Retronauts - 657: Sonic 3 + Knuckles, Part 4

Episode Date: December 16, 2024

No need to get blue spheres! The penultimate part of Stuart, Dave, and Shay’s forensic examination of Sonic’s greatest adventure is finally upon you! Retronauts is made possible by listener support through Patreon! Support the show to enjoy ad-free early access, better audio quality, and great exclusive content. Learn more at http://www.patreon.com/retronauts 

This week in Retronauts, I used to go to a chip shop and Hunstantan called the Flying Battery. That's completely untrue. Welcome to the episode. Hello, I'm Stuart Jepp, and you're listening to the Good God, which number part is it, I've completely forgotten? Four, four. Number four, we've done, we're doing the fourth one of these. The fourth part of the Sonic 3 and Knuckles, unbelievably deep dive.

As I've said before, you know, the listeners, they asked for this. They wanted me to do Sonic content, and they didn't know what they were asking for. Like, they were not ready, nobody was ready for the depth that this is going to go into. Like, when this is complete, I genuinely believe it's going to be a piece of significant cultural criticism. That's my opinion. It should be in the Smithsonian. It should be in the British Museum. It should be on the official Sonic website.

It just shouldn't be something anyone listens to. It's either bad. It's going to be taken as a significant piece of performance art. Yeah. But who's with me today? I'm going to start with the old... Let's do it in alphabetical order by first name like usual. Who's here today?

Hi, I bet mine's first Were you thinking? Did you have to think about it? Yeah, I was just working out, yeah. No, what I was thinking what is, is like, Shea-Maze's real name, isn't it? Yeah, okay, yeah, okay, okay, okay, okay. Stuart, that's an S, okay, okay,

Hi, I... But of course, it's Gaelic, so it actually starts with the C. Oh, dear. The thing is you can get me with that. I'm not going to argue with that. That could be true. I don't know. I usually call you something that starts with the sea as well,

so it all works out. Hello, I'm Dave Bulmer. Should I say anything more than that? No. It's not necessary. Everyone already knows this. This is completely formal. They just have to get this out of the way and get stuck in. And who else is here today, as if anyone doesn't know already?

Hello, I'm Shemey. I was here the last few times. Please refer to earlier intros. Yes. And we have finally, we are now into Sonic and Knuckles. There are only one zone deep. And we've covered Mushroom Hill. We covered the entirety of Sonic 3. We've even done a little bit

of exploring around the fringes of the game. We've had a little look in the fridge as well just before we started this. We have, yeah. We had to put a rotten egg in there to create Eggman in the first place. To create who? Thank you. Robotnik, robotnik, sorry.

It's marketing. That's a deep cut. Yeah, it's quite deep, isn't it? Yeah. Well, it shouldn't be. Listen to Sonic the copy of the podcast, everyone. But, yes, we're on to the flying battery zone. And, you know, it's an interesting zone.

You get picked up from this enormous spaceship that you grab onto as it flies across the mushroom hill zone being piloted by one of those little mole things, isn't it? Or at least there's one there, which is a bit weird. Like the idea that this tiny mole is piloting this enormous... That's the most important thing that mole has ever got to do because normally they just sort of sit there, don't I? They do, they just throw mushrooms at you.

I quite enjoy the anachronism of a lot of Sonic's... I like iconography. I like that... we need a flying character. What is he? He's a fox. Oh, we need a pilot for this great big spaceship. What is it? Is it a bird? Is it an eagle? No, it's a mole. Of course it's a mole. I mean, that extent goes back to Sonic 2, where it's kind of like, we've got a flying level. What do we need? Giant tortoises with tiny tortoises piloting. That's not what anachronistic means. That's about time. I'll tell you what's anachronistic is the fact that Tails has got a wartime biplane. Now, that's anachronistic. I'm going to fucking trinistic your knackers in a minute

shut up No you're absolutely right Anachronistic does mean that Yep So that's not anachronistic It's a malapropism That's what it is It's a malopropism

It's an it's idiosyncratic How about that? Move on before Dave Figures out that I'm wrong So yes the transition For flying battery Is one of my favourites actually I really like it

When you think about it It doesn't really make it that was out of sense because the whole thing was clearly like overgrown you know there's like

under forest but suddenly this thing just comes through and it's just kind of there and the fact that Robotic

was transmitting this kind of climate control thing and then sort of flies off and joins in with the flying battery it all just kind of

comes together in a way that I find very appealing like just say yeah of course he escapes to this thing and then you jump on it grab the side

and you're immediately in flying battery with some of the raddest music you've ever heard in your entire life I love the first zone theme of this. The second one ruins it a bit. Oh, I disagree with that.

I actually think I prefer the second one. Yeah, I think so. I mean, the second one is good, but it has that B, B, B, do, do, over the main... That's what I like. Millilude, which I don't like very much. I like it. See, I like them both. I don't like Pee, do, do.

I'm like flying battery music anachronistic. Sorry, I mean, agnostic. Hmm. Well, that's nice. That's good to hear. But the flying battery zone, I mean, it's a... I mean, it's kind of the Wing Fortress zone, isn't it? Like, in design, like, it's not obviously identical. It's got its own little, like, plenty of its own gimmicks,

but, like, you know, going underneath it on the platforms over the sheer drop and then going back inside it, it does feel to me like the Wing Fortress quite a lot. It's like a redux of that zone. But there are lots of cool ideas, which we're going to have to dig into. I mean, what's your sort of impression of this, say, and Shay? What I wanted to pick up on is you were saying, like the transition between Mushroom Hill and Flying Battery

is impressive. It's especially impressive of course as, as we've covered Flying Battery was originally supposed to be between Carnival Night and Ice Cap I believe. I really like this one. I'm going to spend a lot of time today talking about the character of these zones

again, but I really like the character of this one as very smooth and fast and rapid. Like this is kind of a bit, it has more of a frantic pace, which is perfect for Sonic being kind of stuck in the heart of one of Robotnik's operations, like one of his main machines.

But I also absolutely love that we've got some context here, because it's called the Flying Battery, which is an odd name for just a big spaceship, airship, but it's called the Flying Battery, of course, because that's where he keeps all the capsules that he keeps the little critters in, who serve as batteries for his at all box. What? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know, but I love it.

I always thought that it was battery, like, like salt and battery. Like, here's a battery. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of battering you with its battery. It's like a gun ship. Yeah. It's a salt and battery what they used to give you in your chips. Oh. If they didn't like you, yeah. Oh. Oh, dear.

But I've, I don't know if there's any reality to that at all. I've grown up assuming that battery. His, like, an old word for a gunship of some sort. I don't know if there's any truth to that. It's entirely based on this. No, no, it is because, like, if you have an array of guns, I'm not sure the exact, the specific circumstances, but I believe you would call that, like, a forward battery.

So you could well be right. So a flying battery is that. Yeah. Well, if you have any thoughts on what exactly a flying battery is, readers, then by all means leave comments, because I would love to know. Of course, when I was an actual kid, actually playing this on the Mega Drive, I just didn't know what it meant, and I thought it meant a big battery.

Just it's a big, it is a battery where we must have a big tele remote to plug this into core, look at the size of it. A big juror cell, yeah. I did wonder if maybe the point was that it plugged somehow into the death egg. Oh, it was part of the deathache. Oh, that would be cool.

That actually would be cool. What a cool idea. Yeah, I know I'm full of them. Hi, I got some great ideas for Sonic. Here's the first one. Why don't you make a game that isn't a piece of shit? Just give it a go. Anyway, so yes, I mean, talking specifics in this zone, there are a few things that I absolutely love in this zone that just bring me enormous joy.

And they're very steward jip. very sort of illiosyncratic small things. Sorry, they're very anachronistic small things, is what I mean, obviously. That's the meme for this episode, by the way. For example, there are some areas where you have the usual,

you know, the groups of three spikes that drop up, the little bunches of spikes. And there's one that's by itself. And if you run into it, you push it. Like, the spikes get pushed to the right. And when, and they're actually blocking a hole you can drop into a secret hole. I don't think I know about this one.

A beautiful secret hole. And it's got a giant special super ring in it. I love a beautiful secret hole. First of all, one, I know, I have a beautiful secret hole. But one, that's a giant ring. That's a completely fresh way, okay. That's a completely fresh way to hide a super ring for one thing that you'd only find if you were just dicking around or being curious or happened to notice it

when you accidentally ran into this thing. Because I usually push up against the spikes to ensure that I'm right next to them. When I jump over them, I won't land on them. But when you do that and you just see, oh, hang on, this is moving. That's the kind of thing that makes me love a game when they are willing to hide things that way. I mean, there's also a one-up that's hidden in the ceiling at one point, which brings me an enormous joy. Well, it's like they say, it's hold right to win in Sonic. Yeah, hold right to win, yeah.

Okay, now on that, there is, so I really like the flying battery zone, but there's a lot of fussing about in it. There's a lot of waiting. Yeah, there's a lot of waiting for stuff. And sometimes, you know, and like making the wrong jumps. I mean, how about that trick fire shield near the start of level one? Near the start of Act 1. You're given this, you drop down into this little chamber and there's a couple of monitors and one of them is a fire shield. And you go, brilliant, I've got a fire shield.

I can do my flight. Because with the fire shield when you jump and then press the button again, you shoot forward as a fireball. So you go, great, I'm going to do this. You go running along, there's a little lip for you to jump off. You go, I'm going to do this. And you do a big fireball a lot. And you instantly die because where you've just jumped out into is just open sky with some really specific moving platforms. You have to slowly and methodically get across.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, like, honest. What happens to me? Well, what happens to me is I go out there, I've got my fire shield on. And because I am God's gift to gaming. Yeah, yeah. Like, you just, you skim across the top of them using the fire shield. You can do like, I don't know. I'd love to do that.

The innate skill kicks in as well. So you can zip and shooves and shooves and shooves all the way across that whole bit. Yeah, more or less, yeah. Yeah, it's a fantastic feeling. I mean, you're not going to do it the first time. No, no, you're not. Shea, do me a video of that. I want to see how it's done.

But because Dave, sorry, that's not to contradict you, Dave, because there are. No, it is. Bollocks stems. There are absolutely, like, a lot of points where you do weight in this zone. But what I find, it's a zone I used to not really like very much because of that. I thought it was very stand around and wait and then watches that the game just kind of like automatically pushes Sonic through these whizzing like corridors and swirly things and set pieces. But as I kind of got more used to it and as I got better at it, I found there, there is a lot of skill expression, which I find very satisfying. I like the fact that there are enemies

that are tiny blue mice that are like computer mice and they're called Turbo Squeaks They are called TechnoSquix Techno squeaks Is the best badnick In all of Sonic I'm so glad we've got on to Techno Squeak

Yes it is Yeah He's a little baby He's a little lump He's a computer mouse Scurrying about It's a computer mouse That is also a mouse

With big eyes I mean genius It's got a little bit of Cable coming off It has a tail He's got a couple of big eyes stuck on the front And if you look in the manual, in the European manual, because here we've got the EU

or we did, so you have to print multiple languages in the manual, right? So to see a page in English, you have to turn several pages and find the right paragraph. But that means you get to see what the badnecks are called in other languages. And in, I don't know what language is in, but this guy in another language, Spanish or something, is called Technopip. What a lovely little name for what a lovely little guy. That's what I've always called him, the Technopip. Yeah, a cute name for a cute little guy. Yes, he rules.

I love him. Why don't we see more techno squeak? A Techno squeak should be in every single Sonic game and every single non-solid game as well. Yes, yes. They should make a computer mouse that is a techno squeak. I would actually buy that. I would buy that, absolutely. Even if it was functionalist.

Even though, from the user's perspective, it would just look like a normal mouse because the eyes are kind of where the... No, they're not. They're on the other end. I was wrong. Yeah, the tail would be the chord for the mouse or whatever. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. But the buttons are on the eye end. So there's something wrong here.

No, it would be fake. There's buttons at the back. You just can't see them because it's TD. Oh, okay. Yeah. Got ice pulled out of that one pretty well. Yeah, it always me that jacks or whatever the company is who makes the toys. They're making these pretty cool sonic toys.

Like you've got Sonic, robotic and like Silver Sonic, you know. But they're not making just like badnicks, like a pack of badnicks. I would love that. a pack of bad we used to have such things you guys back in the 90s we done a we've done a buzz bomb we done a bullhawk you know we done a we've done a techno squeak we you know we've done a spike bonker the spike bonker did you the spike bonker I was waiting to get to the spike bunker the spoik bunker the spoy bunker I'm Ellen Moore and this is my spike bunker as he famously said that time did you in the 90s either of you ever get those blind bagged badnicks No. No. What? Yeah, guys.

Yeah, dude. Blind Baddicks. They were... I mean, they weren't just Baddix. They were like Sonic and Knuckles figures in general. So it was the first time that there was a little plastic figurine of knuckles. There was a little metal Sonic in there. I didn't get that one.

Are you sure you haven't confused them with GoGo's Crazy Bones? Oh, yeah, that's right. Yes, I'm thinking of... Because Go Go Goose Crazy Bones did a splats. This is the thing. They had a splats. There was a toy splats you could get. From the news agent.

blind bags. It was amazing. Splats to the rubber. I think that is the first time that Go Go Crazy Bones did a splats has ever been said in the history of the English language. Well, that's the subtitle for the episode then. Moving on. Flying battery, other things that occur on flying battery. Now, as you've mentioned, Shay, I think it was you who mentioned this, the batteries, you know, the organic batteries in which robotic keeps the animals are placed quite prevalently in this stage. Now, normally, the only time you've ever seen these things is at the end of a level.

What do you mean by organic batteries here? What are you referring to that? You know, the animals. Yeah, the animals. They turned into like supposedly organic batteries to power the badmicks, right? What? Yeah, they stick electrodes in the, like, Quaker and their eyes and that, and that's how it works. So when I hear organic battery being, you know, the term coming from Sonic the comic,

that's just the name for an animal in a badnik. What do you mean? Okay, sorry, you know, the prisons that at the end of each stage is something like one too? Yeah, like the pods that have gone all in. The capsules, yeah. Yeah, they have them in this game as well, but they're sometimes flying. Yes.

Yeah, there are lots of those places throughout the level. Of course, you're meant to think, like, oh, these things are, if I jump on this, the level's over. And, of course, you jump on it, and then a load of badniks erupt out of it. You're like, oh, shit. Another one, for example, you'll break, and loads of rings will come out of it.

And it's just, I think it's another piece of excellent organic storytelling. Because they haven't had anything put in them yet. I'd never thought of it like that. Yeah, you have come to the place where these things are being made. Oh, I never thought of this. I think you're right. How cool is that?

I love that. And then, of course, not to spoiler, but then, of course, you get to the end of the level. You jump on the thing and it comes alive. It starts attacking you. How much fun must they have had with that? Yeah. What a fun thing? Okay, this is how you know a creative team are like firing an,

all cylinders, when they are able to just play that kind of little joke on you. You get to the end of the level, you see the capsule, you think, oh, Yaldea, a capsule. You jump on the top and then it comes to life and starts trying to smack you while you're on his head. That's really funny. And I don't notice it now because I've seen the joke so often, but it's a genuinely funny little gap. That's it starting to be funny and then it continues to be funny because wherever you stand on the screen, the thing punches you with a big arm. So you go, well, I'll know what I'll do? And you stand on his head.

And you make you punch yourself in the head. It's brilliant. You fight it unlike anything else in the game. And it's organic. Again, you figure that out organically. It's kind of obvious, isn't it? That's kind of cinematic, is it not? Like, there is literally a bit in one of the Sonic cartoons

where Sonic stands in front of Robotnik and, like, taunts him. goes, nah, nah, nah, and then, like, Robotnik tries to hit him and then punches himself in the face with the big robot. You know, and that's literally what you're doing here just through the game. Yeah. And it's nice that, you know, we're four games deep, or three games technically, and they're already going like, let's make fun of the tropes. Let's subvert the something, you know, that's what we're doing here. And it's cute, and I like it a lot. I'm very fond of that boss fight. I mean, there are other things in Flying Battery worth talking about, I think. Other than the sort of association with like plenty of moving platforms and different types of movie platforms, there's also a thing with magnetism going on.

This is the source of a lot of the weighting that I don't like, but it's a cool idea, certainly. I mean, for me, and I'm going to be completely honest with you, I just take the hit, because I don't care, it doesn't matter. Like, it doesn't matter if you get hit in Sonic, because that's why it's great. That's always not. But standing around and waiting for these, like, you've got these magnets on the ceiling. basically and they'll turn on and little metal spike pools will be attached to them that are on the floor, but also bad

nicks will be picked up by them. Anything metal will rise to the ceiling because these magnets turn on. And that also includes Sonic if he has an electric shield. Oh, you're joking. I don't know that. I think am I thinking of the death egg?

I think you might, I don't know. I don't think that's true, but I think that the listen, I think you might be being anachronistic there. I think the listeners will figure that out. We could have subtly edited that out, but it ain't going to happen now. No, it's not going to happen

though. We're going to, say,'s rank stupidity will be exposed. Well, hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Listen, I don't accept the rank stupidity rap, but we need to decide whether or not I've actually been stupid in the first place, or whether or not whether or not, like, history

will vindicate me. Well, the electric shield in the Lettheg lets you walk on the electric surfaces, obviously. I don't recall it ever making you rise up, though. However, that's a very cool idea, and I'd like it to be true. Yeah. I think with the flying battery, the thing is, I usually default to the fire shield because there are so many fire-based obstacles on that stage.

Yes. I know there are lightning shields there, but I think normally I would just not pick them up. So this could well be true. I think what we should do is we should leave it, because, you know, it's a game that's so good that people have almost sort of apocryphal ideas about it. You were right about, tell you what, you were right about the thing where, you know, you go in the water and Badnik's in the water

die if you've got a lightning show. Yeah, that was right. Which is wildly cool. That is wildly cool, and it's very much along these lines. Yeah. By the way, Shire, I just want to make it clear that you're not, or rankly stupid at all. You're actually quite smart. It's a joke. Oh, yeah. Well, you know, some people don't understand my sense of humor, Shea.

They think I'm just being mean, but I'm not. When I say horrible things, I always, what I'm actually secretly saying, is, I love you. I'm going through the wiki and everything trying to find any information about this. It's a sticky wiki.

It is indeed. I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I am going to boot up Sonic 3. Oh, okay. And I get to flying bat, and see if I can... You're getting this live folks. We've got live Sonic 3 right now. I'm playing Sonic 3 right now as well.

Why are you going to play Sonic 3 for? Are you going to play Sonic 3? Especially if you're doing a podcast. Is this so unprofessional? I'll tell you why I'm playing Sonic 3. It's because I didn't get through the Sandopolis zone before we started. Ever in your entire life. No, ever in my life.

I'm just looking for any extra little details. Here's one. In the flying battery zone, what is it with the fact that just randomly, and for one zone, they've decided to make the spikes kind of jiggle up and down like little machines? Because it look cool, I guess. It does look cool. It's just really strange that they just did it for one level, and that was that. It's a lot, I mean, there are gimmicks in this stage that are revisited from previous stages.

Like, there are the, I think that those sort of cylinder things are also in, I want to say Metropolis, or am I completely wrong about that? Oh, the twisty-roundy, corkscrew things. Yes, I think they are as well. I can't, because I can't remember Sonic 2 as well as I can this, I'm second-guessing myself, but I'm pretty sure that a version of it is in there, yeah. The thing with Sonic 2, is bless Sonic 2, you know, it's obviously a great game, but the levels just don't have the character that this game's levels have.

have to me. They don't stick in the mics. They haven't got the set pieces. You know, they haven't got the character. But the Blind Battery does have character and that's quite remarkable because it could quite easily be forgettable. It's just, and air quotes, another base, like another launch base, you know, it's very, very similar to that level. It kind of moving, sort of speaking about Act 2 a bit, because there's a lot of

gimmicks we haven't talked about, but we'll get to them. Act 2 kind of piles on the sort of homage because the first, the boss begins with a sequence that's rather similar to Wing Fortress Zone where you're locked in between two lasers and a giant laser beam on the ceiling

is firing a, you know, all you have to do is dodge it, and if you dodge it for long enough, for some reason, Robotnik's controls explode. Then you chase him through the ship. And yeah, and he fights you with what has to be the least practical of all of his robots ever. Yeah, it looks like fun for him, though. Oh, yeah, I'm sure he's having a blast, and that's great.

And it would be remiss of me at this point if I didn't point out the error in this part of the game where when you're playing as knuckles at this point, you will be fighting robotic. I think we've talked about this actually. I think we did. Before. Yes. But, no, getting off the boss and going back to, the main zone. I mean, I guess the thing with Flying Battery is, it's

just good. I believe this was the first time in any Sonic game that Sonic did any kind of hand-over-hand climbing like this as well. There are things you can cling to in like Wing Fortress, but you can't then climb across some hand over hand. You have to jump, I think.

Okay, yeah. So these are some kind of hanging things from the ceiling that are like climbing not rings, but like square rings. Monkey bars. Monkey bars pretty much, yeah. Okay, and yeah, so Sonic does climb over them, and then some of them go down

and take you down to lower down levels and stuff. Yeah, it's awesome. It's just another way of traversing that we haven't seen before. Yeah, and it's kind of, like, the first few times you play it, you sort of think, oh, sweet, I've got to, like, guess which one

is the one that will take me there, and it's not, actually, it's... No, it's usually not the one that's over some spikes. Exactly, yeah, you just kind of carry on until you're taken down. But still, it has that feel to it. And there's some really interesting Like flying battery has those things

Which are like these kind of They're kind of springs But they're also fire launchers Yes They spur fire at you But when you jump on them They become a spring Well it's like a little

It's like a sort of nozzle That's got flamethrowers spinning around Just like a little turret Little round turret Yeah But then when you go on it I always I always interpreted it as like Because when you go on it

You kind of push the top down So it's like Too much pressure builds up and it springs up because of that. I was going to say exactly the same thing. Because it's pushed down, the fire's still going. It's building up, it's building up, and then it pops back up again. And then it bursts you up. Yeah, that makes sense.

I like that. Yeah. But of course, it's another sort of... It's almost like... I always see it as almost like a training thing, because quite soon after that, you get a fire shield. And in Sonic 3, they're really on as many instances of the fire shield just letting you walk in fire.

Yeah. But in this game, based on, like, you know, the lava reef sun that's coming up, there's a lot of fire in it. And it's nice to have that kind of reinforcement of, like, yes, if you have this shield, this thing ain't a problem. Yeah. You can just stand in it. You can stand right there as it whirls round flame throwing at you. And you're just like, I don't care.

I got this. There's another example of the game not being afraid to, like, just trust you, you know. They never just kind of stop the game and go, do this, do that. It's just the game completely trusts you to find your own. Well, there's so much to discover. Yes. At W.H. Smith. There are so many cool set pieces in this level.

Like, if you take the highest route, which is fairly difficult to do as regular Sonic, it's kind of, if you take the highest route, you end up on this little set piece thing where robotic launches missiles at you and you have to, and then they destroy the roof. Yeah. And then you go in and then there's like little ramps with the swinging balls going around them. And there's a lightning shield right before it. You collect the lightning shield. And if you can maneuver between the swinging balls well enough, you go up and you get rings galore.

And you all get attracted to you. It's really cool. That's right. And if you play enough Sonic and Knuckles, everyone does get attracted to you. That's, you know. That's the opposite of what's true. The thing that was in a mention. I got married off the back of it.

Oh, yeah. I mean, one time I went in and I said, I got half a million points before Marble Garden Act 2. And let me tell you. The clothes came off. She just turned to me, looked to me, squaring the eye and said, right, you pointed to the bedroom door. Get me sorted out, pronto.

The thing is, like, I have to admit that a rather disturbing amount of my love life That's kind of awkwarded around, it's like the headshot. I mean, it would sort of have to, wouldn't it? What else is there to us? I can't deny that that's true. I can't deny that that's true,

and I feel slightly ashamed of it, but at the same time, you know, uh... But it's not as if we're going to be getting off with Mario people, is it? Oh, Jesus, God, no. Imagine... Ugh. Bluh. P-U.

Yeah, the thing that we haven't talked... There's also these weird, like, carnival slides in flying battery that I love. But the thing we haven't talked about, that I think is this zone's major thing, is the number of really high-speed set pieces that's just you whizzing around loops and like these kind of being picked up by those balls and swung around as well yes yeah which is awesome and rolling cages okay yeah i can confirm

i was a wrong idiot stew was right to chastise me the magnet doesn't work it wouldn't be cool it does work in the death egg zone it does it doesn't it doesn't oh it doesn't okay you know tune in next episode where i'm going to be a wrong idiot again oh i'm going to Well, I thought it did in the death exit. Oh, we're all wrong idiots all the time. But it's like, there are like rolling cages and there are like loop the loops and little kind of like trolleys that like jettison you forward. You zoom around at top speed. There's no end of stuff.

And it's all completely like in a piece with the level. The thing about this whole game or two games is that all of these different things that we're describing in every zone, it never, it doesn't. It somehow doesn't feel like, oh, now this or what now. No, it's like, oh, what now? What's going to be in this place? And it's always stuff. We haven't talked about the bit where you go up onto the sort of chassis on the surface. You climb up those poles with the spinning blades on them.

With like the fan thing. And if you are clever, you can go backwards across them and do a really dangerous zigzag over the blades and get an extra life. Yep. And it's awesome. And I always get that one up. Okay. Whenever we mention something, I sort of want to explain it for any. any listener who doesn't know. These are, these are like tall poles. And when you pass them, Sonic latches

on. And now he's spinning around like an acrobat from his hands, like in a big wide art with his feet pointing right out, spinning around like the whirling blades that are at the top of them. They're just like tall fans. And the propellers. Propellers, that's the word. That is the word. Not California fans, propellers. And you have to, well, because at first, when you're first playing this, you're like, oh, what do we do? And you press a button and it kind of flings him off to the side. But then you, you're if you're clever you work out that you can hold a directional button and

affect which way you go so yes I mean I want to add real quick that you say if you're clever but there is actually no other way to progress so you will figure that out it's just another piece of quite good game design then I guess what I mean is you can figure out that you can go left which I'm not like I'm not like contradicting what you're saying I just want to add

that kind of like that you literally cannot yeah okay there's also a bit and this bit has eluded me for years I know for a fact act it exists. I believe it's an act too, but if you take a particular route, there's like

these magnetic balls and you run onto them very smoothly from the ground, so your momentum carries forward. They're pendulums, that's what they are. And so you run onto the pendulum. And it swings round and it's like, there's like three

half pipes and then three pendulums all in a row. I can't find that bit again for life of me. I know it exists. It does. The route that I always take, I always see those. These are those balls that Stuart was mentioning earlier. Yeah, that's what we were talking about. Yeah, yeah.

It's so cool. As you, while you're in the half pipe listeners, Sonic goes down and then up. And then normally he would just be flung up into the air. But in this particular case, there happens to be a metal ball that, for reasons unexplained he sticks to, which is on the end of, think of a chain chomp, it's on the end of a chain. And as it goes up and round with his momentum, it just delivers him. into the next half-time. And then it happens again.

So your movement is describing this completely smooth waveform up and down and up and down. And it's so fast. It's so good and it feels so good. It is buttery smooth. Mmm, that buttery fisty place. It's battery smooth. That was good. I don't accept that that was bad.

That was good. It was. Thank you. Bye. Thanks for listening to Retan. I mean, what else is there to say about flying battery? We've kind of rinsed it, I think. It's a really very good zone that shouldn't be this good.

We should mention it's got one of those... You have to get up to the top before the lava does bits, but with just... Yes, right at the end. And that's how the whole zone ends with one of those. The floor is rising in a way which doesn't actually make any physical sense. It's just a line... It makes no sense whatsoever. It's just a line that's going up through the stage.

But it means you're going to get it. When I was younger, I found that part quite difficult and demanding. It's probably the trickiest of those bits in this game. I think it's the last one as well. I think it is. Oh, no, it's not. No, it's not the sand bit in Sandopolis. No, yeah, but it is one of the trickiest ones. It is quite tricky. And that takes you all the way. You're going to get squashed if the floor, you know, crushes you between any ceiling and itself. So you have to keep going up, up, up, through every little pipe and wave that you possibly can until eventually you get out to the floor.

the roof. And then it keeps going. So now you're being lifted up on this floor and that then becomes the pole onto which, as we've previously mentioned, a sort of monkey, but egomatic? It's an egomatic with big arms, a little bit like at the end of Sonic 3. In fact, might be the same. And it grabs onto this thing and swings around it. So Robotnik is swinging around in a big arc around this thing, holding onto this pole. I know it's a game, but it's an Unbelievably impractical. Yeah, but imagine having one of them. Think of the things you could swing on.

I'd love to have one of them. Imagine if the poor fucker had like a fry-up before he did this. That's why he's got that weird face on. For some reason, there's a unique... This is probably why in the Knuckles version of the level, it accidentally becomes robotic, when it should actually be an egg robo that he fights every time. Because they've drawn a bespoke sprite for Robotnik here.

It looks a bit like he's like he's like. looking down like there's a bucket there or something he looks a little bit poorly he just occasionally gobs into his yeah okay this is getting very visceral yeah but you know the worst part is when he throws up it's just all eggs all eggs

yeah yeah nothing but egg he's never done a shit in his life oh well he's just been egg bound since like the day he transformed I mean there but that's why he's so angry all the time yeah that's why he's so round and getting bigger. Yeah, it's just full of poos.

I was going to say eggs, but yeah, okay. At least we got it. It's nice to know that we got to poos at some point. Yeah, it's nice that we've come around to the subject once again. Yeah, he's got to get that out of the way, if anything. Of humans' feces. You know, you do need to get your poos out of the way. You have to get them out.

It's bad to hoard them in. And he has a flamethrower jet thing on his head, and you have to hit him at very specific times, and that's that boss. And it's a little bit awkward because he's got spiky house. as well. It's one of the bosses that's actually one of the easiest ones to get hit by. Yeah, it's kind of a tricky boss. It doesn't do much.

And despite being really awkward, it's still pales in comparison to the sheer awkwardness of the Sonic Mania version of this boss, which is awful. I don't remember it right in this moment. Oh, it's a big spider that you have to hit into the spikes on the side of the level. Oh, what makes you say that's a version of this? But the hit box, it's the filing battery boss. Oh, is it? Oh, beg pardon.

Yeah, and it's got this hit box that's just awkward and dodgy, and it's like, why can you just hit the damn thing with your body, like all Sonic Bosses, but they were like, no, no, no, we want to be clever and smart. Oh, they're from the place in the world where they want to be clever and smart. I don't know why that voice was that I just did.

I have absolutely no idea. It would be quite funny if Babaloo was part of like Head Cannon or like, you know, Christian White's who is. The reason there's not been a sequel is because Elka Bonn came and just like beat the shit out of everyone. He's actually now an indicted criminal in a Japanese jail.

You know what I'm going to be. So speak, I think that's the flying battery dull and dust, I think that's the flying battery dull and dusted, I would have to say. And we can move on to the next zone. What happens at the end of it? How does the level actually, like, end and get you into the next one? I think you just jump off, don't you? Yeah, he runs out and he kind of like, he does... Oh, God, see, this is the problem is.

I can't remember if this is something that the ROM hacks have added. But he just, if I remember correctly, he just runs through and bursts out the end. Like, he kind of like bursts out a metal door at the end and just falls down. Yeah, I think that's it. And then he... Because originally that door was meant to be the skisks, the snowboard, right? The snowboard, yeah. And so it actually kind of spins around and looks like he's about to snowboard on it.

That's right. But what actually happens is he beefs it and he lands in Sandopoulos. And you go into the sand and then you got press jump to jump out the sand like in Ice Cap, right? I think so. Yeah, you go like into the sand and you're under the sand. I think so. I mean, I could be thinking of Ice Cap. You know, this is actually true.

Once I was playing this on the Mega Drive, I went into the sand and then a game crash. It was still running, but I couldn't get out of the sand. So it was just like Sonic's dead now. And I looked in the manual and it's like, yeah, it's one of robotic's deadly traps. Did we ever discuss that? I think we may have brought it up initially, yeah, but we might as well review. It's like, in the manual it says that sometimes robotic's like devious traps means Sonic gets stuck in a position where he can't continue. And you'll have no choice but to reset.

And I think that is the most brilliant justification for like cute and missed QA. I'm not saying poor programming because it always are glitches. Everyone misses glitches. It's not possible. It's a remarkably solid game. It's just a very, very funny way to say, like, this game's the size of a tank. We can't check everything.

Well, what I like about that is that it doesn't that kind of... You're a kid, right? You don't know what bugs are. I am a small child of this. Yeah, absolutely. That's precisely what I meant. You don't know the first thing... Go-go-Gaga.

You don't know reality. You know, you don't know about game programming. you don't know about taxes. And so you're reading the manual. This happens to you, right? And so there are two options. You know, either you're sitting there like, I don't know what's happened.

I broke my game. Or the game developers have kind of like, not the game developers, but the manual, whoever wrote the manual, has shifted the blame slightly. So now, like, you're no longer confused about what's happening.

Now you're thinking to yourself, oh, that doctor of botanick, I'll get him this time, you know. It's, um, I'm not. saying, even I'm not Sonic 3-pilled enough to say that like it's good that it has bugs.

It's like 3-pilled? I feel like they handled it well enough. It's got bugs are right. In Hydro City, those fly bombs are you. But Sandopolis, I would say, is one of the least liked zones in the community.

This is everyone's favourite, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. It's very disliked. And I kind of don't know why because it's awesome I do because it was definitely my least favourite back in the day but yeah these

days I'm quite fond of it again and I'll say there's Act 1 pales in comparison to the majesty that is Act 2 because Act 2 for me is one of my single favourite levels in the game I the thing is for me with Sandopolis this is the closest I get

to disliking a Sonic 3 Knuckles level Oh this is going to be a hell of an episode Holy shit. This is like... Yeah. This is the one. I think I agree.

But even then, again, this is me absolutely being Sonic 3-pilled again. Yeah. Stop saying that. Okay. Like, the reason...

I'm not sure... If you gave me the option, I don't think I would change anything. Because the reason that this is kind of slower and more kind of meandering is because it's characterful. You know, it's an ancient

Egyptian pyramid. Yeah. And you are fully exploring the tomb. It is a proper labyrinth and it feels good in that way. It feels spooky. It feels imposing. Yeah, it's actually really good.

You've got the tricks in the traps and the booby traps and the mummy, like, you know, the boobie traps and literally like a ghostly curse and everything. I think, I mean, for me, I actually do understand not liking it, perhaps. For me, it's the absolute perfect

combination of, like, vibes, atmosphere, and gameplay. Because this level pushes back harder than any so far, I would say. That's true. Act 2 of Sandopoulos is legit, quite tricky. Okay, so Act 2. Act 2 is what we've been talking about. Act 1 isn't in the period.

No. It's just in the desert leading up to it. Act 1, I can understand not liking because it's quite unremarkable. It's a desert zone. It's got some interesting stuff. It's got loops that you go through more than once, which is interesting. You don't just go through the loop and zoom off.

You're like, we, we, we, and zoom off. You sound French all the way home. It's got... It's got... Ah, I'll tell you what it's got. It's got quicksand. And at first, you think, oh, no, a level full of quicksand. Oh, I'm going to drown in all this quicksand.

But then how elite you feel. the first time you realize there are patches of quicksand and hold quicksand waterfalls as well that aren't deaths but that lead down to hidden chambers it's dead good and then one of the coolest things

about how Sonic 3 and Knuckles works in general this one thing kind of describes a lot of the game is that you can find something like that a quicksand waterfall that you are sure this time is actually a death one because you're already several layers down into secret turned out to be a way down ones. This one surely will definitely kill you,

but you try it just in case and you fall and you fall and not only do you land somewhere safely, but there's evidence you could have got here by another route as well because leading up to it there's like a sort of a slope that's got steps up that you could have come up

that every little place has different roots to it. Shai, what were you saying, Shai? Dave, that story you just told there about sliding down the sand and uncovering a hidden chamber my eyes are watering I got so excited at that that is so cool

that's such a cool way to describe it well this is the thing about this level is I don't think it plays to the strengths of Sonic the Hedgehog I do find this is the stage when I think back this specific single stage Sandopolis Act 1

I have rinsed Sonic 3 and of course asshole of breakfast for years like I've done everything I've specifically gone out of my way to explore every level and Sandopolis Act 1 I am 100% convinced there's a bunch of stuff I've never seen Yeah yeah There are so many routes through this level

And so many weird different ways you can go Like even to the point like The bits where you're abseiling down by pressing C You can just not do that You can just jump down And you might end up somewhere completely different Okay there's a couple of things I want to say about that For the listeners right

Yeah There are these bits where you're standing at the top of a big deep trench and there's a little handhold thing to clasp on to. Now you've had a load of these in this game and they're usually rope slides that take you down to the next bit. What happens here is it just starts going down

and Sonic will, with new animation, put his feet up against the wall and like, when you press the button he'll kick himself off. And you spin around in a cool way. Yeah, you kind of like twizzle around in the air as the rope takes you across and then... Sometimes you go to the same wall, but sometimes you'll spin around a loop

and go to the parallel. I think that they should have done it in the opposite order. Like, the way that I usually experience it is that the cool, spinny-roundy one comes first. And they actually doesn't feel very good simply rappelling down a wall one comes second. It should have been the other way around. But what both do, as well as all that, when you finish being excited about that new thing, you then get to the bottom. And on each occasion, there, oh, how do I describe this?

Like the wall that you've been abseiling down becomes the ceiling of a little chamber. and at that point you discover that the line that you are going down on is a physics object because as it hits that corner it kind of pivots and you start to swing back and forth so now the rope is like straight down and you're swinging on this

and then you decide when to jump off it's brilliant, it's so immersive everything in this game is like it's a bit honestly Breath of the Wildy where it's like oh I bet this would do this it does I mean we the thing that this says to me

about Sonic 3 and Knuckles and this is like the worst level of the game and we are praising it to the high heavens here. We're sitting here like gushing about it. We're weeping about it. This is what I mean when I say this is the closest I get to disliking the Sonic 3 level because mechanically

it's very start, stop. It's very kind of like trudging like it doesn't play in a vacuum it doesn't play to the strengths of Sonic 3's mechanics. Yes. I don't. I completely agree. Yes, I completely agree with that.

There's a lot of start, stop. There's a lot of like mashing A to jump up sand waterfalls. Yeah. Which is so cool, by the way. What a cool idea. But here is the thing. Like, what I find so impressive, even about Act 1 is its dedication to, again, creating a different mood and a different character to the level. Because just like with ice cap, which doesn't have any ice physics, this doesn't really have,

besides the quicksand, it doesn't have any sand physics that would slow you. you down. Quick interjection. The quick sand is essentially just the oil from oil ocean and something to, in terms of speed. Because when you jump out of it, you're out of it. You don't have to hammer the button to get out of it or anything. Because they knew that would be bollocks. We're looking at you, Super Mario Brothers 3. It is through exclusively the level design and the obstacles that they create the impression of you trudging through this desert and going on little like Indiana Jones style archaeology stunts like abseiling down a big like a big ancient stone pillar

and stuff like that and so like even if it doesn't 100% play to the strength of Sonic 3's mechanics it is completely itself completely unique a completely new tone and style for the game to adopt and isn't like again I wouldn't change a thing about that because isn't that a hundred hundred times more exciting than just do another loop. Here's flying battery again. There's loads of like loop loops and stuff. I mean, I want to say like, what you say about the Indiana Jones thing is spot on, but the game I think also does play

with older Sonic games again a little bit. Like the bit where you go on the sand sort of slide that loops forever. Oh yes. Which is another way of demonstrating this kind of you are lost in the desert. I did. I remember. I remember having to phone my friend to ask how to get out of that. The way you jump, your way you get out of that

is not dissimilar to the way you get out of the similar trap in labyrinth zone. You jump across. It's very, it's very streamlined compared to that. But I think what it does is it's kind of playing on both the labyrinth zone, but also kind of playing on ice cap. It's like the opposite. It's like, you've done ice cap, now you're doing like sand cap.

Yeah. Listeners, what it is, is that there are diagonal crossing slides and you jump across to the other one. It's adding to that thing of like you're in the desert, you're lost, you're one might be seeing things, you know, it's just marvelous

and does it create the most playable level of the game? I would say no, but is it still fucking good? Yes. Like absolutely. Yeah. And that's just Act 1 and I like Act 2 10 times more.

There's one thing There's one thing remaining that we haven't mentioned Which I think actually has quite a big hand in this being a level that is not people's favour. If this is what I think it is, I agree with you. Very oppressive, gloomy, yeah, she. Okay. Before we get to that, I do just want to, I do just want to drive home. Okay, well, I mean, how are you going to do podcasts if you drive home?

Sorry. Stu, you're rascal. So, like, again, it's one of those, like, you're sliding uncontrollably down these, like, sand flumes. Yes. Doesn't feel good. Doesn't feel good. And it's uncontrollable and it starts looping. Yeah.

And the thing is, again, that makes no physical sense of how does that work? But you're in kind of a weird, like, liminal space here. You're in, you're in this great big ancient. urine. Ken, I'm just going to leave. You're going to the rest of the podcast yourself. Dave, I've warned you about constantly saying urine. Sorry.

Specifically said not to do that. You are in this giant ancient tomb, this ancient pyramid. It's things that are a bit spooky. Things are a bit strange and supernatural. And like, you know, there's mirages or maybe mummy's curses come to mind. And that is when that is, again, driven home by Dave. Well, actually, I don't think I was going to say what you're thinking of. Oh, shit.

I was going to say the flipping music is oppressive. it's thick and sticky and it's not very catchy and it's um it's not very catchy i beg to differ well all right but not like da da da all right yeah but not like a sonic tune it's great it's all right but it's it's like you know like in the in the mario desert levels the music is kind of annoying in those it's like for some reason desert levels always have annoying music because it's it's Emphasizing how tricky it is and how hot it is and how you're going to get sucked down. Okay, so... You're going to get sweaty. But yes, it's much more interesting to talk about

what happens in Act 2. No, no, because we haven't talked about... I'm going to bring it home, Shay, what you were saying. This level ends with what I personally hints instead of the low point of the entire game. You stand there for like a... What feels like a full minute... Well, this pyramid rises out of the side.

Now, the pyramid rising is very cool, but it takes a very long time. Then the boss comes out, and it's this big rock monster. I'd completely forgotten. And it's the shittest thing in the game. It might be. Because now, the first time you fight this, the first time you fight this blind, it's kind of cool.

Yeah. You're hitting it, and you can hit it backwards into the sand. Because the way you destroy it is you knock it into the sand pits on the other side of the level, right? Again, kind of mummy's curse, like an ancient, unstoppable, mystical force. Watching the actual pit, Pyramid come up and a door opening it and like this guy come out is really cool. It's really cool the first time you do it. He's a rock gollum is what he is.

He's a big rock gollum. You need to think with your brain rather than brute force. You know, you need to think how to appease this ancient thing, which is to drown him in sand. Yeah, the problem is Sonic bosses are meant to be breezy to me. Right. And this one, the only thing you do, once you've done it once, is you go to the left, you stand in the sand. and you simply wait for it to die. You wait for him to jump towards you.

It's the most efficient way to destroy it. You are no risk of getting hit by anything. He does big monkey jumps towards you a step at a time. And you just let him jump over you and drown in the sand behind your head. And as a result, on replay, it's the worst thing in the game for me. Because it really is just waiting. That's not necessarily fair to the game, but it is the part of the game that is the late least good. That doesn't mean it's bad because it's only about 30 seconds long.

Does it make up for it? Does it make up for it by being quite funny? Um, I mean... This ties into what I was saying, right? Is it's like, mechanically, it's not exactly the most exciting level. It's not the... It doesn't take the best advantage of sonic strengths.

And it foregoes that all in favour of character. And the boss is the exact same thing. And like you say, Stu, the first time through, on a blind playthrough, it's a really cool and worthwhile experience because you are... Like, you're puzzling it. out, you're thinking, okay, so how do you actually deal with this thing?

Yeah. But on repeat playthroughs, it's just, like, exactly like you say, there is a dominant strategy. It's just to stand all the way to the left and wait. Would you like to hear how I would have designed this boss if it was me? Okay. Would you like to know that? Okay. I would have had the same way of destroying it and getting it into the sand, but I would have had it be smart enough that it just, if you're in the sand, it will not jump in there.

Right. My idea is, and this is probably not great. It's still better, I think. When you hit the boss, you know, it collapses and it's just its head. at that point the rock becomes one of those pushable rocks so you break its head and you push it across but after a while it will start blinking at which point you move away from it

then it will reform you hit it again and then you push it some more still a bit boring but at least you're doing something yeah okay that's interesting that's how I would do it personally the way that I would do it is I would literally just make it Crocomyre from Super Metroid okay okay

so you just keep hitting it backwards and so it falls into some sand and then it comes out as a big skeleton, is that what you're saying? Yeah. You know what? No, I would just, I would just like replace Sonic with Sam a Sadden. I would just make the whole thing Super Metroid instead. Yeah, the whole game is just Super Metroid. Okay.

So after that boss, which is a bit of a downer on a replay, but only it's, we're talking 30 seconds here, you know, it's fine. One of my favourite things in the entire game happens, and I really want to talk about it, okay? Yeah, was that? The transition between Act 1 and Act 2 is the coolest shit ever. You stand in front of the door, it opens with this awesome megadrive noise.

It was like, like, blah, blah, blah, like that. The screen fades to black with only Sonic standing there. The level comes back and the music goes, do do do, da da, da, da, da, it comes in really bassy and hard. And it's the awesomely oppressive second act theme. It is brutally oppressive. Although this does lead me. to the only thing that really annoys me about the level is that the way the music goes is

and then you got these trumpets like that and I always want to rev up to the tune of those but you can't because tails mucks it up so it's just like rubbish Sorry, this whole part, the whole Sandoplas bit has just been absolute negative chemistry between the three of us. We've just been bouncing back and forth. But just to pick up on something about that boss there, the Sand Guardian, you can actually bump it, you can actually hit it. You can knock it back and kill it that way.

You can knock it back, but it's literally slower than just letting it come to you. Yeah, exactly, yeah. It's literally slower and just standing in place. It's a puzzle boss that isn't really considered for replays, but then again, then again, the fact that you can kill it in 30 seconds by just waiting kind of does feel like they considered it for replays, you know? Oh, that's how you start. speed run it is by doing nothing. Yeah, I bet in speed run, I bet there's some way to

gimmick it so it like immediately dies. I bet there is some glitch that I don't know about that immediately kills it. But no, Act 2 is for me a genuine highlight of this game. I absolutely love Act 2. I get why people don't because people don't like time pressure. And not only is this game, this level long enough that you could easily get to 10 minutes and die. You're also constantly being hassled by

geists. Here they are. This is what I thought we were talking about before. Let's talk about these guys. This is a really lovely and really cruel little trick. I love how the game sets this up. It's great, yeah. You're doing all these kind of like tricky platforming with pushing bloc. Like,

for example, you've got to push a switch all the way and then it starts slowly ticking back, which makes a door slowly closed. More time pressure. And And then you kind of carry on, and then you get to look the loop, and you're like, Yaldi, cracking, canny wait, mate, love look the loops. You go round the loop, you go up, you think, where are we going now?

You immediately get hit by a spring, like, swatted straight back down onto the top of one of Robotnik's capsules. We've just established in the flying battery that the capsules contain sometimes things you might not want, and it's completely unavoidable, you release the ghosts. like the vengeful spirits of this pyramid who now harass you for the rest of the level. I never thought of this before, but that means that Robotic has got ghost-busting equipment. He's somehow stored those ghosts in that thing.

Listen, we don't know what they're the ghosts of. Maybe they are some animals that died that Sonic didn't rescue. Oh, they're just, they're animals that were just in that part for too long. They're furious at Sonic because he didn't rescue them in time. So tell them about the way they're going to. ghosts work, because it's amazing. Well, the way that the geists work is, I always say geists, because it's inherently funny to me.

It is inherently funny to me. Is that what they're called? Geists. They're called ghosts, but I call every ghost a geist, because it's funny. Oh, okay. It's just one... It's like saying Skellington as a skeleton. Oh, fair enough. Now, the way the ghosts work... At least he's not calling them g-g-g-g-g-gost.

Yeah, well, when Sonic lands on the thing, he kind of does go, Yikes! Zoits! Ghosts! and then he jumps up and his little legs go around really fast and it goes like you know anyway no

the way the ghosts work is there are three of them and they hover around you and at first they are kind of small cute ghosts right then as time wears on the level gets darker and the ghosts get bigger and they can't actually hit hurt you over time

no they can't hurt you at first but once time's gone on long enough and it's more or less pitch black as represented by dark purple, the ghosts suddenly have little devil horns and they have little spike arms and they look pissed.

And now they can hurt you. And every so often they will swoop at you. Now, if you're in a ball, they won't hurt you. Oh, really? But they are constantly swooping at you and they can and will hit you. The only way to stop this

is you have to find light switches in the level, which you then, they're like hooks that you jump onto. Pull them down. The lights go back up. The boast go small again. But once you jump off that light switch, the time pressure returns. Now, the whole level...

As in the light starts going dark again. The whole stage is built on time pressure. Not only of those that you've got the ghost, you've got your own time limit. There's a bunch of those switches which open doors that are very, very limited in how long they're open for. And best of all, there's the bits where sand is pouring up from below and it will kill you. It's bloody hard. Yeah. And it tempts you with power-ups as well.

What you have to do is that you're stuck in these long vertical corridors that you have no way of getting up. And so you have to smash these little corks in the ceiling, which releases the sand and the sand slowly fills the room. So you've got to navigate through this like vertical maze as you're slowly being raised up. Often while you have to push switches to open doors. And the ghosts are trying.

Yeah. And also, yes, running through quite thin corridors with bumps in them, with knowing that as soon as that sand hits, you're basically going to die. This level is the gloves come off. Like, this is the first hard level in this game. And even to this day, it's tricky, I think. And I love that. I love that they made a level like this. I love the ghosts. I love everything about it. It's the perfect level. It's a lot more fun than I thought. Do you know what I mean? It's one of those where you think of it as horrid, and then you play it. The thing is, if you're calm, if you're calm and collected, the ghosts really aren't a problem. There are plenty of light switches. But the problem is, you're in panic mode, most of this level. Because you're getting fucked with each way, and it's great.

Do you know what absolutely fascinates me about this level, by the way? It's the absolute expertise. They took advantage of everything at their disposal. to make the game like this, to make this as stressful and as challenging and as frustrating as possible. Because what you'll notice, if you look at the full level map, is like that enormous corridor ascension sequence, like that enormous ascension sequence as you're like rising up with the sand, you actually start at the top of the level and loop all the way around.

So the level loops vertically, and that's how they do that trick earlier with the flumes that we were describing. but they do the other way around as well so that like you loop your way around so they could create more vertical space for this sequence to be as like tense and as like kind of um stressful as possible to kind of pull the tension tot yeah you know because if they just used the available space it would have just kind of been over too quickly yeah and i i think that's genius i think that is so that's so clever that is like you can tell that these guys knew exactly what they were doing with like the mega drives technology because while you're in it like if you're looking at the full map it's obvious what they're doing but while you're in there of course you have no idea where your Y coordinate is no on the entire map it's like um it's it's like a Disneyland ride it's like the stretching room in the ghost mansion or whatever it plays on you not knowing where in physical space you are I mean, something like we talked about, I love the fact that the rising sand bit

bates you with power-ups. That makes me very happy. Oh, yeah. It baits you to go in. into, you know, almost certain deaths changes to try and get power up. There's a one up that's nightmarishly hard to get. There's like one that's just a rings, but you still fancy going in there, and then you just get crushed. Yeah, there's a ring, a super ring,

and a power sneakers, which at this point is essentially, basically you need it. Okay, again, again, so your greed is being punished in this ancient ejection tomb. Yeah, there we go. Wow. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Okay, okay.

guys and listeners, I'm genuinely delighted because there was one level in Sonic 3 that I wasn't that I keen on and I'm coming out of this podcast absolutely adoring it. Are you joking? That is minted. Well, this is why we're doing this.

This is what this is for. This is one of the best games ever made. It is, yeah. I will fight you everywhere. Well, I mean, it's an ingenious game and it uses everything that it's despite, to create an organic storytelling. And, you know, that's real shit.

Like, that's not us. Literally the only... Imprinting ideas on it. Like, that's what it is. Literally, the only downside to it is it made Sonic fans think that storylines would be a good thing in Sonic games. The only downside to it is it made Sonic fans think that the future Sonic games would be good.

And unfortunately, they weren't. Oh, dear. Sonic 3 and Knuckles is the peak of the series. I don't see how that's arguable. No, that's definitely true. and it's, I mean, it's one of the best games ever made. I mean, I love Sonic CD to death, but it's a step below this. There's one thing they have...

Go on, Chey. I don't know. Like, after a game of this caliber, I think, like, a 25-year refractory period could be forgiven. There's one thing we haven't mentioned about the Sandopolis Zone, which is that those blocks that you have to push and then they go on a little track and you stand on them and right a lot that have got a little grumpy face on that looks like one of my teachers. Aren't they lovely? Oh, I would.

You know the one? Do you know the little grumpy face? No, I don't know the one. I'm not familiar with your teachers, mate. No, not the teacher, the grumpy face. I know the one you mean, yeah. I do know the grumpy face you mean, yeah. I mean, the thing about this world is, um, one thing I could say about this level,

which does make some kind of sense to me is it's very lacking in bad nicks. Suppose. Because, let's face it, why would there be bad nicks there? Why would they be there? Why would, this whole level is almost entirely based around, um, traps and... Oh, do you know, okay, head cannon, Robotic went here,

started filling it up with robots, got haunted by some ghosts, spent all the rest of the time that he had figuring out how to trap them and then legged it. I mean, that's what I take from it, like genuinely. Yeah, I mean, at the end, when you fight robotic in this stage,

it is in a sort of, maybe slightly disappointingly forgettable, maybe, I would say, compared to the rest of the level. It feels like a gimmick in search of an idea that's fun, really. At least you can kill it really quickly, you know. But the actual stage, like, as I've said, I've never understood its negative perception

because I think it's one of the best stages in the game. I'm starting thinking my age. I think it delivers, it delivers on every level. It's wonderful. I did not expect to be coming out of this episode saying, yeah, man, maybe. I'm so delighted. Like, we're about to get to what I think is the best level.

We'll get to that in a minute. But, like, I'm so impressed because that's clearly what it is going for. Yeah. And just, oh, man, that's beautiful. What a beautiful little game this is. It really is. It is a game of sheer beauty. Now, are we done with Sandopoulos?

Have we rinsed that? We've talked about Sandopolis a lot. I can't think of any specific elements. I don't think you've really mentioned what the boss is. The boss is a, I mean, what is the boss? You know, it's a sort of statue thing that Robotnik's hiding in. Yeah, it's like an ancient statue built into the wall, which it turns out has got an egomatic in it

and it kind of stumps forwards and shoots a laser at you. You jump on its armours and when you hit it for some reason all of the kind of armour comes away from it. Yeah, I don't know why. And you've got a few seconds to get a few hits then. It's a satisfying feeling though. And the thing is you just keep doing that

and kill it really easily. It's a satisfying feeling though, isn't it? Yes, it is. You hit it and something that sets off something where a moment, there's a pause. And like a few seconds later, all of these layers of armor start stripping off

backwards as if sucked off by some kind of big vacuum in the behind it. It's very odd. No one make a joke about that. I'm not going to... Nobody make a joke about that. Like, because that boss is quite knockabout. The only thing that I don't really understand with this book... Because the strange thing is, is that you like... You know, it's this great big statue built into the wall and then it comes to life, you know, and start slowly marching towards you. You jump on its hand and then you jump and you hit the jewel in its forehead.

Yeah. Now, at that point, the armour gets knocked backwards off to reveal Dr. Robotnik sitting in his wee machine. Oh, that's right. That's when you find out. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's kind of like, oh, ha ha, it's a joke. You know, this is, this is. And if it were just you hitting Robotnik eight times from then on and it was like, he tried to give you a wee fright. Then I think that would be an excellent little joke at the end of a stressful level. You're right there. The one thing that throws me is the fact that the armor comes back. And when I, like, like, this. kind of the façade like re-establishes itself. And that might be the pause I'm thinking of. Does it go off immediately but pauses before it comes back or something? Yeah, like it goes off immediately and then it's kind of like a second or two later.

It kind of like, as if the animation has been played in reverse, it just kind of magnetizes back onto them. And I'm not, I don't know what that is. It's a little bit like this will do. We're done, you know. I don't think it has any, I mean, the attacks, it just kind of walks forward. I'm not sure. I think it might shoot lasers, but it never lives long enough to do that.

Yeah. Yeah. So for me, it's a little bit like, I mean, the fact that it's so breezy is nice because it means like, it doesn't really, you know, you're not kept waiting with this crap. And to be perfectly honest, by this point, I'm usually hypersonics, so I just miss him. This is the level usually where I get my last super emerald.

So I think it's doable on flying battery, but I usually end up doing it on this stage. But I don't mind it because the level itself is, so demanding, it's not so bad to have a breezy little boss at the end, you know, it's fine. So, yeah, Sanopoulos, bang as own, to be perfectly honest. Mostly act two, I would say, mostly act two. But I love it. And how cool it is, that it's very clear. in act one you're not in a pyramid and then in act two you enter the

at the end of that one you enter the pyramid and then you're in a pyramid it's it's it's i know that's really simple but it's really cool well it's one of the things that i like the most about sonic uh and knuckles is that it does clearly differentiate between the two zones two acts are very different now the next zone has the most pronounced example of that in the entire series of course okay uh the next zone as much But it's like, forget Sonic 3 and Knuckles. Forget Sonic, the series. This might be like my favourite level ever.

This genuinely might be like my, like the, if someone were to ask me, what's your favourite stage or bit or level or biome, as we say nowadays? It may be Lavarief Zone genuinely. This is breathtaking. You know how good this zone is. It's pretty effing good. I have to agree with you on that. I think it's my favourite zone in terms of music at the very least.

Oh, my God, the music. Oh, yes. Right. I'll tell you what the music for Lava Reeves Zone is. It's like, you know, when you've got, in all your life, you've had an album, and you love this album. But there's a couple of in-betweeny songs sort of late on that you don't really give enough time to. And then when you're an adult, you wait, you realize, wait, that's my favorite song in the world, actually. That's what this is. It's not the one anyone thinks of when they think of something.

Nick 3 and Knuckles straight away but it's so classy and it's so good and the tunes and especially after all that oppressive boom boom boom boom in the previous one

now you've got this laid back jazzy tune it's just great it's got a fantastic I mean it sounds like there should be vocals you know it's classic dreams come trueish kind of like

thing right I mean and then maybe not dreams come true that's you know how Green Hill has vocals No, I, like, yes, absolutely. I think you're absolutely right. It sounds fantastic.

When you said it should have vocals, that's exactly what I thought of. Yeah, it's fantastic. Just an unbelievable tune with a fantastic chorus, fantastic bridge to the chorus. Yeah. You know, it's all just, it's outstanding. As at the actual level, it's the most, as I mentioned, this is like, God, I could probably fill a podcast alone with talking about this one, but let's try not to. Lava Reefstone initially is exactly what you'd expect

In the it's a sort of Overgrown rock formation Kind of caves Full of fire and robots And as it goes on You start to get the impression That this is some kind of a quarry You know

You've got huge like structures That have been basically smashed through it It's stop me if I'm wrong Like that's how I feel about it in general I always just think of it as volcano level, but not just the volcano level, like, oh, that's one of the, you know, ice volcano, but actually you feel like you are descending through these lava caves. But then, yes, there start to be trolleys that seem to have functions for something and machinery.

Well, like, there's a lot of industry down here. There's, like, I don't even know where to start. I mean, shall we start with the kind of... No, I think we save that for the climate. Oh, yeah. But, like, sorry to skip ahead a little bit. No, no. But like, the boss of this level, the boss of Act 1, that is to say,

is you don't even realize it, but it's such an amazing little bit of foreshadowing. You go through this entire level, you know, with all the lava and all the, like, industrial robots, the mining robots, even complete... There's like a big complicated spright. It's a large sprite that it's like, it's almost like a cat poistering, like making biscuits.

And it's like drilling down and you bop it a few times. And then it destroys the floor and the whole floor comes out from under you. And you have to land in a little rock instead of landing in the lava. Do you remember when that same little mini bus thing, well, it's not even a boss, turned up as a boss in? I think was it, Metroid Fusion that guy's in? Yeah. Oh, security robot B-O-X.

Oh, thanks. Okay, right. I didn't know you had the specific number for it. Metroid Fusion's literally my favorite game ever. Like, I will... Don't get me started. So, like, there's industry here, right? There's Robotnik is clearly ramping up his operations down here.

And the boss is, like, almost unintelligible right now. It's just like a big hand, like an enormous hand that emerges from underneath, like, emerges and just tries to clamp down in Sonic. Yeah. And you get out the way and you jump on it and it goes, it goes, pop its fingers, and it explodes and then comes back down. You don't know what that was.

No. Yet. Yeah. You don't think about what it was, because why would you yet? Like, but this is, this is where, like, the full scope of Robotnik's plans really come to fruition. And this is how you make a. menacing villain without making them like this is how you make such a comical character a threat yeah he doesn't like he doesn't need to boast about like oh i will eat your black heart no zavok or

whatever heck um i don't know why i was so gun-shy but swearing there sorry like you know he doesn't need to say that it's just like he can be like this big rotund comical buffoon yeah but you still take him seriously because because of what he's doing the effect that he is clearly having his clear competence for industry I mean like we're burying I'm not not that I'm going to skip ahead obviously

but we're burying the lead because what he does in this level is the moment it's the best moment in the entire Sonic franchise as far as I'm concerned absolutely amazing we'll get to it obviously but we all agree that that rules

completely rules. Absolutely. And it starts early on in this level, because there you are running through these, you know, this normal level. And now and then you'll come to a wide open area. And when you're in a wide open area, you're in the underground caves and caverns and there are crystals hanging down from, it looks so big these caves. You're really in this giant underground space. And if you're looking carefully enough, in the distance, just poking down between, What appear to be natural pillars of rock holding the ceiling up is the face of the death egg. You are underneath where it is, where it has landed, and it's just looking down in with this gentle glow to its eyes in the distance, far away. Like, you probably won't even notice it your first time through if you're not looking for it. No. Yeah. It blends in with the details of the cavern wall. And as the two acts continue, the face gets bigger.

And it's like, okay, the way that they do this, the way that they do this is like, you know, you reach a segment that has a wall in the background, whether those be rocks or whether that be like robotic, metal or whatever. You know, you pass through a cave, as it were, within this giant cave. And then you come at the other end and like at certain points, they'll have replaced it. the background with one that has a bigger version of the death egg. And do you know what it puts me in mind of the most? What? It's Majora's mask. It's like just having this big face looming over you,

getting closer and closer and closer, and there's nothing that acknowledges it. Like the game doesn't stop you and go, done you're done, look at that. It's just this weird, ominous kind of feeling that's hanging over the entire level. Can I interject with something real quick? Absolutely.

I've pulled this level up on YouTube, and I never noticed that before in my entire life. What? I never noticed it. I knew it was there at the end, obviously, when you see it at the end. I never noticed in the background, and I never noticed the eyes glowing, and now this game's even better. Yep. Sonic 3 and Knuckles. It's what it is, is it's a continuing.

We're talking about when they... It just keeps on giving. We're talking about when they set things up. This is a continuation of the thing they set up in, like, Mushroom Hill Zone, where going to different areas increases what Robotnik is doing and of course in this case it's just that you are getting

physically closer to where this thing is Yeah What this level does What this level does for me that I really appreciate is it's the absolute gameplay opposite of Sandopoulos. It's rammed with stuff. There are bad nicks everywhere.

There are spikes and fire and switches and just everything constantly is happening around you. You are in the middle of something. You are in the middle of some industrial stuff happening. It is, again, completely organic storytelling. There's the pipelines everywhere, you know? that everything, it's just flawlessly done. The whole thing feels alive, which is the complete opposite of Sandopoulos Act 2, which

we're literally dead. And that's not, I mean, that's what it's meant to feel like. Exactly. They are saying to you, like, you are, this is a different type of challenge to the previous level. Yeah, because, like, it is throwing something new at you, both mechanically and aesthetically, like every few seconds in Act 1. Like, there is a bit, a completely unique bit, that is.

is the raddest thing in existence at this point. This would have blown my tiny little child mind when there's like a half-pipe ramp. It's not a look-for-loop. It's like a bevel. It's kind of like you run kind of like round this big, what it called, like a big berm. And then there's a ramp that flicks you up.

So you're heading like left to right and you go around this weird like three-dimensional slope. And Sonic has, if not completely unique, than very rarely seen sprites for going for the perspective and everything of him going around this half pipe berm and then launching off so you go left to right go round it and then you're going right to left yeah it like it feels almost like it's moved you into the foreground a little bit even though it hasn't it's unbelievably cool yeah and like that is shown to you once for a few seconds and then discarded yeah why'd they put that in like all it does is

create work for them but for us it's it i don't know what it does but it just it just makes it feel like there's no end to what can be in this i mean i i'm feeling like that right now because like i mentioned i never noticed that death thing before and that's i mean not i don't i think that's really easy to miss yes like you i'm not looking for it i'm not looking at the background so now another thing has added to this game that makes me like it even more yeah you only really notice it when you become like it is now up to 15 out of 10 yeah you know like the statues like the sonic statues if you climb up to the top of hydro city it's like that once you're obsessed you start looking everywhere one thing i want to know about this level as well real quick besides that

hydro city if you're knuckles and you right start of hydro city you play as knuckles fire it up shay play as knuckles fall down the waterfall at the start like does he fall down the water's okay anyway left of the level left to the level and just start climbing up the wall and if you go all the way to the ceiling You will see that the ancient echinors have made statues of Sonic the Hedgehog as you finally see the top of the background art, and it's the only time you can ever see that. I love it. Oh, my goodness gracious me, folks.

Fire it up, Shay. This is a journey of discovery. Okay. Something I want to say before we move on to Act 2, though, although we can't move on to Act 2 without... This level, the way that it does create its mood, the way that it does tell its story in ways that are quite subtle, as well as, you know, the blatantly obvious cutscenes at the end of the levels.

But the fact that when you come into it, it's collapsing around you. You are landing on collapsing blocks and platforms and rocks everywhere. Gives you this impression of, like, this place is barely holding together. This is a very, very unstable place. And Robotnik's not held by putting all his shit in all the walls, basically. I think it's absolutely brilliant. Well, the floor is constantly crumbling in Act 1. again, inside of a volcano.

How perfect is that? And you're breaking through the walls as well. Like, that's also worth knowing, I think. The, there's installed those elevators that you have to do a spin dash to move them up and down. Like, to make it feel like you're going through almost like a mine that's been a man-made space, you know? Like, Robotic's been here and he's been doing something.

He's been looking for something. What's he been looking for? What's he been doing? You know? And then, of course, act two, you get to the end of act one. You fight those hands. you mentioned. And when you destroy them, what happens? I mean, the entire zone dries up. It dries out. I don't know how to describe it. Okay. Sorry, can I take charge of this bit? Because this is...

Yeah, yeah. This is my... Okay. So, you reach the end of Act 1, you destroy the big hand. What was that? Who knows? You know, at this point, you don't know. You know, this is knockabout. The first time, if you missed the death egg at the beginning, like Stu did, this is your first real moment of oh something's going on because the lava crystallises and the music that starts playing

is the same music you've been hearing every time you hit the emerald chamber every time you entered a giant ring and found all the chaos emeralds surrounding the master emerald this music was playing and that's the moment of like didn't look dissimilar to this either you know it's the same colours and

And this is the moment where you're like, oh, I'm here. Yeah. Like, it's electrified. It's incredible. Even describing it as giving the goosebumps. Yeah. You realize you've come the long way round to where you got teleported off to. It wasn't another dimension.

It wasn't a magic place you've got here by all of this work you've done. But other than the obvious visual and audio cues, you know, you know this is special because this ain't a remix of the Lavariche music you're somewhere else entirely you are not in the next act of the same zone the feel of Lava Reef Act 2 is nothing like Act 1

it doesn't show almost any of the same obstacles it's new it's a new zone it's gone from like well of course lava like hot reds to like turquoise and blues and crystals yeah there's crystals growing out of

And the music is melancholy. It's not like, what's the word, like New Jack kind of beats. You know, it's melancholy. It's like mystical and sad and interesting. And what the hell's going on? And the level slows down as well. Like the level isn't quite as like chock a block as the first one in terms of throwing everything at you. It's still got a load of interesting stuff.

But it's not as frantic with it. Yeah. It's, oh, what, what a beauty, what a beauty. Oh, Laverifso, Mariemann. So, Act 2, as soon as act one, it's end of Act 1, it crystallises. Yeah. As discussion, now dealing with deep blues and purples and not reds, which to me gives the impression, now, maybe I'm wrong on this one, it's just a sort of vibe I get.

What you're in now is lava reef unspoiled, more or less. There's not quite, there is tech there, but it's not robotnik tech, you know? Robotnik's there, and he destroys it later, as we all discuss. But until that point, there's not really as much lava. there's not as much anything. There's no, not as many bad, only those little stones that have, is that they're hiding under it, you know?

No, they've still got the, um, eye stalks that like pop out small. Toxo misters. Yes, sorry, Toxomistas. Of course that's what they call. Right. Can you, can you guys explain to me? Is there a reason why I spent the whole life not sure if they were Toxomistas or Toxommeisters?

Is that, is that, was I looking at the languages again? Is that what's happened there? I don't know. This is, this is, this is the, I think this is, the first time I've ever heard their name, to be honest with you. Oh. Yeah, well, they're toxicomisters anyway. And I think it's because they're, what they are is they're a little pole with an eye on the top and they release mist that is toxic.

But I thought it was because they were like a little Mr. Toxic man. Doxo Misters. It's, it's just occurring to me exactly what you thought and how you reached that point. And I guarantee that I would have thought the same thing if I were, if I had read the instruction booklet as a kid. Yeah, the Toxo Misters. Hello, sirs. And then you've got the female version of Toxic Misses. We've all got one of those,

ain't we, lads? You know what I was drinking? I set them up, he knocks them down. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Apologies to all the wonderful women in my life have been great. Lava Roof Stone, though, this is the problem with Lava Roof Zone, is there's just, the thing for me with Lava Roof, it's all about that end sequence,

and I don't want to skip over the middle because it's great. Yeah. I'm sorry, I think the gravity of that has just pulled us in. I think we need to blow our loads. I think we just need to talk about it. So it starts with a flight of stairs. Yes. There is no indication from the fact that as you're climbing those stairs, that that death egg face is right there.

Yeah, and you did, you had noticed that one, presumably. You are approaching the death egg. Now, once you reach top of those stairs, you look up and you see the Nuxmeister. There he is. Mr. Nuxmister. Yeah, the Nuxmeister. Noxomister Standing there

He's got a big rock And you're looking at him And Sonic's looking up spright In this game is quite funny It almost looks like he's begging Nuckles is like saying Please don't But he does

Knuckles pushes it You're caught in the rock It rolls you down Down down Yeah I always thought it was a big ice cube But I think it's a giant Crystal I think it's a giant

Uncut lump of gem Well this is a little bit jarring At this stage because this is the first time that we have seen Knuckles in three zones. Yes, it is. This is the first time we've seen him since the beginning of Mushroom Hill. And this is the first time this entire game that he's stopped off to do his little like chuckle and then lead you into a trap.

Yeah, and you know why? It's because he nipped off into another ring and he's been here ever since. Yeah. Oh my God, of course, yeah. I bet. Though I do wonder when the thing is that, I mean, he's not because you play as him in Knuckles mode. Oh, yeah. He goes to all the levels.

Sorry, but in In Knuckles mode, am I right in saying this that when you play as Knuckles, you don't have to have the ghosts in Sandoplets? Am I imagining that? I think that's true as well. I believe that's correct, yeah, because Knuckles is too savvy. Knuckles wouldn't fall for that.

He knows his island. Yeah, but, okay, now, getting back to the end sequence of this zone because it's mind-meltingly good. Now, you get knocked down off the screen. Yeah, he pushes the priest, and you land... And you get tumbled with it all the way down the stuff.

You land back in the fire a bit of Blava Reef with some lava below you and in the background the death egg and you're like okay here comes the boss the death egg's eyes light up and flash the entire screen and when it comes back everything's fucked

The death egg itself we're now so close to it we're now so close to the death egg that it's bigger than the screen now so it's already scary and then strike everything's lava The platforms you're standing on collapsed so you will take a hit if you're not immediately moving.

You have to get on the right platforms. Then dreaded auto-scroll sequence begins. And this sequence is the hardest bit of the entire game. Yeah, probably. In the sense that you will die if you are not playing right here. There is no second chances. You take a hit, you're probably going to die. And what you're taking a hit from is in the background,

you see Robotnik show up in his egomatic thingy, and he's just launching missiles at you. So as the screen auto scrolls, you've got these targets appearing, and so you have to, like, avoid that. And these batteries, barrages of missiles are all coming out, and they're destroying the platforms. So you've got to be across them for that reason as well. Yeah, and you're jumping across quite wide collapsing platform gaps with instant death below you, which also collapse under you. Yeah, and before you know it. This section, this section is quite short.

Yes. But the impact that it has is unbelievably great. Yeah. And, of course, it gets better from there. It just gets better from there, really. This is the moment you know you're at the end game. This is the moment you know that you have reached the climax. Well, I'll tell you why as well.

I mean, that's the messed up thing is that this, the rest of the game is end game. Yeah, from here on it's end game. From here on, it's one long sustained line. A thing that happens here, like a pig coming. A thing that happens here like a pig coming. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think it meant approaching.

Like, oh, no, a pig's coming. No, I'm ejaculating. It's just like this. It's like as soon as you see a pig approaching, that's the rest of your life. You'll never escape it. I'm both impressed and disgusted at how quickly and accurately

you pulled that bit of knowledge out for the joke. Well, to be honest, when you learn that pigs have 30-minute orgasms, it's all you think about. You're trying to live up to that for the rest of your life? I haven't really thought about it in a while, if I'm being honest. I was too impressed by Lava Rief zone.

The next thing that happens is you arrive at a lava waterfall, a lava lake and lava waterfall. And as you go down it on platforms that are going down it, this is the first time in the game that it hasn't looked friendly in any way. Everything in this game, whatever oppressive situation you're in, at least it looks like Sonic. This bit actually starts to look like another game, like a bigger boy's game. Because the whole screen, yeah, the whole screen. is just lava going down. And there's this brilliant heat haze ripple effect that's going up in lines across the screen.

And you can see it rippling the background, you know, the death egg as you go down there. And down you go into the depths of hell. It's really scary. Yeah, yeah. And of course, once you reach the bottom, you are fighting this boss that... What happens is that you're on a slope platform

that slides towards robotic as he bursts out of the lava in this spiked machine you can't hit. He goes to one end of the screen, and it causes everything to tilt so that he's at the lowest point, and platforms are sliding towards him. Remarkably precise jumps. Yeah, you've got to jump from platform to platform as they slide down the diagonal. And it's lava between the platforms. You can't touch the ground.

He's dropping bombs, which then slide down into him. And now, what this says to me as a piece of, again, organic storytelling, is it's almost like robotic has gone, you know what, I'm sick of this, I'm killing this fucker. I'm done with this He can't even jump on me anymore Forget it, you're done And I love that It's almost like he's desperate He's just like no

You're not getting to the fucking death egg I know what you did last time You're not getting in my death egg You know my death egg's well good You can't come in Like what I love about it Is it just the most sustained An intense bit of actual

Honest to goodness Straight up traditional platforming In this game is a boss fight Because he hits himself. He throws the bombs, he landed in the lava, and they get sucked into him and he hits himself. So all you have to do is survive. All you have to do is just jump on the platforms. In the incredibly high-pressure situation.

This, I will say that this is the hardest bit for me in the game. I always die on this. It feels to me like a Sonic CD boss. Yes. Because you're not directly hitting it. That's very apt. Now, if you're lucky enough to get to this with a fire shield, this is kind of a joke. Oh, yes.

Yeah. Well, this is, again, what I love about this is that they get, if you have a fire shield and you can avoid the non-fire obstacles well enough to get to this point, then it's a laugh. But I can't. They give you a fire shield on the way down the lava. There's a fire shield there. But I always lose it. Yeah, you'd be savvy enough to look for it, though. Well, yeah, yeah.

But I always lose it. No, I think you have to. Don't you have to go over there to get on the platform. No, you don't know. Oh, okay. You can just stand there, and if you stand there, it's very easy to miss, actually. Oh, okay, then. Yeah.

But I always lose it. I always get it. And then I always lose it at some point. I must either just hit a bomb or hit him or something. I don't know what it is. The thing is, if you have the shield, it's quite easy to get complacent. Yeah. And get hit by the bomb.

If you're using the dasher quite a lot, you know, I mean, it's still quite tricky to be on a moving platform and dodge things that are coming towards you. Yeah. Well, especially because if you get sucked down into Robotniks, like, you'll lose the shield as well. So you have to be fairly precise. You kind of need to stick fairly precisely to the middle of the screen. Yeah. But I do just love

that the game goes, okay, here is a fire level. We have given you this fire immune shield throughout the game. And if you collect it, we're not, they don't like break their own rules. They don't go, uh, nah, it doesn't It doesn't work in lava. It only works in fire. They just go, yep, you're immune to that then. Yeah. Well, it's a, it's a game that has consistent, like, basically, consistent mechanics,

even when that might neuter something they intended to be quite difficult. It's gone, like, well, whatever. And I think that's more valuable because it allows you to formulate a strategy. And it doesn't subvert that strategy or say, nah, well, that would make this boss too easy, so you can't do that. Yeah. Like, I think that is, I've never encountered a scenario where I have felt that was the wrong decision. Well, to me, it's superficially similar to sequence breaking in that you have, you get the feeling, you get the vibe,

like you get to feel like you've got one over the game. Yeah. When the game knew exactly what you were doing. And it's hard to explain, but I do understand it. It's that well done, you got here with the fire shield, now this is going to be a bit easier. It's going to be a bit different. It feels like the game is respecting and rewarding your investment because you have gone, oh, I'm in the fire thing and I could be immune to fire. Yeah.

So you think about that. That means that you are into the game. You're thinking about it. You're like, you have picked up on all of its rules and you're trying to put them into practice. You're trying to apply them in a situation, in a practical situation. And I think it is like, I find it very disappointing when a game doesn't respect that. When, like, you come up with a solution that the game then either just because the developers didn't think of it or more egregiously because the developers did think of it and went, no, no, we want this to be difficult, though. Yeah.

I think that is missing the forest for the trees and that it is not respecting that you are into this. you are invested. It's very like sequence breaking in that regard because it's like if you can put the pieces together well enough to go, oh, hang on a minute, if I do this and this and this then I can get there early, even though I'm not supposed to. And again, that's you into the game. That's you enjoying yourself. But I want to say something real quick, which is relevant to what you're saying, which is there's something that the 3D games largely don't do with the exception of adventure and generations, oddly enough, because some generations, I remember seeing people play the chemical plant zone in that and

completely subverting it, like going on crazy alternate routes I didn't even know existed that were clearly actually planned out by the developers. Like at the beginning, you got this whole twisting network of pipes and you think when you're playing it, that's just scenery. I'm, you know, it's like the people who spin dash up the buildings in Speed Highway on Sonic Adventure and it turns out that's legit. Yeah, it turns out they're stuff up there.

They're stuff up there. They knew what you were doing. That's the difference between a good Sonic game and a pad Sonic game. Yeah, right? Yeah, absolutely. A good Sonic game is a game about freedom. Maybe freedom within certain parameters, yes.

But within those parameters, it lets you play how you want. And then, you know, a bad Sonic game, locks you into playing Poeo Poeo with Dr. Robotic for some reason. Who knows? I don't know. I'm joking. That's really disingen. I love that bit. But you get what I mean, though. The game is going, here's the playground.

Have your own fun of the playground. You've got to get to the end, yes, but you get to the end how you want. And then if it locks you into one specific sort of thing, one specific way of playing, then it's doing it wrong. And Sonic needs to be better than that. And that's why Sonic

3-8 Knuckles is the best. That's why Sonic CD is the second best or the best equally, because it lets you do what you want. Now, I think that that brings us to a point of maybe wrapping up the episode after we finish with Blather Reef. I did want to just add something like about this final sequence. Me too. What really, really impresses me about this entire thing, from the moment that you see the death egg in the background to when Knuckles crashes you down through the floor to the moment when the death egg's eyes light up and the palate changes, what impresses me is. the scale of it. Like, it's not just that the death egg is bigger than the entire screen. It doesn't fit on the screen. That background literally does not fit on the screen. It's not just that. It is the

fact that there are tiny little details, like little specks of light, like the light in a window in a distant skyscraper, that make you realize how big this thing. is actually supposed to be. It is enormous. And the fact that one, like, glow from it, one, just one not even gesture, because it's not

alive, it's just this, like, unfeeling face. Just its eyes light up. It's very creepy. Completely changes everything about the level. All of its surroundings are completely dominated by this giant face in the sky.

It makes you feel like an ant. It makes you feel like an ant. Nick, you maintain it. Well, it's the first moment in the Sonic series where you kind of go, wow, this robotic guy is kind of for real. And what happens, I mean, not to spoil it, well, not to say, spoil it, everyone knows,

but not to get too far ahead, but that's not even the most devastating moment of scale in the whole game. As we'll discover, when we reach the very end in the next episode, I expect. We expect. This is when the gloves come off, and the rest of the game is you force,

those gloves back on, except up his ass. Yeah, this is how far we're going, listeners, but the next thing that happens in the game, even, is just like amazing. The rest of the game is wall to wall the best things

you've ever seen in your entire life. You know, it's an... I know this is a controversial thing to say, but I'm going to say it anyway. It's like an apology for Sonic 2's end game. Oh! In my opinion. It's like, yeah, sorry about that. Sorry about the fact that Sky Chases crap.

Sorry about the Wing Fortress being a bit dodgy. Sorry about the fact that Death Egg is just two rooms. Here's a proper ending for this series. That's interesting to hear you say that, because I remember it being beloved and iconic, all of that stuff. I mean, you know, it is, but people don't understand. In retrospect, I see what you mean by all of those things, yeah. I kidding.

I don't hate, I like Wing Fortress. I like Death Egg, but this to me, there's no contrast. There's no contest. Like, you get Sonic 3 and Knuckles and you get Sonic 2, and something 2 might as well be in the toilet with all my dumps. Like, forget it, mate. Yep. And on that bombshell, sorry, Top Gear reference,

on that discussion of my dumps, once again, I'd like to bring this episode to a roaring climax, a 13-minute pig roaring climax. Now, Dave, Bulma, Mr. Bulma, where can our listeners find and enjoy you on the internet. Well, you can find and enjoy me, rabbiting on about Sonic as much as you like.

Sonic, the comic, the podcast is the name of my show, as you well know, because you all listen to it already on the back of these episodes we've done. Don't you, don't you, don't you, don't you? Of course you do. STCTP, which stands for Sonic the Comic, the podcast. That's how you remember the letters.

STCP dot zone, which, if you want a way to remember it, fits the EastEnders theme tune very well. That is where you all find... STCP dot Z-O-W-N-W-D-W-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D. But it does, though. That bit. It does. It does. It does.

It does. Whoa. It flippin does and all. Yeah. Okay, so let's put them together. S.T. Z O-T-T-P dot Z. It's a good podcast with Chris and with David.

It's a talk about the stuff children used to buy in 1993. You know how. In America, they had some Sonic comics, but they were nothing to do. You got you, it's for free. Sorry, go on. Yes. Well, here in the UK, we had a Sonic comic at the same time, actually based on the games. It was actually based.

Yes, and we took, well, it flipping was, we're into the ones right now where Lou Stringer is basically leading children's revolts and teaching us about fascism and stuff. Yes. Like, in direct calls to action. We go through that and we talk about each issue, but also we look at the adverts, the game reviews, everything about the time. Why, I even every issue, I crack open my diary, my teenage diary from the two weeks that issue was out. And you get to find out what it was like to be alive then and a Sonic fan. That is what it's about. I am going to keep listening solely for the fact that I'm waiting for the diary entry about wanking.

I know it's going to come eventually. and I just really want to hear it. That's what the entry says. I looked down at my trousers earlier, and I said, hello. That's not. Let's not. Shea, Mr. Shea, Donald, where can our listeners find your fun things on the internet and enjoy them? You can find me on Twitter at SheaM-A-U-S-H-A-U-S-H-A-Y-U-S-H-A-Y-U-W-Rubbish.

You will find me talking rubbish, no doubt. deep, deep in the Pokemon minds where we're coming out of the other end, folks, where we're getting towards the end of this. But yes, you can also find me on Twitch at, I've been doing a lot of streaming, mainly Pokemon again, sorry, at Twitch.tv.4 slash ShaymeA underscore,

and you can just punch Shaymey into YouTube and you will find my videos and perhaps some streams. Yeah, and if you dig back far enough, maybe some embarrassing forum posts, who knows? the yeah because you can say you're gearing up for another big old video aren't you I am indeed I'm gearing up for another it's threatening 10 hours oh Jesus well that's a real show me a video you just make a small video well this is it'll be renting for a week

because I have cleanly knocked myself like all evidence to the contrary I have I have knocked myself right out of doing this I've completely scunnered myself on doing a video project that big again and now I'm just like okay I know how to say a lot more with a lot less because the thing is is that with like more specificity

comes like more justification that you have to do like the more broadly applicable you can make a sentence the less people are going to challenge you on it and the more people are going to think you're correct so yes I think this is probably going to be the last big big project I honestly don't blame you

it seems like they must consume you completely I just can't even yeah this has been hell this has killed you're like Christian bailing the machinist except with making a YouTube video about Pokemon that's an ex-obst reference for you there

I only know him from Batman I'm like when Batman tries to crawl out the hole yeah that's exactly what it's like yeah piss piss bastard bastard piss piss bastard bastard Anyway, I'm Stuart Chip, as you well know. This has been Retronauts. Thank you very much for listening.

If you like Retronauts, if you thought that that bollocks that we just did was good, you can support Retronauts. And if you go to Patreon.com for slash Retronauts, you will find many ways to do so. But the most compelling way, in my humble opinion, is for a mere $5 a month or £3 something in English money, probably.

You will get not only one, you'll get two extra episodes every month, completely exclusive to Patreon. So all the scrubs you don't pay You won't be hearing those episodes You'll be on top of the world But not only that You get the weekly episodes early as well

A week early So by the time the scrubs get around to them They'll be like Oh my God, that Sonic episode was so good And you'll be like Yeah, I heard it I'm on to like the asterix episode now Don't really care about that anymore

You know And also for that $5 you will be getting access to diamond fights Tremend Fights tremendous this week in retro columns Which they also record as a podcast So you can listen to them And they're very good and often very personal and very interesting,

and I recommend them very highly. You'll also be able to access the Retronauts Discord so you can argue with me in real time, and I will swear it, you know, we'll get told off. Thanks very much. I've got a book out probably by the time this goes live, and it's called All Games Good, although I'm pretty sure by the time this goes live

it's going to be completely sold out, so we're out of luck. We're just in the odd chance of a couple of copies left. You know, limited run games or possibly elsewhere. I'm not even 100% sure where they're going to be sold just yet, So that's exciting. Thank you very much. I'm very bad at any podcast.

So what I'm going to do is I'm going to do the East End of Steam again with STCPTP.Zone. STCP.Zone. I need to get me one. I wonder if you can add, like, Che Mae to the Holly Oaks theme or something. What I've realised is that it fits, if you say it wrong. It isn't STCP, it's STTP.

it's ST-C-T-T-P-Z-O-N. Yeah, that's better. Okay, I got it wrong every time. That's great to know. Thanks for that. Yeah, every time. And it's specifically our URL, so people won't be able to go there now. Sure, you got it.

You've got it wrong every single time. It's all right. I forgot to say I'm called Demage Martin Dave as well, so it's all right. That's all right. Everyone already knows that. Well, you know, sounds to me like, Stu, like you've been a little bit anachronistic. Nice. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-.

Thank you.