Retronauts - Retronauts Micro 051: Talkin' Pods with Watch Out for Fireballs

Episode Date: November 14, 2016

As part of our post-10th birthday victory lap, friends Gary Butterfield and Kole Ross of Watch Out for Fireballs! (and several other shows) join Bob for a laid-back discussion about the podcasting game, the true meaning of "retro," and why you should get your butt to Portland next October. Thanks for listening, and we swear we'll actually be talking about video games next week! (And, presumably, for several hundred weeks to come.) Be sure to visit our blog at Retronauts.com, and check out our partner site, USgamer, for more great stuff. And if you'd like to send a few bucks our way, head on over to our Patreon page!

Hello, everybody, and welcome to a super special, super informal episode of Retronauts Micro. I am your host, Bob Mackie, and this episode is sort of a victory lap after our 10th anniversary panel that we posted last week that we did in Portland. I just kind of want to talk about podcasting in general and we sort of had a strange content gap to fill. We usually work way ahead but a hurricane delayed our last recording sessions so I had

to pull together a show at the last minute and thankfully some podcasting pals are going to help out with this one and I'd like to introduce to you Gary Butterfield and Cole Ross. Say hello to the nice people. Hello. Hello. And they are from the Watch Out for Fireballs podcast or really

they have an entire network. The DuckFeed.TV network with lots of podcasts. They work way harder than me, and I've always been a big fan of their podcast in general. And so we're going to get back to normal topics next week. We're going to continue crawling up our own asses this week, and then you can just slide out next week with a new episode about an actual video game. Oh, God, please do not describe that profane earth. I'm sorry about that metaphor. I didn't mean to gross anyone out. But yeah, so Gary and Cole, in case you don't know, they do the retro gaming podcast, Watch Out for Fireballs. And I find the podcast interesting as a narcissist because it started

around the same time I started podcast. And I feel like I've taken a lot from their shows, not stolen, but sort of learned how to talk about games in different ways. And I find them like kind of an inspiration in the way I cover things, even though we take very different approaches. So Gary and Cole, can you explain what Watch Out for Fireballs is exactly? Yeah. Yeah. The way, so we, since we did the convention as well. I ended up explaining this to a lot of people who walked up to the booth.

And the kind of thing that I've settled on is that it is kind of half, let's play, half critique. So we go through, you know, we pick a game,

like an old games book club. We go through that game, usually, you know, in about anywhere between 90 minutes and two hours, kind of hitting all the beats. And we talk about what does and doesn't work,

game design decisions, and kind of where it left us. Yeah. And a big part of that is also kind of reexamining where it kind of stacks up. So often we are kind of taking a second look at a lot of these. And so we're kind of kicking the tires and testing each individual moment, seeing how it fits into the hole, but kind of trying to arrive at some kind of conclusion about where this thing fits.

So I like to ask this of everybody who podcasts because I started out as someone who always enjoyed podcasts from their very beginning. It was just something to stick in my brain during my most boring moments of life. And, of course, I grew up, yeah, I grew up throughout my mid-20s as a fan of retronauts. And, I mean, I really just sort of fell into podcasting. I did a pretty bad podcast with my friends. We did the best we could, but it's all off the internet now. Don't look for it.

I'm not even to say its name. But I was sort of chosen. I was lucky enough to be chosen to host a show that was already fairly popular. So I feel like I feel like I'm spoiled compared to you guys who had to work from the ground up to build the Duck Feet Empire. But I'm just curious as to, you know, where you started podcasting, I know way, way, way, way back in the day, almost a decade ago. I was on Cole's, like, radio show, is college radio show in Cincinnati?

Yeah, yeah. Talking about, I think, what was the name of that show, Cole? Oh, my gosh. At the time, it would have been called, I was going to say, don't Google this, but it's impossible to Google. Also, it's on the website, stand under the don't tree and riddle me this because I was always very bad at making up Nans for stuff. But yeah, like I had you had you call in a couple of times, actually. That's right. And I think you have to own the CEO, sorry, not the CEO, but the SEO on

that title. I don't think anything else is named that. But yeah, I mean, Cole, you already had to start, you already had like a foot in the podcasting game with the radio show. But I want to know from both of you, like, how did you get into podcasting? And like, what have your goals been with shows like Watch Out for Fireballs? Yeah. So I did college radio. And that kind of started off as just kind of, okay, we're going to play some music and then try and say something funny in between and then have music to go back to when I ultimately fail at that. But that was during college. And then during summer, between, I believe, like my freshman and sophomore year, I started listening to OneUp podcasts because I was working at a very boring, like, order entry job at a school supply company. So I was listening to like one-up FM and one-up yours, I think is what it was called.

I went through a bunch of names and retronauts, obviously, as I was entering the item codes for boxes of pencils and owl pellets. And then when I went back to school, it's like, well, okay, I didn't realize that this was a thing, like podcasts talking about video games. So I kind of reconfigured the show to be about that more and more over the years. And then once I graduated, I kind of amassed a collection of friends who ultimately went on to co-host another show on the network called The Level with me. And then Gary and I, we met each other on something awful. And then we started working each other because we were mutual fans. But yes, I came to podcasts out of boredom and then decided, hey, I would like to do that too. Yeah, I feel like there's a weird connection between like one up and something awful for podcasters.

I don't know. maybe just the circles I travel in or whatever, but I just noticed that we usually have some of those things in common. Like, we either are all goons or we were all listening to One of a Podcasts, which I think everyone was at that time because it was really just a new, a new weird thing that you could tell there was some reluctance amongst people, some of the people there, like, we have to do this too, okay, but then it became a mildly viable business thing to do, I guess. Not very profitable, but it's something that really lets you talk on a personal level to

people. You're building brand equity. Exactly, yes. That's how I think of my life. So I really want to know, I'll talk about my own reasons for this, but, you know, I'm just curious as to you why you're choosing retro games to look at. Maybe Gary can talk a little about this. Why that's subject.

And what are you trying to do with these old games? Like, why are you choosing this kind of subject matter over any other kind of subject matter you could talk about. And you guys do talk about a lot, to be fair, like X-Men cartoons and bad games and newer games. You're not limited to retro games, but I guess I'm just talking about watch off for firewalls. Yeah, yeah. The reason we got into it specifically, uh, into old games, was when, uh, because at the time when Cole was doing his, his radio show and we met on something awful, I was doing my own, uh, podcast that were less kind of focused. And, uh, I overheard Cole on

Don'tree talk about I think Breath of Fire three and wanting to play it and nobody on his show the two things that nobody else on the show really seemed to know very much about

were like old games or iPhone games which are both things that I was into and that's what kind of prompted the union and I think the reason why we stuck with that

even though we do defining retro is an annoying urge that some people have I don't really, you know, I don't know. It's, I don't think it really matters that much. But I think the, the big thing for us is that, uh, one, it's outside of like a news review kind of hype cycle thing.

So it's not something you can get everywhere. You know, if, if, if you want to hear two people talk about, uh, like vampire bloodlines or, you know, sacrifice or something like that, you're just not going to get that elsewhere. Um, and a lot of those games came out when there weren't podcast. you know, there weren't these kind of audio records of just kind of discussions about about these games, like it didn't exist. So it's kind of neat to be able to do

perhaps not the definitive, but to kind of set something in stone that is, you know, this is, I just revisited this. I did a bunch of research on it. This is my kind of complete take on this old thing. And now it exists and it's crystallized. It's outside of me. And I can kind of go from there.

I think that competing for kind of new or reviews or something like that was something that didn't interest either of us and even your more modern show Cole you guys don't you guys will talk about new games but it's just kind of whatever you happen to be playing and a lot of times it's outside of the current game cycle as well

yeah yeah I guess I really think as far as what I do it's just that you never really know the true value of a game until like maybe five or six years have passed possibly even fewer years just you can go back and look a review were they're dead on right about things like you guys just did a Resident Evil 4 episode. That is great, by the way.

I enjoyed listening to that very much. And everyone was right about that game at the time. It got really good reviews. It got really good scores. Everyone was very, you know, keeping praise upon it. But then you go back to reviews for games that just were too ahead of their time, or maybe they were approached from a very of that time mindset where you can appreciate them more today. I remember really digging Echo Night, but then going back to reviews and people were

just like, what the hell is this? So, I mean, and I'll get to this next question. I feel like the value in talking about these things is because once they're reviewed, I feel, and once like the guides are written, that's it. There's no more discussion until the inevitable anniversary happens and you can write your pithy article about it. But I feel like this allows us to have a second take on games that might not have, you know, gotten the credit they deserved. And that's why I kind of shrug off the question about what you consider retro, because if there's any chance, talk about a game that's more than a few years old. No one else is doing it, and I'm happy to take that chance. How do you guys even answer that question? I'm sure, like me, you get

asked that a lot. And one of the reasons I enjoy your show is, unlike a lot of video game nerds, you guys are not interested in gatekeeping at all. And I feel like no matter what niche you're into, there are always gatekeepers. And I feel that what is truly retro question is a form of gatekeeping. Like, people, I'm not trying to be petty, but people get mad when I do games from maybe even like 10 years ago, but I feel like you don't realize like these are old games for younger people ultimately. Yeah. We did a Super Mario Galaxy here recently and said like, okay, this is retro.

It came out almost 10 years ago. You have to come to terms with the fact that you're old now. That's such a big part of it too, because, you know, the gatekeeping is, oh, this isn't what, you know, I played when I was a kid. It was what I played when I was an adult. But time, you know, time moves. It is not a static thing. And, you know, I think that, you know, me and you, Bob and Cole, too, are like, we have a piece in that some of the worst kind of like, I love this hobby. I love, I love video games. But one of the worst things about it are there are kind of elements that kind of seek to gerrymander things to an exclusive, you know, to exclude things. You know, the idea, I don't have to actually consider this idea or think about it if I can change the definition so this thing just simply doesn't count. And you're running to that from kind of all.

angles. And the retro gaming one is one of the most arbitrary and, uh, you know, kind of silly ones, I think. Because it's not, uh, I don't really know what it accomplishes. Um, you know, if there, if it's just shorthand for I didn't want to hear people talk about that game, you know, that's what it always seems like to me like, oh, that seems too new. But something else that maybe came out of the same date would be considered retro or even a newer game that has more kind of retro stylings to it. You know, it is, right. I mean, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, um, I, I, I, I, tell people 10 years just as a way of humoring them if they're upset with the idea that it's sort of nebulous. But I say any amount of time that can give you enough perspective on a game

is important. Because again, like I've said this before as someone who writes reviews and someone who gets a lot of negative comments on my reviews, that reviews are just really just a snapshot in time of everything informing that reviewer, the expectations of that era of that genre and of that game, and any number of factors that are sort of just frozen in time. And once you can get away from that and see if that perspective is correct or maybe you can add some light to it. That's what I always like to do. But so it's not like I'm counting down like, oh, it's nine years and 345 days. I can almost talk about this game. Once it hits midnight, it's officially old. I don't really think of things like that. Yeah, absolutely. The thing I think about with that is just like, we see it with modern games with these kind of backlashes. And the backlashes are not people being kind of knee-jerk reacting, you know, to, to like, Bioshock Infinite or Dragon Age Inquis or these games that like you know got all drag or gta four these games that kind of got these perfect scores it's not like people are just being uh sour pusses it's they're taking some time to think about the game and they're past this kind of initial shock and awe of just seeing

something big and pretty i feel like yeah you know so in in a few years like people are going to start or in 10 years people will start doing retro games podcast and covering things like that and being like yeah this doesn't hold up this isn't very good i feel like yeah and and it's you know because so it swings both ways you can see it action. Yeah. There's a there's probably a cynical way to say this, but like I'll just, this raises it up for me.

But what is retro? Anything I can talk about without feeling like I'm part of the sales apparatus for that thing. You know, like just as long as there's not a DLC still coming out for it. Something like that, yeah.

You know, that's a really glib way to put it, but like trying to narrow that down to an incredibly fine point. That way madness lies, because look at the booth that we run where, you know, we'll get a kid coming up and saying, like, oh, in 64, that was for my childhood. Then we'll have a gray beard coming up and saying, oh, retro, huh? If you do anything newer than Donkey Kong, I don't want to hear it. And then we- It's interesting.

Go ahead, Gary. I was just going to say, we also, a story that we told before is that we've had, like, a kid that couldn't have been over seven come up and tell us what was retro. Like, come up and say, like, oh, you guys, you have done PS2 games. Like, that's not retro. And it's like, man, I am like five times older than you. Like, this is so weird for you to come up. And like, this is a bad habit. Please, you know, you're only seven.

There's still time. Develop useful skills, please. Well, actually, I was at your booth at a Portland Retro Gaming Expo and I was playing Pokemon Yellow. You guys had a little contest or like a little event where you were trying to build a polodex with the people that stopped by your booth who would hopefully catch a Pokemon. And I was working my way towards a Graveller.

and there was like a little like eight-year-old girl who wanted to play. I'm like, wow, like these games, regardless of how primitive they look to like a child, a post-9-11 child's eyes, they're still interesting. I mean, Pokemon is a still Pokemon no matter, you know, which way you shake it. So I thought that was very touching. Just like, even though this is not that old to me, this is like a pre-birth game for this child, but they're still interested in playing it. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think that there is something, you know, because going back to earlier when you,

you're talking about, like, kind of what draws us to this. I mean, there's an element of just aesthetics to you, where it's an appealing aesthetic. And I think that's, it's a more universal aesthetic than kind of this, uh, this doom quest for photorealism that we're, we're currently in the throes of with more modern games. Like, it's, you know, kind of bigger and, and more basic shapes and more colorful and things like that. Like that tends to be kind of a hallmark of older games. And I think that does kind of transcend age limits a little bit.

Yeah. So I wanted to talk to you guys about, uh, you've been doing shows for over five years. there's quite a number of games under your belt that you've covered and played in full. Well, mostly played in full. I think there were a few that were too bad. Like sort of mana maybe. I forget that.

Maybe that was like one of them. Yeah. That was a little too wordy. What games have like surprised you or disappointed you? I'm curious, just in retrospect. Maybe Cole, you can start. I just like, I assume you know these games pretty well or at least know the reputations or have some experience with them going in.

Has anything like disrupted your expectations or, you know, your previous feelings? That's a, that's a tough question because, surprise can go either way. I remember we occasionally do these polls with our Patreon backers like, hey, help us pick the game we're going to cover. And so we'll load those up with, you know, games of a kind. So earlier this year, we did like a like a action game kind of thing where we had like God of War. We had enslaved on there. And I was like, oh, I remember. Oh gosh, Soul Reaver. Legacy of K and Soul Reaver that like I think I played that or played a demo of it. It was reviewed really well. Let's just let's just throw that on there thinking, okay. It's usually the older ones don't do that well, but let's put it on. That was such a slog. And it's one of those things where it's like, whoa, everything I knew about this came from those reviews. And just it couldn't have been any any more different than what I expected in terms of just like quality, variety, pleasure to play any of those things. And it can work, you know, the other way too.

Like I had that experience of Soul Reaver and it was weird because I remembered enjoying it. and then sitting down and be like, I hate this. But then it can also happen where, you know, the show has gotten me to play things that, you know, either didn't totally seem at my alley or I always had kind of a vague curiosity about. And then I'm just surprised by how much I love them. Like, I think Cole and I had both just barely played Godhand at the time we did it for the show. And we're just kind of blown away like, oh, this is amazing. Like, this is really good. And that's another game that got like, you know, there's a really infamous like IGN review of that.

That's like a four or something like that. You know, that game was kind of hated in its time. But we were both just like, oh, this is why we do this show. This is like purely pleasurable. And I wouldn't have played this without the show necessarily. Yeah. Yeah, your episodes had definitely reassured me in some cases where it's like, I always felt regretful that I never played Soul Reaver, but then I heard that episode.

And I was like, wow, I might have enjoyed that when I was 16, but I don't know. I'm glad I didn't actually try to revisit that because it just sounds like a horrible slog. And also your Indigo Prophecy episode, we're brothers in arms in terms of our feelings on David Cage. And I was like, I was right to be disinterested in that game after that first chapter, after that really good first chapter. So I feel like I can work out some of my game anxieties through your podcast. Because I think we're mostly on the same page, although Gary does not like the Virtue's Last Rewards series as much as I do. Oh, yeah, yeah. You and me, Fispop, man. Well, so it's me and Bob versus Cole in the David Cage match.

Rage in the cage. Oh, right. And then it's cold and on. Yeah. Yeah. So. I don't, yeah.

I don't, I'm going to take that Frenchman down from off the top ropes. I tolerate it. Exclusive. So look for, uh, your coverage of Detroit in 10 years maybe. Who knows?

Watching the clock. Uh, the game, not the city. So I also want to know, uh, we get a lot of people who like the idea of podcasting listeners who want to try it for themselves.

And, um, again, I feel incredibly. spoiled. I was lucky enough to sort of fall into a show that I already had listeners, but what do you two think are the keys to developing a good podcast? Obviously, you really should get your, you know, episodes out on time, have regular schedule. My thoughts are you really need, there's like a bare threshold for quality that 90% of podcasts don't reach. And it really doesn't take a lot of work to reach that threshold. And once you're there, people will not turn off your show within five minutes. That's my take. Like, what do each of you think of what makes a good podcast. And how have you cultivated the duckfeed.tv network? Gary? Yeah. So you mentioned consistency, which is huge. I think patience is a really big thing. You know, there wasn't a secret for us. We never had like a tipping point. We just kind of were consistent and, and, you know, grew a little

bit every month until we kind of got, you know, semi where we're at now, semi big. I think a big thing, too, with podcast is to have some kind of hook for it. I think that there are probably, you know, enough podcast out there there are like what if four guys talked about video games um you know there's a lot of those so having some kind of

approach to it that is a little bit unique is always going to be something that it will attract me um even if your podcast ultimately is kind of personality based and you know it will live or die based on people kind of falling in love with the host and really enjoying hearing those individuals having some kind of hook will always get me to check something out as opposed to hey there's four guys and it's their gaming opinion and then they do you know, a news and et cetera, you know, unless I already like those people, that's a hard

barrier to cross. So I like a hook. You're right. I mean, there are so many of those four guys talking about games podcasts. And you know what? They're all in the top 10 slots in iTunes and they'll never leave. So it's an uphill battle trying to take them down. Yeah. I will never dethrone the fine men of dude soup, whatever that is. I know they're always number one. I've always been afraid to check. Yeah, I don't want to Google dude soup. Call me crazy. but the uh it is one of those things where uh those are really established right so you're always going to have like giant bomb it's always going to be this thing you know like that's always going to be there or like uh boy the names of some of some other ones are kind of

escaping me at this point like idle thumbs these these kind of uh conversational roundtable shows are really established and we're going to have this built in audience and you don't want to try to take them on on that you know the four guys you know kind of formula like they're there they're in the top 10th yeah trenched um You come from the sides. And, I mean, people do think we are popular, and I guess we kind of are for what we do. But, I mean, ultimately, we reach, like, number 30 in the top 100 rankings sometimes. Occasionally, we'll get up into the top 15, but that's pretty rare.

So, yeah, I mean, I would not be discouraged if you're not immediately a hit or if you can't, like, climb the list. But I think consistency is important. Finding an angle is important. Like you said, Gary, you're totally right about that. Cole, do you have anything to add? Gary stole my answer about consistency and patience. That is the answer we kind of always give when people ask about that stuff. I would say care about quality.

You know, don't just record into the microphone on your laptop or whatever, but don't let a lack of equipment get in the way of actually doing something because you can develop that alongside, you know, your gear acquisitions and things like that. um so don't don't feel like just because you don't have an expensive microphone you can't get started um is the thing that stuff matters um you know it's something that i personally take a lot of pride in our setup and our sound quality and all of that but like too many people have never started writing because they never felt like they have the right notebook you know oh wow yeah and real quick to add sorry to you know because it just made me think about something uh add to that is uh you know

care about what you're doing to you i think that if uh you're not if you have haven't picked a subject that's something you enjoy. One of the worst things that can ever happen on a podcast is when you listen and it's like, oh, man, all of these people have checked out. Like you can hear them looking at their phone, you know, like they,

you can know that they are not interested in the thing. It's four people in a room who are doing doing a job. You know, they more or less are doing a shift at a factory. So when, you know, when picking out that concept or whatever, pick something that you're going to be excited to do every couple weeks.

You know, and if you're not excited to do it, you know, maybe, like too much like work, it's going to, it's going to come through in the audio, I think. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, I do feel like a good mic is kind of essential, but you only need to spend like

$50 at the minimum to find an okay mic. And after that, you're good. And I feel like the way my brain works, if I spend money on something, I'm more committed to like following through. So I have every ROM ever made on my PC, but I won't actually play them until I, you know, pay money for it on the Wii. And then I'll be like, well, I paid for this. Now I know I have motivation to actually get my money's worth.

My brain is wired for capitalism. I don't know why. Yeah. It's a, so $50 is a different amount to a lot of people. People are notoriously, oh yeah, for sure. We're notoriously kind of reluctant to spend money on podcasting stuff. But like, think about it this way.

A $30 like plantronics like headset is going to be much better than your iPhone headset. The $50 like Samson Meteor is going to be good. The $80, Samson, C-O-U-3. I think this is what that is is going to be even better like there are those margin things you just have to find good enough and then like you know work until you can afford the next one

you know by use too yeah I mean it doesn't yeah you can do that too yeah and like I said there's a very there's a very very low threshold for quality there's just so much content out there and I think the things that clear that threshold are the ones that catch on because if you if you turn on a podcast and it's two guys having a Skype call

through like blown out headset mics with no editing you're just like you don't care about this. Why should I invest any time in this? It's like everything I say is funny, right? I'm like Kevin Smith. Wow, Kevin Smith burned out of nowhere. I'm sorry. I just turned off a lot of fans. I own clerks on DVD people. It's fine. So my final question for you guys is, I'm just curious. Maybe you don't want to give away any plans, but are there any games you want to do that you have in mind? And are there any of that seem insurmountable? I really wanted to do a Resident Evil 4 episode, but you covered it so thoroughly that I, I might have to wait a few years. And I love that game, and I'm going to revisit it because of your podcast because it just, I mean, and it made me remember just how perfect it is. And I knew, but it's just like, oh, God, I need to play this again. It's been five years.

What games are out there that you really want to try and what games are out there that you might not be able to just because they're too inaccessible, too big? I'm curious. Maybe Cole, you can start with this one. Yeah. So there are big games that I would like to cover, but I know I wouldn't want to inflict them on Gary. So, you know, we generally have to agree on the things that we're going to cover.

And so something like Final Fantasy 12. If we hit the goal for the Final Fantasy show, we're going to have to do that anyway. But I'm a huge fan of 12, but I know Gary isn't so hot on it. And I don't know that I would want to sign him up for 60 hours of that. I'm just curious, cool. Have you actually finished Final Fantasy 12? Yes. Okay.

It's strange because many people I meet love that game. but 10% of them have actually finished it, and it's kind of strange. Please continue, though. Yeah, no, I recognize it has his flaws, but that is kind of one of those ones that is in my, like, own personal. Like, I fell off of JRP's after like 2000,

and then I came back to that particular one in a big, bad way. But there are so many other games that I would rather do than kind of, like, you know, just kind of like slog through that, you know, because I know what I'm playing at. Gary is going to be like, oh, my gosh,

the license board, no. not to that that sounds incredibly passive aggressive but that is kind of a part of it right like i love that's a good personation i don't get passive aggressive at all i made you sound i made you sound like squidward no no but just uh i think that that that that's the bigger one right is a game that either of us personally really really like but there's probably something better or more appropriate to do in its place i mean that's no different than what i do do, when I choose topics, I try to do things that will, you know, get Jeremy engaged with the topic.

There's lots of stuff that are personal to me that I either do with laser time guys or by myself because I know Jeremy might not be as interested in looking into it or playing the game. So, yeah, I mean, I feel like having that, you know, invested interest in both of you is important. Yeah, like length is a really big one. We've kicked around the idea of doing a persona game for a long time, but they're very long, like specifically three or four. and like we both really like those games but they're huge and it would just be because we keep a regular schedule and we do our best to you know we beat i mean there's maybe five games that we haven't beaten that we've done for the show um so we try to you know actually play everything at the time and and that's uh that's really tricky um the other thing that comes up with things that we want to do that are a little bit harder are things where the scope uh is beyond us like there's something uh an aspect of the game that we don't have time to engage in um so we will sometimes indulge in that like we did a team fortress two episode

and neither of us are like that's a huge competitive game it's really deep happens with fighting games it would happen with something like rogue it would happen with something like like dwarf fortress things like that that would be kind of interesting but we don't have the expertise because the people who know those games really well haven't played them once they played them for years you know they're just they're just so deep and we'll do those from time to time we try to get some expertise in for those things

but it is we're reluctant to do those even if we might want to kind of take a plunge on them yeah uh see also like an mmo like a world of warcraft or something like that um oh yeah just going back through all the patch changes and all the the just the lost content would be impossible it's been like seven different games uh since it since it opened up and like regardless of how many like unofficial servers there are they're like launch era kind of things you're never going to cover it in enough in enough death because those aren't games those or hobbies within themselves. You know, just you kind of have to come at it.

You can't just put 25 hours into it and say, I did it. It just doesn't, it doesn't mesh with our approach. So before I let you go, I did want to talk for a minute or two about the Portland Retro Gaming Expo. In case you don't know, we were there and Watch Up for Fireballs was there, both doing panels. I've been there like four years in a row now. And I feel that it is sort of like retro gaming Christmas for me. me every year. It's like one of the best weekends of the year. I get to talk to everybody. I'm not

sure if you guys have as much of a good time as me because you're actually working, you know, for the entire weekend. I don't know, like, I'm not sure where I want to spin this, but wouldn't you encourage everybody, if possible, to come to the Portland Retro Gaming Expo? I mean, this weekend, this last weekend especially, I have never talked to more fans and more friendly people that are, you know, engaged with what I do, I think, in my entire life. And it was just a super rewarding weekend. for me. Yeah. Yeah. It is huge for us for like just kind of, you know, getting some ego bucks. You know, getting paid in kind of people saying nice things about us for the weekend. So that's really fantastic. But even for just people, like it is such a positive environment. They run it so

well. I think as far as conventions go that we've been involved with are ones that I've gone to you. They're really kind of top of the pops as far as organization. Keeping, you know, keeping things relatively clean, keeping people, you know, you don't walk around with a bunch of people like offensive of shirts and stuff like that. Like, it is a tight ship. It's very friendly. You see things that you wouldn't be able to see. Like, they just,

that arcade section always has like two or three things I've never seen before that are super weird. And then just the vendors have weird stuff I've never seen before either. So it's always, even before they actually opened up an official museum, which I really, I like that this year and I'm looking forward to that growing. It functions as kind of a museum,

uh, of just being able to see kind of retro oddities. Um, it is a, it is a great time. it's super fun yeah I have to say I do enjoy the fact that they're smart enough to for every year I've been there to have panels and actual rooms instead of like I mean you guys have just experienced this sometimes there's some weird planning involved with panels

I'm not going to hold it against the last show we went to because I'm sure they were learning to as we all are but the last panel I did before this one was like in the middle of a restaurant that was actively serving food and luckily luckily the recording came out okay, but I found it to just be very distracting. I didn't feel comfortable. But PRGE always has like very nice rooms and the acoustics are great. And I recorded the panel with a personal recorder and it sounds perfectly listenable. So in terms of working on that level, I really love Portland's Expo. Yeah. I was just going to say, we really lucked out that I happened to live here. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. We did this really, really early on. We kicked started our first

appearance there just because we had to pay for airfare. The podcast wasn't bringing any money. And if it had been in a town where we would have had to have doubled our airfare and both got flights, we might not have been able to afford it. Right. You know, so it's very lucky that, like, the best retro gaming convention just happens to be in the town I live in. Yeah. And speaking as somebody, you know, not from Portland, you know, flying in there from Cincinnati, it's a, it is a really friendly city to, like, get into and, you know, travel around, visit and kind of do all the touristy things. And especially over there with a bunch of, like, you know, like-minded people, there are plenty of cool places to do. like it is one of the friendliest cities I've been to in terms of just logistics, you know, even at

that barest level. I really drink more beer and play more pinball that weekend than any other weekend out of the year. And actually, I played, I played no video games because I was too busy talking to people at both of our little gatherings. And that was fine. It was like the most hands-on, you know, I guess that's kind of a creepy way to put it. I was actively touching everybody. No, it was, it was the most like kind of intimate personal, you know, encounters with fans I've had and just like talking with people for five hours every night was strangely more fun than playing a video game by myself. What?

No. Who to thunk? The social business could, yeah. I'm just out of myself as a fake gamer boy. But before we go, I want to say I'm a big fan of Watch Offer Fireball in the Duck Feed Network. You can hear me on some of their shows, look through the archives. They did an episode about Punch Out. We kind of did one at the same time.

It worked out in an unfortunate way. but they're both different enough that I think they're both worth listening to on their own for sure. And maybe you guys can tell us, where can we find your podcasts and what other stuff you do maybe? You can find us. We're at duckfeed.tv. That is the name of the network and also the URL where you can go. And that is a site that has a link to all of our individual show pages. All of those are on iTunes and such as well. And I want to just real quick before doing the plug stuff say that Cole and I are both, big fans of yours as well. Retronauts is, we're, I think there's maybe two episodes I haven't listened to, but I've

listened to almost every, every episode of that show. And I'm so glad that we are in a situation where we don't compete, like, we don't do the same kind of thing, because that would just feel gross since I'm such a big fan and friends with you guys. So I'm really glad that, it's very nice to hear you say that. And I'm glad that the feeling is mutual, and it's not, you know, me loving up against the wall. So for people who are listening to this on the Patreon feed, you know, everything

cool said is true. that's where you can find information about us. We're doing a charity live stream on the 11th that I want to plug that we do every year. Yes. On November 11th, for 48 hours, we are playing video games, doing other kinds of games and stuff to benefit transactive gender center. So if you're able to check that out, if you're hearing this on the Patreon feed, we'd love to have you watch and hang out and donate. It's a great cause. So if you're able to, that would be fantastic.

Awesome. Well, thanks so much for joining me, guys. I'll let you get back to the several thousand podcasts you put out every week. We're turning right around and recording a bunch more. That's awesome. Cool. I can't wait to listen to all of them. Ah.

Thanks, buddy. Thank you.