Retronauts - 644: Bayonetta

Episode Date: October 14, 2024

Welcome to our fantasy zone! Stuart Gipp and Seumidh MacDonald get all hot under the collar about Bayonetta in a podcast both gracious and glorious. Retronauts is made possible by listener support through Patreon! Support the show to enjoy ad-free early access, better audio quality, and great exclusive content. Learn more at http://www.patreon.com/retronauts

This episode is brought to you by Cook Unity. This week in Retronauts, it's Bayonetta with Cheonetta. I enjoyed that. Hang on a minute. That's my line. You know, kind of joke, like pretending like I didn't tell you to, do it? I'm gunning for your position here.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I've got an actual gun, which says that you're not getting it. Hello, I'm Stuart Chip, and I'm actually hosting this episode, me, because I'm very tall, okay? And today's episode, we're joined by, hang on, dear, just a second.

I just need to look at my note. Shea May McDonald. Hello, Shea. Hello. Hello, Stu. How are you? I'm quite well, thank you. How are you doing on this fine podcast recording day? It is like 300 degrees outside, and I am full of Bolognese, so I'm in a good mood to do podcast. I think you've made a tremendous choice there on a very, very hot day to eat Bolognais. I can't fault that in any respect. I mean, the Italians do it, and those guys, they're absolutely crazy. They're out of their minds. You ever met a sane Italian? I certainly haven't.

But today's subject of today's episode Today's subject deals quite heavily with Italian and the Divine Comedy Yeah, yeah, yeah And Vigrid, which is in Italy, I believe Only Falls on Horses, that's the Divine Comedy, right? And very late, the angels did descend from Paradise And they said,

Stick our pony in your pocket Hey, Shay, I'm going to say something really funny now. Would you like to hear it? Yes, please. I would. Del Bojanetta. So far, so good. The subject of today's episode, as you may have gathered, is Bayonetta, the classic.

Is it character action? Is that what we call this? Character Action Series. A stylish action series. How's that? It's just an action game, I think. Yeah, but we're not talking about the series. is we might briefly talk about the sequels,

but we're mostly focusing on the first game today because that's the one that's actually retro. A Benetta 2 might be retro by now. I haven't actually checked. No, 2014, I believe. Arvin, it's retro next year. Okay, that's fine. It's 10-year rule with retro-in-old. Some people disagree with it, but they can all go to hell and burn. So, I guess

the best place to start with Bayonetta is to address the elephant in the room, which is we're two dudes talking about Bayonetta. It's going to be coming from a kind of dude's perspective, is that fair to say? Can I just share with you a little story about... Is this the story with your dad?

Because I love this story. It is. It is. This is a great one. Okay. So there was one time when I was a lad, I was playing bayonetta, and my dad walks into the room. Yeah. And he takes one look at the screen and he goes, oh, she's saucy.

And I go, yeah. And that was the only time I've ever bonded with my dad. I love it. Oh, that's a good story. I've heard it quite a few times and every time I love it, it just makes me really happy. It's one of Shea's peak anecdotes as far as I'm concerned. Along with that time, we were in Saintsbury's

and then we're doing the self-service checkout and at the end, I turned to the lady and tried to thank her before realizing that she hadn't actually done anything, so I said, I... You received no credit. I think a good blessing.

a good place to start would be well I would love to just hear all of your stories we have a podcast to produce and the reason I mentioned the fact that it's a sort of dude's perspective is because Bayonetta's got some stuff going on some kind of male gazey stuff

but in a sort of very subversive way and I just wanted to make it clear that we're aware that there's a discussion about this game to be had that we probably aren't the best people to have that discussion is that fair to say I have thoughts on this, but with the understanding that, of course, I am not, nor should I be like the end of the conversation there.

No, no, nobody is claiming to be the arbiter. I just wanted to put it out there that I'm very, very, because I'm a very progressive man, you know, I'm extremely progressive. And I just want everyone to know that I'm extremely progressive. I just want to, you know, get that out in front of there. I want people to praise me for it without having actually done anything. Like the checkout lady, that you, I want people to turn to me. I want them to go, I...

For Beonetta, it's, she is, well, very sexually provocative, isn't she? She's got a lot of, like, diminutrix coding in the design and in her actions. You know, high-heel, stilettos,

like, ridiculous proportions that emphasize the bottom in particular. And blah, blah, blah. The director, Hideki, come here. I'm pretty sure. it on the record of saying, just like, I spent a lot of time on her rear end. That wasn't, I think

that was the modeler. That was the model. That makes more sense. That makes more sense. Yeah. But I'd like to imagine that Camilla was there rubbing his legs like Vic Reeves at the time. This is so British this podcast. She was designed by a woman and so therefore, women, of course,

cannot do anything objectionable whatsoever. I'm a feminist. It's the same thing with Chanty. It's like, no, you're actually wrong. This character hasn't been over-sexualized because a lady done designed them. Okay, I'm going to actually go ahead and be sincere for a minute because I've just made a like, I'm a feminist joke and I worry it's going to come across poorly unless I clarify. We can always just cut it if you want.

Nah, like, well, this is a thing. I hope people kind of like understand that my perspective is absolutely fallible. But for me, what... Don't worry, Shay. Gamers are famous for coming at things with good faith. Oh, well, you know, that's a relief. Well, the thing that I always think of is I think of, like, the treatment of Samus and, like, Smash Brothers and Metroid Other M and how much that, like, skeeved me out. I didn't like that at all. But I never got, like, a dodgy vibe from Bayonetta. And I think the difference is that she owns her sexuality. You know, she's very in control of what she is doing and how she presents herself. That's all absolutely her. And it makes sense for her character as well. Whereas you have a character like Dan Taylor. from Devil May Cry, who embodies a lot of very masculine traits, you know, like stoicism and confidence and stuff like that.

Surfing on guitars and things. Yeah, Beonetta does the same thing, but it's more feminine traits she embodies. Now, of course, there is definitely a conversation to be had about hegemonic masculinity and emphasized femininity and, like, how society imposes those values on people. But I think if you are a fella or a woman, just whoever you are, if that's, how you want to present yourself and you like, if that's where you present yourself because that's how you want to do it, you absolutely should. Yeah. And that's why

I never really got, like, obviously it is very fan servicey. It's very sexually provocative. Yeah, of course. Yeah. We'll get into that as well. I understand that turning people away, but I didn't get, it didn't make me uncomfortable. It turned me away

for a while because for me personally, and I'm going to out myself now a bit, but I'll and counter it with my with some other opinions for me sex and video games go together very poorly um it's yeah they do i i do not feel okay i do not feel i do not like it when a video game has like tries to be sexual or tries to like turn you on you know i dislike that or i dislike it as part of any kind of narrative there's a sex scene in wolfenstein that makes me cringe in The New Colossus.

Anytime anything like that happens, I'm just kind of like, oh, Christ. Now, say Bayanetta for a long time. I didn't like it. That is, I mean, it's not that I'm prudish. I don't know what it is. It's specifically with video games. I just kind of get like, oh, please stop.

Please don't bring these worlds together. I've had weird experience. The most recent thing about where sex and video games have met is Baldersgate 3, which is a game that I'm interested in but so much of the conversation surrounding it has been oh my god this guy has sex with a bear in the trailer isn't that wacky

oh my god you can customize your genitals isn't that wacky it's like it's juvenileia that's the thing it's it's like I don't even know how to describe it I've been playing Baldesgate 3 and I just want to say it's fucking great like I really love it

I've never got into one and two the originals because of the Barrett entry being they're very dry. Yes. Boulder Skate 3, though, is just like kind of consolized but without compromising the amount of options that you can do, which I love.

I think it's great, basically. I'm not going to review Balderskate 3. That's not what I'm here for, but it's a great game. And everyone in it is just like absurdly horny. Like, anything you say to someone that's not like, go fuck yourself, I hate you. Like, they seem to take as kind of like a, let's go, let's go, let's fuck right now.

and it's weird man it's really unusual because it's sort of as if a platonic relationship is almost impossible I'm sure it's not I'm sure there are options that I'm missing I'm not going to paint the game this way but that's kind of my experience with it

is that it just seems like maybe they'd turn the horny up like a mite too much you know but Bayonetta I mean the relevance to Bayonetta really is the distinction between the juvenile kind of approach to sex in games and the also juvenile but yet committed, like very in-character commitment sort of thing.

Yes, absolutely. With Bionetta, I know these are very different, and I always bring up this game, but with Bionetta, what I ultimately sort of came to understand is that Bionetta is never under someone else's thumb in that game. She is never being criticized for the way

that she is. She's never being held down. She's never... The freak. No one is the freak. You know, I mean, she's a freak, but you know what I mean. Like, she's never, like, ostracized because of the way she is. Nobody really

passes comment on it outside of, you know, what's that guy's name? Luca, is that his name? Being just like, yeah, but that's, you know, the way that he is. Yeah, he's kind of, like, he's a womanizer, like, in general. Yeah. Yeah, but I guess it's difficult to make the point I'm trying to make,

but you know what I mean, it's the confidence. It's very sincere. It's very sincere. It's not like... It's like empowering. It's... Or not empowering. Sorry, it's... She is empowered. Yeah, yeah. There is a sense of sort of agency about the character in the cutscenes. When I compare it to something else that people say this about,

which would be, I guess, sort of Shantay again. Oh, Shanty... I don't get that vibe from Shanty. I think Shanty is a very cheesecakey kind of. of a series. There is a moment that you and I have discussed before, Stu, where the girls

all get enslaved and then put in like the slave layer bikinis and stuff and it's all against their world. Yeah, they made special sprites. They made special art for them, including the 3D bubs. I've talked about the 3Dubs quite recently actually on this month in retronauts, I think. I think

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50% off your first week. That's 50% off your first week by using code retro or going to cookunity.com slash retro. So bayonetta Now we wanted to talk about bayonetta I want to leave some scope for like the possibility of other people also talking about bayonetta So I want this to be almost a kind of a personal

Sort of bayonetta thing Obviously it's going to be personal We're relating our own experiences But a good place to start 15 minutes since the fucking episode Would be not that we've described we've said already but um what was your experience with with bernetta like how did you discover bernetta how did you feel playing through it the first time and like how does it relate to you like what's your experience with bernetta so what it was was it was january 2010 and it was i was on

a forum and i'd seen a couple of little things about a new sega game it was it was a sonic forum because i am a well-adjusted adult um a couple of posts about a new sega game and people were saying the demo was very good and so that I heard the name and it was like alright okay you know cool and we went and it was me and a pal went into town to buy Batman Arkham Asylum

because that was also out around the same time so we went in and we bought the bees we bought Batman and then we saw bayonetta sitting next to it on the shelf and both of us we each bought a copy or like there's Bayonetta as well so we pulled that out I had a look and I was like, oh, you know what?

Yeah, I'll give it a goal. And this is out of sort of Sega fandom plus good reviews, good, like, yeah, yeah, like apparently I'd heard, one of the first thing I heard that it was that it had got a 40 out of 40 from Famitsu, which was a very, very

rare as well, yeah, or it used to be. And also, my friend had played a game that he that he really enjoyed called Bullet Witch. Your friend enjoyed Bullet Witch? Yes. That's quite alarming. well um it's a terrible game show i've not played it myself i i you know but he likes what he likes

and i respect it and i mean who might is who might a judge and so we bought it you know oh hey this looks a bit like bullet witch and i was like oh hey this looks like it's by sega so we both bought it and i took it home and i see this yeah this was the 360 and we got the best version as well nice yeah we expected to play it for a wee bit and then move on to batman because that was kind of like the big focus you know we're both really looking forward to ark and asylum them. I sat down with it and I started playing and I was like, oh, ha ha, like, you know,

the top button is punch and the right button is kick. Yeah. That's good. You know, I've not seen that since Vautiful Joe. Carried on. Oh, wait, hang on, you've got time manipulation powers. This is very like Beautiful Joe. And then I got to the end of the first fight and it graded me on my

time combo and damage. And I'm like, this is just Beautiful Joe. This is like, this is by this, like, I looked it up. Yeah, it's by the same guy that did Beautiful Joe. And I loved Beautiful Joe when I was a kid. And I was in. I was all in.

I absolutely, I played through it. It was a blast. I adored it from start to finish. Now, very unfortunately, my first experience with Bayanetta after sort of ignoring it for a long time, because at the time, I didn't like those kind of games. I was in the mood at the time, which was a very widespread infection among the gaming community where you would reject anything that wasn't rainbow-colored. I was at that time extremely snobbish about video games.

I still am quite snobbish, but in a way that sort of benefits them in a way. But we'll get to that maybe. And I wouldn't play Bernetta because it was just like, no, I'm not playing that. Everyone's raving about it. I'm not playing it. I don't like games that grade you. I don't like games that are all about look how cool I am. I don't like sex in video games.

This is uncomfortable. I don't want to play this game. So I ignored it for a long, long time. And then one day when I had, and this is very unfortunate, I bought it on sale on PS3. Because it's very cheap on PS3. And I played it. And on the PS3, it runs just like so poorly.

It does, yeah. It's, we're talking like sub 30 frames per second here. It's awful. It's like, I don't even know why they bother. of releasing it. It's completely unacceptable to me. It's like worse than Ratchet and Clank Nexus but

so obviously I didn't persevere with it, you know, I dropped it and it didn't help that I found the cut scenes just like grating with that little annoying like New Yorker guy whose name I've forgotten. Oh man, you didn't like Enzo?

Well, it's just this annoying stereotype wasn't he? It's just the kind of, oh geez, can you believe this happened to me kind of guy and I was just like oh boy but you know I'm walking down the street with bayonetta and then what happens I fall down a motherfucking storm drain can you believe that shit that was very close to your boss baby voice yeah actually it was quite close to the bus baby voice yeah but um this is just at the time this is at the time okay this is this is my mood about this game at the time it does not reflect my current mood now I hear online that the uh PS3 version is

it's hot garbage. So I think, okay, this is a very acclaimed, very acclaimed video game. I should consider getting it on 360 because it's very cheap anyway. And, you know, that's probably the intended experience, 60 frames per second, you know. So I got it for 360, very cheap, played it a bit more. And I'm like, every time I would finish a fight that seemed very difficult, and then the game would give me the, oh, crap, I fell on my ass, like, Stone's. Award trophy or whatever it is And I was just like I really can't be

Doing with this like I really don't Like this kind of game Like I just don't enjoy being graded I really hate it It bums me out So I again I sort of put it away Now a little bit later down the line This is exposing me of how much money

I friggin waste on video games The second game came out And when it came out They also ported the original game to the Wii U. And by all accounts, it was the best version at the time. And I was like, everyone's hyped for Beneta 2. The Benetta 1 and 2 pack in C-EX was quite cheap.

Screw it. Let's try this again, because it's, again, it's a very acclaimed game. Now, when a game is that acclaimed and that beloved, I can't let it go. Like, I have to keep persevering with it until I feel satisfied that I've given it the old college try. And sometimes I come out of that and I think, yeah, I don't like it. Like with Jet Set Radio, unfortunately, I really did try and I didn't like it in the end. but it took me like 10 years to figure that out and Benetta is the same

so I played it on the Wii U and I'm getting my ass handed to me constantly I make it through the game eventually to the point where you fight God what are they called gracious and glorious Yeah It's quite early in the game

still but you fight those two guys And it's rough Oh they are bastards I'm having a rough time with it But I did it And that was the point where I was like oh okay i like this now i like this now that the game has just shown me its hand yeah and now i actually like it because i'm actually getting focused on my dodging i'm figuring this out so i unfortunately

i only got to like stage seven which is fairly far into the game and then i dropped i dropped it again for whatever reason i never went back to it i never even put the b02 disc in complete waste of money uh traded it in that time again i ended up getting on pc with vanquish for like four pounds or something didn't really bother trying it now I get to the final point now I have bought now every single version of this game I don't like that has ever been released because this is me, this is the Jip experience

and I ended up on the switch thing a bit of a loss and I was like oh Bionetta 1 and 2 is on sale on the switch Oh my God I think you've bought this game more than I have I have, I probably have yeah I want to give this a goal on the switch the switch is the

perfect form factor for me to play games basically I can play out on the TV I can play it and hand on I love the Switch. I grew to love that thing. So I'm like, right, this is it. I'm beating Bernetta 1. I don't care. I'm going to get my head down.

I'm going to keep playing this game until I finish it. I'm not going to play anything else on the Switch until I beat it. And I absolutely brute force my way through the game because I didn't know you could, A, change weapons. I didn't know about pressing punch, kick punch, punch. I didn't have to do wicked weaves at all. I completely blanked all of it. I finally figured it out right near the end of the game on that level where you go through bits

of old levels floating in a void. Yeah, yeah. That's when I finally figured out how to do punch, kick, punch, punch, punch, that sort of stuff. And I realized, oh, I'm doing loads more damage and this whole game would have been quite a lot easier if I'd known about this.

Right, okay, yeah. Like, I, for the longest time, you know those boxes that you have to break by doing a full combo on them? Yeah. I would hit them, they wouldn't break, and I would just go, well, that's nothing. And I ignored them for eight stages.

Oh, my God. And then finally, I figure out I go back, I'm powered. up, you know, obviously. I've figured out, I'm using the sword now, because I wasn't doing that at all. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, I now understand this game after all these years, I should have simply been paying attention. So I do you feel like the game doesn't really draw enough attention to that stuff, in my opinion. This is genuinely one of my favourite games ever.

Yeah. Well, let me real quick. wrap-up. Real quick. Of course. The point is, it took me until the switch version to finish Bairnetta 1, and I now like Bairnetta. And then I immediately started two, and I liked it even better, but we're not talking about that.

Bairnetta 2, for me, feels like what I wanted Bairnetta 1 to be, which is a much more frictionless experience. Yeah. But I'm not going to say it's better, because I can see it's been dumbed down, and that's not for some people. But Bairneter 1, the point is, I ended up liking it. I like the level design, apart from some bits, but you know what? You talk, because I've been talking about it.

like a thousand hours now. Well, this is the, this is the main thing about Bayonetta that I have, it's one of my favourite games ever. Yeah. But I have two big problems with it. Number one is I find

the pure platinum requirements unbelievably stringent. Your platinum being the best medal you can get in each encounter. You're graded from stone. Oh, jeez, I fell on my... Sorry. stone to bronze silver gold platinum

on your time your combo and how much damage you've taken and the only way to get platinum in damage is to not take a hit whatsoever and that is tough that is absolutely like to because the levels are fairly long and the enemies are vicious to not take a single hit

and an entire level is a ridiculously tall and not to mention that some of the encounters are actually hidden as well and require extensive backtracking. Yeah, there's a lot of like, there's a lot of hidden stuff. There's a lot of, if you wanted to master this game,

you will be playing for thousands of hours, I think. And I've gotten half decent at it, but I've never gotten to that point with it. But the other problem, although I'm not, actually, I'm not even sure if I think this is a problem. I kind of like how obstinate this is, but yes, the game, either way,

the game does not explain anything to you. it took me a long time to learn like specifically what wicked weaves do which is almost like they bank your combo like if you if you don't use wicked weaves every so often like your combo starts deteriorating right and and i believe they increase the combo multiplier whereas like just doing regular hits increase the the other number and there's also the whole thing of like um i'm going to simplify this punch When you punch, if you hold punch, you'll start firing your guns. Dodge offset, which means that if you then dodge and resume by pressing kick, your combo won't break. Is that right? That's correct. But we have to alternate between punch, kick, kick, punch for it to continue. Is that right?

Well, no. You can't go from punch to punch. You can, yes. Oh, you can. Like, there's combos like punch, punch, punch, kick, punch will knock them up into the air. Yeah. Whereas like punch, punch, punch, punch, punch, kick, kick, kick, kick will do like a barrage. and stuff

right, the thing is is that the very the first time you play a bayonetta the main gimmick is witch time you know you press R2

at the last second to dodge out with the way of an enemy's attack and you get like three to five seconds of suspended time where you can just wail on them

in the early to midgame it's like you need it like it's essential it's very satisfying and it's like it's a great mechanic I think but that's not

the bread in butter of Bayonetta's mechanics. No. What you're supposed to do is hold the button to keep firing the weapon and then if you get attacked during that, so like if you have a combo that is, let's say, a punch, kick punch. If you press and hold the first punch and an enemy attacks you, if you keep holding the button and tap the dodge button to dodge out the way of that attack, you can then resume the combo. You don't have to start a whole new combo. It won't break the combo, basically.

And that's why all of Bayonetta's attacks have like a hold function to them. It's so you can do that. And that's called Dodge Offsetting. And that is Bayonetta's entire combo system. And it never explains it to you.

It never once tells you, hey, here's the basics of playing this game. It hides it away in a wee menu somewhere for you to go and find. I'm a big fan of a deck of Kimia's games exactly because of shit like that. It's just like, I'm not

going to explain it to you. You just have to figure it out for your... I mean, I just liked, I mean, it's because I know I'm to blame for not properly paying attention most likely, but I did like the fact that once I reached the point of like, oh, oh, oh, like, I could, that was then going back to the earlier

levels and I was like absolutely crushing them, like, getting the items I'd missed, exploring the levels and being like, oh, there's loads of stuff hidden in these levels like loads of items like just make you absurdly stronger loads more health loads more focus or whatever it's called magic

power and I'm going to say this and then I'm not going to talk about this again because I will alter the entire podcast it's why I adore the wonderful 101 because that which is like Hedeca Camilla's next game after Bayonetta it is just that it is like

Bayonetta turned up to a living in terms of everything seems so weird and random and use and then the puzzle pieces start snapping together and like there is a bit where you're like you've got so many like shoot them up segments in that action game

and it was I was thinking this is awful like there's things raining down from above how the hell you're supposed to dodge that and then I realized oh my God you can do you can raise the hammer you can do the same thing you do in in the action stage part by switching to the hammer and you hold it above your head and it protects you from above.

umbrella. Yeah, exactly. And like, it's filled with like little bits like that where a bit of like lateral thinking, lateral thinking. Yeah, like a wee bit of context applied and you will realize a whole new way to play the game. It's Beneta's great

at that and I really like it. Yeah, it grew me a lot over the time I spent on the switch version. I've got to say, though, not wanting to be negative, but I thought I'd get this out of the way. I think any time you're not doing

bernetta stuff, the game is on its ass. Like, I really don't like the mini-games, like the flight and the motorbike and all that crap. Like, that really doesn't work for me.

It's not just the fact that, like, I mean, there's two things I dislike the most about the game, and I don't think they're particularly defensible outside of, like, they're fun,

which is fair enough, you know. But it's that, plus the QTEs that kill you if you fail them. Right. Because there are boss fights that end with them. And on the Switch,

it's actually quite hard to see what you're supposed to do if you're playing on handheld, I think. Once you know them, even then the timing sometimes feels a bit finicky. The timing is unbelievably restrictive and in a game where you are being graded to lose a perfect run or a great grade to one of those QTEs

is unbelievably frustrating. Well, I've had like runs where I've been playing the game and I've been doing fine and then I've died on the same QTE, not even joking, like five times. times because the input was so fussy. Yes. And it's just so the shadow remains cast and like, shut the fuck. What they should replace that with is,

oh, I fell on my ass. I fell at my asshole. Oh, my asshole. Yeah, I think that the first game falters in its QTE stuff, which is very of its time. Yes. And it doesn't bring the game to a stop, but it does, for me, create this sense of kind of like this, this could have been better. this would be a better game without these QTEs or at least to make them like a lot easier. Yes. Yeah. I agree.

Because there were times when I get surprised by one and I'd be like, oh, I thought it was a cutscene. But also the mini games that are homages to Space Harrier and to hang on. Yes. They don't work for me because I mean, the homages are fine but they just go on and they're

not easy. Like the hang on one, you can die quite easily. And it's not, you don't. want to die in that game by going over an instant death pit in your fucking motorbike. Well, to me, it is, I don't have, I don't have a particularly logical defense of them. It's just, once again, I just really like that it's just kind of a bit of a fuck you. I'm doing what I want. I really like afterburners, so we're adding like the music in there.

I do respect the frivolousness of it. And I don't want to say, like, this is, I feel like it's almost foolish, like, criticizing it in terms of how I think it should be, because it's so clearly a work of sort of an alter, you know, it's just extremely singular vision, you can just tell. So I feel a bit, I wish criticizing it, but at the same time, it's frustrating as a player, I think. It's, well, it's funny, because, like, I really like it, like, from that person. perspective. I really like that he, Camilla, does just kind of seem to do what he wants. I would love to see more of that. We need more

of that. We do. Absolutely, yeah. But at the same time, it does also mean that it doesn't always work. I think your complaint about them going on too long? Absolutely. There is one level in that game that I absolutely love and respect because it's so energized.

It's like you can tell that they were having so much fun making this. but playing it is a bit of a nightmare and that is Route 66 because... Yeah, remember that one, yeah. Because, like, you have... What you have is you have one fight

against, like, on harder difficulties, it's three joys, which is already a tall order. The joys are the ones that are introduced by laying back and essentially masturbating, aren't they? Oh, yeah, that's one. Yeah, it's astonishing.

They're, like, the... And of course, you kill them by putting them on like a horse and doing bondage on them. And then the camera zooms in on their jiggling breasts. It's incredibly empowering. Like I said. No, but yeah, they're the ones that imitate Bayonetta. Yeah.

And can I just say, I love that. I love it when games, like, find a way to repurpose animations and models and stuff. And just, like, they've got a whole new enemy out of that by mainly reusing Bayonetta's assets. Yeah. But, yeah, you fight three of them on a busy motorway. And you cannot keep all three of them on screen at the same time. Oh, my God, you should jump. You should stay in the air as much as I figured it out.

I'm going to go and play Bayonetta after this. I'm going to rinse that. Anyway, after that, you have like a 15-minute motorbike segment. And it's cool. It's like, it's got like the music from Afterburner starts playing. Yeah. You know, and Bayonetta does this cool thing where she like sticks her middle finger into the key, into the ignition of the bike and rotates it.

it to turn it on. And I think it's cool. I think it's exciting. But I also think it's like, playing it is, it doesn't have enough going on to really justify 15 minutes of that, you know? And like 15 minutes, if you're playing it well, if you're crashing, if you're dying, if you've got like, like, if you're having a bit of trouble with it, it goes on much longer. And there's no way to skip it. There's no out. There's no, like, you just have to put. through this completely different game that you may not, well, that is nowhere near as interesting as the game you've been playing up until this point. Yeah. And then afterwards, it hits you with another incredibly tough fight where I believe you can't go into slow motion, although I could be wrong about that. And it does tax. It does great. Well, I mean, I think it's fair to say that it's uneven as an experience in general. I mean, I loved it. I mean, I would probably give it like a high eight, which for me is really high. But that's with, and considering how much those sections bothered me, that's actually

surprisingly, like, the rest of the stuff really makes up for it. But there is one other thing I didn't enjoy in this game, and that's something that they solved in, too, which is, I feel like the boss battles with giant enemies are also quite muddy and unclear and take a long, long time. On replays, not so bad. You know what you're doing? Yeah, absolutely. Like, yeah.

But I was always happiest when I was dueling against, like, Gene, is that I mean? John, John. That was when I thought this game was at his absolute peak. When you're dueling another enemy of your size or multiple enemies of your size, and that's most of the game. So, yeah. When I say of your size, I don't, not all of them, I mean, there are the huge angels as well. But I mean, like, the water boss, you know, that one that takes like 40 minutes to kill.

Yeah, it's, well, this is a thing on repeat. play-throughs, and they are the most replay-friendly bits of the game, because the boss levels are just the boss, and that's it. Yeah, yeah. Like, I will say, I do think a lot of the levels in this game maybe do just go on very long. It's something that I really appreciated about the first Devil May Cry is that, like, I have been kind of on and off doing S-ranked Dante Must Die on the original Devil May Cry. Yeah. And I can do that, because number one, if I take a hit, it isn't. automatically a run killer and number two, the levels are like five minutes tops. Well, the Devil May Cry, same director, of course, Hodecky now Devil May Cry

is like, it's like cake. Like, I don't even know how to describe that game. It's just, it's like eating a very small cake. It's incredibly satisfying and delicious. That's all I got. That is seriously all I got. I love Devil May Cry One. I think it's more or less flawless. I think

it's brilliant. I love that game. I have no no no notes basically i like all of it even the stuff people don't like that the first person swimming it's fine oh no the first person swimming works great in that game i thought it's awesome yeah i agree yeah like it sounds horrendous like i said first person swimming and like i can practically hear the listeners like turning away and vomiting you know but it i swear to you it's fine it works I'm going to be able to be. I'm going to be. The banionette is a kind of an end of my crime of my cry in a sense.

It's full 3D, obviously. If you don't mind me doing, I kind of have like a bit of a more kind of in-depth thing about Bayonetta and Devil May Cry. Well, yeah, well, and now's the time for to hear it, I think. Well, I know a lot of Devil May Cry fans, and I am one myself. I love Devil May Cry. And I love Hideyaki-Itsuno's version, which is 3, 4, and 5. Right.

But the thing about those games is what they allow you to do, what their focus is, is in allowing you to construct your own combos. Like, you don't have to have a dodge offset because each move that you can perform is a single move. Like, there are some that are multi-hits or whatever, but like most of the time it's very simple inputs. Like you've got triangle, then you've got forward and triangle, then you've got backward in triangle.

And those will represent three different moves with a particular weapon. So it's like the subway of course, combos, you can completely make up your own stuff as you go. Then you get real sick. Yeah, I was thinking I don't like that subway of combos thing, but it's too late to take it back now. There's no way of removing it. No, no. And the thing is, I like that in theory more than Bayonetta's solution, which is, because

in Bayonetta, of course, because of like Dodge Offset and everything, you need to have what are called like dial combos, which is like dialing on a full. You just have to put in the correct input in sequence in order to produce a different combo. Yeah, and of course, every loading screen you're allowed to practice these. And they tell you what they are, obviously. Worth noting. And the thing is, in principle, I much prefer Devil May Cry solution. But there's so much about Bayonetta that just make it, like, more fun to play for me.

Well, I mean, in a perverse sort of way, it is more accessible, right? Like, I mean, Devil May Cry after one and two, which doesn't exist, is a game that I sort of respect from afar because I know there's a skill ceiling that I'll never, like, there's no skill ceiling. You know what I mean? It's just constant improvement that I'm never going to get to that point. I'm never going to be good at that game because I just don't have the bones for it. I don't understand it. Devil May Cry 4, we're playing as narrow with his thing he can rev up or whatever.

I don't even know what's going on. Like, I haven't got a clue. Number five, I mean, I could play, I don't know I'm invoking the evil unholy game here, but DMC Devil May Cry obviously is a lot more restrictive, and it's actually more like Bayonetta, I would say. DMC, DMC, oh, I would love to talk with you about that at some stage. I mean, we will at some point. That's the US remake, well, not remake, reboot of Devil May Cry in case anyone didn't figure it out.

Very, very controversial. It's interesting, because it does have a lot of the same bones as Devil Make cry. It's, like, it's, I really don't like that game, but I like its combat system. I'm your prime date, you sack of shit. Fuck you. Some of the funniest lines in the history of, I don't even care. Like, I'm not even being ironic. That is funny to me.

Oh, the fuck are you. I'm your prom dead, you ugly sack of shit. I love that line. Listen, great, we're not going to get into that, because I've got a whole spiel I could do about that. But, going on the thing is that once again

I do like devil may cry's combat in principle a lot more like because one of the things As a series you mean like up to fight five yeah yeah like devil may cry five in particular like in principle I like its combat a lot more because number one it's easier to learn you just do an input and your character does that

and you go oh okay that does that And so long as you can memorize that and experiment with it to find a particular application for it, you're off to the races. You know, it's deceptively very, very simple. Like, I mean, for example, if you want like a unique cutscene in Devil May Cry, there's a bit where Artemis, one of the first bosses in Devil May Cry 5 launches at you, like she like kind of like revs up and like streaks across the screen. And if you can time it correctly and you tap the grab button, nearer will grab her suplexer, stick a sword down our throat, and then, like, rev it up.

And if you tap the rev button while he's doing that, you do extra damage. And if you, sorry, minor spoiler for Devil May Cry 5 here, if you enter devil

trigger while you're doing that, you do even more damage and you throw psychic spikes at her. You know, it's very modular. It's like, it's, you really are building your combos.

Whereas in Bayanetta, if you want to do something like that, it will be a cut scene. Like, an enemy will attack. You have to press X and A as a quick time of... Sorry, I'm thinking of switch controls here. You'll have to press Y and B as a

as a quick time response and then hammer a button. And that's less satisfying. Yeah. But the thing is... The punishment attacks are all like you match a button. Yes. You just like hammer the button. Like it's not very complex.

You know, there's not much creativity there. Yeah. But it's just the pacing of it, the structure of it, the enemy variety. Bayonetta's design. The thing is, like, I get why a lot of hardcore action game aficionado's preferred devil may cry.

Yeah. But for me, it's, like, number one is I see why you need the kind of dial combos. I see why they have to be in there for dodging to have its purpose. But number two, like, for example, in Bayonetta,

there's an enemy all the way across the screen you want to reach them as quickly as possible. Yeah. You double tap R1 and you do the umbrain spear which you turn into a crow you shoot across the screen and you're right on top of them right and devil may cry if you want to teleport to the nearest enemy as Dante you have to tap up in the D pad and then hold R1 forward and press circle the stinger is that no no that's um R1 at the attack button and forward right right it's so you need to like it for example in Benetta if you wanted to cross

the screen and then start a combo in the air, you have to double tap R1 and then just start pressing the combo. Yeah. In Devil May Cry, you have to up forward R1 and circle to use Trickster to go up to

them, and then you have to tap right on the D-pad to change to the Swordmaster style in order to combo in the air and not just immediately send them downwards. So you have to press up in the D-pad, forward R1 circle, right on the d-pad and then start hitting circle to combo. And that's, that's, like, fiddly.

That's not me in the game, like, really thinking through, like, my strategy. Like, the controller is not invisible there. Yeah, there's a definite, like, I mean, you know, there's probably some people listening to this going like, that's no you have to do that. You can do this absurdly complex thing instead. Well, yes, absolutely. Like I say, I'm a huge Devil May Cry fan. I can think of plenty of other ways that you could do that. Like, for example, you could, if you're playing Devil May Cry 5, you can press right in the D-pad, tap R2 for a few times to change to the motorcycle. I forgot in its name, sorry. And then I think it's like R1 forward and circle and you just like launch the bike towards them.

Right. Well, super cool. Again, kind of fiddly to execute. Yeah. And so like even though like there's games that have come out after Bayonetta that in principle, I like a whole heck of a lot more, it's just I keep returning to Bayonetta because it's the game I want to keep playing. Yeah.

To extend an olive branch here to the Devil May Cry fans, I've got very small hands. And I can't do the claw for very long without it physically hurting. That's so small. They are. Really just like, think about like, think about what like the hands of, say,

like a three-month-old baby looks like. You're halfway there, okay? These hands They're like a Barbie doll's hands At one point I would have been ashamed of it But you know what I may not be able to play devil may cry

Very well But I can reach the last Pringle in the tube Ha ha ha ha ha I see the moon And let me play The list of times I'll see what's It's like a old chip

Before I must In my eyes In other words, oh, my words. In other words, don't kiss me. Oh, boy. So we've talked quite extensively about mechanics, I think. Well, I mean, we say extensively, there's so much scope that we haven't discussed, but we haven't got all the time in the world.

So I wouldn't mind talking about the story. in this game, because I think it's the other major aspect of it. I think that's fair to say. Yeah. So what's your take on this game's story? Because I'm going to be honest with you. I didn't skip a single cutscene. I don't know what's going on. Like, I watched every cutscene for the rule of call, okay? And I don't know what the story was. I know there was some time travel involved. I don't know what Lucas dealers. I just don't care.

Like, it completely, I stopped paying attention. I don't know what happens. I don't understand anything about the witches. I don't understand about the history. I don't get at any of it. And it doesn't matter. The game's still great. But I'd like to know how you feel about the storyline personally. It's absolutely a story that thrives on its characters, I think, more than the actual plot. But the story is deceptive.

Like, again, the story is deceptively fairly simple. Right. But it's just told in a way that is very confusing. You have to do a few play-throughs. Again, it's very much like the game. It's like the more you play, the more you discover. There's probably going to be some spoilers for this, like, over 10 years old game, by the way, I just wanted to put it out of there. But it's, essentially, Beonetta is a witch.

Umbrun witch, right? Yeah, an Umbrian witch, who, like, kind of were the emissaries of Inferno, and you have, like, the Lumen Sages, who are the emissaries of Paradiso. Right. Again, divine comedy, Dante's Inferno, blah, blah. So there's, there's, like, three realities. There's a trinity of realities, which is. like paradiso, inferno, and purgatorio, which is like, kind of like, where lost souls go. And so when you see Bayonetta, like, walking around and everybody's just kind of like glassy

and hollowed out, she's in purgatory. Right, right. Okay. And as a witch, like, like, the first thing that says, whereas it's like, in a world of light and dark, where perception is reality. And it's like, so she, by changing her perception, she travels between inferno, paradiso, and purgatorio and blah blah. Would it be easy to boil it down to them essentially being heaven-held on limbo? Yes, that's exactly what they are, yes. They are, okay, okay. But from

Italy, you see. Sorry, I'm getting too much into the lore here. No, no, I'm just making it like clear. What it essentially is, is that 500 years ago, there were the witch hunts, where the umbrain witches were all but exterminated. Bayonetta was sealed away, and, like, 20 years ago, like 20 years before the beginning of the game she is found at the bottom of a lake right and what essentially happens is she's now on a globe trotting

adventure to find out like there's a mystery introduced and she's on this globe trotting adventure to go to Vigrid which is the city in Italy where all the like the kind of the which is very religious and the Lumen Sages kind of set up camp there

and essentially it's all a big plot to resurrect God to resurrect like the god of creation Jubileus and they need Bayonetta for that because she is the daughter of an umbrain witch

and a looming sage right and so in order to... Is that what we call a star-crossed lovers sort of situation? Yes it is yes it is. Like spot on that's exactly what it is but in order to reawaken like her soul because she's got amnesia she's been sleeping

for 500 years. In order to reawaken their soul, they bring Seresa, who is Bayonetta as a child, they bring her, she goes to the future, they bring her to the future to try and like reawaken Bayanetta's awareness of herself as kind of

like this kind of like crossbreed that's going to reawaken God. Does Bayonetta's kind of drawn to this kid to protect this kid? Like, um, but she doesn't immediately know that it's her. No, she doesn't know that it's her and it's kind of like a lot of her memories of

mother are herself, basically. Like, the reason that she, the reason that the motif of the game is Fly Me to the moon is because as a kid, she heard herself singing that as an adult. You know, it's a modern song. Right. But this is a kid from, like, the 1500s. Is it a time loop, sort of stable time loop thing? Exactly.

That's exactly what it is. Cool. Yeah. I mean, I got that there was timing, Yemi, involved. I just didn't quite clock all of it. I feel like I'm being a bit ignorant, but that's just how I play games. I just tune out when I just don't know what's going on. It does not explain any of this to you in the cutscenes.

No. I still, like, you have to do a lot, like, you have to do a lot of reading. You have to kind of, like, pay attention and pick up on a lot of, like, little things. And again, I would consider that a pretty big criticism. Like, you know, you have to really, you have to really dig into the game to find out the details of what's going on. But the cutscenes are so fun in and of themselves. Like, the characters are so cheeky. It's clear who's the good guys.

and who's the bad guys? Can I, I want to say, actually, because this brings up something that's been on my mind recently about games in general, which is, I think that having your law tucked away is actually a good thing.

Law is kind of a pain in the ass to me, because I recently played a game. Now, I'm not a fan of Warhammer Byte. They have some quite good Warhammer games, okay? And I try to play Inquisitor, Marta, which is an action RPG based set in Warhammer 40K. every room you go in the guy starts babbling

all the law about everything in the room and it's like if I wanted to know about why this table is special I would walk up to the table I would click on it and I would examine it I don't want this stuff funneled at me I want to seek it out if I want to know it that's what's fun about digging into law

that's the enjoyment factor for me and what if Bionetta is tucking this stuff away and, like, documents and things, then good, you know. I mean, the story almost seems like a comment on game stories

and how absurd they are at some points because this game is, like, up to 11, like, all the time. Yes. So it makes sense in a way that the story is complete, like, ridiculous bollocks that doesn't explain in any way.

It perfectly suits the game to be that way. So I think it's very intentional, personally. Like, for me, it is one of, again, big Camilla fanboy here. So no apologies, actually. No, no, no, no. But this is what I really love about a lot of his games, is that, again, it's kept very simple and very surface level, you know?

Like, once again, I'm aware that I'm like, oh, no, the story's deceptively simple. And then, because I'm a nerd, I just immediately go into this ridiculous lore dump. Sorry. Yeah. It is deceptively simple. There's an evil priest. and he's trying to resurrect God. And you want to stop that.

Isn't the story of an umbrun witch and a lumen sage knocking boots and creating Bernetta, right? Isn't that kind of the same as Dante's backstory? But maybe I'm just thinking of the remake, the reboot, because...

No, that is the reboot, yeah. That is the same as a reboot, yeah. It's the same story, isn't it? Okay, kind of, yeah. Just notice that, that's all. I mean, there are any same many stories and I guess Romeo and Juliet is one of them. No, I actually hate that thing of, oh, there's only this

time, this many stories. Like, shut up, man. Shut up. That winds me up. There's like, there's like totally like a hundred stories. It's not like 10. It's like, if you reduce it down to a rue, but a rue is not a meal. Yeah. I saw this graphic, which is like meant to be like every game is a Metroidvania because you

boil it down to the absolute sort of simplest sort of elements. I know it's a problematic term. No offense parish. But it's so dumb to me to be like everything's an RPG actually you know because if you play as a character it's an RPG like shush be quiet yeah um

doesn't really relate to this game I just thought I'd get in that little run one of those here the thing is it's very easy to get swept up on the energy is infectious like I absolutely love the act just I love every time one of those great big

angel monsters like one of the boss monsters who's enormous The size of multiple buildings just comes down and starts speaking in like the heavenly tongue. You know, and like, you know, oh, the child, bayonetta. And she goes, how I feel like a fucking celebrity in this town. You know, it's funny. It's great. It's really, it's brilliant.

The voiceover is great. Yeah. The localisation is great. It's so easy to get swept up in. So, like, you don't need to know all the details of the story. You know who the good guys are. You know who the bad guys are. You know you want to stop them.

if you want to know more details the details are absolutely there like they have an incredibly detailed hierarchy for each of these angels which is apparently based on like actual writings about angelic hierarchies like this you've got like three tiers like the first sphere second sphere

third sphere and each of those spheres it makes me think about like Crowley and like the satanic stuff personally but yeah And it's like each of those has a different halo. They have a completely different halo design depending on where they are. Like, the visual design in this game is absolutely wonderful. I love, like, the angels are so ceramic and so beautiful and pristine. And then you start knocking them about.

And you just start seeing like the horrible, like, gore and strange organs underneath. Yeah. They're so weird and alien. I love that. That is, I do like that aspect of the game a lot. Yeah, the creature design is, um, The bigger creatures, I think, sometimes can be quite hard to read, but once you get them down, it's fine. You can more or less be inside them, beating the piss out of them that way.

But, yeah, I do like the visuals designing this game a lot. But, like, what I love about it as well is that it's not afraid to be silly. This is like, you know, it's got angels and they're very portentous and stuff. But they also have a car. Like, they literally have an angel that is just a car. And if you go and read, it's like, it's Pokedex entry, it's sitting there like, oh, maybe it was that humans were inspired to make cars because they saw this. And it's like, that's so goofy, but it's really, I think it's effortlessly fun. I think it is very, very energetic.

Yeah, I mean, it took me a while to come around to the vibe, but when I did, it was just like, okay, I'm in, I'm here for the long run, the long haul now. I mean, I died a lot playing this game. Oh, sort of that, yeah. A lot. I haven't gone through us for a second play. I wanted to ask about the difficulty settings in this game because I'm curious which ones you've done. I don't know if it has the equivalent of Dante must die

or anything like that? It does, yes. It's called non-stop infinite climax. Yeah, that's non-stop infinite, yeah. What it's got, is it's got, I really love the way they do the difficulty levels in these games as well, because what I feel like they do

is that they go to the higher difficulties and work their way backwards. Yeah. So, like, the higher difficulties really feel like, kind of... Like, once you kind of get to grips with the game, that feels like the way you're supposed to play the game. So what changes in the higher difficulties? Do enemies have more attacks, just a damage thing, or what?

Well, it's... I believe some get a couple more attacks, but the main thing is just remixed enemy placements. I don't even think they... I think the bosses do, but the regular enemies don't... become substantially spongier or anything like that. They get a bit, no, sorry, they do get more health. Yeah. But it's, by that time, you should have all your moves and everything as well.

Yeah. And it means you really get the chance to strut your stuff. You know, you really get the chance to show off. But what it essentially is, is you've got normal and then you've got hard, which is like with the remixed enemy placements. Yeah. And then I believe this is the case. You have the one above that, which is the one that I've never done, which is not. non-stop infinite climax, where it's just hard mode, except which time's disabled. Right. You can only go into which time if you equip a certain trinket and then cast that spell, so it drains your magic power.

Yeah. I mean, by a certain point in the main game, enemies are negating witch time anyway, right? I'm reasonably certain that I remember fighting another version of gracious and glorious that didn't let me use witch time. Oh yes, yes, there are enemies gracious and glorious are ridiculous By that point I'd actually equipped the thing that means

when you get a perfect dodge you leave a little bomb behind which I stuck with because I think that's much better than which time That is what got me through the game in the end When I learned how to dodge Enough I didn't find which time that useful But I did find the bomb useful for immobilizing enemies

And it does a lot of damage So I just stuck with that So when I got to that point And I wasn't able to use which time I wasn't using it anyway So it wasn't too bad actually But that was a memorable moment for me When I figured out about turning off

Which time in equipping there's other stuff Well there's loads of options There's loads of ways to like Customise your play experience There are weapons I barely touch Once I got down with the sword I just stuck with the sword Oh yeah

No the sword is brilliant My personal favourite is the whip it's not great but its hold function is if you hit an enemy with it and then hold it you can either tap backwards on the analogue stick

to pull the enemy to you or tap forwards on the stick to pull yourself to the enemy and that is so elegant and it works so well and it's not even like a major mechanic it's just in there it's just hey if you want to play around

with this here it is I think something I want to I want people to take away from from Bayonetta. Like if you haven't played a Benetta when you listen to this, first of all, what are you doing? And second of all, go and play right now. But I was someone like who really wasn't that interested in the kind of character action thing.

And eventually sticking with Bayonetta sort of pushed me into that world a bit more. I mean, I'm the kind of person who's probably not going to go back and do hard mode, maybe hard mode, maybe. But like non-stop, probably not. Pure Platinum, no way. That's not happening. No. I don't think I will ever have been going through the levels.

I have gone through the levels and rinsed them and found like the treasure chests and the hidden items and the hidden encounters and stuff. But that's the best I'm going to do. That to me is completion. And, you know, buying out the store and stuff like that. Because I think there's a secret fight you can do if you buy out the store. That is. Yeah. Yeah. Which I'm probably going to do at some point, maybe. But even as a casual player of these games, I had a really, I ended up having a.

a great time with it. I really didn't end up enjoying it. I think, I don't think it's perfect by any means as a game. I think it does have, it's sort of longer as it's over the top, too long, too much health, boss fights, but it transcends something. Like, it definitely goes part, it's definitely more than the sum of its parts to me. The insane cutscenes, that's a sort of gonzo vibe of the whole thing. Yeah. And how you learn to play in almost organically or it clicks with you eventually and then you just realize that you're

having a great time. It's fun to explore and it's fun to fight in and it looks great still I think. Oh yeah, like I love the palette of it. It's like I love that the whole game is very gold and black. Yeah. That's such

a unique like palette really. I think that looks great and of course that means that bayonetta's red kind of cuts through it. Yeah. along with their big spindly legs. But, like, it's very easy to read. Like, I don't know. It's a game that has earned itself all this prestige and everything.

But I think it is deceptively, like, accessible. Yeah, agreed. Yeah. In term, like, it's, like I say, like, I played it. And even beyond that, oh, my God, this is from the guys that made Beautiful Joe, even beyond that moment for me, it's just, it was so easy for me to stick with it. There was so much stuff. Like, it was so easy to maintain my enthusiasm

because the game is so clearly enthusiastic about itself. Yeah, yeah. It's, I'm just going to say, because it's on my mind. I don't necessarily mean this is a bad thing, but I think one of the reasons it put me off for quite a long time is it's kind of cringe. There's a lot of cringe in this game. So you've got to kind of be into that, I think.

You've got to be okay with that. And it took me a while to be okay with that. because the game is well aware of what it's doing, well aware. There's no accidents here. It's all very purposely done. But it can be difficult, I think, to get one's head in the game, so to speak, if you're not already there. Well, you're saying that it's cringe. It's kind of, from arm's length, it's quite crass and cringe.

Yeah. I think so, yeah. But this is what I think is so endearing to me about Camilla's games, is that they absolutely wear their heart on their sleeve yeah um like because the whole story if you don't mind like a bit of an amateur history like basically the whole story goes that like

he worked on resi one and then he was promoted to director of resi two because he was didn't like horror he was pretty pretty easily frightened and so what better person to direct a scary game than somebody that is scary but even when I'm playing resi two I don't think it's anywhere near as

atmospheric as the first one, but it's got more thrills. It's got more like the bit at the beginning with the liquor is just absolutely brilliant. I love that. Like that sticks out in my head so well. And then when it came time to do Resident Evil 4, he was put in charge of

that project and he was told to kind of take a new direction with it. So he basically just kind of made like Kamen Rider. Like you've got a guy who uses the powers of his enemies. and transforms into, like, insectoid-themed superheroes, basically.

You know, one of Ifrit's moves, and Devil May Cry, if you jump and press the attack button, is just the rider kick. So, you know, that's the kind of thing that he's into. He's into, like, Tokusatsu. He's into kind of, like, very childish stuff, superheroes. Jojo's Bizarre Adventure is another of his favorites. And he's also super into video games. Like, a lot of his interviews and stuff,

he will talk about his influences from other video games which is surprisingly rare like a lot of a lot of like developers talk about their influences from other media but he he's never done talking about like all the shoot-em-ups that he keeps playing and then putting in his games and everybody hates it except for him and like how much he loves a link to the past and everything

but basically after that with Devil May Cry he was basically not given any choice about working on a sequel They took it out of his hands and they basically gave it to somebody else. The first he knew that a sequel was even in development was when somebody came to him asking for assets. And what he was given, which is understand, like I would be frustrated, but what he was given instead was we'd like you to take a smaller team and make your own thing. What does he make? He makes like a Tokusatsu superhero, Beautiful Joe.

Yeah. And then, of course, you have Okami, which is his favorite game is a link to the past. so he just makes a Zelda game. And then you have Bayonetta. But the thing is, is that, like, of course, there was obviously some problems with Capcom or whatever the reason. Him and a lot of Clover Studio left Capcom and founded Platinum games. And this was the first game they got to make.

And it was with Sega, who had made a lot of the arcade games that he really loved. Like, there's Afterburner, and like we say, there's a whole bit that is just Space Harrier. So this, like, I don't know. I don't know if this was what he was thinking but for me this feels like kind of like a break free moment a moment where it was just like

I get to do what I want with my new company and it's just this absolute explosion of enthusiasm for everything that he likes and absolutely it is like cringe and it is quite juvenile but it's like so easy to like and when you get into it you will realize just how well thought through it is

and how good of a game director he is. Right. So something I wanted to do just to wrap up, really, because I want this to be nice and breezy, like, you know, Bayo Breezy. I don't know. It makes no sense. I don't know why I said it. I want to talk about the sequels, but only a bit, just like super briefly. Because I've already mentioned very briefly my experience with Bayonetta 2, which is the one I have played, but I haven't quite finished yet. I think Bayoneta 2 is, for me, more enjoyable to play. because it's less fussy and marketing less fussy it's a lot more rewarding to players who are just kind of bad at it like me

and it solves the problem for me of the giant enemy bosses by making you take on a giant sort of we've demon to fight them yeah yeah the umbrun climax yeah yeah it does also introduce that thing where you know that that mega thing you can do where you just spam punches

as well, which makes everything feel a bit more arcade and a bit less technical, but then I assume, because I've read that players generally like this game, but don't like the way it's been dumbed down? Yeah, that, like, again, it's, this is, I'm not a super duper

hardcore action gamer, so I am not, like, it has been dumbed down. It absolutely has. I'm not offended by that. I think, I think it's good. I think it's very good. think it is, once again, a really fun and energetic

sequel. And absolutely, it's not the game I return to most often. I do think Bayonetta 1 has more depth. I do think that the Umbrun climax really trivializes a lot of Bayonetta too. Yeah. But God damn, that's a fun game.

You sit me down in front of that game, and I am happy as you like, I'm happy as a pig and filth. I mean, the spectacle of that game is absolutely wild, even compared to the first one. I mean, is it worth saying that there's probably some influence there from God of War, the PS2 God of War, like era.

Yeah, maybe. Like, I would say that there's got to be some influence, like, from the enormous bosses and QTUs, but obviously Bairnetta does it in a bit more in a bit more style and a bit more playable. The first thing that happens in Bionetta

2 is that she kicks a jet up into the sky. Yeah. And, like, that's, like, that's the more, and then you fight on the back of that jet, And then John appears, and she goes, oh, I forgot the caviar. And she goes, it's not Christmas without caviar. And it's just, you know, it's just, it is one of the most, like, holler and shout and punch the air intros to a game I've ever played. I think it's just so good.

It's absolutely wild. I played it for the first time on the switch in a handheld mode, and it still blew my balls off. Yeah. That whole first level is just insanity. And it doesn't really let up after that. You go to some absolutely spectacular locations in that game. Oh, it looks beautiful. The exploration is just as good, if not better, as well.

The one thing they add that I don't like is there are a treasure chest that require you to do a really stupid, weird time trial to open them. Rather than just give me the treasure chest now, please. Which feels like padding. But, God, you know what we haven't mentioned at all? Awesome. I can't remember what they're called, but the little sub-areas where you have to do a certain combo

or a certain challenge without touching the ground and stuff like that. Alphheim. Or is it Neufthame? Yeah. We haven't talked about them at all, but that doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. There's a lot about the game we haven't talked about. It's a very in-depth game. Yeah. But what did you say?

B.I.2, what's your take on it, so broadly speaking? Well, exactly. Like you said, it is streamlined for better and for worse. Yeah. Like, there's a... What's been removed? What's gone? It's, um, like, I couldn't... Again, I haven't played it enough to really do like an in-depth breakdown. Yeah.

But the main thing that I noticed, was like there's no difference between punching and kicking anymore. Like kicks used to be quite slow. You know, they were slow but stronger, whereas punches were like fast and light. Whereas both are now just kind of the same. And it's

it's just kind of like there's slightly less variety to the enemies. Like attacks are telegraphed more consistently. In a way that like, as a first time, like I've said they are telegraphed more consistently and you're probably sitting there thinking, isn't that a good thing? Sorry, I said

that very accusingly. No, I get what you mean. I get what you mean. But what it means is that... I mean credulous right now with what you just... And I'm kidding. Go on. Go on. It's easier to learn and that means there's like less to go back to. I believe the hardest difficulty still gives you access

to which time as well, although I could be mistaken about that. It's stuff like that. But oh, also, that game, again, wonderful designs. I love what they do with the demons. Yeah. But, yeah, no, like, it's, so if you, if you were put off by Bayonetta 1 being quite, like, if you found it quite obtuse, like, what I mean is, is like, it's less replayable. There's less for me to go back to with Bayonetta 2, but also, it doesn't have anything like Route 66. Yeah, yeah, that stuff's all been taken out. It's probably a bit more uniform in the boss battles because of the fact that you do always end up controlling the giant, like, demon thing.

That does make it feel a little bit formulaic, maybe. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I haven't finished it yet. I don't like the kid whose name I forget. There's a really annoying kid in it. But I'm sure, Loki, I'm sure I'll come around to him at some point. I don't know. Yeah, I dig it.

But now, outside of that, it took a long time to happen. It was announced about four years for it came out, I think. In 2017, it was six years. It was like five and six years. Jesus, well, okay. And Benetter III hit the switch. and my understanding is it was met with some

mixed feelings because I know story-wise it disappointed a lot of people I I didn't enjoy Benetta 3 I didn't like it They changed it up quite a lot didn't they They did

It feels kind of troubled Because they tried to do Like Can I just give you an anecdote about this Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so I remember, I've told you the sort of how I encountered Bayonetta 1, but I am terrified of any further Bayonetta sequels coming out. Yeah.

Because every time one does, it's like, it predicates a really terrible day for me. Jesus. Because Bayonetta 2 came out, and I was supposed to go down to York for a convention on that same weekend, and I got unbelievable, like, I started having an unbelievable, vertigo and anxiety that lasted for like 10 years on the day that came out and they came through my door. And then Beonetta 3 comes out and I'm sitting there like, okay, I'm looking forward to enjoying this. And then there's a chap at my door. It's the police telling me that my downstairs neighbour thought I was doing homophobic attacks against them. Oh, Christ. Yeah, that's wild.

So I hope Beonetta 4 never happens or else it's going to be like a bomb hits my house. To probably clarify that Che wasn't doing Home of Her Big Attack against my sentiment knowledge So when Serraiser and The Lost Demon came out Nothing happened there, only works with sequels, is that? Well, that was around about the time I think we found mould in my walls But I didn't buy it, I was too scared Right, okay

Sorry, yes, Bayanetta 3 Man, I really wanted to like it But I didn't Like, they did so much stuff that is just Apparently the story goes, they wanted to make it kind of semi-open word and then because of the switch's power or development difficulties or whatever, you know, for whatever reason, they didn't do that. You know, it seems the scale of that project had to change multiple times.

But for me, it's, it was like, number one, the game itself is predicated on this new gimmick, which is that you can summon and control multiple big monsters, you know, like Bayonetta does in the cutscenes. Like Astro-Ten, so. Yes. Yeah, like that. And while you're doing it, Bainetta, like, stops. Yeah. You know, you can't control her, so you have to keep an eye on her and the background,

and it's on the switch, which is already beginning to show its age, I think, is a charitable way of putting it. Well, it's essentially a phone from 10, like, you know, the other guy. And, kind of, and, like, there's barely any traditional boss battles. It kind of goes into, like, little, like, light gun segments. or like big kaiju battles where it's a rock paper scissors thing or a rhythm section

instead of like actual boss battles. So it's a sort of mini-game collection basically. Yeah, it kind of. The thing about it for me is it has all of the energy of Bayonetta with none of the control. Absolutely none of the... Okay, I've talked to you about the stuff

that Camilla likes, you know? And like Bayonetta does make tribute to it. You know, there's an unlockable character with like six summonable spirits who are numbered one, two, three, five, six, seven skipping the number four in an oblique Jojo's bizarre adventure

reference. Yes. You know, I've talked about how basically one of the signature moves for Dante and Beautiful Joe and Bayonetta is the rider kick. Stuff like that, you know. It was the moment where Bayanetta summons Madame Butterfly, like her familiar, who

then charges up a camy-hamy-ha, where I was like, this doesn't really seem like the same track. Yeah. You know, like big laser blasts weren't really the series bag. Yeah. It is all over the place and there's a lot of, you know, you can feel all the passion and the energy pouring out of it, but it never ever comes together anywhere close to as well as the first two.

You finished it? I did, yes, yeah. I've heard lots of complaints about the ending of that game. Well, do you mind spoilers or do you... I think probably shouldn't spoil the ending, but I mean... Okay, I won't spoil the ending. If you want to make comment on it, I mean, the reason I wouldn't is that this is not a bane-out-a-3 podcast. It's probably best not to just drop the ending of that game.

No offence, obviously. No, absolutely. Come back in nine years and we'll talk about it then. What I will say is that it didn't feel true to the character's form. me. And this part isn't a spoiler. Don't worry. I'm not spoiling anything. But they kind of use the multiverse as a crutch there. They decide it's no longer

They marveled it. They really did. Like they decided, okay, this is no longer a Trinity of realities. This is now a multiverse. And so you're going through the multiverse and you're like, you know, so it's just an excuse for a big, crazy like

different bayonetta outfits. But it's like it's, it's bayonetta. She's a fashionista. She could have just put on a outfit by yourself, I feel like. Right. But what it is, is that it kind of walks this very odd line where it can't quite decide

whether these are supposed to be the characters you know and love, or if they're supposed to be new folks. And it kind of... That's very unusual sounding. It kind of like wavers back and forth on that. Like, it seems that all the development of the last two games has still happened, but also it hasn't.

And, you know, kind of, it's trying to have its cake and eat it. And it just, it never worked for me and the combos feel less good to me and also, like, I mean, the lock on button is now on R3, like it's bloody Dark Souls. You know, you have to take your hand off the controller and place it on the analogue stick to lock on, which the speed bayonetta goes at, that's not great. No, that's not great at all. But. I wonder why they changed it. I will say, I've got to hold my hands up.

I've got to, I want to end this on a positive note because it's a game. in a series that I really love. Viola, the new character. Yeah. I adore her. I adore Viola. Everybody seemed to hate Viola, but I adored her because... Is it because they're new?

Is it like the new character? We hate them. She's a bit awkward. She's kind of got a Sekhi-Roe thing going on, but with... It's very... The timing of it is very finicky. Right.

Apparently they patched it to change that, which is nice. But it's... What it is... He was on a parrying countering. Yeah, she's got a katana and she parries it. Right, right. But what I will say is that she is like clumsy. She's trying to be cool like Bayonetta,

but she's really clumsy and goofy. And like that's so obviously the point. And she's like a misunderstood punk, whereas Bayonetta is this absolutely supremely confident, like more classically inclined aesthetic. That does sound like a fun dynamic to have, I think. It's really fun. I really love it.

I think she's great. I would like to see more of her. If they gave me a Viola game, I would buy that. But you didn't play Ceres on the Lost Demon, the most recent one? Not yet. I would like to. Yeah, I played the demo when I was pretty. I liked it.

It's very different, though. It's much more sort of top-down puzzle-adventory thing. It is pretty good. But I'm not going to talk about it, so I've only played the demo for like five seconds. So Biongible So Bionnetta 3, my understanding is it pretty much ties a bow on, on Bionetta. Well, this is what I'm saying about the multiverse. It doesn't, it doesn't.

Yes, the multiverse, of course, opens it up more. Well, she gets... Like, are we just doing... Well, no, no, I mean, all I wanted to say is just my understanding as it kind of says, like, this is now finished. But, of course, with the altiverse being a thing, that's kind of open... This is what I mean by, like, having your cake and eat it. Yeah.

I guess the thing is for me is that, like, my problem is Bayonetta 1 and 2 were so uniquely themselves. And for Bayonetta 3 to go, okay, multiverse now, that and it's like you know mad scientists and multiverses and all this that's the moment where it's like okay i've seen that i've never seen anything like bayonetta one i've seen loads of stuff like bayonetta three right right i see okay yeah that does seem like an unfortunate kind of way to wrap it up but it's not wrapped up so i guess we'll see what happens maybe it's just going to end up being a blip and bayoneta four is going to be absolutely banging uh i guess we'll find out in the future and uh

Speaking of the future, it is now the future. We've come to the end of the podcast. It was the past before, but it's the future now. That's how time works. Look, I'm not a time scientist. Don't ask me. Shea, where can our listeners find you on the internet as if they don't already know? You can find me on just type in Shugles or Shugles underscore.

So that's S-H-O-G-L-E-S and optionally add an underscore to it on like Tumblr and Twitter and Instagram and Patreon I do videos for YouTube and I do streaming. It's mainly Pokemon just now. Hopefully that'll change. Hopefully I'll get the opportunity to talk more about Bayonetta. And if you're a fan of Retronauts, first of all, thanks. And if you'd like to support Retronauts, second of all, thanks again.

You can do so by going to patreon.com forward slash Retronauts, where if there are mere $5, which is so little money. you can get access to each weekly episode, a full week early, as well as getting two bonus episodes per month. They're completely fresh, completely new, and only for Patreon supporters, and they're good episodes too. We did one about two part one about Super Metroid, and that was just for Patreon's, you know?

You don't want to hear that. You want to hear Jeremy Parrish, Diamond Fight, and me talking about Super Metroid. Everyone wants to hear that. And for a mere $5, you can hear that. You can also get Diamond Fight's incredibly good this week in retro columns, which they also narrate as a podcast. You can get them in a words form or in speaking form. And you can also go on the Discord, and you can call me a litany of slurs

and I'm not allowed to respond. I have no right to reply. You can say whatever you like to me. Abusive, just awful things. Terrible. The worst things you can think of. Say them all to me. And, you know, you've paid for that privilege, and no one's going to stop you.

Thank you very much for listening. And until next time, I'm off to have a non-stop infinite climax. Bye. I don't know. Oh, and so much. My ass. It's not even funny. I don't know.

And you're telling me that a New Yorker falling on his ass and I going out, my ass isn't funny? Well, it's amusing to me that the benzuela. has been boiled down entirely to just saying my ass complaining about pain in his ass. I mean, that's what he does. That is his thing.

No, that's what he does. You're not flanderising the character there. He pees on a gravestone and gets abducted while he's peeing. Can a guy even take a piss? I've got to go and get everything, bagel, for my ass. I've got to go buy a hemorrhoid cushion

from my ass. I think I'll stand. Um.