Retronauts - Retronauts Micro 85: 3D Sonic Mailbag

Episode Date: April 20, 2018

Thanks to the magic of planning, I (Bob) have scheduled three episodes in a row about 3D Sonic games. Earlier this week, we talked about Sonic Adventure, and next month we'll talk about Sonic Adventure 2. And as for this episode? Well, if you're one of those weirdos who reads the title last, allow me to inform you that this Micro is fully dedicated to YOUR thoughts about the 3D Sonic games. So sit back and relax as Henry Gilbert and myself read and respond to listener questions about Sonic's post-2D era. And look forward to a Sonic Adventure 2 episode in May. Or dread it. It's totally your call!

Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Retronauts Micro. Today's topic is the Sonic 3D Mailbag. I'm your host for this one, Bob Mackey. Who's across from you today? Henry's 3D blast, Gilbert. That's horrible, Henry. Hey, don't go into the gutter with that. We're going off into the negativity already.

Hello, everybody. It's Bob. And so I've put together a sort of theme of episodes over the next month or so. So we just had a Sonic Adventure episode. This is our Sonic Mailbag episode. And then in May I'll be launching a Sonic Adventure 2 episode, which we already recorded. And Henry's on that one too. But I'm doing this one.

because I want to hear from you guys about Sonic. I've received some feedback based on the Sonic Adventure episode. In my opinion, I thought I was fair and lighthearted. Some people thought I was cruel and spiteful. And I disagree with you, but I try to give these games a chance and I respect your opinions. And I also want to borrow something one of my favorite podcasts, We Hate Movie says. They say it's okay to like a movie. I say it's okay to like a game.

Just because they say something on a podcast does not make it the word of God. So if we disagree, that's cool. And it's fine, and I like to hear about it. But I don't hate Sonic. I don't laugh at the failures of Sonic. I'm just trying to have fun and be entertaining. And my last thing I'll say is if my negativity is played up for the sake of humor, please don't take it sincerely.

I'm trying to be entertaining. And that often involves exaggeration in hyperbole. And hopefully I don't sound too desperate with this preamble, Henry. I'm out here. I mean, I am a Mario fan and I do hate Sonic. Yeah, that we're talking. No, no, I also sometimes fear I come off as the, as the typical older Sonic Hater who is like, well, I play, I enjoy the 16-bit games, I hate every game after that. I'm old and my opinions are correct.

Like, I don't, I don't want to be that. I don't want to have an open mind. And yet, when I see old, when I watch old playthrus of Sonic game adventure or Adventure 2, I'm like, oh, this definitely sucks. Like, that still goes through my head and is my opinion. And my definite opinion is, for Retronauts listeners, you know, I love Mario Odyssey. Like, I think there is our Nintendo, among others, have figured out how to make great 3D platformers. And to a degree, I don't feel that Sonic Team ever did. That's fair.

I mean, that's an opinion you can disagree with or agree with. But I will say that on the Sonic Adventure 1 episode, I think I walked away from that episode with the statement that number one, it's a game I don't like. Number two, it's a game I think that is deeply flawed. But number three, it is a team that had to make a game in 10 months. Number four, it's a team making their first real 3D game ever, like real ambitious 3D game. So with all of that going for it, I understand why it is not the game I want it to be. And I think those people try it as hard as they can. And I think with every Sonic game that's even a bad game, there are people, honest, hardworking people that want to make a good one. Yeah, I don't

think they want to make a bad one and i think their investment too like they with a sonic adventure the first they must have had an impossible impossible expectations to meet because mario 64 crash bandicoot spiro all these games but especially mario his old nemesis those games set up what three-d platforming was and sonic basically ignored them unless you're going to bring up like sonic r or the Sonic Jam stage. So when Sonic would finally do it years after Super Mario 64, it would just be like, you're kind of late. And this can't, I've, I've been dreaming of what Sonics would be and this isn't enough.

But I will say before we begin, I hope I don't sound too defensive and I'm sorry if I brought any of you down. I'm just trying to be funny and I'm just trying to entertain. And if my negativity is played up for the sake of humor and that brought you down, I'm sorry. I'm just trying to have fun and just trying to make a fun podcast. and it's okay to disagree with me and if you're a Sonic fan

I do respect you I respect you too and Henry can attested this we recorded a Sonic Adventure 2 episode with a great guest who she loves Sonic Adventure 2 and we spent like an hour and a half talking about that game

so I feel like on that podcast we'll have someone that is younger than us and who grew up with Sonic 3D games as their first Sonic games I think it is a fair assessment of Sonic Adventure 2 and that that was a great guest to get Bob I loved recording that one as well

it's one of my favorite retronauts just to talk about a game that, like, I had kind of just buried and had negative nostalgia for, if anything, before we recorded it. Right, yeah, I mean, it's impossible for me to go beyond my... I was even jaded in my late teens playing that game, but it was nice to hear from someone who had the nostalgic childhood thing going on with a game that was, like, way after my own childhood. It was an interesting perspective.

So, yeah, I hope you guys will enjoy that one. But let's get into the comments. I set out a request for comments on the blog. We received a lot. So thank you so much for all of it. the comments. It was way more than I was expecting, so we won't be able to get through all of them, but if you left the comment, just know that I read it and enjoyed

it. So let's go to our first comment. It's from Ryan Johnson, who says, The first time I saw Sonic Adventure was a Toys R Us, pours one out. I was walking through the game section to get to an N64 game and was blown away by the graphics on display at that Dreamcast demo kiosk. I remember thinking that graphics could not get any better

as I watched Sonic Race and Orca. As a hardcore veteran of the console wars, I was predisposed to like Sega, but Sonic Adventure on Dreamcast De-radicalized me. Wow. The graphics don't hold up and the gameplay is largely crap,

but the first Sonic Adventure will always be tied to that jarring sense of technical progress I felt with the Dreamcast. And he is totally right. They had a good year on the PlayStation 2 and there was nothing that looked as good as a Dreamcast game in that tiny window of time.

That was the only edge they had and it really hurts them too that PlayStation was pretty quick in 2000 to get out. like look here's footage of a PS2 just wait for PS2 yeah and most people did and the promise of a DVD player but no you're totally right we went over this in the first podcast and that this was despite what it looks like today this was like jaw dropping because they were going for photorealism in 1998 with the first like very impressive pre-hd graphics so i feel like yeah that was a technical showcase and that's what got a lot of people on board sonic adventure yeah

that opening stage was incredible it just kind of went that as is the promise of most 3d sonic games you have a cool sonic stage to start it and then you settle into things that are not that stage the first stages are always the best and uh and sometimes the stages after that are actually good but uh in some cases it's not true uh henry you can get the next one nivomi says in the casino level in sonic adventure one there's a weird open concept shower room and you can take a shower why is there a shower room in this casino why is there a shower room in this video game version of a casino. What purpose does it serve? I think this is emblematic of what captures my imagination playing Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 as a kid. There's spaces in this game, in these games,

SA1, more so than essay 2, that are unnecessary, spaces that are without purpose beyond existing within them, and it's these spaces that stand out to me as I think about my time with these games. That's a really good point. The weirdness is what sticks with Sonic now, I think. It's really true. Even though the hub stages are not a lot of fun, they're quirky, and it's a space to explore. And I'll say one of my favorite games,

you can criticize all day and night, a deadly premonition. The gameplay is awful. It's incredibly buggy. But what I love about it are these just bizarre spaces you can explore that are very thought out in terms of what do the characters do in these spaces, and what can you find in these spaces, and what can you learn from them. And that shower room is pretty cool, because

I discovered it again when I was playing. I'm like, oh, this is neat. It has no purpose, but it's just like, a functional space in this game to create the idea of like oh this is a real place there's probably a gym next to it or something like that and as a loyal people can call me a Nintendo fanboy but I along my little brother I call on

the Genesis of Game Gear of Saturn and a Dreamcast and played all of them when they were new folks so give me my gold star but what I did love about Sega games as a whole was like they were very often weirder than Nintendo like even if I didn't like the gameplay as much as the standard Nintendo title though it varied

the weirdness and the quirkiness they embraced it a lot more than Nintendo would at the time in the 90s so I I do like when those bits of Sonic Adventure as well of just saying like well let's be strange like why not just build a random thing here yeah they took a lot of risks because Sega was like outside after the Genesis they were almost always on the brink of like financial destruction so like let's just try this try it right now just do it like there was not a lot of time to sit and think and refine ideas like Nintendo who has always been doing well even through their troubled times like GameCube and Virtual Boy and stuff like that. They always have something to fall back on. So Zachary Ian Walton says, I will not defend any of the games and the merits of their gameplay, except for Sonic Generations. Thank you, Zachary. I agree with you. But I will defend them as beautifully messy experiments. From Sonic Adventure's mixture of wildly different gameplay styles for each character to Sonic colors power up base levels. It's always going to be something different. To compare Mario to Sonic, I at least know each Mario title is going to meet a minimum level of quality and often exceed it in surprising ways. With Sonic, I have no idea what I'm going to get with each new entry, and that's kind of exciting.

Even if it's crap, I'll at least have an experience. And that's very true. I feel like even dipping into the bad Sonic games, bad Sonic 3D games, it's just fun to see what they tried, even if it's a failure. But I do agree Generations was like the least ambitious, but also the best playing because it was like, let's refine the best levels from all these 3D games. and then give you a lot of 2D levels as well. Yeah, by doing them again, they got to, it was something I appreciate about Sonic Generations as well, is that they, it was warts and all.

Like, no one would have, no one would have been mad if they didn't, if they had left out a stage from Sonic 2006, but like, no, we're going to do that. That's a Sonic game. They're not going to bury their history, but they should in that case. That's very true. But I don't think anyone will defend Sonic 2006. But I will say that I reviewed Sonic Generations for one-up

as just on a whim, like, yeah, you know what? I've never reviewed a Sonic game. I'll review it. And I walked away like, I liked a 3D Sonic game. Wow. So, yeah, I'm on record. The review is deleted from history, of course, because of one up. But I think I gave it a B plus, which is like, sure, yeah, it was a fun game.

And I really want to play Sonic Mania. I think we're going to be doing a podcast about that this summer, maybe. Oh, boy. So Randy Cox says, after the very public cancellation of Sonic Extreme, I lost a lot of interest in the franchise and Sega as a whole. Even so, it took only a handful of what. were then amazing-looking screenshots of Sonic Adventure to repair that rift. After an admittedly clunky opening boss fight, I played the first zone and it was truly an amazing experience, as this is what Naka and company had been trying to pull off when

making the inaugural Genesis Outing. Unfortunately, as I kept playing, I ran into gimmicks that kept getting in the way of my enjoyment. Hub worlds, wildly uneven gameplay modes, and an overly complicated story for a mascot platformer that had distractingly bad lip-syncing. The original series brought to me so much joy effortlessly, and this game brought along so many obstacles that the 3D series of Sonic Games has never truly fixed.

They have improved them, bettered them, but never truly fixed them. Like many people waiting for that great next-gen Sonic game, I was surprised that it turned out to be Sonic Mania, which would have been viewed as an enormous disappointment had been released in 1996. I don't know about that. It's been great to unabashedly praise,

a Sonic game without a litany of butts or Wells attached to it. It's very true. I have to say there's more negativity on this podcast. I'm sorry about that. But he's very right in that Sega was delivering on the promise that the Saturn era made, where it's like, you will get a 3D Sonic. They never delivered that. So there was just possibly too much riding on the idea of a 3D Sonic that they could never meet those expectations,

regardless of how well Sonic Adventure did in terms of like, how well it played, how well it looked and everything like that. Well, in the Saturn era, I don't blame Eugenaka and the Sonic team are not wanting to make a 3D Sonic themselves because if you saw Knights or Burning Rangers, those could not handle speed, those could not handle giant areas. It could not do the things a Sonic game needs to do. Like Knights technically is 3D, but not really.

And Burning Rangers actually is, but it's still, it's a very simple action game. Well, nights can be fast, but you're also on a 2D plane when you're playing those night stages. Until you get on the ground and then it sucks. Then you don't want to play the game. But the Saturn, the Saturn wasn't built to be a 3D machine. They only like shidly retrofitted it after they learned what a PlayStation was. And so I don't play Niji Nakkah for not making that. I do blame him for canceling Sonic Extreme because he had that clout to just say like,

these Americans don't get to make this. Yeah. And if you go back to our cancel game episode, like I said before, you learn about, we can tell you all about like the eight versions of that game, one of which was canceled by Yujunaka or one of which he just said no, you don't use the Knights engine. But at some point, I've said this before, it was clear that

Yuji Naka wanted to move on from Sonic, maybe because he was not the sole creator. He wanted something that was just wholly his and that was Knights. And unfortunately, that was not the Mario 64 killer or Crash Bandicoot killer. I mean, it's a great game. Yeah. And if you go back and play like the HD version,

it's fine. Don't play the Wii version. It's bad, bad reboots. I think I hate it on nights at the time i like nights fine but then i came to dislike it just because it was i didn't understand it for what it was supposed to be because of the advertising i'm not it's not just my fault but the advertising was like this is going to kill mario it's like well this isn't maria 64 number one it's definitely not better than maria 64 but two it's like why it's making me expect a arcade flight game that's about getting high scores and defeating your high scores to be super for Mario 64, a 3D platformer.

It's not that. And I believe what you were supposed to do in Knights was not as immediate as Mario or Crash Bandicoot. It actually took some time to have it click in your brain as to what all the combos meant, like what the actual point of the game was, because it's easy to just fly around and being like, okay, what do I do? Just go through these goals or whatever, but there's like, there's

like a strategy to do getting the combos and stuff like that that's not like immediately apparent. So Matt Banky says, personally I think Sonic can work in 3D. I just think Sega and Sonic team lack focus or rather. They just can't stick to one idea and polish it. They seem to be getting on the right track

with the daytime sections of Sonic Unleashed, then with colors of generations. Then they misstep with Sonic Lossboro after trying to address the issue of Sonic coming to a sudden stop whenever he hit something and trying to use parkour to keep the fast pace going, but the execution was flawed at best. Then they decided to have

Big Red Button create a Sonic spin-off, then not tell them it was exclusive to the Wii U. Even though the game they were making was made in unity, which the Wii didn't support, so the game ended up being a rushed, cobbled-together mess. And now we have Sonic Forces, which, while it isn't bad, just reeks of Sega trying to throw in as much stuff

to win fans over as possible, including a custom avatar for the player, and classic Sonic, who was shoehorn in and yet had no purpose to the game or its story, not to mention his segments were a big step down compared to generations. That's from Matt Banksy, and I think I agree, sorry, Matt Banking, you're not Matt Banksy. No one who, does he know who Banksy is?

Have you revealed Banksy right here? Oh my God, he's a Sonic fan, that explains everything. It does. No, I agree with you, and I feel like there's very much like I don't know who a lot about the Sega staff who makes these games but I know like the the main Sonic team guys

directed Sonic Adventure directed all the Sonic games up into Shadow and is now sort of overseeing and maybe if they gave this to like a new young team with new ideas maybe they could just

figure something new out because I feel like Sonic Mania it's not ambitious in any way really but it's just a bunch of young fans who love Sonic doing their own thing i feel like sonic mania got to be that by being unambitious and also probably not tampered with all that much it was probably it this is all assumptions by me i i will admit i am friends with someone who i think did PR for that game and they're cool people but i don't know

this stuff uh but it it definitely felt like a son a saga of america production that did not need to go through some hoops that you would with a saga of japan production perhaps and and also like the the staidness of it is from just the corporate structure especially in Japan it's it is a very like seniority based thing yeah you don't you never stop unless you cost the company a billion dollars and even then they just make you stand in a corner you don't get fire you don't get fire that's true i will say though it is funny how certain Sega franchises their fates have changed drastically so sonic it still does well but it's not really celebrated anymore this is great series, but I will say

Yakuza games, they have never stopped coming out since the beginning. Only like the weird spinoffs have not come out here. And only in recent years people have been noticing them and like praising them. Like I think Yakuza Zero and Kiwami and six, they've marked some new movement in terms of critical acceptance in

America for that series. And I can't wait for six. And I think that also came from Sega buying Atlas and learning how to properly sell a very Japanese game in America, which doesn't mean trying to make it something it's not to sell five million copies, but finding a way to make money off of it if you sell 500,000 copies instead. And I have been loving seeing the slow burn

that Yakuza has been getting in popularity in America. I'm really looking forward to playing six. I will admit, Yakuza Zira has been sitting in my pile of shame. Oh boy, I have about 130 hours logged in because you can play it for more than that, actually. Well, Yakuza 6, though, might be the one I finally play on day one because Japanese pro wrestlers are in it they are a gang in it in Japan guys for the first time it's actually made for the

the PS4 generation it's not also a PS3 game they finally cut it off finally after five years of the PS4 existing but I think Sonic team is its own weird fiefdom within that system just like the Yakuza team certainly is its own weird fiefdom but in a good way at least

for them but Sonic team I think too you hear that stuff about, I hadn't heard that part of the development of Sonic Boom, the development of Sonic Boom, that they had to shift it to Wii U out of nowhere. But that definitely feels likely to me that they just made a deal with Nintendo. Like, Sonic Boom should be on every system, but somebody above them made a deal for all Sonic games to be Nintendo exclusive for some years. And that just fucked them. But also, I don't think Sonic Team was all then invested in the success of Sonic Boom and letting somebody who's not them make a better Sonic game than they did.

Yeah, and it was based on a property they had really nothing to do with. I mean, it was like Americans or Canadians making, you know, a new Sonic cartoon. Yeah. Which I heard is actually funny and like meta and like clever and stuff like that. Now the games I've heard and in scene. I played one at E3 and it's not good. But I mean, it's just awful in a different way than Sonic Forces was. Yeah.

But I knew what they were doing charging 40 bucks for Sonic Forces. Oh yeah, yeah. They knew. But I did, I did want to point out that I love Yakuza, just in case you think I hate Sega games, because that's, like, the only other Sega series now that is still in existence. I think Virtual Fighter is the best 3D fighting games series. Like, I love those games. I don't give a shit about racing games, but I, Daytona USA, I love that game.

I played so much Fighting Vipers, so much Virtual Cop. And there are RPGs as well, like, Shining, the Shining series, I played a shitload of that. Yeah, like, Yakuza games are just like, the legacy of Sega RPGs, just becoming a new thing. They're just, they're just RPGs, basically. And it's, and it's making Shenmoo actually work. Yes. Which I was day one on Shenmoo.

Making Shenmoo good. Oh, yeah. Oh, 100%. You guys, don't hate me, please. We're shit. I'm telling you listeners now, if Shenmoo 3 ever actually releases, you're not going to like it. Like, get ready.

Do not get your hopes of it. I'll play it. I just want to see what it's like. I just hope that it actually comes in the being. Oh, you know, oh, oh. What's it like for you watching games of your son coaching. It's a family affair on attack each day, the Harbaugh's podcast. You know, I didn't know there was actual words here.

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I'm going to be able to be. Jake your booty says the most successful 3D adaptation of Sonic the Hedgehog is SSX3. Now look, there's a distinct lack of funky art deco checkerboard patterns and bird-powered robo-mas monsters in SSX, and the series has always been weaker for that. Aesthetically, it's no Sonic. For me, what makes classic Sonic, Sonic, though, is more about the momentum and the level design. forget all that stuff about speed Sonic's movement is defined by his inertia

He's hard to start and hard to stop Not unlike a snowboard on fresh powder or a patch of ice Sonic's zones aren't meant to be methodically combed over Like a secret dense world in Mario Every run can set you on a slightly different path Go low, go high, seek more rings Shave seconds off your time Sonic levels are sprawling

And almost every path is validating and SSX3 takes place on a twisting, turning mountain, packed with alternate routes that are yours for the charting. I'm trying to keep this from going too long. Whoops. So apologies for being vague. I will tell you, though, I'm right about this. Play SSX3 with Sonic in mind, and tell me the connection isn't there.

You'll see. You'll all see. My question, have you ever found that Sonic Spirit lurking in a non-Sonic 3D game? Now the tables of turn. Well, to address the SSX-3 thing, I totally agree with you. In fact, that that's a fantastic idea. And in the Sonic Adventure One podcast,

we talked about how they didn't put the camera behind Sonic because they could not convey the sense of speed. But every snowboard game does that. Like, that's why I loved snowboarding games while they still existed because you never felt like you were going faster and you never felt like you were in more danger. Like, I love SSX. That's totally right.

If they were to retrofit that idea around Sonic, it would be really a really good idea. I like that a lot. Sadly, only Mario. and friends got to start an SSX3. Oh, were they in that? They were in ASSX game. That was part of GameCube and the GameCube era EA games of like, please keep putting

EA sports games on here. We'll let Mario be in them. It might have been tricky or something because three was PS3 Xbox 360 and that would not have been on Wii. So this is before that. Yeah, these were the GameCube one. Same with Mario was in NBA Street. And Little Mac was in one of the Fight Nights games.

Oh, you're right. Classic. But yeah, no, I. I agree with it. I think that racing aspect of it, too, is why maybe Sonic didn't click with me entirely because I'm not the biggest racing fan. To answer his question to us,

the Sonic Spirit thing actually was one I recognize when we did the Yoshi's Island Retronauts, which I loved doing that. Yeah, yeah. And when I played it, I was like, this is their response to Sonic. I totally see it now. The crying Mario are rings.

Yeah. This has loop-the-loop running sections like this. And even the same inertia they, talk about is Yoshi of slow two start and now he's running really fast don't stop I didn't even think of that and I produced that podcast way to go I would say actually Mario Odyssey has a bit of Sonic Spirit

in that you could just start rolling Mario into a ball from a stop and just roll around a level like I think Nintendo understands like the Goron roll is very satisfying to do so they just like to put it in different games and that's basically Sonic spin and I love doing the Mario spin and then bounding out of it

like with his like it's great the flying jump forward I need to go back to Odyssey See, the other thing I will say that reminds me of 2D Sonic is Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze. It is like really fast-paced and really challenging with very sprawling levels, but I like it more than 2D Sonic games. And again, that was like Sonic Generations. I played it because I was like, I'll review this because I don't like Donkey Kong Country games. And I want to see if I like this. And man, it is great.

It's coming to Switch, right? Yes. Okay, yeah, don't sleep on that. It is so good. I just saw a really cool giff of, in the game, they added some new idle animations, which same with the spirit. Yeah. The idle animations, it has one of, it's D.K. and Ditty standing together. Then there's still, D.K. sits down, pulls out a switch, hands a controller to Ditty, and they start playing them together.

It's very cute. In fact, Diddy puts his switch hands in front of Donkey Kong's face and eyes. Like, it's very cute. Yeah, but I will say that's my endorsement for this episode. If you haven't not played it on Wii U, Tropical Freeze is great, and I don't like Donkey Kong Country games. I feel like they figured it out. finally figured it out, man, that game is so good. So, Kazin says,

I will defend Sonic Adventure 2. Katie was right when she said 2 is more focused than 1. The Sonic levels aren't as glitchy and I think have more interesting level design than one. The tails slash Eggman levels are extremely slowly paced but are fun to figure out how to get a high score on. If you just blow through them to get more Sonic levels, they're very boring.

I grant you. The knuckles slash Rouge levels would be better if they weren't so freaking huge. Boo. The one thing one did better than 2 was to have the scavenger hunt levels be small. That's it. Three gameplay modes, two of which are fun and one of which is not very fun, but has so bad it's good rap. Oh, yeah.

Way more focused than the first game, which felt like it was going in a million different directions with the Hub Zone and too many modes. The last level is terrible, though. I can't believe I got an A rank on all that level's missions. You have to play as every character and beating it quickly enough, especially on the knuckle slash ruse levels, is such a crapshoot.

It's amazing I bothered. Green Hill Zone, which you unlock for getting A ranks in every mission in the game, is so not worth it. So I think in our Sonic Adventure 2 We're like, if you got Green Hill Zone, please write in because you are like a superhuman. So we have at least one person who did. At least we've got proof it can happen. Well, I think we deal with pretty much all of this in the Sonic 2 episode.

But I guess, yeah, that, that, I mean, which would you, it's an interesting question of Sonic 1, Adventure 1 versus Adventure 2 is, do you want a real scattershot explosion of ideas and some are way worse than others? or you just want a few ideas but they get really samie and some are real bad. Yeah, I mean, we'll cover this in a month, but I will say, I said this on the podcast where we'll have out in a month, but I like, so Sonic Adventure 2, I think the level design is better, and I think it is a higher quality game because they had more time and they knew they had made a 3D game before it. My problem with it is you have to suffer through gameplay types you might not like.

With Sonic Adventure 1, you can just play the whole Sonic Story if you want and then opt out of everything else. And you have no choice. If you want the exotic one, you've got to beat this. You've got to chase the president's limo. And they are very stingy with the level types that you want, like the best level types. So, yeah, I feel like it is a real, like, there's no real good answer for me because they each have some serious drawbacks. Blargg says, I played numerous Sonic games since the Genesis years, relying on reviews to tell me whether they were worth my time or not.

Only one game made me quit a few levels in, Sonic Heroes, where I couldn't stand the constant chatter, and I realized I wasn't interested in the story. I've mostly avoided the many, many, many, well, I added one extra many there, the many, low points, like Sonic 2006, Sonic and the Black Knight, Sonic Boom and Sonic Forces. Boy, when you put it like that. Still, even the good entries have numerous problems. Sonic goes flying off the edges for no reason, or a homing shot. misses its target. Nearly all attempts to deviate from the high-speed frantic action central to the brand are middling at best.

I wonder how much better Sonic would have been if Sega would have just shelved lesser entries instead of releasing them in a broken state and insisted on a high-level quality before a Sonic game gets on store shelves. Hearing about former rival Nintendo's efforts with Mario 64 and Zelda Ocary enough time, there's a clear need to get it right before releasing it to the public. if only Sega had given Sonic the same commitment. That is very true. I mean, I feel like Nintendo has the luxury of doing that

where Sega is ultimately a less successful company in terms of their history. Yeah. So Nintendo has, so for the development of Mario 64 and Ocournianne of Time, both were delayed and the N-64 launch was delayed. The Super Nintendo was going very strong, and they had a lot of things to fall back on. And in Japan, they also had Pokemon, which was a huge phenomenon at the time.

so they had a lot of other money so they could be like, let's take our time with this and make sure we do it right. Sega, after the 16-bit era, they were always sort of up and down and they never really had that luxury.

They never had a Pokemon that would just give them money forever. Yeah, they could never have that. And so they depended on Sonic, but also they had, I'm certain they had smaller budgets than a Mario, a triple Mario game had as well. Like, I'm not saying Miyamoto or his team, IG Onuma,

doesn't have to think about budget, it, but if they say they need the money, they're more likely going to get it, then at Sega where they say, well, no, this has to be out in November and I don't care how much QA testing you think this needs. Yeah. And same with, I mean, even a lower, on a slightly tier below that, Metroid, Nintendo, they've shown, you've seen the tech stuff for it. They could have had a 3D Metroid game on the N64.

They didn't need it. And they're like, this isn't where it needs to be. we're not putting it out but for sega if they invest enough to get to a prototype stage they kind of have to make something right yeah they can't that the sunk cost on it it's not fair on that level to compare it though i'd say it's at least slightly more fair because sega invites invited that comparison all the time it's true it's true especially with the marketing of the console war era yeah i feel that with nintendo again they have the luxury of like we localize an entire game. I probably won't sell. Let's put that away. Or we finish an entire game. Oh,

you know what? We don't want to put that out. So like Nintendo, to their credit, they never really throw anything away for good. Like Star Fox 2 eventually appeared. Like certain things that were prototypes eventually become full games. Like I feel like they are always, yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's too. Yeah, that's too. So I feel like they, they always, they never really throw anything away. But again, Sega not having as much luxuries as Nintendo, they have to put out what they produce. Well, it also sucks for Sega, but it's a, it's, they shoot themselves in the foot every time. Like, you said, well, why didn't they have enough money on Dreamcast? Or why did they, why do they have to shove out Dreamcast as soon as possible and get out a

bad Sonic game? Well, because they put out a 32x and a Saturn and a Sega CD all at the same time, and a nomad, and a nomad all the same time, killing their own market, becoming their own competitor and completely fucking themselves. So that's why they had to do it And same with why is Sonic 2006 so bad? Because they said they had to have it out of the PS3 launch And they insisted upon that I guess ultimately Nintendo's very conservative nature

Gives them these luxuries that they have Even though some of these conservative ideas Are not great for their audience In terms of like the format of the games they make And in terms of like the hardware they make Like with the Wii you Which I still love but it was not the best system ever You can make fun of Nintendo for being two-stayed

but it has, it does have advantages that aren't obvious at first. So our final questions from Zach Adams, who says, I have a soft spot for Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 that absolutely does not prevent me from recognizing just how broken the games are now. But did at the time. My launch day Dreamcast in Sonic Adventure 1 were my first big purchase with my first college job, so it was very easy at the time for me to convince myself how awesome and sweeping the game was. I played it obsessively for about a month, bought the vocal album, wow, as an import,

and got in love Sonic Venture 2 as well as I ignored all the internet complaints. Then after I put my Dreamcast in storage, I never felt the need to touch them again until the PS3 re-release. I promptly decided that while there I probably decided that while there were a few memory triggers that made me really happy,

game design had passed them by and or I was more discerning and I never needed to play them again. That's from Zach Adams. Yeah. Yeah, I've had that moment with many a game or other properties of like, oh yeah, I love this game as a kid. Like, I love Kid Nicky the Radical Ninja. This game's the greatest. And then

I re-bought it when I was 20. I was like, eh, hmm, no, it's kind of weak. Kid Nicky's fine, but it's definitely, I also didn't realize there were so many, like, Chinese fables in Kid Nicky as well. That's really true, yeah. But enough about Kid Nicky. No, I had the same feeling with Sonic as well. And I feel like I'm hearing that a lot from people who have heard the Sonic Adventure one episode and from, like, guests that we've had on the show in terms of talking about these games. because even people who love the games growing up, they'll admit, like, well, here are all the problems, and I totally recognize them now.

But, again, there are certain things, if your brain is growing at the time you experience them, you have a sort of attachment to them that you can't break no matter how much you recognize the problems as an adult. And saying, like, we're all cursed by that. Like, we're, I am not, I am not immune to that at all. But, yeah, for me with Sonic Adventure, I was 19 or I was 17 when the first one came out.

And I was old enough to recognize, like, this may be pretty, but, ooh, Wolfarino, I'm going to play Soul Caliper. Yeah, let's put that in. And the number one thing I hear from people who were kids when these games came out is, like, I just played in the Chow Gardens all day. And that seems awesome. Like, I wish, like, if I had all the time when these games came out, I probably would have done that because it would seem like a really cool bit of functionality. But I didn't even bother learning how to do that stuff in the games. That's what my 14-year-old brother did as well, too. And he was, I don't know, maybe he was going through sexual awakening when he saw Rouge the Bat.

Oh, man. Not so much for me. So, yes, this has been our Sonic mailbag. Again, I'm offering an olive branch to you Sonic 3D fans. I'm not trying to be mean and spiteful. I'm trying to approach these games in an intellectual but also entertaining way. And I hope that you appreciate, you better appreciate, that I gave other people a chance to talk. It's not just me.

Some people don't like these games either, but there are people obviously who like them. And hopefully you'll get ready for our Sonic Adventure 2 podcast. We have a great guest, and she's going to tell you all about the games that she brought her own notes. she was so ready and it's going to be a great podcast for you listen to when it launches. Any final thoughts on this, Henry? No, I mean, I guess I apologize too if I come off as a Mario fanboy who hates Sonic,

which is me, but part of me does love Sonic too. I should also say like, I read the Sonic Archie comics for several years. Like, I enjoyed them. Yeah, I watched every cartoon. It's sort of like when people on other podcasts and on our podcast say Bob and Henry don't like Family Guy. I watched like 200 episodes of

family guy. Listen, I've lived the experience. Yeah, no, I have lived it too. I'm not, there are some things where I have just like an ignorant reaction of like, that looks dumb, bleh. But that's not me with Sonic. I feel like maybe it is me with Sonic was Sonic 2006. I was never going to touch that. But I feel like history is on my side for making fun of that game. And I mean, I think ultimately Nintendo's predatory marketing was much better at indoctrinating us. So that's why we're Nintendo fans. Totally. They indoctrinated me. Much more so. And in the Sega Genesis era, even though I was enjoying Sonic, I enjoyed the cuter, kiddier aspects to it as well that were like tails.

I loved tales more than Sonic. And I also, as I grew into being a 13-year-old who was like, well, this isn't as popular in their mainstream. So it must be the better one. That's how I was when Yoshi's Island came out. A part of her big, I think Yoshi's Island stands on his own is an incredible game. Oh, yeah. But also, I think a big reason I have a personal love for. it is because I was like, everybody thinks

this is the crayon game for babies. It's way better than Sonic. It's the thinking man's Mario. You enjoy your killer instinct. I'm going to play this. Oh, it's so good. Thankfully, we did an episode about that. So yes, thanks for listening, folks.

I have been your host, Bob Mackie. I will tell you about me later. Let's talk about Retronauts and how we do this thing. This is a Patreon-supported podcast. So if you go to patreon.com slash Retronauts and give at the $3 level, you can get every episode a week ahead of time at a higher bit rate and add free.

that is the ideal retronauts listening experience and you get like I think six to seven podcasts a month so it comes out to like 50 cents per podcast which I feel like is a good if you're willing to get 50 cents to get the better version without ads I feel like it's totally worth it

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we've been doing this now for almost five years independently we've almost hit our five year anniversary So thank you so much for supporting us. It's been a great ride. Yeah, it feels like it was only yesterday that I was announcing the return at Pax, Pax East. So, yeah. Wow,zers.

Man, that's awesome. Well, you know, I'm H-E-N-E-R-A-G on Twitter, and you probably hear me and Bob's voices a lot together because we host two other podcasts. That's true. We do Talking Simpsons, where we go through every episode of The Simpsons from the start, halfway through season seven at this point.

And we've had some awesome guests on, including guys like Dan, Reikert and Alex Navarro of Giant Bomb Fame and Virgil Texas and Matt Christman from the Chapo Trapphaus podcast. You can hear those in pretty much any podcast listening device or you can sign

up at patreon.com slash Talking Simpsons where you get to hear every episode a week early and at free along with a ton of extras that include Talking Futurama where we've been going through every episode of Futurama's first season and we just launched a new podcast called What a

Cartoon! Every week we discuss a different episode of a different cartoon in the Talking Simpsons treatment. We have clips. We go way into the history of everything. It's been a blast. We talked about things like Batman the Animated series, Renan Stimpy, King of the Hill, Stephen Universe, Kill the Kill. That's right. We're talking about anime, too.

And if you sign up at the $5 level, along with all the other bonus stuff, you get that a week ahead of time, and ad-free as well. And I'll tell you what, if you sign it for $3 and Talking Simpsons for $5 for the cost of a burrito, you will be up to your ears and podcasting goodness, my friend. It's more than worth it, I would say.

Throw that burrito in the trash, sir. It really, it really is. Look, I want your money, yes. Yes, give me your money. But it's because, give me your money. Now you're just saying me off at Stranger with Candyman. I know, sorry. But also, like, I love podcasts.

I support, I support retronauts, for example. I support tons of podcasts because I love them and I want all the content I can get. And I want to support people who are doing it full time. And that's, that's, I hope, how other people feel, too. Yes, please let us entertain. you. So thanks for listening, folks. We'll see you Monday for our brand new full-linked episode. Thank you, and I love you, Sonic fans. I love you so much. Life is full of those

moments, like right up to our first stretch and y'all in the morning. Or like standing in the forest alone amid the stillness, the beauty hits you like the crisp air, and suddenly everything makes sense, and you're one with the earth and stars. Or like dollar drinks at McDonald's. Keep those awe moments going with $1 any-sized McAfee-Brewed coffee and $1-0-0-0-0-6 drinks on the $1-2-3-dollar menu. Price and participation may vary cannot be combined with combo meal. The Mueller report.

I'm Ed Donahue with an AP News Minute. President Trump was asked at the White House if Special Counsel Robert Mueller's Russia investigation report should be released next week when he will be out of town. I guess from what I understand that will be totally up to the attorney. General. Maine, Susan Collins, says she would vote for a congressional resolution disapproving of President Trump's emergency declaration to build a border wall, becoming the first Republican senator to publicly back it. In New York, the wounded supervisor of a police detective killed

by friendly fire was among the mourners attending his funeral. Detective Brian Simonson was killed as officers started shooting at a robbery suspect last week. Commissioner James O'Neill was among the speakers today at Simonson's funeral. It's a tremendous way to bear, knowing that your choices will directly affect the lives of others. The cops like Brian don't shy away from it. It's the very foundation of who they are and what they do. The robbery suspect in a man police say acted as his lookout have been charged with murder. I'm Ed Donahue.