Retronauts - 767: The Wind Waker Out of Context

Episode Date: May 11, 2026

With Ocarina of Time in the bag, it’s time for a belated British look at a toon-shaded titan. Stuart Gipp, Dave Bulmer and Seumidh MacDonald preside.Retronauts is made possible by listener support through Patreon! Support the show to enjoy ad-free early access, better audio quality, and great exclusive content. Learn more at http://www.patreon.com/retronauts

This week in Retronauts, though I don't have a script, if I did, I would be the king of red lines. Oh. It's the best. It's the best. It's the best I can do. Hello, welcome to Retronauts, the podcast with jokes like that. And sometimes we talk about computer games, you know, if things are going a little bit badly. Which, thankfully, they are.

So this should be an interesting episode full of devastatingly insightful critique. of the computer game known as The Legend of Zelda, the Wind Waker, best known for its GameCube bow in I forgot when it came out. Does anyone know off top of their head? 2002, I want to say? Hang on, let's find out.

It was, it was 2002, you nailed it, well done, well done. How was late as that? Well, actually, it was 2002 in Japan, very late December in Japan, but it didn't make it over here to 2003. However, I still think that counts. I think what you said counts. And of course, ten years later,

the Legend of Zelda of the Wind Waker HD, which was put out on the Wii U and devastatingly not the switch. You can blur all you like. I will blow. That's the version. Well, then blur away, my friend. I'm going to. But what we should do first before even blurting,

before even that, we should introduce such. It's not really bloody, is it? It's quite a high definition. Oh, God. Oh, honestly. Well, it's still better than the joke I led with, you know. I've set the bar so low that everything anyone says is going to be an absolute stitch. But, yes, let's introduce ourselves. I think people know who I am.

I'm Stuart Gip. Hello, and who's coming to me from Scotland there? Hello, I'm Shemi. I organise a big mug of coffee to get me through this recording, and I've just looked in my mug now, and there's a giant wad of dog hair in here, so I'm not going to be drinking that. You're going to say pick it out and then drink it, or drink around it? No.

Do you think that the dog hair floating in the coffee is reminiscent of the King of Red Lions floating on the Great Sea or whatever it's called? Not in any way, shape or form. Not remotely. Okay, I tried. Let me let the record show that I tried. Because the King of Red Lions skimming across the open sea inspires awe and excitement, and this inspires kind of revulsion and disgust. Yeah, you're quite right there.

I'd just like to let it be known for all the listeners that to humanize the podcast, And due to the fact it's quite hot, I opened my windows and didn't shut them and forgot. And what you're hearing now is an enormous aeroplane flying over. Right. And it seems to be constantly flying over and somehow not leaving. I don't know what's happening. And there's nothing I can do about it. I'm not going to jeopardise the people on that aircraft in any way for the sake of a podcast.

Quite a lot of been stones at it. Well, I have tried, but I can't reach. but who else is with us today, not from Scotland? I'm Dave Bulmer, and I'm here mostly in my capacity, as I usually am, as a person who remembers what it was like to play this the first time round. And I haven't played it again since. So I'm really going to be running on fumes today. You really should have done a full 100% playthrough of both versions.

I should, and I've not even touched it like the GameCube version. It's such a sacred memory to me that I've just let it be where it is. Yeah, I love it. loved it. That seems like a pretty good place to kick off then, don't you think, with Dave's exciting reminiscence of the Wind Waker. Do you not think? I mean, but people get enough of my excited reminiscences about things they either were or weren't there for, and if they were, they have better memories, and if they weren't, it's boring. I think the people have a bottomless capacity if you're remembering in all of the sea.

Okay, well, just to provide my bottom then for a moment, what I do remember about Wind Wendwaker, chance would be a fine thing. in the most, in the broadest sense, is that, you know, obviously we'd just had Ocarina of time, and I, more than you, had rather had my mind blown by that. But Wind Waker came along and went, yeah, but what if it was lovely? And that's my main memory of it, is just every moment of it being something of a delight. And of course, there are, not maybe not every moment of it, because later on there are, there are some tedious fetch questing bits and so on.

but I just fundamentally liked being in that world. I had enough time because I was just leaving uni. I certainly started playing this in my uni room and finished playing it in my flat with Abbey. So maybe that is why I'm able to like separate out all the memories. You know, the first half of it being just lovely experiences. And then all the tedious mocking about happened when life was being renewed anyway. So it was just like I partitioned it off in that way.

That's quite beautiful that. But, no, it was, I just flipping, flipping, loved it. I suppose a little mention ought to be made of the fact that, you know, and everyone knows this, so I'm only mentioning it so that people don't go like, you didn't mention it, is that when they first unveiled this, a load of guys went, blebblbblis, blu, blu, they went, bleh, no, Link is serious, and it should be drawn seriously.

And I was going, no, I think Link is from the Game Boy, and he's a sweet little Elfi guy, and this is absolutely perfect. So that was my, as I was playing it, I was like, finally a return to real Zelda, basically. That's very interesting. I hadn't conceived of that before. Like, the idea that it's the extension of something like Link's Awakening, where things are necessarily simplified. Well, so that was, I must admit, my introduction to Zelda. I saw the cartoon on TV, but that's my first Zelda game.

Oh, the tremendous cartoon, yeah. Yeah, and I just thought and still think that it's perfect in every way. The actual Game Boy original game is just gorgeous and beautiful. The Legend of Zelda, Link's Awakening, you are referring to. I am referring to that. I mean, that's my Zelda. That's my favorite, Zelda. It's perfect.

I think we may have talked about it before, but I had never actually thought of that notion of, like, we're transposing this more abstract, aesthetic into, you know, cutting-edge visuals. Because, at least that's how I interpreted it. Because when you take a little sprite like that, there are two different kinds of people who are going to play that game. And same goes for the SNES game. Same goes for the NES game. One of those types of person is going to play it and see what it is on the screen.

And I saw a sweet little cartoon boy walking about. Another kind of person is going to go, this is meant to represent something else. And I'm imagining that thing. So they imagine a realistic guy. And that is kind of what, Ocarina of Time gave us, you know, it moved in that direction as close as an N64 could.

Yes. But, no, I liked it being a little cartoon guy, and so this was kind of my Zelda when this came out. I was like, yeah. They were also coming off Majora's Mask, which is a much moodyer, more atmospheric sort of effort. They're not the way I've beaten that one yet. Shamey, how did you come to Windwaker?

Do you know when that was, and in what circumstances and what you took away from that? Yeah, well, I had played Link's Awakening back when I had the Game Boy, the Game Boy Pocket, because that was my first console, the Game Boy Pocket. Good place to start.

Links Awakening was like, I think, like, the fourth game we got for it, and barely made it to the first dungeon. Could not figure that game out at all. But we enjoyed it. And so when I got my GameCube and saw, oh, the legend of Zelda, oh, I remember Zelda, that'll be good. And then I bought the Wind Waker.

So I completely skipped O'Korena and Majora. Like I said, in the Ocarina of Time episode, my first exposure to O'Carena of Time was as the free packing with the Wind Waker. Yeah, the bonus disc, right, yeah. So I had no idea about this controversy at all. It was just, I picked it up, I put it in, I started playing, and it was, like Dave says, it was lovely. Yeah.

It was just a very, very pleasant game to, look at and to play. Although, having said that, I did get to Forcaken Fortress and just stop playing for a long time there. The barrel stealth thing, right? Yes, because I found this...

That's very early on the game. I know, I know, I know. I imagine... When I had it on the GameCube, I did the same thing, so I get it. But go on, sorry. I imagine that the idea behind the Forcaken

Fortress was that it actually takes a lot of the danger out of the game because you can't actually die. If you get caught, you don't die. You just get put back into prison. So I kind of imagine that's what they were going for, but for me that was even more stressful because I couldn't fight them. Is it the psychologically losing a life or getting a game over for me is less irritating than being sent back to the start, if that makes sense?

Yeah, I think it was a combination of having to navigate this 3D space because you have to take down all of the searchlights. Yes. Having to navigate that in this fairly repetitive layout while also being constantly shunted back to the prison cell to start again, I think that kind of confused and annoyed me. How do you like, have you replayed this game? like in HD

because what I find fascinating and I always find this is the case now in Ocroweaner of time I'm going to get some details wrong so please forgive me naughties but is it the Garudo Fortress where there's a similar stealth section? Yes, yeah

I found that epoch definingly irritating I could not do that and the Forsaken Fortress for whatever reason now I played it I played Wind Waker HD I played the Wii U version

full disclosure I don't know if they made it easier or something because I had no issue with that whatsoever. I don't know. I just found it completely easy. But this was functionally my first 3D games. Yeah, no, no. That's what I'm not my first, but one of my first.

What interests me about it is that there are things in games like this, like the, I don't want to mention it because it ruins the joke, but the barrel, the Carnival Night Zone barrel. I speak, of course, of the sticking points of legend, the myth, the folklore of gaming. And it does make me wonder to what extent it is a reflection of the player and whatever situation they were in

or whatever standard they were at when they played the game. Because playing it now in HD, for me, and I'm not good at Zelda games, anyone who's seen me stream them, can vouch for that. For me, it's just kind of, I don't know why, but it's just like, no, that's fine. I have no issue with this. The rules seemed very clear

to me. Yeah, yeah. No, it is demonstrably fine. I'm not, sorry, I was telling you that as my experience with the game rather than to criticise force. No, no, I get you. I just, I just find that stuff interesting because it's the stuff that passes into like, not received opinion

but everyone would say like, oh yeah, that game's great, except for this, but, you know, everyone would say that. And it's always interesting to me where the difference lies in what I or someone else would find incredibly difficult, but for anyone not in that position, they would just

walk it. I don't know. It's interesting to me. I'm sorry. I get in the tangents. But yeah, no, like, I got stuck in there for a wee while and then I can't remember when I picked it back up, but I picked a back up and kind of, I'm fairly sure I got through it fairly

comfortably, and I just had a great time with it, just enjoyed it from start to end. I mean, it's probably not, it's a common notion of, like, when you have a game that's not a stealth game and they introduce a stealth section, that's a big sticking point for a lot of people. I agree with that, to be

honest. I often don't enjoy it because they don't really have the, either they have two complex mechanics or not complex enough mechanics, and that kind of sticks in my craw, but for me... Well, I look into my psyche is that I don't remember minding that

section because you were wagging about inside a barrel and it just looked funny and cute and I liked looking at it, so it's okay. It's good. I mean, it's... You could argue that it is quite literally scraping the barrel, though. couldn't you if you wanted to do it as a funny joke. I think it is oddly paced because it is like you start the game expecting, you know, Zelda, sword fight, sword and shield, like, you know, the traditional Zelda stuff.

And then you get given the sword. And there are basically no combat encounters to speak of before the sword is then taken away from you again. And I would have thought that that kind of section would have been better as a kind of. of like midgame pace breaker. Like a way to kind of shake things up in the midgame to stop be getting too complacent. But it's kind of, it's front-loaded that bit. And I don't quite understand the logic, but then this was a game with a lot of development issues, wasn't it?

It was. It's something that's definitely going to come up because, I mean, I think to myself, I guess the reason they do that is to make it so that when you return to the forsaken Fortress, you are now just like a death machine and it's all just breezy as hell. But it is an interesting choice to put it that way and you're mentioning the pacing is just interesting as well

because I think this is a game that both does and doesn't have enormous pacing issues. It's like sort of Schroding as... Is that any pronounced it? Shroding is pacing? It's weird. It's like... The structure of Wind Waker, which we must talk about, is

extremely strange and I can't think of anything else like it that I've played. because obviously there is the sense of freedom when you get out onto sort of, I'm going to call it the Great Sea, because I think that's what it's called. Yeah. Once you get out into the Great Sea,

you have the freedom to more or less go anywhere, and if you have the bait for the fish fella, you can fill out the map, gradually learn more about it, what items are hidden in which square. I'm pretty sure every square has at least one significant sort of thing to do in it, or at least some kind of information that you need. And for me, when I played it, I forgot about the fish.

And I, similar to a poena in a way, I never realized it was missing because I never really felt particularly like I needed it. And I wasn't, I didn't really clock about like how some of the squares were filled in and some weren't. I just thought, well, they will be eventually, you know, because I'm so used to mod on open worlds that as you go into the uncharted spaces, they will automatically populate the map for you. And no, it doesn't do that. And then, of course, when someone reminded me about that, I realized that I was at, reached the Triforce Hunt stage of the game. Admittedly, the neutered Wii HD version. But I realized that I had nothing to go by.

You have the Triforce map, but then you still need to find the islands that it corresponds to. And that ended up being a huge chunk of my playthrough. because, to be frank, the rest of the game is not particularly difficult. The dungeons are quite straightforward, I thought, the whole way through. The wind dungeon is the only one I can remember being a little bit tricksy, but even then I didn't really have any problems with it. But I kind of liked that coming off Ocarina, where I was stuck in everything, and everything seemed so difficult.

I was suddenly playing this much breezier, more colorful, cartoonish, yet still involving emotionally experience. I would say more of it. I mean, there's obviously going to be spoilers in this podcast, but this segment when you go to, when you see Hyrol suspended in time underwater. That's amazing. Right.

Well, I was already getting into it. I'm not really a Zelda law person, or at least I wasn't. I bought Hyrule Historia yesterday, because I now want to know about this stuff. And I'm looking forward to reading it, but not only having played O'Karina quite recently, and going into what is suddenly

you realize it's Hyrule Castle when the music starts playing. Yeah. And initially, I'm like, I don't know about Zolder Law. I don't know about these things being connected. I have no idea about that. I know there is a timeline, but I don't know what the actual connections are. I don't have done my research.

I haven't played the games. How could I know? And I hear that music. And I'm like, oh, that's odd. It's an interesting choice. Is this, is this Hyrule Castle? You go outside and you see the field. You see Hyrule Field, you know, and it's different, but it's obvious what it is.

Yeah. And there's that sudden realization that I had of just like, oh, this isn't spun off. This isn't another timeline. This is many years after. This is the first time they did that, as far as I can remember. This is like, apart from just like, this is a Zelda game so we're going to do references to Zelda stuff. No, no, references is the wrong word.

No, I get what you mean because that's what I thought it was initially. I just thought, oh, that's cute. Oh, wait, no, it's not cute. It's devastating. But what I mean is that in the previous games, they would have like an octarock because it's a Zelda game.

This is the first time that they went, now then. Do you remember that previous game you played? Well, check this out. Well, this is, I have, this might turn into a tangent because this is a bug bearer of mine. No, it's all good.

I have an issue. with the way that the Zelda timeline has been consecrated. Yep. Preach. Because, like, Miyamoto and Al-Numa maintain, and have maintained for years that they have been maintaining this timeline internally, and they all, they know what, like, where everything goes, and each new game that comes out is supposed to fit into this grander saga.

and first of all, I think that's rubbish. I don't think they do that. Nope. Second of all, even if it's not rubbish, it doesn't have as much of an effect as just playing through the games, right? It doesn't improve my experience with the games to know, oh, right, well,

a link to the past actually comes after Link's Awakening. I think it ruins it. Yeah, because I don't need to know that. I think these are like vibes based. You know, like, I think these are about like how they can like remix and reinterpret these traditional ideas. And that's what I think made the High Rule Castle reveal so spectacular in Windwaker. It was the fact that if you are familiar with this series at all, you will know that music and you will know that setting. and even if you hadn't played like

Ocarena of Time specifically the iconography is so broad and so... The iconography is so broad and the music's so familiar even if you'd played a link to the past that this... Because that's how I did it.

No, I must have played Ocarina at this point as well but like I would have played a link to the past before that. Yeah. And I think it is more special and more magical if rather than concern yourself with oh it goes Minish Cap

and in the Four Swords Games and then O'Korena of Time which then branches into three timelines and so Wind Waker comes after O'Koreen of Time in this timeline I think rather than concern yourself with that I think it is just if you go with the feeling of it, the feeling of returning to Hyrule and seeing

what it's become I think that's far more impactful than meticulous timeline tinkering. The Zelda time line is like the most wiki poison thing out there. What I reminded me of, which I found exciting, is that, and there's no one is ever going to have made this comparison before, so I feel actually like a bit of a godlike genius here. It reminded me of Curse of Chuckie.

I think that's what it's called. It's the one where you think it's a reboot, but then halfway through the movie, Chuckie pulls the makeup off his face to reveal that it's actually a sequel. and it's a great moment. I thought it was a bit like that. And I don't, again, I'm not that... I mean, I think that connecting the games in these small ways is nice. I quite like it, especially if they do it with some grace, like they did here.

Well, yes, I think grace is the word for it, because I think this bit in Wind Winkaker is very graceful. Yeah, connecting it is great. What they do internally by putting the games on some... Like, either by putting them on a timeline or putting them on a non-rigid timeline, because it seems like every time a new game comes out, somebody has to update the timeline because it's gone wrong now. Yeah.

That's great. It's just mapping it out isn't in the spirit of it. It's always felt like another telling of a legend. And when that was the official line, it was much better. It's fun, though, isn't it? To do that? Yeah, if you're a big dork. Well, I'm a big dork.

I'm a big dork. I'm a present retronauts for fuck. sake. It was, I think the Zelda timeline was a lot of fun when it was like something that fans were working out by spotting little references. And this game was the strongest one. It's when they published it. Then they canonised it.

Right. Yeah. Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. I do get what you're coming from. I think the frustration may be more with like the insistence rather, because the execution of the games is fine.

Yeah, yeah. To me, the insistence is what's frustrating. the sort of no, this is not correct. Well, it's the thing, it's kind of like ending explained videos, right? Now, people play a Zelda game while furiously scribbling notes to work out where on the timeline it is. And that is against the spirit of it. You're supposed to just play it and recognize things. Is it like, yeah, no, I do understand that.

I do. Because it's supposed to be a legend, isn't it? It's supposed to be a story eternally retold. That's what I thought, yeah. So what you're saying is my copy of Hyraultist story, is now out of date. What I'm... Well, yes, it is.

It literally is. It's been more games. It cost me 12 pounds. Well, listen, it cost me loads more. And I've kind of regretted the purchase ever since. Well, but this is it. Because so far as I understand it, after the release of Breath of the Wild, I think, a few years later, anyway, they released a new compendium.

Oh, really? Yeah, that updates the timeline again and changes everything around. There's another timeline now, isn't there? Yeah. Yeah. So the timeline that is in the Hirao Historia is no longer the official timeline. Right. And like I say, at a certain point, I'm just kind of like, just leave it, lads. Just leave it out. It's fine. I'm going to put my foot through my copy of Hira Historia. I'm going to send Shigarayamoto the bill. That's what I'm going to do. Yeah. But yes, I thought, I think in isolation or otherwise, I do think it's an excellent piece of storytelling.

The thing I don't like about it, and I'm not going to harp on about it, because I know people will roll. their eyes, but I'm not a fan of what happens to Tetra. No. Because Tetra is a very vital character in that, and I very much like her presence in the game. But she becomes nothing. She gets transformed, realizes there's Zelda or something. I don't think that makes sense, to be honest. That's the part that felt underwritten to me.

It's just like, oh, by the way, you're Zelda. Like, what? Yeah. You know Zelda from Zelda? You're that. Oh, that's who they mean. That's what the title's about. I've always wondered.

It's this very strange execution of that idea because I can't remember where I read this. I'm not sure if this is like a fan theory or like it was just a little tidbit in one of the instruction manuals or what. But it might have been a gossip stone in Ocarina. Anyway, no, I think it was Zelda 2's manual. Anyway, the point being that like all the descendants of the High Rule royal line give their daughters the name Zelda. Yeah. So by technicality, I suppose, in a certain way, you could interpret her as being Zelda. That's great, that's fine.

I'm with you so far. But then it's like, as soon as she realizes that, she stops using the name Tetra that she has used her entire life. And she starts going by Zelda. And she becomes a completely different character. Yeah. Yeah, and a very banal character, unfortunately. That's what the problem was. That's what the problem was.

If she put on a version of the Zelda dress, it. accept cooler and looking a bit more pirity and just carried on being the same. It would have been brilliant. Well, I mean, if I want to jump ahead a bit, I'm going to come back, but like, you know, the finale, just to briefly mention it, when you are fighting Ganendorh alongside Zelda, which is very cool. How much cooler would it have been if you'd been fighting alongside Tetra, you know? Yeah.

If she'd have gone back to the Tetra costume for that scene, that would have been amazing. Because she sent her again in the ending. Well, this is what is weird about it, because again, to jump up, head to the ending. There's going to be major spoilers here. The theme of the game, it seems to me, is about leaving the Zelda cosmology behind, about leaving behind the idea that Zelda needs to be about Zelda, Gannon, Hyrule, Triforce, Master Sword. Watch it all the way, literally. It's like complete absolution, like of everyone. I mean, even Gannon-Dorff has the moment of

introspection in this game that I thought was genuinely devastating. Like, I was taken aback by that speech he does. I know it's very often quoted, but it's that bit where he's looking like, haunted, almost like, regretful, staring into space, saying, I coveted that wind, I suppose. Well, is that... And I'm like, oh my God, what are they doing to me? The fact that this version of Gannon, the part that drives him,

crazy is you would prefer this to me. You would prefer just destroying the world to letting me have it. And he seems very human and very bitter about that, which I think is excellent. But there's this sort of

implication of, I don't know of implication. It's more or less completely stated of like, yeah, I've made some mistakes. There's been a lot of death. There's been a lot of decay. But it's still the world, you know. It's almost dark soul. Sorry, but it is.

But, no, I thought it was wonderful, and I thought that the fact they gave Gannendorf something of a measurable motivation in this game was impressive, very impressive, and thematically very cogent, I thought. Like, the fact that he has you all the way to the end. Sorry, I'm going to just jump ahead, because we might as well.

This is that kind of discussion. Yeah, what in the week's done? We've all played this. What, and maybe this is all in my head. because I get very like as abstract and sort of conceptual about this stuff sometimes. I can't help it. But

the fact that Gannondorff's plan fails because he didn't have enough faith in Link really. He forces Link to fight these puppets because he's testing him if he's really the hero of time, you know?

And if he hadn't done that, the king, he could have just touched the Triforce. He could have just done it, but because he doesn't, because he stops and he makes, he doesn't believe in you, that's what his downfall is. The fact that it all comes down to just this incredibly minor little thing, I think is really interesting. But what I think... Sorry, go on.

What I think it's even more interesting about it is his response to it when he realizes that it's gone wrong again and he knows how it's gone wrong and he laughs. It's brilliant. Like, of course this is how it must happen. Of course. But then, of course, you're in the state of like, past the point of no return. There's nothing left but violence. It's very good, I think.

Yeah, it's astonishing. Yeah, it was absolutely amazing at the end of this. And this is, I'm going to go even further past the ending here. I do it. I need you to understand what it was like being there at the time and kind of being a Zelda fan at that time. because it was like what you had had Ocarina of Time, which was the greatest game ever made. And then Majora's Mask, which is like this spiteful reflection of O'Connor of Time.

And then Wind Waker, which is still carrying forward this spiteful reflection, but taking it in this whole new, apologies for the pun here, breath of fresh air direction that ends on the note that, yes, we need to move on from Zelda. need Zelda to move on and change and become something new, because we've done all we can with it, and like the King of Hyrule, and like Gannendorff, it's just exhausted now. It is, it's just, yeah, it reflects this kind of like, it's, it's this idea that oblivion is maybe it's okay sometimes. It, you don't, like, it can all come to an end. The fact that Zelda, the fact that Zelda is gone and it's Tetra again in the end.

is quite significant because it's like, no, these, well, they're not humans, but you get what I mean. This is who we are. We're not legends. We're here now. And we have to survive. We have to continue. And then from there, we got Minish Cap, which isn't about any. It takes place in Hyrule, sure. But it's like, there's no Death Mountain. There's no, like, familiar stuff. It's all new. There's the Light Force and Vati, which I thought was great. I was, like, really interested in that. Yeah. And then, so I thought this was it. I thought, oh my God, we are going to move forward. Zelda's going to become, who knows where Zelda could go from here? It could go anywhere. Yeah. And then we got Twilight Princess, which is just Ocreen of Time 2.0. Twilight Princess really felt like them, one of those instances where they listened to the fans wrong. You know what I mean? I completely, I was saying this to, I was talking about this with Shemmy off Mike, but for me, I'm playing that now. And I'm not going to talk about it too much because this is not a Twilight Prince's episode.

Yeah, doubtless, we'll do one. Playing, oh, God, yes, we might, if you like, swearing. You're going to get some of that. But for me, where Wind Waker, I think, is quite, it's weird to say this, but I think Wind Waker is minimalist in many ways. Wind Waker is about open space and freedom. And Twilight Princess is like the most maximalist Zelda game I can think of that I've played, and that includes something like Breath of the Wild.

It's like everything you do feels like you are told twice to do it. Yeah. And yet, despite all the tutorializing, and it is never ending in the first five hours of this game that I've played, maybe six, it's still completely esoteric what you actually do a lot of the time, I think. It's the worst of both worlds. It is constantly stopping you to tell you stuff that's not useful.

Yes. Like, I completely agree, yeah. And I don't hate it. I am having fun with it. But it's not like Wind Waker. Now, Wind Waker, to get on to Wind Waker, because I want to, this is the first time I've played this game. Sorry, do you mind if I just do one last?

By all means. By all means. There is one period that I need to put at the end of that thought. Yeah. Which is that, when Spirit Tracks comes out, and it is a sequel to Phantom Hourglass, which was a sequel to Windmill. Wendwaker. So these are like the same cat. These are descendants of this Zelda and this link who were told at the end of Wind Waker, when you find that new land, it will not be Hireul. It will be your land. Guess what they fucking call it. Sway the C.

Milton Keynes. Well, they call it Hireole. And the princess is called Zelda. And, you know, and I'm just like, come on, man. Like. I get it. I do. They never get to move past it. They chikined out of something good for a long time. They cuckoed out for sure. They got cooked. Wow. Waker, though.

I played this game through. I took me, I'm going to save roughly 30 hours to complete this game. I did not in any way, shape or form come close to 100%ing it. But I would say quite comfortably, and with a song in my heart, that it's my favorite of the 3D Zelda's, and I actually really liked it. Now, I spent most of my play-through complaining, because it's me.

But coming away from it, I think back on that game, and I just think, you know what, I'd play that again. I really liked that a lot. There's so much about this game that just made me smile, you know? It mixed, it merged together all the aspects of freedom and being guided, because you are very guided, even when you are out. the sea. It just works for me.

It's almost, I mean, for a 30-hour game, it felt breezy. I always felt like I was moving forward and achieving things and not getting hung up on esoteric nonsense. And I had my moments of getting hung up on esoteric nonsense that always inevitably turned out to be me not understanding some crucial mechanic. But everything just worked. Everything felt within reach if I needed it, you know? Now, the HD version I know

makes quite a lot of quality of life improvements and I do wonder if I were to go back and play the GameCube version on the Switch 2, for example, which is now where it's now available, I would have as good of a time. And I thought about it, and I honestly think I would probably be fine, you know? Yeah, and I think the improvements of the HD version,

I think, are a little overstated. Like, people are like, oh, this is a completely transformative experience. when it's, I don't think it is. Like there's a couple of very nice quality of life things. Like the Swift sale, I think is great. The way they've, when people say that they've streamlined the Trifor's quest, they don't mean that they've changed it in any significant way. They just mean that they've like taken out one extra little step of busy work.

Yeah. Because before you had, like you had to go back and forth to Tengals Island like one extra time for each shard. Whereas in the HD version, they just say, yeah, just have the shard. I mean, for me, by that point, I had so much money that it never felt like it would be an obstacle, a heart from the actual travel, which you can warp to anyway. Yeah, yeah. Like, I mean, they spew money at you in that game. I have a theory about that section of the game, which is going to be really getting into the weeds, really jipping quite hard, unfortunately. that I was talking about this with a friend of the show Task Architect, who I call other Chris.

I'm just giving him a shout out. I thought about the Triforce Quest. I thought about the fixes to the Triforce Hunt. Excuse me, not the Triforce Quest. It's Trifor's Hunt. Everyone knows that. And I started thinking about how could they fix this? How could they actually fix this?

How could they do this and retain the expiration and retain a sense of flow? And I started thinking about how this game had a lot of obviously development issues and how this aspect of the game may have been hamstrung in some way by those issues. And I came to the conclusion, I honestly don't think they could do it without ruining it completely. Because I thought the Triforce Hunt was good. I enjoyed it. It was a very enforced right, go and explore now, bit of the game.

And had I been exploring previously, which I hadn't, it would have mitigated it enormously. But I think my favourite memories of this game, other than the ending, is of me just sailing around on the sea, listening to the music, salvaging up rupees, getting into little fights on the sea,

find a little island, realize, oh, I've got the tool to do this now, you know, playing golf with the... There's an island where you play golf. You have to knock these balls into these holes to get like a piece of heart or something. And every single square of that game And there's probably like what,

64 squares maybe? I don't know, there's a lot Every single one of them has like a little puzzle Or a little challenge Like during the TriForce on I found this area under the sea That you get sucked into Where you have to shoot fire arrows

To light these brazias But they're hidden all over this Quite complex ruined ship Kind of thing that you can't actually reach you have to just use first-person mode and scan the environment until you see the brazier. Some of them really well hidden from certain angles. And I just thought, this is such a satisfying thing to just throw into one square and go, yeah, put that in the game. You know, it doesn't further the game.

It's not like a mini game. Someone just designed a cool idea for a challenge and thought, we have no way to fit this in the main story. Let's just put it in one of these islands. and you've got like 60 of those and I enjoyed all of them I mean I've complained before about this game's combat encounters not because the combat's bad because it's not

it's probably the best Zelda combat that I've played The way when you hit and it kind of goes dush and pauses a hit There's like orchestra hits and a hit stop and it's wonderful and of course the A button to do the counter attacks as well right and when you roll around and go up and get the guy

you jump over the dark nuts and you slash the armor strings and it falls off. It's just very reactive. It's not difficult. But the fact is when the game did get a little bit, I don't like using this word, but maybe a bit more lazy. Two or three of the Tri Force pieces

are found by doing extended combat arenas, like a series of rooms with different enemies in, or that pit where you keep going down and down fighting more and more enemies. And it goes on a bit. But because the combat is so fun, it's nice just to cut loose in

that way, even when it's reasonably brainless since the rest of the game isn't. I think it's okay to have that stuff in there, you know? It's so much more fun than the equivalent bits in something like Breath of the Wild. And I love, I love Breath of the Wild. That's like, to me, Breath of the Wild is kind of the thing that this game suggested at the end where it's like, we'll do something totally other. Yeah, Breath of the Wild, I feel like it's, if not, it's a spiritual follow-up for sure in the sense that you want to open the world that you explore. But it did make me think if they were to do a third Breath of the World

style the game, how cool would it be if it was the ocean? Well, I challenge you to ever be in a boat again and not think this is just like Wind Waker. Like, every single time.

I don't really get in boats because I'm not a member of the bourgeoisie. Well, look, now and then, if I'm hanging out with my parents who are on a little holiday somewhere near the sea, they'll go,

oh, there's a thing where you can pay a 20 quid and get on a boat for an hour. Let's do that. That's not bad for an hour. There was one where we were driving around, driving around, sailing around, and they took us to these little islands that were just little lumps in the sea,

and they were covered in seals and puffins. And it was the most Wind Waker thing ever, but the reason for that... That is very Wind Waker, yeah. The reason for that is that Wind Waker has such a character, and that is what you would lose. If you did streamline the Triforce Quest anymore, or if you didn't just sail around and explore,

it's so characterful that it takes something as fundamental as the sea and goes like yeah now you're going to think about this game whenever you think about the sea well i always think that the best way to play the wind waker is to just go through the story until you get to the trifor's quest and that's when you just clear out the entire map because by that point you've got all the items yeah and that is what's designed for that's always you're going to be you're going to be it's always you're going to be it's all the entire map because by that is designed for it's always my favourite part of it. Yeah, Stu, you were kind of saying that you worried that you did that the wrong way around. I did worry that, but you're right. That's how I did it. And I had a great time, you know, the only thing I got stuck on was I didn't know how to get to the ghost ship. I got there eventually. Because if you are, if you are going to all the islands, like after, let's say the second dungeon, after the forest haven, then you're not going to have the equipment to do anything. in a lot of these islands. You really need to have everything

in order to make sure you're getting the most out of it. And I think that is kind of a frustrating experience because you get to a new island, you go, oh, what's this? You spend like a few minutes poking around and then go, well, I can't do anything here, and then you just leave.

I agree. And it did make me think that it might have been nice if the HD version let you write notes on the map. You know, that I thought would have been nice. Like in Phantom Alaglass, you know. You got a Wii U game pad. You got a stylus. because you were saying as well about the combat encounters

but I remember absolutely loving them because the moment it sticks out for me the most in that game is when you get into Hyro Castle and there's all these frozen moblins and dark nuts roaming around and I'm like oh they're all frozen few this is fine then so we can just sneak by there's no problem and then you get the master sword and then they all unfreeze And I remember when I was a kid, thinking to myself, there is no way that they're going to expect me to fight all these guys. There's going to be a trick.

This is going to be like a misdirector or something. So I need to find a way out of here. But no, they really do expect you to fight all of those moblins and dark nuts. And I didn't even realize that I could. But like, fighting all of them and getting through that, I was like, this is so fun. What the hell? Like, I didn't think I could do this. I think what happened with me with that part is, and I think it might be a mistake.

Okay, let me ask a question first. The original GameCube version, when you do the Triforce hunt, do you get the Triforce map that tells you where about four of the pieces are? I think so, yes. Right, okay, because what happened with me is I got that chart, I obviously beeline to the marked areas, and the first two I went to happened to be nearly identical combat. And again, I enjoy the combat, but it did immediately make me think, oh, is this it? Is this what I'm going to be doing for the rest of these?

And of course, I happened to do the one, the pit that you go down. I went to another one, and it was the area with the three doors that you do in turn to light the torches. And then there's a second one of those that's almost exactly the same, just with slightly different enemies. And I got all of those in sequence, and it was just like, ah, this is why people don't like this because it's this. And it turns out no, I just by sheer accident happened to go to those ones because they were the ones marked on the map. But it made me think maybe they shouldn't have marked those ones. Maybe they should have made it so it's like, or even didn't mark them or made you buy the charts separately in the way that the GameCube did. And it made me think maybe the GameCube way of doing the Triforce Hunt was actually better because it forces you to engage with it more rather than just beeline to three places.

you know. I could be very mistaken about that, having not played the GameCube version to completion. But that's the impression I got that by streamlining it, by removing steps, they'd actually taken away some of the thrill of discovery and the sense of adventure and the uniqueness of the experience you're going to have.

I mean, marking something like the ghost ship makes sense to me, because then there is still another step you have to take in order to access it. But just to say directly, these three islands have trifles species on and also they're all combat-based. I thought that was a mistake, personally. But again, I don't know how I would fix it.

I can't think of a way of fixing it that doesn't just turn it into tidying up, you know? So it's a difficult one. But my favourite experiences probably were with the Triforce hunt when I was just taking the map at my own pace, sailing around, thinking about Assassin's Creed Black Flag, where I did much the same thing. having a lovely time

and we haven't talked that much about the dungeons have we no I think we probably should talk about the dungeons because there aren't that many of them are there no there are five and that is I think a sticking point for a lot of people

because if you went into this not expecting that then yes that is going to be disappointing and I think that's where a lot of the resentment for the Triforce Hunt comes from because people wanted another dungeon and instead they got sent out to explore. For me, I think exploring is like my favorite bit of Zelda, so I wasn't too sore about that.

But yeah, no, I can totally see why somebody would be disappointed by that because it means the game doesn't ever really build to a climax. But I think the biggest disappointment for me, the real shame for me, is that I think this game has such an amazing learning curve. I think those first three dungeons, are absolutely immaculate at kind of like ramping you up to kind of to figuring out how the dungeons work

and I only really think it hits its stride like it stops tutorialising you and starts really getting into the weeds of its dungeons in the last two. That would be the temple of wind and the temple of shadow or something. I don't remember. The one where you're with Medley and with the annoying little plant, Corrock guy.

Yeah. Yeah. It's the Wind Temple. I thought the Wind Temple was excellent. I thought it was truly like a special dungeon. I agree. That's one with the Korok Maker or something? Yes, Macar.

Yeah. Now that, yes, I agree with that. Now, I thought the dungeons in this game were pretty exceptional in general. And yeah, they were a lot easier than the ones in Ocaroenur of Time. And that's obviously by design, you know. I don't think it can be ignored that in, making air quotes tune link there is obviously more of an appeal to a younger audience here

obviously I don't think that that's something that can just be overlooked because it is an easy game even for someone like me it really was easy like the whole way through even the final boss is easy you know yes yeah I could eat yeah yeah I have no issue with that as long as it's fun and it was tremendous fun I enjoyed it enormously and my favourite dungeon and this is maybe a bit sad.

I liked the dungeon with Medley because I like Medley. I think Medley is an absolutely charming character, not least because you can essentially throw her into walls, which is a mean thing to do. But the fact that they've introduced this kind of idea that you're palming around with someone in this dungeon who is helpful, is useful, isn't annoying, and is crucial to solving the puzzles.

worked for me big time because when I first see Medley I immediately go oh my God I've got to escort this character but you kind of don't they've made it as simple as possible if you lose them they're going to go back to the door where you started in the room

they're just going to be there you can just go back and get them again it's very rare that you're in a position where you have to defend them there's the hand things, wallmasters are they floor masters I don't know that you have to defend her from but even then it's a case of

how do I get around this? How do I solve this? Not a case of attrition. And I felt like in the dungeons, almost every single room was interesting. I like the visual design of all of them. There's a puzzle in, I think it's in Medley's dungeon, and it's probably the most complex puzzle in the game, where you are moving blocks around and rotating things to get light beams onto this particular sort of dais on the wall. I think that's the word. Deus. And that's the sort of thing that, Ocarina of Time would have done my head in. But in this, I just found it so atmospheric and charming

and I wanted to solve the puzzle. I didn't want to look up the solution. I was like, no, I want to do this. And that room is almost like a puzzle box. As you move things around, the layout transforms and you suddenly go, oh, I see how to do this. I've got to go here. I've got to get the mirror shield, but I can't go there unless I move this

and I can get up on top of this and jump to this. And I'm just like, this is what Doulder Dungeon should be for me. It's this sense of discovery without patronizing you, but also without pointlessly being obtuse, which I feel like Twilight Princess is so far. And it made me just kind of like, I don't know how to describe it. I just think it's fantastic. I enjoyed all the dungeons, and I did enjoy the overworld as well, and the overworld is usually the part I don't like. But because they made the overworld into

something where the traversal is thoughtful, at least before you get the swift sail, because once you've got the Swift Sail, it's like, well, I've done enough of that now. I can just, I've earned this, you know? Yeah. Because I didn't mind adjusting the wind, adjusting the sail. I don't think if I played it on the GameCube, that would particularly bother me, because that to me is like, while it does take a little while, so does most of it. So this is not exactly a fast-paced game.

It's a fast-moving game, but it's not a fast-paced game. You have to just get into the summer vibes and get, you know. I do think that perhaps Windwaker, is reliant on you having, like, kind of nothing else to do, because it's slow and it's gradual, and that's a good thing. And so if you start to go, or rather that's the character of it, if you start to go, like, how do I speed this up? I think you lose something.

I thought that having the dungeons towards the end of the game where you were accompanied by a Macca, I forgot the name again, Maker. Macar. Macar, sorry, sorry. If I had Macar, I would just drive to the exit. Sorry, that's rubbish. No, but the thing is that every single time he got lost, I ended up saying, dude, where's my car? Okay, that was pretty good.

But it's not, it takes away from that whole thing of just go in a dungeon, eventually you're going to get a dungeon item, and then that's the solution. And yes, that does happen in the game. But there's always something going on that's not just the pattern. Having medley around, having Macaar around, and changing the way you traverse. without having to rely on a new dungeon item which you will also get, I think it just makes for a much more interesting dungeon. They pack a lot into a very compact space, don't they?

Yeah, basically. That's kind of how I feel about the game broadly. It does feel like the Lynx Awakening ethos of every space has to be significant in some way, even if it's just a piece of heart, even if it's just a chart, you know, everything's worth doing. and nothing sucks.

That's what I like about it. This is kind of the... I guess this is like a huge talking point. So I rarely, if ever, go back to play the 3D Zelda's. Except like Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. I think those kind of like hit different for me. But like Wind Waker is the first of the games where I find this phenomenon where I think, oh, I should replay that.

That was a lot of fun. and I start playing it and I get bored very quickly because I know everything that's coming. And I know how everything works just because I know how Zelda works. It is the point where I think the dungeons are so meticulously,

expertly designed and conveyed that it leaves fewer surprises on a return visit. There's not much interest on a return visit. turn visit. Yeah. And that is why the Zelda game that I replay the most is the first one,

is because you have that level of freedom to go and do the dungeons and do the overworld in different orders. You know, it still feels quite expressive to play that game. But this is kind of it. Is that my complaint with the later Zelda

dungeon ethos is that it's too good. Yeah. It's that it's too world class. I get what you mean. It's that whole thing of like when everything is so elegant and meticulous that you lose the sense that you are really important in the space, I think. It's all you're doing is what you have to, what you're supposed to do, you know?

Yeah, it's an odd complaint to vocalise. I do know what you mean though. And I'm trying to think of another example I can push, but But yeah, when you're part of something that's so... Not piecemeal, but you have to do it in a certain way in a certain order, and there's really no way around that. Like, there's no room for player expression, really. It's do it this way, or you won't succeed. It's not a difficulty thing.

It's kind of a logic thing. It's kind of being locked into someone's idea. And it's like, no, this is my game. I'm expressing my play style, not yours. I know. I have to explain it. For example, just random example, but like the ice island, where it's spewing ice everywhere and if you step foot on it, you die.

Yeah. Or you respawn it back in the boat, rather. And what you need to do is you need to go and get the fire arrows from mother and child aisles first. And then you need to go to the ice island and shoot the fire arrow at the entrance at spewing ice. in order to heat it up just enough for five minutes so you can go in and get the item that's inside. So your first time through, there's a lot of fun and satisfaction

in piecing that together, you know, because you're wanting to see what's inside. You're waiting to see, oh man, what's in there? What, like, what cool item will I get? How will I advance the plot? Like, that's exciting. That's interesting. And also figuring out, like,

how to get to mother and child islands is a bit of a circuitous route, you know? So once you've pieced that together yourself, that's interesting and engaging the whole way through. Yeah. On repeat visits, that's nothing. I now know that you need to go and fight the big cycle. When you see the cyclone, go and ping some arrows at it

so that you get the warp, so that you can warp to Mother and Child Isles, so you can get the fire on ice arrows, so you can go to the ice island and shoot the fire arrow at the entrance so you can go in. Yeah. Whereas, for example, maybe if you had a very limited time on the island where you could survive, maybe a skilled player could dash in and grab the item before they die or something like that. But the game doesn't want you to do that. It wants you to follow this very, very rigid sequence of events.

And once you know that very, very rigid sequence of events, it's kind of nothing. It's just kind of busy work. So it's a game that like sort of sings on your first play-through. I mean, that's been my experience, obviously. I can relate to what you're saying, but I haven't replayed the game. And I'm not sure what would stick in my crore if I did. Knowing now what I do know, my temptation is to replay it on the original GameCube version, you know, so I can see what that's like. Well, it's worth finding out what it's like.

But I kind of agree with this. Obviously, my memory is much less. clear than either of you because I haven't played it in a long time. But that's because whenever I have tried to play it again, yeah, there is this feeling of like, I don't need to do this anymore. It was a wonderful experience that happened once. I think Chey Mae's got it exactly there what I'm failing to understand what I'm feeling. A fundamental issue I have with the Zelda series thus far, and it does carry into Windwick for me. And I think this has probably been quite widely debated, but the fact that, and I'm sorry, this is going to

sounds so facile. Okay. Is that the word facile? Fascile? Fassile. Fassile. Excuse me. I've only ever read it because I'm very clever. No, no, I've done. Don't think I'm clever.

You've never been called facile to your face? No, I never have. You think? You think. I usually get called something else like bald. No, I won't say that word. The,

a sticking point I do have with Zelda, and it's going to seem childish, is that you can't jump at will. And I know, okay? I know that it's designed around that. But I honestly feel like I would like all the games more if you could, because feeling like you're stuck to the ground makes it so much more rigid for me. I do agree with this, even though I know it's wrong. In the later games, of course, in Breath of the Wild, I think maybe Skyward's Sword. I'm not sure. You can jump. It's just, we've all just been trained that jumping is the basic thing in games. So you are aware of the lack of it whenever there is a lack of it.

Well, it's, I think psychologically, things like that just feel more like you're in control and you're not just moving a little puzzle piece around, you know, because if you, I mean, when I'm in the boat, when I'm sailing on the Great Sea, you know what I'm doing all the time for no reason? What? Jumping. I'm doing a little Mario car boat jump because you can. Oh yeah, you can jump with the boat, aren't you? Yeah, I was doing that a lot.

And I'm doing it all the time because it makes me feel more in control and more free. And then, of course, once you're allowed. it's back to like oh there's like a knee high rock there you better just walk into it for a full second um an issue i ran into with twilight princess that is carried across the series as well is now twilight princess for the first about five hours it feels like almost every puzzle is solved by finding the right invisible fucking spot to stand on and press the l button to conduct do something context sensitive you know i don't like that i don't like it when they put a million things on one button. It's one of my absolute pet peeves.

I think Windwakeer mostly avoids it, but it's not perfect for it. I can tell you that. I also think, while I'm complaining, do you not think it's a bit weird that you get the hook shot and you get the sling rope thing? Aren't they the same?

It is a little, it is a little weird. I think there are two things that mitigate it. It's number one, they're both at complete opposite ends of the game. Very true. But also, part of the problem, I think, is that the grappling hook in the original

GameCube version was nowhere near as good. I was going to say, my memory of it is that one was a baby training one and then one was like an upgrade. If they kind of make them the same in their remake. Well, the thing is they are separate items and you do need to use both to do different things. But the problem is I feel like the hook shot

could do both of puzzles if that makes sense. It's a bit of a disconnect for me. Yes, because they are both functionally just long chains or ropes with a hook on the end. But one is one where you like swing it around and toss it over arm and the other one is just one that like springs out and in.

Yeah. I see what you mean. I know exactly what you mean. You're kind of like, well, why is it that wearing the iron boots and using the hook shot? Well, no, I suppose it's not really so much the actual logic of it as it is the game design. Like why did you have these two very similar items? For me, it's more that like in the final dungeon there is this puzzle you must solve, which is you actually have a few options.

It's the room with the lava. You can solve it by using the... I don't know what it's called. Is it just a grappling hook? The rope point, right? If you use the grappling hook, you can then climb the grappling hook to the top and stand on the platforms.

That's how I did it. But it made me just think, like, but why can't I hookshot onto that platform and then stand on it? It would be quicker. It would be perfectly possible, given the logic of the hookshot that has been established.

But the game just won't lay. you do it. So for a while I was kind of like, but I can't swing across there. It's not possible, you know, until I realized, oh, you're supposed to use the thing to just, and then just climb it. It's the same solution, but you come to it in a more convoluted way, I think. And to me, that was a bit of a flaw. But I'm only just saying that because I'm in the portion of the, of the episode where it's more negative and the stuff that I didn't like. And I think that what shame and you have and you, David, sorry, I know why I said

you as if I was talking to either one of you specifically, I'm talking to both of you all times. What you said really, to boil it down is there's the replay value isn't there for this one, you know, or at least not in the same way. Because while there is

freedom in the game, it's fundamentally hamstrung by the fact that it's not really worth doing until you have all the items. So for the first like 20 hours, you're going to be doing exactly what you're supposed to. Exactly. Yes. That's literally it. I think on replays, I've only ever managed to make it to like Tower of the Gods before I'm like, yeah, okay, I'm kind of fed up with this.

I mean, obviously it's going to be different from person to person, obviously. Of course. Well, I know there's a lot of people for whom replaying Zelda games is a very, like, joyous experience. And that's, like, that's not to take away from them. It's just kind of like the way that I feel. Yeah, I mean, I didn't really need to say that. It's just, it's like, it's just interesting, I think, how different people respond to these things differently. I didn't think that that was you. It's just that I know how Zelda fans are. I've been having this discussion for a very, very long time, and it often gets quite fraught.

When I never mean to be, like, dismissive? No. Because the only Zelda that I would say outright, yeah, I did not enjoy that was Skyward's sword in the week. Yeah. Agreed. Which I'll be getting to eventually. Yes, looking forward to that. I think something interesting that's come up from this

that I think is pretty sparkling actually is the comparison for Link's Awakening and to 2D Zelda in general because now that I think about it, what is the other Zelda game that has a grid-based map like that? It's Link's Awakening, isn't it? Yeah, and at some point in that game, you realize, oh, I'm going to look at my little map

and I'm going to go and fill in those squares and that becomes, in a totally different way, just kind of in your own head, but that becomes a little goal that you have. Interestingly enough, Link's Awakening is a game I've replayed about six times, and that's also very regimented in how you progress. So it really does

feel like that. That's the thing. It's like for me is I've only fully played through Link's Awakening once. It's the same situation for me with Link's Awakening. Although I did have a replay of it a couple of years ago, and I got to the final dungeon

and then stopped, so I don't know what was up with that. I can just say you beat it. It's close enough, isn't it? Because I just finished playing through Zelda 1, then Zelda 2, then a link to the past, and then Link's Awakening. And I think at that point the hyper-fixation had worn off. So I was like... I roll fixation.

That's just too much Zelda, isn't it? No fixation. Very good. Thank you. But the... Yeah, it's just I don't find very much replay value in those more kind of the regular Zelda's. You've got the video about Zelda's. Zelda won, which I'd recommend

to anyone. It is truly excellent. And you know, I tried Zelda 1. I don't know what to do, man. It was actually, that video was actually nominated for a Pulitzer. Really? No. I just made that much. I don't know why I said really.

I ruined the joke, didn't I? It wasn't nominated for a Pulitzer. It won the fucker. You're a Pulitzer Prize winning YouTuber. That's amazing. That's, like, this, I should put, I should say that. I should say that I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning YouTuber.

Yeah, there's no way of verifying that. I wasn't going to check. No, no. Like, this is the thing. It's not like, and if anybody does check, I can just say it was a joke. That's true. Because, you know, I'm workshopping this new kind of joke. It's just called a lie.

Oh, yeah, it's pretty good. I quite like it. A dishonest sort of humor. I appreciate it. Now, Zelda 1 is like, I do want to play through it. I want to get it. Because the reason I'm doing these episodes and doing these Zelda's is because, as I've mentioned before, I don't play them, I haven't beaten them. They are some of the most acclaimed,

well-known, famous, important milestone games ever made, and I feel like I must play them. I must this year finish them, or maybe into next year as well, and have a valid opinion of them that's based on having actually finished the damn games. It's like why I still stick the Simpsons on in the background and season like 30, whatever I'm up to, because I don't want to be the guy who's going, this show sucks now. It's a lot. It's garbage. And then people will be like, oh, well, you haven't watched this one? And I'm like, yes, I have. And it was tragic. Okay. I'm watching those goddamn episodes so I can tell people that they're bad. I think it's a form of serious mental illness. But I'm doing it. Okay. Well, no, this is, but it's true. I do the same thing, right? Like, again, I told this story recently. I played through Eldon Ring twice. Yeah. Right? I played, I've got 250 hours in Eldon Ring.

right? I played through it once. I got to millennia and it bugged out. So I only did the first phase, a really difficult boss that has two phases. So I finished the first phase. She got to the second phase, but her health bar didn't restore. It stayed at zero. So she got to second phase instantly died. That's what you call a gimmie? Well, no, it's not a gimmie because I went, well, fuck, now I need to play through the whole game again to prove that I've done it. And so I did it. Again, I played through the entire game again. I beat Melania properly. I beat every single boss.

I beat the final boss. And so I could cross my arms and say, yep, I hated that. That was rubbish. I think it's very respectable. Quite a stubborn guy, haven't you? I think it's very respectable. Like, I think it's the apotheosis of criticism, to be honest.

It's like... This is the thing. There's two things about it. It's number one is I wanted to like it so badly. I really, really did. I'm considering going through a third playthrough because I've just discovered something that I think might make me enjoy it more.

Did you find out about the attack button? There's an attack button? Oh my God, show me. But the second thing about it was was that I don't believe in slagging something off unless I've actually put in the time to engage with it properly. I don't want to sit there.

and go like, I mean, for example, Dark Souls 2, right? I'm actually just playing that through now. Like, ostensibly for the first time, apparently I've already got 20 hours in it. I do not remember. But I'm playing that through, and I'm not enjoying it, because I think, like, the animation, I think it's really janky. I think the animations are really, really, like, are really bad in a way that feels bad to play for me.

But I'm still going to go through that fucker, because, I don't want to come in and just give you a half-baked, unformed opinion, if I'm going to have a discussion about it. Yeah. I mean, I don't want to create the impression that I started playing these Zelda games so I could say, oh, the shit, actually, because that's not, you know, what I'm going for here. And Ocarina, I mean, as we've heard on the previous episode about Zelda with us, I didn't enjoy it, and I think I've pieced together the reasons why I didn't enjoy it and how I hamstrung my own experience. and with Wind Waker

I was just taken aback by the fact that I could sit up and say you know what? That's a good fucking game. I had a great time. I really enjoy playing that game. I had issues with it, yes, but I have issues with everything, you know. And having played Ocarina and not liked it, I think made me like Wind Waker even more. If I hadn't played Ocarina,

maybe I wouldn't have liked Wind Waker. Maybe I wouldn't have seen the ways that it shaved off the issues that I had with that game. I mean, then again, I played the Wii U version, you know, with the upgraded graphics, with the upgraded. Well, I say upgraded graphics. That's obviously a point of contention, but... It doesn't matter as much as people say. It doesn't matter as much. I feel like I ought to qualify my blur at the start, which was mostly joking.

You should absolutely explain your blot. Well, it's literally only about the graphics, because I tell you right, here's an analogy that you two guys will probably understand, and our listeners may not. Cool. I love analogies. Do you remember when, for some reason, they recolored a load of Archie comics by doing all this weird lighting effects and shadowing on them when... The Sonic one, she mean? The Sonic Archie Comics when... Yeah, because they did a digital recolor of them.

Yeah, and it was terrible. I forgot that Archie means something else if you're not a weird Sonic nut like us. And it was terrible. This is not terrible, but it's like... The reason why those recolors were worse is because that art was designed for flat color, like they used to doing comics in those days. And so was Windwaker. And the whole point of it is for it to have a very specific, very limited look to it.

And it was designed very carefully and precisely and perfectly. And so if you then just throw a load of bloom effect, like if you then take those shapes and designs literally and say they are existing in this world, so therefore light acts normally around them, you've ruined it. And that's what Windwick great... taking away from Wind Waker's sort of, I mean the original Wind Waker, you know how it opens with the text crawl and the sort of stained glass representations, I think, of what's happening.

And then when you go into the actual game, the visuals are not a million miles away from that stained glass aesthetic, you know, they're abstract. The visuals in a lot of ways were Wind Wakers raise on death through. Because, again, this was the thing. It's like after Majoris' masks,

they didn't want to make another Zelda. like our Anuma didn't have any more ideas. He didn't, it was like, I'm like, what more can I do with Zelda? We literally made the best game ever. You know, and so, but what it was was somebody came in with a design for Toon Link. Because of course, like, this was a huge part of it. A huge part of the backlash was you had that Space World 2000 demo, which was showing off the power of the GameCube with like a very realistic Lincoln Gannon fighting each other.

Yeah, and everyone just sort of got the wrong end of the stake and thought that was going to be The game that was... Yeah, that's the game that's coming to the GameCube. Yeah. But they didn't want to make that game or any Zelda game in the same vein. It was only when they saw Toon Link and realized the opportunity to take it in a new direction, that they became enthusiastic enough to make another Zelda. And I think you can see the benefits just by playing.

Like, the way that Link will look at key items and objects, like, out the corner of his eye and get a little, like, peaked face on. Like, you know, he'll open his mouth, like, oh, oh, what? What's that? Yes. You know, that's so charming and it's so good. His lovely little face is always doing something all the time in the game. It's, yeah, it's got so much character and sense of place to it, I think.

And that's what drew me in. The original looks incredible, even to this very day, I think, because of that strong art style. But you know, the, do you mind if I very briefly interject, like, you know the early, I think it's the first boss, the lava one where you use. the grappling hook to pull the ceiling onto it or something. Yes. On the GameCube, I remember the smoke and flames and plumes looking incredible. Oh, yeah. I remember thinking this is astounding.

But in HD, not so much. It just looks like a normal game. Yeah. And that, to me, was a huge point of contention. And I like the normal game graphics. I mean, this is the way I've played the game. This is what the game looks like to me in my head, which is what makes me think I really should play the GameCube version

and get the full picture. Oh, it looks perfectly good. It's kind of like, here's another analogy, it's like the recent Asterix animated miniseries on Netflix. One of the best animations that has been done

in the last 10 years, maybe even 20, it's brilliant. It has a quite good dub. And if you sit there watching the dub, you'll go like, yeah, yeah, that was good. But if you watch it in French

with the subtitles, you will be laughing your absolute arse off. But if you just play it with the dub, it's good enough that you're going like, yes, it's good. I don't need it. any better than this, it's fine. But you're missing just some little spark. Yeah. I do wonder if I've, sorry, shaman, I keep talking. Sorry, it's, it's, sorry, I went on a very tangential route to get here.

That's good. Because a huge part of that game's art style is its use of color. Like, when you are in that first dungeon and it's all very, like, hot and red and, like, very, very intense. And then you walk outside and all of a sudden, it's like a very bright blue. That's the first time I can ever remember actually feeling like I was less, like the moment I felt stifled in there. And then I felt like a huge breath of fresh air when I walked outside and it was all blue. Like that's genius. That is so, so good. That could only have been enabled by that cell shaded art style with very simple bold colors.

Yeah. So yes, Dave, I am 100% with you. the fact that they redid the lighting system for Wind Waker HD is enough of a reason to write it off, I think. Wow. The reason that I have more mixed feelings on it is, number one, if it weren't for the lighting system, we wouldn't have gotten that game at all.

Like, the whole reason that the remake exists is because they were testing out Breath of the Wilde's lighting system. They happened to try it with Wind Waker, and they thought, oh, okay, that looks. looks good. Let's try that again. Let's use that here. Right. So that's reason number one why I can't be sore about it. And the second reason is that literally every single other change, I think, is such a judicious change. I think it is such, I think every other change that was made is like

just an improvement over the base game. Real quick that even though obviously it's against the law and you go to prison if you do it, there is actually a must. for the GameCube version that adds the Swift sale, makes a few of the other changes. I might believe that. But obviously retains the original graphic. I think it's called Better Wind Waker or something. And it made me think maybe if I do play the GameCube version,

which I really do want to do, I guess that might be the way to do it. Maybe, but you know the trouble that can cause, is what if the nerds made the wrong decisions and you don't know? What if you get one of those retranslations and they make links say fuck or something like they always like didn't know?

Well, but isn't this exactly what you went through? with Okina of time. Like you've gone, oh, the nerds say to play this moddy version, and it just isn't it? I guess it's different now because I have actually played the game

in HD, admittedly. Now I know what to do. I think that's going to be less of a problem. But, I mean, it's the first time since Awakening that I've played a Zelda game and thought to myself, hey, I really like that.

That's probably troubling my top 50. You know, I really had a good time with that. And I would like to play it again. I like the cast. I like how the different islands you visit all populated by different sort of types of people or creatures, you know. I liked the relative subtlety of, okay, maybe there is one and I didn't spot it, but I think I found a Goron thing, but not an actual Goron.

Like something that made me think, hey, it's a Goron, but then they didn't show up. There was some subtlety there. I appreciated that. I think that there's a sense of place in this game that means when you go back home to outset island or outset When you return to Outset Island and you visit your gram gram

And she gives you some soup It really does feel like homecoming It's like oh it's this place It's my little island where you know everything is You know what to do And I love some of the little silly things Like I stumbled across by accident Like I found this big fat pig

That I could pick up Because I had the power bracelet Whatever it is you get That lets you pick up heavy rocks And I let this big fat pig out And he went digging like a truffle pig and dug up a piece of heart. And I just stumbled,

I just stumbled across that because I was arcing around with this pig trying to get it to follow me around for a laugh. And it turns out, no, this is a secret. You've found a secret by arcing around. And that's peak Nintendo for me, okay? I love it when they reward you for arcing around. I wish that my real life would reward me for arcing around

instead of severely punishing me, you know? It's just, so it feels nice to exist in the world. And I don't think the HD version, and I appreciate your opinion, because I agree with you about the graphics. I really do. I think that when you, I'm trying to think of a good comparison for it, but I think honestly the digital, like, let's look. Okay, I know it's persona non grata, but the Sandman digital coloring, the killing joke digital coloring, right? Yeah. That's taking away an enormous amount of atmosphere and enormous amount of the feel of those comics.

Yes. Because they're like, no, this looks better. air quotes because it's new. No, absolutely not. Like colourising an old movie, you know, it's pointless, it's stupid. So I get that. But of course, because this is the first one that I played,

to me, this is now the game. Well, and the thing is, it does actually look good. Yes, it does. It's not like they haven't ruined it and made it look bad, but they've changed perfection and made it look fine. So, yeah, you probably had a perfectly good time playing it. Yeah. I did.

I had lovely time playing it. really glad that I did. But do have a go. Do have a look at the GameCube version. I will. Of course. If we do a Twilight episode, if we do any more Zelda episodes, which I'm sure we will, if that's okay with you.

Maybe there could be sort of introduced an update on whether or not I've played the GameCube version, and I can follow up on it. But, you know, I used to have the GameCube version. I have played it before, but only a bit. And now that I know what to do, I feel like it would be breezy. I mean, now I know what to do in Ocarina and I have absolutely no urge to re-viset it whatsoever. maybe a long way in the future

I might play the original N64 version instead of the upgrade version and see how I feel. No, if you ever return to it, play the 3DS version, because that's actually probably more interesting. Yeah, but then I have to play it on a 3DS, and I don't want to. Well, you've got to.

Well, fine then, Jesus, Christ. You drive a hard bargain, Palmer. It just helps you enjoy it a bit more as old because you're like, oh, pretty. Yeah, I suppose that's true. I just, I want to sort of wrap it up a bit because I don't want to ramble too much

because I feel like this has been a nice sort of breezy overview of how we generally feel about the game but I just want to say how lovely it was to for the first time pretty much play a 3D Zelda and go oh I see the fuck what the fuss is about I see the sense of adventure I like it

there's charm here there's real craft here to quote Ken no one's going to get that sorry but it's a game that's a game that's in my heart now I think about this game a lot I think about the sailing around and the music and just the general sense of

melancholy, this joy in melancholy and, you know, the theme of literally yearning for oblivion is something that really speaks to me, which is a dark thing to say, but it does because I think about that sort of thing a lot.

And this idea of... Well, they re-made it recently. Hmm? They remade it recently. Oh, I see. Sorry, that took me a while. Yes. Oh, God.

I'm sorry. I feel like a dick now, because I just went completely over my head. Yeah, that's a game I spent, that's a game I spend 50 pounds on unplayed for two hours, and then I'll install fucking hell. Is Wind Waker the last time in a Zelda game that it really felt nice to cut the grass?

I mean, cutting the grass in Twilight Princess feels like shit, so maybe. Yeah, I think it might be the last time, guys. And it used to be such a big part of the old Link's Awakening experience. Could I nominate possibly link between worlds? I think that had some decent grass action. Of course you can. Yeah, I forgot entirely about that.

Oh, might have to revisit that. You know how everyone forgets the link between worlds exists, and it's one of the best ones. It was so good. No, absolutely. This is the thing is I keep harping on this point. Because people are like, oh, no, they needed to do Breath of the Wild because the Zelda formula was getting completely stale,

and there was no other way they could have done it. And I'm like, but no, that's not the game that kind of refreshed the formula. That happened in 2013 with a link between worlds. I think I've said it before on this podcast, but the moment when you first become a painting in that game and the implications of what you can now do, I actually got a bit emotional. It's like, oh my God, these people are geniuses. They are geniuses.

They are so good at their jobs. Yeah. It's the kind of thing. You know, when someone implements something that you would never have thought of, and yet it's the best fucking simplest idea. That's what Nintendo are very, very good at, I think. And it's interesting, looking back at sort of Winwaker with that perspective is really, it doesn't really innovate, does it?

Like, I mean, the stuff out on the ocean is very interesting, but it's still quite regimented in the sense of like, go here, give bait, find out what's going on, solve the puzzle. But there's a lot that it does that I think is, and I'd forgotten a lot of it until I kind of went and looked at it again for this. that's like, oh, that's Breath of the Wild, oh, that's Breath of the Wild. Like having the, what do you call it? You know, the thing, what do you call it?

The thing you glide with. No, the gliding thing. The big leaf, yeah. Yeah, and then they built an entire game around that later, but you add that in this. The Korux, those guys. The Ruto, the, what they call it, the bird guys. The way the little mublin guys look is kind of directly the same as the... It actually is quite similar now that you mentioned.

It has a lot in common. I really think Breath of the Wild is essentially the next Zelda game after this on my personal track. Like, I didn't really enjoy... Like, Twilight Princess, I enjoyed it at the time, but I've never felt the need to revisit it. I didn't enjoy Skyward Sword. But it's not just that I loved Breath of the Wild and I loved Wind Waker. It's that they kind of speak to each other in various ways. You're right. They do.

I do see the extrapolation there. And this one does end saying like, and next something complete... Now, I don't know, because I do not consult. anymore if Breath of the Wild is linked to this on the official timeline or not. But to me it is. So spiritually it is. So far as I understand it, Breath of the Wild

was apparently like, functionally it is just a complete reboot. Breath of the Wild. It is just like a whole new timeline, a whole new story. Which I really like. But apparently the official explanation is that it takes place so far in the future. Right.

that nobody knows which timeline it's on. Like, all of them have converged again. Oh, thank goodness. So they've kind of gone like, actually forget all that. Let's just make games. Exactly. It is functionally, like, just a complete reboot. You know, it's interesting this timeline stuff

because I play one of my favorite games on the Switch is Ohio Warriors' Age of Calamity, a very, very badly running sequel to Highway Warriors that is initially set in the Breath of the Wild sort of world. And a lot of people got very upset, because it's apparently marketed as being like find out what happened, like find out the calamity that destroyed everything. And then they pull a swerve where the champions from, I think, from the future or something,

from another timeline come through a portal and you actually save the world. You actually prevent the calamity in the end. And people were very upset about that. And I just found myself thinking like, well, why? You know what happened? Because you can't add it to the. wiki because it disagrees. This is why I don't like the timeline. It's too, it isn't, it isn't art, it's spreadsheets. It's interesting when you've got something that people care so much about.

Yeah. That the Nintendo couldn't give a fuck, you know. And I mean that in a good way. They're just like, okay, yeah, this is a bit muddy, but like, it doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter. To me, it doesn't matter. It doesn't affect the game. And I think when, Waker having that theme of finality of this is over, the legend is over, you're just people now, Tetra and Link, that's who you are. You are not the hero of time and the princess. You are Tetra and Link, and you're going off to have a life,

even though it may not be perfect, because that's what life is like. Okay. I resonates with me to an enormous degree. Yeah, it's kind of like the Last Jedi if it was actually good. well I mean I'm waning you up I'm waning up I'm winning you up

you have wham me up quite a lot I'm going to have to do the shoulder brush now in real life there I've done it actually I rewatch that quite recently I couldn't finish it and I used to love that shit and now I'm just having a hard time with it

anyway yeah it's exactly like the last two that's right mate but no I think thematically and story-wise I couldn't really fault it at all. And I will re-watch that finale on YouTube many times. I know I will.

I will revisit it. I think that that final boss fight with Gannendorf is, yes, it's piss easy, but it's not about that. It's about desperation and the spectacle, and it perfectly winds things up, I think. The fact that you defeat the puppets and then climb their strings, I mean, come on. How good is that, right?

Like, I mean, that's what you're telling you. You are trying to force us into this role. I'm cutting these strings. Fuck you. I love that. But like, I also love what it says about Gannon, because before it was almost like Gannon

was the shell and Gannon was the real creature inside. But in this case, it's like he's like he's playing a role. He's putting on this like macab puppet show, this theater, this like pretense, oh, I have to do this because this is what Gannon does. Yeah. And, you know, it's all for not. It's all for nothing. Like his heart's not in it anymore. It's horrible.

You could argue that it's quite meta in the sense of maybe being like, no, this is what Zelda has to be. This is what has to happen. Yes. Well, I think that was the point. Was like the whole point of the game is this is what Zelda has to be. and we're breaking away from that. And that's why I'm so disappointed that as the series went on,

it just returned to that well so often. Swerved straight back and became immediately less interesting. That's happened with so many different things, hasn't it? Yeah. Because, you know what? It's like history does repeat itself because Breath of the Wild kind of did the same thing. It was Calamity Gannon,

was Gannon having done this so many times that he's now completely lost all sense of self. He's just this raging beast. You know, he has no, like, personality anymore. It's just, he doesn't even remember why he's doing this. It's just pure malice. And so I thought, oh, that's an interesting take on that. Again, it seems to be kind of repeating what Windwaker did.

But, okay, yeah, I'm with you. And then Tears of the Kingdom comes out. And yeah, no, it's just Gannendorf again. Just a bloke. Yeah. It's just a bloke. It's a shame. It is a shame.

I'm going to wrap it up now with that. That's okay, and this is anything else we want to say about this game. I loved it, as I've said. I'm delighted that I played it, and it's very unfortunate that I'm now playing Twilight Princess, which while I'm enjoying it, feels like the opposite of everything I liked about Wind Winkers so far. I will say that some good stuff is yet to come later in the game,

but it's not as good as this one. Well, can I, the spoiler's sake, do you mind if I just say one? thing about Twilight Princess that I think is by comparison to like the Wind Waker Reveal of Hyrule. I, very early in the game, you face off against this

mysterious skeleton man who has your weapons, your fighting stance and specifically says only the hero can hold this stuff. And I was streaming it. And I said to my friend, is that like me from the future or from another timeline

or something, immediately said that. And it turns out, yeah, that's pretty much what it is, right? The hero shade or something. Yes. And it's like, they didn't put any effort into disguising that. Is that meant to be a reveal later? Or you meant to immediately just get that? It seems like it's such a big thing to just throw away.

I don't know about, it's not a reveal. I think you're supposed to get it. I don't know when you're supposed to get it, whether it's then or whether it's supposed to be later. I can't remember. I just thought that was a curious thing, really. Because they really don't make any effort. It seems like the sort of thing that might be a fun and cool reveal,

but it's not. They just tell you straight up. Well, it might be. It's kind of, I mean, it's a bit like, yeah, it is a week ago at the thing that they did with the Black and White Castle dungeon in Wind Waker, where it's like, what if previous Zelda games happened, eh? What if that?

What if they left remnants? And it's just they'd already done it. better. It's true. I'm looking forward to finishing Twilight Princess so I can talk about it and then I can move on to Skyward's Sword and all the other. I want to do like Zelda 1, 2, I want to do Link to the Past. I've never finished that game. I want to do the whole series and I want to have a good time with it and I'm sure I will and I'm glad that I can make these podcasts and talk to you about it because I think it's a lot of fun.

And I hope that the Retronauts listeners have enjoyed this Wind Waker wank. How about that? I thought we said we were going to tone that down this episode. Yeah, well, yeah, that's true. I guess that was pretty over the line. Sorry, everyone. Please don't tune out. Thanks very much for listening. And, Jamie, where can our wonderful listeners find your exciting output of material? Just type in like shugles. I'm on shugles.orgles.combe.combe.com social or typing shugles into YouTube and you'll find me. It's like Google

both in an essay at the start. That's what I was going to ask, yeah. Yeah, you will. You'll find some very excellent Zelda videos in fact. And Dave, where can our listeners find you? Do you, for example, post any podcasts? I do, yeah. Sonic the Comic, the podcast.

I'm sure. If they haven't listened to it by now, then they're just like punishing themselves over and over again every time you don't. It's ludicrous, isn't it? It's absurd that they haven't. Because it's exactly the sort of thing anyone listening to our episodes of Retronauts will be into. Try it. Sonic the comic the podcast. We find it at STCTP.Zone.

And it's about an old Sonic comic that we had in the UK, except it's also about life in the 90s and being a kid and when there was still joy. And all of that sort of thing. But also I do Serious Disney, which you can look for. That's about talking about Disney things and stuff. Very fucking good podcast, that one. Mostly the increasingly bad remakes that they were working on.

Are you doing or have done Snaight White? I don't, I genuinely don't know because it's gone down so badly that clearly we would only have the same opinion anyone did. But we'll see, I'm sure we'll get six hours out of it like we do with everything else. But yeah, I'm called Demon Tomato Dave on things like YouTube and Blue Sky. So you find me there. Demon Tomato Dave. Dot B-sky.comcial or whatever it is. And that's it.

That's me there. That's where Dave is. And Shamey. And if you like Retronauts, thank you for. for a start, but if you want to support retronauts and access all sorts of exciting bonus features, you can, for a mere $5 a month, which again, pathetic amount of money, quite frankly, anyone should be able to afford that. And if they can't, I apologize, that was insensitive.

But for $5 a month, you will get not only every single episode one whole week early, making you the king of the playground, you will access two entire full-length bonus episodes per month, which are only available on our Patreon, and they're very good episodes as well. They're not just rubbish. They're not just me talking about, like, Error the Acrobat or something, though I probably will do that eventually.

Because I consider Error the Acrobat to be Dave Siller's masterpiece. But you also access Diamond Fights tremendous this week in Retronaut. Sorry, this week in Retro Columns. Not this week in Retronauts. We've got this month in Retronauts, which is our monthly community podcast, which stars Diamond Fight and often features me making goblin noises in the background to annoy them.

But that's very good too. So that's an enormous amount of stuff that you get. And it's all wonderful. And I'm only in a bit of it. So if you don't like me, I'm not going to be there all the time, you know? You can just like tune me out for all I care. I'm not bothered.

It doesn't matter. But seriously, please don't do that because, you know, I'm desperate man. Thanks very much for listening to this Wind Waker Ramble. And we'll probably be back with a Twilight Princess Rumble that will be two solid condensed towers of swearing. So what do you reckon?

forward to that? Yeah. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. No, I'm super am, especially because there's some better stuff later on in the game and I'm interested to hear about it. You know, I've been calling it toilet princess

because I don't like it very much. I was trying to think of a better one and then twice shite princess, but I think toilet princess is funnier. And then also I realize there probably is like an anime called toilet princess and it would get confused the algorithm. I don't really want that. Probably. I don't want anything to do with that.

Or someone on Only fans called that. Yeah, most likely. Not that I would know. Anyway, take care everyone, and we'll speak again soon. I love you. Bye. Bye. Bye.