Retronauts - Retronauts Episode 262: PAX West 2019 - Super Metroid Vs. Symphony of the Night

Episode Date: November 29, 2019

It’s the ultimate metroidvania showdown as we settle once and for all which was truly the greatest, the most ambitious, the most influential work of the genre: Nintendo’s Super Metroid or Konami��s Castlevania: Symphony of the Night? Strong opinions will be expressed! Harsh words may be exchanged! Blood might even be spilled (only to be absorbed by a dhampir ensorcelled by Dark Metamorphosis)! Panelists: Jeremy Parish, Bob Mackey, USgamer's Nadia Oxford, and Mike Drucker. Originally recorded September 2, 2019 at PAX West.

This week in Retronauts, it's a throw-down-ho-down. Hi, everyone, and welcome. Hi, everyone, and welcome to, wow, It's been a while since I've done one of these, but a live presentation for Retronauts at Pax West. I almost called it Prime because I'm still old. But yes, hi, I'm Jeremy Parrish, one of the co-hosts of Retronauts, and that's a podcast where we talk about old video games. And some of the old video games we talk about often are Super Metroid in Castlevania Symphony the Night. And by God, we're going to talk about them again.

And with me here to also talk about them are some really cool people who are very funny and smart. and I'm just going to let them talk and stand here and basically have them do all the hard work. Cool. I'm Mike Drucker. I'm a former writer for Nintendo, current writer for television. I am Nadia Oxford. I am from U.S. Gamer, and I am actually one half of the Acts of the Blood God RPG podcast. Hey, it's Bob Mackie, and based on the size of this room,

I think we're also going to announce the new Pope. Actually, I think if they see white smoke at Pax Prime, they get upset. So please do not set anything on fire So anyway, yes Hi everyone, thanks for joining us Even though it's kind of the end of the show It's a weekday and other things are happening around

I appreciate you coming here And apparently they're also streaming this on Twitch So for the five of you who are out there watching this Hello, thank you for your time Please don't tune out. We want some concurrence It's always great But we are basically going to Put together two of the greatest video games

ever made and decide which one of them is the greatest video game ever made. This is not up for debate. No, you know, I have learned from doing extremely correct and good lists for Polygon that using superlatives is much more, like, it's much more engaging for audiences than saying, which of these very nice games do we like slightly more than the other? So we're putting it in superlatives, which one is the best? And you are going to help me decide, and they are also going to help us decide. And so basically, let's just kind of give a rundown. What are

these games? What are? What is Super Metroid? Someone up here, talk. What is Super Metroid? Really more of an idea than a game. It's a way of life. It's a way of life. Okay. You guys go ahead. You want to jump in.

You seem like you're about to say something. What is Super Metroid? What is Super Metroid? Gosh, it's almost like the start of everything. As much as I love symphony then I'd have to give credit to Super Metroid for kind of having that core there, even though I know that Igarashi says he wasn't directly inspired by

Metroid, or Super Metroid. I just still kind of feel it in its blood. Well, I was actually thinking in more concrete and less philosophical terms. Like, it's a game from 1994 by Nintendo. You have all that information in front of you. Yeah, it's an exploration game where you... I don't want people

looking at Wikipedia while they're listening to this. But yeah, okay, anyway. So, great game. Third game in the Metroid series. and like Nadia said, it is kind of the beginning of everything. There are so many indie games in this day and age that basically start with someone saying, I really like Super Metroid. That's it. That's where they go.

And so if you've played an indie game in the past six or seven years, you've probably played some variant of Super Metroid. So the flow and the rhythms of the game should be very familiar to you, although it may involve, you know, like Mexican wrestling or like, you know, saving the will of the wisps or something. But the spirit is there, the essence. And then, of course, there is Castlevania Symphony the Night. Could you guys want to talk philosophically or concretely about that one?

Castlevania is a land of contrast. It's another exploration game from 1990. Seven? Oh, shit, I was right. 1997. And it's Castlevania, which was a series that they used to make. Oh, according to the creator, it's actually a Zeldavania. Exactly.

A Zeldavania. That blew my mind. I'm very excited. I'm going to be talking to him about that next week, and it's going to be the best interview of my life. So, as you may know, these games fall into a category that is known as Metroidvania. And I was surprised recently to learn that I invented the word Metroidvania. I don't remember doing that, but it said it on the Internet, so it's probably true. I didn't see any note for a citation needed

so I think we're good but actually canonically like realistically in the true essence of things Symphony of the Night is Metroidvania because it is a Castlevania game that has a lot of elements of Super Metroid in it

that's what Metroidvania kind of started out to mean and then I mangled and abused it online and now people just use it to mean hey you explore stuff and sometimes you shoot colored doors sometimes not but both of these games follow a very similar structure they are in a lot of ways kind of an attempt to take

role-playing progression and character development and advancement and apply that to an action setting and they do it in pretty different ways Super Metroid is a game about shooting things in outer space and Castlevania Symphony Night is a game about slashing things with a sword

and what else does Alicard does a lot. All kinds of things. Sometimes he attacks and he goes, what? Because he can't. It's about fighting the cast of the Wizard of Oz. You're right, it is.

Eventually. That's how you get the best weapons. I actually have a quick Symphony of the Night story. My very first paycheck I got for my part-time job, I went and I spent it on Super Metroid, sorry, on the Symphony of the Night, and two South Park T-shirts.

And I got a lecture from my mother about like, you know how to spend your money and wear carefully, blah, and it's like, Well, okay, the South Park shirts, number one, didn't age well. Number two, they disintegrated in the wash. But I think Symphony was a good buy. Nadia, I have a follow-up question for you. Yes.

Was one of them a Respect My Authorita T-shirt? No, it was, oh, my God, you killed Kenny. Because I heard someone at this convention say in 2019, respect my authorita. Oh, poor guy. And he was not arrested on site. It's retro now, and according to our podcast, that's cool. 1999. It's back.

It's totally back this week. We're about to do a Dreamcast 20th anniversary. panel and Final Fantasy 8 is coming out this week. It's literally September 1999 right now. So please do respect our authority on this topic, Super Metroid versus Simping the Night. So panelists, where did you first encounter each of these games? I would love to know. I will go first, just to be fair. Super Metroid, I discovered in a magazine. Even though I loved Metroid and Metroid 2, I had no idea there was a sequel coming out because I fell out of touch with video games for like a hot minute.

And that was just long enough for them to create a sequel to my favorite game to that point. And I said, holy crap, I need to be more in touch. And that started a long life wasted on games journalism. And Symphony of the Night,

as if to prove that, was the very first video game I ever imported from Japan and played through in a language I did not understand at all. And I bluffed my way through and got to the end and then looked for hints online

to get the real ending. And it was very satisfying. despite the fact that I was like, I don't know what these people are saying to each other, but they sound very angry. They sound very serious about it. Yeah. I think my first experience was Super Metroid.

I was also a fan of the Metroid series, and then a blockbuster video in my area was closing. And this was before they all closed. It was just a shitty area, Florida. And it was closing down, and I got on sale, like, used with, like, the Blockbuster sticker on it. I got Super Metroid, Earthbound for like $5. Holy shit, nice.

This was before anyone cared. It was before when Earthbound came out, and people were like, this looks like shit. And then no one played it, and then 20 years later, every indie game that's not based on Super Metroid is based on Earthbound.

That's true. That was back when the only people who liked Earthbound were the weird kids on the internet, now run like a multi-million dollar business about it. Well, not that part. It jokes on you. Yeah.

So I got that, and I got a bunch of virtual boy games, which did not age well. And Castlevania I got for Christmas that year, and I must have been 12 or 13 when it came out and I remember being like mom you got to see this it's like a cool horror film and my mom said I don't care and

she wasn't wrong because she didn't care and I can't imagine being like I can't imagine being a woman who grew up in the 60s and 70s hearing a little boy be like okay so you level up like she was right I think I actually tried to show my mom

the intro scene for Calcivana like die monster and she's like what the hell is this but I already you the story about like how I came into Castlevania Symphony the night. I actually told that story to Koji Garashi. I got to interview him last year and he seemed to appreciate it, so I'm pretty happy about that. But I actually, I picked up Castlevania because I've always been a huge Castlevania fan, so when I finally got the PlayStation, I got Symphony. Super Metroid is a little bit later in my life because I was never a big Metroid fan on the NES and I skipped Super

Metroid for some reason, and I didn't play it until I married my husband in 2009, I think it was. I can't remember my own anniversary, I'm sorry. And we kind of merged our video game collections, which is something that happens when you get married. And I'm like, oh, it was Super Metroid. I've actually never played this. And he said, well, you better get to that. And we're divorcing right now. So I played it, and I was, of course, enthralled.

It's an incredible game. I learned it by watching you, Jeremy. Super Metroid I always tried to be a good father to you, I'm sorry. I read the old school who was

I've read a Toasty Frog Jeremy's old website Yeah So you're writing Lots of essays We're all very old You're writing lots of essays About Super Metroid

And things like that So in 1998 Or 99 Probably 20 years ago The Sears Still had their video game section It was called Funtronics I remember that

And it was surrounded by a bunch of grandma blouses On Big Racks but they're having in close out all of their SNES games were $10. And I think it was a summer of 99 where I fell in love with Super Metroid and I wrote Jeremy an email about it

he never responded. I'm calling him now on this panel. I think I've done this before on previous podcast, by the way, but that's basically Jeremy got me to play Symphony of the Night and Super Metroid, so that's why I'm here right now. In fairness, so many people wrote me emails back in those days.

It's true, and I think even addressed... Five or six a year. I think I even addressed it to you as Toasty Frog. That might have been it. Or Mr. Frog. Did you say T-Frog? Because that is not acceptable. No, only one man says that. And that's not acceptable. All right. So anyway, now we've kind of laid the basis

for this Battle Royale of two games. So it's like a 150th of the Battle Royale. And what we're going to do is we're going to be scientific. We're going to talk about different categories of quality. We have 30 minutes to do this. I'm sure it's going to work out. And we're going to basically, every

everyone here is going to say, like, you know, which game comes out ahead. And at the end, the game that comes out ahead in the most categories that we get through is going to be declared the winner. And you can, you can blog about it, you can wear t-shirts about it, you can tell your friends. This is definitive. Like, this is the deciding vote right here. So I want all of you to remember this moment, because you are part of history. So let's just take a quick, informal vote. Whichever game loses, we erase from history. Yeah, sorry.

Choose carefully. Your memories of that game will be gone as well. We might unravel the entire fabric of indie gaming. We can do it. We have the power. All right, so informal poll.

You folks have played these games, right? All right. Who prefers Super Metroid over Castlevania? Oh, you peep? It's a lot. Who prefers Castlevania over Super Metroid? Oh, still a lot. See, it's also a lot of here.

It's going to be tight, folks. These are two great games. But which one is? is the greatest. Well, I say we decide by first talking about the characters, these fine people here on the screen. On the left, you have Alucard, the son of Dracula. You can tell because his name is Dracula backward. And Samus Aaron, who, I don't know who her parents are, but she was adopted by a giant bird. I don't parents. Sorry. Go ahead, say again. Her parents are named Rod and Virginia. Is that from the comic? That is from the comic. Okay, well, there you go. So,

Sammas, Otter, Virginia. Yeah, it wasn't a good choice. All right, so which of these is a better character? Now, we're talking strictly about these games. We are not looking at the character assassination of Metroid OtherM, and we're not looking at whatever the hell Alicard was in Lords of Shadow. We're just talking about Super Metroid and Symphony the Night. So let's put it to the vote here.

What do you panelists think of these characters? Which do you feel is the better expression of what you want from a video game? I mean, they're both great characters, but when you look at them and you sort of balance them, only one of them has a name that's Dracula spelled backwards. That's true. So I've got to go to Alacard. So one for Symphony. As much as I adore Samus Aaron, you know, she was kind of the pinnacle of female game characters,

so something that was very important to me, Castlevania's characters are so anime, and I still adore them so, so very much. I actually looked, I mentioned I interviewed Koji I Garashi last year at Pax. I dead ass looked him in the eye and said I have shipped Maria and Alicard since I was 17 years old and I don't think he knew how to respond to that but I just had to tell him so that's my answer he didn't usher you out of the room though did he

what's that he didn't usher you out of the room though did he no he should have he had his whip he could have hit me like with it like he would have been in his right he didn't do it all right so that's two for symphony Bob where do you stand on these characters I would say superficially Alicard is more beautiful absolutely staring at him right now it's very distracting. So I don't know what's going on in that power armor, but it can't be as good as Alicard. I kind of agree. So, so Symphony then? Yes, symphony. Right. I'm going to vote

for Samus because in the artwork for this, like the Nintendo power artwork for this and the strategy guide is like the one drawing of Samus as a woman that I really am like, yeah, that's her. She's like six and a half feet tall and made of pure muscle. And she's like operating this giant robot suit with just like the force of will. I'm like, that is a woman who can mess. up all the space pirates. You're not wrong. Why did that sound sexual? What's that?

You're like, that's a woman who can mess up all the space pirates. And tonight, I'm a space pirate. I think you need to be online less than you. You're a little too internet right now. What if Sam has stepped on me with those big boots? You'd be quite dead. That's true. It'd be a blissful death.

Taking away all your votes. All right. All right, so they've had their say, but where do we stand? Let's just do a cheer vote so the people on Twitch can participate as well. So who prefers Samus over Alicard? My decimal meter says that's a lot. Who prefers Alicard over Samus? All right, I think Alacard and Sympani Knight take this one handily.

So that's one. But here's a more challenging one. Music. Okay, actually, that's not challenging. That's not challenging at all. No. I feel like Symphony that kind of wins this stuff, but it's not even fair. Yeah, because a lot of Super Metroid's music is just remixed Metroid music, right?

Just one or two tracks, but still. But then it has, like, the kind of weird, like, underground calypso. Oh, that's true. Like, oh, you're going deeper into underground. Here's some happy music. Yeah, I've got to go with Symphony, though. Yeah, I'm definitely going with Symphony. the one thing I have against symphony's music

is in the inverted castle you have maybe what's it called final something or rather than... Final tapioca? Final tapioca. They just play it incessantly and it has a very kind of strong beginning that gets very tiring to listen to

when you transition from one room to the other. So you're voting for Super Metroid then? No, I am not going to Super Metroid because everything else about symphony's music is just perfect period. I'm going to vote for Castlevania because I'm playing Bloodstay now and that soundtrack is just the symphony soundtrack

with one-note change in every song. I agree. And we won it. We all love it. It's perfect. And where do we stand on Super Metroid's music? The three of you are very brave. Symphony of the Night? All right.

Running away with this. That's two for Symphony. All right, all right, all right. So visuals. This is maybe less of a giveaway. I think Symphony of the Night is a very beautiful-looking game has lots of really cool effects, really pushes the envelope of what you can do with 2D,

but there is a consistency and an atmosphere about Super Metroid. And really, we should have made it about sound design instead of music, because the sound design of Super Metroid perfectly matches its visuals, like the moody caverns and just the kind of atmospheric sound that you get when there's no music

is it really kind of puts you in a place. And as much as I love the really detailed, vivid, semi-3D sprites that Symphony uses. I've got to go with Super Metroid on this one. Let's go backward this time. Bob, I'm putting you on the spot. In terms of music? No, in terms of visuals. Oh, visuals. I will say

Super Metroid wins for having all new graphics. All original graphics. Yeah. I mean, Symphony wasn't that bad. Symphony has the most graphics. It has the most graphics. But, I mean, it doesn't reuse that many graphics. Hmm.

It's not that many. You know, when you look at the percentage. If you put in a centrifuge and spin out all the graphics. The amount of reused graphics in symphony are really quite modest. It's just there's so many graphics as Bob said. I will say I love... Compared to the later Castlevania games.

I love Alicard's jazzy walk but I also like the very subtle breathing animation with Samus. And I feel like she's not trying as hard, so I'll give it to Super Metroid. Samus is important too because she has non-mirrored sprites. She is... That's right. That's true. That's very true. Arm and that's

always where her bullets come out. It's a bigger sprite, too. That's right. Better hero sprite. I feel like, and this is sometimes a poor comparison, but I feel like playing Super Metroid now, we joke that it looks like indie games are based on it, but if you played it now on Steam, you'd be like, oh, this is a well-made indie game, and Castlevania is a little bit older feel to it, so I'd go with Super Metroid. I'm going to go with Castlevania because Castlevania Symphony Night has some effects that

really define what this castle is. Like, I'll never forget. You go into the depths and you go against the lava and you see Alacard's shadow and the shadow of the enemies against the background is really creepy is really awesome. I still find the chapel area to be really, really relaxing. You go into that confessional booth and sometimes get your ass speared, but it's always creepy

and always fantastic. And the music that plays there is just so intimidating. I have to give it to a symphony. All right, so who's going to stand up for Super Metroid in terms of visuals? Woo! Symphony of the Night. I'm going to have to get that one to Super Metroid.

All right. So here's a more, I don't know, I don't know how I describe this one, abstract. The story, the story of Super Metroid. There's not actually, and versus Castlevania, there's not much story in Super Metroid. You get a little text scroll at the front, and then everything kind of plays out through the narrative that's built into the world. Whereas Symphony of the Night, every once in a while, someone is like, what's up Alicard invading the demonic castle I've just been hanging out here for a while instead of fighting Dracula and I just wanted to talk to you about how this castle's evil and

stuff how's it going so that's you know two very different approaches to narrative oh my monster exactly okay so Castlevania does have the better voice acting you just get a little taste of it Dan Aisen yep setting things up for you whereas Symphony the Night does have some incredible scenery chewing. Maybe the best in gaming, but some of the best. I don't know. What do you guys think? Story, like which narrative pulled you in?

Nadia, I'm going to go ahead and guess it's Symphony the Night for you if you actually ship characters. Now that there was a lot of shipping to be done in Super Metroid, if there was, I really don't want to know about it. Yeah, I am going to give it to Symphony because just the story meant, it's so silly in anime, it meant so much to me when I was a stupid team. but I will give a point to Super Metroid for being totally wordless and yet still having like a very impactful emotion to it I mean that that ending with the mother brain exactly that was pretty intense some good stuff yeah I do ship Samus with the thing that gives her the map in every level Chozo that's her dad what's that isn't that her dad it might be wow the the map robot thing the map robot yeah it's an inanimate object well you know what it's 2019 there are no rules but I will say that

both games rely on existing games to provide context for the story but in the case of Super Metroid it was relying on a game that was available in English so I will give it to Super Metroid I mean it's hard for me because I have a deep appreciation of games that are about Metroid's in captivity and galaxies

at peace so it's a tough choice I think I think I'm going to have to go at Symphony of the Night because when I was 13 it had a very compelling story and when I'm an adult it has a very funny story so that's what I'm going to go with. So it's a game of contrast. It's a game of contrast. It's a land of contrast.

I'm going to go with some Metroid on this one, just because I really appreciate the almost like pandemime narrative because at the end, you know, it really does come together and it hits you hard. It's like shocking and surprising. And when you realize what's going on with the gigantic Metroid, you know, the baby, the baby, the baby. Yeah, would you enter that room?

It really, it's a remarkable piece of kind of diogenetic storytelling. And there's a lot of that throughout the game. As much as I love Symphony the Night, I've got to give it to Super Metroid on this one. So that means this is a tiebreaker for you, the audience. Let's reverse it. Symphony the Night. Who wants to vouch for the story in Symphony the Night? Okay. And Super Metroid? Oh, wow. Wow, definitive. Wow. You also love Galaxies at Peace, and I agree. All right, let's talk about the game worlds. I think this is kind of something we've touched on a little bit,

but the worlds through which they explore, and the worlds in which these games exist, they're both kind of in finite spaces. That's the essence of Metroidvaney in a lot of ways, is you have a space, a contiguous space, and your mission is to explore it and to work your way through it and find cool weapons and stuff as you do so.

But, you know, Samus is exploring SR, No, wait, which one? It's planet Zebus. It's back to Zebus. Got a little mixed up with my cannon there, so sorry. It's, you know, basically like five areas, whereas Simony the Night takes place in Dracula's Castle, which is a creature of chaos that has many areas that shift around,

and then there's an upside-down version for some reason. So which of these is the cooler place to explore is my question for you? I will say we have all been in a giant mansion, right? But have you been in an underground, cave where there are cherry blossoms falling from the sky? Absolutely not. That is why Super Metroid wins for me. Just looking at that scenery triggers my allergies.

Lots of pollen. I am going to give it to Symphony because Super Metroid has areas where I just get so stuck that I get frustrated. I think it's in Brinstar. There's have that pit you can fall down and try and teach you the little squirrel etiquettecun things. They're trying to teach you how to wall jump, but I'm like

an idiot not being able to pull it off. and I just find that like a real slowdown. I can avoid it now, but when I first place, Super Metro, I was like, wow, this is terrible. And I also have problems with the depths where you're, like, trying to get the gravity suit and you're just slogging through the mud, and it's just very, it turns like,

it really slows down the game where a symphony really keeps up its pace for the whole thing. The secret to mastering the wall jump in Super Metroid is to have played Strider on NES. If you can do the triangle jump in that game, no game will ever challenge you again. I never understood where they couldn't make it as easy as like Mega Man X

or something Okay So I I think the setting of Metroid itself has a lot of unexplored potential So I want to say the setting itself is better But in terms of game to game I think Castlevania has a better world in it

Just because there's also more areas There's more to see It feels It feels like it's like Even though it's a crazy-ass castle it feels like it's one, like, castle. Whereas with Super Metroid, it sometimes feels like you open a door and you're in an entirely different biome.

Yeah, so that was Symphony for you? Symphony for me. All right. I guess I have to go with Super Metroid myself just because, I don't know, there's something about the world and the way so much of it is unexplained when you get to the wrecked ship area.

That's true. There's so much happening there, just kind of built into the back, backgrounds and the view screens, and you're like, what is this ship? Like, it wasn't here the first time I played Metroid. You know, Metroid Zero Mission explains this maybe, although they said it doesn't, which is, I'm not sure why they would go back on that. But, yeah, like, if you look at the screens in the background, you kind of get the sense that,

oh, maybe this was, you know, meant to be some sort of Metroid breeding ship or something, and the Metroid's broke out. But maybe not. But anyway, there's Robbie the Robot shooting donuts at you. That's, you know, something you don't see every day. Bad robot. So, yeah, the kind of mystique and just the sense of, like, you are inhabiting a lived-in world as opposed to a place created specifically for the purpose of you going and fighting your dad.

To me, that lands a little more. Anything where you fight your dad, I'm going to say wins. I just have to interject and say, did you know that there's an entire Dragon Force song that's actually written called Symphony of the Night and it's Alicard singing and saying, like, you know, father, look into him. It's very dramatic. It's amazing. You should all listen to it.

I'm going to take your word on that one. No, you're right. Every piece of media now is about dads. And I think this was the first one. I think you're right. Ever. Could have been. Well, I mean, technically Metal Gear was, but it wasn't at the time.

We didn't know. We didn't know yet. So, folks, which world do you enjoy, you know, inhabiting more when you play a video game? Do you like Super Metroid's enigmatic space or symphony? of the night's how would you describe it gothic caverns and architecture and

hot topic. Stabby stab each... Hot topic, yes. Hot topic. It's a Winchester mystery house. I mean, I really think just because Alicard is a got a got a castle into a hot topic. When you've got skeletons throw on their own bones it does. Some of them throw curry.

No, wait, that was another that was another Castlevania game where they throw curry. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. All right, so who's going to stand up for Super Metroid here? And Symphony? That was exactly the same volume. It's quite even, yeah. It's the same. All right, that's a draw.

Thank you. I mean, A hero is nothing without someone to be a hero is nothing without someone to be a hero against. So we have to ask which game has the better enemies, which has the more interesting villain and also cast of assorted rogues that do battle with your hero, or actually that your hero does battle with. Anyway, I'm going to go with symphony that I'm in this one just because, I mean, yeah, it's like, I hate you, dad, but, you know,

Mother Brain does not quote the Bible at you when you defeat her, and I think that's an underappreciated skill in a villain, just busting out a Bible verse as you die once again. also there's like the the graphical tricks that symphony the night uses really make for some surprising and interesting villains like or you know just just random mobs that you fight the bosses are huge and the characters you battle the the random minions tend to have interesting effects like you know the the ice shade that kind of is transparent that throws ice at you or you kill a bird and it explodes into feathers there's the guy who's uh birds you kill and then he like freaks out and goes after you. There's just a lot happening in that game. So I'm going to have to say Symphony Night, even though I do hate Space Pirates. I do like how in this era of Twitter discourse that the first enemy you fight in the game

wants to debate you, but more importantly, there is a Donkey Kong skeleton who throws barrels at you, and that's why it's Symphony of the Night. I am also unsurprisingly going to Symphony the Night because I have to admit as bad as the voice acting is in that game, I still kind of get transported back to, like, a teenage, like, gitty girl when I hear Alicard say, like, in the name of my mother, I will defeat you again. Like, I still think that's badass as hell. I agree. Although Metroid could have taken it if Mother Brain ever threw a glass of wine like Dracula does.

Like, if Mother Brain was just like, come on, let's fight already. I'll be like, all right, you win, Mother Brain. I'm going to grow now. Right. If Mother Brain had her voice from Captain N, maybe problematic, but I would go with that. Levi West's face. That was Audrey. In Little Shop of Hors.

Oh, that's such a good movie. I'm sorry, so where did you come in? I came in on Captain N, the Game Master. Symphony of the Night. I think I also said Symphony, so that's four. It's kind of a given, but where do we stand, audience? Symphony in the Night, does it take it? Those are the bad guys you just look at it in your life.

like, I can't wait to mess them up. Not in a sexual way. In a very, very straightforward, murderous way. But also fuck them. All right. So another one for, that's a straight sweep for Symphony. Well, I guess I didn't pull you guys for Metroid. Metroid enemies, anyone? Yeah, I mean, once you get to those gold space pirates that you can't attack until they, like, land and turn around at you. That's pretty cool. When you see them the first time crawling down the walls after, like, you've, uh, activated the electricity in the area. It's kind of creepy and cool.

That's true, but that's one moment versus a whole bunch of guys with giant hammers who run at you and go die. All right, so a more meaningful discussion, this really gets to the heart of Metroidvania, and that is which game

has the better progression, the better map structure, the more engrossing journey through the game. What is a Metroidvania? What is What is a Metroidvania? What is a miserable pile of map secrets that you need to unravel. And, yeah, so basically with Super Metroid, you have Samus as kind of the tool that

unlocks the world. I'm not calling Samus a tool. That'd be very rude. But she herself is basically a weapon and a tool all in one. She gains new powers, and those new powers allow her to access new areas, well, also more effectively killing monsters. So, you know, basically everything you accomplish in Super Metroid is really baked into your character. And so there is this very kind of linear progression of where you can go in the world and, you know, what you can do as a character, even though it is, you know, nonlinear.

Symphony of the Night is a bit more abstract. Alacart has an inventory and he has magic and he has, what else does he have? He has... Transformation. Spells, I think. Familiar. He has... rough eyeliner.

Familiar? He has some milliers, yes. He has some milliers, yes. That's true. He gets like the jewel of open that has no purpose except opening two doors. He gets, you know, he can carry around maps and buy them, and he can sell

garnets that he doesn't need anymore because why do you need garnets when you're trying to kill Dracula? So it's a messier game in terms of progression. There are certain things you need to do. Key elements you need to get like the jump boots and stuff. Some of those are integral to Alicard, but not

so much as in Super Metroid. So you have basically two kind of different philosophies and two different approaches to making the game progression happen and how the game unfolds. So which do you prefer, which is more elegant or more interesting? I will say that even though Symphony of the Night has more power-ups and more abilities, I think the ones in Metroid feel more important every time you get one. There are some really lame ones in Symphony where I think one of them is just like you know the names of enemies. That's not lame. That's how you know, like, there's a doll from hell after you. But I'd rather have missiles. It'd be so hard to

get the chrysigram if you didn't know which enemy was smoo. It'd all smoo. Well, I find them less important. Like, every time you get a power up in Metroid, it does feel like I can do so much more now compared to Symphony, which is why it's a much shorter game. But I

do like the sense of empowerment that Metroid gives you over Castlevania in general. I'm going to have to go with Symphony again because you're absolutely right. It's a mess at times, but that makes it so much more interesting to me. One major problem I have with Metroid is that I feel like I'm being rushed through it, even though I know that's

I can take my time. You're just saying the game is too slow, and it gets into a slog. I'm confused on you. No, I know, but that stresses me out because I am slow, but this game wants me to go fast to get... Sam's to take her clothes off or whatever. But the point is,

yes, even though Symphony is messy, it's like, it was interesting because I would see like a ledge in the library for example that was too high up and I'd be like oh well I don't know what that's about I guess I'll come back later and then I get you know the the jumping stone and I'm like oh okay I remember that now but I fully admit that sometimes it's abstract as hell like you have to have the demon familiar to unlock certain things and it's like there's nothing that indicates you need the demon to do this job for you it's just you stumble upon it by chance so there's just so much you can potentially miss in that game but I just love the sensation of like having a room that's like there, and it's like, oh, this is pretty deep, and you go deeper and deeper and deeper, or, like, higher and higher and higher. And I didn't really get that sense with Super Metroid. I sort of have the reverse feeling that I think Super Metroid's much more elegant, and I like games that finish.

Like, if any of you were making an indie game that you can finish in two hours, I will buy it right now. Like, I have no time. And I remember, even as a kid, when I got to, like, I thought I'd beat it, and then I got to the inverted castle, I was like, fuck you. Like, I was so mad because I thought I had beat a game. And it was like, oh, no, there's a whole other game you got to do now. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no.

So you got to listen to Final Lotto. I loved that. Holy crap. I was, like, shocked when I got out the inverted castle. And I'm like, okay, well, I'm sure the real Dracula is just in the throne room. And then it just kept on going and going. And I said, holy God, this is a whole castle. This is amazing.

Yeah, for me, it felt like they were like pencils down. Okay, there's another essay now. It was just too much for me, so I'm going to go with Metroid. All right. So Super Metroid gets another one. And, yeah, I'm going to say Super Metroid also. I feel like it says a lot about Symphony of the Night that the game has to give you warp rooms to get around. There's a lot of backtracking going from place to place, and it's kind of, you know, it's interesting,

but it definitely kind of drags on. And once you get down into the inverted castle and you've been all these places back and forth over and over again, you're just kind of like, yeah, okay, whereas Super Metroid does not overstay its welcome, and it makes every area of the game seem meaningful. Even those kind of like big caverns in Meridia where you're like, what's going on here? Eventually, you kind of realize, oh, you know, like this is teaching me new skills and showing off powers that I'm going to get later. So, yeah, I feel like there's an economy of design with Super Metroid that I really admire. And I feel like that probably is why the game has been so influential on so many other games,

because it just, like, it's a lean, mean game that, you know, it doesn't waste a lot of time. And there are a few places where you can get stuck. But I don't feel like there's too many of them as long as you understand why Metroid can't crawl. So, yeah, I'm going to go ahead and give it to Super Metroid. And, of course, we have to put it to the audience. Super Metroid, which is that the more interesting map progression, in your opinion? Or is it for Symphony the Night? Super Metroid.

Symphony fans? No one. Wow. It's okay. You can be honest. You can speak your feelings even if you're in the minority. Your opinion still matters. All right.

So that's another one for Super Metroid. All right, here's, I keep saying here's something as if each of these categories is somehow meaningful. Here's another category that I've just arbitrarily added to this list. Easter eggs. You know, the little hidden things, the little secrets and details that make each of these games interesting and make it much more than just the surface level experience.

In Super Metroid, you have things like there's a glass tube There's several glass tubes, actually, and one of them is broken, and one of them is not. And if you realize you can break glass with your super bomb, then you can actually break that and turn it into a shortcut, but you don't have to. There's, like, a dead dude outside of Crade's Lair, because I guess Crade is actually much harder than it seems when you fight him as Samus. And there's, like, spacebugs eating him. There's the little dudes who teach you how to wall jump, and eventually you can save them.

There's lots of little secrets hidden in Super Metroid, but Symphony Night also has it has a lot of Easter eggs it has boots that make you like one pixel taller if you wear them and it has no other advantages whatsoever there's a fountain when you run past it it starts to flow blood instead of water

and then you know in that same area there's a vampire who's living in Dracula's castle who is not Dracula he's a much older like Nosferatu looking vampire and you can go in and fight him right away but you can also go into his room and then sit down at the table across from him and just hang out Like, he's not going to attack you until you attack him because he's a gentleman.

So these games have a lot of just bonus things hidden inside of them that make them interesting and really reward people who play them a second time or a third time. And, you know, a mark of a great game is that there's always something new to find every time you replay it. And that's true for both of these games, but which game do you think does it better? Mike? There's Symphony of the Night for one reason, and this is not a joke. Do you guys remember when you could put the CD, the PlayStation disc, a CD drive and had like a music track on the second track.

Oh, you tried to throw so much shade. It's that, that's it. That's the only reason, because when I was, like, 13 that blew my mind and I'd show friends it, just the idea of, like, slipping video game music onto a CD that you could play on a CD player was crazy to me. Yeah, I actually love that because, like, Alicard's voice is almost like scolding you. Like, you're not going to listen to me, are you? And it just plays the music. I am giving it to symphony, obviously, because there's a million things I could sit here for hours and talk about.

But for me, it's the fact, the confessional in the chapel. where you can sit down and different things happen depending if you're like the one confessing or the one or like in the priest role and if you're in the uh if you get a confession you might get the priest to drop uh you know communion wine or grape juice in this case which is really a fantastic detail but if you sit in the in the priest area you might have like someone try to kill you but you might also have a woman who sits there and cries until you stand up and some people say that's like alacard's mother and i always thought that was an interesting little uh Well, there's less room for Easter eggs in Super Metroid because it's a very serious and somber game where the ultimate goal is to see a woman in a bikini. So Castlevania has a lot more fun with the premise and I really love Easter eggy items like the platform shoes that raise your character 1 pixel and the Technicolor Dreamcoat which lets you change the color of his cape. So many cool and useless things that are just fun to play with. So I think ultimately there's just more room for fun and secrets than Castlevania given the tone is a lot.

It's a lot goofier. Yeah, I've got to go with Symphony, too. I love the fact that the Easter games are more integral to the game in Super Metroid, whereas in Symphony of the Night, they're more fun. But because it does have those RPG mechanics, it has, you know, drop rates and things like that for its enemies, just a huge inventory of things. You can get spells.

You can learn without even, like, you can beat the game without ever learning any of your spells. It's just, yeah, there's a lot to explore. And I, you know, I've played through this game more times than I care to admit, but I still occasionally stumble across things and I'm like, oh, yeah, there's like the luck code where you can enter a certain code that makes no sense whatsoever as your character name and all the things that enemies drop

will happen much more frequently so you find all these just weird and different ways to play through the game. So that variety, I think, really counts for a lot. So I've got to go with Symphony of the Night of this one. And yourselves, who wants to stand up for Symphony the Night for Easter eggs? And Super Metroid, blown up the tube, anyone?

See, I respect that. All right. Another clean sweep for Symphony the Night. So next to the last category here, legacy. Which of these games has had the more impactful legacy? I don't know. Is impactful a word? It sounds like a marker.

Sure, let's make it a word. It's like using ask as a verb. I'm sorry, or as a noun, sorry. But, you know, Super Metro. I'm going to have to go with Super Metroid because it is like the skeleton, the foundation of so many other games. It's, you know, its influence is shown even in the same thing in the night. So it's kind of unfair. It's almost giving the home team advantage to Super Metroid.

But that's where you go with it. Let's poll the audience first. Who thinks Super Metroid has the more significant legacy in other different? Symphony of the Night All right Let's respect that Is this one a given Let's someone

argue for the devil here Or not I'm a Super Metroid Okay Even I have to go to Super Metroid Even though I do believe that all the touch Because developers tend to add onto their Metroidvania

That's better for worse That's totally a Symphony of the Night's influence But as you said Metroid is the skeleton and it's a very pretty skeleton. Yeah, it's definitely Super Metroid. Although Symphony of the Night, I think every game should have

death up here and just take away your weapons rather than kill you. What? What? All right, well, this is pretty interesting. We've been through eight categories, and it's four to four. So this final category is going to be the one that settles it

unless you guys end up with another draw again. And that is something I call fudge factor. And that is basically like putting all, you know, other considerations aside, which one do you just enjoy more? Which of these games can you go back to over and over again? And this might be the most difficult question, because I think back on how many times I've played through both of these games, and, like, it's, you know, a dozen or more each. I

honestly couldn't say, so I'm going to answer last. I'm going to say, Bob, I'm going to pick on you. I will say that Super Metroid is much more digestible. It's like a game you can play through in a few afternoons. I think with Symphony, you want to get into all the weird items and the drops and the systems and, you know, finding every percentage of the map. I think there's a lot more to do in that game. So it's something I don't play nearly as often as Super Metroid where we can sit down with it and, like I said, in a few afternoons, be at the end. So they're both good, but I like the brevity of Super Metroid, the brevity of the experience.

It is the soul of wit. Yeah, I'm very stupid, which is why I'm going with Symphony because I kind of like that rambling feeling. I love the exploration of the castle and the inverted castle. And the way everything comes together, like listening to the music while I explore the castle. I'm really more of a melee fighter anyway, so I prefer using a sword to using a cannon. So I have played Super Metroid to death,

but I have absolutely demolished Symphony of the Night, just on every platform you can imagine. And when it comes out on the Canon printer, I am there. Yeah, I'm going to go to symphony. Just like, I, like Super Metroid, I think, is a better game if you want to replay a game start to finish. But like whenever I like set up like an emulator or something, I'll put symphony first. Like symphony is the game that like I will noodle around with when I'm bored and play an hour of or just like mess around, just run around

because it feels a little more open than Super Metroid. But Super Metroid I think is like a better start to finish experience. But as far as me, I play symphony much more. All right. And, you know, right now it's one to two. So I'm going to put it to the audience. Fudge Factor. Who He just loves Super Metroid the most. It's really make those voices heard. Right, I respect that. Very good. And what about Symphony the Night?

Who wants to stream for that one? What was that? I didn't bring my a decibel meter. It sounded slightly like Super Metroid. I say slightest edge to Super Metroid. Okay. Oh, so it's me. tiebreaker.

Hmm. All right. You know what you have to do. It's gato-robato. Do you run, like, escape immediately. So to wrap it up, I guess, I don't know, which of these is, like, Super Metroid is an amazing game, but Symphony Night is also amazing, and they're both brilliant in different ways.

But, you know, I think I kind of come down with Mike on this, you know, in that Super Metroid is a game that if I play it, I want to sit down, sink my teeth into it, and experience the whole thing from start to finish, which, you know, there's something to be said for that, but Symphony is a game where I can just jump in. I, you know, I can use one of the weird codes or just go kind of in a weird path through the game, like take a different unexpected route, or, you know, do something like try to beat the game with just bare fists or whatever. But there's so many different goofy ways to play it, you can jump into a save file, you can put so many saves on a memory card,

just fill up a Symphony the Night memory card and just jump in anywhere. And also there's a lot of different versions of Symphony. There's the completely weird and mis-aimed Saturn version that's full of bizarre additions and strange losses. Yeah, so I'm going to have to go with Symphony the Night. So it came down to the wire, but that settles it. It's 5 to 4 for Castlevania Symphony the Night.

Super Metroid is now erased from history. you've heard of it. No, I'm kidding. Super Metroid is an amazing game also, and again, it's had a huge impact on so many other games, much more so than Symphony the Night. And, yeah, I'm glad that they both exist. But I'm also glad that we could all stand here in this audience, and for the sake of the internet and posterity, proclaim once and for all that Alacard is in a cooler game than Sammas. Sorry, Samus. Anyway, I think that pretty much wraps it up And that's basically our time So thanks everyone for coming out Enjoyed having you here and enjoyed shouting at you Thanks Bob, Nadia, Mike for Yeah, thank you so much for coming out

You guys have any words for posterity before we wrap up I didn't hear anything Do you have any words for posterity before we wrap up I will say that they're both winners But in another more accurate way, Castlevania is the winner. Yeah, I have to say, like, if you're having a contest who has the prettiest protagonist,

like it's a deadlock. I can't tell you which one's going to win, but I don't know. I have to say that when I was a young girl, Alucard's fashion sense just blew my mind. This is really fast. I dressed up as Alucard for Halloween when I was 13. That's amazing.

And guess what had not broken through the cultural barrier yet. Are you from Helsing? No, I'm from Florida, so I had to wear a giant white wig, and I was a fat kid. All right, well, thanks everyone for coming out. That wraps it for this panel. But in half an hour, we do have the Dreamcast's 20th anniversary necromancy jam. So if you want to stick around for that, you don't have to leave.

You can hang around for half an hour in this very exciting auditorium. It's up to you. But thanks again for coming out. and I may see you again in half an hour or now. Thank you.