Retronauts - Retronauts Episode 222: Sonic Mania's Classic Roots

Episode Date: May 27, 2019

Jeremy Parish, Bob Mackey, Ray Barnholt, and Caty McCarthy look to the present to talk about a game that succeeds by looking to the past: Sega's 2017 hit Sonic Mania. See, we CAN say nice things about Sonic.

This weekend Retronauts, The Hedgehogs Dilemma. Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Retronauts. I am Jeremy Parrish. With me here this week in the studio, we have such luminaries as... Hey, it's Bob Mackie. And Squirrel Boy, where are your barnhole? Squirrel Boy.

Yeah. Well, please don't actually call me that. Okay, I won't. That was just for humor. And finally. And Katie McCarthy. I'm back for the third time. Third time, yeah.

Sonic Adventure. And, yeah, you've been on here to talk about what before? Sonic Adventure, so back for another Sonic episode. And we talked about remakes and stuff. Oh, that's right. That's right. Yes. Oh, yeah.

All right. yeah, we're not trying to like, you know, typecast you or anything, but this is an episode about Sonic Games, and as I discovered while prepping for this episode, I have zero aptitude for Sonic Games. It's just like a blind spot in my soul or something. I don't know. I like them in theory, but then I sit down to play then, and I'm just like, I can't make this work.

Like my fingers aren't working the way that they're supposed to. What do you have problem with? The running, the jumping? Yeah. All of it. The standing and the spinning and the, yeah, it's all bad. I don't know. Not that the games are bad, just I'm bad at them.

Is it his momentum? Is that what throws you off maybe? No. It's when he doesn't, it's when he's not getting going. All right. Like in this game, the particular fine platforming really killed me. Oh, yeah. The first part in chemical plant zone where it floods and there's like these, you know,

those boxes that rotate around each other and create like moving platforms and carecases, that is just like, it is a, like I said, it's a blind spot for me. I can't deal with that. But I recognize that this is a me problem, not a game problem, because the game itself that we're discussing this week is a very, very good game. It is Sonic Mania. And that is not an old game. It is not within the 10-year, you know, outside the 10-year time limit of retronauts.

But this is another legacy episode where we're going to talk about how this very, very The classic looking game ties in with the legacy that it upholds. And I would say, you know, compared to Mega Man 11, which we tackled yesterday in a session, Sonic Mania holds up extremely well. I think it does an amazing job of basically taking everything that people love about Sonic from the classic days and kind of pushing aside all the stuff that maybe wasn't so good and just like getting to the heart of what makes Sonic great and then kind of amplifies that and makes it even more impressive. looking, and, you know, I think I've used this description before, but it's a game that plays the way you remember the classics playing, even though when you go back to the classics, you're like, oh, these are kind of rough. But this is like all your good memories distilled and crystallized into a video game, a modern, fresh video game that has two versions now, so it's even twice as much game for me to be not able to play well. But, yeah, I really think Sonic Mania is great, and I'm sad that I suck at it so badly

because I want to be able to do more with it. Well, there's another thing, which is that, you know, I'm just glad that there's a new Sonic game that most everyone is cool with. I mean, you'd have to be one of those sarcastic jerks from who does a retro game podcast and not like Sonic Mania. So who would that be?

I don't know, some tall guy. Well, that could be anyone. Yeah, who knows. So, Bob, you're a tall guy. guy who does retro gaming podcast. Well, I think of Sonic Media. I am a jerk, but I do like this game. Okay, there you go.

So I don't even know who you're talking about, right? Yeah. You know, those guys. Leave it to the commenters. Okay. I do like this game a lot, and I feel like, well, I did my Sonic episode, and I got a lot of hate over it, and it's okay to disagree with me. I'm perfectly fine with that.

But I feel like this alleviates all the problems I had with a lot of the older 2D Sonic games, and that it's not as... It's not as punishing. It's not those death traps. I feel like they don't make you repeat a lot of things if you get them wrong. I just felt like it was a little... There wasn't as much friction for me going through this game as there was after, like, with after Sonic 3. Like Sonic 2 is sort of the perfect Sonic for me, even though it has its problems.

But I feel like this is like, like we said before, it's the ideal 2D Sonic experience. And Katie, you reviewed Sonic Mania for U.S. Gamer, right? Yeah. Did you also do Plus? I did Plus also. Okay. So I played it this year, and I played a little bit last night to get, like, get to re-quainted. Yeah, and then, yeah, I reviewed it at launch for PS4.

Okay. I think you gave it a 4 out of 5? Only a 4. Yeah, I mean, it's good. I'm in favor of using the full review scale. A lot of people are like, if it's good, it's a 4.5 out of 5, and I'm like, if it reaches over 4, it has to be, like, really, really good for me. I'm there with you. Yeah, I think we all are.

I think the problem is that only the writers are the ones who are okay using it. Yeah, but yeah, I think song may is great I think for better and for worse, it's like very, very faithful and that still has those frustrations you remember of like vertical platforming not being good of like the moving stuff like you mentioned before and there's like bosses that are very annoying but it feels like an old Sonic game which is like more than most like games that try to call back to like the glory days of their past can say

like even Sonic Generations is like trying to like capture that old like, side-scrolling glory, but it's, like, not good. It's, like, not a great game. Yeah, I mean, this game, I have not played all the way through, but I did play Sonic Forces all the way through for review. What are you doing? I got paid for it, so it's okay. Like, I was willing to suffer for a weekend for a few hundred dollars,

but, yeah, this, like, comparing this game to Sonic Forces is really sort of, illuminating because the games do a lot of the same things. It's just one of them does them extremely well and one of them does it poorly. Like, you know, the running battle you have in Sonic Mania against Metal Sonic, like there's a few sequences like that in Sonic forces, and they all suck so much, and I hate them. And just thinking back on them makes me wish I weren't alive. And in Sonic Mania, it's like fun, and, you know, it's challenging,

but it's very fast-paced and energetic and it feels like it's never out of control, whereas Sonic Forces, it's just like you switch the camera behind Sonic and all of a sudden it feels really rough. And I don't know, it's really impressive how even though you have a more restrictive camera view in this 2D side-scrolling approach, then you can't see things coming up as well as you can in 3D, it still plays better and feels better and it's more fun. That's where I stand on Sonic Forces. that that's fine

And you see like the little bit because like trying to capture like fan service with like the creative character thing and you can tell it's like trying to do sort of the making fans happy thing that Sonic Mania does

but it's not successful Yeah Sonic Mania just does it through gameplay and like a genuine understanding of what do Sonic fans enjoy as opposed to you know like shoehorned in features and executive saying what do we think Sonic fans enjoy

we think that they will want this Yeah, and I guess that is kind of, you know, the sort of thing, you know, the distinguishing feature at the heart of Sonic Mania is that it was created by fans to some degree. I don't know if maybe Ray, you could shed some light on that, and I feel like you know the backstory here. Yes, it was created by fans. Okay, I was thinking maybe you could say a few more sentences. Oh, I'm sorry. Okay, sure. It was made by Sonic ROM hackers.

Exactly. And that's actually very remarkable. I can't think of another instance of a corporation going to people and saying, hey, you've done some IP violations. Could you come and make an official game for us? Well, I think the way it exactly came about, it's a little bit different. Not exactly a byproduct of ROM hacking. But, yeah.

So, like, yeah, the main mind behind it was Christian Whitehead, who went by the handled taxman on the Sonic community. community forums and such. And so he originally had made a retro engine, which is like a 2D engine for making games on the PC and such. And he used that to make, to basically port Sonic CD to like iPhone. And he like showed that to Sega on Twitter, amazingly enough, another amazing part of it. And then after a while they were like, hey, you want to just make that an official product?

And Sonic CD on iPhone game. I didn't realize that that was how that happened. Like I knew about the Sonic CD remake, but I didn't realize that he pitched a, to Sega over social media and they were like why not hire this guy? Twitter or like the Sega blog or something like that yeah, but either way, yeah, that was his pitch and so Sonic Steve became Sonic 1 on iPhone

and Sonic 2 on iPhone until finally they were like, yeah, you can go ahead and make a full-fledged sequel-ish Sonic game if you want. He's also joined by another guy named Stealth his name John, geez, Simon

Thorley was his name or Tomley. Something like that, sure. Edit in my correct print and pronunciation. But, yeah, and two of them basically were helped by different musicians and sprite artists and stuff to finally go ahead and make Sonic Mania after a couple of years of development. Yeah, I mean, there's still an internal element to Sonic Mania. It's not just done by like two guys in their living room or something.

It was still supervised by, by, oh my Lord, I'm bad with names today. The main Sonic producer man. Yeah, I can't remember his name. I'm a Sonic fan today. Oh, man. No, but I mean, the Sega internal team definitely... Isuka, excuse me. Yeah, that's it.

And there's a name for the American Sonic Group now. I can't remember what it is, but it's like... It's not Sonic Team. It's something else. I'm not familiar with what you mean. Okay, cool. I was just reading about it the other day, so I've totally got everything. It's been a week.

Oh, okay. There used to be Sonic Team USA. No, it has another name to it. But, yeah, well, we really, we really prep for this one. Great. I was just here to talk about the game, not like paperwork. I'm sorry. It was made using computers.

Okay. I know that. Do you know what kind? Was it like, you know, Apple 2GS or something? They're probably of the Mac persuasion. Well, if I may just steer it back to like the interesting point, which is that, yeah, this did basically come from people who were basically spending a lot of time doing rom hacks and just fan games ground up from the ground up fan games for Sonic.

which has, you know, a rich history in and of itself. People have ripped apart all of the canonical Sonic games back and forth and been doing that for years and still continue to. And, you know, the Sonic community, the fan community definitely has documented, like, exhaustively, even, you know, just little fragments of things that are left in the code and so forth. And, you know, the genocide zone and things like that. Yeah, exactly. I think part of that was helped by the fact that, you know, prototypes of Sonic games leaked out more often than, say, you know,

Mario Games did. So that sort of like energize the community, I think. And it's like a weird side note. Like Sega supported ROM hacks in a different way on Steam, which is through the Genesis and Megadrive collection, through the Steam Workshop, you can basically have mods, quote unquote, which are basically ROM hacks that you can upload. And so people just do that too. So it's a, Sega had these elements to them that are pretty cool sometimes.

Fan support. So how would you describe Sonic Mania in terms of like a reflection of the franchise. This is a question for the room. I mean, that's kind of like all. That was kind of like my big critique was that I went into it

not expecting it to be so many throwbacks and it's like 12 levels overall and I think eight of the zones are just from past games. And I guess as someone who's played most Sonic games, I was like, man, I'm a little tired of this. But I feel like for people that haven't played

like many, like Sonic. games like decade or whatever. They're probably like, oh, wow, I remember like chemical things. Green Hill Zone. Yeah, you know. Yeah, I was really surprised when I started up the game, a new game for the first time, and was thrown pretty much immediately into Green Hill Zone. I was like, wow, this is just Green Hill Zone. But it's also just, it's their Green Hill Zone, right? Yeah, I mean, it's not like an old map. No, it's, it's kind of a remix and, you know. That's the same with all the, um, classicish stages in the game. Yeah. And what they've, they've done with these stages, at least from my

perspective, it feels like they've really taken the sort of exploratory element that was in some of the Sonic games and really just run with it. And, you know, the levels here are much bigger and they're not just, you know, longer in terms of the horizontal length, but also they're much, they have more tiers of height and more levels that you can travel across and more opportunities to kind of jump to other tracks. And, you know, you always have tails as a companion and the core or the basic mode and tails can help you reach other areas

by doing his little tail flutter thing. So there is more kind of awareness of verticality in space so it's not so much of just like find the optimal path and run through. There's a lot of exploration, a lot of, you know, hunting for secrets. I would say

this kind of feels like Sonic's Super Mario World, if that makes sense. You know, Super Mario World kind of slowed down the action of Mario games a bit and we're like, hey, poke around in corners, look around, try to find hidden exits,

try to find, you know, all the things we've tucked away. Yeah. And, yeah, I feel like it does that more effectively than, like, Sonic 3, which had kind of an element of, you know, moving around and using alternate traversal, but not, I don't think, as effectively as mania. I think Sonic 3 and Knuckles did have a lot of verticality in stages, but that was like... Well, yeah, when you add in the Knuckles, yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean, that was the first, those first games were made around three characters, right?

Sonic Tales and Knuckles. but you now have a game made by people who have, you know, studied those games for years and years and have pretty much, I think, even better design those levels around those three characters. Yeah, I mean, it's, it is refreshing to go and play like Green Hill Zone designed, not just for Sonic to play, but, you know, to play as Sonic and Tales, or in the case of Encore as Sonic and Ray and Mighty. Yeah. And, you know, all of these characters have different capabilities,

and open up new possibilities and, you know, just playing around. Like, I was not good at finding secrets and stuff, but I saw them. I was like, wow, there's a giant ring hidden in some alcove. I have no idea how to hell to get there, but I sure want to figure it out.

It's intriguing. And maybe that's what this game does better than any other Sonic that I've played. I mean, yeah, some of them did do that. Like, Sonic 3 kind of had points in that, but I think it's more obvious in many of it. Oh, yeah, that is definitely a hidden thing. I should figure it out.

I mean, it doesn't play, like a Metroidvania at all, but it does that thing where it's like, there's something and you can't get to it now because of the choices you made and traveling through this level, but it's there, keep that in mind for next time

because you want to find this. It's going to be cool. And yeah, that's, I think that's, to me at least, you know, someone who likes exploring in games, that is the real appeal of mania is that I'm like, there's stuff out there that I need to find. Like, this game is really going to reward me

for poking around. And I feel like, you know, I wanted to do that on the original Sonic, but it's kind of an unforgiving game and, you know, there's no real, like, built-in continue system.

You kind of have to earn your continues and they're very precious. And so I feel like I get kind of punished for just taking the time to poke around. Whereas this game, it doesn't have that.

It's like, yeah, if you run out of lives, it's fine, just start the level over. And so there's a lot more opportunities to just, you know, pause and explore. And oops,

I shouldn't have gone there well, I'm dead now, but, you know, it's not that big a deal. I can keep going. Yeah. Unless you want to get all the emeralds and stuff, then you have to go through these special stages, which are a little bit more punishing. Why do they do that? I mean, it is a critic hits collection, but the special stages are, for the most part, the Sonic 3 special stages. Well, no, there's the, yeah, there's like the goal post stages, which are blue sphere, but there's the actual proper special stages, which are the 3D run-along stages where you do have to get the emerald through those.

Those are better. I just, I always think I can do the Sonic 3 ones, but I can't actually finish one of them. I'll be like... Oh, no, yeah. No, I'm terrible at them. I wish they would just be a better version of those because they're just as hard as they always were. But they are not, I don't think, crucial to completing the game the proper way. They're just for collecting medals for unlocking other things, mostly.

So if you, yeah, you have to go through the 3D special stages if you actually want to get the proper ending or whatever. What do the metals do? So I'm someone who didn't, like, look up all the details on this game because... I mean, you know, part of it's... It's a glory and part of its unlocking things. Okay. But, I mean, like, what kind of stuff are you unlocking when you do that? Let's see.

There is, geez. I think when you do unlock, like, the Buyubu mini game. Right. That's, like, the big thing. You unlock, like, different modes and stage selects. Oh, yeah, debug mode. You can get, like, a proper debug mode. You can just toggle on and off, and it works like the old games do.

Oh, cool. Just cool things like that. I'll never see that ever. Different, yeah, different elements of fan service. besides the obvious So kind of drilling down into different layers of fandom Like

Yeah, yeah The Puyo Puyo is like a fun thing Kind of hidden within the main game Excuse me, Mean Bean, I should have been Oh, it's okay You mean Kirby's avalanche? No, no, no, here it's meanby. Oh, sorry.

Talking about something else, darling. But yeah, the debug thing is definitely for the ROM hacker types who are like, I've got to find all the secrets I need to know about all the things that were taken out of Sonic 2 before launch. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm not a ROM hacker.

Magger type, but I still love the debug modes even in the old games. It's just like, oh, yeah, I can basically, like, construct a level, sort of by, like, stamping these sprites all over the place and have fun with it, yeah. I made, like, a whole issue of scroll about that. Like, the cover of it was just, like, a debug mode. That's right. Play or play. All right, so let's talk a little bit about the sort of the history of Sonic leading up to this.

Like the, like, what were each of the original games about? We kind of touched on that a little bit, talking about, like, Sonic 3 and Knuckles and that sort of thing. But I feel like just an overview of the 2D Sonic games. We haven't done just an episode that's just Sonic 2D games. We have. I did it, and I went to hiding in five months. That's why I'm here. I thought it was like specific to one or two games.

No, I just covered all one to Sonic and Knuckles. Okay. CD wasn't part of that. Okay, well, CD, I feel, is pretty relevant to this, especially the encore mode. I feel like Encore mode is very much, I don't know, it feels to me a lot like Sonic CD where you have the alternate versions of stages, like past future, that kind of thing. Am I hallucinating here? No, no, that makes sense. Okay.

But, yeah, Sonic, the Hedgehog, 1991, was pretty much the most straightforward of the Sonic games. Like, it was, how many, like six worlds with a few stages apiece. Is that right? And, yeah, replaying that recently on the Sega Ages series, I was reminded that there are some levels that are very, very fun and some levels that are very, very not fun. Like, you get underwater, and it stops being. enjoyable. Am I alone in feeling that way? No, everybody hates Labyrinth Zone. The music is

really good. Yeah, but I feel like that level is just like a big screw you. And it kind of comes early in the game for being so hateful. Oh yeah, it is kind of early but I think there have been worse water stages in Sonic. In Sonic? No, like ones, yeah. Like following ones, I think chemical plant, which

has parts of it in there. And even Hydro City Zone in Sonic 3 can, it's fun. It does move along better, but it can still be annoying when you get stuck or forget where to go. So I'm not alone in being frustrated by the moving platforms in chemical plant zone. No.

Okay. It's the worst. I don't mind them. I think it's kind of a classic platforming trope, really. But my whole thing is that I've, I kind of am sick of chemical plant in general because I just, I've been gorged on Sonic 2 for like 20 years. It's just like, it just doesn't, whenever that music and visuals come up, I just kind of get sick. It's not, it's nobody's fault but my own.

I'm just saying not a fan of chemical plant. So you were saying, Katie. Oh, yeah. Like, I just feel like Sonic is not very good with vertical in general, like vertical platforming. Like, it's just not those games, like, forte. So, like, in the sections where it, like, requires you to, like, jump up two platforms

and you might get squished if you, like, get in a certain spot. And that stuff I found really annoying, but also I was, like, faithful. Because I was like, man, I remember getting annoyed by this back of the day. It's faithful. Well, and I think you still have to strike the balance. Yeah. Because, like, you know, you can't just have Sonic run right all the time. Yeah, yeah, sure.

You have these parts where you have to, like, finally control him and jump the right way. Yeah, I don't know. The first time I got to that in Sonic Mania, like, I burned through all of my lives. And I was like, is there something wrong with me? So I'm happy to hear that, no, people have trouble with that because I was just like, I thought I was good at platformers, but now I'm dead and I don't understand. I get it. Yeah. But for me, it's ingrained.

I'm afraid. Yeah, it's not a big deal. Okay. Yeah, I understand for sure. But, yeah, like I was saying before we started this recording, I have no aptitude for Sonic games. I just, I'm terrible at them, and I don't know why. I mean, they're not very, like, precision-focused. Like, I feel like Mario and, like, even, like, Metroid-type games.

Like, those are all about precision. That's what I was saying to Jeremy, because, like, not. Sonic's whole momentum deal can miss people up. Especially in those vertical sections where you're moving slow and also jumping, I feel like once you get Sonic in the air, it's like landing a plane to get him down in the right spot. You're just like constantly like touching bat, like left and right, just sort of just like maneuver him to make sure he falls in the right area.

It doesn't feel as reliable as like a Mario jump. Right. Like a jump from like a jump from Sonic not moving is just like kind of difficult to like maneuver with. So yeah, I don't know. Like Ray, what would you say is the correct way to play a Sonic game? Because there are places where the game slows things down and you don't really have a choice. like you can't just keep moving. You know, you kind of have to get a feel for the rhythm of when you need to slow down

and when you need to be more precise. Yeah, well, I said this the last time when we were talking about classic game, the classic Sonic games is like you can't go into it expecting a Mario game at all. You do have to literally shift your mind a bit and realize that you're controlling a different character who moves differently with a different momentum. And that, yeah, he goes fast, but not all the time. And you need to be careful sometimes. I mean, it's the same as, I don't know, drive you in an F1 car.

I haven't ever done that. Well, you know, it's a real fast thing. Or you can play Yoshi's Island, which is Nintendo's answer to Sonic. That was my theory. Is it? I really think so. Did you go over this before? In the episode, yeah.

It's about a character who, there's no run button. He starts off very slow, and starts moving faster. Oh, yeah. But then they give you a way to correct weird jumps in the air. So I feel like that was their concession. And also, the levels are very similar, that they're very dense and full of secrets. And Yoshi has his, like, struggle float, which is a little bit like Tales Flying. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I feel like this game tries to do more to give you a little more fine control over Sonic. Which game exactly, sorry? Mania, mania, mania. I mean, you've got, like, the elemental shield. Are those from previous games? Yeah, yeah, yeah, from three, basically. Okay, see, I bounced right off of three the first time I played it and never went back to it. Oh, man.

So is that why, like, Mania seems so unfamiliar to me because I just, I don't know that game? Probably. It does have a few stages from three, yeah. Mm-hmm. Elements. So let's talk about the elemental shields and, you know, kind of what the point of those is. What is the point of those? Well, the bubble shield lets you basically go underwater without dying, without losing the air.

The lightning shield attracts rings. And the fire shield just, you know, protect you from fire and also lets you shoot forward as a fireball. Okay. So, yeah. I see. They're not exactly like Mario Powers, but, you know. No, that's fine. I wouldn't want them to be, like, Mario Powers.

I'm nuts. If Sonic were, like, shooting, you know, fireballs, that'd be bad. But, I mean, you know, Ray the Squirrel controls a lot like... Yeah, speaking of Mario world. Holy shit, yeah, he is Cape Mario for sure. Yeah, yeah, like, I had never played as Ray before, and... What game is he from? Is he from Chaotics or something?

Him and Mighty are from Sega Sonic the Hedgehog, which is the arcade game. Oh, okay, that's why I've never played as him before. Yeah, well, there you go. That's the trackball game? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, like, I really enjoyed Encore way more than the... the standard game, because it's just like the new characters in there are really different and really change things up a lot.

Yeah, On-Core mode, yeah, it's really fun because it also, like, it lets you, like, collect the characters and switch between them and stuff. Mm-hmm. The banging started a random time on a Sunday. It's 2.30, time to hit that pipe. So, yeah, let's talk a little more about Ray and the Smirley and Mighty Amardillo. I'm talking about me too if you want. Okay, yeah, sure. So what's your relationship with Ray the Squirrel, Ray?

Well, I knew him all ever since that Sonic arcade game first showed up. So, like, I'd been familiar with him quite a while. Did that arcade game come to the U.S.? Yeah, very limited. Like, you know, in the West it was pretty limited. But, I mean, I never played it back then, but I'm saying when I saw it in magazines, I was like, oh, it's a character named Ray, and he's blonde. How about that?

That's what he stuck with me. It's like I'm looking in a mirror. Yeah. Yeah. And then they kind of, you know, and Mighty, the Armadillo, who kind of looks like Sonic with just like, you know, a red smooth back, essentially. Yeah, he doesn't really look like an armadillo. Yeah. I mean, having grown up in Texas and seen a lot of them mostly down on the road, I'm like, this does not. Well, does Sonic look like a hedgehog? Does Knuckles look like an echidna?

You know, I haven't, I didn't see a lot of echidnas growing up. I think Tails is the only one actually looks like the animal. That is true. That is very true. And then he has two tails, but yeah. But then they sort of abandoned Ray and then they brought back Mighty for Knuckles Chaos. Okay, that's why I was thinking of X. Yeah. But then Ray was left behind, and then they just sort of made, they appeared as a, like,

a missing poster in Sonic Generations. Like, there's a level there where you can see, like. How cheeky. Yeah. So Ray wasn't even in Sonic Heroes. No. No, like, no, they changed the chaotic. They even got rid of Mighty by that time because, like, the chaotic team was just three people's

knuckles and, uh, SBO and, no, I'm sorry, it was Charmy, SBO, and Vector, the crocodile. Those are the Chaotics team now Right, yeah What game Were those guys from Originally? Chaotics

Okay Yeah How many characters Were in Chaotics? That was the 32X one Right, yeah So like no one ever played that So you got Knuckles

You got Charmy You got Vectory You got Aspio and Mighty And then the robot The Idiots Who nobody likes Right The bomb robot

And beta or whatever Kappa gamma I don't know No it's some Or some Greek letter I think the bomb one's I literally called bomb or something Nice

Yeah so I am extremely ill-informed about the Sonic series. It's terrible. I'm incredibly a poor choice to lead this podcast, and yet here I am talking about Sonic games. How about that? But one of the things that I do

find interesting is the sort of graphical fidelity to this game because it's more than just like a Genesis game. It's not a direct port of the Genesis graphics. Everything is way more animated. There's a lot more frames of animation. It's doing stuff that the Genesis couldn't necessarily do

real pixel artists. I got some real pixel artists. They got Paul Veer, who had been doing stuff for Vlambeer games. So he's a really good pixel artist and animator. Yeah, he worked on one of those character sprites. But, yeah, I think the intended graphical style was to be like, what if this was a Saturn game? Like, what if this had a 32-bit level graphics and, you know, graphic fidelity, like you said? And, you know, that didn't carry through, I think, to the marketing

because they basically made all these retro, you know, the reverse covers or, like, Genesis box covers. and then there was the special edition with Sonic on the giant Mega Drive. Well, I mean, a lot of the material is from Sonic, you know, Genesis games. Yeah, but I can understand that. Well, also, yeah, no one really would have remembered the Saturn as fondly as the Genesis. Right, yeah. I get it.

Yeah, it's big a footprint. You can definitely see it in the game that there is kind of a 32-bit quality to it. I mean, there's a Saturn control pad icon in, like, the controls menu and such. So they added new animations to the characters that I've seen in the game when playing it. Did they base the sprites that we see in the game on any existing sprites? Well, yes and no. I mean, there was some, like, Sonic 2 prototypes. There were certain ways that they drew Sonic running with, like, his spinny,

I call him, roll pool legs that they kind of use in this game in certain points. So some things are kind of like little teeny homages to those prototype things and sprites that people enjoyed but never really got to see in the official games. Okay. I couldn't tell if the sprites were unique. or if they just... They are largely unique, yeah. They just, yeah, they base some of those things on there.

Yeah, and of course, yeah, lots of added nice animations. Right, yeah, someone wrote in the notes that it's the... Or someone, I thought, said the graphics were somewhere between Genesis and Saturn, but isn't that 32X? I guess so. Yeah, I mean, yeah. Like, graphically, how does it compare to Chaotics? Again, you know, I've never played Chaotic.

You didn't play Chaotics? For some reason. Where were you in 1994? I know, right? I was not spending my money on a 32X. Theiotics has such a wild art style that's not really anything. It's closer to Sonic CD, really. So, I mean, comparing it to Mania's art style is a bit disingenuous, I would say.

And it doesn't really have as much animation either. It's just, you know, based on the same amount of animation as the other Sonic games. So I wouldn't call it as, you know, I wouldn't compare it too much to Chaotics. It is really its own thing because it does have, like, you know, you think about these 32-bit games, like games like Astall, which is also a Sega platformer with a really great art and animation to it. That's the sort of, I think, comparison that you could draw with Sonic Mania.

It's like, this is the kind of 32-bit level that we could see there. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting to compare it to Saturn art because I feel like, yeah, it does have that level of animation, but aesthetically, it doesn't look like a Saturn game would have in terms of, like, Sprite design. I mean, it does very much feel like it's cut in the 16-bit mold,

and I feel like, you know, once they went on to the 32-bit generation, there was sort of a mindset that we can't make our games look, you know, just like more fluid. There is 16-bit games because that would be unacceptable. People would think, oh, well, why would I buy the system? So, you know, characters were bigger and, you know, there were more like, I feel like art was a bit more, like you said, kind of chaotic, like in chaotic, where it's, you know, just like we have new

capabilities and not a lot of restraint yet, and we haven't figured out necessarily what looks good together. I mean, that's the thing about that, that's interesting about mania is that it does, I mean, in terms of character proportions and overall aesthetic design, it is very 16-bit. It's just like no 16-bit console could have done that. Yeah. It's just like, you know, I mean, you know, the Saturn was not really built to make 3D games because they kind of slapped on those two processors and such.

So, I mean, if we imagine the Saturn as the 2D powerhouse, it was supposed to be, then yeah, I think we could have something more like Sonic Mania. I think also, but if you ask me, and this is just me being fantasy fanboy, if this game really did exist for the Saturn, I think the art would have employed more like pre-rendered sort of things in it. Yeah, I think they were moving that way with Sonic 3 Sprite does look a little pre-rendery. It's not quite there yet, but I could tell like there's more shading on it. And of course, with the intro with this weird CGI. I hate a Sonic 3 Sprite, by the way. Yeah, okay.

So maybe that's what strikes me as being 16 bit about this because this game does have a lot of, especially for Sonic Sprite. where you see the character rotate and move through many different, like, you know, spin around many different axes. Like when he's doing corkscrews and stuff, he has so many frames of animation. And yet at the same time, it doesn't have that pre-rendered plastic look to it. It does look entirely hand-drawn, but it has the consistency that you expect from renderers. And so it kind of is this unique creation in its own right. That's what I've been trying to put my finger on.

And I think that's, that really gets to it. It has the sort of solidity and consistency you expect from the 32-bit era of Sprites, but it doesn't have that sort of dated plastic sheen that, you know, oh, Donkey Kong Country was cool. Katie, you've been very quiet. Do you have any thoughts on any of this? I mean, like, earlier we were talking about how Sonic Mania plays, how we remember Sonic games playing. And I feel like it looks that way, too. But then if you look back, it's like, oh, it doesn't. Actually, it looks way better.

which is, I think, a good thing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, playing this side-by-side on Switch with Sega Ages Sonic the Hedgehog, you're like, oh, yes, Sonic for, you know, Sonic 1 was very cool in its time, but it is kind of, you know, choppy and sort of kind of low-color detail and so forth, like the Sonic, you know, the... In the animations choppy? Yeah, yeah, like, you know, it's only, there was only so much storage space. I mean, I know that they, they, they utilize. like every bit of data available on the ROM and, you know, squeezed as much out of that as they could.

But, yeah, like, certainly, you know, in terms of animation, there's just not as much of it. And like I said, the color detail is a lot lower. There's not as much background animation. Like the, especially in Encore mode, again, in this, like, you know, I guess because they're, I think you start out in the jungle from Sonic and Knuckles, right? So, you know, they're kind of. Or Sonic 3, yeah.

I mean, it's the same thing, right? At this point, yeah. To me, it doesn't matter. Okay. Please inform me how I'm wrong. Yeah, like, I guess because they were working from, you know, an even more advanced spec, they were like, we got to blow that up. So you've got, like, just all kinds of animation in the background in that.

And it's just gorgeous to watch. It reminds me a lot of Rayman on Saturn, but better. And not as, yeah, you know, Rayman has its own kind of look. And if you like it, you like it. I remember, you know, being very impressed with the animation in Rayman, but being like, I don't know about the drawings here. It's, like, very technically good and kind of leaves me cold. But Mania does a good job of hitting that technical level of impressiveness while still also having a really nice warm art style. And, yeah, like, I really want to spend more time with Encore mode because I haven't played as much of that as the, you know, the standard Sonic Mania.

but I just really love everything there, like the color palette changes and the way they've kind of remixed the levels. I realize that's kind of a problem with this game. You know, like Katie was saying, you have eight levels out of 12 that are remixes, and then you get to encore, and it's like remixes of remixes.

And it is nice that they tweak the levels so that they take advantage of Ray and Mighty and the things that they can do. But at the same time, I'm like, well, it's green hills zone again, and it's sunset here, but it's still green, and there's still hills. Yeah, well, I think it's better to come,

calling it Sonic Mania, too, for sure. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that I think calling it Plus was definitely the way to go. They should have called it Sonic Mania CD. No? Okay. Sonic on a CD, Ray. With Becky. CD is a place.

That was a deep cut, Bob. Yeah. Thank you. Should we talk about Sonic CD? Do we have space for it now? Yeah, go for it. Yeah. Because we didn't get to on the last classic show. Well, by God.

I don't remember any of that conversation anyway. Yeah. Like everything, I just have no aptitude for Sonic podcast, apparently. I had so many insults to get in. I couldn't put a CD. All right, well, let's go for it. I was being nice. I'm just kidding.

I'm misrepresenting myself. All I know about Sonic CD is there's time travel and butt rock. No, not butt rock. Spencer Nielsen would not rock a book. It's beyond butt rock. How dare you? Save that for some AM2 game coming out. Buttrock is a compliment in my universe.

Well, I mean, don't you want to rock butts? Come on. It's more ass jazz. Yes. No, that's smart. Marvel versus Capcoms, too. Oh, I kill me. It is closer to as jazz.

I think the Sonic CD is definitely not perfect, but it is like the greatest idea of what a CD game was at that point in time, I think, because you had a game that was not a canonical sequel, but like a side game that had really impressive graphics and, like, crazy music in it, and that was like, oh, yeah, this is how, like, a CD game can be with like a classic franchise. It can be like expanded to something greater. That's what Sonic CD feels like to me.

It is, like I said, it's not perfect. Take all the moments of slowing down and other Sonic games and it really kind of overloads on those. I think it focuses too much on exploration when you don't really need to. Levels are not all designed for that. Some of them are just way too huge, for example. But I think, you know, the audio-visual presentation

It's just really, really top-notch, despite being made by not Yuji Naka in his team. Yeah, Sonic CD was kind of like a transitional game, wasn't it, between Sonic 1 and 2? And Sonic 2 was done by STI, right? Yeah, by Yu-G-Nocka in America. Right. And Sonic CD was made back in Japan. Okay. Okay, so it was like the folks who worked on Sonic 1 minus Naka?

I'm not sure exactly. Or they just called it like some random second stringers? Because, you know, the whole thing was that Naka left Sega. because he was upset, but then Mark Serney brought him into America. So, like, he got a different team there. So that was, I'm sure there's a lot of people who worked on Sonic 1, worked on Sonic CD, but, yeah.

But, you know, the idea with Sonic CD was the time travel concept. You were, like, traveling back and forth into, like, the ruined future and the distant past. And so you had, like, multiple versions of each stage. Yeah. So you had past, present, future, but then you also had to make a good future

to get, like, the best ending. Yeah. And I'm guessing that involved chaos emeralds? It involved chaos emeralds, but also Metal Sonic, because you had to, like, defeat or destroy these generator things that are laid around in the past, which would then create a good future. Like, Dr. Robotnik had Metal Sonic do his dirty work for him and such, and got it.

Yeah, you had to go and hunt down these little generator things and destroy them in the past. Okay. But it's a semi-complicated system layered over Sonic gameplay, where it's like you need rings to go to different time period. and you to find the right gates to go to the time period? No, you need to hit the gates and then build up speed and then keep that speed for a good amount of time or else you lose the momentum to travel.

Right, but when you hit 88.1 miles per hour, you're going to see some serious time. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. You see a wonderful rainbow-colored loading screen and sonic travels back or forward into it. And the funny thing about the music, by the way, is that two out of three of those time periods

are Red Book Audio, but the past is always done in the, in the Genesis PCM. Hmm. So it's very weird. I mean, is that meant to be, like, a deliberate statement? Like, here's primitive music and here's speed music? Maybe. I have no idea what the actual intent was.

I feel like future music would work better with the Genesis FM synthesis, though. To me, the Genesis always sounded like, 30 years later, maybe. Here's our robot overlord. My guess is, like, we only have this much space, but here's a way we can make it clever. Yeah, probably. That feels like more of the choice there. And, of course, had the special stage where, you know,

I think all the special stages in Sonic games all tried to, like, be as 3D as possible. And here in Sonic CD you have like this flat sort of Mode 7 Mario Kart track where you have to run around and, again, just to jump up and destroy these kind of robot things. It's most similar to Sonic Mania Special Stage. Yeah, I was going to say, like, it sounds a lot like Sonic Mania Special Stage has like, you know, probably like five different homages you could pick out in it. But yeah, it's visually the closest to Sonic CDs. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I don't have a whole lot to say about Sonic CD.

I mean, I'm sure I could find many other things that would fill an hour. but I think it was kind of a really important part of the series, that original Genesis-based series. Yeah, it's really cool. It's not great, but it's cool. Katie, what is your relationship with the Sonic CD? Didn't play it. It's like one of the few older ones that I just, like, did not play. I feel like, Katie, I don't know you that well, but you probably hate it just because of the fact that it slows down a lot and you do have to, like, go back.

back and forth and through the time periods and just building up that momentum to travel through time. It's annoying by itself. I want to give it more of a chance, but it's not as immediate as other Sonic games, and what you have to do is not as self-evidence as it should be. I will fully admit, you kind of had to be around

when it came out. Right. To really appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it does, like you said, kind of seem like the best expression of a CD game at the time. That was, what, 92? 93. 93? Okay. I was one years old. Wow.

You're a baby. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so it came out the same year of Rondo Blood, which I guess to me kind of feels more like, oh, that's what a CD game should be. But, of course, we didn't even get that here, so I certainly didn't know about it at the time. Whereas I was at least aware of Sonic CD, although I did not have a Sega CD because I did not have money. Yeah. That was the challenge. And I feel like Sonic CD kind of was like a almost kind of one of those legendary sort of import-only game, you know, had that sort of reputation of

something like Rondo of Blood, even though it did come to the U.S. just because so few people had a Sega CD. I feel like it was the one that people played the least, aside from maybe Chaotics. Oh, yeah. Up until it was reissued for, what, like Xbox 360 or whatever, about two years ago? First on iPhone, and then they ported it to the consoles and PC.

Yeah, I mean, that was a Taxman version. Okay, right. So it did eventually come out of consoles. Yeah, yeah. You can get it right now. Is that backward compatible on Xbox One? Oh, I think so, yeah. Okay.

So there's, I mean, I was going to say there's no excuse not to be able to play it now. But, of course, if you don't have an Xbox One, which is totally understandable, I guess you wouldn't have that option. But, yeah. It's on PC and every phone you can do that. That's right. Yeah, it's on PC too. So it's a lot more accessible than it used to be. Absolutely.

It was definitely sort of like the first Sonic game that was kind of out of reach. You know, you had to be one of the rich kids to have a Sonic CD or Sega CD. Maybe not, but, you know, like. At the beginning. It was, yeah. It was definitely, like, with a Genesis. and SIGA CD together, that was $5,600? It was not cheap, yeah.

It was definitely one of those begging parents to get it for Christmas for multiple years. It was that much money 25 years ago, so it's like $20,000 now. Something like that, yes. 20,000 Trump bucks. Well, of course, Sonic CD had its import appeal because it had a different soundtrack. Oh, there is that, too, yeah. I like both soundtracks, by the way, just so anybody listening knows for sure. Yeah, they're both, okay.

Have they said why they had Spencer Nielsen just completely build a new soundtrack from the sound of ground up? Oh, I'm sure there was some interview that might have went into it a little bit, but I think it was just a case of like, you know, we just want a different flavor for this because Sonic had a different flavor in America to begin with as far as marketing goes. So they probably just went ahead and had the time to do a different soundtrack, so they got him to do it.

I see. Well, I guess, you know, if you got the space and the money, might as well. Exactly. Sega in the 90s. I don't know. All right. So we're back. And, uh, instead of me, flailing around for a while to find things to say about Sonic Mania while Ray saves my ass. What we're going to do is we're going to let listeners save my ass.

That's right. You, the person whose earholes are currently being tickled by this very podcast, you wrote in to tell us your thoughts about Sonic Mania by request if you read Retronauts on Twitter or go to Retronaut.com. Sometimes you'll see these mailbag requests and a whole bunch of you responded when I said, please tell us what you think about Sonic Mania. So, without further ado, let's reach into the mailbag, and you folks can feel free to comment on this stuff and liven it up,

so it's not just me narrating for an hour. We get letters and read them to you now. From Nick Fugit. I think Sonic Mania is more than worthy of its praises as an accurate representation of the original game. That is, oh, here goes, an okay game that looks and sounds nice, but is generally somewhere between okay and unnecessarily frustrating. I liked the additions they made, the soundtrack of the new animations, but it was, like the old games, disposable fast food. Play it, not an acceptance, move on. Holy crap.

Do you guys want to fight him? People said I was negative about Sonic. I did not write that. That was not us in Retronauts expressing this opinion. That was you, the people who complained that we're too negative about Sonic. And look what you've done. You've betrayed yourself. Jeremy, you should really edit out his name.

Okay, I'm going to bleep over his name so that you won't kill him. Do you guys think that's fair? I mean, I feel like if you don't like Sonic games, you're not going to like Sonic Mania. It's like that simple. Like, Sonic Mania definitely makes things better, like, exploration, and it's, I don't think it is as punishing. Like, they say it is punishing. And there's, like, a few bosses that really suck. Like, the oil ocean boss is not fun.

But on the plus side, the bosses are a lot of, a lot more varied in this game than I, in any Sonic game that I played before. Yeah, I agree with that. It's not just like, hey, here's a robotic robot doing a thing again in a different way.

Like, you start out with that and then it just goes off in all the kind of directions. Bosses are great. Yeah. I have a counterpoint from Rush Dogg with a W. And he says,

Sonic Mania serves as the ultimate counter argument to the quote, Sonic was never good, unquote, meme that became popular due to Sega mismanaging the franchise for a couple decades. Physics have been always been important to the 2D Sonic

games and Christian Whitehead and his team understand this better than anyone, with the possible exception of Eugene Naka. After perfecting the physics, the dev team was able to craft some truly memorable stages. The 16 by 9 format really benefits the sonic formula as well, giving players more time to react to obstacles at high speeds.

The returning stages built upon what made them great in the past and subvert expectations in some very clever ways in their Act 2 iterations. The mean bean machine boss fight and Chemical Plant Act 2 immediately springs to mind as an example of this. With that said, It is the new stages that really steal the show.

The stage is clearly set for Sonic Mania 2 in the future of 2D Sonic is looking very bright for the first time since 92. And that's something we didn't bring up, although there have been 2D Sonic games in this format, but we didn't really talk about how the 16 by 9 format changes things. But I think I agree that I feel like it really lends a lot to the Sonic experience because being able to see more in front of you is really helpful in Sonic games. Yeah, I think it's a good contrast to Mega Man 11, like I was saying yesterday, the episode we recorded. I feel like Mega Man is kind of worse for being 16-9. Like, it just doesn't quite feel right.

But Sonic, because you're spending so much time, you know, running and barreling ahead, being able to have more screen real estate ahead of you dedicated to showing what's coming up, I think really benefits the game. And, you know, because this game is so much more focused on exploration, it just gives you more awareness of what's around you. And I think it really, like, this game really takes advantage of that. Yeah. Yeah. All right. from Mike Kloppick. Hi, y'all.

I'm all caps very excited about this episode. Oh, boy. I believe Bania is, without question, the best Sonic game ever made, better than two or three, better than advance, better than CD, and better than generations. It was made with so much love and care

for what fans of the series enjoy. Even the terrible ancillary characters. You can play as Mighty the Armadillo when you get the special edition or D.L.C. for God's sake. Mania feels streamlined and crafted to make every challenge fairly straightforward and manageable. Instead of giving players ambushes for random spike traps,

fiddly death pits or irritating nonsensical mazes like Sonic 3 often did, mania feels focused on giving us cool moments that we can stumble into, assess, and maneuver around. A good example is the new version of Flying Battery Zone with its electrical lines Sonic has to swing past or destroy. You barrel up to the first of these sections and catch hold of a rotating bar, which stops you and lets you see the crisscross of lines and the robot controlling it. Then you can try and decide where you should jump. the whole game is thoughtful in this way.

Also, the soundtrack by T. Lopes is heavy on funk and dance numbers, a callback to the better tracks of Sonic's early days before uneven butt rock became an unfortunate series calling cards. See, Ray, it's not just me. Funky Sonic is better. Don't have me. The game really made the flying battery zone better, I think, and more playable, less frustrating. Although I could be thinking of the death egg zone, I don't know.

They're right up against each other, basically. I don't know the difference. They're different. No, I agree with that, though. Yeah, the remix levels are very much improved. I mean, they're not, yeah, the best thing about them is they're not copy-paced level layouts. They do actually reimagine them in smart ways, while also feeling pretty much exactly how you would remember them originally. So that's pretty cool.

Here's a young person's perspective. Brett Whitney says, by young I mean like 30, Brett Whitney says, I was too young to have experienced the likes of the original Sonic 1 and 2 on Genesis. The Sonic games that I grew up with are the 3D ones. I managed to try my hand at the classics when they were ported to phones. I thought they were pretty good, but some elements of the game left me very frustrated, looking at you special stages. When I got my Nintendo Switch, the first game I downloaded was Sonic Mania, I was blown away. They managed to pull off the same magic that the Genesis games did,

but this time the developers weren't trying to come up with something to beat Nintendo. They were proving that classic Sonic games still have a place in the video game industry. The somewhat maze-like level design is a welcome change to the linear style of 2D Mario we have come to get used to, as well as delivering interesting boss fights especially the mean bean machine throwback. The new zones fall right in place with the old zones and in addition all of the extras and DLC company coming back for more.

You bet I completed all of those blue sphere levels. Wow, you are a god among men and I salute you, sir. If he was on a plane, I would clap for him before take off. So while I still maintain that Sonic Colors is one of my favorite Sonic game, Mania comes at a close second for delivering quality,

I hope Christian Whitehead and his team see that the sentence, see that the audience for classic Sonic games is still there and can follow up on this. Nevertheless, the game is still great and one of my favorite games I played in 2017. And he says, sorry for the long letter, but it was all worth it. It might be end. And you're a superhuman.

If I was mad at Bright Whitney, he would destroy me with his brain. Probably. Yeah. Blue sphere is not even for me. I'm a mere mortal compared to him. From Justin de Lustro, Sonic Mania is a great game.

As someone who grew up with the Genesis trilogy, cartoons, and Game Gear games, I loved the remix classic levels. But my two complaints, the last level is too long and poorly laid out, and there are way too few original stages. Otherwise, it's the best Sonic games since Sonic 3 and Knuckles. Only other games since it I truly liked was Generation. So it was a treat. Here's hoping for Mania 2.

Is that the end? That was the end. Oh, I think that's a real Sonic tradition is just to have the last level be brutal and demoralizing in all of the 2D Sonic games I played for. for retronots. That's what I know. It's just like, boy, this last stage is really testing my patience with this experience. Yeah, I remember when I was back when I first reviewed it,

that was the only stage where I stripped ran out of time, like, 10 minutes. I just, like, ran out time because I could not, like, speed it in time. And that was frustrating because I was like, how am I, it's like, the whole point of those games to go fast. And I'm just, like, not figuring this out in time, I guess. Well, it's all at the last stage. Yeah, you've got to pull up. Yeah, that's exactly right.

Rabaknik is not fooling around. He'll get that headhog. Ken Hoyt says, I was a Sega kid during the 16-bit console wars, so I missed out on all the great RPGs that were on Super NES and that gen. But at least I always had Sonic. I loved one to three so much,

but I fell up really hard after three. Why didn't they just make more games exactly like Sonic 2? Just make that game forever. The 3D Sonics were always bad to me, and my Sega fandom couldn't cover it. Still, I always had. had a soft spot for Sonic and would check out the games that came out

always disappointed until finally Sonic Mania came out and gave me exactly what I wanted. More 16-bit Sonic. That sounds like specifically Sonic 2. I'm really surprised that it took this long to get it right. Oh, Kevin Bunch is on the comments here, and he says, I really like Sonic Mania, but does it hew a bit too reverential with the sheer number of classic zones?

If they do another, I hope they have the confidence to make more original settings. But, hey, the stage designs, throwbacks, and the return of Ray, hooray, we're all pretty grand, so I'm really nitpicking here. Yep. I do like, like, they are new levels, but I do feel like, in your brain, it does feel like a very same experience to start a Greenhill zone again, chemical plant zone. There's only so many different permutations of the same Greenhill zones levels. Like, yeah, there's the twist. Yeah, there's the little platforms and there's the fish jumping out of the water. I feel like that was a bad coincidence with, like, Sonic Forces,

which also did the same thing opened on Green Hill, just like generations did before it. It's just like, now we had a third game doing it. Yeah. People were like, yeah, I get it. I feel like it comes from a different place in mania, but it's still like, maybe don't do that anymore. Like, not every Mario game starts with an homage to Super Mario Brothers World 1-1.

Yeah. And not everyone. Yeah, not every, not every. So it's good to step away from that with Sonic, too. exactly so speaking of the new stages we haven't really talked about those a lot but I really like the new levels the you know the newly designed themes if if I am correctly identifying which ones are the new ones the like the the Japanese garden one with the cherry blossoms okay yeah that one that's one of the new ones right yeah and the Mirage Saloon is also a new one yeah so was that it in terms of the new stages or were there studiopolis that's right and that one is like it's new but it's all also kind of old because it's so full of homages and it's very self-referential. Like the spin, a club spin

as a sign of the background. A lot of obvious Sega references, not just Sonic. Yeah. Sort of, but renamed and sort of like GTA parody stuff. Less blatant than that. Less blatant, yes.

And less about buttholes. And finally, what was the last of the original theme stages? Oh, God, I can't remember. What I like about Mirage Saloon is it's like... I think the last few are new. It has like two levels in it basically

because it's like you can either be on the plane and there's like that part of Act 1 or if you're like Knuckles or a rare... I think Ray and Mighty also start out on the ground. So it's like you kind of getting like almost like four levels in one. It's like really interesting how it's like structured. And I think like the... It's just like a nicely designed like Western like cowboy-e type level.

It's like very colorful and cool. Yeah, for sure. I mean it's kind of a itself, a guess, what. It's kind of an obage to like the lost desert zone. I think that was going to be in three or two or three. But yeah, I think that also that whole zone is like the best example of how

those levels do split each other depending on the character. Like Knuckles has a different level path on like Green Hill zone than he would on Sonic and Tails and so, you know, that sort of carries on through. But yeah, for sure, like that plain or not plain part of Mirage Saloon is really fun. Yeah, I'm a big

fan of games that, you know, give you a space and then give you different ways to play it with, you know, depending on which character you're playing it as or like which load out you have or whatever. So, yeah, that's something that I really like, especially again, you know, about encore is that it's just, it feels like it takes a really good game and then just blows it open and says, okay, now you can do a bunch of other things within this space that you've already kind of explored. Yeah. So it really feels like the best kind of fan service in that sense. It really makes me appreciate, like, the people who made it.

It's like they have, they probably have all sorts of sony levels in their head. And they just They probably have a million more after this, but they're just really well done. Yeah, and I really like the fact that, you know, in the mirage saloon zone, like a big part of it does involve the biplane, which, you know, is this element that's kind of been, you know, percolating throughout Sonic since Sonic 2 and I think Sonic 2, right? Yes. Yeah. But it's always just been kind of like a little transitional cutscene thing, if I'm not mistaken. But here there's actually a stage where you're kind of controlling it, like Sonic looks up and Tails flies up. You do do that in Sonic 2.

Do you? Yeah. Damn it. So here's my ignorance speaking again. All right. I'm just going to do it all. It's okay. It's a later stage.

Okay. All right. Yeah. I guess I just haven't played that far. So again, that's not necessarily something that's new, but I don't know. It feels, it felt fresh to me. Yeah. As like the sort of ignorant, apostate Sonic player who's not necessarily a fan but doesn't dislike Sonic either.

So kind of casually, like, play a few stages and say, that's neat. Okay. next. So, yeah, I guess Sonic Mania is for me, the person who sucks. What? Come on. It's for everybody.

This game, we're approaching this game as, we're approaching this game as people who have played Sonic games, but I think this is a great game to play for your first Sonic game, really. It's like it is just the ideal version of those levels with like a modern day mindset.

If you never played a Sonic game, I would say play this one first, then maybe you just stop Stop with this one. I mean, does this game sort of, you know, obviate the need for the previous Sonic games? Does it overwrite them, or do you think it's more of a compliment? If you're a new 2D Sonic player and you play this one, the other games might be a little too frustrating for you. Or you might not be used to the sort of concessions we put up with in the 90s. So I don't know.

I could never put myself in that place because it's just such a foreign experience to me. but I mean I think those games are still worthwhile but this is really just like sort of like a very shovel nighty experience like what what would these developers do had they known had they had the time or the hindsight you know yeah it just makes me all the more frustrated that Mega Man 11 didn't turn out this good as well Rudolfo Lopez says,

On the topic of Sonic mania, I think one tradition it upholds is the great music of the series. When I think of Sonic on the Genesis, I think of those catchy tunes that have stuck with me all those years, flying battery zone, chemical plants, zone, Green Hill Zone, Metropolis Zone. Every time I see Sonic Mania mentioned anywhere, including your call for submissions, I immediately start playing the Studiopolis Zone music in my head. I love how Mania takes music from previous entries and remixes

them for Zone 2. Great music package all around. Yeah, that was something I really enjoyed, is that, like, you know, even though the Green Hill Zone music is basically like hardwired into every video gamer's brain at this point, like you get into the second stage and it's like a new take on it. It kind of, you know,

livens things up. So even though you're like, well, this music again, then you kind of got the remix thing going on. That's an old trick in gaming, but it's, you know, it's, I don't know, it works here really well, I think. Yeah, I think the new music is just really good. I think even the music has a Saturn

flavor to it. Like, it's sort of an evolution of Sonic CDs from that sense. And so it's like, oh yeah, I could see this being in a Saturn Sonic game. How about that? So, yeah, they really pulled it off. Oh, so Stuart Gipp says, this is a short comment. It's a good game. probably the best Sonic games since the mid-90s.

It suffers from a chronic lack of identity besides slavish adherence to expectations, which can be amusing but never truly satisfying. As a result, it's a fun experience that feels a little bit masturbatory. It's from Stuart Gitt. Yikes. He's one of our contributors. We're in trouble now. I feel like I did like Generations because

it wasn't ambitious. It was just giving me the nostalgia I wanted, but I feel like this is a much more successful version of that game. Yeah, I mean, Generations I like the two, but it is a wink. It really is, yeah. I feel like if anything, Generations more fits that description where it's just like, I feel like I had generations as it just felt kind of like passionless.

Like it didn't feel like, it's like, where it's giving you what you want? Hey, kids, you like the chubby Sonic, right? When they think outside the box, though, it always goes wrong, I feel. So, like, staying within that box was a good for one game. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like I've always liked Sonic to say they're not afraid to get weird and, like, do dumb stuff. Yeah, I mean Sonic and the Black Knight? Like, whose idea was that?

Yeah, it's like they have like a dark board, you know. Like, they just, you know. Well, I think a lot of the complaining about like the classic remix stages in mania, I think come from people, and I don't know anything about Stewart. I'm sorry, but I think people, a lot of them don't, haven't played any of the ROM hacks over the years or the fan games. And like, if you want some wank, there you go. Wank away. Yeah.

So, and again, you know, it's all, mania is all based on that, that history. history. But I think it's honed. And so they did a good job. And I don't think it's that annoying that there's a few classic stages in it. All right. Well, I'm going to impose a moratorium on conflating Sonic and Winking at this point. All right. Suit yourself. But here's a kind of a counterpoint to that from Anthony Whitaker. Sonic Mania was the Force Awakens of the Sonic series. While not entirely groundbreaking, it reset the series and brought it back to its former glory. Sure. While the inclusion of classic zones and blue sphere felt like unnecessary filler,

and likely an indication of Sonic Team's initial hesitation with the project, Whitehead and Team made the most of that, and the remixed versions of those zones in Act 2 make them worth revisiting. Encore mode seems like a glimpse of some of the ideas the team could bring to future installments if Sega gives them the green light, like the character change mechanic and Ray and Mighty's abilities. The design concept of, what if there was an unreleased Sonic game for the Saturn,

is an intriguing one that have contemplated many times, so I'm glad they leaned into that. Also, I cannot speak highly enough of T-lope's sound. soundtrack, which smartly tapped into the New Jack Swing sound that the older games featured. I waited 24 years for the series to come back to this. Welcome back, buddy. Is New Jack Swing another term for ass jazz? I think so.

Okay. It's Michael Jackson-y. Is that what the music sounds like? Yeah. That's what I think so. So Tillis says, since the end of the Mega Drive era, there have been several attempted revivals of the traditional Sonic gameplay. Sonic Pocket Adventure, Sonic Advance, half of Sonic Generations, and unfortunately Sonic 4, oh yeah, we never mentioned Sonic.

Sonic 4. And we didn't have to. It never existed. The results were very mixed and none of them came close to reaching the heights of the 16-bit classics. None of them felt like true sequels to Sonic 3 and Knuckles, merely lesser versions of Sonic 2. Sonic Mania succeeded not only in faithfully recapturing the look, sound, feeling gameplay philosophy of the Mega Drive titles, but also moving forward from where 3 and Knuckles left off. Rather than scaling down the experience, mania went with bigger, with sprawling secret-filled levels, grand set pieces, unique character abilities,

a charming Saturn-style special stage and some of the most invented bosses it's in Sonic CD. A feature that particularly impressed me was the return of the Aqua Flame and Thunder Shields from Sonic 3. They behaved as they did before, but this time they had environmental effects.

The Flame shield would burn wooden bridges and melt ice. The Aqua Shield would let you walk on harmful chemicals, and the Thunder Shield would magnetize you. I feel like this is a microscosm of what makes Sonic Mania so special the way it built upon what came before in novel ways with a new surprise

around every corner. And that's one thing I forgot. It's like the shields do things environmentally now, too. Yeah. Yeah, I really enjoyed bridges burning out from beneath my feet. I was like, what the? Okay, that makes sense. I know, it's not a good, it's a source spot for Ray,

but, like, how does this compare to Sonic 4? Like, what does it do right that Sonic 4 does wrong? You reviewed Sonic 4, right? I reviewed episode 2, which is better than episode 1. But I think, like, the Sonic 4 games are mainly by Demps, and I think DIMS just made the worst sonic levels. They really just did not understand because they relied way too much on the bottomless pits.

That was like the key thing. They really just did not get anything about what made the 2D games great. So that's the core thing is that, you know, you have these fans now who made these hacks and fan games all the time and understood how the actual levels are laid out and just, you know, intrinsically made a game like that. And that's the difference. Yeah, I didn't see the fanfare for.

Sonic 4 that I'm seeing for Mania even in terms of like, oh, look, this thing is here. I think, you know, no, Sonic 4 is the easiest Sonic game to hate by far. Yeah, it's ugly. I mean, I feel like that's what it comes down to. Yeah, they try to make graphics like new Super Mario Brothers, but it doesn't apply in there.

No one should ever do that. No, thank you. From Kevin Boyer, the new music stages and gameplay gimmicks feel authentic compared to any classic Sonic game. The game does an excellent job of showing an alternate timeline of a series much like Contra 4 for DS.

As a fan of the more experimental Sonics, Sonic Rush, Dark Brotherhood, Secret of the Rings are among my favorites. I do hope the success of Mania doesn't turn the series into pure nostalgia. Here's looking forward to Team Sonic Racing in 2019. All right. Someone on the other end of the spectrum there. That's cool. I mean, I don't think there's any danger of Sonic games adhering to the classic games forever, for a long time anyway. Because now the 3D games are classics.

That's true. As we've just heard. All right, let's do one more each Okay, one's from Mitechie. I'm going to edit this a little bit because it's very long, but he says, so before this he gives a bunch of examples, but he says In trying to pump this game full of ideas from every

2D Sonic game that existed up until around 1999, I think the game suffers. Levels wind up being much more cramped and harder to navigate than I tend to associate with the series, and on top of that, they're pretty long. I definitely remember complaining about the absurdity of retaining the time limit of the previous games when the levels were at least twice as long of any

as any of those. Thankfully, that was fixed in recent updates. The other issue I have with the game is that due to being built on a set of stages from various times and places

in the series, there's not as clear of a sense of progression in space like you saw on inner-level cutscenes in Sonic 3. Even after updates to enhance this efficiency,

there are some transitions added after the fact that are pretty weak, just like when escaping from the hydrosity sewers to wind up on the tornado biplane in a mirage saloon. I think the idea

of having the game be another historical pastiche game instead of wholly original is in conflict with the sort of game with clear connective tissue and ever escalating stakes. And he said, I also think a lot of the boss encounters are overcomplicated and not very fun. And I do agree with that last part

because I feel like some of the bosses are really cool, but when I actually beat them, I guess that's how you're supposed to do it. I just barely beat him or, like, I did in a way that I felt like I was cheesing it. Like there was no clear strategy in my eyes to how to fight this boss. All right, one final letter, and it's kind of, you know, another opposite tack to the previous one. So this game is, I kind of feel like there are two schools of thought here. Like, it's very classic feeling, and that's great, and it's very classic feeling,

and I wish they had done something different. Yeah. All right, this is from Luis Guillermo Jimenez Gomez. One of the great things about Sonic Mania is that it fully commits to its retro aesthetic while pushing it to its limits. There have been retro revivalish Sonic games before, especially in the last decade or so advanced generations for, but they often suffered from half-hearted concepts in execution or limited production values. That is not the case with Mania. The developer's tested experience and knowledge in the

rom-hack scene results in a game fully committed to improving and polishing on the fundamentals of the classic Sonic games, with the most solid overall foundation a Sonic game has had, probably since the first rush. On top of that foundation, they put some fantastic levels and strong gameplay, which only improves with a new character-switching mechanic on Sonic Mania Plus. finishing one of the latter Oh, finishing one of the later More Difficult levels on Plus with my last characters made for a memorable, intense

experience and well worth trying the expansion. So best Sonic? Yes, definitely. Bestest Sonic? I still defer to 3D Sonic 2. Colors DS Rush, and especially Sonic 3 and Knuckles for that title, but Mania is rapidly getting closer.

All right. And then to kind of wrap a little bit about some of it, or maybe have Ray talk a little bit about some influences that he sees. these that I don't think other people have identified, which would be the 8-bit sonic games, which tend to be kind of overlooked. There was a pretty cool thread on Reset Era recently that was talking about the master system sonics and how they, you know, those were developed by ancient,

Uzo Koshiro's company. Ancient and aspect. Right, the first one was ancient. Similar name. But it added like, you know, kind of the narrative framework that one of the letter writers was complaining lacked. is lacking in Sonic Mania, like the idea of

here's a journey, here's a world map. So it did, you know, those games varied quite a bit from the Genesis games even though at first glance you'd be like, oh, it's just a scaled down version of the Genesis games. Yeah, they did start off pretty different from the Genesis games, but then quickly like snapped right into line, I think, with them towards the later ones.

But I mean, like, when you first glance at it, you're like, oh, Green Hill Zone, but eight bits. Oh, yeah. But I mean, like, okay, well, I'll get into it. I actually have quite a bit of sentimentality towards the 8-bit games, probably more than the 16-bit games, because I had a Game Gear first before Genesis, and I was just because I was like, well, you know what,

if I'm going to get anything for Christmas, it better be the portable color system with a backlight so I can play it under the covers. So, yeah, I really do like the Sonic 8-bit games. However, not all of them are that great in the big picture. Only two of them, I think, are must-plays, and that is Sonic Chaos and Sonic Triple Trouble. Those are the two that are most like the 16 big games and have enough of the enough elements of them to really feel competent.

Sonic 1 is also fine. It's good. Like Jeremy said, it's a bit different. It looks familiar, but it does everything a bit differently. Sonic 2 is just a real weird one. It just like starts off weird. The physics are weird. Everything is weird.

That was an aspect game? I think so. Yeah. I can't remember for sure. But, yeah, and the thing is that most of them were not on Master System as well, because I think, you know, people will look at the Game Gear version and see the scrunch to resolution and the screen space and feel like, oh, I don't want to play this. But at least Sonic Chaos is on Master System and has an expanded view.

So I think people like, oh, and actually, speaking of ROM hacks, I think people did hack triple trouble to play into more Master System resolution. So you can find ways to make that a more comfortable experience for you. But those two games, Triple Trouble and Chaos, are the best game of your games. There are, of course, a lot of spin-offs like Sonic Drift and Tales Adventure and Sonic Labyrinth, which is like Sonic 4 levels of dire. But on the whole, I quite like the Epic Games. And they are present in some ways in Sonic Mania.

So can you explain just a little bit about what Chaos and Triple Trouble Do? and what that is brought over to mania as? Okay, sure. Well, if at all. Yeah. Well, like I said, Chaos and Triple Tour are more like the Genesis games and that they are more focused on speed and getting through things and also like a good focus on power-ups.

Like Sonic has these like jet shoes in Sonic Chaos. They're kind of fun to use. So they do have some weird like non-canon abilities, but they do feel more like the Genesis games. That's like my super nutshell way to put it. But in Triple Trouble, they introduced a new villain or, you know, henchman character named Nak the Weasel, NACK. And then he shows up in a cameo in Sonic Mania when you start Mirage Saloon. You'll see either him or Bean or bark the polar bear on the opposing plane that shoots him down and starts a level.

So that's a fun little element there. But then also there's a metal sonic fight boss, boss fight in Sonic Mania where he spits out these little tiny silver sonics. And that's actually what was supposed to be Metal Sonic in Sonic 2 on Game Gear was these little silver sonics. Not Silver the Hedgehog, but robotic Silver Sonic. He was Sonic Riders, right? No, Sonic 2006. Oh. I'm thinking of another silver hedgehog then.

Maybe. You're thinking of my Fanon character? Cheerfully withdrawn. So those are like a two big... Is Jeremy the Hedgehog? Those are the two big references to the 8-Bit games that people really appreciate if you were familiar with those. And so, yeah. But then also, if I may go on another tangent, there's a new fan game that is like a remake of Sonic Chaos that is done up just like Sonic Mania is.

Done in a different engine, but these fans made like a nice reimagining of Sonic Chaos. Which is also fun and will feel a lot like Sonic Mania. So you can check that out if you want. What is that one called? Sonic Chaos. Oh, okay. Yeah. Sonic Chaos 2018 is your Google search for.

You can look up the Sonic or Sega Amateur Games Expo, S-A-G-E. That's where people gather to publish their fan games. I didn't realize there was such a thing. There is, and it's pretty cool. You can see good videos on it from John Lineman from Digital Foundry. Oh, okay. He does roundups of those. And Sonic Chaos and Triple Trouble are both on 3DS, right?

I believe so, yeah. They are, yes. Sega, I think, put all the Game Gear Sonics. on 3DS, didn't they? Did they? They might not have done... There were like five Game Gear games and then all the Sonics or something.

There are five like Sonic platformers on Game Gear. There's Sonic 1, 2, Chaos, Triple Trouble, and Blast. No, Blast. Sonic Blast. Isn't Tales Adventures on there? It's not really a platformer. It's kind of... I mean, it does, but it's not a Sonic platformer

in the way I'm just, I'm thinking of it. Got it. Yeah. But then, yes, there are the side games, Tales Adventure, Tales Sky Patrol, and Sonic Drift 1 and 2 and Sonic Labyrinth. There are way more Sonic games on Game Gear

than there were on Genesis. I mean, it was the kid-friendly system so they just pumped it full of something stuff. Sure. Yeah. All right, so our guests for our next episode have begun to arrive, so we need to wrap this up.

But I think we've kind of covered what we need to cover. So just to kind of wrap up, I would be curious to hear everyone's sort of final verdict on Sonic Mania. success, failure, what needs to happen with Sonic Mania 2 to make it, you know, shore up the weaknesses of the first game?

Katie, why don't you jump in? I feel like after like having played Sonic Mania basically twice now and then like bouncing into it, I feel like I don't want Sonic Mania too. Like I want them to make five. Like that seems like the logical things. I feel like my favorite parts of Sonic Mania are the new levels. So I want them to just make. a bunch of new levels.

What if they called it Sonic Mania too and it were just all new levels? I mean, that would be cool. Or do you think Sonic Mania by definition is... I feel like after playing Sonic Mania, it feels like it's so tethered to like

oh, we're like paying tribute to Sonic History and remixing all these old levels. And they're like new and like fun ways and stuff but I just want them to just do new stuff. That would be cool. Bob? I have the exact same feeling about that and if they can still reference things

but I feel like I just want to know how they can do when they're not so relying on nostalgia. And I think they, based on the original levels in this game, I think they can do a really good job. And even though this is sort of my ideal Sonic experience, like Ray said, I love chemical plant zone, but I'm really sick

of it now. I don't want to hate that song because it's a really good song. But yeah, I really want to see, even if they call it Mania, too, just like more original levels, like I'm so surprised they came up with themes that have not been used before, or themes that I don't remember Sonic games using before. So I really want to see

you know just more original content from this team yeah I'm kind of in the same boat as the rest of you I feel like I am okay if I never play Green Hills Zone again you know I love the original Sonic but yeah that's that's been done many many times so let's move along I'd be happy to see more original bonus stages like the the UFO chase stages and fewer like Blue Sphere like that was a neat effect on Sega Genesis and okay Like, we live in a 3D world now, so it's less impressive and a little frustrating. But on the whole, like, I really like the game, and I would love to see, you know, the next game that this team creates. Hopefully they will create another one.

Just, you know, add in more characters, do more of the, you know, the sort of multifaceted level design where you can explore in many different ways and get different things out of the game by playing as different characters. Like, to me, that's a really great way to get a lot of mileage out of a, you know, sort of a finite. toy box. So, yeah, like, just encore mode was great, and I'm really impressed by it. So just take that and run in a new direction with it. Right? Well, I like Sonic Mania quite a bit. However, I don't really want there to be a Sonic Mania, too.

I don't want them to run into the Mega Man 10 effect, which is like, yeah, that was cute last time, but I'm done now. I think that would happen. However, if I'm them, if I'm those guys, and if I'm Sega, and considering the Saturn influence in Sonic Mania already, I would start making a low-poly sonic platform game called Sonic Extreme. Okay. We bring that back from the dead.

I think it would blow minds in just the same way Sonic Mania did. I kind of want to see that now. Yeah, that's my prediction. Thank you, Ray. That was the spiritual touch this podcast needed. The perfect grace note. Thank you. We need to make Sonic Extreme.

All right. So you have your challenge Sonic team, or not Sonic team, but... Neo-Sonic team. Taxman team. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, thanks everyone for writing in, sharing your thoughts. It sounds, like I said, you know, there's kind of two schools of thoughts about this game, and I see validity to both of them, and I'm kind of in between the two because I like the idea of Sonic Mania and also suck at playing it.

So it goes. But definitely the most fun I've had playing a Sonic game since, you know, I borrowed a friend's genesis back in the day and messed around with the original. So a pretty successful game. Anyway, let's wrap now. This has been Retronauts, and I am Jeremy Parrish. You can find me on the Internet on Twitter at GameSpite. I'm also contributing stuff to Greenlit Content, so you can find me there at Greenlit Content on Twitter and other places. And, of course, Retronauts itself is at Retronauts.com.

It's on social media as Retronauts. And we are supported through Patreon, your donations, not really donations. Your subscription is what keeps us going. $3 a month will get you. early access to podcast with no ads and higher audio quality, which I think is very compelling. And if you donate, if you contribute more, like at a higher Patreon tier, you get other cool things like T-shirts and stuff. So please check that out of patreon.com slash retronauts, Katie.

You can find me on Twitter at you may Katie. It's Y-U-M-E-C-A-T-Y, and I host a podcast called Bad End Podcast, and we're at Bad End podcast on Twitter. and stuff. Ray? I'm RDB AAA on Twitter. You can also follow

my game company Bipel Dog on Twitter under the same name. How about that? Yeah, that's the core thing. Thank you very much. Hey, it's Bob Mackey. You can find me on Twitter

as Bob Servo. I have two other podcasts, Talking Simpsons, and What a Cartoon. And I have a Patreon. You can check out. That's patreon.com slash Talking Simpsons. If you go there and subscribe,

you'll get all kinds of bonus stuff. We're doing a lot of great things in 2019. If you're listening to this later than 2019, hey, how about 2019? That was pretty great, huh? Well, yeah, I think it worked out for all of us involved. So, yeah, go to patreon.com slash Talking Simpsons to find out where you can get a lot of cool bonus podcast, exclusive series, bonus interviews, cool stuff like that. If you like old video games, you might like old cartoons.

I think it's a good idea to like both. That's it for me. All right. Well, thanks everyone again for listening and for writing in. Be sure to keep watching Retronauts.com and Retronauts on Twitter to watch for future mail solicitations. They happen every few months when we're going to record. So yes, thanks. And stick around in a few days for another episode.

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