Retronauts - Retronauts Episode 166: Chasm - Making a Modern Metroidvania

Episode Date: August 27, 2018

Jeremy talks to Chasm's James Petruzzi about creating the best IGA-vania style exploratory platformer in a decade, along with the challenges of meeting modern player expectations with a game built so clearly in the classic spirit of Symphony of the Night.

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for 30 days. Everyone, it's me, Jeremy Parrish, and here I am recording another Retronauts episode. And this is another special episode with a game developer. This time it's not someone who created a game a long time ago, but someone who created a game just recently. Go ahead and introduce yourself. My name is James Petruzzi, and I'm the director and designer of Kazim. that just released on PS4 in Steam. And like I said, putting the Vanya back in Metroidvania,

this is, of all the Metroidvania-style games I've played, I feel like this is the one that really best captures the feel of Symphony of the Night, which is surprisingly not that common. Like, you know, there's a lot of Metroidvania-type games these days, but they tend to go more for the Metroid, or, you know, some sort of oblique... Yeah, just...

Metroidvania-ish thing in its own direction. Like, you know, you look at stuff like Yoku's Island Express or Hollow Night or Dead Cells, and they're kind of doing their own thing. So you've got kind of the structural element there but not so much the actual feel. Whereas Casm, like,

I play this and I think, this is a man who really liked Symphony the Night and I approve of that because the feel of it is really good. And there has been no video game character who has controlled quite like Alicard in that game. But our nameless protagonist, in chasm comes really close like impressively close cool thank you yeah i studied it uh obsessively

you know um a lot of it comes down to uh timings and things like that and you know when you start talking about game feel you get into uh reaction times and how many MS this is and that and um how things should react and like in time spans that you can't even really notice you know so um i had to get creative just to try to um capture that feel so i ended up capturing a lot of recorded footage and studying it frame by frame and like kind of seeing like all the little tricks that they were doing that you don't really get when you're playing it at 60 frames a second. So, but yeah, as you said, like my whole thing with this game

was trying to bring back the feel of Castlevania games and something that felt just like them. And I wanted to make sure it wasn't some game that, you know, like those kind of, I don't want to call them knockoff games, but like, you know, it's kind of like, oh, this looks like an NES game, but they didn't really get it. They use all these different colors that don't really confine to the NES palette. It doesn't, it's like it kind of looks like it, but it doesn't really capture the true

essence of it. So, you know, I definitely spend a lot of time trying to find that balance for the gameplay mechanics and all that. Yeah, I don't think you have to be slavish in sticking to NES or Super NES or Genesis limitations, but it helps. I mean, that's one of those things that it's kind of subtle, and I don't think a lot people really know it or notice it when they're playing but when you play a game something like not to point any fingers at anyone but like cladden i don't know if you played that classic dungeon

which is published by nis um like it goes for that kind of eight bit style but at the same time it's it's not convincing because it has different resolutions for things like yeah your heroes are chunky pixels and then there's backgrounds that are like super detailed. It's inconsistencies that... Yeah, even Double Dragon 4 was guilty of that. Like, the graphics in that just aren't consistent. It's funny because, like, you see the sprite characters and be like, oh, it's like

classic Double Dragon and then you see the backgrounds. And it kind of breaks that illusion a little bit. And that's how I felt with the mechanics, like, coming at Kazim. And, you know, and we were very careful with the art side, too, you know, since we're talking about the art, like, in particular. Like, there's a lot of things that make an NES game feel like an NES game or Genesis game feel like a Genesis game like when you look at them and a lot of that comes down to like we're saying

the color palettes and the restrictions and it's like if you don't really understand fully like all the restrictions that they're working with you end up with something that kind of looks like it but not you know and we made a lot of deliberate decisions early on probably the first one that kind of like locked us into this

mode was we're going low resolution so everything in the game world that gets rendered is actually rendering to a 384 by 216 buffer which is tiny and then um that keeps all of your pixel sizes the same so what's what's that the native resolution of what the hell has a 384 by 216 resolution nothing i think i saw a couple capcom games actually ran on that like c rt okay yeah there was a couple out there it's not very common

um there's their uh vertical height was a little bit taller though it was more like 240 instead of 216 yeah yeah the reason i chose that resolution though is because it perfectly 5x scales up to 1080p or you can 10x scale up to 4k uh because 4k is like 3840 by 2160 so it's basically that just divided by 10 so you're future proofing you're yeah well I didn't even realize that at the time phone enough but you know it just it worked out so but yeah so that was like one of the very first decisions we made as far as the art direction was do a real low resolution keep all the pixel sizes consistent um now since we're working with modern hardware we could use whatever colors we want and that came down to the artist to stay consistent so

like our animator, he'd kind of come up with like a general palette for the enemies for each character, or general palette for the enemies for each area, there we go, and kind of stick with that. Like, so a lot of the enemies will be different colors, but they kind of reuse some of the same shades. And then obviously the background art for each area, um, they also stayed consistent with since they're all in one sheet. It was easy for them to kind of reuse the same colors. So, um, you know, there you go with your like correct pixel sizes. We're not mixing at all. And then like we've got the colors. So I think, like, visually, we were able to hit that kind of super Nintendo-ish Genesis feel.

I don't think it really feels like either of them in particular. It kind of feels like a weird in-between almost because our color palette is wider than the systems could do, but we purposely limited ourselves within that, you know, so they could choose any color in the RGB spectrum. Right, but it's how many of those. But you're only showing, like, 64 at a time on the screen or something. Yeah, exactly. And we didn't get that crazy with it.

It's not like we were counting colors. It's just like when you design characters. you want to keep the color counts down and when you're working in the environment art you want to keep the color counts down and then when you kind of combine it all together it gives you that feel so I would say we were successful in that side

and I think that's one of the things that helped the game get legs a lot especially at like game shows and stuff because we'd be showing it and people would see the art from across the room and it would just like stick out to them you know they'd be like whoa that reminds me of this this and this you know like as soon as they saw it

they were kind of sold on the concept of the game which is kind of crazy to me because it's like as a game designer and all that you never want to fall back on like selling something so simply like oh it looks good like that's good enough

but you know obviously we put a lot of work into everything else to feel like a retro game which we can talk about but it's definitely the art that initially grabs people and then you have to sell them with the gameplay and everything else you know like once they pick up the controller

so, like I said, so, like I said, clearly, you look to symphony of the night for inspiration on, on the controls and the overall vibe. But why specifically that game? I mean, like I said, most Metroid-Vanias kind of go for either the Metroid thing, like Axiom Verge, really nails it. Yeah. Or you have something like Guacamale where it's just like, I've never played a game quite like this, but it's weird.

You know, it still kind of follows Metroid's rules. Yeah. So I guess for me, personally, it's more of a passion project because I'm a huge fan of not just simply the night, but really all the Castlevania games going all the way back to the original NES one. Yeah, I saw your video game shrine in your game room. Castlevania and Simon's Quest. I've got your Castlevania book, by the way, and I'm going to have you sign it before you leave here.

I'm getting an autograph on that thing. But yeah, so I've studied all of that stuff. Huge Castlevania fan all the way since I was a kid. You know, the funny thing real quick is, like, I never played Castlevania One as a kid. I remember for some reason. I don't remember if it was like my birthday or something. My mom took me to Hills, which is probably going now. and I got to pick out one game, and it was Castlevania 2.

Now all these years later... That's a rough start, really. Yeah, all these years later now, I'm like, man, I should have picked one. Like, you know, knowing what I know now. But I picked two, and I loved it. Like, I didn't get it, like, at all. Like, I never beat the game. I probably never made it further than I would make if I sat down and played it for an hour now.

But it really... I don't know, man. This is the thing with, like, retro games. It's just like Zelda won for me. That was, like, my favorite game as a kid, where... The world is not kind to you. Like, it's like ambivalent. It's like Zelda World exists whether you know where to go or not or know what to do.

And I feel like Castlevania 2 is the same in a while. I mean, that game definitely... No, actually, Castlevania 2 isn't is an ambivalent towards you. It actually dislikes you. Yeah. It actively wants to. Well, and that's a lot in the translation, too, which makes sense. I thought so, too, but I remember interviewing Igarashi one time.

Oh, man, it's probably been like 12 or 13 years. Yeah. And, you know, he kind of revisited Castlevania 3 for Dawn of Sorrow. Yeah. And I said, you know, so, you know, you've kind of revisited these older games. Have you ever thought about going back to do something in the style of Castlevania, too? And he was like, I didn't really like that game. Everyone lied to you.

And so that was when I realized, oh, so it wasn't just the translation. It was actually accurate, and those people really tried to mislead you. So that's a rough start. I mean, that was, you know, a game deliberately screwing you. and telling you things that were useless or counterproductive. I just think there's something to the feel of those kind of games. I mean, whether it's at deliberate or not, where it's like, I don't know, you just have to, like, kind of figure things out for yourself,

and it's like a conundrum and a conundrum, you know, and it's kind of weird, too, when you think about it, because both that and Zelda are so pure action games, you know? It's like the basic mechanics are just move around and hit things. So, like, and both are melee for the most part. You know, in Zelda, you get long range once you're powered up. But they're both very, like, kind of hardcore combat and stuff. But at the same time, it's just, like, figure out where to go.

Like, hopefully you find something. Go buy Nintendo Power. That was probably part of it, maybe. I don't know. You know, so I remember, though, as a kid, like, Zelda was my jam. Like, that was the game that made me fall in love with games. Like, I liked Kung Fu and I liked Mario. I love those games.

Even Contra. I loved Contra. But Zelda was the game where I took the manual with me to elementary school every day, like just kept reading it, trying to pour over it. I'd come home. I got the Nintendo Power issue, you know, where they had the big map in there. Like, just trying to figure out everything I could about that game. It's so different. I don't know.

I guess people today probably wouldn't, like, understand it. Because today, like, when you play a game, maybe Dark Souls, you know, those kind of games are probably the closest you could get, I think, to that feeling where it feels like there's this like entire world out there and it's not explained to you at all like it's just like it's up to you to like try to get it or not and you really don't even need to I guess in a certain level um but yeah there's just something to it where it felt like I had to learn everything I possibly could about it to even have a chance you know to play the game and it was something bigger than just that combat uh feedback loop

that you know I was just mentioning so there's there's more to it where um and I think like when you're a kid too it's perfect because your imagination is like boundless, you know, and you're just like, anything could be around the next corner. You, like, you never know, you know. So, yeah, those are the kind of things that, like, stuck with me about those experiences that I tried to bring back to Kazm. I don't know how successful I was, but, you know, I tried to, like, get that feel of the world and the atmosphere and, you know, the tight game play controls and kind of

mash it all together again and see if I could make something like that. Yeah, like, for me, Zelda was definitely, the original Zelda was definitely a game that got its hooks into me and I spent a few weeks one summer really just like working it inside out and out and then beat it and then was like I'm going to do the second quest and beat that in just a few days actually because once I got it I got it but before that there was Metroid and that was the one that really kind of you know made me say like what's out there you know yeah spent hours and hours trying to get into the secret worlds that I read about in the Nintendo power not realizing it was just a bug yeah and that I was you know wasting my time trying to find something that

wasn't actually there, like the developers never put there. But it didn't matter because it was so entrancing. I know there's better endings I can get. I know I can get my time down. I know I can do the new game plus thing. So yeah, that was really, that was really engrossing. But the Castlevania games always had a special place for me too, the original Castlevania. I know I've told this story on the podcast, but like I traveled, my family traveled across the country one summer on vacation. And that was like the year that I had to get Castlevania, but it was out of print. So, you know, when I finally got my hands on it, it was like, I finally got it. Yeah, it was like, I guess a lot of people don't remember.

I guess a lot of people today don't even know. But like back then, there was like shortages of memory chips. And like, you couldn't get games. Like today, like, we're completely spoiled. If you want a game, you just go right on PSN or Steam or whatever and download it. There's no, no, oh, we have a wave of cartridges coming maybe in a few months for this one game. Yeah, I mean, I guess the closest thing now is when a game gets delisted. Yeah.

Then it's gone forever. Yeah, it's gone forever. You're not going to buy Scott Pilgrim versus the world ever again. Yeah. Whereas, you know, Castlevania, there was a chance you'd be able to rent it, or maybe someone would have a copy that they'd lend you, or they would come back into print. I remember Super Mario, too, was the other big one.

Like, you couldn't even get a hold of. Yeah. That one I saw when it very first came out and thought, I don't know, I got kind of bored of the original Super Mario Brothers. I'm playing it so much. I don't know if I want this. And then the next day I decided, yeah, I do. And it was gone.

And it took like four months for me to find it again. That's another game that, like, I really liked, especially in Super Mario 2, it kind of reminded me of that same vibe we were talking about from Zelda and Castlevania where it's like, like, the first one, like it didn't feel like you're really exploring at all. You know, it's like you'd go down the tube and then you're just in a little chamber. You get some coins and then you're back to the main world. Like two, to me, felt like a little different. It had all these doors that would like go places and there's like this like inside or the dark world, whatever you want to call it. I don't know. I can't remember what the official name is.

Subspace. Yeah, subspace. So there was, like, all these interesting things where it would, like, make you think, like, is there more to this? Is there other things here, you know? Like, um, they did a great job with that game. I mean, obviously, we know now that it wasn't a real Super Mario game all these years later. It was. It was. It was made by the people who made Mario with Mario style mechanics and then turned into a Mario game.

So, yeah, to me, that's real. It's real enough. Yeah, it's just a very, uh, interesting experience. I mean, like, I love all those early games because they're just so. experimental, I guess. It's like, let's just throw this spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks, you know? Right. Yeah, and it's hard to find that sense of, I don't know what's out there in games anymore,

because, you know, everything's been worked out. The rules have been laid down. And, you know, in most cases, games are like a little hand appears on screen and says, go this way, or there's a flashing arrow, or, you know, someone draws something on the map for you. That was another thing that, like, with Kazim, I was like, I wanted it to feel like there's obvious

obvious clues in Metroadvenius you know it's like when you see a ledge that's like twice as tall as your character you're like oh I come back here with the flip like there are the double jump you know like there's like no there's no thinking to it it's just like you see an obstacle same thing with the in Kazim we have like the slide

power up that gets you kind of into the crawl spaces and yeah your game definitely uses a lot of the kind of standard vocabulary for sure yeah and then like when you get a little bit further into it though like I started kind of and I don't know how far you've gotten through it but like once you get to a certain point

I stopped using that so much like there's a lantern power up you know that like kind of gets you into dark spaces and I don't want to spoil the ending but I took some inspiration from Symphony of the Night actually for one of the key items where it's

not a power up like that gets you to that next spot you know and you kind of have to put it together like there's like a whole puzzle with it but I tried to at least make it obvious like the points, at least I thought, I don't know. Some people are like, well, I was running around forever and I couldn't find where to go. But I at least tried to make it sort of obvious, like make the rooms interesting looking or, you know, like, we actually added the ability to the map. So if you're in a room, you can like press X to like mark the spot on your map.

So even if it's not like that super obvious double jump point and you go into a room, you're like, oh, this is like a weird gate. Like you can mark it on your map. It's come back to later and hopefully figure it out. But I don't know. That's like one of the frustrating points I think of that can be frustrating in Metroid Vianians. I mean, like, I remember I never played Super Metroid as a kid. I know. Crucify me.

My friend rented it. And one summer when we were probably like 13 or something. And oh my God, he should have just bought the game. He like rented it for weeks. He was like trying to beat it. I know he spent over $50 or his mom did, like renting this game over and over for him. And he could just bought it. But I so I kind of just watched him play.

it most of the time and of course he was one of those guys that like would never give you the controller ever right so you're just like basically hanging out with them watching them play but so I never played it as a kid and maybe that's actually what kind of turned me off from playing it was watching some play and not being able to play but so years later I came back to it and I remember getting so frustrated when I got to the point where you have to power bomb the glass tube because there's like okay there's another glass tube in the game you can see that's broken but you know it's kind of like one of those things where it's like you you're exploring the world and then you get to

your dead end and then it's kind of like you're just like looping around the world trying to find what to do next you know like there's no there's no marking in the map or anything like that like it was just kind of like oh you got to see this hint that this one room's like this and then see the other and realize it's different but there was like no power up to really like really lead you there like visually show you I mean I guess it did visually show you with the tube busted but I don't I don't think it like connected for me like a double jump would, you know, where it's like, oh, I can, I can traverse that now. Well, that's, uh, that's actually an Easter egg in that game. Like, you don't have to go

that way. There's another route. Oh, is there? Yeah, there's another route into the, okay. Well, see, that shows you how much I know about it. But that's like a shortcut. Yeah. Okay. So I ran around forever trying to figure out where to go and like, I don't even know. I think I eventually had to look at it. I think the attract mode will show you that. Does it? But I'm mistaken. But you have to, like, leave the system running and let it loop through the attract. Everybody's, like, turning out his podcast. And I'm like, this guy has no clue we was talking about. But yeah, I don't know. I'm human. You know, I've only played as many games as I can. Yeah, but that's what's interesting about games like this is that, you know, even

if it clicks for you, there's still, sometimes they throw in things that, you know, they surprise you and they're not what you expect and you have to kind of think laterally. Like you get into sort of a comfortable groove and then all of a sudden you run up against a wall and you're like, I don't know what to do next. And so then that becomes kind of the challenge. And I guess that's where people either give up or. They become determined to say, like, that's where it comes down to the person. It's like you can design that stuff as well as you want, but

well, a perfect example, actually, we could talk about that. I know you've played was the puzzle and the catacombs that you need to use to get through the gate to the boss. So I know in the version you played, the clues were all in different rooms. And we had a lot of people complaining at lunch, like,

I don't think it was so much that the puzzle was complex, but it was the fact that, like, you didn't get the puzzle until you got the journal entry and saw all the clues and then you had to run back and forth to all those rooms again and then try to figure out the clues. So it created like a lot more frustration that I intended like when I designed it.

So that actually got nerfed a little bit. So if you play in the latest build, all those... So for the people listening, the idea to the puzzle is that there's essentially a gate that has three numbers you have to put in and then there's three rooms in the world that each have a clue and put that. And these people were just hitting a wall with it.

Like, I didn't expect that, but they were. And getting frustrated with all the backtracking. So what we ended up doing was combining all three of those paintings into one long hallway. So all the clues are now kind of in one stretch. Okay. Yeah, yeah. That's, I did that this morning. And I noticed that there is kind of like, it's not so much a stretch, but it's basically like a, just like a self-contained space in the map where all those rooms are.

because there were, I got two of them and then realized I didn't remember the third one. So I had to go back. But it was pretty easy because I was like, well, I know it's going to be in here somewhere. Yeah. So I feel like, yeah, kind of containing those into a small space makes sense. So that's something that Super Metroid did a lot too. Yeah. There were a few points where I, you know, the first time I played, I hit a wall.

And I was like, oh, I need to backtrack. And I realized, oh, I can't backtrack. The game actually kind of corrals you into certain places. Right. And it gives you sort of a boundary on where you can, go and you have to figure out the puzzle within that space, which can be frustrating if you can't figure it out. But, you know, if there's nothing else to do at that point in the game, the last thing you want to do is go search the entire damn map. Because I've done that in so many games

where I'm like looking all over, like going into every room in, say, Metal Gear and trying, you know, every calm frequency to get a clue. And then the answer was right by where the puzzle was in the first place. And you just missed it. Right. And you go wandering forever. Yeah. So having, having those kind of corralled into a certain space. I think that's a good, good design change. Yeah, well, and I think like, you know, my whole thing with that puzzle was when you pull the lever the first time and it drops you down into that pit, I just assume that people would figure that, like, the answers were down there, but not everybody thought

that. So it's like they'd run around that area real quick, maybe miss them, and then they'd be gone all over, you know, like way outside. So it's just hard to anticipate what's going to land with people and what's not. and I think that's probably where the focus testing comes in and I know there's probably a lot of eye rolls, you know, immediately. Like we started talking focus testing as far as like, ah, you're ruining your vision and all that.

But, you know, at some point, it's like, kind of want it to be playable and you don't want people to get frustrated and just give up, especially for something like that that I think's like earlier into the experience and you're kind of just going too far left field. You know, it's like you kind of want to introduce these like concepts a little bit slower. So, you know, I think that was a good tweak, though, that we made for that, where

at least since all the clues are in one spot, if you don't get it, you can just go back to that one spot and figure it out and then go right back to the lock. You're not running all over the entire section. So, honestly, that was probably one of the most out there puzzles in the game, I think, like as far as – there's another that's similar later in the castle area, but I think by that point you kind of get how the game flows it's like okay sometimes you might have to figure out how to proceed in just this small area sometimes you might need to leave the area entirely and go look where else you can use your last power up you know so um i think it's tricky because it's

like you want variation to the game you know um so you got to just try different things and and see what works but yeah so yeah i mean i'm i'm someone who enjoys going back and finding the things i couldn't get before so every time i get one of the power ups i'm like well i can climb walls now a little bit, you know, like grip walls. Yep. So I remember a few spots where I just couldn't quite make the jump, but I know I can get those now. Or now I can slide, you know, under narrow spaces. So I remember where there was some spots on the map where I couldn't do that before.

And every time I'm rewarded, you know, for going back, there's either a cool piece of armor or something that's going to be essential for navigating the world later. So I feel like it does a good job of sort of giving you incentive to go back and make use of these power-ups and you know some of the things are kind of superfluous but they're pleasant surprises like the first time i put on the bird hat i was like oh i get a little bit of a constitution bonus over what i've got that's nice and then all of a sudden i've got a friend and now my friend is like attacking my hat is attacking bad guys as with as much power as i have i'm like well okay yeah i know you know it's funny too with the bird hat like i don't know maybe

this is just me trying to combat that whole like oh i'm going to go look everything up on game facts thing you know like so i purposely didn't put a lot of the effects of the items directly in the descriptions because i wanted people to experiment and figure out like what things do and it's funny because i saw some people saying like i didn't even try putting that on because i saw the stats were lower like i didn't even bother and i played through the whole game without it yeah i mean that's that's something you learn with RPGs is that sometimes you get something and it's at a point in the game where you're like well why would i use this the stats are so low why it's a downgrade that that means it's got something special to it there's there's some sort of special

feature too i'd see i'd see on steam people would be like oh i saw this item and i didn't even bother using it because the power was three lower than the hammer i already had but you know maybe that hammer had something special about it if you kill things with you know i don't know like i just kind of felt like um and i know castlvania even uh simply the night they put a lot of the effects of the items in the description yeah but some of them didn't like the jewel sword sucks. Yeah. But every time you attack with it, you get jewels.

And if you do a special attack with it, you get a lot of jewels. Yep. And it's never explained. That's not explicitly indicated in the game. It's one of those things that it's like you spend time with the game to figure it out. It's not just handed to you. And I feel like that's, I feel like that's fair for the stuff that is like out of the ordinary. You know what I mean?

Like none of those things are required whatsoever, even in the slightest degree. It's all just like optional stuff. And if you want to fool around. and kind of just experiment, you know? Because it's like the world's a sandbox. You can try all these different items and weapons and, you know, killing different creatures trying to find, you know, their drops and all that.

But it's up to each player. Like, if you're just a power player and you just go for the highest stats, you don't care about any of that, like, you know, you're going to play it one way. And if you're somebody that likes all the weird stuff and doesn't care about that, you'll probably experiment and try everything.

But I think part of it, too, though, was just like I didn't want the whole game known in like a week you know and i mean like we put it up for the backers the Kickstarter backers to play two weeks before launch and they had already started somebody had already unlocked all the bcary entries

taking screenshots of every single monster in the game this is like a week before launch you know and it's like oh man like everything in the game is like already been figured out it feels like but there it wasn't because i um I like locked out the you can't see the items that the enemies drop

until you get the drops so that's the little things down a little bit. But then these guys would figure out one of the enemies has an item that helps you get other items easier. So somebody found that and then they unlocked all the others. So they, I would say probably within just a few days of launch, people had already figured out every single enemy drop in the

game. But because I didn't make all the descriptions obvious, there are definitely items out there. I've seen that people have not figured out like what they're really for yet, which is awesome. So the bird hat is not an exception to the rule. It's more like there's a lot of stuff in the game that has weird effects like that. I mean, I wouldn't say a ton.

But, you know, I mean, we're talking a good amount of stuff that, like, you know, people have still yet to find. So, you know, I feel like at least then it wasn't, it was for at least a good reason that some of the stuff is a little less obvious, you know? So, I mean, some stuff will tell you straight up. Like, the methyl armor regenerates your health, but it tells you right in the description. Because it's like a really low defense. So I'm like, yeah, whatever. Like, I made some of them obvious like that. It's just like, tells you right in the description, like, oh, it regenerates the wearer's health or whatever.

and it's just that's all that's all there is to it and um but then there's other items that are much less obvious what they do so I don't know it's like I wanted different degrees to it you know like some things don't tell you at all some hint and some tell you like straight out like what they do so um at least I think it feels like because I feel like if we went too far in either direction like if everything was super obvious people would have had everything figured out already and it would just be whatever like there wouldn't be any that fun of discovery I think that's like a lot of what I was trying to preserve. And it's so hard in the internet age to do that because, I mean, if this was 20 years ago, when this game came out,

it would be months before anybody put all this together, you know, into some sort of format that you could read, like, a game fact or something like, or a Nintendo strategy guide or anything like that. Like, you were, like, isolated from all this knowledge, you know? And now, like I said, the full beast area dropped out in screenshots with everything before launch. even it's just like that's the world that we live in now i think world of warcraft broke video gaming for everyone because the wiki approach became sort of you know how you play world of warcraft as soon as a patch hits everyone's like what's in there let's let's let's break it down and suss it out yeah and i think like like we were talking earlier at the very beginning of

our conversation it kind of kills that sense of discovery and wonderment a little bit when everything's kind of already broken down before you even go into the game you know it's like here's every power up in the game here's every enemy here's every item here's every this is how you do all the secret stuff um yeah and you know it's not hard to avoid spoiling yourself but i realize there are some people who just can't help themselves they're like the information's out there i need to know it yep and you know my i have nephews you know they're like elementary age and they will have watched comprehensive playthroughs of games on youtube long before they get to play them my like one of my nephews is every time

he comes over to my house he plays a little more of undertale in my beta yeah but he knows that game inside and out because he's watched so many YouTube play-throughs. So every time he's like, oh, it's this scene. So he's familiar with everything. It's just, he's kind of experiencing it for himself in first person, but there aren't any surprises for him, but he's okay with that. So

I guess it's, you know, different expectations for people. I like being surprised. I haven't read anything about Kazim and I'm, you know, playing it through for the first time blind. So I am discovering things and saying, oh, okay, that's cool. I didn't expect that. It wasn't in the description, and I'm glad I tried this out,

because now I've got a little friend who flies around with me. Yeah, and I think, like, that kind of general idea kind of goes all the way to the core of the game. And this has been our biggest, I'm sure you'll want to talk about this, our biggest contention point is the procedural generation. Yeah. So a lot of the idea of that, Well, so let me step back. When the game was very first conceived,

I was thinking like it would be a straight rogue like. As it kind of went, by the time we got to the Kickstarter, I kind of started seeing like, yeah, if this is our one chance, to make like a big game. I don't want to make it like a small roguelike style game. But I thought we could still use the procedural generation to our advantage, which is getting right back to what we were just talking about, where you can't go to game facts and say,

tell me how to get everywhere in the game, because the paths are going to be different. The clues are different to solve the puzzles, like the combination to the catacombs gate that we were just talking about. Yeah, I had a feeling that's randomized, because it looks like the murals where you find the clues. So the paintings are made where the clues. are layered on them.

So every time you start a new game, you know, it might be three cups on that table or it might be eight cups, you know? So details like that are switched around. So, well, for people listening, I don't really understand the game as a whole, the way the procedural generation works

is that there is a lot of key points in the world. And these key points are, say, like the entrance to the mind. So that's a key point. and then where is your next key point when you entered the mines? It's rescuing one of the main characters, Baston, and he's guarded by this cave troll. So the procedural generation kind of comes into play in between those points. So we basically, I basically hand-designed, like, a layout of the world, and that I thought would be cool.

And then we taught the procedural generator how to recreate variations of that. So we could say, when you walk into the mines until you fight the first mini-boss and rescue Bazden, we want 10 rooms between those two points and those rooms can have trolls in them, they can have slimes, you know, low-level slimes, they can have glowworms, and we got a few jumping puzzles, and that's it.

And then every time you start a new game, it kind of uses that same formula to build that path out there. So it's not going to be wildly different. And I think this is like a point of contention with people is like how random you want your game. Like some people are fine with it that every time you walk into the,

the mines for the first time. You're always going to go left to get there. Like, it's always a leftward jaunt out there because there is a overall structure to the world. Like, the gardens is always to the west. The catacombs are always to the east. Like, that is kind of like in cement, like where a lot of the things are spatially located in the world. And we're kind of like working within restrictions in that and kind of building these paths in between. And so we get questions like, well, what's the point of it then? You know, like if it's not going to be crazy different every time and I'm not going to go right or I'm not going to go left, you know,

and I'm not completely lost and, you know, like, what was the point? And I don't know. You know, for me, it's like I played Symphony Night a million times. And it's like every time I bust some candle, I know what's there. You know, like that sense of discovery is gone. Like there's never, there's never going to be anything different in that game if I go back and play it 10 years from now or 20 years from now. Yeah, I mean, I have taken to always using the luck code when I play symphony night

because that does make it unpredictable. You know, I did a live stream once where I used the live code, and I was like, I don't know how far I'm going to make it, because it can be really hard. But then I went up against the first doppelganger, you know, and the clock tower, and I killed it in one hit because I got a super lucky strike, and it was like ultra-critical.

So, you know, you never know. You don't know what's going to happen. You may have a hell of a time fighting a boss, like chipping away, doing no damage all, you know, through the entire fight. Or you get like a crazy idol. him drop. Incredibly lucky.

Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, kind of like in, in chasm, there's, there are enemies in certain places that drop things that make it easier to get other things. And so you start kind of building up on that and you get this like super variable game. But it is within, you know, the boundaries that were predefined by the map. And it sounds like yours is basically, you know, I've been kind of watching and trying to figure out, like how does, how does the procedural generation in this game work? And I've played, you know, messed around with a couple of different seeds.

And I've kind of got a feel for how. everything works but things do they they are placed differently like the one i'm playing through now i had the hardest time finding narina so i made it into like the catacombs i want to say before finding her and i eventually backtracked and figure out where she was oh man but yeah like i had to beat bosses just with you know just the sword crappy sword no special weapons basic armor and i was like uh this is really hard but then kind of once i you know got through that then I got really good at the game. Yeah.

So, yeah, like, it was not predictable. It was a little bit frustrating, but not in a bad way, where I'm like, this game's broken. It was more like, I'm broken. I can't figure this thing out. What's going on? Well, you know, speaking of the spells, like, I just saw Yatsy did a review of Kazum the other day. And, well, you know, he's always kind of dormic. Yeah.

He's, well, you know, whatever. I won't say anything about his review style. But he basically found a point that a lot of people found was she has a spell upgrading thing, right? So if you get the daggers and you find her book of incantations, she can use gyms and take the power from them and make your spells more powerful. So all the spells in the game can be upgraded twice. So with the daggers, you go from normal daggers to double daggers to eventually like Black Tiger-style triple daggers. So you're throwing three at a time. Nice. Well, so that actually ended up being a late addition to the game. And a lot of the stuff, like, you know, we just didn't catch some of the problems. Like, I designed, like, a mini boss. So, you know, you couldn't get, like, a good vantage point on it. Like, say you stood in the doorway and, like, you're a little bit above him. Like, you couldn't use the knives and sit there and throw them at him because they'd go over his head, right? But when we added the spell upgrades, you know, I didn't recheck all these, like, tiny situations.

so all of a sudden it was like you got these three daggers that spread and now people were able to sit in the doorway and just kind of like cheese them um and that also kind of extended with the balancing as well like there's some enemies especially a couple of the bosses that didn't have blocking moves at all and like you could like spam these things like really bad on them so of course that was like one of the things he brought up was once you get the triple daggers the game's over because you could just like walk through everything and uh you know oh man it's tough like I guess I guess like for me, I don't, if I got like a game breaking item, like if I was playing through, not just Casim, just any game, if I got some game breaking item, like maybe as a rare drop or, you know, maybe just because they miss something in the game, I'm not the kind of person that would use it. Like, I like the challenge of games. Like, that's why I play them. Like, I like all the old school stuff, you know, schmops and that kind of quick reaction time and stuff. So personally, I wouldn't use it. But I guess that's pretty much what happened was, you know, like, I didn't a lot of these situations after we added that because I don't play like that, you know? And by the time we got feedback, it was like too late, you know, the game was already out. So, you know, I did another

balancing pass. We've made all these like metrics, you know, we made this like our programmer made this special hitbox and you could just throw things at it and it'll tell you like, at this level your knives are doing, you're using this much mana and it's doing this much damage over this period, you know? And then we could actually

see like all the spells and see all the damage values and see what they were doing and we completely rebalanced it for 1.03 that we just released. So, yeah, I don't know, it's just like you see reviews, like Yattsi's review, he's like, I got the

triple daggers, I walked through everything, and the whole end of the game was boring because of that, and it sucks because it's like that was his one chance to experience the game probably and we kind of failed him. You know what I mean? Like, we created this situation where you could

cheese out the game, and people do. Like, and I think it's like human nature to a point, you know, like you want to find ways to exploit things. And it's like even though you might not be having the most fun you could, sometimes it's just hard not to, you know? It's just like, you know, for some people, cheezing a game is fun. Like, yeah, they get frustrated when they come up against too many Twitch friction. Some people just love cheat codes. We've had people asking us like, just tell me the cheat, get all the items. That's all I want.

I just want to, I don't care about getting achievements. I don't care about anything else. I just want all the stuff and run around and kill stuff. It's just like, well, you know, if that's like how you, how you like playing, here's the cheat code for the PC version, you know. Yeah, and I mean, how do you tell someone they're playing wrong? Like, if they're having fun, then that's great, I guess. As long as you're not ruining it for anyone else. Yeah, exactly.

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you have to find. And I know there are people who have programmed, like, Zelda and Metroid game ROM, scramblers, yeah, where it changes up the order in which things appear. And that's fine, but... It's almost game breaking in a way, usually. Yeah, like, I think it's, there's novelty to that, but I don't think that can be the base game. So, well, the idea of putting those two together seems really challenging. And I look at something like Rogue Legacy, and I look at something like Rogue legacy and I don't really think it's that fun. I think, you know, fled hook did okay, but it's much more of, you know, sort of these like self-contained spaces where you're not, you're not really doing exploration so much as just kind of moving around through these small dungeons. Yeah. It's like

you've got 20 screens total. And then you move on to the next one. Yeah. Well, I would say, you know, it's not totally contradictory. Like, I mean, I think like the exploration and procedural really go hand hand because if you replay the game, you're probably just to have still check your map to see like, where am I going? You know, like, because, like I said earlier, like the general flow of it is usually the same. Like, you might know you need to go left, but then you walk into a room and you're like, do I go up or down? Like, at least we could still have people pulling up their map and being like, hey, I don't have this entire game memorized in my head. Like, so I think it does work, procedural works great for exploration in that aspect, but like you said, it's when you get into the gates

and these, like, kind of key points or tent poles, I call them, like, that kind of hold the game up. That's where I didn't think it could be procedural. I don't know. Maybe there were some way to do it, but, like, to me, it felt like to design. And, you know, like, I always, like, keep reiterating over and over with this game. It's, like, I wanted a classic feel to it. Even though it's got procedural generation and, you know, some gimmicks like that,

like, I still wanted that classic feel to it where you see, just like you were talking earlier, Oh, I'm probably going to need the double jump to get past here, you know? I mean, maybe we could have randomized that, so that would be a slide point instead. But that kind of gets into the second part where I kind of felt like the power-ups in a lot of these games were underutilized except for gates. Like, a lot of them almost just treat them like keys. You know, it's like, Tiffany Knight has one, the jewel of open. You know, it's a power-up, but it's really just a key, right? Like, it's like literally a key.

like used to open what one or two doors i think um so i wanted to make sure that like every power up you got felt substantial and i tried to use them as much as possible in the areas so it's like when you get the ledge grab like a lot of the catacombs is designed around using the ledge grab uh because if you if you compare the maps and the mines to the catacombs like the mines if you're doing any sort of like vertical climbing it's all one way wooden platforms that you can jump through and you just kind of like climb up, whereas the catacombs is pretty much all ledge grab points. You're like trying to jump from point to point and climbing like that way. So I really wanted like a lot of those like tied in as as much as we could into the area design.

And that's another thing because I figured like if I did go the way where they could be interchangeable, then all the areas are just going to feel the same because I'd have to design them the same where you could use any power up to get around them. So I kind of doubled down on that and I was like, okay, you know, the catacombs is the one that you're going to to need the ledge grab heavy for and then the keep like you really need the wall jump to get around um there's just like almost no ledge grab points at that point it's just like lots of uh tight spaces where you could wall jump up or um different things like that and then later on in the game we introduce the flip where that also kind of ties in with the wall jumping so you can kind of climb a single wall almost like the old megaman games uh megaman x and all that um so yeah like i try

to tie those in to make it feel less generic but you know it's it's always this uh balancing point of like how far do you go random how far do you go with um kind of design stuff like purposeful stuff and designing things around it because the further you go down that like a route of designing things around the power ups and around this like the further you kind of like lock yourself into um a more handmade experience you know so And that's what I've always felt is sort of the defining feature that sets Metroid apart from other exploration-based games in that you don't have keys. You have power-ups for Samus. And they are combat maneuvers that also allow you to navigate the world and find new places.

And I don't think other games typically are very scrupulous about that. They're like, well, here's some keys. I mean, even somebody in the night, as you said. Yeah. Whereas Metroid, you know, you get missiles. now you can break open doors. You get power bombs, now you can break open other doors. You get the space jump, so now you can avoid enemies more easily in the screw attack,

but you can also reach new areas. It's almost like dual purpose in a way, because they are keys, but then like you're saying, they actually have a useful function outside of that that you need. Right, yeah. I mean, it feels like you are making Samus more powerful, and in the process, oh, hey, I just opened up more of the world. And it feels very organic in a way that you rarely see an exploration-based platformer action game.

Yeah, I agree. Actually, I really like Shadow Complex, too, when it came out. Like, I really felt, like, that game got a lot of, like, what Metroid was doing. Yeah, I was too harsh on that game when it first came out. Yeah, I can see. Going back, I'm like, you know, I think I deemed this for being too derivative of Super Metroid in terms of structure. But, you know, looking back, I think this is one of the few games where the developer really got what makes Metroid work. No, I totally agree.

And I think they had a few fun additions to us. Especially, like, the foam gun always comes back to my mind. Like, it's something that was just, like, so fun to play with. And I think that's something we got hammered a little bit on with Kazim is, like, we didn't really bring any crazy new mechanics to it. And a lot of that goes back to the Castlevania stuff, you know. And our hero in the game, we'll call him Dalton, but, you know, we kind of decided in the final game not to really give him a name.

But we just wanted him to be an ordinary guy, you know, in a fantasy world and kind of focus more on the melee combat. I mean, there's some spells you can get. They're all influenced by Castlevania and Goals and Goals pretty much, like all the different ones you can buy. Like we were saying earlier, like this game to me was supposed to be kind of picking up the torch

for those games that left off, and it's like, I didn't want to get too crazy with it in any aspect. Like, I didn't want it to be some game where it's like it's a Metroidvania, but you're in a weird spaceship flying around, you know, like that's not what I wanted. Like, I wanted this like ground down to the ground reality

kind of tight combat Castlevania style game and you know it's like every time you start thinking of mechanics to add to it it's like what what can we add I ended up leaning more almost towards the Metroid side like you were saying

like all the abilities you get in it are very acrobatic really like the gloves and the wall jumping and the you know that kind of stuff Like, it all kind of adds onto your move set versus giving you crazy weird stuff. And that was definitely deliberate. I don't know if that was to the harm of the game in the long run because there's nothing in it that really stands out from other games. I mean, like tons of games have double jump.

Tons of games have wall jumping and, you know, these things that you unlock through the game. So I don't know. Maybe that was to our downfall in a way. But I also felt like if we got too weird with it, it wouldn't feel like the games I wanted it to feel. like right well you know i just kind of playing through a few different seeds and kind of looking at the way the game unfolds i noticed that there are a lot of subtle things that i think work and favor the game it maybe doesn't have crazy amazing like wow i've never seen this in a video game before yeah there's a there's a lot that you do that i have noticed in games like last year i got you know

kind of carried away uh mapping out Metroid and some other games and one thing i noticed in you know drawing out the maps for Metroid looking at the way everything works out, is that each area of the game, besides having its own color palette, you know, and background graphics, it has its own feel to it, its own structural feel. Yeah. Like if you look, you know, Brynstar, the

starting zone, it's all like long corridors and tall shafts. Yep. But then you get down into like Ridley's Lair and it's very dense. Yeah. It's all the, and Norfolk also, like it's all these like super interlocked you know, criss-crossing pathways that you have to, just

like, clusters on the map as opposed to Brinstar, which is all spread out. And I noticed that you do some of that with, like, the mines are kind of like Brinstar, where it's all pretty much spread out. But then you get into the keep, and it's just like this dense knot of passageways that are all clustered together on the map. And, you know, having that sort of difference between dense exploration and more like traversal spaces, I think that that really helps keep some variety. And I don't think it's necessarily something people notice, especially because you don't have the whole map displayed at once. You have to kind of toggle between different maps.

So you might not, you know, someone who's not, you know, trained or hasn't taught themselves to map in a video game, might not really stop to think. Like, oh, like the minds look really different than the key. Well, and I think a lot of that, too, it's kind of pacing and also like, you know, in particular in the beginning of the game, it's like you're like teaching people without letting them know. You know what I mean?

And it's like, you want to keep the pace up and you want to give them something straightforward. It's just like, okay, this part of the game, we're just running down hallways, killing enemies. Like there's not really, you know, okay, you might see some spots where you'll be able to come back later, but there's not really any major branches where it can confuse you, where it's like, oh, this way goes out, you know, so many rooms down this, and then maybe you'll find out you can't proceed. And then this other ways is really the main path. Like, I tried to keep it straightforward all the way up until the second area. And that's where once you get to that catacombs lock, that's like the first spot in the game where it's like, all right, you're on your own from here, dude.

Like, you're just going to have to explore and figure out what's next. But I at least wanted, like, that first hour of the game to get you into the controls, get you into some minor exploration, getting used to like, like we were talking earlier, checking, poking your head in each room, see what's in there. You know, see if it's worth even going that way or if you should just continue on the way you are. And, yeah, I mean, like, these are all things that, you know, you have to take into consideration, I guess, when you're doing this stuff. But in general, I try to keep the beginning of the game more straightforward and just kind of straight shot passages. And then towards the end, it definitely becomes a little bit more. Like, once you get to the temple area, that's very much inspired by the last dungeon in the first Zelda. you know, when you're just, when you're in Gannon's dungeon and it's just like warps all

over the place and you're like, where the hell am I? Like, I very much went for that same feel for the penultimate area in the game because I wanted that kind of feel where it just throws you off from the rest of it. You're just like, you're like, all turned around and like just wondering where to go next, you know, so I wanted that escalation feeling to the game and I think some people get it and some got frustrated once they got there. they're like, what the hell? I've been running around this place.

I can't figure out where to go. Because once you get to that point, I know you haven't seen it yet, but I would call it more islands. Because, you know, like, when you're in the mines or like the catacombs, it's all like one big interconnected structure. You know, like all the rooms are connected together.

The game originally wasn't designed like that, though. Our earlier attempts at the procedural generation, it was hard for us to combine those sections together without the rooms overlapping. So it's like if you had one section that went off kind of upwards to the left and one that went off downwards to the left, sometimes like they'd kind of build up into each other and there would be problems. You know, you'd get rooms overlapping and things like that.

So in the beginning, we had all the dungeons kind of separated out into about 10 to 15 room. We called them sub-areas. So there was like five main sub-areas to the mines. Like you'd go through about 10 rooms and then you'd eventually get to a door and it would just have like a dotted line on your map that would connect to another door. So they didn't physically connect. It was just kind of like a spatial connection. Like, okay, if you walk through this door, you'll traverse this dotted line, kind of like in Super Metro, you know, where you see the elevators. It's like, they don't really connect since you're going between

areas, but you know, you can see on your map like, oh, okay, this connects to that. So there's more design like that. So you'd like go through 10 rooms or so. Then you'd get to like one of these doors with a dotted line that would teleport you to another and then you'd go through that. So everything kind of felt a bit more disconnected. And that was one of the things that Dan Edelman pushed for us last summer. So that was actually a more recent change where we were like, okay, let's try to get everything connected into like these kind of mega structures. And we went back at it again and we figured it out that time. But so for the temple, I left it kind of like the old school way was.

So all the main areas are all like these big masses now. But then when he gets to the temple, it's all these like little areas. And they all have these teleporters. it has its own teleportation system that's different than the rest of the game and you're just kind of like going in between all these different little chunks and you're like, where the hell am I?

Which teleporter and which one was the one that takes me where I need to go next? Yeah, but that disorienting feel can work to the game's favor when it's a change of pace. Like it makes me think of the hanging gardens in Ari of Sorrow, Cassanoi of Rai of Sorrow, where everything is contiguous

up until that point of the game and then all of a sudden you're like going to these sort of standalone spaces that on the map are all disconnected and you don't know exactly where you're going yeah and you know what's happening here yeah it becomes kind of confusing and you have to you have to rethink how you are traversing the the game map so yeah i think that that's you know kind of using that legacy style in an interesting way is a smart idea One thing really works to the game's favor is that I kind of feel like the game's

Maybe it isn't designed around the placement of save rooms, but there's clearly a lot of thought put into how far the save rooms are apart. And because you don't regenerate health, unless, you know, you get the mythral armor, I guess, you know, you don't pick up health drops from enemies like you do in Metroid. It's more like Symphony of the Night. It becomes almost like those are your little havens of exploration. And, you know, every time you venture out, you're kind of taking this risk-reward element like, I'm up against really hard enemies and I think there's something further out here, but maybe I want to go back to the last save point because I found a really cool drop and I don't want to run out of health before I get to the next safe point and lose that cool

drop and have to, you know, start over without it. So it does create this real sense of, you know, pushing into danger and leaving your safe zone. And then, you know, there are special events like the Wheel of Fortune or whatever where you're really like, okay, I'm putting it all in the line here. Is this a good idea or not? When was the last time I saved? Have I found anything sent that?

How far are I from the save point? Yeah. So it does become this kind of game of calculations. Yeah. And, you know, I think it helps to have sort of an exploratory mindset. We were talking earlier before the podcast about the way I approach a game like this is anytime I come across a door, I at least look through to see what's on the other side and then decide, oh, maybe I don't want to go that way.

So then I head up to a different, you know, to a different door or something. but I want to at least know, like, is there a safe point here? Is there a treasure here? What's happening? Like, I need to know. Like, I got to get a case for my surroundings. And having the procedural generation, I think, is a pretty interesting way to keep people on their toes, even once they do, you know, complete the game. Because then when they return, they're like, well, I know how this works in general, but I still don't know where the next save point is.

Yeah. And I think if you play, you know, well, and this is getting back into, like, see, I think you've got to be a big fan in these games if you want to play them multiple times. but we added the mortal mode. But who isn't? Who isn't? Oh, I could tell you a lot of people. Steam that aren't. Just go check the Steam review.

Yeah, exactly. I was going to say, we added the mortal mode, which kind of harkens back to the original roguelike idea of Permadeth. And, dude, it gets pretty crazy. Like, if you play on the hard mode with Permadeth and you don't know where you're going sometimes,

like you don't know exactly how long some of these paths are going to be or what enemies exactly are going to be in the next room, it becomes pretty tricky like with your decision-making process of like do I double back and hit that save point or do I keep trying to push forward because you know it's like that idea that like if you don't know what's ahead you're actually faced them with some tough choices you know like and I think that's definitely one of those things that makes games in particular interesting is that element of choice in them you know you can you can always some people will hang around a save point and just farm the hell out of everything get as many item drops as they can, over-level their character, and then just, like, walk through the next boss. Some people will just play, see their pants and not even check some of the rooms, like you were saying.

They'll just run straight forward and do whatever. Like, there's so many different play styles. But I think that's what's great about this kind of game. It's like, you can do that. Like, you can kind of decide how you want to play it and kind of control the level of challenge to yourself if you want. Because if you compare to something, you know, more straightforward, say like Metal Slug,

you're a contra or something like, you know, you're on a path and you pretty much have to go through these enemies. There's no choice there, you know. I mean, there is some, like, you know, depending on the platforming and stuff, but overall, you really don't have a lot of choice in those kind of games, like how you want to proceed. So, I don't know. But yeah, regarding the safe points, like I did deliberately try to keep them all about 15 minutes of gameplay, 20 tops from each other. as you start getting towards the end of the game, that also changes up a little bit. We try to tie the lore into as much as possible, too.

Like, even the save points themselves are tied into the lore, and there's a little bit of frustration with some people because the temple area I mentioned there is no safe points because it wouldn't make sense of lore-wise for them to be in there. So, you know, I mean, there's a way to get out, though, in save, but it's a little bit less inconvenient, you know? And I thought it would be interesting, though, once again, to try things that mix it up like that.

Like, oh, you're used to being able to just go to a safe point easily and farm around it? No, not now. Like, now you've got to teleport out of this area completely if you want to save, you know, those kind of things. So I don't know. Like, I tried to keep the game as varied as I could going from area to area and make sure each one, like you said, had a different feel to it. Not only with just kind of how the overall structure is, but just the general idea of the enemies and the hazards and, you know, how you solve the area, I guess you'd say. Like we were talking earlier, like the mines is very straightforward.

Like there's no overarching puzzle to that area or anything to get through it. It's just like literally run down corridors until you get to the boss at the end. Then you get to the catacombs and it gets a little bit more mixed up because you get to that lock gate. And all of a sudden it's like, you're not just walking straight forward anymore. Then you get to the next area and it's also got something like that where you come to this pool of water and you can't get to the other side of it without raising the water. level. So then you're exploring around that area trying to figure out how to do that. And then the next area has another hook like that. So I tried to bring like an interesting hook to each area like that and then also kind of mix it up. But like I said earlier, like I tried to, I think

I felt a little bit in the catacombs kind of easing into that when I had all those puzzle clues kind of separated out. Like I think that was kind of a little bit too much too soon. So hopefully that tweak helped that. But I definitely wanted it to kind of feel like as you were going, things got a little less, not just like convenient, but I don't know, just make you think a little bit more, you know, a little less obvious, I guess. One thing that I think is really different from games like Castlevania is that the enemies have very specific behavior patterns. I mean, you know, Castlevania, you have Medusa's or whatever. Yeah. But I feel like the enemies in this game are very much about, like, they'll hit you really hard unless you know how to avoid them.

You have, you know, wizards who kind of shoot this arcing beam out. you. You have, you know, like, armored cobalds who take a big old swipe at you. And a lot of the game really does revolve around kind of backdashing or jumping over attacks and managing kind of space and, like, learning enemies from ganging up on you and getting, you know, getting caught in the crossfire between a lot of patterns. Where is that, like, where is the inspiration for that? Well, honestly, like, a lot of that comes from, from me just thinking symphony's too easy. that was a lot of it was like I mean that game's like you were saying

it's like you almost really need to play in luck mode to like give yourself a true challenge in that game just because it feels so straightforward once you get to the upside down castle I think it gets a lot more challenging but also gets a lot weirder at the same time it's like you got those Zelda styles spike traps on the floor everywhere

That's exactly what I was thinking with the skeletons and like bouncing kettle Oh god I hate those things slows down the hardware Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Some of those enemies were just annoying to me. So I tried to keep as much as I could the enemies not annoying, but have, it was very much like a building process like when I made the enemies. Because it's like almost all the behaviors are similar. Like there's only so much you can do in 2D, right? It's like you're standing to the left or right of the enemy. It has an attack. You need to avoid. And then you got to move in for the kill, right? With these kinds of. kind of games at least like you're kind of penalized from using range attacks from the hearts that you have to collect or the mana and chasm. So it's very much a game of close combat. So there's only so many situations you could possibly create, you know, where it's like you got to go in and

out. But you know, as the game goes on, a lot of the enemies get bigger, their strikes get bigger, like their range. But like as you said, like I also tried to mix it up with like the necromancer's got like the laser beam that can shoot. There's a lot of enemies laid in the game that have like trickier projectile attacks. So it's like you got to get in quick and then get away because they're going to shoot some crazy projectiles at you that are going to be hard to avoid, things like that. But I really wanted it, a feel of building throughout the game.

So there's a couple base enemy behaviors, I would call it, that we kind of build off of. You got like the floaty guys that just float at you, you know. And then as the game goes on, they kind of change behavior a little bit. And then you've got what I would call the kind of core melee enemies. So those start out as like the cobalds in the mines They're very much just like kind of staying there If you approach them

They'll either strafe towards you to attack Or strafe away from you to avoid your swings Once you go into the catacombs Those become the whites The kind of undead dudes with the white cloaks And then you go into the gardens And they're like these like purple sludge guys That have crazy claws and like jump at you

So it's kind of all the same base behavior on those But like it's all tweaked for each area So it's like how far can they reach, how fast can they move, those kind of things. And then we've got like the bigger heavy hitting dudes, you know, especially in the gardens. We've got the rock gollums. They're like double the size of the player. And if you get too close to like stomp the ground in front of you and hit you with a shockwave, or if you get too far away, they'll like throw rocks at you, like these huge boulders, you know.

So in those kind of cases, it's like you want to make sure if the player runs away too far, you can still hit them, you know. But if they come too close, you also want an attack. that works for that too. So as you get farther into the game, a lot of the enemies start getting double attacks, or at least two, sometimes even three,

depending on them. So yeah, it's just like a game of like building, kind of introducing concepts to the player and then just like continually taking it a step further, a step further until you get to the end of the game. And like those simple guys that we were talking about now can like do flip attacks at you and combos like three hit combos and like different things like that

where it's like you really got to be on your toes and like understand their attack patterns or you'll just get. destroyed you know yeah i think the good the game is pretty good at sort of um giving you a sense of mastery of overcoming uh steep obstacles and and have odds because i come into a new area every time and i'm like oh god no no not an oh oh it's destroying me but you know after you play for a while you get new equipment and yeah you level up a little bit and then you go back to revisit once you get a power and you're like oh why were these guys ever hard yeah yeah when i think the moment, like, my main go-to weapon is the leather whip. And I know at some point

that's not going to be powerful enough. Yeah. And I keep like, anytime I find an item that makes me a little stronger that I can equip, I'm like, I'm going to put defense in the background and focus on strength so I can keep this whip as long as possible because it has like the best feel to it of all the weapons. But I know that's not going to last forever and it's going to be a long time before I can make that, before I can make that platinum whip. So, like, platinum chain. In between there, I don't know what, what is, what is waiting for me. So I've really got to, yeah, like I'm kind of dreading the point at which my my go-to weapon becomes obsolete. But that happens, though. That's the tension. Well, and I think

that's part of the thing. So it's like when you walk into that new area, you've got new enemy patterns to learn. And that's really the core of it. I mean, like, yeah, you can focus on. And I mean, like, I kind of missed this for a long time, too, and I kind of had to figure it out. But the core of this game really is the enemy encounters. Like, I think it's easy to get. And this is going right back to the main concept of the game. It's easy to get lost with a Metroidvania-style game and focus on the backtracking and the power-ups. I mean, yeah, that's like what the genre is known for,

but at the same time, that's not what really makes a Castlevania game a Castlevania game. It's the room-to-room combat and, you know, encountering these new enemies, learning their patterns, and then overcoming them. Yeah, and I think even some of the Castlevania games have lost sight of that. Yeah. Some of the ones on DS, you're kind of,

It's another big room, like just a big box with some enemies in it and I don't care. Yeah, it's tricky. It's very tricky. And, you know, one of the things that we kind of got beat up for in some of the reviews was people saying the rooms were boring. You know, it's like, ah, there was like three rooms in a row that just had enemies to fight. And I mean, it's tricky. Like, I want the game to feel varied. Like, we have, you know, the way the procedural generation works, I made rooms that are just,

platforming rooms and you probably saw some in the mines and some of the catacombs like in the mines you've got like these like little wooden platforms they're kind of over these pits of like uh poison fog and then when you get into the catacombs it's a little bit more super metroid it's like these pits of ooze and then you've got like these kind of towers uh sticking out of them that you're kind of ledge grabbing from one to the next one so i tried to put it stuff like that to mix it up uh instead of just like constantly running down hallways fighting stuff but that really is the core of these games is running down hallways fighting stuff and i mean the reality is like i could make rooms that are like big square things where you're like going up and down and whatever but like one that

doesn't work right with the procedural generation because how many of those rooms can you put back to back till you get tired of that you know like this constant like up and down kind of thing and going back and forth um and uh two i don't know like it just didn't i try to I tried that a lot, but it just kept coming back to, like, you need straightforward combat. Like, that's what made the game feel good. And, like, earlier on in the early builds of the game, around 2015, we put out for our Kickstarter backers, a beta build. Well, we caught in an alpha then even. And we kind of got tore up by them because my initial gut reaction when I started designing the game was,

I want 50% platforming, 50% combat. I felt like that would be like a good mix. right so you wouldn't get bored of it um you know you'd go down one hallway fight three enemies and you go down another and you'd have some platforming and then you'd go down another you'd be back to fighting enemies uh but when we put that into practice people were like man this is just punishing and it doesn't feel good to explore at all like i feel like if i backtrack ever it's just annoying because it's like you've just constantly got all these obstacles to jump over and you're not fighting enemies so you're not gaining experience you're not getting chances at drops so it really

became more of like an 80-20 thing like the more we pushed it like it's like okay we need more combat then because the platforming makes it annoying the backtrack and you can't get you're not fighting these enemies and like feeling more powerful you know what I mean like so it's just like this whole

I don't know man it's like you're constantly balancing this thing and like on a dumb tack it feels like it feels like at any moment the whole thing could just fall over you know it's like if you don't get it quite right so we mess with that a lot like just trying to

get it to a point where it felt like the gameplay was varied, but it wasn't annoying to backtrack, and it felt like you still had chances to get item drops, and it felt like you were making progress and not just going in this like twisted, like, up and down and left and right, like, kind of keep

things feel like they're moving forward. So that's kind of why it ended up how it did with like, more straightforward corridors, kind of like leading to bigger hubs that then kind of branch out in different directions. like that's why the design ended up a little bit closer to that was to prevent these other problems but then people are like well all the rooms are just straight shots and the background art isn't

that varied and you know this or that it's just a lot of work I guess and I think like you know what we're up against with Castlevania in particular like I think their plus side was that they had a pretty big art team and they would just throw people and be like look make all kinds of crazy assets and if you look at symphony the night the art quality is all over the place especially once you start getting to like some of those smaller areas that are like a little harder to get to like they're a little less they're a little more off the beaten path

yeah like the underground uh caverns with the ice and everything that's all pretty repetitive but then you have something like old old rocks is layer where it's like every room is different every room feels there's like you know this this huge courtyard with a blood fountain and there's a prison and there's a banquet

hall yeah every single one it's it's really all over the place and even within the the castle like every area, the moon looks different. Yeah. Like sometimes it's a full moon, sometimes it's like a crescent, sometimes it's behind clouds. There's some crazy variation in there. But so, I mean, like, in hindsight, I really wish we would have had double the art almost

just to, like, make sure all of these rooms feel different in a way. I kind of feel, though, like either way, you'd probably get back into the enemies again. Like, one of the things I like about Castlevania is, like, some of the rooms feel pretty themed, like you were saying, like, you go down to the ice area. There's, like, certain enemies you see in those rooms. But, like, I don't know. Like, if you're in a castle and you're in, like, room after room, it's like, well, you can't just make the dining room, especially if it's a procedural game.

You don't only see the dining room once, you know? It's like, you kind of want to make things that you can use multiple times. And even with this, I was kind of like, well, you know, it's not so bad if you see the same room twice, if it has different enemies in it and there's something different about it. Like, because, I mean, the room's just a room. Like, the room is the placeholder for the combat, like I was saying earlier, like, that's the core of the game. game like it's kind of the set just set that up for you and it's like it really doesn't need to be different but i think that's one of the things that they did do right with a lot of these

castlvania games is that they usually have at least like one pieces of unique art in a room it might just be a fountain or something in the middle one of the rooms i really love in symphony is that one that's like the longest hallway ever made yeah the marble the marble corridor yeah you know exactly what i'm talking about eyeball floating and you're just like running down this thing and you know the funny thing. I think this might actually this might be something I look into coming up. The thing I noticed about Castlevania and I think

this might be one of the things that people are kind of complaining about but they don't realize it is in that game they usually group all the enemies together. So even in that room I think it's pretty much the same enemy. Yeah, it's like the Diplosophilus the plant monster

with the girl head on the back. And then there's the stone rose. Yeah, like right in the middle or something like that. Like Fleming, I think. maybe, but it's just like, it's like three enemies. Yeah, it's like repeated. And I think that was almost to our detriment that our procedural generator mixes things up so much because if you walk into a room, say, in the gardens and it's got like a blue toad in it and a rock golem and, you know, one of those fungus guys, it's like, it's, it's,

I basically put spawn points in them and then said like, hey, these things work well here, right? So it's like you walk into the room, it could be any of those. Like, I mean, it's decided when you start a new game. but then it's like you go to the next room and because it can be any of those things I think it almost unintentionally feels less varied because it's more varied, right? So if you walk

into a room that has those three different enemies and then you walk into the next room and it ends up with a similar set of enemies as well it almost kind of feels the same even though it's got a lot of variation inside the room I feel like maybe if you're going to that next room then maybe it would have been better to say

hey this is the room with the mushroom guys and it's got four of them And then you go into the next one, and it's got the ones with the fungus guys or with the rock columns, you know, like three in a row or something like that. So I don't know. Maybe in our case like that was a little bit of a detriment. And I feel like maybe the art on the same token also kind of fell into that where, you know, it's like our artists made five different things for the backdrops that can be used. Like, you know, in the catacombs, we've got like these like skeletons that go in the walls. or like banners that hang.

And it's like when you, when you're styling a room, you want the room to feel as varied as possible. So I'm using skeletons. I'm using the banners. And then I've got like these enemy spons that are like random. But then it's like when you got two rooms back to back and they both share these common elements of like banners and skeletons, I think it ends up feeling almost too similar. So it's like you're,

where maybe we were a little bit too focused on making the room itself inside feel too varied. You know, so maybe it should have just been one room has. banners and skeletons. The next one, or you know, like some mummies or whatever that you fight and then skeletons in the background wall. And then the next room should just be skeletons in the backgrounds and then just certain enemies you fight.

I mean, we're still tweaking things, obviously. So these are changes I can make. But this is just the kind of... That's what I want to talk about is the fact that this is still kind of a living product. You know, you are still tweaking. And because it is not a game where everything is set in stone, I feel like that leaves you a lot of latitude to go back and say, you know, we can make changes.

We can, you know, depending on how much. how much energy and time and money you want to put into this, you can address a lot of these things because it's not like you're going to be taking away this place that people know and have become invested in because every time they play... And it's not like the 90s either where it's like once it's burned to a ROM on a cartridge, that's the game.

You've got the ability to push updates. I assume this is coming to other platforms at some point. I don't know if you have like a Sony exclusivity deal or if you can go to Xbox One. Does anyone go to Xbox One? I don't know. There's dozens of us, dozens! But, you know, you do have, I feel like, the freedom to change up the game on a fundamental level to say, you know, let's tweak this.

But is that something you want to do? Do you feel like that's a betrayal of people who have invested time into games the way they are now? I got the perfect analogy for you. And this just happened like yesterday. Okay. So I know you haven't gotten there yet in your playthrough, but there is a parachute item that you get. and it basically lets you kind of float across long gaps. Well, the way I designed it was you press jump once, you jump up in the air,

you press jump again and hold it, you deploy your parachute and you fall. But this ended up causing a lot of trouble, especially when you get the flip. Once you get the flip, then it becomes more complicated because it's like you jump, and then you can flip, and then if you press it and hold it again, you can use your parachute and float. but it kind of created all these like situations where the controls won't act quite how you want them to in the time like it's consistent like it always behaves the same like with the way but sometimes say you're like fighting an enemy and you go to jump away and you're like in your frantic and you press the jump button one too many times you know deploying your parachute and then all of a sudden you're like slowly going away for something that's like coming at you super quick and it's like shit okay so I ended up going back I was like looking at it I'm like looking at the control scheme and I was like you know what I got way too much stuff on this jump button this needs to be moved so I'm like looking at it and you know maybe

I'm just dumb but I wanted like very early on people were playing in the game with super Nintendo controllers and all this stuff so I only wanted to use one set of shoulder buttons especially for the console or like the smaller handhelds and stuff like I knew Vita you really only got the L&Rs so I didn't want to use both triggers I wanted to keep it just to the

four face buttons and then the bumpers so I'm like looking at it and I'm like oh my god we got a completely open button for the air with the back dash so in the last build i just pushed out like two or three days ago i moved the parachute off the jump button to the back dash button so now because it's not used it at all in the air like it's only used on the ground so there's no interfering at all with other controls and i tested it for a day i gave it to a few other people to play everybody came back and they were like this is great like this is a great change i don't feel like i'm accidentally using the parachute

when i'm jumping away from stuff or when i'm trying to do a wall jump and i press the button too early It doesn't deploy the parachute like it was. So it felt like a great change all around. I go to push it out on Steam the other day. And then like almost immediately, this is unacceptable. You know, like I'm already used to it working on the jump button. I don't want to change. Can you add an option in there to chain it on the jump button like it was?

So, you know, it's like we're constantly trying to improve things. But at the same time, like as soon as people get used to something, it is tricky to change stuff, you know. Well, personally speaking, I think you guys really needed a button customization feature in there, because I really want to backdash on a shoulder button as opposed to the triangle. That's how I work in Symphony, and it's so close. I want to do it that way again. I know, right. But, yeah, I kind of agree.

And that is on our list to do is customizable game pad controls. We do have it for the keyboard. We just weren't able to get the game pad one in in time. I mean, honestly, like, I didn't, the reason it didn't really occur to me that people would want to remap game pads. Like, I don't know. Like, why would you never want to include the, you know, the ability to let people play the game? Like, that's most comfortable. Yeah, and I would say for the most part, that's okay.

It can kind of get weird sometimes. Like, if you try to remap some buttons, like, I don't know, like, if you, the way it's set up right now, I think, like, the spell cycling is on the shoulders. So if you move the backdash to one of the shoulders, do you only sign up? cycle spells in one way, or does that get assigned to what would be one of the face buttons? Like, I don't know. Like with Mega Man X, I always put dash on the right shoulder,

and then weapon cycling on the left, so I just cycle in one direction, and so be it. Actually, which Castlevania game was that? Was that Ecclesia where you could dash both directions? That was a harmony of dissonance. Oh, was it? On GBA. Maybe Ecclesia also, but I know

harmony of dissonance. You can do a forward. That's how I got through the castle. I just, like, dashed I didn't even use the D-pad for... I was just, like, dashing. Because it was like both triggers dashed both ways. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was like a forward and a back. I mean, that could be pretty cool,

and that would actually be something I would consider doing. You know, funny enough, speaking of the dash, like, that was, like, one of the things, like, earlier on that drove me nuts whenever I'd see Symphony of the Night speed run. Like, everybody's... Not even speed run. People just dashed through the whole game backwards.

It's just like, why? But I don't know. Like, I think that actually kind of, kind of bit us in the butt unintentionally because we had a delay in there before the backdash where there was like a transition animation and it ended up slowing you down enough that you probably wouldn't want to try to speed through the game like that but it kind of adversely affected the timing with enemies like getting away quick enough so that was one of the another one of the things in the last build I fixed was I made and actually it really wasn't

on purpose. Like when I went back and looked at it, the way that the code worked, it basically said, hey, if you press the backdash button, it plays the transition animation to start the backdash. And then once it got into the full backdash animation, then it applied the velocity. And I don't even know, like, thinking back if that was completely on purpose, but I changed it. So the velocity actually starts as soon as the transition does. So as soon as you push that button now, you get immediate feedback. But once again, though, as soon as we made that change, I am accustomed to having that delay there and being able to backdash and then immediately attack while I'm backdashing.

So it's like no matter what you do, there are always people out there that have already grown accustomed to what it is and have figured out their own exploits, you know, and strategies, I guess you could say, based around what it was. And it's like, even if they know it's for the better, they still don't like that fact

that they might have to relearn something or you kind of killed their own strategy that they've been developing. So that is something like we're being very careful of. But at the same time, I'm kind of putting these things on a scale, you know? It's like the thing with the parachute. It's like the positives way outweigh any of the negatives of somebody that's just been playing the game.

I mean, the game's only been out for like, what, two weeks? So it's like, I'm thinking long term here, like the next two years, what's good for people, you know, that are going to be playing this game? So for me, that was an easy decision. I honestly didn't think in that when there would be any blowback. So I was kind of surprised when I saw people like, this is ridiculous. You can't just be changing controls. And this is like, I understand where you're coming from.

Yeah, I mean, I've, I've been. one of those people before with some things like on computers especially I get accustomed to using things a certain way like Photoshop they changed so Command F used to be used filter and now it brings up like

a help feature I don't I don't constantly pulling that up by accident like now the filter like reused last filter is on some like three or four button arcane combo yeah so that's super frustrating so you know I kind of

where people like that are coming from but at the same time it might not be for the best but you've already learned it yeah right exactly it's like i some people i guess have just settled with it and they're okay with it you know what i mean and then you got the others that are like literally like i'm not playing this game until you fix this and then you've got the guys that are like yeah it's it's not the greatest but i've learned to live with it and i'm fine with it and don't change it like you know so you really run the whole gamut there the fine art of settling yeah it is really So what does the game is not, you know, so what does the future hold for Kaz? It sounds like the game is not, you know, set in stone at this point.

Yes. What do you talk about? We're going to keep tweaking things. I mean, the biggest things that we've been worried about the past two weeks are obviously bugs are number one. We've been trying to work out all the kinks. Any places people are getting stuck, whether through code or just through design, like that catacombs gate I had mentioned with the lock. So we're making some tweaks like that. Making some tweaks with the gameplay, like I mentioned with the parachute.

I also kind of adjusted the cool down periods a little bit on the swords to give people a little bit more leeway, things like that. So we're making those sort of adjustments, a lot of fine-tuning type things right now. Just trying to smooth out the overall experience, nothing drastic, but, you know, anything we can to improve it in the short term, that's what we're focused on at the moment. Longer term becomes a little bit more tricky. I can't really tell you anything concrete just because, not because it's secret, but just because we don't know, you know. it's like we're taking in all this feedback and uh you know and we were having a conversation before the podcast where it's like we've got people coming at us from all walks of life and playing this game and giving us just wildly different feedback as far as um what they

expected and what they got and what they think it should be so you know i don't know we're kind of we're in that spot now where we're kind of coming to terms with like what is the game and what should it be and what shouldn't it be, you know, like, which we definitely do not want to change things so drastically that we turn off our core audience, which by far is Castlevania fans. Like, I think that should be number one on our priority list is to keep those people happy and not ruin that, you know, not just give in and take out any penalties for swinging the sword whenever you feel like and, you know, the attack cancelling with the double hits, you know, with landing on the ground, that kind of stuff.

Like, I think that stuff has to stay because that's the stuff to me that is the most important in the game by far. Yeah, I mean, at some point you have to draw a line and say, like, this is my vision for the game. And if people don't necessarily like it, you know, I might not just be the game for them. Right. You know, I feel like that's kind of another problem with today's games, like we were talking about, where it's like every game feels like it has to cater to.

to every person, you know? And, like, I just think you end up with something like unintentionally watered down because, and I mean, like, it's the same thing with chasm. Like, we're filing off all those rough edges, right, on the statue. But it's possible for it to end up as one of those pillow faces. You just pile it down so much. Like, you just loses all identity and it loses, like, everything that, like, makes it interesting to the people that like it.

So, you know, I mean, as someone who's. basically committed his life to creating a podcast that appeals to a very specific niche audience. There's nothing wrong with saying like, this is who I'm working for. Yeah, and I think you're, it's as a creator, it's

frustrating, right? Because I want everybody out there, and I'm sure you feel the same with your podcast. You want everybody out there to be able to enjoy it. But you know you can't. Like, it's just not possible because as soon as you walk down that line of, well, maybe this podcast shouldn't just be about video games. Maybe we should

also talk about movies. Well, we do that sometimes. Yeah, but, but, so I think that's kind of the general idea, though, is like, the further you push it, the more it becomes unrecognizable for what you were trying to create. And I think that goes through all aspects of the game, like, everything from story to UI, the gameplay, to the graphics, like, it all has to follow some level of consistency to get the right feel that we wanted. And, you know, I don't know, it's just, it's just, it's really.

tricky. I definitely want it to appeal to more people. And I think maybe it's possible by other means than just altering the main game mode. So we are looking into doing alternate game modes that will play faster and different. For the people

that don't want so much of a slow exploration game. Because obviously we don't want to throw the baby out with bathwater and just be like, nobody's getting a slow exploration game now. Like, you know, it's like, so I think there might be some ways possibly appeal to more people without completely changing everything.

So that's kind of like what we're trying to figure out right now. And it's painful, to say the least. You know, because it's like, I don't know, I feel like we've been running circles a lot too. You know, it's like, well, we could try this. But, you know, if we can't do that right, then these people still aren't going to like it. And we could try this.

But if that doesn't work quite right, then we're not going to get those people. You know, it's like there's always some limit there. Like, I mean, just to give you an idea, like, we were talking about an arcade mode. And then you start getting into, like, well, how arcade should it be? You know, like, if it was true arcade, should there even be melee weapons? Like, maybe we could just go back to subweapons only and make it like ghouls and ghosts or something, you know, where it's like you got the daggers of the axes. So, like, you're trying to figure out these ways.

But you get to a point, like, where you start analyzing this stuff and you're like, yeah, but, okay, we're going to throw away the things that make the game good, like the melee combat, that all the enemies are based around. so then we end up changing all the enemies. And then even if we did this, the people that are into that style of game, is it going to be enough for them? You know, is this, like if we made it a roguelike game or whatever, like a roguelike mode, is it going to have enough of those features that people identify with roguelikes to make it worth playing over and over? Or is it still just going to be like something that they're like, nah?

And then the people that, like, the main story mode are going to be like, nah. You know, it's like, you get all these ideas of things you could do, but then you really have to question once you start throwing things out and changing things like who are you appealing to? Are you even going to end up appealing to the audience you're trying to in the end? Or are you just going to end up creating more problems

because you create something that's kind of like what they want but not really? You know, like I think like you were talking about earlier with Rogue Legacy, people say Rogue-like now and I don't even think like half the people think the same thing when they say that. Like if I say Rogue-like to you, you might be thinking Rogue.

Like, asky graphics. Like, I start a new game. I go floor by floor. When I die, it's over. But if I say that to somebody else, they might be like, Rogue Legacy. You throw yourself out a wall and you keep playing the same thing over and over, but you're unlocking things and have this meta-progression mechanic

where your character is constantly getting better. But the level is just kind of always the same difficulty level, but you're just making your character better until you can kind of break through. So it's like, who is it that you're even trying to appeal to if you say Rogue like mode you know like who what are they expecting like and i think that was um you know getting back to those steam reviews that are awful um it's not that bad it's mixed right now i think so it's not it's not like it's like mostly terrible or whatever uh the rating is but um i think there was a lot of problem in our messaging um about what people should expect for the game and we had a lot of

people that came in expecting something completely different than what they got and uh i mean that's probably on us, you know, for maybe not marketing the game correctly or changing it in the past. Because like, I was telling you earlier, like, when I very first started working on this game in 2012, I was posting on the TIGSource forums and saying it was a rogue-like. But by 2013, I had completely dropped the rogue-like word from any marketing, but somehow it just stuck with us. For years and years and years, people still thought the game should be rogue-like. I don't know if that's because it had procedural generation or because of how it had been marketed way earlier and that's just

how people talked about it to their friends and how it was introduced to them and that's how they just like once they got that idea in their head no matter how we changed the game that's how it was but we definitely had this major clash of like what people thought the game should be and what it was and I feel like even

if we try to go back to that and fix it like I don't know if we'll be able to properly you know it's like so that's kind of where we're at right now with Kazim is like you know if we want to appeal to people, what can we do? And even if we try to, you know, are we going to be able

to do it right? Are we going to be able to get those people back? Are they even going to like it? You know, if they play this, you know, if we made some sort of arcade mode say that played twice as fast as the main game and took all the expiration out and you just went room by room killing stuff and you got crazy items, there's all kind

of variability. Would rogue-like people even still like that, like the ones that like Rogue Legacy because there's no meta-progression mechanic? You know, like if you die and everything's gone, are they just going to be mad and be like i'm starting all the way over now with with nothing this is crap i should be unlocking new things each time i die you know like i don't it's just so hard now with all these different genres and different expectations and all these different game

styles coming out um trying to cater to people like and figure out what they want you know and uh and again it's like you're like you're almost kind of chained your feet are chained together Because it's like, I know we can't change things too drastically. You know, because we'll lose the feel of the game. It will lose the identity. We start trying to change the combat and change the style and all these other things. So, yeah, I don't know. I would say, like, the safe bet for now.

This is probably what we'll end up doing is we're going to add more content. We'll probably add more rooms to the game for more variations. If you play it through two different things, probably more items. We've been talking about, like, small things, like adding random stats on the items. So even if you get an item out of a chest, it might have less 2% crit chance or something. Kind of like Diablo, you know, you've got like normal items, and then you've got like blue or gold label items that kind of has something special to them. So I think there's some things like that that we could add that we'll juice it up a little bit without kind of changing those core mechanics at all.

So we could get like more variation, a little bit more variation in there, a little bit more this, a little bit more of that. So I think that's the obvious path. But yeah, like as far as for, you know, other people, that are not super Castlevania fans? I don't know. It's kind of still a mystery to me. I think we'll try some stuff.

We get some ideas. We want to prototype. We are giving the arcade mode a shot. It's not going to work how I was saying, playing with the range weapons. You know, Castlevania did that with a Circle the Moon magician mode, or it was just like use the subweapons. Yeah, and actually that's on my list

is one of the things I think we could do in the closer to the meantime is adding some extra game modes. Because one of the things I liked about that, They actually had kind of like the luck mode. It was like the thief mode. So I think that's one of the things that we're probably going to add in the shorter term is after you beat the game, you can either play as like thief, mage, or fighter. And then it's like one of your stats is better.

You know, if you're a thief, you get the luck out the wazoo, but everything else is like handicapped. I think that's something good that like gives you more variability for playthroughs, you know, to like really switch it up. So it's not so much even the world that's changing. It's more of your character that's changing. So I think those are good things we can add. you know we'll throw some more content in there um and then i think we're going to try like a wildly different mode that plays much faster so i and i think that that could be a lot of fun i mean even as somebody uh like myself who is um we got an email just from like a random fan the other day but

he called himself an a quote aging gamer and i that's my new term now i'm an aging gamer you know this podcast is for yeah exactly so it's it's for us like 30 sums 40 sums that are like um so it's it's kind of like you know even myself today i find it harder and harder to pick up games um well you know i feel like it's it's kind of like almost mirroring the kids right because the kids have the like the low attention span and they want the immediate gratification they just want to be able to pick up and play something and like immediately get those rewards uh but i also feel like as i get older i want to play long experiences less and less because i have i feel like i have less time for it than i used to you know like i mean when i was a kid i'd play final

Fantasy 7 for you know hundreds of hours or whatever now if I pick up an RPG like I tried to play Final Fantasy 7 again last year I mean I still like it I mean it's got all kinds of problems clunky and whatever else but still love the game but I'm like lucky to make it an hour into it until my attention's somewhere else and I'm just put it down and it's not like I intentionally stop playing it it's just that there's so many things and I mean maybe this is the same problem with kids today is there's so many things now competing for your attention it's insane And I remember back in the day when I was a kid, there we go again, back of my day, you'd get a game and that was it, you know? Like, I mean, you could rent one from the video store for the weekend or whatever, but if you bought a game, that was your game.

You know, it's like you played that game until it was worn out. Yeah, you don't have the captive audience anymore. No. And it's just there's so much to pick from and there's so much information out there. And everything's become so niche. Like, you got niches of niches now. it's just like people are going for those sales you know and it's just like it's hard to even compete you know and I mean it took us years of going to shows and doing interviews and everything we could

to get the name chasm out there and it's like terrifying to me to even like consider like restarting with a new game you know like trying to start back from scratch But yeah, my final question here before we wrap is, this has been six years of your life. So at what point do you draw a line under it and say, done? This is it. This is chasm. this is the package deal now it's time to move on to something different well i don't know like that's kind of my midlife crisis of the past few weeks you know it's kind of like i've been all over the place it's like roller coaster up and down and feeling like a failure and then getting an email somebody saying hey this took me back to 1986 and playing with my best friend like with

christallis or something like it's like it's just uh it's been a total roller coaster as far as like what is this and like uh my wife and i have made so many sacrifices in order to to make this game happen. She's supported me for years. And I don't know, it's just depressing because it's like to the point where it's like I feel like I've given it my all and just kind of failed in a way,

like where it's like, it almost feels like, like I feel like the game itself was a success, like making a product that is like consistent and what I think is fun. But at the same time, it also feels like a commercial failure

as far as just not gaining an audience. And I mean, maybe it's too early to say, you this. It's two weeks old. Yeah, it's two weeks old. But I really feel like our momentum was killed right out of the gate with the bad Steam reviews. Let's just say the Steam reviews were bad and then the critical reviews, like the professional reviews, were middling. You know, they were like, it's good, but, you know. And so I think that like kind of killed any momentum we might have had to kind of catch on with a larger audience. And now it's just kind of like,

okay we'll bring it to more platforms maybe Nintendo will be our crowd maybe Xbox will be our crowd maybe another game mode we could make you know will be our crowd maybe we'll find something but yeah I don't know it's that's like the question right now is um how much further do we push with this because like I said in my situation um I quit my professional programming job six years ago now I've been out of work it's like terrifying for me to even think about going back to work, but at the same time, it's like the longer this goes, the harder it gets. You know, our programmer, Tim, he went back to work two or three years ago because of our budget issues, and he's just been working a day job full time and doing this in the spare time.

And I know he's completely burned out with launch and just being worked from both ends, you know, so I know he's about done with it. You know, so it's just, it's tough, man. And, like, you think you're going to, like, get to the finish line and things are going to work themselves out. But it's just, like, you just find a whole new set of obstacles to go through, you know. And I don't know, maybe a month from now, it'll be out on other platforms and we'll be looking back and laughing, you know, like, saying, like, I can't believe we were thinking about giving up, you know. Or it could be six months from now. I look back at this.

And I'm like, yeah, I should have gave up then and just, like, not even wasted my time and trying to get more budget and do more content and keep pushing on something that was, like, beating a dead horse. you know and like that's kind of the problem with these things especially something creative like games is there's no black or white it's all gray it's like your game might be fun to some it might not be to others you might think it's cool others might not like at least when I was in software your objectives were straightforward it's like we need an application that does XYZ if you do that it's a success you get paid you move on with your life with games it's like you're trying to find that ephemeral thing where it's like oh this caught my imagination and it sparked these memories and the thing was fun and I couldn't put it down it's like what what are these things that like drive people to do that like you know like or to think like that or to bring those emotions like you're just stabbing in the dark hoping you find something and I feel like I'm stabbing in the dark for five six years and I think we hit it on some accounts and then on others we probably missed you know so I don't know to answer your question okay we'll just

just keep pushing and see where things end up. Fair enough. Well, I mean, for my part, I feel like this game really scratches the Igavenia itch that no one has bothered to scratch for a decade. So to me, I've really enjoyed my time with it, and I intend to go finish up my current playthrough as soon as I can. For no other reason, I've got a ton of other things I have to play. But, no, I've really enjoyed it.

Like, the feel of the action really captures that same momentary. and responsiveness that Alacard had, your guy doesn't have the trails behind him. But, like, in every way that really matters, you've got that. So, yeah, on my, you know, on my end, I feel like it was a success. So I hope that you guys do find the audience that you're looking for. Maybe people listening to this podcast will be like, hmm, that sounds interesting.

I have no idea. But at the very least, like, yeah, like you said, maybe the Nintendo audience, who had a decade's worth of Igavannias and now hasn't had that for a decade. aid. Maybe we'll be like, oh, okay. I remember the olden days, the DS, the GBA. But in any case, I appreciate you taking some time out of your day. I'm sure you've got a lot of development problems to worry about. Back to the grindstone. So thank you for taking, you know, an hour or two out of your day to talk about this. Thanks for keeping all this alive, you know? Like, I don't know,

it's just awesome that there's people out there still talking about the games we grew up with, still loving these things, you know, and I don't know. It's just awesome. We appreciate it. Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, you know, for my part, it's something that I love. And so it's always great when I come across a game that manages to capture that in a different way. And I feel KASM does that. So I was glad to get you on the show. In any case, why don't you tell us where we can find you online and where we can find KASM.

Yeah, sure. So number one top spot to go is KASM game.com. That's K-H-A-S-M-Game.com. You can check out the trailer on there, some screenshots. We're also on the Twitters and the Facebooks. The game's available now on Steam, so you can look it up on there. And then also on PSN, so PS4 and Vita. It's crossplay, cross by, cross everything.

So those are the main spots. Yeah, I've been playing the Vita version, and it's really solid, except that there's a little bit of like a hiccup whenever I unlock a trophy, but that's just Vita. Yeah, that's just Vita. Actually, the PS4 is the same too because it takes that screenshot when you get it. Oh, that's right, yes. Yeah, I don't know if Vita does. that. But yeah, on PSP.

It doesn't take a screenshot. It's just, it's like, whoa, networking. That's crazy. There's things happening here. Oh, my goodness. My old bones. Yeah. But no, great stuff. And as for Retronauts, you can find Retronauts at Retronauts.com on iTunes at the Podcast One network. And, of course, we're supported through Patreon, patreon.com slash Retronauts. That keeps the show going. Subscribe and you get the show a week early with no advertisements. And at a higher bit which is cool. And myself, Jeremy Parrish, can be found various places online, but you can probably find me making my bad dad jokes at Twitter as game spite. But even though I'm not actually very spiteful. Anyway, so that wraps it up for this episode. Check back in a week for another

episode. And in the meantime, I'm going to go play some more casual. Enjoy it. The Moller report. I'm Ed Donahue with an AP News Minute. President Trump was asked at the White House if special counsel Robert Mueller's Russia investigation report should be released next week when he will be out of town. I guess from what I understand, that will be totally up to the Attorney General. Maine Susan Collins says she would vote for a congressional resolution disapproving of President Trump's emergency declaration to build a border wall, becoming the first Republican senator to publicly back it. In New York, the wounded supervisor of a police detective

killed by friendly fire was among the mourners attending his funeral. Detective Brian Simonson was killed as officers started shooting at a robbery suspect last week. Commissioner James O'Neill was among the speakers today at Simonson's funeral. It's a tremendous way to bear, knowing that your choices will directly affect the lives of others. The cops like Brian don't shy away from it. It's the very foundation of who they are and what they do. The robbery suspect and a man, police say acted as his lookout have been charged with murder. I'm Ed Donahue.

Thank you.