Retronauts - 708: Sonic's Rough Transition to 3D

Episode Date: August 11, 2025

The Stu, Dave, and Seumidh dream team returns to tackle the contentious issue of Sonic the Hedgehog’s rough transition into 3D gaming. We were there, and it was. Retronauts is made possible by listener support through Patreon! Support the show to enjoy ad-free early access, better audio quality, and great exclusive content. Learn more at http://www.patreon.com/retronauts 

This week in Retronauts, can you see the sun is shining on me? It makes me feel so free, so alive, it makes me want to survive. Wow, that was the exact cadence of the, ooh, the disgraced TV presenter doing the rap. Um, Barrymore. Ah. And I'll see you when you get there. Okay. I got there eventually.

Yep. Well, that's going to land with our US listeners. That's going to be, that's going to be, no, it's in. It's in. No, it's in now. Like, you've, you have fucked it, mate. You're a Retronauts episode that is opened with a reference to disgraced entertainer Michael Barrymore. Am I there for the Barrymore of Retronauts?

No, I'm not. Let's not even go there. Hello, I'm Stuart Jip. You just heard Dave Bommer. He's a very naughty boy. And also with us is Shemann MacDonald. Hello. Hello, Shay.

How are you? Hello. And, uh, I don't know. I mean, this probably is no surprise to you whatsoever for multiple, uh, compelling reasons. We're going to be talking about, uh, hang on. on um just sorry sorry um a sonic today was allic oh god yeah i know here we go again now what i want to talk about today is i wanted to sort of do a uh set the record straight for the for the youngans you know the millennials in this new woke world um i there is a compulsion with sonic fans

there is a current thing with Sonic fans where the phrase the bang means jump in on this if I'm wrong but the phrase Sonic had a rough transition to 3D is held up as this sort of weird I don't know totem to like bad journalism or something or like just like disingenuousness now

the thing is Sonic did have a rough transition to 3D and the evidence people provide to say that it didn't generally ignores the Saturn they'll go like excuse me but Sonic 3 and Knuckles was a huge success

and then so was Sonic Adventure so what are you talking about and it's like my friends there's a fair few years in the middle of that of floundering I feel like maybe sometimes we just needed a reality check

and we just need to cut to the quick Sonic was good and now he's shite and he needs to get over that. Yeah, or just, you know, another option is just to simply end. No more Sonic ever, you know, we'll weigh it up, you know. Could be good, could be good for them, could be profitable. Just, you know, get rid of Sonic and then withdraw all the Sonic stuff and, like, never release it again.

Sonic in a few years becomes cultural detritus. We never have to hear about it. The fans are too embarrassed, so there's no more fandom. The hacking stops. I don't know who even plays the old games anymore. and we're finally free. But the porn endures, Shea, the porn will endure. Their porn will never die. It will be around forever.

What were you going to say, my friend? What I would like to not so much correct you on, because I believe that you're right. Thank you. Thank you very much. But I think there is a lot of frustration in the Sonic community about so many articles and videos and everything opening up with the phrase something along the lines of Sonic had a rough transition

into 3D. I do understand the frustration, but in a lot of cases, I think it's relevant context. You kind of need to say that part. But the problem is with the way that the internet works now, where information is not so much.

as it is thrown around, like a weapon, that has morphed into anybody saying something that I think is patently true. And I was kidding about Sonic being bad and now it's good. That was a joke. But it was a rough time. It was a rough time from Sonic going from these critically acclaimed blockbuster games into games with, let's be honest, more mixed reception, even before you get to Sonic Heroes. I mean, like, I look back and I think, like, when you look at Sonic as a success story with Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic 2, 3, you know, 3 in Knuckles,

like, I mean, there were plenty of Sonic games coming out around that that weren't as hot, like, Sonic Spinball, which I do like, but it's B-tier, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Some of the eight big games are Sonic Chaos, just not very good to me. It's a big, and the B tier,

there's a big gap between A and B in the case of, Sonic 3 and Knuckles versus, you know, Sonic Spinball. And even something that we, you know, quite like, like, you know, Mean Bean Machine. That's a fun game, but it is another, it is a different game, re-skinned. So that also... Something I want to, sorry, something I want to make very... Something I want to just make clear personally is, you know, I don't think Sonic really ever recovered from the Saturn era, not really.

Maybe as a sales thing, maybe as a recognised franchise, because, I mean, it's more popular than ever, I would say. maybe not quite so prominent culturally but kids love the fucking twat you know but the thing is

like even though I think that you know Sonic is kind of a hot mess as a series and you know I think that's reasonable to say that I mean any series

where you have to have both the classic and modern Sonic and then you have to like deal with them being around you know that's a disaster as far as I'm concerned a game

no, the Sonic Frontier Spotless, I won't give it, but recently there was a thing in Sonic Frontiers, which was a diversion from something that basically something happens that they already did, but they don't call it the same thing. They changed it. And it's like, what's happening here? You had an

open goal there, and you just missed it. You just completely went and whiffed it. But no, I'm not saying that I think all Sonic games now are shite. I think that I play them a lot. I like the Sonnet. I like the I like Sonic. I think that it's good.

Otherwise, I wouldn't do podcasts about it. But there is definitely a degree of like, what the hell are we doing, throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks. And then when it does stick, ignoring it and not building on it in any way and then doing something completely different. That's what it is. It's that we remember this progression of some of the best games. Like you can take one, two, three knuckles and you can look at them all and go like, well, this bit was better in that and that bit was better than this, but

they were all phenomenal and they were all phenomenally popular and it was like, the next one, it's going to be great. On the next one, yes, it's great, yes, it's great. And it was after that, immediately from the pinnacle of 16-bit gaming, Sonic 3 and Knuckles, one of the best games anyone's ever made,

the next one was such a disaster that it was never released, and that is worth talking about. Are you talking about Sonic Crackers? Yes. Sonic crackers And it was And it has ended up

In this situation where Yeah A Sonic game isn't one thing now They'll just do whatever And that And if you're young And that's the world you've lived in And to you

It's always been Sonic is just anything with this guy in It can feel probably weird When we go like Whoa It was a rough transition 3D But it was

And it was an interesting Enough time to talk about Is the thing I mean I just remember I wrote an article About this for Nintendo A while back Or at least covered it

in brief, and it was probably the most, the second most have ever been yelled at on the internet by enormous number of people, because I used the phrase Sonic Heroes was Toilet. It was. I stand by that, and the thing that was my, I've talked about this before, but that was my

moment when I realized I was old in the fandom, because the entire perspective has shifted and the people now grew up with that game. I grew up with the original games, So, a very different perspective. There's nostalgia isn't really there for Sonic Heroes and such.

Yes, but it's not merely, this is something me and Chris talk about on SCTP a lot. There is a difference between... What is STCTP for the listeners benefit, Dave? Sorry, that's my Sonic-based podcast. They know already, but, yeah. Sorry, it's not a good podcast, very good podcast, yeah. Where, it is true that when you're the ages of like 11 to 14, you know, you just get into anything because you're a kid

and you're blind to, you know, the fact that you're being marketed to and all this, you're getting to random city stuff, and you'll love it for the rest of you life. Yeah, same. Collectible circles. If they brought Pogs back, I'd probably buy them. Yeah, probably. As long as it had the same artist, you know, yeah. I'm a sucker for Pogs, man.

But, like, so it is true, and people aim that at you. Like, it's like, it's just your nostalgia versus that person's nostalgia. But, but, though, there are things in the world that are better than other things. And if you happen to be 11 to 14 when one of the... themes that was really actually good came out, then it's not just nostalgia anymore that's making you say Sonic 3 and Knuckles was good. But it's also the level of perspective of being like, this is how it was when it was me and the fandom, when I was fully in there, when I was on the forums and doing this, this was the gospel. It was this, these games are good, these games

are bad. Like, this is known. Sonic the Headshot, Sonic Heroes sucked. It was a huge disappointment. No one likes it. Shred of the Headchog, even worse. And I'm not. saying that people can't enjoy these games, I'm saying that from a perspective of someone who was there since literally Sonic didn't exist, yes, there was a period of history when it didn't exist, and it was a utopian period of history, I have to say. It don't look good for heroes, but we're not here to talk about stuff that late.

No, we're not going to get that far. We're going to talk about the second phase of the Sonic Cinematic Universe, game-a-matic universe because following Sonic 3 and Knuckles, which we've done five glorious episodes on, I feel like

it is imperative that we present our case for this rough transition to 3D and why saying that is not necessarily something that should upset you. No. You really shouldn't be upset by this.

We're not just going to dump on this time. There's loads of really interesting good stuff that we liked from that. time. Sometimes, rough can be fun. Yeah, it's absolutely true. And you'll find out all about that when you grow up, kids. Um, wow. So where do we start? Following Sonic 3 and Knuckles, there's 3D is the big thing 3D games, PlayStation, Saturn to some extent

the Atari Jaguar CD 3D games with polygons instead of sprites To a very limited extent. To a very limited extent indeed, yes. And Sega Can I? Can I just establish

like a bit of a timeline here? Yeah, yeah, well, means, yeah, very sensible. Okay, so the year is 1996, in November, 1996. Tail end of 1996 even. By this point, Super Mario 64 had already been released for the Nintendo 64. Crash Bandicoot had been released for the Sony PlayStation by this point.

You know, two absolute heavy hitters, both taking the 3D platformer in different directions. You know, one's kind of more explorative and the other one's more linear. Kind of like Sonic. So where was? Where was our intrepid blue hero at this point in history? He was fucking releasing Sonic 3. Flickies Island, wasn't it? Yeah, Sonic 3D Blast or Sonic 3Dx Island on the Mega Drive.

Now, the Mega Drive version is the one that I personally had spent time with. The Saturn and PC versions are somewhat different, and I think, Shay, they're the ones you're familiar with. Yes, yes. So I think this could be interesting to make the sort of comparison. Now, Sonic 3D, if you're not familiar

with it, is an isometric action game. Action slash maze game, I think I'd call it. Developed by Travelers' Tales who are well known by this point for making games that really do push the Mega Drive, the 16-bit systems like Mickey Mania and Pugsy, which are

remarkable-looking video games by, for sure. I want Toy Story, I think it was out by now as well, and that was incredible for the Mega Drive. But something 3D, like, I mean, let's get the cat out, you know, let's put the cat amongst the pigeons. It's not 3D, is it?

Like, it's just clearly not 3D in any respect. It's nice to make sure it. It's head over heels. It's head over freaking heels, isn't it? It's head over heels presented to look like it's also 3D polygons, but it isn't it? It's a Donkey Kong country. And it looks tremendous. I love the look of this game.

But both on Mega Drive and Saturn. Now, Saturn, the main difference visually, I think, is it's got more quasi-realistic textures on everything. So it does give the game a very different look while retaining the same basic gameplay. And it has that missed as well. Yes, of course, yeah. Like a fancier graphical effect going to the superior hardware.

Yeah, well, can I just say one of my favorite, like slices of video games is when you get a 16-bit game that's been released on a 30-2-bit console so you're basically just getting a fun platform where it just looks ace like stuff that came up with a mega CD and stuff like that I love that

it's like I'm playing Chuck Rock except the music is like CD music so it's just like a little bit more cool man Chuck Rock 3D we got robbed should have happened anyway save for the Chuck Rock episode which I'm definitely not doing so I think

3D, what you do in that game is unlike, very much unlike previous Sonic games, you move around these isometric stages, you bop enemies and you pick up Flickies. They're inside enemies, aren't they? Yes, yes. Flickie is a small bird. Yeah, Flickie is a small bird

who you may know from the arcade game Flicky also release on the Mega Drive, one of my favorite Megadrive games, Flicky. You have to picky, lickie, roll them up in Flicky. Nice, nice, nice, nice. Now when you collect five of these, these Flickies will follow along behind you in like an obedient little chain,

and if you collect five of them, you take them to the big ring at the exit, and you release them, and that lets you proceed. I think because it would be quite difficult to design linear stages that had sort of platforming, because this is much more of a maze game than a platformer. There is some platform, but because of the awkward perspective, it's really more focused on exploration. And as well as finding Flickies,

you've also got to find, you know, rings, power-ups. and then you'll take these rings to tails who's just standing around or knuckles who's just standing around all they do they'll just stand around give them 50 rings they'll let you play the special stage to get an emerald and they're different on all three systems

there are three different special stages I'm not going to talk about them right now but I just want to get the game loop is find five flickies go to the X's sometimes you need to find five more flickies and there's another half of the level now the problem I have with this game with respect this may not be a problem

on the Saturn and PC versions which I believe have a safe feature. The Mega Drive version, there is no such safe feature, and this game is very long. There are lots and lots of levels. They are not easy, and they are not, well, they're not simple to navigate. Of course, you could cheat by either putting in the barracuda code

or just kicking your Mega Drive when the cartridge is in, which somehow... I think it's because when there's an error, it automatically goes to the cheat menu. That's like the error response. Was it John Burton? John Burton? John Burton, the Mega Christian, yeah.

Well, what happened was that I think it was Sega of, Sega would basically only test if it crashed under certain stimulus. So what he did was he rerouted it so that anything that would cause a crash would just reroute to the Level Select menu. Since it wasn't technically a crash, it passed quality testing. Amazing. And so what it means is that if you rattle the cartridge a certain way while it's turning on, you'll be taken to the Level Select.

Yeah, that was it. Okay. It was true, and it was good, and it's a fact that I like about that game. But something else I want to mention real quick, because we're starting from the beginning really is, like, if you play this on the Mega Drive, this game starts out with a holy crap, CGI cutscene is happening. Yeah. I mean, it's insane. The first time you say, you're like, no way. It's really well done. There's an interesting video by Syed Hyper Christian John Burton, the developer, on YouTube, on the Game Hut, I believe, and it tells about how they managed to do that. mega drive, and it's very, very fascinating. His whole channel is quite fascinating until you get to the

bits where it's like, yeah, I hid my Christian messages in all my games. Like, if you dig and you'll find some like psalms in them and it's like, come on, John. I have never seen him do that. I'm going to have to take your word for it. Give it a break, mate. Try and have fun.

The thing about Sonic 3, sorry, I'm not interested in talking about Christianity. I'm only interested in Sonic. That's fair. The thing about Sonic 3D... I'm the same if you think about it, but go on, go on. Well, you know, Sonic 06, he did rise from the dead. Yeah, he did, after getting a kiss from a maiden like Jesus.

Just like Jesus. Jesus was also, of course, way past cool. Yeah, he's alive, and he's going to kill you. From either of them, where's that from? I don't remember that bit. But, right, okay, the thing about Sonic 3D, though, that I think has

like, the problem that Sonic encounters going forward, and in fact I've always encountered, really, is that the very fact of his central gimmick being speed, it kind of hamstrings what he can do. Like, there was another 3D isometric maze game on the game gear, Sonic Labyrinth, and it's a decent little, like, it's fine. It's not great. One of the most over-criticised, like, oh, it's so bad. And the reason they say that is because Sonic's got like stone shoes and it's like, who cares? It's just playing the game. Well, this is it. This is it that you don't play a Sonic game to slowly pick your way through a level. You play a Sonic game to go fast. And this is the problem with Sonic 3D is it's

like, because it's in this weird isometric 3D perspective. Yeah. Sonic is fast and that he is too slippery for his own good. Yeah. Like his controls do not match the perspective. No, they don't. But in the sense, I kind of like that. But yeah. But it's not about going fast. You use the spin dash and it's basically a death sentence. The only moments of spectacle are completely prescripted. Yeah, like when you go around the loops or when you travel between the stages or the opening of diamond dust zone, that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, and they're lovely little spectacles, but they're not interactive, really. It's the game has to take the controller off you in order to do those bits because otherwise it had no way of using Sonic's raison d'et through it, really.

Yeah. Cyber raisin, that's true. I like that a lot. Oh. That one's going to get that straight. If that's no worth $5, I don't know what is. Mm-hmm. This is the problem. This is always going to be the problem going.

Because the other thing, of course, is that Sonic moves quickly. So you have to make bigger levels to accommodate that speed. And it becomes a real bug bear. Like, they absolutely, obviously, they couldn't have done it on the Mega Drive. but I don't even think it was remotely feasible even on the Saturn what was a proper full-on 3D? A proper full-on 3D Sonic game

in the style of like I would say that probably the PlayStation is more comparable and power to the Saturn although I'm not 100% on that I mean the Saturn was a design was 2D it was the 2D machine wasn't it? It was more apt for 2D games like they didn't have to drop frames like they did on PlayStation but 3D games were, while very much doable, hence nights into dreams and, you know, Kroc, obviously.

Well, mainly Kroc is top tier. It was more of a 2D sort of machine, but I'm not sure if Sonic 3D Blast really fits into that any rate, because the Saturn version of 3D Blast is, correct me if I'm wrong, it's more or less the same except for the special stages and the visuals. Yes, yeah, it is. It's an identical game. Yeah, the level design is the same, the bosses are the same, all that sort of thing. And I think that the interesting thing about that is Sonic 3D on the Mega Drive. When I was a kid, the really cool boxer tricked me into thinking that it actually was quite impressive. I mean, visually now, I know it is, but at the time it was like, yeah, this game is obviously cool as hell, because look at that box art. Look at it. It's so. stark and so awesome. I fell for it hook, lion and sinker. Like, the whole 3D...

Like, I understood what it was. I knew it wasn't generating any polygons, and I couldn't have possibly cared less about that. It was, you know, I was still impressed by Donkey Kong country back then, just having CG things. That was kind of... This was, like, a year after Toy Story.

We were all excited at the idea of CG things at all. So, Toy Story was like everything that has CG in a game that they were like for years. Yeah, it's like playing Toy Story. story, or it's not quite like playing play story yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was just, honestly, just seeing, I'll tell you what it felt like. It felt like, actually, this won't be a very good reference, because this doesn't feel

like this anymore, but back then, that episode of The Simpsons, where they go into the 3D world, Homer Cube, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, now when you watch that, you probably go like, huh, all right, cool. Whereas at the time, it was like, oh, my God, look! And you would ram a video in the tape, in the video recorder to record this incredible. readable thing. That's what you know what's the best? I'm sorry for the derailment,

but you know what the best part in Homer Cube is? It's where Homer's in the thing, don't jump on the joke because I'm going to say it. Okay, that's directed at you, Shea. I'm joking, sorry. When Homer's stuck in the dimension,

he says, like, I'm somewhere where I don't know where I am. It's somewhere I've never been before. Then Patty or Selma was like, the shower. They both crack up. And they're like, I just think that's a really funny dick

thing to say. Oh, that's just me. I think it's hilarious. They're sour. I can't do their voice. Seeing Sonic as a little 3D figure that you could honestly just turn round. Like, I would just sit there turning the guy round.

And especially... Yeah, you can finally see Sonic's ass. About time. And especially when you could, you know, you would go into a spin dash. And you could turn that round and look in, like, real, like, what 3D shape have they decided on for him when he's doing that? It really was cool, like, at the time. Yeah.

It was cool. It's just that it's a flashy exterior that quickly gives way to what you realize is essentially a slapped-together cross between head over hills and spin dizzy worlds. Well, yes. Okay, you say that, but I have always enjoyed the game for what it is. I genuinely enjoyed it. I enjoyed the game, but when did you last play through at the completion? That's all I think when I can get into Panic Public Zone and going now, the likes of this, actually. Yeah, no, okay, yeah.

I've done that very often. But further than that, no, quite a long time. Probably not since the 90s. And that's not meant to be like, oh, this game sucks because it doesn't suck. It's just like, it's the same thing over and over again. Okay, I'm going to, like, I feel like there's maybe a bit of a Sonic Heroes situation. Yeah, maybe. This was my first, this was my first ever Sonic game, like, the PC version.

The PC one, yeah, yeah, yeah. I played it on my dad's laptop down in London. I'm going to say it. I think it's dogs eggs. Oh, okay. It's a bad game. game. Oh, that's not what I was expecting you to finish that off with. It's, um, like, the thing is, is that, like, even with the maximum nostalgia specs on, and I do absolutely,

like, I love the Saturn Rusty Rune theme. It is beautiful. I, I truly, it's based on Enigma's sadness, which is a bizarre pool, but it works. Yeah. I think it's very atmospheric. It's not a game I can stand playing for more than a couple of levels. Right. Right. Right, that's interesting, yeah. Usually I think I'm all right with perspective, like 3D perspective on a 2D screen. I think I'm okay with that. But like that, I can't even be done with it on any level. It is, it doesn't work for me.

Do you know, this came up a bit earlier. I am fine with it and I kind of really like it because it actually is reminiscent of a lot of Spectron games and things like that. So that's fine for me. but you're talking about earlier about the platforming. There's a bit, like, in nearly every level where all you have to do is just jump from one suspended platform to another one, and I cannot. Yes, yeah. Well, like in any other Sonic game, there would be pits below those, but there aren't in this one because they know how fiddly it is. And it's, like, the moment I remember as a kid getting scunnered with it was when I was in Volcano Vival.

Valley. Is that the level? I think so. Yeah. Yeah. And it's the boss of that bit where you have to jump on the pipes and then jump on robot net. God, yes. That dreadful. Like, even as a child who had no other games to play

and had just bought his first ever Sonic the Hedgehog game, I was a big fan because of the comics and everything, I couldn't be doing with it. I stopped there and I nearly returned to it. I really like the final boss because it's like Billy Jean You weren't running on the ground And the towels are lighting up underneath you

It's very cool And also if you had something gems collection Then you absolutely rinsed it You unlock the ability to warp straight to the final boss It's like 3D and fight it And that was pretty cool And that's how I like to play Sunnet 3D these days Just warping to the final boss

And fighting it The final boss was really cool And just because we haven't mentioned it yet Also a shout-out to the Mega Drive soundtrack, one of the best Mega Drive soundtracks. Well, that's the thing is, it's a game that has two soundtracks, and they're both

terrific. The Saturn one, Richard, I think you said Richard Juck, right? Yeah, yes, it is, yeah. Who also will bless us with Sonai Karsin. But you have your John, I don't know how to pronounce it, John Seno-e-e-e-N-O-E-N-O-E. No, I don't know how either.

No, I believe it's Jun Sen-U-E. Is this going to be a prokreful, but I feel as if I heard that it wasn't as much. a June Sennuay soundtrack as we thought. Oh, really? Like, well, like, it was like Mick Hucknell or something? Yeah, that's right, yeah.

It was Mick Hucknall's, his like, investigative videos on like, this sound, this is the green groove music sounds a bit like holding back the years. And therefore, Mick Hucknall worked on this. What it was was that, I think, so this, you know what, I should have researched this, but I seem to remember,

because I've always been really confused, right? If he, if John, I'll call him for now, made one of my favorite Mega Drive soundtracks ever, then why don't I really like his tracks on Sonic Adventure? I was always very confused, including the ones that are just the tracks from this, but done on his synther home, and suddenly sounding all bad. And then, I believe it was on one of those GameHut videos where he was like, yeah, he's sent in a demo tape, here's the demo tape, and he plays like a version of a couple of the Sonic 3D tunes,

but sounding very Sonic Adventure. and then we turned it into this. Brilliant Megadrive music. Yeah. And it just answered a lot of questions for me about some of the stuff I've seen credited to him compared to what I think Sonic 3D on the Mega Drive sounds like. The demo tracks are on the Internet Archive.

So maybe they could be put into the episode, wink, wink. Yeah. So Sonic 3D, to be on it, well, I mean, it kind of came and went. I mean, it's on everything. If you buy the Mega Drive classics like on PS4 today, it's got Sonic 3D on there, I believe, you can still play. it. John Burton actually made a rum hack called Sonic 3D director's cut for the Mega Drive, which I think adds in a battery save. It makes it so bizarrely, it makes it so you don't have to get the flickies, which I think is a huge misfire because there's now no game. What's the point? Hang on. What's the point then?

Well, I know. He's added all this stuff, and he's put Super Sonic in as well, but like, listening to criticism, bizarre criticism from idiots on the internet to have said, oh, you should just be a straightforward. game. So he's made it a straightforward game. Maybe it's optional. It is a straightforward game. You collect the birds and you put him in the hoop. John, you've made Dave Cross.

But I agree. It's too far. Once again, another slam dunk for Sonic that he just misses. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, enough about Sonic 3D. Now, that sort of came and went sadly, but Sega, I guess, needed some Sonic on the Saturn. And their only option, really, at this point, was to throw together a compilation, and by throw together, I mean lovingly curate, because this is

still one of my favourite Sonic ways to play Sonic. What you get, now we've talked about this with Lewis Clark, I think, on the Sonic compilation, sorry, excuse me, the retrocompilations episode, so I'll keep it kind of brief. What you'd get is Sonic, Sonic 2, Sonic 3, and Sonic and Locals, with the ability to do the lock-on and play any of them connected, including Blue Sphere if you want to. And the menu is just super graceful, like you, you, you we'll pick a game, or you'll pick Sonic and Knuckles, and then you'll pick the carches to plug it into, and it's all just beautifully done.

Oh, nice. I never, do you know, I don't think I've ever, oh, no, that's not true. I must have had a go on it. I'm sure Abby had one. But I don't, it's as if I've never played it. It's as if that's passed me by entirely. The thing that I find the most interesting about this

is, before we get into the Sonic World additional mode thing, is you can play the games as the originally were, but there's also new revisions of the games, which have fixed, like, the bottom of the spitt in Mystic Cave, for one example. I'm not bottomless. I mean, you know, the one you can't escape from. Yeah.

The bottom's bit, yeah. The bottom's bit, yeah. The very bottomed, like, extremely bottomed, only bottomed. Stop giggling at the back. And also, like, some small, like, balance changes, new little things hidden here and there, occasionally tiny bits more of the levels. It's like Aladdin, the final cut on the Aladdin Collection,

where suddenly you'll just find a bit more level, and it's really quite jarring. Oh, is that what that is? I played that and was like, well, I can't tell any difference. Well, I'm going to go back to the room. No, go to Aladdin, the final cart. Go to the first level. And when you get to the bit where you ascend above the city streets for the first time,

jump to the left, and you can then run along the rooftops back to the beginning of the level on the roofs. And collect stuff. And you could not do that in the original game. It was not there. Okay. So the final cart of Aladdin in the Disney Classic Games collection is basically Aladdin, but they finished it. they had time to finish it it's extremely cool

I'm getting right back into it because I've had that it's extremely cool they fixed the collision detection and made it like easier and better it's just a better game but this is kind of Sonic the final cut I think also they are not emulated

they are ports hence the changes they were able to make to them but as well as that you also get like an easy mode which gives each zone only one act as for babies and that's quite fun but the main draw of Sonic Jam was Sonic's world, or just Sonic World, which was a 3D polygonal mode where you are,

you are him, you are Sonic, and you run around this like, really dynamic colored, like, nice, attractive looking Green Hill Zone. Yeah. But it's just essentially a glorified menu for extras, because you'll find, like, a building which you'll let you watch videos, including that weird cartoon that nobody knew what the hell it was. No, do we know yet what it is? Was it a pilot?

I think it was a pilot of some sort. I'm not really sure what it is. I think it was an... Just based on what it looks like and what I know about things. I reckon it was an animation studio's pitch. Like, their audition piece. That sounds likely. But I don't know.

But as well as that, you can also look at like some pictures from the Sonic screensaver and things like... Just general, like, Sonic stuff. Which is, you know, it's good. But you're also able to do sort of mission. where it'll be like get 20 rings or get 50 rings or like find tails you know and you can news tales to fly around them and it's essentially almost like it feels like a proof of concept for a game yeah isn't the story that this was kind of some assets that they'd been not that it was

not that it was a demo of sonic adventure but it was like the can we make sonic run around in 3d environment that they had developed to make sonic adventure with yeah So far as I understand it, like people say it's, oh, it's like an engine test or it was like an early draft of Sonic. It wasn't, but there was definitely, they were both part of the same pipeline, I think, is what's happening. Yeah. But again, that's really your only main 3D Sonic Adventure, like proper 3D Sonic Adventure on the Saturn. It's like one small. sparsely populated level This is the thing And as we look back at it now

We kind of go like Well there was the Saturn era And there was this big dearth of stuff And Sonic Extreme Was supposed to be getting made And all of this What it was actually like on the ground At the time was

It was like a slow admission That it had finished It was kind of Oh there's not Oh is Sonic over Which was really difficult To come to terms with Because like

Because Mario wasn't That was, it wasn't going leaps and bounds. Mario, jump. But it, but it had Mario 64. Coins, mate. Coins, mate. Coins. And it just seemed like that wasn't going to die a death anytime soon. And indeed it didn't.

Whereas with Sonic, it was kind of, oh, what's happening here? Because it had also been, for a child, a long time since Sonic 3 and Knuckles, the last proper Sonic game. And it, it, it had been like a couple of schools since that came out. we were getting old now and yeah this for this to come out

for Sonic Jam to come out and you're like oh what is it Sonic's gonna be in 3D you know you'd heard the little rumours and then it's like that's just a menu

it's just the games you've already got but for you know it's it's a Mario All-Stars but for the Saturn oh I don't then I don't God it's never made that

association but you're right it is their version of Mario All-Stars I never realised that yeah yeah because that was I mean now there's all sorts of games

compilation now but then that was the one that was the gold standard if you're going to re-release your games Mario All-Stars and the thing is it wasn't even a Mario All-Stars like wouldn't it have been fat would it can you imagine Sonic 3 and knuckles but they've gone over all the graphics to make them Saturn native like you imagine and they didn't so there was despite despite those little improvements that they made and the fact that now there was the the um quality of life edition if you want to call it that we you know yeah of the spin dash in Sonic 1 different people may disagree whether that's good or bad but it wasn't much and so to have this menu of this museum of extra stuff was really exciting and don't mean right it became the basis of a lot of

like the original sonic internet stuff yeah um it didn't feel like enough no I'm going to be able to be. I'm going to be. You know, I'm at a lot of Ackon. And then, you know,

I'm going to be able to be. I'm going to be. I mean, The press at this time, speaking of the UK specifically, because I don't really know what was going on in America, the press at this time were very anti-2D. This is well known that it was a lot of kind of like, this is 2D, this is bollocks.

Not so much, obviously, from the Saturn of Fitzhenados who were very sort of like no 2D is actually good, because that's all we've got, so please don't take it away from us. And Sonic was still considered big. I mean, Nights was out by this point. Christmas Nights was out by this point. So you'd had something running around in that.

Shea, maybe it's worth talking about Nights, like you mentioned prior, for context to say, because Nights almost came out and it was like, this is the new one. Sonic is finished. This is the new thing. This is going to be the big thing. This is going to be the Mario 64 beta.

Well, it directly competed with Mario 64 in terms of release window. and it's what essentially happened so far as I understand it is Sonic team finished Sonic 3 and Knuckles and it was kind of expected that they would like

whether that was their decision or it was a marketing idea or whatever it was they were moving on they were doing new things and their big project the big one that competed with Mario and was supposed to be

kind of the new hotness was Knights into Dreams which was genuinely one of my favourite games not for the 3D sections it's a game that is played in two parts you play as Clarice and Elliot in like a 3D area

but basically you are told to cut that shit out quick smart and get into knights and so then you become knights and you fly around it's like a 3D environment it's that same 3D environment but you are on a loop. You are on a 2D loop.

It plays like a 2D game. Yeah. And that was Sonic Team's first big 3D gesture. A 2D game. Like... I think it's pronounced jester. Oh. That's blood to get Dave on it.

He's always like this. He's always like this. There you go. What do you go, I swear to God. But, yeah, it's not, like, I absolutely adore that game, but it's not emblematic of a confident stride into a 3D space. If I can make the comparison with Mario 64 briefly, because it does relate to the Sonic journey as well,

Mario 64 comes out of the gate and it's like, everything's different now. This is how games work now. everything's different and Knight's comes out and it's like and I'm not having to go at it. It's like this is a score attack game

rooted in 1980s loop based gameplay. This is an arcade title on a home console essentially. There is progression but it's a game that you repeatedly play over and over again for high scores. Even in just in terms of

broads, you're absolutely right. You are absolutely right. But even just in terms of broad strokes, it's like you talk to like there's all the interviews with Sonic team about their influences and inspiration. It's like, oh, we went to see Cirque du Soleil and we started reading Carl

Young. You know, and if you're a win in like 1996, you have three options. You have Wahoo Super Mario 64, which needs no introduction. You have Crash Bandicoot, which is a hilarious little

Warner Brothers cartoon that you get to play or Carl Young Like Whereas the developers of Supermarriage 64 went to see Starlight Express And then started reading R. L. Stein. That sounds like a hell of a knight. Yeah, it does.

Guess what else do they? Guess what else do they? They've got a Korean as well. I have to say, like all of the three Knights may be my favourite. But like let's make no bones about it here, that is esoteric as hell. That is not a company who has a firm grasp on what they're doing. Well, I remember Sega Power magazine, the magazine I read and occasionally

go back to, because I'm a weird little stuck in the past gnome. They did this huge feature that was like Knights versus Marry 64. It's like, well, I think Nice is probably going to win this, given it's in a magazine called Sega Power. But the comparison always to me, even as a child, seemed completely absurd. And for Sonic, I mean, it's going even further back than that, I mean, we're not thinking about, like, Ristar, Ristar, you know, because that was another thing which was met with, oh, Sonic's dead, this is the new thing.

Yeah. And it's such a misjudgment of what, I don't know, basically the point is the press was still thinking of Sonic as one of the bigons, even though for some time now he hadn't been a bigon, he was still Sonic so you'd still get him on covers of magazines even when there wasn't a Sonic game coming out and the Saturn was kind of coasting on this idea that Sonic was coming it was like no no no no it's gonna be fine it doesn't matter that all they've released is like virtual decathlon and cockwork night there's gonna be Sonic it's coming

and you know eventually there was Sonic and it was Sonic R and that is different to not to normal Sonic Did we want to talk about the game that was supposed to be coming? Oh, so this actually was after that, was it? Oh, no, Sonic Extreme was before this. Right, let's talk about that first then. It was actually before even Sonic, it was about the same time as Sonic 3D. Right, right. So Sonic Extreme, which is a game that never saw release outside of assets getting leaked or revealed and things like that.

I believe what there is of it has been compiled. but it's not anywhere near like a finish game at all now Sonic Extreme I strongly remember this being I guess not trailed but teased as like look there's a Sonic coming called Sonic Extreme That's the important thing

When we talk about Sonic Extreme now Do not get, if you're young and you weren't there Don't get the impression that it's just like These Sonic games came out This one got canned Sonic Extreme No no no this was We were all on tent hooks for this this was half-life three

like we thought it was coming this would be like if Bethesda just came out and said like oh by the way we've cancelled the Elder Scroll 6 you know it was huge well I mean like the same issue of Sega Pal that I had about Knights had a feature about Sonic

Extreme in it and it was like here's what we know and you get the one screenshot with the weird fish eye lens look right you've got this drawing concept art of Tiara Babarski who is this female character

we're going to introduce in this game presumably not, I mean introducing a character to the Sonic fandom called Tiara Bubowski, just a huge mistake. Just don't do it. If anything, I think we were very mature about it. Well, because of course, like the Sonic fan base is very sexually repressed.

Yeah, I mean, nobody's even said that the word boob is in the name there. A boob, like a boobie, like a lady's booby. Yeah. It's all... This is going to sound like I'm doing an ironic joke.

It was almost never brought up and it is almost never brought up and I just think we were all very mature about it in the 90s. Yeah, until now, I've now ruined it on Retroids. Obviously, Stuart here has dragged us down into the mud, but on the Sonic finds after this

episode goes up, going like, well, I never noticed that. Hang on a second. Oh my God. This is huge. Rule 34 has changed forever. we have a send it to Rule 35. No, probably already is a Rule 35. I don't know what it is.

It's not look it up. Don't look it up. It's probably disgusting. No, it'll be horrible, whatever it is. Awful. Yeah, it'll be funny if Rule 35 was like, be nice to everyone. Mm.

Aw. But no, Sonic Extreme, it was this thing that was just like, on, we're on Tenderhooks, it's like, this is going to be the one, this is the Sonic game for the Saturn, this is not a spin-off, this is the next Sonic, you know? Same article's got like Sonic the Fighters, arcade game, that's coming, but bollocks to that. Like, this is what we care about. It's not like extreme. This is all we've got. And it's all we ever had. And yet, it's odd because yes, it was the next big Sonic game.

But we knew that the guy who made the Sonic games had gone and made Knights instead. This was known. And that was just a little peg put on that idea of like, maybe Sonic's finished. Yeah. Maybe that's it. and Sonic Extreme was being made by just someone. It was being developed at STI, which was the American branch of the Sega Technical Institute. Yeah, who made comics in The Ouse, I think, and they helped out on the Sonic games as well.

Well, the thing is, here, again, again, I have to keep mashing this point home just so you understand. I'm just a brief, this is not chronological, this is not in detail, this is kind of, of like confidently remembered but not at like I'm not got my sources ready for you but some of the stuff that went on at number one there was a lady named Christina coffin who developed the boss engine I believe for the game like the 3d like boss arenas because half of the game was going to be those full 3D boss arenas and the other half was this weird kind of almost like isometric from a different angle. Fish-eye

lens 3D thing that genuinely makes me sick to look at. It's awful. I see it in motion and it looks horrible. And I don't mean in comparison to the big guns. I mean like it makes me feel physically ill. It makes me feel motion sick in the same way that

Bubsy 3D makes me motion sick. It's really bad. Like I can't stress this enough now. I'm not saying that had the game come out and being finished. It would have been that bad. But it's not good. No, and it didn't, and when you saw, when you heard about, like, it's going to have a fish eye lens, because that is something that I think they used to say. And when you saw that one screenshot, all you ever thought was, well, that won't be good. Like, this is the thing. Again, Matt, what do you day in Mario 64? Explore Peach's Castle. Oh, wow, I'd love to do that. Well, have you, like, fish eye lens. No, I don't love to do that. Yeah, yeah. So, but what you also had is you had this lady called Christina Coffin, who was developing.

the boss engine, which I believe was in full 3D. And what she did was she made this engine and then I believe it was the president of Sega Japan. Hayao Nakayama, who had a bit of a reputation, we'll leave it at that. And he came in, he saw it, and he flipped his lid. He was like, this is horrendous. I think it was the fish eye thing that he saw.

But he was like, this is rubbish. bollocks, this is awful. Scrap it. All the work you've been doing, scrap it. Focus on this boss thing instead. So, all of the momentum they had built up. Rather than start the project from

like a place of confidence, they started it, just kind of experimented and then got told to can it. And then Christina, like, they went on to work on Christina Coffin's like boss idea. Yeah. And I think it was

at that point, at some point anyway, to help speed development along, they got the Knights into Dreams tools. They got the tools to do like 3D stuff on the Saturn. So at this point, the game was slated for a winter 1996 release because that was the time that there was a video tie-in with Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog, I believe, and it was called like a very extreme Christmas. Yeah, Sonic Christmas Blast, right? Yeah, it had to be renamed and released a Sonic Christmas Blast so that they could re-release Sonic 3D blast alongside it. Yeah.

So, you know, the Saturn's big Sonic game, like its winter Sonic game, was now down the toilet. Yeah. Wasn't it that maybe it's apocryphal, but I'm sure I remember reading that also then Yuzi Nakah found out that he was using the Knights Tools and he was just like, no. Yes. Now, this, so far as I...

Convicted, by the way. Again, this was research that I did a few years ago, so if I'm mistaken, I do apologize. But either way, like, it was, so far as I understand it, they got a few weeks into development with this new idea for what Sonic Extreme would be. And so far as I understand it, if they had been given a few more months to work on this, like, at the stage they were at, they would have made it. They would have gotten the game out the door. the story that I've heard is that Yuji Naka hears about this and flips his lid and says I like threatens to quit

if SEI continue to use his code apparently there was a lot of behind the scene stuff there apparently Yuji Naka had a bit of a reputation of being a bit of a diva and there was a lot of like rivalry between Sega America and Sega Japan but either way they're told no you can't use this code that is now the basis for like six weeks of work

and so apparently the end of this the quote unquote punchline the morbid fucking punchline to this is that something's not real sorry go on is that Chris Coffin spends it's a matter of week she basically cancels the rent on her flat moves into the offices and nearly dies

working on this game like genuinely gets pneumonia and almost works her to death. Oh, God. Yeah. Like, I mean, fair play to her. She's still in the industry

today and honestly, what a trooper. Good. I'm glad to hear that. Yeah. But if I've got anything wrong, please, you know, please do your own research.

Don't use me as a primary source. But that's my understanding of the development of Sonic X. That was the Saturn's Mario killer. That was the biggest gun that they had. Yeah. To fight off the competition with. once again

that's not a smooth transition into three again once again Mario 64 comes out and they don't need fish eye lens they don't need Carl Young they don't need like

explanations and caveats and asterisk you sit down you pick up the controller and it's like holy shit this is phenomenal Now, as you've just made very clear now, does that sound smooth to you? As I just made it at home, like, listeners,

The children, the millennials, whatever, they're in this terrible woke world. I'm sorry, I've got to stop doing that. I'm kidding. That's irony. That's a bit of, you know, because if you say something bigoted ironically, it's fine to do it.

That's how it works. Even though it's unjustifiable and completely indistinguishable from actual bigotry. Let's move on. Do you need stopping or are you going? No, I'm good. Sonic R is next.

Yes. Sonic R comes out in 1997. And now Sonic. Sonic R, in my humble opinion, is extremely enjoyable. Yeah, I agree. What it is, is essentially them going, let's do Mario Kart except with running men. Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy and her little car,

which is awesome, by the way, and Dr. Robotnik. And a host of Legamatic. And a host of secret characters that you unlock by collecting coins spread around the course, or chaos emeralds also spread around the course, which turns this from sort of a racing game into a sort of exploration racing game. And that's cool as hell to me. It's the mechanic that people now will be very familiar with from Mario Kart of finding the secret route, except it was like way more like in a normal game, I suppose, is what I'm because you can jump and double jump. Yeah, yeah. So you can get over stuff, you can get round to

secret places. I've this vague, I haven't played it since the 90s, but I've this sense that the secret areas just felt a bit more like more numerous and more robust in some way than you would expect in Mario Kart where it's literally just a shortcut. Well, it's, the levels in Sonic Carr were designed by Hido Kazu Yasahara, who also designed like the levels for the original Sonic trilogy. So that's why it explains it, yeah. So that's why it feels so authentic to those Sonic games I like the thing is is I couldn't honestly tell you with

with no shadow in my heart that Sonic R is a great game Oh God no well The thing is it the thing that's sorry to interrupt Sonic R I love all of it And that's about half an hour Like now then you're done Like I probably could 100% this game in 45 minutes

And it's not even showing off I think the first time I did 100% this game I did it in about 45 minutes And I was like huh I've unlocked everyone I've done everything Okay It's got a lot of

Let's charitably call them teething issues Like for example Like you say there are five levels Yeah four main courses And one secret one to unlock Which is really cool looking to be fair And each one of them Each one of those courses

Looks spectacular And has so much depth And hidden roots and stuff like that But there are only five courses Yeah The controls are clunky. They're primitive, shall we say. I personally disagree. I think they're fine. But

then again, I sort of also get what you mean. They're not what you'd expect from running men, basically. No. It's not like playing a 3D platformer, you know? Yeah, I think it's because I'm used to it. That's why I'm saying this. Like, I know I've control this game, therefore I'm probably just jumping the gun a bit, you know. Oh, like, you stick me down in front. of this game and I am happy as you like but like the last

thing is that the balancing is all over the place. Oh god, yes. The secret characters are basically all just objectively better than the main characters. You are either absolutely like once you have unlocked supersonic, you either play a

supersonic or you lose. Yeah. And originally it's like once you're unlock the first one, Metal Sonic, he's the now the best character. You're on Metal Knuckles is even better than Metal Sonic, you know? The only exception, of course, is Tales Doll, which went on to be a very boring meme.

So it's got a lot of issues. I used to love that game so much that I would sit down and make my own Sonic R courses. I mean, I would actually buy card and cellotaping and stuff from the R store. And I would make my own little courses

out of them, and I would make little Sonic figures out of oven bake clay. Oh, that's so good. You're such a nerd. How do you crap? Nerd alert. And also, I'm going to say genuine, genuinely

really love that sound track. Oh, God, yes. I mean, okay, let me just nail down Sonic R, I think. Now, what Sonic R is, for me, personally, is it's a little just box of delights. And, you know, you get it, and you're like, oh my God, it's my favorite chocolates and you're just like, oh, mom, mom, mom, mom, mom.

And then before you know it, they're all gone. And that's what it's like for me. Every show off, I can go back to it. And once again, I can be like, yes, I love everything about this. I love the low-poly visuals. I mean, they're not low-poly then, but, you know, they are now. I love the soundtrack with Richard Jerk producing these. I don't even know what genre I would call them, like, Eurobeat almost kind of music.

They're the sort of 19-92. You know you have to survive. They're the sort of 92-era dance, like, da-da-da-da-da-da, those ones, where it's like, there's a woman singing on it, but it's also dance music. I mean, this is gooder. It's cheese, like pure cheese. But that's good for Sonic. Like, that fits Sonic. Is this the first time that a Sonic game was accompanied by a vocal soundtrack? No, Sonic 3D on Saturn, you're my hero. Oh, I did not. Oh, the credits team? Yes. But that didn't play during the levels,

though, did it? Oh, I see. No, no, you're absolutely right then, yes. Yeah, because in that... Sonic on the master system at the end, he's singing a song through a microphone, but you can't hear it. I'm sorry, but no,

unless you can't work that sucker to death. Oh, yeah, you're right. I forgot about that. That kind of counts, yeah. But, you know what I mean? It's like almost proto-Sonic Adventure when that became a huge thing, like a big motif.

There's music, there's cool songs, you know? Yeah. But Sonic R is like, It's just, it's almost possible to define it. It's a really enjoyable racing game that you should never play a multiplayer because there's literally no point. And if you do, you have to say you have to play as one of the main three you can't play as. Can I, can I offer a little counterpoint to the thing about it being really, really fast? I found accidentally a better way of playing Sonic R. Oh yeah? Which is, you know, to some extent, this is how it will have been meant to be played, I guess, depending on the situation. But, um, so I didn't have a Saturn, but I got it on the PC when they really sit on the PC, which would have been, what, 98? Did you have the version with the music, or the version without the music?

Oh no, it had the music. Yeah, it was the original release on Explosive label. Didn't have the music. Yeah, I know. What's the point? No, what is the point? Did it have sound effects at all? Yeah, it did. It had like the footsteps and all the sound effects, but there's no music.

Well, I still play the shit out of it. I didn't hear the music until Sonic Gem's collection. I didn't hear the music. Sonic R is it's almost something to do while you listen to an album Oh yeah It's brilliant

Right but anyway So I had this game And I had it on my PC And I played it a bit And it was okay I didn't really Didn't really get that into it But then I was gonna go off to uni

And you had to This was at a time When he had to take a computer But that was weird and unwieldy You had to lug a massive 90s tower So I got my first laptop My granddad bought me this laptop And it was, you know, it wasn't like great because it was a laptop in the 90s, but it could play Sonic R.

And so I used to take it in to school. Because I was, you know, in sit form and we had free periods in a social centre and I had a little group of friends. And we would just pass this thing around playing Sonic R. And there was, you know, so therefore there was only really time for one little race each and it didn't always necessarily get saved or whatever. but gradually we were unlocking stuff together and having this wonderful time at it like Matthews unlocked supersonic oh brilliant, well done

and we're getting all the finding the emeralds, finding the coins and really getting into it and the thing that I remember that that memory allows me to recall which no other experience will ever allow anyone to recall so this will be news to some people

you had the option of turning the singing off and having instrumental versions of the music and you shouldn't do that But my friends did, because they thought of themselves as, you know, Ibitha fans. They were Ministry of Sound people, and they went clubbing and stuff. So they were like, oh, this music's lame, let's turn the sound off. That's what you used to say in the 90s. Yeah, there's really lame.

It's not as good as Cancroft 100. Sorry. And then... I just, I'm like the worst part of this podcast. Go on. I'm not sure I know what you said. I'll find out when I listen back to the other. That's okay. It doesn't matter.

So, imagine I do a sound of condemnation. move on. Or a sound of laughing at a funny joke. So, yeah, so my memory of that is these little tinny thumping tunes coming out while we all just have a tremendous time together, playing it one player, not multiplayer, but just passing it

back and forth and just having, and it's great for that. It's a really good game to play with friends, but not multiplayer, just competing, just unlocking stuff together, and there's a, not competing, they're collaborating. It's lovely for that. back in time

to another world then you can be mine we don't have to worry when you're by my side there's nothing I don't know there's nothing to decide apart from where we want to go You know,

Something that I find about it is when I think about it, Sonic R really isn't a million miles from Sonic Adventure in terms of what I get out of it. Because Sonic Adventure has also got millions of flaws. Thousands, millions, so many. things wrong with that game and I love it and I love it because of the vibes I love it because of the music you know the kind of music the kind of music no disrespect intended like I don't enjoy outside of video games and yet when it's applied to Sonic I'm like yes mate here we go crush 40

actually listenable in the Sonic contest I told us I went to a son of Sonic once and crush 40 were there and they were playing and it was genuinely the worst dog shit I've ever heard in my entire life No offence And I don't mean just because their music was bad Which it was I mean the acoustics in the room they had Was just not a live music room So it just sounded like basically

It was awful Dreadful stuff Um So Sonic Adventure Lads I feel like I feel like I need to say this Just kind of like as a segue away from this We are taking no pleasure in saying this

We are not sitting here like ha ha get it up here Sonic was shite We've just all sat here and gushed about Sonic R For goodness sake Love Sonic R, love Sonic 3D Like this is how much we love this series Dude we haven't named a game today that I didn't like

Apart from Knights obviously Like and for me it's like I don't like Sonic 3D But I do like Knights You know it all balances out But like what I'm saying to you Is that we're not sitting here like oh yeah, no, you guys need to be cowed. It's just, I understand what it is like to be a Sonic fan.

I understand what it is like to be lost in the sauce. It's awful. Like, when you're sitting there and this thing that you're genuinely enthusiastic about just gets absolutely battered for east-to-west, just gets absolutely tanked online by everybody not in the fandom. And they're like, you know, your love for this thing is illegitimate. I get it. I understand. And I know how frustrated that is.

I've been there and I've witnessed the you know, the absolute, we've talked about it before, but the absolute disingenuous like hold right to win shit, you know, which is said by people who just don't have any interest in a conversation. Like, they don't have to have a conversation,

but I think it's best that people who don't know what they're talking about just shut the fuck on. I find if you don't know anything about a subject, it's best not to try and speak like, you know, authoritative. the number of people who are proudly declaring, I have no interest in this, but you're going to listen to me anyway. I get it.

Like, I do understand the frustration, but I don't think it behooves us to revise history in this way. No, no. I don't think it behooves us to say, oh no, Sonic was absolutely dandy the whole way through. Like, he just sprung into 3D fully formed,

because that's just not true. Going from Super Mario World, or if you want Super Mario World, too, Yoshi's Island both in the context for Best Game Ever. They're both in the conversation to Mario 64, which is also in the conversation for Best Game Ever.

They could not have knocked it out the park harder. And I don't even like Mario 64. I find it unenjoyable. And I sit there and I go I'm not worthy. I can clearly see that this is an unbelievably

impressive achievement. Like, clearly. But Sonic, to go, from one of the best platforms of all times Sonic 3Nuckles to basically what nothing for two years then Sonic 3D which is just like whatever for most people then Sonic jam which is just the old games again then Sonic R which is like clear the most proof of concept as demo it's like the length of a demo and it's awesome it's an awesome demo I love it but Christ almighty and then for that entire generation to end

That's that console generation gone. Yes. And since Sonic's gone until 1999, you know, and Sonic Adventure comes out. And Sonic Adventure, it deserves a full episode. Now, it has been talked about on Retron's before, but it's not been talked about by mental cases like us. So that's happening. Sonic Adventure, I think, absolutely crystallizes the lack of a smooth transition in 3D because it's an awesome, awesome game that's held together by duct tape.

and completely collapsing in on itself. It has no central, like, point or theme or thesis or spine whatsoever. It's just a bunch of stuff crammed in. It's absolutely insane. It bears almost no relation to any previous Sonic game whatsoever. It changes fundamental things about the series, about the law, that we've all come to understand in a completely, like, whatever, this is how it is now, weird way.

It's like a reboot of Sonic. And yet not. Yeah. And it's one of the most enjoyable games I think I've ever played, and I adore it. I love it with all my heart. Sonic Adventure, I love you. Sonic Adventure, too, go to hell. Sonic Adventure, kisses for Sonic Adventure.

I don't, but I did. So let's say I do, because for all intense purposes, at the time, I couldn't have been happier. Sonic Adventure is like the movie Amazing Spider-Man, too. If it was any better, it would be shit. and I will explain that at some point elsewhere. Like your say, we'll discuss this in depth next time because I keep thinking of things to say and then deliberately not saying them.

Yeah, that's what I've been told to do. But the... A different situation, I feel like. The thing is that, like, Sonic Adventure, back then, I just kind of... The general reception, to that game

was positive and I like it a whole heck of a lot and this is kind of what I was vaguely gesturing at earlier is that it was something that

Josh Wallin from the geek critique said which was basically like the Saturn couldn't do Sonic the Dreamcast could do Sonic like it needed that

grunt in order to actually even begin to attempt what Sonic did, like the speed and the size of the levels and the physics involved in everything, even with its issues, like you simply could not have done Sonic the Hedgehog a generation earlier in 3D. Do you remember, now, I'm sure you maybe still get this.

I've had it burned out of me by life's cruelness. Do you remember the sensation when you were a kid and you got a video game for Christmas and it was a video game that you wanted. Yes. Because you couldn't afford to buy your own video games at that time. I have been chasing that high my entire life. I remember standing outside Beaties. Do you remember Beaties that shop?

Like everything shop. Now, I was in Lakeside, Thorough, shopping centre, very famous at the time. Standing outside the window there where they had a big teleon and they were just looping the opening of Sonic Adventure, you know, Open Your Heart, the CG. Yes. I remember standing there, like, I think my jaw was on the floor and I was just like full chop.

Like, I'm staring at this thing. I can't believe what I'm seeing. That the rapid cuts to Amy, like, was under the music when chaos emerges from the building, tails determinedly flying across the screen and like beautiful Pixar level CG. And then that reveal of Sonic opening his eye, looking at the camera and just grinning. And it's like, oh, my. God. I'm getting it now describing it. I'm getting that

sense thing. I'm getting like the goosebumps. And that shot of robotic standing on the egg carrier, looking like the biggest boss in the world. Like he's standing on top of this flying airship which must be whipping through the sky at a fair speed and he just for no

reason he's standing up there. Because it looks badass. That's why he's doing it. Oh my God, it's so good. Anyway, you can imagine how I felt like standing there watching that. Because the dream at the time did not just feel like, oh, it's another console. It felt like the future.

It had these controllers with screens on them. What? Yeah. It was still annoyed that that didn't catch on. It could go on the internet. Huh? Are you kidding me? The games look like this. The Dreamcast

was practically an apology for the Saturn. That was they were absolutely swinging for the fences. Just everything was packed into that console. It was so fully featured and so innovative in a way that doesn't really feel so much like spitballing as it was just like everything is going in this. I mean, here's how it is. I mean, we'll wrap this up soon if that's okay, but...

Yes, absolutely. I first played the Saturn at a friend's house because the Saturn, not the Saturn, buttocks of that, the Dreamcast, at a friend's house because said Franz brother, the one with money, had imported a Japanese one. and it was in his house and he was actually playing on the actual Dreamcast actually and

okay, how can I put this? You're looking at graphics that you normally only got to see at the seaside at your house. You know what game he had? He had Sega get bass fishing because it was the only one he could get

and even that was incredible because it was a, I mean I didn't know about frame rates at the time but it was a full 60 frames per second smooth as butter gorgeous looking game fishing game I know and the most unbelievably

realistic friggin fish I've ever seen in my life and he had a controller that was a fishing rod and you had to swing the controller like you were casting a line and then when you were reeling it in you had to actually reel it in

with the crank on the controller oh my God it was incredible and then when he got Power Stone it became even more incredible that's you know that console

I cannot stress this enough it didn't feel like the next iteration of something, it felt like the future of video games. It felt like that's it. Everything before this is bollocks now. Like that... Yeah, it was a similar thing to when... It was obsolete. Like the PS1.

I made the PS1 look like dog shit. It was a similar feeling to when you really connected with the Wii moat. Yes. And gaming was changing around that. That's what it felt like, but it was only a few others. You know, I still meet people. Even the other day I was talking to Ken and he was talking about how he didn't like

the Wii remote and the Dunchuck. I'm like, I get that. But I'm saying to him like, man, I cannot tell you how much, how happy I was, sit in there playing Mario Galaxy, holding a controller where half the controller is here. Yeah. Half the controller is here. And I'm just lounging around. It doesn't matter where my hands are.

You got your arms spread out, haven't you? Yeah. You got your arms either side of you. Yeah, it's so comfortable. Why didn't that take off? I know. And sometimes, if you just felt fancy the difference, you put it behind your head. Yeah, yeah.

Well, they did the same with the joycons, and it's such a shame that the joycones, like, have such a lot of technical issues. I resisted the switch pro controller for so long, and now that I've got it, I can't play with the JoyCon's game with their trash. That thing of keeping your hands by your sides, it was so good. But Sony's idea is like, no, what you want, what people want is they want triggers that are harder to pull

because they're more like a real gun? No, Sony. Anyway, the point, Sonic Adventure was the return of Sonic. It was genuinely the Renaissance of Sonic. and it led to this glut of Sonic games, which we will eventually get round to pissing on

on this podcast. But Sonic, I want to, sorry, shake on. But the thing is, sorry, just to kind of like solidify

kind of the thesis for this podcast, which is that Sonic had a rough transition to 3D and he did. The thing is, is that our ultimate big swing, like our ultimate big,

bam, Sonic is back, triumphant moment is Sonic Adventure a game that by all metrics is very badly maligned by these days by modern standards

sorry it's like especially because and I have to just say this for posterity it's especially poorly looked back on because all of its ports iteratively made it worse every single

new port was a worse version of that game the DX version on the GameCube was just toilet. Like it was just like awful. And because there were so few of us joining the Dreamcast party, that's the one everyone thinks we're talking about.

Well, I play it on the PC with a series of fan mods to make it the Dreamcast version basically. Of course. You got it. But what you've basically got is like the big moment for us is a game that is deeply, deeply flawed. Like a game that has

like, I would say three characters in that. are just not fun to play. Yeah. Which three? For me, it's actually big. Yeah. Amy. Oh, no. And Gamma. Not Gamma, sorry.

And Knuckles. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like, Knuckles controls like a dream. But those levels, like, they are done within less than a minute. Yes. It's like... That's interesting. I thought you were going to say that it was like searching around for the gems that took too long, but it's...

the opposite. It's too easy. Well, because the thing is, is that the radar works properly in that game. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, yeah, so basically, like, by any metric, like, it is quite choppy at times. They didn't quite get the physics, right? It does often play itself.

There's a lot of bits where I know not to press a button, because if I do it, Sony will teleport 60 feet to the left and die. Yeah. Like, it's rough. It's still rough. Do you know?

It's still part of the rough transition to 3D. Yeah, it is. You know how your mom is like just a flawed human being? Everyone is, right? But you and your mom, you've got, unless your mom's dead in which case, I apologize. You've got a relationship that's very much to know about what came before for everyone. And there's, there's, there's friction there, and there are things that will never get reconciled. but you still love them

and that's Sonic Adventure it's my mum Sonic Adventure is your mum Sonic Adventure gave birth to me in 1987 my dad had sex with it and he gave birth to me in 1987

and that's just that's how it is I didn't want it to be revealed this way but it has but also Sonic Adventure was this big hurrah and we did all love it

and then they did not then iterate on its good bits moving forward, which is how it falls away in popularity in the distance. We'll get into this because we could talk about this for hours and hours as you know. But something

Avenger 2 is a fascinating thing because it's objectively, and I hate saying that word, but it applies here. So much more polished. Yes. Yes. And so very different again. And I can barely stand it. And I'm going to leave it there. Apart from

the final hazard, which is awesome, because it's a big lizard with a fucking spaceship up with asshole. That's hilarious. Well, this is the thing. Again, like, we are giving this maximum possible benefit of the doubt. Oh, yeah. And we're still unable to definitively say, yeah, things got better from here.

This is, exactly. That's why I mentioned Sonic Adventure too. It's because the reason Sonic had a rough transition to 3D became such a cliche is that it never really fully ended. No. Like, he's been in it these 30 years. This is the thing we alluded to very early in the show is when Sonic team do find something that works, they just can't iterate on it.

They won't iterate on it. And for me, like, Sonic had a rough transition to 3D is, like, the first 3D Sonic game I played, because I never had a dream card. I didn't have, you know, until much later, was Sonic Heroes on the PlayStation 2. And I was a big Sonic fan, and I was literally standing outside game

with my saved up 40 pounds. Yeah. To buy this game, which had glittery, shiny logo on it, like an embossed shiny Sonic Hero's logo, excitedly getting around playing it and playing the first level and being like, I love this, getting to the second level and being like, this stinks, I hate this, what's happened here?

You know? And that's how it's been forever. And yet there's something that keeps me coming back and you know what it is? It's the fact that Sonic is just inherently fun as shit. Yeah, we're never going to stop playing them. This thing about, like, we can criticize these games and so on, And we can talk about this rough transition to 3D And it's still being rough But there's loads of fun to be had

All the way across it It's just a question of what your relationship is with it How you slot in and find those things And to what extent The bad bits define your experience Versus the good bits And your experience is going to be different To my experience

Obviously, and Dave's experience And Shay's experience And you know There are people out there who quite sincerely Adore Sonic 06 And I'm sure that their adoration is legit I'm sure they do love it You know, there are games that I love that no one else likes,

like Bangers and Match on the Spectrum, but Bangers and Match on the Spectrum is better than Sonic 06, though. Just throwing out of it. But no, I want to wrap this up, because we could, like I say, this is the subject that we could literally witter on about forever, and we know, we need to save it for another podcast. Shea, Shemate, have you got any final thoughts on this before we all collectively go for a poo? on one big toilet No, I think I think I've said everything I need to say

I do want to add I haven't played Sonic Frontiers yet Oh yeah, right That's interesting Well, I mean, I think that you're very brave And very lucky To have not played Sonic Frontiers Although having said that

I'm trying to foster a healthy relationship with it Having said that I would genuinely love to know what you think of it Like, legit I would love to know You know what would be cool, Shay You know what? No, never mind. We'll talk about it after. We'll talk about it after now. Thank you very much for listening to this episode. Shay, let's go back to you a sec. Where can our delightful listeners find you on the internet if they wish to? Well, you can find me on most popular social media sites, blue sky, Instagram, blah, blah, blah. My username, I've changed it recently. It's now Shugals or Shugals underscore. If you see a little angry face with purple pupils you've found.

me. It's S-H-O-G-L-E-S, right? That's correct, yes. S-H-O-O-G-L-E-S or S-H-O-O-G-L-E-S-U-S underscore. What are you working? What are you working on at the moment, Shoe? I have a YouTube channel. Mainly, I'm currently still in the throes of streaming Pokemon.

I don't know if that will be the case when this is out. I'm hoping that by the time this is out, I will have released an enormous Pokemon, brilliant diamond video. Oh my God. and I can finally have something else to say at the end of these podcasts. That's my main motivation at the minute. Excellent news. I'm looking forward to that very much, mostly for the reaction, to be honest.

Yeah, it's going to be funny. It's going to be funny as hell. It's going to be very funny. I'm hoping I get a rise out of some certain people again. Nice, good. I hope so. It's always good when you're upset people on the internet. I love it.

Dave. It makes me feel potent and virile. Don't I know it? Dave, Bormer. Where can I find listeners find you and your fine ass on the internet? Okay, well, most of the listeners will be able to find me at my Sonic podcast. It's called Sonic the Comic, the podcast, and you'll find it by either just searching for that or going to STCTP dot zone.

Me and the show you've both been on it. Pure. That's right. Pure incest, pure incest, like just completely incestuous, yeah. Pure incest, yes. It's about like nepotism, is that not the word, no? I thought that an epitism was when you were, like, related in some way, which is also true of incest. Yeah.

So, there you go. Plus, we are related and we have all had sex. I'm sorry, that's not funny. Carry on. Right. It's a podcast about the old British Sonic Comics, and the reason that that's interesting, even if you didn't read them and weren't there, the reason you'll find it interesting is that those were really game accurate for the longest time. And so, you know, as opposed to Archie Comics where it's all about the Freedom Team or whatever, you can find... The dismissiveness of that.

Well, it's just nothing to do with the Sonic games Whereas the British Sonic comic was But also it was this sort of cultural window Into what was going on at the time They had reviews of stuff they would talk about Things were on the telly And we make sure to make you feel like you're there And have all of the context and understanding

Of what they're on about We'll put clips in from TV if they mention it We'll put adverts in things like this We cover the adverts all at the letters page Everything that's going on in this time in the 90s And it's just a load of fun You can find my socials if you go to the socials and look for Demon Tomato Dave

That's Twitter Blue Sky Mastodon YouTube I think that's it Demon Tomato Dave So you can find me there But basically most of you are going to be interested in listening to Sonic the Comic the podcast And I think you should I do that with Chris McFeeley

Off Transformers The Basics on YouTube If anyone listening is a Transformers fan You'll know who he is Everyone listening is a Transformers fan There you go And listeners If you've enjoyed this episode of Retronauts Or you would like to fund a different episode

of Retronauts to get rid of this one. So it expanse the memory of it. If you go to Patreon.com for slash Retronauts, you can find our Patreon there, which lets you at a $5. There's a $3 level where you'll get access to episodes early, but

the $5 level, you'll get two extra episodes per month, like full length episodes about really cool subjects. I mean, one of them because you'd think for the Patreon ones, they would just be like, oh, there's all the stuff that, you know, doesn't go on the main feed, but we did one about Super Metroid recently, and it was a two-parter. And, you know, it was really expensive and good.

And I got in trouble on the Discord, because I was playing Super Metroid while I was doing it. And it was really obvious because you could hear the D-Pat clicking the whole time. And the Discord were like, Stuart. Anyway, yeah, speaking of which, you get to go on the Discord and, you know, swear at me and, like, say horrible things about me. And I have no right to a player. To be fair. To be fair, it is Super Metroid. Like, how are you supposed to put that game down?

Exactly. Exactly. And you'll also get, at the $5 level, you'll get Diamond Fights genuinely tremendous this week in retro columns, which are available both in written form for the literate and speaking form for the sightless. Thank you very much for listening. I've been Stuart.

They're the one that do those articles. They're like a diamond in the fight. Thank you. That was really good. Sorry. No, it's good. You've played this out with a song, and I respect that. Should we do a rousing sing, song of living in the city to play us out?

Yeah, living in the city You know you have to survive You got to keep That dream alive With everything is free Something can't see This is very difficult Because there's a slight delay

We're going to sing it anyway You know you have to survive You've got to keep the dream alive where everything is free, fantasy. You know you have to survive. You've got to keep the dream alive, where everything is free, fantasy. Oh, you know you have to survive.

You've got to keep the dream alive, where everything is free, fantasy. That was great. That was great. That's my favorite. The day. The day. Yeah.

That was great. That was great. This is my favorite thing ever. The day I came home from university. Not all the way home. The day. I came home from a lecture. And the sun was blazing down.

And I got into my little student room. And I slammed the CD into my player. And I put on. Can you feel the sunshine? That day will never leave me. I try and do it every time it's the first really nice day of the year. That's really good. Yes.

A lot of car songs. Yeah, it's good at it. Who's eating crisps? Me. David, are you eating crisps on the Retronaut? It's a jelly bean. You can't eat jelly beans during Retronaut as one of my main rules. I can hear you eating the jelly beans, Dave.

Miam, yeah. Oh, for gracious. that's so childish. That's so childish. I'm sick of this. I'm not having you back on again, you know. And you know what? We're doing an episode about your favourite thing ever and you're not allowed to come on it. I think we've covered them all already.

Yeah. Fair. Sonic, listeners to my podcast, we'll know this. But after a lifetime of absolute nonsense and Mr. Men albums and Postman Pat and all of this stuff. Sonic Adventure is the CD that my mum said, can you not put that on that out again, please? Amazing. I love that. I mean, the thing with Sonic music,

and I'm just a quick aside, is I've been playing Sonic Frontiers lately because I hate myself. And the real reason is because I'm a Sonic fan and I have to see it through. I have to finish it. Like, I don't like it, but I really want to finish. shit so it's done and I can say I can criticise it now, you know? Not that

I haven't been shying away from criticizing it because I've been slinging off constantly, but the one thing about that game that I like the most is they added it in and patches the jukebox and as you go around the islands you can find hidden musical notes and when you collect them, you'll unlock a sonic song and they're from all across the series

so I'd be going around and I'd be like you'd have the normal music which is just just dour like slow piano like what are they thinking level music And then suddenly you'll unlock like Angel Island Where you'll unlock like live and learn And it's just like, yes, mate, yes Keeping in mind that your answer to this question

Could save or cost me 40 pounds, Stuart Do they have back in time from Sonic R? No Or I haven't found it yet Maybe Let's look this up I feel like the listeners are fully invested in this They need to know

They need to know Such a good song No No Is it the 50s Or 1989 Or whatever I was back in time

Wasn't it No What the hell was that Back in time From back in the future Oh well done Thank you Then yes

Did you get it Because it's got the same name So I pretended like it was that one See for a second there I genuinely thought You'd mistaken the lyrics of the song back in time from Sonic Carr is like, is it

the 80s or is it 19509? This is what I have to say, like, whenever I host Retronauts, it's always very patently clear to me that I'm it's succeeding despite me on some level. I feel like I'm detrimental to the entire

Retronaut's experience, but let's not dwell on that too much lest I get shit-cant Lovely.