Retronauts - 588: Videopac Insiders

Episode Date: January 29, 2024

A rarely-heard European perspective on the Odyssey2 (or Videopac) is revealed as former Philips staffers Oscar Groosman and Ton Kemmere join host Kevin Bunch to discuss their insider perspectives on marketing the console, its distribution, and its end. Retronauts is made possible by listener support through Patreon! Support the show to enjoy ad-free early access, better audio quality, and great exclusive content. Learn more at http://www.patreon.com/retronauts

This week on Retronauts, Odyssey Who? Hi folks, Kevin Bunge here. In this episode of Retronauts, we have. a very special interview to bring you. I recently got to speak with Oscar Grusman and Tom Kamir, who were two folks who worked on advertising and marketing on the Odyssey 2 in Europe and beyond, where it was known under a variety of names, but most notably video pack. They provide a unique perspective into the inner workings of the video pack and how well it did in Europe and other parts of the world. It's a perspective that I don't think you see very often

in the English-speaking world, particularly when it comes to discussing video games in the early 1980s, where the common wisdom is that home consoles didn't really sell very well, and it was mostly based around home computers. So hopefully this clears up some myths and answers some questions. This is something of a follow-up to our Odyssey 2 episode, so if you haven't heard that yet, I certainly recommend it. The audio quality here is not amazing. But I think the information and the discussion that we had is absolutely fantastic and well worth listening to. So please enjoy. And I'll see you on the other end.

So this is Kevin Bunch. I'm joined today by two folks who were there during the heyday of the Odyssey 2 or Video Pack at Phillips over in Europe. So I suppose introductions. Let's start with you, Oscar. Okay. Thank you, Kevin. Well, my name is indeed Oscar Grossman.

I am 71 years old, live in Holland, close to Eindhoven, where early days the headquarters of Phyllis were. I was once the product manager of VideoPack and Game Computers in the group of the Black and White Television. I come back to that later on the organizational structure. For some period beginning of 1980 till mid-85, And besides me, is my friend Ton also living in Eindhoven, he was then there. I was the advertising manager for the, let's say, for the whole black and white group.

And video pack for whatever reason was part of the black and white television group. And I'm a little bit older than Oscar. I'm 84. and I was the advertising manager and okay. Before we go in detail, like Tonne was already trying to do, I'll make a sketch of the organizational structure of Phillips in those days. Sure. Did you allow me?

When I joined Phillips, that was in 1979, frankly speaking, in the Video 2000 group, I came from IBM after working for CROX for a couple years, Rank Cirox those days, IBM, I sold their mainframe computers and so on. But in 1980, the Phillips organization itself, when I joined there, was about 420,000 people, employees worldwide, and it was broken down in a number of product divisions. I think there were, I cannot remember exactly, but something like 12 or 13, 12 or something like that. You had all. Audio, you had video, you had medical systems, you had chemical components, Dufar chemical, polygram, etc. Defense systems, data systems, or electrolyte, or something like that. Domestic.

And small domestic appliances and major domestic appliances, what we call these days White Goods. That were the product divisions, and the management of the product division were all over. located, more or less all located in Holland and in Idaho, in itself, the headquarters. But there was a matrix structure worldwide. I think more than we, Phillips, Phillips was active in more than, say, hundred countries. And each of the product divisions had in a country,

yes or no, a local sales or a local industrial organization or local development organization. We call that a matrix structure. And that was very complex. for the top management of Philips to manage because there was a high degree of autonomy or perceived autonomy in the countries where we were all active. And that means that in a number of product divisions, for example, audio, video, they were in most countries represented by an organization. But if you had some more in the gray area, defense system or something like that,

then they were only available in an own organization in a very limited number of countries say five or ten or twenty or something like that that means that there was now and then a cowboy concerning management for managing point of view a cowboy philosophy

there were a large number of people in the local countries who did not follow the product policy or the commercial policy as defined in the headwaters that was the situation when I joined the group where Ton was already working. How it all started with VideoPack.

In 1978, 1979, we had a guy in the product division. Talk about the Product Division television in 1980, 1970, that was separated from audio. But it was in the Video Group, I think it was called, Video Group. Yeah, in FedEx. And in that VEDAG group, there was, a video equipment, a group. There was video recorders

and color television and black and white television, I think. And there was a certain guy, John Shuttleworth, maybe have seen that name in the past somewhere in some documentation, who had a close cooperation with Magnafox in Knoxville, because

in Knoxville, Tennessee, there the Odyssey operation started, in fact, as a nice follow-up. I really don't know why they started over there. referring to that cowboy world in those days from management point of view. America was far away from Holland, of course.

And there was a project called Odyssey. I think it was, yeah, people were enthusiastic about ping pong games and all those kinds of things in 77, 78, that area, or that period, I would say. And there was kind of a game system with a keyboard. Plastic keyboard and the cartridges that you could plug in, and there were a number of video games developed locally by all kinds of local software developers in the neighborhood of those guys

who were organizing that in 78, 79 in the States. On a certain moment, some wise guy said if they are successful and they sell quantities in the States, why won't we do that in Europe as well? And that is the moment that John Shuttleworth, I think it was 79, started to cooperate with Tennessee, And they started producing the G7,000, that was in fact the same system with them based on, I think it was Paul Cicam. And you had NTSC or so in those days.

And we imported, as far as I remember, we imported quantities, that was before my time, imported quantities in 79 to Europe. And in Europe they were being offered, as it worked in those days, offered to the national sales. organizations in that matrix structure who is interested and where is there already a market development sorry like something like Atari or so in in those countries in Europe quantities hardware were purchased consoles were purchased and a number of games came with that which were in principle at that moment organized programmed organized by also by third parties We're a software group somewhere in the neighborhood of Knoxville. Now, enthusiastically, we took a number of those cartridges over.

We started selling them, but it was real BS, as you say in the Dutch. Because when the countries received their goodies from the States, I think it was for the production of the States, it simply did it work. There was a certain moment, from technical point of view, the consoles, didn't work and the joysticks didn't work. And on a certain moment we said, yeah, should we continue with that yes or no? And then I don't know exactly why.

I was on the verge quitting again with Phillips and I came from IBM and he said, Oscar, do you want to be the successor of John Shuttleworth? And he said, oh, yeah, if not, why not, it's interesting. A little bit hardware, a little bit software and so on. And that's the way how I joined that group.

And it was done, a subset. It was transferred to the small, a smaller group, now not so small, but a smaller group than color television in the black and white television. And that was under the management on a certain Mr. von Heeren. I think he's already in time, Van Heer, Van Heer. He wasn't German. No, he wasn't German. And that was a site activity at that moment.

And I started there in January in 1980. The products, the consoles and the cartridges from the States were distributed. I think in the UK and in Germany and in France somewhere. And it was a big problem because from technical point of view, they were not good. So we had to make a plan to rework all the goodies which came from the States. That was a pain in the ass. And of course the software, which was an offer to us via Magnavox,

was not really not really fitted to Europe, so to say. So what did we do? I didn't do it alone, I had a very tough boss and all kinds of colleagues who knew everything better than I did, of course. What we did first, we organized a think tank,

as we called in those days, with the countries where the hardware and software was already distributed, via the distribution, organization of Phillips. So, the own Phillips organizations. I will come back later to that. That means that

we had to make marketing plans and industrial plans and software development plans at that moment 43 years ago now, something like that and I was still young and then we had discussions with the responsible

people of the national sales organizations and with all kinds of people who had some industrial or technological or development background the first thing was what was decided was to take back all the shit from the big countries where those

Odice consoles were already distributed and all those boxes, they were sent back to an organization in France because the television organization was quite big. Color television factories, black and white factories, black and white TV factories,

plenty of them in Europe. So by one reason or alone it was chosen to take France because there was an organization called La Radio Technique, that was a technical organizations, I think, They also supply to radio la or something like that. Yeah, I remember well.

The radio technique organization was headquarters was in Surin, in close to Boulogne-Biongour in Paris, Paris, with technical staff, technical staff digitally, technical staff for production preparation, and those kinds of things. And some industrial locations were allocated. I think it was Rambouillet, No Jandre Trou, and Le Mans. Those three cities, there were already factories where there was capacity to do the rework.

First, the rework, that was quite complex because the main problem were the joysticks. You have all kinds of plastic sheets in the joystick to make contact, to produce the contacts in there, I think it was eight directions or so. And in the enthusiasm and knowing that the production would not be anymore in Knoxville or in that neighborhood. The staff was a rather reluctant.

The factory would be closed, and they had put three or four of those plastic sheets instead of one in the joystakes, and then you have the McDonald's effect. If you buy one hamburger, you get in Holland 25 of those napkins. And those plastic sheets, they were disturbing, so you could not play the games. So we have reworked everything, and then also instructed,

the factory or the Radiola organization with the development group to have a better look technically in the chips and the technical performance of those sets. It was not because of a reason that also Radio Technique was chosen because at that moment the French government was introducing a telephone book within a very small screen so that all consumers, consumer marketing, could then have diet access via such a mode. them to find the telephone number of the auntie the in the south of France they would never visit them but anyhow then he had the telephone number now that was kind of a very modern activity in philips in that respect consumer electronics together with digital things

So in the meantime, if you have questions, it just interrupt me. Yeah, I was going to stop for a moment and have a ton introduce himself as well. Tom Yeah Okay, okay I was I was advertising manager for

the black and white group and as such I'm also responsible for for the video pack advertising

but that means responsible for the video pack advertising in the product division that is something

else than the advertising in the national sales organizations so we the first thing, what I did, especially when we got new video packs, all those beautiful drawings and so that was, yeah, let's say, handled by me. I had to find via an advertising

agency, people who could make these kind of drawings, and I did that, and I took care that all the right, how do you say that, films, etc., to print, because it was not digital at that moment went from Holland to France where the new cartridges were made. But that's one part. Other things we always made in Holland, let's say some kind of debauchess. But as Oscar explained, the national sales organizations were, in a lot of aspects, were very independent. So we produced them.

And then the Necessantzegro organization could say, okay, I want also 5,000 of these broachers. But the organization could also say, no, I don't like it, I'll make my own broacher. That was always a part of the fight, not really fight, but the discussions. And I was also responsible for a little bit afterwards, for color television and so on.

And there we made also commercials and for color television. For VideoPact, we have never made a central commercial that some national organizations did it on their own, but there was never a central commercial. What can I say more? That, yeah, we regularly Oscar and his colleagues organized, how do you say, sales conference?

of product conferences where all the national organizations from Europe were sending one or two people and also there I did often the presentations about

new cartridges and about brochures and things that they could get from Holland but then again it was always the question which countries will adopt adopted and which countries will not adopt it.

And there were a few countries which always used our stuff. And there were some countries which never used our stuff and said, we can do it far better than you can do it. They still think so. So it sounds to me that, you know, Phillips was not really directly involved with introducing this product to retailers and helping them with... Oh, yes, yes, yes. we yes we were in from 1980

1980 onwards okay because it sounded more like when I say Phillips I mean the head office and not like the regional country by country distribution arms yeah now that is we had a number of distribution models

one was the national organizations which a subset is then the national sales organization from the individual divisions the countries in Europe they all had an own national sales organization for television so also for a video park the only thing is that if you sell

millions, hundreds of millions the television set and you come with a new product where software is the moneymaker and not the hardware then you have different cultures and that took I think one or two years before that landed more or less in the heads of those people in the national sales organizations.

There we talk about national sales organization in Europe, but we had also, I had not so much to do with that at that moment, the International Overseas, it was called, where we, that was a group in Eindhoven, in Holland, and they exported to small country, South America. And then there was another organization also in the neighborhood of Eindhoven for Videopac, not only for videopac but also video pack was then sold and that was the direct export organization and they sold not to

smaller countries and the other side of the world outside Europe but they sold directly to agents in all kind of in countries where there was no Phillips organization itself that's when they

that is that needed a lot of commercial communication because otherwise every himself respecting manager would go in his own direction, so that it was a total transformation of the total company Phillips in the 80s and the 90s, which resulted in a better organization at the end of the 90s. But then at that moment, it was still, as we call it in Holland, Rattie 2.

Nevertheless, for Europe we had an certain moment, I think after half a year we had quite a good policy on what to do with VideoPack. If you allow me, then I go to the development aspects or not. Before we jump to that, I was curious. So you mentioned that you got this first shipment of product in from Knoxville and it didn't work really well. It was kind of defective. So once you had that sorted, what was sort of the level of interest within Phillips

for video games in general and the video pack itself? Do you remember? Quite high because at that moment, There was something awkward going on because Phillips at that moment sold pickups, pickups for the finil music and so. And the compact disc was in the works and the compact cassette was in the works, those kinds of things. We're always concentrating on hardware. And suddenly, in the end of the 70s, for example, Atari and Pome, they started by making money in an electrical, consumer electronics environment making money on software.

And in Phillips, that was only polygam, who is doing that, selling finial records? And so there was a high interest from the technology side and as well from the, how can we transform such an intervention to more selling of software? And in the Polararch model, make your money on some, not on the major hardware. Now, that takes a number of years to change that attitude and the change. is the way of thinking. So, yes, there was a high interest, only it took years and years, before that really embedded in all the organizations.

And that it was a natural, in fact, a natural process, especially because you were talking about low quantities in the beginning. And, yeah, you must imagine that you have to deal and motivate organizations who make hundreds of millions of turnover over profit on the sales of beautiful color television sets. us would cooperate in the same way for a couple of 10th of millions, tens of millions of turnover and video games. So that were two different aspects.

So yes, there was a high enthusiasm, especially with the younger people and the elder people with a more technological background, which was Phillips and at that moment, it was a bit on a distance. We had to talk our tongue out of our mouth to have them on our side. Is that an answer to your question? Yeah, I think so. Now, we had also a problem then how to continue with that after the repair of all those things. So we started, we asked radiotechnology to prepare the production of the consoles in Europe.

technical tricks to make a P-L-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-com really compatible and all those kinds of things and I don't know what the simple things and of course we had to start making more cartridges developing more cartridges because at that moment most of the cartridges came from or the ideas from the cartridges came from Knoxville but in the meantime in 78 named mentioned the word John Shuttleworth he always cooperated

with a software house somewhere in Sweden with the guy name what was the name of the guy was that

Intron Peter Inzer and assert in Christa Medin you know he was working in Sweden for a software house and they were

developing all kinds of games for a number of platforms as far as I remember and VideoPack was one of them And then when we started the operation in 1980 to transfer everything to Europe for the development thing and at least the management of the hardware and software development in Holland for Europe, not for America. Then we have asked Christian Medine to join our group in Eindhoven and to be kind of a software manager because he had the most experience in making games on a various number. of other platforms in those days. And then we started software development

and we started hardware development at the same time in 1980, in fact. That means if I go to the hardware that we have contracted Elcoma, electrical components and materials. Materials development, what is now NXP or something like that, to look into the technical aspects

from having those chips, in a more or less upcoming digital world for hardware. So there is a certain plan was made to not to stick with the G7,000, but with the Intel 8048 or something like that, and a video interface. And there's tube with small cartridges with 2K or 4K home, which you could use because then you had a very limited development capacity concerning building the software, the abulators and these kind of things.

That was one part. And the other part was, how did we get the nice new games? Now, that was, in fact, an open relationship with a number of software houses. Of course, there were discussions with the countries, what kind of software do you need? Now, I myself, together with a number of other number of people. We have organized all kinds of market research activities. What is a game? Why is a game interesting to play?

So we had contacted even board game manufacturers like Monopoly and those kind of things. I think it was called Jungmo or so. And they have taught us together with the consumer panels groups and the discussion groups which we had. Because for us it was new, what makes a game nice. And for the action games it was, yeah, we called it shooting bang bang. And that is not only shooting bang bang in a target, but also having an unexpected element in the game. Like my monopoly, you play and on a certain moment you can go to prison and those kinds of things when you have bad luck. Like Pac-Man, later on with the pills and the chewing persons were doing.

Unexpected moments, that was one. The second thing is how could we use it? That was strategy games. That was something new in those days. And then we had something intellectual games. That was the chess modules. later on only won the chess model and then we had also what we called

edutainment I have to recall 43 years ago and that was in kind of the cartridge with at ons or those kinds of things to teach people to children to teach them how to behave in traffic and or what do you have

oh yeah the piano the music cassettes that there are two examples of the categories of games. Now, then you need a different category of software houses to deal with. Either you can also program it yourself with a software group. Now, we erected, established a software group in Eindhoven, first under the leadership of Christian Medine, and then later on from a renovated software houses with people with a lot of European experience, Schutter or something like that was his name, and another guy spelled. Also an hobby that.

It was hardware, and he was also later on working on MS6, but we can come to that later. Now, so at that moment, we had open communication. In all the magazines from video games, they were said, if you have good ideas, let us know. We judged that on, is it funny, is it nice, is it good? Does it fit in a stupid small cartridges? Because it was a very limited system. Right. And so on.

So there was a lively life to judge at all. because hundreds of good and thousands of bad ideas came in and that was all filtered out and then put on the table as a good proposition to program yourself or to let them program houses do that or in the software house or it was hub in wind and never think about it anymore. So that is the way how we try to increase the number of interesting cartridges and Tom made every time I think there was something like 100 cartridges or so. I don't remember anymore. I think I left the group and there were 60 or 70 years.

Yeah, so I went about that. And I escaped to another country, to another country. That was the way how we did it. And in the meantime, there was a little, now a little, there was quite a lot of what we call them from our point of view, illegal activities. I have seen all kinds of cartridges coming up and e-proms coming up with all kinds of games. So there were a large number of people who knew how to program those e-proms with all kinds of funny things. And in some countries, I can remember that even cartridges with video park label were put on the market.

But they had never seen them. So that was very interesting. So that was a mishmash. And as I said, in that world, it was all new, like making records and pick up things. So you folks, if I'm understanding this correctly, they would submit game ideas. as to you folks in marketing and then you basically signed off on whether or not they would move ahead with those.

Is that fair to say? Yeah, that is fair to say. On the moment that everybody agreed that it was nice and funny and fitting into the four frameworks, so with action games, educational games, entertainment and so on.

As long as it fitted in that strategy and we also knew that in those games it's a very short product life cycle of an hit, like a record, like Michael Jackson. Was already there?

The moment, I don't know. You have a small hit for a couple of months, and then it's all over. So that's very sure life cycle of something that was selling in like hell. That was very short. You had also enormous risks in inventory if the life cycle was in the end of the product line. And then maybe you had to throw over 100,000 or 200,000 cartridges somewhere. So that although those aspects were all taken into account, So whether it fitted in the countries where you want to sell, of course, because all our national sales organization have very savvy managers, especially the younger ones, and they came with all kinds of deals for their particular country.

So you cannot say yes to everything, and you can also not say no to everything. So that was a mix of judging whether something could sell and could be produced and did fit in the machine. That is, I think, the answer to your question. So the national sales organizations, those were the ones who decided which games would be published in their particular country. Is that right? No, that is not 100%. We were responsible to choose the cartridges. That was a central affair on headquarters. But we had a very strong, very good communication structure with the regional managers who visited the countries every four to six weeks, a number of them. marketing managers we called them, and the input from the national organizations in Europe,

that was taken into account by making the decision tree for all the different models, different cartridges you were going to make. And in some countries, people were, like the UK, that was all space wars or something like that, space invader type of things, shooting, bang, bang, that was all good. And on a certain moment, all kinds of home computers came up, later on, the Sinclair's and the Commodores. So there was a shift going on,

and we monitored that shift very close. And the decision process was made in that way, because you could easily fall flat on your mouth when you had said yes to a certain cartridge or a certain game, and then halfway the development process, you came to the conclusion that very nice and all the technical people very enthusiastic, but you could not earn a penny on it.

So that was an, in fact, a managerial, a relatively okay process as I can remember. Okay. Thank you. Let me have a look because I have here. Oh, yeah, we have also, that was also an interesting aspect. That was also in Tons area. How do you do the visualization and how do you give the cartridges a name?

I remember Atari was very successful because they threw a lot of money to Mr. Spielberg for to buy the title E.T. For example. Now, we have once, we, that was some Phillips, most days, my boss, in fact, has then agreed on buying a title, I think it was Thunderbirds.

Thunderbirds. Thunderbirds in the UK. In the same way of thinking. I don't think the cartridge ever came on the market, but I can remember that was an issue, how you can deal with the joy to play the game, with also the marketing aspect if it is hanging in the in the in the in the in the in the in the in the in the reds but on also made for the retail after all the

countries and rag jobbing and those kinds of things that children would pursue their parents to buy a cartridge with a nice name on it and a nice visualization that was that was also that were also aspects where we're playing a big role of course in decision what to do how to visualize it and the whole package that should sell. And that was a monthly and sometimes a very big, big meeting with nearly 100 people on which way do we go. And to have also the commercial message in all those various countries, but the notice is in the same direction.

Yeah. Yeah, I know there was a TerraHawks licensed game that came out in Europe. And I was curious the approach for getting that. So that's interesting. Yeah, frankly speaking, I know I remember the name Tehrahawks, but I cannot remember anymore about the legal process from the name and so on us. I have no clue anymore. I am too old for that.

But I have seen Tehrahawks somewhere in one of the catalogs. Yeah, it was, and strategy games and so all after my time. The only thing was that now and then we had an legal clash, because Pac-Man was Pac-Man, and we had Munchkin, Munchkin. Yes. Yeah, that was a very interesting legal affair because in fact you could argue

that it was a straightforward copy of Pekman. And we had all kinds of lawyers who worked with whom we worked closely together because there was no, in fact, your prediction about software issues and the ownership of software. So you could argue if you would be our Atari we have we have invented the game the programmer could have argued he invented the game and then you say yeah but it was programmed in the Atari for example the Atari or the Mattel code and then we could argue for example yeah with our code in the G7000 was totally different so it is our the copyright on our code is the same and then you have a discussion about ambulators which no lawyer could ever understand and then then you had a later on the visualization and a number of pixels where you can clearly say

the Atari game, the Mattel game or whatever it is, has a different number of pixels on the screen and then video pack or an odyssey and then you had a visualization this tonne was doing how to market the whole thing and you had of course the name connected to it but it was a totally apart ownership of all kinds of names so those aspects I can remember that on the moment Phillips introduced Munchkin, everybody said it is exactly the same as Pac-Man, that busloads of lawyers were traveling and planes with lawyers were traveling between the

courthouses in the UK and Hamburg and all those kind of things. And I can, I must say the judges in those days were also not very well of the jurisprudential in copyrights and software because in one week one court could say Phillips is right and the other Intel is right

or Atari is right or something like that that makes that made the life very funny and interesting and interesting never a boring moment

so that was another interesting aspect I can also tell you if you want me to tell something about a chess game yeah I was very curious so I know that

there were several games that only came out in Europe and I know that was one of them and I know it required a whole hardware attachment just to run the chess game. So I was curious if you could speak to how that came together. Coincidentally,

I was the owner of the problem, so to say. I don't know whether you are ever sailing or surfing in the beach. Now, I was doing that somewhere in 1982 or so in the south of France. And I was laying on my

on the towel and besides me were sitting a man, he was also Dutch in the French environment having a holiday and he owned a software house in Amsterdam I cannot remember his name

I know his name but I cannot mention him and he had bought the license of a video game sorry a chess program package with an high E-low level which was done running on a

the Z-80 processor and it was sold he was selling it to I think it was called Tendi stores Tendi stores Tendi stores and I went to the Tendi stores we got nothing else to do

and with my hands in my pockets and I looked at the console, the Tendi TRS 80 it was and a keyboard and then I said myself played chess when I was young quite often. I was very interested in those kinds of things with the E-L

rating and then Big Blue, my ex-employer was also working on the Kasper of game thing, the chess game thing. So I said, how can we have such a program on our G7,000? So I rushed to Christo Medin, the software guru, and he said, now, I said, if you now throw away the keyboard of the TRS 80 and you throw away the tube, the picture tube of the TAS 80, what do you have done? Oh, yeah, just a printboard. I said, oh, that's interesting.

How can that printboard then talk to our G7,000? And then Christian Medina was thinking about it for two days, and he developed an interface. So we made a cartridge like the normal Odyssey cartridge, but the hardware didn't fit in that simple cartridge. And that was a complete TRS 80 inside. I say it in my words, huh? And then we packed that thing in a kind of rucksack.

and that was that do you see it I see the picture of it yeah no and then half a year later we had the prototype of the thing we made in the commission agreement with the guy from who

he bought the rights for the program we went again to La Radio Technique they were enthusiastic and half a year later they left already production lines France and I think it was less than a hundred thousand

but it was sky high consumer price and also there the development in chess computers came up handheld chess computers which you could use in your on your lap in the plane and those kind of things I had a number of them because I played chess every day but this was the

only solution to come to a chess computer and it was good for publicity and so on so that that is the whole history about the thing it was just in fact bought fiction 30 from somebody else and you put another piece of plastic around it

with an interface developed on in-house that is in fact the answer and you could ask a fortune for it in a retail price so every every chess member club would like to have such a thing for that price because the other computers were

thousands of dollars and these were only a couple of hundred or so something later I think it was 1983, 84, and I didn't even two 1523, I don't remember Um, so. Um, so. Speaking of hardware developments in Europe, who was doing the hardware development for devices that only came out in Europe, like the G7200, the one with the built-in screen or the G7400? And what role did marketing play in getting those together?

The first thing, when you introduced the normal G7,000 with the cartridges, every half year, IBM was announced every half a year. IBM was announced, I work at myself, every two months introduced a new platform or a new generation of computers, as did the consumer products do in those days as well.

So the first question is, how can you look in the future and how can you predict the prices of chips and what does that mean for the capacity of the game you can put in such a cartridge or in another medium? And then you start, of course, with the console.

And if the console is too limited in its computing capabilities, or the video chip with the video interface, I think it was called. I think that were the two things. The rest was a little bit power supply and a little bit printboards and so, and a little bit plastic and some joysticks. And so we developed a number of things by after torturing our brains, which was in fact sometimes easy, because sometimes easy come in a nice way. But the G7,000, we tried to upgrade the CPU. That was not possible. We tried to upgrade, I think it was the video interface. And that was called, I think, the G7,400.

And that was, yeah, that's the 200. 400. That was nothing else than a video phase interface interface, if I remember well. I cannot find it back after all those years to improve the graphics capabilities, I have to say. so that you could make better games and then in the meantime you have to use a CPU or an extension to the CPU

that you can also plug in bigger carties than only 4K at that moment 4K Rom it was or 4K EPOM and you would like to go to what is now in a USB stick but that was then dreaming about the future so with that question we went to

or where we were I was traveling every Thursday to from Eindhoven to Paris years and years with all kind of people people who really know how it worked, because I'm a commercial guy, not technical. But there were all kinds of meetings, and there was a triangle relation with the Elcoma division who developed the chips, the existing NXP, where all kinds of groups, I think 20, 30 people were working on those kinds of interfaces, not only for as customer inside Phillips,

but also for customers outside films and that is the way how I have to look back now in a number of papers I found in a very dusty roof thing in one moment

yeah there was a G7,000 the 7400 better graphics and then we had a plan for the 7400 add on that was in fact based on the chess cartridge principle that you then could add

because at that moment also IBM startup is a home computer or so that you have computing power also they can even do more than only shooting bang bang and so we were when we were walking around in in France in La Radio Technique they had that text that thing the telephone book and then we had an idea that was coincidence

can G7,000 not be fixed not be fitting in the plastic housing of that telephone book thing. And yes, with the black and white tube. That was that one, the G7200. That was then just the hardware, one-to-one plugged in the thing. So take out all the electronics, where that garbage from that thing. They had there on the market, and they sold tens of millions of pieces to the government

because they were behind that. And we took just a plastic casing. video pack cards could fit in it and then you were not because we also noticed from market research and just by talking to your customers of course that if you have kids in the house and you want to see the late news in the night with the kids in the living room and the kids the kids they pull out the coax cable and they would start playing the game and not good not good for your marriage and so so that was done in a certain And then we said, let's start with the black and white thing that was available, already, ready available in France.

And later on, if this is a success, put in a color tube picture. How do you call it? Color tube in it. That was it. So that was a nice thing. And then in the meantime, you have more space, physically, more space to change to new boards with new processors. Where we had to talk our tongue out of our mouth. That's something like compatibility is key in this business.

And in the television world, you had a new generation of television sets, color of black and white, based on a new technology, and then you put it in a new television sets, and then it was sold as an innovation. But there was no backwards compatibility, only that you had to be Paul, Seacom, or NTSC, and the rest was all the rest you could forget. Now, if you have an outstanding park of cartridges, then it doesn't work. So forward and backward compatibility, I can remember that was an hot issue,

in various meetings where people who did not really understand the business were having very nice discussions and then there was even an other project oh yeah there was the G-9000 and that never came

that has never been born yeah what was that I think I already left the group then that would be introduced in in 84 85 or at the end of 85 and that was a complete new thing but then were based on home computer technology.

Okay, because I remember reading some internal documents that went online some years ago about in the U.S., they were discussing an Odyssey 4 around that sort of time frame, and I'm wondering if that might have been the same piece of hardware. It could have been the same. I can remember that McNafox was doing all kinds of things on his own for the U.S. market, and spin-off to NTSC countries. Of course. Then there was a complete thought. The first of all, McNafox as a company, was less independent as when we started in 1980. So there was more and more involvement

via 42nd Street headquarters in New York of the Phillips Organization. A couple of people left the company, Knoxville, and so on. So there was a better cooperation. Maybe it was concluded, but I think I already left then, that if you go and want to develop this business, you have to have a worldwide view and not only in USA view or a European view or in South America view or something like that. development, and on the meantime, we also were investigating home computers, because they came up. Do you have more questions about video games as such? Yeah.

So I know the common narrative that today is that Europe was mostly interested in home computer games and not so much in these sort of TV games. how did that that's not that's not really true how did that bear out in your experience now the whole thing was that it started always shooting bang bang yeah space and then it developed and then on a certain moment you see the limitation to video games and then there were another number of companies and I'll mention some which I listed I think 40 years ago

that was Atari, Mattel, Coleco, and there were another number. I have to look in some papers. Yeah, at this moment that you are enthusiastically busy marketing, video pack, and all those models we just have mentioned with all the software hazards around it. We were investigating in 1983, Atari, Apple, Commodore, IBM, Sinclair, and ourselves, of course, as the main players, because that were the best candidates to start, because you had in Europe everywhere those Commodore 20

and Commodore 64 clubs where they made all kinds of games and then we said and they had much more capacity than our games G7,000 and so and then also Sinclair was busy introducing all kinds of games and all kind of software house

were diving into those kind of hardware solutions which were brought by the hardware industry to make a number of games as well And we came to the conclusion that in fact you had to make a split in marketing and product development for hardware as well as software in entertainment, educational, home computer, all kinds of things we are now doing, the home computer, and personal computing. Then maybe an overlap with small business, and then you went to the mainframes. That was the whole array of type of computers we could at that moment define 40 years ago.

and we said on a certain moment you can make fantastic games when you would use the existing technology from IBM or from all those of the Honeywells and so on then you could make magnificent games what is now in fact if I now walk on the Foucaustelling in Germany then I see visualized with all the kind of youngsters with long hair

then you see them playing all kind of nice games but in fact with a capacity but we thought in the 80s that would never be possible for consumer use. So that was a very healthy tension between what can you do and how do you develop your heart and software in the on those games. It was the conclusion was quickly made that you could not do that with the hardware type of video games. So we were going to, we, Phillips was going to investigate at home computers. Now that was a fantastic discussion and on set. Everything. Yeah. Yeah. You don't speak Dutch, but I was kicked out of a meeting

because I was not so agreeing with the MS-6th stories. On a certain moment, in a Phillips organization, a big organization, I worked for a number of large multinationals. And on the moment that the business is growing in billions of dollars, and a small business unit is suddenly, what we were running was hundreds of millions of dollars turnover, it was a very nice, very nice profit. and on a certain moment they put managers from abroad, not abroad,

and from other divisions in, because they know the business better. They say, now, on that moment, they bring in new managers, which have a lot of talents, but not the talent to analyze the video game business or the home of the business in detail. So that meant that on a certain moment, I think it was in the midst of 84, At that moment, new managers from Phillips have chosen for the MSX solution. I think it came from kiosera or something like that in Japan. Kiosera.

Something like that. At that moment, I started crying and I think indirectly I said here, I don't want to work anymore. It was not black and white, but I didn't see that at all because all kinds of typical things were happening. I said, yeah, what is it then with software compatibility? If you go to MS6, in which countries do you have MSX? Who is going to invest in software in MSX? Who would do without an hardware base without having...

But as far as I understand, in an ultimate attempt, they have tried to transfer with all kinds of software houses, the video game software from LDC and from the Atari-based platform, or from a Co-Co-based and the Mattel-based platforms. to make all kinds of games, one-to-one copy to a home computer, home computer environment, but later on it became a personal computer environment. Is that an answer to your question? I think so.

So I know that, jumping back a little bit to the G7,400, I know that there were plans to release that in the US as the Odyssey 3 and those never came to fruition. Do you know if those affected, or that failure affected the release plans for that hardware in Europe at all? As far as I know, I cannot I cannot remember that at all. I'm told that.

Sorry, it can be there was an old issue because we had closed down already in 1980 the production for Europe in Knoxville and then they started, I think they started, or they continued locally

with producing the Odyssey. They, and it was a guy called Staup or something like that, Mike Stout? Yeah, he came regularly over to Eindhoven. I had a nice meeting with him. He was still young and so, and lively.

And I think they did all kinds of things outside the scope of, I think outside our managerial scope. I think we knew what was happening, but we were concentrating on Europe and the organizations where Tom made all the material for, the international overseas group and the smaller distributor activities, which was quite a work. He worked as assholes for four years long, right? Five years long. But he still looks young.

And all I'm stepping into the twilight zone. This is a madhouse and fears like being blown. My weekends spend the moon and star. Where's a lot to go now that I've gone to fall? And oh my I'm stepping into twilight so home. This is a madhouse. I'd like to actually pick his brain a little bit I've always heard that the video pack did very well

for Phillips in South America particularly Brazil and I know there's some games that were only published in that region so any insight into how it was received down there and how well it did maybe Tom can answer that but I cannot remember that I have dealt with with South America itself, now and then some way that the straying

product manager or sales manager visited us in Eindhoven. I think there was an activity. I think that went. I have never been involved with South America. I knew they were selling games and maybe you made some also material for them. That was the idea. I don't think so. I don't think so. We made this specifically for Brazil. No, no. I cannot remember. Never. I think it was copycat maybe that Miami played, the free trade zone played the role in that. I strongly

suspect after 40 years that maybe Aldi say, was it also NTSC in Brazil? No, that somehow via Miami, consoles and cartridges ended up somewhere in South America. Okay.

And quite some quantities, I think. I think I have quantities in front of me. If you are interested in market shares in these kinds of things. Yeah, sure. I would be interested in knowing how the video pack did. I left Phillips more than 20 years ago. They cannot sue me anymore.

But it is my own my own scribblings from what I found back, but not so much. Oh, yeah, that's a good thing. So, 1982, the market in, we concentrated in the UK, Germany, France, Italy, in the Netherlands. That were the five countries were the most important for us and the rest was small. Sweden and Belgium and so, they all participated were small. Total market

in 83 was about just under 2 million pieces hardware. And we were running for the market share of 20, 25%. And the rest was more or less Atari and those kind of things. At that moment, we had

also beautiful tables because we had a very intense contact, we had that meeting-wise, but also financially. They earned a thirteenth minute on GFK, the Market Research Institute, who monitored retail sales, what the ratio was between the cartridges and the hardware. And that was monitored very precisely by GFK

for all the brands where we were active in it. And I have figures here in Europe, USA and overseas, overseas it was in South America I think but in we had a ratio it started with seven cartridges in 1980 per video game console and then it was in 1984 it was planned to go

to somewhere around 1.9, 1.10 to 9 or 10 cartridges and then per console sold console so the park and then we had a very nice curve hardware failure after five years or the joystick

ticks, it didn't work anymore, those kinds of things. But that was more or less what you could sell in that particular year on the outstanding park. That was interesting. So the numbers quickly went up in cartridges, and the number of consult quickly went up. And our main goal was, of course, like Atari did, Colaco did, and those kinds of guys, to take care that you had a high and very big part of harder consoles. We were then wondering what market share you could reach with a new generation of hardware and new generation of software.

And with the gray area, because the Sinclair's and the names I just mentioned, left and right as we are popped up. I've even been a member of the Dutch Home Computer Club, the HHC, but I only could speak with nerds, which were doing all kinds of. We were interested more in the electronic boards than the whole business model. So, but that was, I think, two or three years that more technical-oriented people were interested in those things than the real commercial guys. Nevertheless, everybody saw the enormous potential, which was there around the corner. I also have here, Phyllis and Magnafox together. Magnifics did not have such a high market share in 1982,

the USA, that was more Atari, by 75%. At that moment, in the USA, it was Magnuswax, Atari, Coleco, Mattel, if I have to believe my own remarks. And in Europe, it was mainly Phillips and Atari and a little bit Mattel. Mattel was just starting with a beautiful system. And they find pre-financed, I think, Barbie film this year. Home computers, that was a diversified picture. USA was far growing faster than Europe with the number of brands.

Apple, if you let me see, Atari, Commodore, Sinclair came up in the USA strongly, Tendi came in. And Texas, I think Texas instruments. Tendi. Oh, Texas. Texas. Texas. And then I think some Japanese toddlers came up with less than 2% market share. And in Europe, the Japanese were much stronger because they had.

I think in Europe they have better distribution structures, the Toshibas and the Solis and the Sanyos and so than I think in America, because there you have all kinds of other brands. And of course, that is interrelated concerning distribution. And if you don't have the distribution in your pocket, then you have also a problem. Because they have beautiful things, but you can't sell them. I would say. So that is, in fact, the transfer to home computers. And then I left, and you still work there, I think, Tom, for another three, four years? Yeah, but not four years, less than four years.

But it was MSX and that has hardly been a success. I don't think we did. That was a big disaster. Yeah, I don't know if you speak Dutch, Nix in Dutch, that is nothing. And I was once in a meeting and I said, MSX, that is Nix. And because of that alliteration, it cost me my bonus, I think. Yeah, you know, naming schemes when changing languages is always a bit of a struggle, isn't it? Yeah.

Hey, but M60, I can remember that there was, because then there was also in Phillips, another development, it was the P-2000. Remember that? I'm not familiar if you want to touch on that. there was an other division and there was a guy called dr krohn and he was then very young i think he passed away already and he had an own laboratory in the city of gelder off close to eindhoven and he was working but under the supervision of data systems and or a liaison or data system something like that, on a personal computer for educational purposes

with a very small cartridge in it, the mini cartridge, it was later on used for the telephone answering machines. No matter you had them with those ones at home. That was the data carrier for that machine. And that they were trying to sell to the fire the Phillips

data systems or sales organization in Holland to schools, colleges so that people could be familiar with computers and so on. I think because of the government interest, it was sold a little bit, but you could not play games on it, but it was a typical niche market education. Well, now every, if I look around here in the high school in my own village where I live now, all the kids from eight years onwards have an own laptop now. And then it was only the high school or pre-college or something like that, the pre-university. And that was also a total separate development where nobody could invent really

consumer applications for. That came two, three years later, while the real home computers were introduced, in fact. And let me have a look. I have more on my checklist. Yeah, shows and exhibitions. I cannot find back anymore, but you have also, together with the German organization. the Durban Organization was in those days enormously enthusiastic

and we had a very professional guy and Greg Gerard that was the name I don't know and he we had even a stand now if you would be on the CES it would be impressive

I think it was in an exhibition electronics exhibition in Hanover or something like that where he had built a kind of an A4G1 and kind of a futuristic booth with all kinds of nice ladies demonstrating the videopar games and so on. Also, those activities, they helped a lot in our marketing activities.

And Tom, you also made all the rag-jobbing things and so on. The display racks, which had to be multi-country applicable. So it's all kinds of slit-in things for the local language and the local cartridges that were done, but he already explained. Sometimes there were different kinds. Some cartons came not even on the market in some countries. We had one which was called Dam Busters. I don't know your history knowledge is about 1945.

That was the plane which dropped the bomb on the dam. I think that was not the most popular cartoons in Germany. I can't imagine why. so for commercial reasons maybe those were not always on this play but it was very, but it was very, very, very funny. But it was very, very funny. home computers your advertising things oh yeah we spent a fortune on tons departments department

it was in because we of course have turnover two-thirds and we have gross margin as we call it in europe and then you have selling expenses but if you sell radios or televisions or so you have very small percentage of your turnover in advertising but with us it was an enormous percentage I cannot mention the percentage. No, say I'm in a, yeah. Do you still have problems with lawyers from Phillips now? It was an enormous amount of money where from Tom developed that

from the central headquarters like I explained in the visualization and everything and all the counties could eat it or not eat it. Most countries after a couple of years were eating it. Yeah, most of the ones. Because otherwise you have different messages to your consumers and to your dealers, not to. And also those countries,

Those commercials should have all small made sense, should make sense for all countries involved. And not all countries have the same habits. I have been in small domestic places and coffee business, but I can tell you that Americans drink different coffee than the Italians or the French people. And the same is valid for consuming video games. Every region, every subgroup of people, hundreds of millions of people do something different. but you always made that material

and you had in your back pocket use some at least not directly to spend by you otherwise you have out of bigger house but the national sales organizations they spent enormous amounts of money where in the beginning the definition of the target group was so funny remember a ton in 1980 81

that we defined in the group, in our marketing group. Who should you, whose attention should you attract in a page-wide ad, color ad in the biggest newspaper in Holland or in Germany or in France or something like that? And then we came at that moment to the kids who were playing the shooting bang-bang games and the father and mother. So we call that the happy family. The happy family with two kids, one boy.

worry, one girl. And that was then the concept for, I think, three quarters over a year or so. Now, we have laughed our heads off to sell that thought and to sell the visualization and those kinds of things, but we had done in-depth research why that was at that moment the target room. That was not the guy sitting in the laboratory like the guys, we get, matrix games or so. And that was, of course, a total different message three years later that we started computing power to sell. So that was a very lively thing, and we have laughed our hassle years and years long.

Yeah, I think I am more or less at the end of my mini story. So it sounds like the video pack product line ended when you had these new executives come in that were more interested in the MSX and the computer line. and everything. So what did you folks go on to do after the VioPack party ended? That's a question. All my new bosses also asked and could never answer.

Tom, what did you? Yeah, I went to the overseas group. There was a special video overseas group in Eindhoven. and I became the advertising manager for that group. Only for games or for all the products? No, for all the products. It was in the video division, so it was for black and white, but not much black and white, mainly color television.

Because I've been to quite some countries also South America, etc. But it was all a lot of attention for the introduction of color television at that time. And that was also a lot of centralization. Again, same story. We tried to centralize it as much. So we had produced central in Eindover commercials, and they were used in the national sales organizations. But still, only a part.

It's the same as with feeling back. They had also their own commercials. But we had quite a good, or shall I say, strategy for introducing what were the main messages you had to get across for introducing the call of television and yeah it was in the time that 16 by 9 came up and so or not no before before before so yeah so long ago and then and after that color a St. Previvo. Oh, yeah.

And then afterwards, I went to a complete different department where I was mainly involved with sponsoring. Yeah. And that was a very, very nice time in Phillips. I know all the main football stadium in Europe. I've been to Olympic Games in Atlanta. Yeah, you visited me in Sydney. And Sydney.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. There was still the time that Phillips sponsored World Championship football and Olympic Games, etc. Swimming. That is over all. Yeah, Phillips is now a very small company

in comparison with those days. Yes, that was it. And now you've retired already since London. I retired in 99, so already 24 years. But that you can still remember this all. It's amazing, yeah. And for me, it was very simple.

I was then still young, I think I was 30 or 31, that I left Phillips. That I left video. Yeah, you went to see it for Phillips. In 1995, I went to sing in court for Phillips, regional office televisions, video recorders, for Asia Pacific, Australia and New Zealand. Done that for three years. Then I did consumer products in Thailand, locally, in a national sales organization,

which was the most beautiful three years of my life. Then I was punished to go to, not punished. I had the opportunity to go to in the mid-90s, early 90s to Switzerland for two years, where Phillips was in difficulties. We had to do some reorganizations, second brands out, and mergers of organizations, more than managerial work. not man's yield, organizational work, I should say.

Your cat is waking up. Yeah. He's saying, what a boring story, he thinks. And then I went five years to small domestic appliances for doing the same work as VideoPack, but then for household equipment, so regional energy Europe and Canada, by the way. Then I had the jackpot

they transferred me to Moscow where I lived for three years doing the business for domestic appliances, small domestic appliances and it was kicked out in the rubble crisis, out of the country by the way. And then three years in Sydney

where Tom visited meet during the Olympics domestic appliances and then Philips and me split in a not so nice atmosphere. And then I worked for two years as commercial director for

digital television with Thompson in London and Paris and later on in where was it? Oh yeah China, name it in a name a country on the production site and the sales for domestic appliances, small domestic appliances because the industry left to China it was not anymore available for Mullets and Teval and all these kinds of brands

Kenwood and the Longie all came from that factory and I had those contacts. It was nice, nice working there. And the last thing was Dubai for a Belkin and lynxys, if you know those names. I was there. They did reach as interim manager for living in Dubai. And then I went back to Holland and now I'm joining strawberries,

herring and what else? Beer. Beer. And sometimes hockey. sounds like a great time right there that was right well thank you very much

for talking with me is there anything you'd like to add no I would like to add if don't misinterpret me I didn't do that alone there were large numbers of people doing the real work so to say

I just and the moderator at this moment but I was the product manager but I reported to a very tough boss at that moment also very friendly but also We're all kinds of departments, the hardware department, the software department, the industry, the liaisons in the, because we spent millions and millions of dollars on developing the new video interface in-house, what they set in the Alcoma group, and it was not a big success.

So with overall, it was a very funny, interesting, business-wise, day and night working, But it's fairly funny life. I still miss it. A bit. A bit. Yeah. Yeah. under the name Retronauts.

This includes Blue Sky and, as of this recording, Twitter. This is a Patreon-supported show at patreon.com slash Retronauts. At the $3 level, you get each episode one week early and at a higher bit rate. And at the $5 level, you also get access to Friday bonus episodes, Diamond Fight's weekly columns, and the Retronauts Discord server. It's an absolutely stellar bargain, if I do say so myself. And as for me, you can find me on social media under Ubersaurus on Blue Sky and Twitter under Euberus at mastodon.com social on mastodon, and through my YouTube series Atari

Archive, where I delve into the history, in context of the Atari 2,600 library, in chronological order, with excursions into competing platforms and games, such as The Odyssey 2. I'm supported in that effort through my own Patreon, patreon.com slash Atari Archive, and through sales of my book, Atari Archive Volume 1, on sale through limited run games and Amazon. Thank you for listening. You're going to be able to be. Thank you.