. Well, that's the way I see them. Maybe they look more like Mac monitors. Well, I wonder, actually, yeah. Do you know what I love because the Sonic developers are all a big bunch of Mac twats, that's why.

I'm gone. That's absolutely true. That's why Eugene Nack is in jail right now. Yeah, yeah. But the thing that I love about the classic Sonic games is, like, the items and the power-ups are so often, like that 90s iconography. Like big chunky CRT televisions,

like, you know, like the checkpoints are lamp posts. Yeah. And that, like, you know, it's kind of very urban. It's very streetwise. It's kind of like, it's very hip and cool in 90s, you know. Don't forget about the hidden collectible giant Andy Peters. That's right, Americans.

Andy Peters. He was on the telly. No, no, no, no. Dave, Dave, Dave. No apologies, no explanation. Okay. Not anymore. Not anymore.

They're hours now. They're going to just get it and they're going to Google it or they're going to lump it. Hello, Retronauts listeners, it's Jeremy Parrish. You know, considering that I'm not actually in this episode, my name certainly gets dropped a whole lot. That's weird, right? Well, that's just what happens when Retronauts becomes a sprawling network of people doing their own things. That can also make management tough. Scheduling and planning among half a dozen days.

different people is not something you can just juggle in your head, or at least I can't. Thankfully, there's Notion, a practical tool for planning, organizing, and creating. It helps you collaborate with other people and streamline tasks. And now Notion features Notion AI. I've been using Notion to help organize Retronauts projects for simplifying tasks and saving me time that I would normally spend sweating over a spreadsheet. Notion combines notes, documents, and projects into one space. It's simple and beautifully designed.

And now the fully integrated Notion AI helps you work faster, write better, and think bigger, doing tasks that normally take hours in just seconds. Notion AI isn't a replacement for creativity or personalities, but it can quickly handle tedious tasks like organizing notes, filling out a schedule, or even offering tips and answers in response to questions without having to use a search engine. Notion AI can't explain why Stewart keeps talking about me this episode, but I guess that just means it's no replacement for face-to-face human interaction. Notion AI streamlines the boring parts of the creative process so that you can focus on the fun ones. And you can try Notion for free when you go to Notion.com slash retro. That's all lowercase letters, notion.com slash retro. To try the powerful, easy to use Notion AI today. And when you use our link, you're supporting our show.

Notion.com slash retro. But yeah. So yes. Sorry, sorry. Sorry. Just I really like that. Just I don't know

He is absolutely a product of his time And it's Even the The interstitial state screens that look a bit Like some kind of pop video Almost like

Top of the Pops looking kind of Yeah, it's very energetic Just all the iconography and all the symbols and the graphics kind of like appearing on the screen in a very energized

way rather than just kind of like fading in from black. And not the obvious, not the obvious choices as well. Like, yeah, we've got sort of like Mac monitors. We've been talking about that sort of thing. But not stuff that other games went with like, you know, CDs and baseball caps. And...

You're describing Zool. I'm describing Zool. And, I don't know, Flimbo's Quest, I suppose, for the cap. Yeah, Flimbo's Quest, of course. But, yeah, but you know what I mean? Like, that is... The reason Zool picked things like CDs and headphones and microphones is because that is the obvious iconography of cool music stuff, whereas Sonic went with the

slightly less obvious stuff, and therefore made it his own. Okay, I'm sorry, like, I have to pick the foot up on this. You're no honestly telling me there's a game called Flimbo's Quest. Yeah. Oh, you've got to listen. You've got to hear the title music. It's dead good. This is me letting you hear it now.

I think I know what the fade in music. Oh, editor, put in the bit where the base. face drops before that tune comes in. Oh, I do it. It's so good. C64 version of. I'll send it to you, Shea, after this, they're good. I've never played Flimbo's Christ. I love it. I don't even know what it is. I just know the music.

That makes it even funnier. Oh, God. But it's all true. I mean, it's a shame there was never a game where you collected pogs. That's a real oversight, in my opinion. I guess if they collected pogs, how was I going to be collecting the pogs, you know? Jay, did you know that there's a Z-X-Spectrum game

called Fat Worm Blows a Sparky? He didn't. You didn't, did it? Well, there is. Okay, when I woke up this point of that is not a sentence I expected to hear. Yeah. See, the best, I knew that existed. Yes.

It's a part of being a special club. Yes. Which is called having a spectrum. Yes. It's a beautiful thing. So, Sonic, though. Yeah, it's launched base zone. Yeah.

No, it's relevant, because it is all relevant to the iconography. The launch base zone, much to my dismay, has a water bit. Ah, yes. It has a water aspect. And in fact, in Act 2, the entire level basically becomes the piping system for something. You know, it's all pipes you're running around on instead of roads. I believe in Act 1 it's not really clear that that's the case. Yeah, I don't think so.

In Act 1, it's very much like dry as a bone. Does Act 1 have those bits where you kind of pop a thing and water falls down, or is that just Act 2? No, I think that's just Act 2. So the only real water in Act 1 is that you can see in the distance that the Death Egg is half submerged in what looks like the sea or a big thick river or something. And I guess that's what you're in Act 2. Makes sense because you're approaching the dead egg. Because you're getting closer to it. Yeah, it's absolutely right.

That's clever, isn't it? It's very good. And it's one of those things that, yeah, it's just insanely impressive. It's insanely impressive. The way that the act, the act differ here is very, I would say subtle, in a sense. I mean, even though you are going underwater, it still feels like part of the parcel, you know, it all feels very right. And what I want to say, like, and I love launch base, but I want to criticize it a little bit, because compared to the other zones in this game, there's quite a lot of things. that you might run into and die.

Yes. There are those odd bits where you'll have a set of spikes but there's a crusher above the spikes and it's like a spike on a block that's going up and down like a guillotine. Yeah, and it's only little. It is like a guillotine.

It's not like a big crusher. And there are sequences where you can be speeding from off screen, launch onto the screen, get hit by it and die in a way that I would personally say is not fair.

Also there's those bits where you're going around the big turning around barrels that actually make you kind of tumble off and you have to stay on top and you can end up just like there's a box room that you go through at the end of that with just a laser that

goes zip and just yes that wish if you're going at top of speed that can absolutely get you there now the tubes that sorry I should take on literally just I was going to say the tubes like the big rotating tubes and you kind of have to kind of stay on

top of them which is a little fiddly I mean you can just stand on them and they'll rotate around with you on them. Like, you don't fall off. Oh, you don't fall up? Oh, you don't fall up? Oh, do you know what? I've always sort of assumed that you would. No, no. If you just stand still, you won't fall off at all. They're good like that. Right. It's, like,

it raises an interest, oh, and the little fire noses. Yes. Little fire nozzles that kind of, like, shoot fire at you. It's kind of designed to kind of get you in that position, and you have to react very quickly which I feel is difficult to do with Sonic's

kind of by design pretty floaty momentum based because when he's moving slowly he feels kind of floaty he takes a while to get up to speed he's not very nimble he's quick but he's not nimble so honestly that

he never jumps over a candlestick that's the trouble with Sonic jeez I was waiting to see if anyone would do that yeah we both I was like, oh no, they've skipped it. Neither of them are going to go for it. I'm actually quite proud of these lads, so I'm quite proud of them. And then, no, you both simultaneously disappointed me.

But, um, like, it presents an interesting question to me about Sonic, because it is like, um, these things aren't really a problem for me now. They are avoidable, but on your first go-through, you're going to have to have remarkable reactions. and a very, very firm grasp of Sonic's physics. You know, I think it's fair to say it's unreasonable

to expect a first-time player to get through this place unscathed. Well, I mean, that was what I was about to say to you. I think it is unreal. Like, what's wrong with dying on the last level of a game the first time you play it? Yeah, I mean, there is nothing wrong with that, but there is something wrong with having such a marked difference, I think, between ice cap and launch base.

in terms of difficulty. This is what the question is. And, like, to be clear, I'm with you. I love launch base. I have no problem. I love launch space. It's one of my favorite zones. One of my favorite zones.

I just, I can't not mention this if I'm trying to be thorough. Like, I love, um, honestly, I quite like games that get more challenging towards the end. Like, I don't know. Like, um. I like difficulty spikes. I, I, like, I don't know. I said it. I like Sonic 3.

I like this game. Like, you're not getting like an unbiased reflection of the game by listening to this podcast if it wasn't already clear. But the question for me is how do you then design a Sonic level that feels as meticulously well designed as, say, a Mario level? And I don't think you can. You can't. And it doesn't matter because of the ring system. Well, and also, let's not forget that Sonic 3 on its own had a safe. system. So it's not as if dying on the launch base zone was unfair because then you had to

play the whole game again. You just fire up launch base zone, don't you? No, it's true. I just don't want to go through this and not mention the problems where I think they are. And this is a zone that spends about 70% of its time flinging you downhill or making you go up lifts. Yes. And there are lots of types of lifts. Like there's a spinning lift that goes round and round and goes Won, whoa, whew, oh, ew, in that. Love those guys. Yeah, and there's a lift that spins and goes up and then disappears into the scenery, and really quickly

and then reappears off. Now, you've described them both as spinning, listeners, he's talking about the first one, you sit in a cup on an arm, and it spins around a central shaft. So you go on a great big circular screw kind of ride up or down, and then the other one is a bait bean tin that you stand in, and it spins around

and then pops off down a pipe with you in it. Yes, it's very good. It's very good. I've often said you can judge the quality of the game by how diverse is lift How do you feel about knuckles chaotic then? Rubbish lifts, awful. It's just a slow-paced rubbish. I mean

I was trying to remember where I'd said that before and now I remember, thank you for that, actually. Thank you're prompting me there. Guys, what's the best lift you've ever been in? The other day I was in the other week I was in the shopping centre and we're in a lift and I decided to do the thing where you press

all the buttons just to annoy the people. We were going down the stairs anyway And I was just pushing the buttons And I was like, He what a little rascal I am And then we got out to the car park And it turns out that the ticket machine Is no longer a ticket machine

You have to like put in your car's registration number I didn't, I couldn't remember my car's registration number So they all caught up with me Oh God It was very embarrassing Aren't you like I thought you were quite a nice person until I heard that.

Yeah. Why would she do that? Yeah. And then did you like do a big smelly guff and then the door's closed? And then said summer button on that. Christ, wait. This podcast got away from us.

I knew it would happen to mention. I don't know. Can I tell you something? Here's something interesting about the Laundreau. Yeah. So the music's quite cool, isn't it? What I like about the music is when it starts, it goes, and you're like, oh, hello, hello, this is a bit scary.

And it comes in with the... And then you've got some voice samples come in going, Go-Tales Go. That's not what they're saying. what it sounds like. You've got the wistly... It's a really cool sound. It's like, it's all...

It's this heavy bouncing bass line and it's just this plunging bass. And then you've got this... You've got these odd sort of like hard drum sounds that are a bit more like someone banging a spoon on some metal or something. And the whistle. I tell what it is.

It's like a really... It's like a really... It's very rhythm-focused, and this is what I love about it, because you get there and you expect, well, you expect something more like the beta track, the, the, um, which is a really, it's a really great tune for it. It's a really great tune for it. It's a really great tune that suits the level perfectly. It's a launch base zone. It's kind of got that whole like a Superman Flash Gordon vibe, the idea of these like the shuttles and rocket ships taking off. into space and stuff. It lionises the launch a bit much for my liking, though, that intro, you know? It takes, you know, like, it makes sense for it.

I do agree, yeah, it's a little triumphant for the atmosphere. This is kind of like a countdown to disaster. The other way to go would have been more of a countdown to disaster, like kind of like industrial and heavy and ominous and menacing and overpowering, but overpowering, but keep in mind

this is not supposed to be the end of the game. This is supposed to be the halfway point. And so, like, kind of where a twist is supposed to kick in, you know, like, you know, a paradigm shift to kind of keep you going into the latter half of the game. And so what you've got is the attitude is a lot more forward-facing and a lot more kind of like, like, enthusiastic and driven is the game isn't going, oh, big disaster is incoming. It's like, you've got this. You can stop this from happening.

and it's going, go, go, go. Like, literally, the song is telling you, go, go, go, go. It's brilliant. It's, it's, it's, you do, but you also get that sense of almost, I mean, it's not finality, but it's the, it's the consequences, because the song just stops, it goes, duh, yeah, boom, bang! And then it comes back in again, and it's almost like a jump scare, it's like a scarecore, almost, isn't it? It's like, it's very, well, it's like a record. It's like a, it's like a, it's like a, it's. It's like a pop song, and didn't it make sense when you found out that this was one of the tracks that they had to remove?

This was obviously one of those tracks. Well, yeah, of course. This is what I came to say about this, actually. I was thinking about this earlier today. Are you off after this first? Yeah, yeah, I'll be off in just a minute. No, I was thinking about this earlier today, because, like, back when we were, we all know now about the Michael Jackson, Brad Bucks a connection. We've talked about it with hard times with the ice cap zone and things like that.

But before we knew that, we knew it. People figured it out. And they mostly figured it out based on the carnival night. And the glass smashing, which sounds like jam. That's just unbelievably obvious in every respect. Yeah, but if you, the thing is, music did kind of sound like that in the, in sort of 1990, sort of 1980, sort of 1989 to 1993 sort of time. The top of the pop theme song definitely did. But, um, anyway, the, the truce song.

Fracks that got removed because they had to do with... I mean, personally, I doubt Michael Jackson had much of a hand in it. I think it's probably more his production team. It would have been Brad Buxer, but they would have signed on as, quote-unquote, Michael Jackson, wouldn't they? They were the team, but they were... Which hand did he have? Glove or no glove? I don't know.

I don't know. A glove because... God damn good eye. Glove because that's like, you know, like an old cartoon pianist would have one of those gloves on. And so, you would... An old car. tune, what? Pia nista.

The launch-based zone music. Nice, yeah. Oh, yeah, class. The launch-based zone music goes in this little wistly tune. And I realized today that I should, when I first heard that in 1990, whatever the hell it was,

have gone, oh yeah, that sounds like a pop song, and specifically I'm thinking of a particular one. Because I already knew a tune like that. that. And probably a lot of people playing Sonic 3 did if they were the kind of nerd I was because there is a song on the soundtrack to the Turtles movie that has it. It's called

Let the Walls Come Down and it's by somebody called Johnny Kemp. And it opens basically like Bunker Borka! Borgia Bopo! Like that. And so while I was thinking about that today I went

well what if there's a what if there's a connection there like what if whoever wrote that was the sort of person who might have been involved in this so i got out my copy of the turtles album i've got it here actually i didn't i didn't i didn't go to the cd lads i thought i'd get the vinyl out because it's because it sounds warmer uh no it's because my eyes are middle-aged and i wanted bigger letters um no no sorry hang on are you telling me that i own the ninja turtle's vinyl Yes. Like, for a second then I was like, oh, but like, for a second I was like, oh, for God's sake, Dave.

And then I thought, no, no, he's kidding, shimmy. No, of course I have the soundtrack on vinyl. And CD, what are you talking about? Of course I have. It's a tremendous sense. Like, how could I not? What are you on about? Obviously, I have.

I'm this age. This day and age, who could ask you. Anyway, so let the walls come down by Johnny Kemp. That's all it says on the internet. It's all it says on the back of the album. But on the sleeve, it says that it's produced. It doesn't say who wrote it. So I'm guessing they wrote it together.

Produced by and recorded and mixed and arranged by somebody called Rhett Lawrence, who did keyboards and drum programming. And I looked up, Rhett Lawrence, and lads, he was on the dangerous album. He was part of Michael Jackson's team at this exact time. Oh, my God. I might have a scoop here, guys. Have you just done a scoop? I might have just done a scoop

I don't know It's all based on speculation Dave Moore Of you of you don't Because That's how we figured out That's how we figured out that Michael Jackson was involved Or Brad Bucer

Was that it had bits from existing tunes Now Shame me Shame me Right Yeah Dave's only just done Gone and done a scoop

Done a big scoop He's not a massive scoop in the middle of the podcast I've scooped it up and then I've clicked the little thing on the handle that makes the little thing unscoop it into the bowl. Brilliant. I think I've done one. You've done it.

This is incredible. What a scoop. This is news. Wow. Right. We can also, we can probably play that song as well. Yeah.

Which is very exciting, isn't it? Yeah. Gosh, I'm not sure we're going to top. There you go. I mean, I've, like, you know, I'll just, I'll blow the internet wide open. What you've done is, yeah, break the internet. Yeah. I mean, what you've done, Dave, is you've done.

You've done basic research, haven't me? Yeah, really basic. Like, I just got a record out and looked at what it said on it. No, you didn't get a record out. You got your vinyl copy of the Teenage Music Ninja Turtles sound show out. Listens to it multiple types, which you do every day. And then done some looking on the internet, haven't you? Very fucking impressive, you asked me.

Well done. Yep. Wow. Well, I mean, if that turns out that had been that mean nothing, which... Well, he was on Michael Jackson's Dangerous Production Team, so there is, in fact, a strong chance that he was part of the team that went over there with Brad Boxer. There's even, there's even a strong chance that everyone...

Dangerous is one of the prime sources for the samples. Yeah, yeah, because it's just their bank of samples, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, like, Jam, Jam is from... There's a sample in Jam that's like a record scrap sample that's also in Sonic CD. It's a glass smash sound as well. Is it? Is that in there as well?

I believe so. The work that's like a death track. That's got the jam record scratch in it. So they're working from, you know, they've got, they're passing around that sample bank, certainly. Damn's such a great song, guys.

It's such a great song. It's such a great song. I used to love Michael Jackson. Yeah. It's a shame in us. I know, it's questionable things, like work on Sonic games. Yeah.

And, you know, you have to distance yourself at some point, don't you? But music as a song. Like, I'd like to ask a query about the background of launch base zone. Got him. Now, knowing what we know now about this game, in the background, past the water, you can see some green. You can't.

Beyond the green, you can see some goddamn pyramids. Pyramids? They look like Egyptian things to me. They look a bit like pyramid-y bits and box. Okay, let me have a little look at the... I've got a video up of the level playing in the background while we talk about this. This is an act two thing, right? I'm going to post, look, I'm going to, I've put it in the recording.

Oh, you've got an image of this. Yeah, that you can see some green and then beyond that, you can see some orangey, smashing orangey. I always read those as like, like American desert-style rocky mountain type things. Yeah, right, but what if it's not? What if that green bit is the mushroom hill zone? and beyond the green bear is the sand sand opolis zone

oh it could be what if it is what then hmm and I tell you what's you know what's interesting it's still I've also got a scoop still me isn't it

no actually now that I'm looking at it actually yeah I can see what you mean there are there's a steps effect if you look at it the way I'm now looking at it there's 3D to those shapes that I haven't noticed before well it's in it isn't it

interesting the sort of odd abstract way that those whatever they are are depicted out of like different squares of stripes whatever they are it's done in a strange art style it kind of looks like art it does kind of look like art just like everything in the time amazing I mean I know

it is art but you know what I mean no I'm just being I'm just being very like polite about the game because it looks like yeah there are many things about launch space that I feel like we haven't told about that I would also like... Well, then do.

That's what I wish. One of them being, in the second act, because I want to talk about the second act a little bit, we have seen the effect before, I know, but it impresses me more here in a sense, because it's almost perpetually visible. The way that the surface of the water is presented as a sort of quasi-3-D effect is really cool.

Yeah. It's really, really cool. And it's also kind of a... You could, in a way, regard it as a bit of a throwback to Sonic 1 the way that the final act air quotes final act, you know, is past the underwater because

the scrap brain zone was past the underwater in a sense. You know, you would drop into that area in the final, I think the third act was essentially a labyrinth zone kind of thing. Yeah, that's right. You went through a really rough, difficult underwater. I mean, it actually was labyrinth zone, but

recoloured or something, wasn't it? It was, but it was still called scrap rain. And in this zone, not unlike labyrinth zone in fact it's quite easy to run out of time because if you're not already very good at this

there is a particular bit in this zone in Act 2 that I think is a bit of a stumper where you have to do a controlled momentum spin dash up a wall and land in an elevator that's in midair

and it's much easy easier said than done, much easier said than done. It's the kind of thing where we've played it so much that we don't even think about it. But I have memories of being new to this game and not being able to do that. And it's interesting

because it's the kind of obstacle that a Sonic game, perhaps oddly enough, hasn't really presented before, which is that you have to use momentum in a way that's very careful. Because it's kind of the antithesis of what the game normally has you do. When you get stuck in these games

previously, it's because you haven't figured out you can push blocks yet, or you haven't figured out some other thing, like some other mechanic. But here, the mechanics are clear. It's clear what you've got to do. It's just very hard to execute, and that's not that common for Sonic game. I don't know what bit you mean. Yeah, when you're underwater, there's a bit where you have

to spin dash up a wall. You come off the ceiling, and you have to land in one of those spinny lifts. What happens if you don't? And then you have to do it again. You miss. You land in the water again. You're still under water, and you have no way of getting out besides doing this.

Right, right. I don't remember that. I'll take your word for it. Yeah, it's late-ish in Act 2. I remember it very vividly. I think it might be skippable. It might be possible to skip it. Perhaps that's what I do. Maybe I go a different way. Maybe you do. That's the great thing about this game. I'm just coming back to what you said earlier about the parallax creating a pseudo 3D effect

on the surface of the water, and I'm only just seeing that with a fresh pair of eyes just now. That is remarkable. That is incredibly well done. And I love how when you move left and right, the parallax is exaggerated, so it really looks

like you're close to the surface of the lake. The thing is, it is like the backgrounds. I've said it before in these episodes, but the backgrounds and Sonic Games are the kind of thing that I think you're taking for granted in a way. I'm not saying that like, you should have noticed this before. Because it's made for you not to notice,

you know, but when you actually look at this stuff and you look at these backgrounds, they'll Listeners, what he's talking about is that the surface of, whenever you see the surface of the water, because the whole background in Act 2 is this surface of the water, not only does it travel in 3D left and right as you move, and it's done with many, many layers of parallax so that the sparkles on the surface all move. But then, as you go under it, it has that effect of like the perspective goes. You know, the distance goes down while the bit close to the camera stays kind of where it is.

and that draws, it becomes the surface over you instead of the surface under you. And it's brilliantly done. It creates such a sense of depth and size. It happens in Hydro City, but you're moving so fast usually that you don't notice. Yeah, and there's more stuff peppered everywhere in Hydro. I feel like this level gives you more chance to look at it because... And you spend a lot more time either way above water or in water, basically. It's very rare that you're kind of on the surface of water in that game.

Is that fair to us in that level? Is that fair to say? What it makes me question, right? It's like, you know, it's a love... Yeah, absolutely, like, just... It's the second existential crisis of the episode. It's, um, like, what did this place look like before Robotnik got here?

Because it's a lovely sunny day. It's a beautiful lake, and he has ruined it with his, with his scaffolding and his architecture and his industry. It makes me wonder if it, was a lake, or if he basically borrowed out on the street. Oh, well, hang on a minute.

Surely, is it not the sea? And what we're seeing in the background is the floating island. Oh, yeah. No, no, because the death egg crashed on the floating island. Well, yeah, but... So we're on the float. Yeah, but he could be... I'm wondering if it's a crater.

Could be. That could be the case, yeah, yeah. I mean, I know it's not the same exactly, but the beginning of... Sonic and Knuckles implies there would be quite a big crater made if this thing landed on you. Because I don't really care about the story in these games. So at the beginning of Sonic 3, you're on the Floating Island, right? Yeah.

Because Knuckles is there. You're on the floating island for the entire thing. For Sonic 3 on Knuckles the whole time? Yes. Yes, I thought that was the case. Okay, yeah. So what happens is the death egg takes off from the floating island and then crashes back into the floating island in different ways.

Yes. It's a bit silly. Well, it's marginally silly, but it's not like the thing gets a huge head of steam going, is it? But the thing about that is, like, the way that we've said that, it does sound very silly. But the way that it is executed makes perfect sense, because what happens is, is you go in, like, as it is taking off, as it is just finally getting the thrust it needs,

to lift off, you go in and stop it. So it's kind of got, had an aborted launch that's meant it's kind of like crashed back down to earth. And I guess it's the fact that it's you in there doing that as the playable character that makes that feel

right. It makes it feel like just, like yes, that is where it should have happened. I suspect that it is an artifact of the game being split. I bet that it is an artifact of the game being split. I bet were that not the case, you wouldn't have a launch until closer to. the end of the game, I think. Wow. What's weird about that? I may be misremembering, but I think if you play Sonic 3 on its own,

it's kind of heavily implied that the death egg is destroyed. Yeah, that's when you defeat the last boss, the death egg just blows up in the sky, whereas when you play it as Sonic 3 in Knuckles, it falls. Well, what happens? I can't remember the cutscene. Sonic looks into the background as the death egg's like falling. And it just goes all the way off the screen, does it? Yeah.

That's the same as in 3, isn't it? don't actually see it land in three, do you? Well, no, you see it explodes in three. Do you? Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, you see explosions coming off of it, but I thought you just saw it four past, like, in Slight Three and Knuckles.

I didn't think you saw it fully explode. Well, I thought you did, but I haven't played in by itself in a long time. Mandela Effect. If we had a cool sound effect, we could play for the Mandela Effect, that would be, you know, that would be fun. I'm not.

I'm reasonably certain that you don't, and I'm prepared to fight you over this in a car park. Burning bin. No, you do, you see the death egg explode. Really? Well, then I apologise, and I will give you, Dave, one free stab with your life in the car. Hooray! I thought you were going to say a sweet, but that's even better.

May I suggest going for something crucial so that I don't then come at you? Well, that was going to be my plan. You're still up for the fight, though. we're still going to fight over this point even though it's now been established what happened well I don't like being oh okay okay I'd rather die

I've already lost fights to every single other original guest and host so I sort of feel like you know Stu is wrong but also after getting stabbed you would have a very valid victim card to play that would overshadow you having been wrong

yeah video game trivia it's true yeah that's how I've been essentially approaching this and life. Generally. Yeah. But what else is there to say about, about launch space? I honestly felt like we've barely scratched the surface.

And we have actually said quite a lot. Frogs, frogs. Frogs. Frogs. Frogs and boss gauntlet. Frogs. Frogs with metal balls and they go punch, punch, punch. And the little snaily, little snaily guys.

Little snailies. There are snakes. On the snailies on the wall, that's exactly right. They're also the bits where you hit switches that change the layout of the platforms. And if you do them wrong, you block yourself off from getting power-ups, which is really... Yeah. I love the snailies. They are some of my favourite badniks.

I don't know what it is about them. It's just the idea that they are invincible while their shell is closed. Yeah. And then they are vulnerable while their shell is open. And that's also when they can attack it. I think that is very elegant. And... Do you think that that's where they got the idea for metal slugs?

Sorry, that's bullocks. Why don't they even boss? And it's really difficult to know that they're snails because they look like a man with bug eyes and his mouth open. I've got to be honest with you. They've always read to me as snails because of the shape. Yeah. There are some on the floor as well, aren't there?

Am I wrong about that? Or on the ceiling, maybe. I only know about the wall ones. There's some in my flat. Oh, God. Cute friend, flat friend. I'm very fond of those guys too, because you can bounce on them while they're not open.

It's quite fun. plus I also like the idea that like all the bad necks are made by Robbins right and I just the idea that he just kind of went like this will be worth it he makes little cute ones yeah

right that none of those work this however this this is what I call project mollusk is going to be the one he's such a silly he's such a silly bald idiot honestly

that's why we love him though he's such a character you know There is not an ounce of pragmatism about him. That's why I love robotic, man. He's just this big idiot who, when you jump on his stuff and break it, he looks at you, not at Sonic. He looks at you as if to go, what are you doing?

Stop it right now. This was expensive. And isn't that great? Yes. Isn't that just so good and silly and pantomimey? He's like a pantomime villain. It's brilliant. I love him. He is fantastic.

And that's why Long Jong Bordry is the ultimate. He knew what he was, you know. Well, like, he is just one absolute clown of a character. But the thing about it is, is even though he is remarkably silly, as he should be, he still manages to generate, like, again, I wouldn't say threat because that seemed like a very strong word. manage to generate like drama you know you want to stop this guy you know like well i mean this lovely beautiful lake and a lovely sunny day and he's like scribbled all yeah well he's just relentless well it's what we've talked with what we've talked about already is as you said not that i mean

that just i'll stop talking about it but like we've mentioned it the way that he torches england and the way that he smashes up marble garden you know that's something this game does very well as it does give you more sense just this little round guy who every individual thing he does isn't much, but you can't stop him. He'll just go and do more of them. And it'll get worse and worse until you get this, until you get this launch base that exists. And he's somehow built these gigantic

towering crane structures that are going to launch a death star into space. And he's done it by making little snails and just keeping going. And he still finds the time to come and deal with you personally periodically. Like he still finds a time

to like, right, okay, had enough of this. I'm going to go down there and sort him out. you have to admire that Yeah, yeah, yeah It's wonderful I mean that's what I like I mean Not doing the comparison bit

But no shade to Bowser But Robotnik pisses on Bowser As far as I'm concerned And also I once saw a piece of fan-hot In which Robotnik was In fact pissing on Bowser Did you? Or are you just imagining that for your own entertainment

No, I didn't really It wasn't just once I saved it and loved it many times Yeah. Yeah, but no. You're going to go and draw that now. To me, this is why Robotnik works so well in the Sonic movies, dare I see it. Because they got the perfect guy to play him.

The perfect guy. Someone who's a little bit wrong, you know, but also knows how to ham it up. I still think about that bit in the first Sonic movie. It haunts me. It haunts me. It's a fart. Yeah, with Sonic far as me, too. No, no.

When Robotnik comes in and says, I was spitting out formulas while you were spitting up formula and then who is it James Marston the other fella Donut Lord Yeah whatever his name is

that guy His name's Donut Lord His name's Donut Lord His name's own Yeah And then Jim Kerry goes Nice And it's like

I just want to see The wee blue hedgehog Like smash a robot What's this fucking Broidian nonsense Let's see what I've got in my age. I don't care. I like those movies. Shut up.

But yeah, no, Jim Carrey is a man who's never once... Don't actually shut up. You should. Jim Carrey is a man who has never once stopped. And that's what Romantic is. The man has never stopped. He's a monster and he must be stopped. But yeah, I mean...

Nah, I mean, you know, the Sonic movies, like, you know... I mean, not as good as... you know, the Mario movie, where Mario's in it, isn't he? Oh, my God. I don't want to be involved in this decision. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm just, it's just that it's, I mean, the fact of the matter is Mario is in the Mario movie, isn't he? It's in it? He's right. He's there. You can see him. He is. That is, you know, that is undisputably true, that Mario is in the Mario movie. Although I did think it was interesting that apparently it was in Chris Pratt's contract that he, like, wasn't to say the word Mario at any point in the film.

Yeah, it was a weird choice. It's like how they won't say zombie in certain zombie fiction, you know. Like, throughout the entirety of the Mario movie, no character at any point says the word Mario. That is fascinating decision. Fascinating decision. Yeah. I remember

there's footage of him saying as soon as I hear that word, I'm out. That's ultimately what happened at the, you know, the first showing. Yeah, at the premiere, so I accidentally said Mario and he stormed off. Yeah. It came up on the title card

That interview where somebody says So how does it feel to be playing Super Mario When he said, Super what? And he just decks him, didn't he? Rips off his mic, his little... Yeah, and his moustache, which he actually grew It's a real moustache. He rips that off. Yeah, he rips that off.

Turns around to the director and does the throat-cutting gesture. And then just storms off to be in a Marvel movie. He says, I don't have to take this. I'm Star-Lord. Yeah. You know, we have Star-Lord, and in the other movie, is we have Dornot Lord. Yeah.

Oh my God. You're a Boris. No, you're a Boris. Launch base zone. Launch base zone. No, what we're saying is that Mario is in the Mario movie undisputably, and no one can argue that he's not.

That's true. Apart from Chris Pratt, apparently. Actually, I don't know if it's true. I've not seen it. It's not true. We've led us all the very rather a merry dance there haven't shown. He's not in the film anyway.

Absolutely. Mario's not in the film at any time. Sorry. Is he not in it? Is he not in it? Mario, no, no. Oh, what? I could have sworn that is it? No. That was, you had the wrong glasses on.

You had one of those Dolby 3D glasses on and they'd do it differently. I did. I did the real D glasses on. The real D. You were a real D sometimes, I think. Oh, we're going to get in trouble for this. What I was going to say was like, the thing about launch base was at the end. There is, of course, that boss gauntlet. You do your kind of end-of-act boss, and then, you do your kind of end-of-act boss, and then you do

another boss, which is like a big long shaft that keeps going like up and down and like kind of like shooting lasers at you and then you defeat that and you fight Big Arms nay the squeeze tag machine

much better name than Big Arm which is a belt area boss. Oh God, it's so good the first two are really fun a knockabout but that last one is just an absolute shame. But, like, just again, just a real mock-about thing

where you have to jump fairly precisely at the right time. But it always feels very cathartic and very accurate. Once you're used to it, it is like completely consistent. Like, a brilliant, brilliant, like, final boss or pseudo-final boss, or whatever it is with this weird

one game, but two games. And then destroying that sets off a chain reaction that brings down the entire death egg it's incredibly satisfying it's I mean we've buried the lead here a bit because in the most transgressive moment

to this point and I mean this Sonic rides the egomatic yeah so yeah so you first there's a little boss you have to fight where it's robotic just like launching cannonballs at you at random and then you he runs off and yeah you get in a parked egomatic

you fly along towards like you know the underside of the death egg going past all its engines and everything and then there, there's Knuckles and he stood on like a tower of girders and crates and things and he punches the death egg and you kind of, not the Death Egg-Eggs, sorry, he punches the Egomatic and you kind of

bounce back off him and then just the momentum of that, he has his giggle, yeah, because, right, and let's, I may have said this on a previous episode, Knuckles does chuckle, don't, nobody go on, just because he says, he does, because a different rapper says, in saying he's Knuckles, but he isn't Nuckles, he's just a random rapper, says,

unlike Sonic I Don't Chockel, in a game that hasn't come out yet, he does chugging, it's the main thing Knuckles does. That was a stupid line. He mainly chuckles. So he chuckles, but the momentum of the punch, I guess, or something makes his tower of boxes start swaying, and he goes, whoa, whoa, and he falls in the Zay. It's the death egg talking off.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's, like, I don't know. I like that, again, like, I'm not, I'm really, not trying to say that this is the greatest work of fiction that video games. God, you're right. I'm watching it now. And it's exactly as the screen starts to shake that the things do wobble. You're absolutely right. That's the moment the Death Egg starts to launch. Oh, my God. I like the poetry of that.

You know, I like that it is not that Sonic beats Knuckles up and gets the better of them at the end there and goes, ha-ha, you know, I've, you know, in the end, I've proven that I was stronger than you, Knuckles. it was Knuckles' initial mistake in trusting Robotnik that eventually is his undoer. And Knuckles and Robotic's complete disregard for his. Yeah, because by this point,

Robotnik's gotten what he wanted out of Knuckles. He does not care about him at all. And it's, you know, completely undermine him. And again, that's not like, oh, man, this is actually the deepest game ever made or anything. But I think that is a really clean bit of story. what it is is it's clean and it's always clean and like this is just a platform game that didn't

need there to be any storytelling but they just decided we'll put a little bit in between each level just to give it a flavor and they went quite far with that further than they needed to go to the point where actually it tells a completely coherent story and then you know they really lean into that in the second half which we'll come to but yeah oh yes brilliant stuff really brilliant stuff. And then, and then you egomatic your way over to the sort of, I don't know, like a docking platform type thing under the death egg. You fight that first little...

It's again, just another little mini-boss. It's just robotniks there. You just bounce on him. What happens between that and the big arms egomatic coming out is that the... That's the squeeze tag. The sky turns black. And I remember at the time

I was kind of stuck on the death egg zone back when I was a kid. And I phone my friend who had the game. I think I borrowed it off him, actually. And I was like, how do you get past this bit? Or I'm stuck on the launch base zone. And I just remember, all I remember from that call is him saying like, and then you're at the final boss.

And Dave, you're going to love the music, the plays. And yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah, he's right, isn't he? It's one of the best pieces of music that's ever come out of a 16-bit machine. Yeah, it's great. peak sonic music in my opinion. Amazing. And the fact that

the sky, well, the sky goes dark, right? Then the squeeze tag machine rushes from below the screen or maybe above the screen, the top of the screen, isn't it? From the death egg. Comes down and then sort of reemerges in front of you. And

while this isn't the final boss of the game ultimately, when I played this, I'm like absolutely 100%. Of course that's the final boss. Look at it. It's big, In Sonic 3, this felt like the appropriate final boss, yes. And hitting this thing is not that easy to do.

No, you've got to learn. Compared to it. Yeah. I used to use the Insta shield every time and I think I still do out of pure habit. Well, now, that was something I was going to talk about today. I think I do as well. But that's because Sonic 3 and Knuckles made spin-dashing so much

more pleasant to do because of that Insta-Shield. Like most of the time, it isn't going to to make any difference at all. But now that you, it's kind of like how, like, it's a similar thing to like in paper Mario where, you know, you press the button just as your hammer goes down on the baddie and it just, yes, you get points for it, but more than anything else, it just feels better.

This game, as you're about to bop a badney, hit that button, get that extra little slash and you just feel good. They have improved the spin down. Not for one thing that it, uh, it lets you kill spiked enemies without the splash. Especially in the launch base zone, those spinning round. the Orbynoughty metal guys. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

And I love that. But I think I've, I think every time I've tried intentionally to hit an enemy with a spin attack in Sonic 3 and Knuckles, I've done the Insta shield out of pure habit. Yeah. Because it's a timing game. It doesn't necessarily matter whether you get anything from it. You get the satisfaction of like, there we go, I did that. I pressed that at the exact right moment. Because that's what Sonic's all about.

It's about getting him into your fingers and getting the feel of what to do with him to flick him into the air and chuck him over there and it's the same thing as throwing and catching a ball. That's what playing Sonic feels like. Yeah, it is. You don't have to go outside. Yeah.

Well, you have to go outside and throw a ball. You just get sheltered out. Well, I guess that's kind of the... And that's the element of this that I think is missing. from modern Sonic is he just feels nice to control because he feels intelligible. I like tactile, like real, because we all know how ball physics operate. We all know how, like you throw a ball or you roll a ball and you know how you would expect it to behave.

And Sonic kind of doesn't perfectly replicate that, obviously, but it plays on that. It plays on that knowledge and experience. And when things are more real, it makes them more tangible. and understandable. And to me, it makes, like, moving that character around a lot more satisfying. It takes a barrier away between your fingers and your brain, isn't it? Yeah, it feels so natural. Your brain's not having to do all this work to kind of, like, bridge the gap.

Whereas in modern Sonic games, when you tap a button and with zero regard for physics or momentum, he just shoots off at Sonic speed, really. at, like, literal, like, the speed of sound. Like, it doesn't quite feel as... I'll tell you. I mean, I've got to... Sorry, going on. Well, the best example of that that I've got

is in the latest game, Frontiers. The thing that frustrated me constantly, and, like, I liked that game much more than you did, Stu, but the thing that got me every time was that when you spin attack, or whatever it is, whatever attack you do to a bad guy in that game, In the games, the Sonic games that I love, you hit a badnik, you bounce off it, and there's momentum, and you can figure out where you're going to land.

In that game, you hit a bad guy, and you just pause in the air now, and you just stood just in the air in front of him, because it's waiting for you to input more controls to do more punches in the air. And that just kills it dead. I mean, I compare Sonic to so many of the games that don't get contextual controls right, because Sonic's, the only context for Sonic's control should be what. friggin gradient are you on right now what angle are you at that's the context for Sonic there's never any apart from like you know grabbing onto like

a platform or something or like grabbing onto a thing you don't really do much messing around outside of that single core engine that moves him around occasionally for example in Mushroom Hill you'll grab onto those things where you press down

you know to go up but even they are really not much more than just a silly bottom-mash thing. The point I want to make, I'm trying to make is here. Going from Sonic 3 and Knuckles, skipping everything in between and going to Sonic Adventure, which is a game that I love. I love Sonic Adventure.

It makes me really, really happy, okay? And compared to this game, it's a hunk of old crab. Okay? It's valueless in terms of gameplay compared to this game. Because in Sonic Adventure, you... Okay, there is a move that you get. called the light speed dash, the light dash, I think it's called,

where if you press a button in front of a row of rings, you will zoom through the rings and end up at the end of where the rings were. Like, there's a line of them. That's kind of a cool idea. I quite like it. No, wait, I'm thinking, I've totally fucked this up. I'm thinking of Sonic Adventure 2.

No, that's in Sonic Adventure 1. No, but it's the way you do it in Sonic Adventure 1 actually makes sense, because you have to do the charge. What I'm talking about is in later games. There is a button that makes you go zip, zaps up through the ring. it's a single button for us if you press that single button when you're not the rings or god forbid standing in front

of the rings but facing it slightly the wrong angle of the rings it makes you do a fast and what they've done there is they have gone we've what they've done there is they've given so many things he can do and what it reminds me of is playing uncharted three where the button to get into

cover and the button the bent to get out of cover and the button to pick up some ammo and the button to do a combat area all on the same button. So you get into situations where what you really want is to get into cover, but what you do is you pick up a gun with no bullets in it that's on the floor. Well, it's, it's like, Sonic has always had problems with this kind of context in 3D, because in order to account for his

high speed, what they have done is they have made the homing attack, like they gave him a homing attack, like the game will kind of automate the process of attacking an enemy for you. which I think makes a lot of sense. Yeah, if it worked 100% of the time, it would be great. But there's the two problems with it. Number one is it's very finicky because it's never clear which enemy you're locking onto

and even in the later games where it is, you have no way of changing that target. And number two is using it kills your momentum dead because Sonic will latch onto them, hit them, and then bounce straight up. So you can do it again. and it doesn't feel satisfying. It breaks the flow.

Because again, that's not how things work. And it's not even also, therefore it is bad and therefore it is worthless. Like, I'm not, like, I know that, like, people are going to be thinking, like, you're taking the physics of this cartoon hedgehog very seriously here, Shemmy. But... What are we here for? But the thing is, is it makes it feel more tactile and more satisfying, more immediate, more gratifying just better in pretty much

every way and and I like the latter games just have not even really tried to replicate that feeling it's not even necessarily

that the homing attack is wrong and that boost is wrong and these are the wrong ways to do it but just genuinely for me I find them less satisfied hand on heart like there are plenty of 3D Sonic games that I like you know I'm not a complete laudite with this

If you ask me which is better To do or 3D I'm not going to hesitate And saying 2D But there are plenty of 3D Sonic games that I have liked That I also think are quite poor In many ways And there are several that I think are great And Sonic Adventure as I mentioned

I think is one of them I love that game And that's got But that game's falling to pieces And I absolutely love it But when I come to something like You know This is on topic

this is Sonic. Sonic Unleashed which is the last Sonic game in 3D Sonic game besides Frontiers that I played for the length of time. I made it to the final world in Sonic Unleash which is called Eggman Land which is a notorious, infamous

very long level where you switch between Sonic and Weirhawk over and over again and it's very long. And I felt myself realizing that I was, every single time I had died more or less, it had been because a thing hadn't worked right.

Like, I wasn't able to latch onto the platforms using the special button that latches you onto the platforms that you have when you are in the Werehog mode. He simply wouldn't do it right, and I would die. And the game knew this, because it was throwing power-ups at you and one-ups at you constantly, as if to say, we couldn't be bothered to design this good. So we're just giving you loads and loads of one-ups.

And it reminded me of, and this is ridiculous. I'm going to quote Cadaccharacus now. Jim Caddoch, that's his name, right? He did a review of Crash Bandicoot 4, where he said, if the game is going to demand perfection from me, then I demand perfection from the game. And that's stuck with me ever since he said that, because it implies to 3D Sonic so goddamn well.

That is genuinely one of my favourite things said. Yeah. About games and difficulty discourse specifically, because I think he's spot on. Because if you are going to like... demand that high, like, I'm sorry, I'm not going to go off on a crash tangent here. No, no, no, no.

I mean, Sonic and Crash have a direct, like, lineage, didn't they? It's, it's, the, the thing about Crash 4, for me, was there were multiple times where I died through, I felt no fault of my own. There were, there were times when I, like, for example, I genuinely could not distinguish between the foreground and the background, you know?

I felt like, and what I thought was, No, I did a jump that was slightly too high And I hit a bit of the sky That the game didn't want me to hit And so it killed me That sounds like the level where you have the tornado Death Spin thing And it's like a sort of Asian theme

I remember that one It was one of the final levels Oh really? Okay, well I'm wrong Yeah Well that happens also on the bits where There's a bit where you're climbing up a roof And if you land on the wrong bit of the roof Even though it's clearly just the ground

Yes, you die You die instantly. The game is littered with that. And it is like, for me, that, like, what he has managed to express. In the most graceful way possible. Yes, like that frustration. Yeah. And.

Well, but here's the thing. Sorry, do you mind? Because this does relate back to Sonic 3 in apples in a way that is very clear and will make people not angry that I've gone off on this long tangent. Okay. Here's the thing about Sonic 3. knuckles. Not only does it control perfectly, it never demands perfection, ever, at any point. It does both things brilliantly. You can be as slapdash as you want and have a great experience, or you can be precise to a measure, to a fault, and have a great experience. It delivers

on every level, regardless of how good you are at it, as far as I'm concerned. In the background In the background, my memory fresh. I have been watching a video of somebody playing through launch base zone and it has been mildly frustrating because they

are pranging into every spike in badnik and trap that I know is there from quite a while of having played it. I'm like oh you know and it is slightly frustrating but I also think it is testament to the game's quality he's still gotten through it without

dying. I mean I don't really play that much better than that, to be honest, because I never really bothered memorising them you don't need to. It's, like, it's good, man.

Sorry, that's, that's, I... Well, what else can you say after a certain point? We've gone on to this, yeah. I understand that 3D games face a lot more difficulties, because, like, the lock-on problem we were mentioning with the homing attack there, what's the solution to that

problem in a 3-D invite? Like, I do, think the homing attack is necessary for 3D Sonic? Yeah. What's the solution? Oh, what about a lock on button? Okay, all you have done is shunt the problem up a stage. All you've done is like push the problem back a little bit because now you press the lock on button and the game has to interpret what enemy you want to lock on to. You know, so that's not an ideal solution either. I don't know what the solution is. 2D games can be a lot more immediate and a lot tidier in general, you know? And 3D games are always fighting an uphill struggle because they are trying to fit a 3D environment

onto a 2D screen. So I totally get it, but also that doesn't detract from or diminish the fact that Sonic 3 is very immediate and very just satisfying to control. And there is none of these problems with playing Sonic 3. Yeah. I mean, well, yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't, I mean, I think we've more or less rung out launch base now on everything that's sprung from that.

That means we've been talking about the same zone for over an hour, which is a record, I think. Oh, good. Part of me wants to leave it there just for the lofts, but no, we're going to do Mushroom Hill Zone, okay? Okay. But first, we should talk about the transition that takes place here. You know, I'm going to be able to be. Now, we have extensively covered the launch base zone, which is the zone that, this isn't the right word, but I'm going to say it anyway,

crowns off Sonic 3. Oh, God. It's not even a word, not even a word. And it begins Sonic 4, aka Sonic, and Knuckles not Sonic 4, as in the episodic game they put out, which was not, in fact, Sonic 4, despite what they said. Indeed. It was just another thing. The real Sonic 4, Sonic and Knuckles, begins now, except it doesn't.

It begins a few months later because the game didn't come out yet. Once it did come out, as we've already discussed, it had our whole special snappy lock-on technology that let you continue Sonic 3 and Knuckles as one enormous, brilliant, perfect game. You could play... The first thing you're going to see, if you put in the Sonic and Knuckles cartridge by itself, was a very cool cutscene of the death egg crashing followed by Sonic and Knuckles falling down

or another way around, isn't it? Sonic and Knuckles falling down, landing and doing sort of semi-3D waves at you. Yeah, they're big 3D Sonic's and Knuckles is that fill the screen with their 3Ds. You would then go on to pick whether to be Sonic or Knuckles. Now, unusually, the save feature was gone. Hmm.

Which is a bit hard, isn't it? I suppose, to keep costs down. Oh, and by the way, I remember vividly how extremely baller the theme tune was as well while this was all happening. Amazing little tune. The first time you heard it, what the hell? Boe-ee. It sounds like the sound when you press the buzzer and catchphrase it. Yeah, and then old music.

It was really cool. It was a really, really cool intro. Sonic and Knuckles and Mr. Chips. Make it happen, hackers. Anyway, and of course, hitting start from this point once you've chosen between Sonic and Knuckles. You could play as Knuckles this time. I have a little theory that part of how this...

This was a big impact, right? Sonic and Knuckles, and now you can play as Knuckles. Because, like, in Sonic 3, Knuckles was... And this was the only thing Knuckles have been in up till now, apart from the comics. Knuckles was an antagonist and now he still is an antagonist at this point

when you're playing this game so it's not just like hey which of the cool two dudes do you want no it's good guy or bad guy is what you're selecting basically and Knuckles was just really really really cool it was such a cool dude

and you could play as him and it also had this extra thing which is that up until now it's been Sonic and Tales you know it's not in Sonic 1 but in Sonic 2 and in Sonic 3 and all the tie-in media, it's been Sonic and Tails.

Sonic's Little Pal-Tales. Well, not now. Now it's Sonic and Knuckles. What? This ain't, this ain't your little baby brothers, Sonic. It's grown up with you. Now you've got to be this, this cool brawler with the big spiky fists and his growly face. Could I interject and ask, um, now I'm not actually sure

about this because I never play this game, not locked on ever. Um, Tails is not in this, is he? Like, apart from in the ending. He's not even following Sonic around. He's just not there. I don't think. Can you? Can you? select, I don't think so. I think it's just Sonic or Knuckles. You definitely cannot

select Tales. No. Oh no, he's not. No, I don't think he is. It's just Sonic. It's just so, and Knuckles, actually. Funnily enough. Yeah, he's not following Sonic behind. Because the little Mega Drive Mini that I had

back in high school, but I would play all the time in modern studies under the table. Sorry. How young are you that the Mega Drive Mini? was out while you were at school. It was one of those handheld at games once, presumably. Yeah, yeah. It wasn't the Mega Drive Minute. Oh, okay. It was a Mega Drive mini.

Yeah, it was a mini-megadrive. Come on, Dave. Sorry. Frankly, my mind has been blown by the fact that that was a thing that existed anyway. Yeah, it had rubbish sound and everything. It was, yeah, it was a dreadful piece of kit. It cost me

like 30 quid, but it meant I could play Sonic and Knuckles when I should have been learned. At school, the dream. The dream. I could scarcely think of anything I would have enjoyed more. Oh, no, I was unbelievably depressed by this point. But, um,

it was yeah. I'm not laughing at you being depressed. It was just a good punchline. It was speak for yourself. The, um, yeah, you can only play as Sonic in Sonic and Knuckles. Tales doesn't follow along

behind you or anything. He is basically persona non-grata for this entire game. Yeah, yeah. You've left him behind when you got him at Agamatic and poodleed off. He died in the explosion. He died in the explosion, yeah. It would have been really funny if the game opened with a title card that just really

quickly said, like, Tails died on the way back to his home planet. Following the death of Tails. Like, just it's an incidental detail. They never mentioned any other than that's great, yeah. I mean, if you ask some Sonic fans, they'll tell you that Sonic the Tales is dead because of the end of Sonic 2. on the mast system because they're quite thick. Anyway, yeah.

That's always annoyed me because the implication is not that he's dead, it's that he's missing. Well, again, it's, like, I... Missing because he's dead. I have, like, I don't know. I don't feel like we really need to make Sonic the Hedgehog, particularly adult, you know? I don't think you need to have tales dying to be able...

I don't think you have to have tales dying to... to legitimise this in the eyes of your parents, you know? Your dad's not going to suddenly be like, hello. What's this compelling thing? Hang on a minute. Law and order. Fuck that off. Tails is dead. Oh, by the way.

Can you hear her? Did you hear about tales? I know somebody, and in this moment I can't think who that somebody is. I wonder if it's my wife, Abby, who initially thought that Knuckles had perished there at the end of the launch base zone and that that was it for him. He was drowned and dead. I mean, it's not impossible that he has,

and he's been replaced by an imposter. Yes, he's been replaced by Paul McCartney. He's been replaced by a Knuckles who is curiously red rather than the fact. Yes, that's what happened. It's a different, it's been a different echidna the whole time. Knuckles is just the title of the Guardian of the Chaos Emeralds, and after the pink one died, which was his girlfriend, obviously, because that's how it works in the 90s.

Have you noticed that this, However, doesn't chuckle. That's a point. He doesn't, does he? Does he? Wait. I bet he does. Because there's still little cutscenes and stuff, isn't there? He doesn't chuckle.

He looks a bit shifty at one point. Yeah, you see him looking a bit shifty. Then in a flying battery, you don't see him at all. Well, actually... In Sandopoulos, you don't see him at all. To take that seriously, that actually is an interesting departure from Sonic 3. Yeah, he's not doing the little pranky things. I guess he's got...

After he fell off that stack of things, and saw that Robatnik didn't save him. He's getting a bit of extra respect for this Sonic guy. He's not being... This isn't a silly situation for him anymore. There's kind of like a odd bit of jiggery poker that they have to do between LaunchBase and Mushroom Hill

to get the story to work. Because what you have is you have I'm sorry I got distracted by a background noise there was a like if you're just playing it all the way through like with Sonic 3 locked on to Sonic and Knuckles

you reach the end of the launch base zone the death egg falls down the platform you're standing on falls down and you land in Mushroom Hill and you just carry on but if you are tail sort of flies you down don't he? Well, he doesn't

in this, if you're locked on he does but not in... Yeah, if you're locked on you. In Sonic and Knuckles standalone, Sonic just starts and Knuckles is lying in the middle of the forest. Yeah. Just relaxing. I don't know

if he thinks that the danger is over or whatever and some prankster, some some cheeky little sod throws a bomb at him like a big cartoon bomb with a big black circle with a wick and it explodes and he's like right not having this and he goes off to fight him and the story

kind of is that Knuckles is still on Robotnik's side but there seems to be more suspicion from him because Robotnik's version of disguising what he is doing on the island is to send an egg robot who looks identical to Robotnik after him. And so rather than

fight Robotnik, Knuckles fights the egg robot. Yeah. Yeah, that's something worth mentioning that I don't think we've brought up actually, which is that when you are Knuckles fighting the robotic bosses, you are in fact fighting an egg robot. Yeah, they replaced the Sprite every time. Except for in one

they forgot? Yeah, they just obviously forgot didn't they? And the flying battery Act 2 boss, yes, they forgot to replace the Sprite because it's a unique tile set, I believe. And also, it's probably worth mentioning. I don't think we mentioned it when we covered the zone, but his Marble Garden boss is unique.

Is that fair? Is that right? Or is that only in lock on? There are a lot of differences between the two. Right, right. But, of course, you don't get knuckles in Marble Garden if it's not locked on.

That's true, I forgot. I was silly. Silly. Silly. Well, anyway, there are two openings. There are two different starts of the Mushroom Hill Zone for Sonic, depending on whether you're playing it as a standalone game or locked on. If you play it as a standalone game, you just tails drops you down, you run forwards, there's a loop, you carry on its normal level.

If you are playing Sonic 3 and Knuckles locked on and you get to the Mushroom Hill Zone, possibly the most interesting thing in the game happens, right? Right. I thought you were going to carry on with that, dude. Well, I'm prepared to, but I thought, oh, I'd been talking for a minute. I thought, well, what are you might want to take about? You can't break there. You can't say the most interesting thing in the game happens.

Well, I was expensive you to talk about. Okay, what happens is... The most interesting thing in the game happens here. Now, anyway, flying batteries over. I thought that you were going to talk about the thing, and I was giving you the option. Okay, so, what happens is, there you, Sonic and Tales are, and you are just, you know, one fine day in the mushroom hill zone, you're just wandering along in a bespoke. in a bespoke bit of level that you don't get in Sonic and Knuckles by itself. And you come to the end of a cliff.

You come to the edge of a little drop, and you stop. And they kind of crouch down, and I don't know whether the game makers were trying to imply that Sonic and Tales look down or if they're hiding. It's kind of difficult to tell. I think they're looking down, because that's how you look down in the Sonic game. And what happens is that... Bury your face into your own groin.

beneath them A little cutscene starts And beneath them Knuckles comes out of a secret tunnel Look, pokes his head out, looks around There's all bespoke animation frames Presses a big conspicuous button in the floor And that

And that closes a door Over the little room he's just come out of So of course you, you don't have to But you have the option to But obviously you do You press the button It opens the little room And you go in there

And the whole game changes in a magical, amazing way, because you find, normally, I'm sure we've established, you keep finding hidden big rings. And these big rings are the ones that take you to the special zone where you go around on the 3D planet collecting the balls and you get chaos emeralds that way. But this time, you find a big ring in this secret little room under the ground that isn't gold. It's like flashing all rainbow colors. And you jump into it and you're not taken to a special zone, you are taken to the Hidden Palace.

Someone else start talking, please. I am getting you started. Begin. Oh my God, right. And there's music, there's amazing music you haven't heard of us. It's like the most ethereal thing you can possibly imagine. Like Crystal Palace with these seven, eight, well, seven big,

pedestals and one enormous pedestal with a giant chaos emerald on it and you not yet known to be the master emerald and you if you have collected them as you should have if you have collected all

seven chaos emeralds and availed yourself of supersonic services the game takes that away from you each chaos emerald lands on the pedestal and it doesn't land it goes

like your chaos emeralds come out of you in a ring flying round and then they make the most wonderful someone flick to jewel noise that any game has ever produced and they fly away and these huge laser beams

come blasting down into these weird flowers that are just there and it's like the it's like the chaos emeralds originally grew out of these flowers But now they're massive. They're absolutely huge. They're the size of Sonic the chaos emeralds now. So now we have like an origin story implied for the chaos emeralds as well.

And this is like their true power. They're enormous. Yeah. And so now to get to the special stages, you have to stand on the chaos emeralds to unlock their special stage. Yeah. And you can pick anyone you want. And I think it is, you know, there is a particular layout of special stage attached to each of those.

So you can choose which one you want to do. It isn't random. You know which one you're getting. You want you done it a few times. Yeah. And you do, and it's the normal special stage, except now they have... Much harder. They're harder and they've got orange balls now that are springs.

They've been made more demanding, especially to perfect them. Yeah. And when you finish one this time, the new kind of Emerald appears, the big one. It's like you've given it power, basically. As a kid, I thought there was a distinct design difference between Chaos Emeralds and Super Emeralds other than just size, and I was annoyed when, in Sonic Adventure, they started calling Chaos Emeralds,

the sort that have got a pointy base and are what I would call a diamond shape. That I've been convinced otherwise by closely examining the graphic for the Chaos Emerald when you collected in the special stage, you can actually see a little point through it, so I think it is just sitting on its side. I don't like that. true in, that's not true in like Sonic 1, is it?

They hadn't figured out yet. Who knows? I don't know what they were trying to depict back then, but I certainly hadn't. Right. There's no, yes, there's no evidence for it in Sonic 1, so I get to think of them as the lovely little roundy sort of ones. Yes, just to make it slightly more clear. Yes, sorry, everyone. I haven't. But what happens is you still have to find these big rings hidden in the environment, these big flashing, like, hypersonic looking rings. Yeah, for the spoiler. You jump into them, you will be

taken to the hidden palace instead of straight to a special stage. You go to a little palace and you get to pick one. All the ones you've done already will be lit up. You won't be able to do them again. So you'll have the different colours painted in for the different emeralds. The ones that are still grey, who haven't are transparent, you have to jump on them

do the stage. Once you done the stage, you'll be kicked back out again. Well, well, once you do the stage and you collect the big emerald, it says on the screen now, Sonic got a super emerald. Not a chaos emerald. And you take your glasses off and you blink twice and you go, You go

What? What? And of course your dad stops watching law and order and he's like, I need to get on in this super emerald business. Yeah, not only is the fuck's dead, they're getting super emeralds now. He can't believe it. Nobody can believe it. I don't, like, again... Your dad looks at you and for the first time in your entire life, he says,

I love you, son. Ick the hedgehog. It's like, it is a beautiful... looking level as well and the music is beautiful this is all going to be important later and I'm going to go mental I'm going to pop off when we get there

but I'm going to burst I'm bursting to talk about it now but I can't but Catalina wine mixer but the thing is is that you lose the ability to go supersonic while you're doing this so you're not going to get this aspect

in your first time through but what you essentially have here is you have a risk-reward thing. It's basically, you can choose not to go in the ring and keep Supersonic all through Sonic and Knuckles, and you'll probably do find.

I was about to ask you that. I didn't know you could do that because I have never not done this. I'm fairly sure you can anyway. I think you're right, because I know you can fight Doomsday as SuperSals. I think that if you don't go in that first rainbow ring and visit the Hidden Palace,

the remaining big rings, stay gold and just become 50 rings that you can collect to immediately turn into supersonic. I think. Nice. I didn't, I wasn't aware of that. I believe that's the case. I can't confirm it just now because we all do this. Like Stu says, who doesn't

do this? Yes. We're trying to remember a 30-year-old memory. Disgusting freak. Yeah. Would not get the hypersonic. Normally I'd try and like temper that language, but no, you're absolutely right. But the so what you've done is,

you have traded in supersonic for the chance to get and even like to get hypersonic and even better supersonic yeah um and yeah and it's um that's

really cool but what's also really cool is mushroom hill zone actually has if you're being very vigilant seven giant rings that you can access across this two hours. I noticed it has loads I didn't know it was all seven.

If you, I did this once on stream, like 10 years ago, and I cannot guarantee I could do it now. When your fingers were younger. Yeah, you know, when my metabolism worked, then I could still drink milk. But, like, you can. 10 years ago, when you were at school and not even the last bit of school, the main bit of school. Your young twat. With your little Mega Drive. I'm sorry for calling you a young.

young twat, that was rude. No, I fully deserve it because I talked to a young person recently and had the exact same feeling. It's a problem, isn't it? They didn't know how to punch in, like,

the name on Super Smash Brothers because it uses the old, like, text version where you have to press like, what, like, you have to press, like, two for A and press two twice for B. Yeah. And they didn't know how that worked.

Gosh, I didn't know that's what smash does. Wasn't extremely off the time interface, that is. That's actually a really weird decision for them to have made. It kind of is, isn't it? But, yeah, it's... You can get through... You can get to all seven giant rings in this level alone. And I think that is really smart

because it means that, like, if you're experienced and the surprise has kind of worn off and you're really good and really determined, you can just reclaim hypersonic or hypersonic really you can just get that back within this level I guess we're sort of assuming the listener knows what supersonic is they won't have they won't have listened this far without knowing the normal supersonic we've I think we've talked about it in the first episode okay then what it is is just if you get all of the emeral subsonic can turn into super cyan yellow sonic it is a direct reference to super science it is like

Is it Sayan or Sayan? I've never watched Dragon Ball because I'm an adult. Yeah. Well, right. Technically, it's Sayagin in Japanese. Okay. Gene, like, being person, I believe. This was why I was so confused, because, like, that, I first encountered it via Weebbs.

So, when I was, like, reading the comics, I'm like, oh, Sayan. Well, I thought it was like Sayagin. Where do they get that J from? And I thought I was being silly. Yeah, like, they always abbreviate us SSJ for Super Sijian. Oh, my word. Webes. No, he wasn't...

No, never mind, that's sort of reference that I would get, carry on. But yeah, yeah, he just goes super saying. Yeah, his hair goes golden, and he becomes invincible. He has the speed shoes power up. Yeah, you have the invincibility and speed shoes, basically. Well, I would like to talk about Super Sonic at some stage, because I don't believe we've actually gone into him.

I'd like to talk about him in, once we get sort of more towards the end, because that is something that I did want to cover if we did. Because I think, I've been thinking recently, once we have done all the zones, it's important that we have some sort of wind-up for this. This whole thing is a wind-up, I think. You're always getting me weird jokes.

No, I know. But no, I think this will need, I think there has to be a post-mortem, basically. I honestly think that. I know this is a one long post-mortem, but I think it needs to be a post-mortem of the post-mortem. Unless the Retronauts listeners say, Stu, you were taking the absolute piss.

No more Sonic episodes. to which I will say, no, I will make more sonic episodes. Something I wanted to mention before we moved on from it is I do think this is important, if that's okay. Knuckles. They've changed his music, so he's not evil music anymore. They've changed it to mysterious music. He's not got his, like, uh-oh, here he goes, there comes, there comes Knuckles.

But they've changed it to the do-do-do-do-do-do, do, do. which is much more kind of like mysterious hero music. Yeah. It's a bit mysterious city as a goal, isn't it? It's a mysterious girl. I want to get close to him. No, I think it's important because, interestingly enough, now that you know that Knuckles is suspicious of Robotic

or at least is implied to be suspicious of Robotic or at least is implied that there's more going on than just, I am a minion, and I don't mean the fun kind of illumination minion. even when you play Sonic as Sonic 3Nacles as Sonic and Nichols appears now the music's been replaced and yes I know that's a technical thing most likely but it's also accurate isn't it to the story because this mysterious man has come again and he's not evil and you know he's not evil

but Sonic doesn't know that yet well that's like this is the thing is this is one of those really nice little things I enjoy about video games that is not going to sound impressive to anybody at all ever. But what I really like about it is how do we know that Knuckles has more going on? How do we know it's more complex? How do we know he's not pure evil? And the answer is you play as him. Yeah, exactly. And what are the enemies

that you, like, you playing as him implies that there has to be some kind of like empathetic quality? But what are the enemies that he's fighting? It's not Sonic, it's badnicks. You know, he's bopping the badnicks. He doesn't want them there either. So that begins to suggest, like, at least

suggest some kind of mutiny or a complicated outlook on Robotnik at the very least. And I don't know, it's just I'm fascinated by that. I'm fascinated by how the game gets that story across

without a single word? It's very often cited as one of the most impressive silent narratives in video game. By me? And, I mean, well, by many people, I find, and I agree, like, completely

agree. It's, I have seen others that have impressed me, but this is, to me, is still a benchmark because it's like, not only is it not really a story-led game or genre,

but they managed to tell a story without stopping the game. Yeah. Like, it's, there are bosses whose attacks tell a story in this game. You know, it's insane when you think about it. They tell the,

like, they communicate the plot point. I mean, no, we're getting ahead of ourselves. I'm not going to spoil this now. Even though everyone already knows, I will not spoil it.

We are going back to Mushroom Hill. Now, we are there. We are standing. among the mushrooms right now? Mushroom Hill is very loop-de-loop heavy. I like it a lot.

It's very winding, twisting, turning. There's a lot of roots all kind of jumbled up and interconnecting at very point, like creepers, like criss-crossing over each other. And I think that gives it a unique quality that I really enjoy. It also does something

that I am astonished that Sonic got here first. It has bouncy mushrooms. yeah it has mushrooms that you bounce on yeah where's the bouncing mushrooms in your crappy did Sonic do that first yeah yeah well it made it did it before Maria yeah yeah um because there are bouncing mushrooms in Mariah

but not till new Supermarica brothers yeah yeah you're right yeah but do you know the whole mushroom hill zone I can remember what it was like to play Sigur Amiomoto was shitting himself to play Sonic and Knuckles um for the first time and like the mushroom hill zone felt really weird in a good exciting way because it was you know up till now every sonic game we've had has started with a the pleasant day out zone right you know nice

tropical sunshine and palm trees and stuff that's the first two uh yeah get an late bit buddy underground zone says hi all right fine and then the third one is like an inversion of that because it starts nice and then goes on fire this though is like oh what's this it's Still that sort of level, but it's all mushrooms everywhere. And the music's weird. That strange squodgy, wah, wah, wah, noise. It was strange. Can I briefly interject?

Oh. Shea, when you chuckled just then, were you also thinking of the big train sketch? Is that why you laughed? No, no, I was laughing. I was laughing at Dave's phrasing. Yeah. And then it goes on fire as if it voluntarily ignited itself.

That's what I realized subconsciously I've got that from big train. Yeah, I didn't think of it at a time. What you've done there is, what you've done there is, you've gone on fire. You've gone on fire. You've gone on fire now. I love that sketch so much. Look it up, folks. Hey, do you think that, uh, do you think the Sonic ever ate any of the mushrooms and then a big, you know, drugs? This whole thing. You need to play some Mario Galaxy while you're on mushrooms. Shut up. Sorry, I didn't mean that. Reference that again. But then we got to cut more of the episode.

I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I thought that's what you're referencing. Yeah, I know, it's fine. It's fine. You know, people are already, like, completely out of their minds with not going to know what's going on. But, no, Mushroom Hill, as you were saying, I mean, there's quite a lot of things I like about Mushroom Hill. Unfortunately, not many of them are in its structure, so to speak, in terms of actual level design. Because I think that, okay, I'm going to be a bit of a hot take boy now. I'm going to be a bit of an edgy boy now.

Though this is my real sincerely held opinion. I think that mushroom hill up to this point represents a very, very clear step down in terms of how interesting the level designs are in layout. It doesn't really do anything new, apart from your sort of weird hang gliding using mushrooms. Oh, I'd forgotten about that. What it does do that's cool. Now, the bouncing mushrooms are fun, but they're momentum killers. You just have to stop and stand on them and bounce until you've got three rings or something. It's not very interesting.

Jumping on those platforms that you press down to hitch up and go up, it's not very fun. Good sound effect, though. It's a big tedious. On the original hardware, very good squeaky noise. When I say not very fun, we're talking about like a split second of weight or a couple of seconds of this hit.

Now, there are these things in this level where you'll be going fast and then suddenly this vine will just grab you and you'll have to do a spin dash. Why? To stop you? Why? Why are they there? They are not interesting obstacles.

Now, all me saying this is not to say this level sucks because it absolutely doesn't. What it acts as is essentially a second intro level within the same game. And even despite that, it works because it functions as both an intro level, what with it being a little bit stop-start, a little bit maybe occasionally slow outside of the constant loops, you know, and also a bit of a kind of mid-game like, well, we've just on a quite hard level. Let's have a bit of a breather now. Well, this is something that I really think elevates this game.

I said it in the first episode with a very laboured Star Wars comparison, but it's the pacing of it. It is, like, you reach a climax in the launch base zone. Yeah. If you play it like I do, you do. Oh, for, yeah. Sorry. Yes. Yes.

Yes. I forgot you're not rude to do. I shouldn't say. I'm a very polite boy. What are you saying, Shane? And I've never sworn either. Like, you reach, like you finish launch base.

It's like at a climax. It's like the tension has built to this point and you've defeated Robotnik there and so the tension is released. And what the game knows to do at this point then is bring everything back down a notch to like commensurate with your relief. You know, it's not going right.

More intensity. because that would just get exhausting. That would just get really tedious. You wouldn't be able to carry your way through the entire game at that high strung, at that high an emotional level. This is the game's refractory period,

basically, isn't it? That was rude. A admonished Dave. You've been rude, then? I wasn't really admonishing him. I was doing a bit. I know I'm doing a bit by monitoring. I did notice.

We're all doing bits all the time. What a, I was going to say pair, trio of meddlers we are. I did notice. We are just a bunch of jack-out. When I was playing this level to get ready for this podcast, just to remind myself. But actually, yeah, there are loads of bits in this level's layout. I'm not normally the sort of person who notices layout stuff. But this level has loads of layout bits where, like, all that a whole section is there to do is sort of tangle you up.

So there'll be bits where a spring will just send you into a dead end. and you've got to find your way back out again, or something will send you to... Like, there's one bit where... So the things we've alluded to already, if you don't know, listeners, the things I said have a good squeak and Stu said you press down to go up,

they're like these dangling handles, and you grab onto one, and you pull with your whole weight down, and it makes a ratchety thing go up some notches in the middle so that when you let go again, you're higher, and you do that. You pull that a few times until you're up on another level. It's quite cool.

They are quite cool. It is cool. But there's a bit where, like... I'm not going to... I don't remember... this very clearly, so I won't be accurate, but there's a bit where essentially that's at the top, and the, you know, the handles are

at the bottom, and when you get to the top, there's something that'll throw you back down to the bottom again. So you've got to sort of find your way back up again another way, and you didn't have to go that way at all, and it's all just a bit of a circular thing where things are just sending you into dead ends for the sake of it, which I don't think much of the rest of the

game does. It's very, like, again, that's something that distinguishes this level. It's very fluid, and it's very knockabout. Now, I'm with Stu. I think that Sonic and Knuckles, in terms of raw level design, is weaker than Sonic 3. But again, it's still of a very high quality. I think, I personally think that despite what I said about it, essentially, being a step down.

I think step down isn't always necessarily awful. And in this respect, I think it does serve the pacing of the game, as you say. And let's face it, Mushroom Hill is, like, really short. Like, the two acts are not very long anyway. Yeah. So nobody thinks about Mushroom Hill and goes, oh, mushroom Hill, I hate that. Nobody does that. You know, you ask people what's lonely hate, and they'll tell you to Sandopolis, you know?

And we'll get to that eventually in about nine years. But with Mushroom Hill, what it does is it gives you this breathing space. And yes, tangling you up sometimes and letting you slowly ascend a thing is valuable, I think. Now, what it also does, as well as having these as elements, is it gives you weird things happening with them. Like, for example, and this is an obtuse example, but one of those cranks that you go up, now all of them have two sides to them, so Sonic can get on one side, and if you're playing locked on tails, can get on the other, necessarily. Now, if Sonic's on the left hand crank, when he gets to the top, the next room he takes will be one way. If you're on the right-hand crank and you jump off, you will go in a different route. You are what?

It puts you on different parts of the foreground and background, which changes the way that you go in the level. You flip it, what? I've never known that. And I think, I think that every time I think I go on the right-hand one, just in a weird, like, subconscious, maybe superstitious thing, just like, oh, I'm comfortable there. We're going to have to start going on the left-hand one and see what I find. There's a bit in particular where you go up one of them, and if you spin-dash to the left, you can roll on the ceiling. Right, that, I was going to mention that.

I've always called that the anti-grav chamber. I don't even spin-dash. I don't even spin-dash. It's just... Yeah, but listen. Dave, Dave, Dave, what, what? If you go up on the left and you go up there, you don't go on the ceiling, you go through the ceiling.

You go into the roofmate when there's stuff up there. Oh, my God. Right, does this explain why? when you said the thing about hang gliding on a mushroom I was like oh yeah like I used to do 30 years ago but I've never done again since

in real life yeah there's so much stuff to this game there's like stuff that like I I'm still discovering new things when I play it through today I'm firing it up now I need to I need to find this

but it's it's a very fluid level and a lot of the obstacles won't really outright kill or even damage you. No, a lot of them knock back. A lot of them knock you back, yeah. There's a little, like, rooster that, like, puffs itself up and then blows you back with the wind. The weathercock, he rules.

Yeah. And the mushroom that goes thrown at you that bounces you as well. Yeah, the mole guy, like, throws a mushroom that bounces you around a bit. He just chucks it at you, and it bunks onto you and you go flying away. So it is a more, like, kind of, like, it is a, how should I say, like a lazier level. it is a level that is a lot like simpler, easier to get the grips with, more relaxed.

You're just kind of like, you can play through this level half-ledded, which is you know, and even the level design seems a lot more like slapdash. There's lots of loops to kind of keep you occupied. But you kind of get thrown like lots of, there's lots of like, it doesn't even really seem to have like a

high, middle, low roots. They're all just mish-mashed together. And depending on what you do at a particular point, you'll go to a different part of the level. Just basically every two seconds. Now, let's mention something that we've not mentioned

yet about this level, which is the most striking visual aspect of it, which is the fact that you go through the season. Yes. That's nice. I like that. It's so good. It's so cool. It's really, really. And it's subtle as well. Like, they load in the new colour palette as you're going through

certain, you know, obstacles and back there and little tunnels and things, and you don't really notice it first. If you manage to get back, you will notice many glitches. That's fun with that. But it's something that's always meant that even though I don't love playing the level as a piece of gameplay, I love playing the level as part of the tapestry that makes up the best game ever made, Sonic 3 and Knuckles. You know, it's there.

It may be where the rest of the, maybe the rest of the tapestry is all beautifully sewn. Maybe this part's just a big staple, but it doesn't actually matter because it's great. and it still holds it together. If we're talking about weaknesses in the design, I'm going to talk about the anti-grave chamber because I flippin, love it. Once you've gone up one of those squeaky-handled things, you are put in a bit of the level

that has no other purpose than what I'm about to say, because it doesn't seem to be anything else, except now I've learned that it can be used as a secret way through to another thing, and I'm about to find that out by playing it. But the way I always play it, on the right handle, the right-hand handle version of the game, imagine just a long stretch of ground,

with a, which curves up, the wall kind of curves up on the left-hand side, never becomes a straight-up, it continues curving to reach a ceiling that is equally long and it just goes over that long stretch of ground. So it's just a sort of a, it's just a little chamber. And if you run towards that curved bit, you'll run up it and now you're running along the ceiling. And if you just keep the button held down, Sonic just has the correct amount of momentum to just keep running along that ceiling and then drop. off onto a badnik's head. And it's for no reason, it's just nice. What it reminds me of, and I want you to stop me, both of you, if I've talked about this before. Oh, okay. No, well, good test.

No. Now, this is a tangent that's going to piss people off. Back when I was a kid, there's a place near me called Midsummer Common had a midsummer fair every year. It was like a fate, you know, and they would bring fairground rides to it. It would have to be if it's called Midsummer Common. Christ knows what the ride was called. But all it was, it's like a 60s or 70s ride or something is you would go inside a big tube

It's a big tube you could stand up in Like very big And it was carpeted entirely internally On the entire, on all surfaces of said tube And then they would press a button And the tube would start rotating anti-clockwise With you in it And that's it

That's the entire ride You would just be in a tube that was spinning and you, if you wanted, you could run up the side of the tube while it was spinning and get momentum that you couldn't normally get when you were running up a wall. End up on the ceiling and fall down and hurt yourself. Oh, cool. Then what you would do, because you were a child, is you would land directly on your skull, bounce back up onto your feet again, kick your heels and do it again.

Yes, but if you do, the upside is that if you do this for long enough and get fast enough, then there'll be an explosion and the cobalt effect will turn you blue and fuse your hair into snazzy spots. find. That's what it was called the retroorbital chaos compressor. No, it wasn't. What was it called? It was called the gyratoscope or gyratusphere, depending on which version you're reading. The retroorbital chaos compressor. That was something else, wasn't it?

That was the thing that turned robotic into robotic, yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly, which is how I became robotic. Yes. How that happened. It's a shame that that happened, really, but I digress. Anyway, that ride always reminded me of Sonic, because what it's about is the freewheeling fun of just thinking you can do something and then doing it. You know, of course, as a result, yes, many, many brain injuries. Yes, obviously, yeah.

You know, that's what got me where I am today. Nice. That deserved a bigger laugh when I actually gave it. Yeah, it was funny. But no, that's what that's what it is and that's what that anti-grav room reminds me of. Now, is there anything else we can add until we talk about the bosses of this stage? because even the bosses are kind of ridiculous in this stage. The first one is one of my favorite mini-boss designs ever,

and I can't know what it's cool, but it's like a lumber. It's a lumberjack robot, isn't it? And he's got a big axe, and he chops trees into little logs with a lovely little doink noise that's real good. And never survives long enough to actually do any attacks. No, I've no idea what he does. I don't know even what happens if he gets through his first tree. I think he throws his axe at you.

What? Does he start on another tree? He does, yes. He throws his axe at you. he throws something at you like for sure I'm sure it's his axe but hang on

oh my God you know what he is called what you're going to love this no he's got a cool name but I can never remember it yeah hey ho

okay let's go I wonder why he's got that he's a lumberjack and he's okay ho hmm he

oh oh no No, no, sorry, it's... Wasn't that an outcast song? What? The Lumberjack song. No, he fired... That's Hay-Yo. I know it's Hey, but...

Not the lumberjack song, Dave. That was very funny. I thought it well, though. Sorry, I'm reading... Now, apparently, Hey-ho, he's never survived long enough for me to do this. Again, I like Hay-ho, because his name's Hay-ho, and also he suggests industry, you know, is kind of like, oh, robot next door on from building big scaffolding to launch a space station to chopping drip down lumber. Okay, like, you know, we're kind of, again, we're in a bit of a lull at this point.

Yeah, what's he up to? What's he doing? But apparently for Sonic, once it reaches the last bit of wood, it gets its axe stuck in the tree, tries to pull it loose pings or like gets it loose but in the process pings off to the right of the screen whereupon it finds more trees

and the boss resets as knuckles it throws its head at you oh sweet right lads I just I just paraglided with a mushroom and it wasn't because I went the other way in the anti-grave chamber yet I'm not even there

this game this game Live laugh love Heyho Heyho is also what Amy says When she sees Ruge Rude It is a bit rude

Wasn't it A little bit Sorry Amy Sorry Ruge So Mushroom Hill Zone Okay I didn't go through the thing I just went over the ceiling

Like normal What the hell You've done it wrong Obviously done it wrong I'll try again Clearly done it wrong Now, the second boss in Mushroom Hill is a bit of a blinder, if you ask me. I very much like this boss.

What it is, is it's robotic in a big blue pair of pants. Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute, though. Wait a minute, though. Because what it is first is the resolution to the seasons thing. Oh, yes, of course. You've been through autumn, and you think, oh, I've been here for a while, it's autumn now. And then you go through a sort of wintery, or at least like, or like, kind of, maybe everything's just sort of dying? And then

you get to the end of it. Yeah. What? Yeah, you end up in the green bit, don't you? They're really light, bright bit. I thought you said you end up in ice cream. Oh no, that would be great, but no. Yes, it's very, very light. It's very, very light as if everything's just sort of gone wrong. And you come across this big satellite dish that's firing a laser up into the sky. And that's what's doing.

And it's going, do-l-d-d-l-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-l. Like, it's making dial-up noises. Yeah, and that's what's doing it. And then you bop that, and not only does it turn out to be an egomatic, it's rebuttoning with a thing on his head, but also, that fixes the seasons, turning the laser off, turns it back to how it was when you first got it. It was robotic. He was doing stuff to the zone. Robotic pops out as if to say, Owa Rumbled.

Yeah. Time I wasn't here. Again, exhibiting some pretty, like, masterful uses of the 3D effects. Like, again, sorry, like, these aren't actual 3D. effects, it's just layering the parallax layers in such a way that it appears to be 3D. Yeah, but it really does, don't it?

Whizzing past these trees in the foreground and background and jumping over or ducking under spikes. While you're chasing after Robotnik in his big pair of pants. Now, here's what I've just realized. He's changing the seasons to make the trees grow faster. Is he?

I think so. But Ian, I don't see any reason to refute it, but I also don't see why you've said it. What do you mean? Because I'm just thinking why would he do that? That seems like a bit of a non-sequitur considering everything else in the game, but I'm just thinking like, oh, the first boss

was a lumber robot. Right, so he wants loads of wood? I guess so, yeah. Because he's built the death egg out of wood. Yeah, he's got a wooden death egg that he's working on now. Well, listen, I'm like... You know, no, I'm sticking with this theory. I like it.

I assume you have to use wood to, I don't know, like, fuel the furnace of the dead meat. It's hard to use the cold furnace. I don't know. Like, again, that's probably, that, like, this is a thing. That's probably...

No, you know, robotic's deforesting because he's a dick. He likes deforesting, so he's making them grow so we can deforest them again. I mean, that, like, I mean, look. He probably just flushes all the wood down the toilet. He just feeds it into a wood chip.

That's going to clog up straight away. yeah it is always does when I try and flush massive me oh my god I don't know like I'm ashamed of myself I need to I need to I need to stress here

that I'm not like yeah I'm not sitting here like all of this is absolutely completely zoned in and intentional like I I can tell you the secret narrative of Sonic 3 and Knuckles but it's just

I don't know. I guess it's that I'm enthusiastic enough about this game to try and make sense of it, to try and put these pieces together. It's a game that invites this kind of speculation. You know, it's the kind of storytelling that invites this. It's why it's like why Mortal Kombat got so popular, because they would give you breadcrumbs, you know, and then the fans would fill in the blanks. And that's what's happening right now, live before your ears. That's what that makes this game so beautiful, man. We're talking about it, and all of us have discovered new things about it. Can I tell you what I've just discovered? I just started the level again, because I wanted to, the whole zone again,

because I wanted to go another way again. And I noticed that in the cutscene, when you go to the edge of the cliff and knuckles presses the little button and runs away, oh, no, it's not just there. It's whenever you jump and land on the ground, you scatter little leaves or seeds or something. And they just float down from the ground where you landed. I thought they were like

Mushroom Sports. Yeah, something like that. Oh, it's lovely. They didn't have to put that in at all. And it just gives it... Looks like we're going for a high sport. What? What? I know, it was going to be high score. And it just... I haven't... I've never even noticed that. Like, that's

amazing. This game is so alive. Is that in every level? Is there a version of that in every level? Although we've never noticed. That's... I mean, there's a lot of stuff in Mushroom Hill we haven't mentioned even. Like the The platforms that extend as you all over them. Yes, that are like curled up vines that you un-curl with your weight as you run along them. The little mushrooms that boeing around, and when you hit them once, their little hats come off,

and now they're just a robot, and then you're boeing them again. And don't forget the dragonflies that flutter, flit up and down with their long, spiky tailors. Yeah, but then if you get them in the wrong end, they're nasty. Yeah, exactly. But if you get them in the right end, they can be very, very... Yeah. Okay, it's very clear that it's late. I know, it's absolutely bedtime.

So I think that we should arrest this at this point. Okay, no, I'm playing Angel Island's own. Little things do not fall down when you land on the floor. So that is a mushroom hill or Sonic and Knuckles thing. I think it's also when you get speed up. When you get speed up when you're on the mossy grass. Like when you're going around the loops and stuff, yes, the spores scatter because Sonic is moving that fast. this game man

this game good isn't it that's dead good Sonic 3 & Knuckles I mean if you haven't figured it out yet our final judgment for this game is going to be like you know 9 out of 10

8 out of 10 like 9 scores we like this game that's why this has turned into this that's where we're able to talk about it for so long without having to repeat things you know I mean yes we are going on tangents

Yes, and it's not as if we're definitely not repeating any things, but still, they've got a lot of different things. So I'd like to just now, unless there's more to say, I'd like to throw over to our delightful guests this episode. I'd like to go over to Shamey first. I'd like to ask the listeners, not the one I'll ask you, actually, if you would inform the listeners, of where they can find you and what the things are that you do. I'm Shemi You can find me on Twitter S-H-A-Y

M-A-Y-U-U-S-A-Y-U-S-A-Y-U-Sk I do currently, my current ongoing project is big, massive, long game reviews if you think I can talk for a long time about this, you ain't seen nothing yet. So if

you, if that sounds interesting to you, then my YouTube channel is the same. It's Shamey. Um, there, it's been fairly quiet for about the last year while I've been working on a mega project, which is now nearing completion. By the time this is out, it may actually be done. Um, and it may actually be in, like, if it's anything like last time, it may be kind of plonking itself in your subbox unwanted. Um, so, so apologies for that. and as well as the delightful show me

who's making these very meticulous I don't like saying video essays is there a better phrase than video essays, reviews? Videos, I think.

Just good videos, yeah. And they are meticulously made videos. It's not us rambling like what this is. It's actual meticulously produced content. The amount of time that you put into this stuff is just like wild and a good way. Like you're putting the work in

no one can say that you're not. So definitely. you check them out. I mean, what you've already done, I mean, I know I say this every time you come on, but I love your Crash Bandicoot video. That's my favorite one that you've done. And I'd recommend that because it's you going through every single level in the game and

offering something valuable to say about all of them without going into ever exhausting, I would say. Thank you so much, but you've also done a very long video about Pokemon, which I'm, I don't know Pokemon, I don't like Pokemon, so I haven't watched it. I know,

many people who have watched it, and I know people who have watched it more than once. So that's a pretty strong recommendation for that one. Anyway, sorry, yes. Also with us is the spectacular British man, Dave Bulmer. Yes, the spectacular British man. That's what they call me.

Yeah, I'm Dave Bulmer, and I'm from Sonic. That's why I'm here for this. The Comic, the Podcast. Sonic, the Comic, the Podcast. It comes out every two weeks. We are examining the way Sonic used to be. You know how we are now during this? Well, everything about Sonic has been recond after this game, basically, and

so we're doing a podcast about the time before that, the original Sonic stuff, via the lens of the comic that used to come out here in Britain, not the American one, because they just made up anything. They made up a weird Star Wars thing, where it was a princess and some freedom fighters, in the jungle. No,

Forrest is the word I meant there. We're talking about the British comics, where it is actually based on the games. and also they have loads of stuff about pop culture at the time and we take you back with us to tell you about what it was like to live there and like listen to tapes of me when I was young and read my diary and stuff it's a full-on come with us to the past kind of an experience

myself and Shay have both been guests on it so this is just full tilt like nepotism yes oh yeah absolutely um they uh we forgot to mention the lovely little butterfly robots in the in the mushroomville zone little butterflies um yeah the lovely little mutta-bush-up which you then immediately kill on site. Yep, you just pop them. You can also find me on Twitter, Demon Tomato Dave. I'm on YouTube at Demon Tomato Dave, and I've done a couple of long videos about games as well.

I recommend you look at Dave's first game, which is where I tell you what it was like to be in the 80s when ZDX Spectrum games are coming out, but to think of them as the new exciting thing and not a retro thing that looks old. I try and make you feel that. And also there's one called Learning to Settle that I think is quite good.

you might like. There you go. That's me. Demon Tomato, Dave, YouTube and Twitter. Yes. I'm sure we'll be hearing from both of the future Retronauts episodes, including the sequel. On's about this. To this one. I'm waiting for a cease and desist from

Jeremy Parrish. Yeah. Well, I mean, I've been getting some letters from Jeremy Harris, but I've just been popping them in the fire, to be honest. Red letters and that. He's been specially changing the environment to grow trees just to make a big in a fire to burn Jeremy's complaints.

Yeah, what I've done is essentially monstrous. Anyway, Retronauts, thank you very, very much for listening to this episode. I hope very much that you enjoyed it, despite our best efforts to ensure that you don't. Hey, we've not done too bad here. I'm only reading two hours 16. I think we've done all right. Yeah, and also quite a lot of it's going to have to be cut because of all the horrible things that we said. What's this wee business?

What's this wee business? business. I've never said anything remotely objectionable in my life. Okay. Okay. Sorry, I thought you were using the toilet then, but being confused as to what was happening. Yeah, I thought it was some weird Scottish bullshit. Sorry, that was actually a bit too rude. I apologise. That's just such a good takedown of anything he ever says. We're on a, like, retro gaming podcast, and I said some wee nonsense and, not picked up in that. Oh, yeah. No, no.

Oh, I see. No, didn't. No, sorry. I don't think of the we as well. No, that's the thing. It came out when I was an adult. I know. Isn't that what Mario Galaxy was on? That's just recent. Yeah, man, imagine if you took loads of DMT

and fucking then play Mario Galaxy. Anyway, this is going to come out like a year after that article is forgotten. Yeah, it is going to mean nothing. Especially because we cut the initial reference to the... Yeah, and because next week we're not going to That's a great episode.

Early access to on Retronauts if you get on our Patreon, which is at patreon.com forward slash Retronauts. You will, for just three pounds per month, three pathetic pounds per month, you will get early access to the weekly Monday episode of the show seven days in full advance, and you will be cooler than all your friends who don't do that.

And they'll be like, oh man, did you check out that amazing Regenronauts episode about Ninja Hampstown on the spectrum? And they'll be like, oh that one uh yeah that i already heard that last week uh yeah i've already moved off the episode about star paws on the spectrum this isn't a horrible dark future where i've taken out for red for i've already i'm already listening to the one about fat worm blows of sparky actually however if you pay on the fat one plus or let's do a fat one blows of sparky episode i've never played it i've no idea what it is i mean we we should do an episode there's just games that

have yeah no we should that be a good one i would like that I would love that. Yeah, we should do it. Okay, anyway, $5 per month, because for some reason it's changed between dollars and pounds here, $5 per month, which you'll all agree is a pathetic amount of money, you will not just be getting early access, you'll be getting two full-length Patreon-exclusive episodes per month. What?

I know, right? And they're good, they're like proper episodes about, like, Super Metroid and stuff. Like, real games that people really want to... Oh, yeah, I've tried to listen. It's happened to me where I've gone like, oh, cool, Retronauts have done a Super Metroid one, and I start listening. It's a preview for the Patreon. It's only the coolest people in the world get to listen to that.

Yeah, it's a preview because you haven't even got the decency to stomp up $5 a month. But no, you will get those episodes, and you will get the early access episodes. You'll get the full Retronaut's experience, which makes you cool, and everyone who doesn't do that lame, Dave. and you will also be getting the diamond fights really rather good this week in retro columns where they cover a full, they cover a different subject every week, and also record themselves reading it, so you get basically an extra mini podcast, which is a pretty sweet deal. You also get to go on the Discord where you can tell me off of being wrong and stupid about things,

as well as talk to other people, though I don't really understand why you would really want or need to. I've got with me there, after all, you know. Anyway, thank you very much again. Reginalds will return eminently. We shall return to talk about Sonic 3 and Knuckles some more. And, God, other such terrible, terrible outcomes.

Thank you very, very much. Goodbye, everybody. Bye-bye. Thank you. Thank you.